VR4: jumper or biwire?

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Johnny Y Boey

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Apr 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/12/97
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I would like to know:

1) do you biwire, or jumper?

2) why? heard any difference?

Thanks.

EL34

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Apr 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/14/97
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I bi-wire solely because I got another pair of cables for a good price
that were a notch up in quality from the same manufactuer and was go to
try bi-amping at the time. I only use one amp now, but use both sets of
cable because they are there. I don't like the idea of spending twice as
much on cable, so I would not have done this if I had only the one amp
and a good set of cable. I also don't like the cheap metal "strap"
jumpers. I think it would be best to use some short(6") real wire
jumpers with banana connectors to attach the two sets of posts and then
spades to a nice set of cables. This would eliminate that crumby
interface and cut your cable cost in half. I can hear the difference of
good cable vs cheap cable, but I doubt that I could tell two pairs from
one or ten or whatever. I think that once you get a good connection and
sufficient quality of cable to produce full frequency response at all
levels then any more would be wasteful.

Johnny Y Boey

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Apr 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/15/97
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But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.


JB

EL34

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97
to Johnny Y Boey

Johnny Y Boey wrote:
>
> But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
>
> JB
Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
money saved on the duplicate cable run?

Johnny Y Boey

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97
to el...@roanoke.infi.net


But my most important question is: whether biwiring will improve the
sound. I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have
put them that far apart.


JB

EL34

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97
to Johnny Y Boey

Johnny Y Boey wrote:
>
> I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have put them that far apart.
>
> JB
I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they
are in bed with a cable manufacturer. The reason they put the drivers in
seperate boxes, of course, had nothing to do with connections. The
Wilson speakers have terminals that far apart, but you can run the cable
through the back cover to the top. It is up to the user to decide how to
make the connections and with what wire. It is very trendy today to
bi-wire and I am frankly quite surprised to see that it has grown in
popularity. It may simply be due to the ignorance of the newer buyers
that see two terminals and are told by the dealer that they are
"provisions for bi-wiring". That is a common sales pitch. I would guess
that the profit margin on wire is quite substantial. In a more useful
and equally impractical way, they would be more suitably called
"provisions for bi-amping". I don't actually recommend that people go
out and buy two identical amps to power a pair of speakers, however. It
is interesting to see what effects combining different amps of differing
topologies has. I found that adding a tube amp to the top pair of posts
will greatly effect the sound as does switching from all solid state to
all tube. Many different possibilities are available in this regard as
to which amps are chosen and for what purpose. I have tried several
brands and types of wire with varying results, but have not been so
impressed with duplicating the same identical wire. As always, it's your
money.

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97
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EL34 wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> >
> > I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have put them that far apart.
> >
> > JB
> I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they
> are in bed with a cable manufacturer.

They are - isn't it silver sonic that they use in their VR-4.5's???

Jack W. Hart

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97
to Johnny Y Boey

Johnny Y Boey wrote:
>
> EL34 wrote:
> >
> > Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> > >
> > > But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
> > >
> > > JB
> > Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
> > terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
> > 3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
> > banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
> > whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
> > money saved on the duplicate cable run?
>
> But my most important question is: whether biwiring will improve the
> sound. I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have

> put them that far apart.
>
> JB

They DO recommend bi-wiring, as do most high-end speaker manufacturers.

Cheers,

Jack

Jeff Adams

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Apr 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/17/97
to

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:27:53 -0500, Johnny Y Boey
<jb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>But my most important question is: whether biwiring will improve the
>sound. I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have
>put them that far apart.

I'm sure they do recommend it (ok, well, I'd bet they do). But with
regards to how far apart they are, I suspect that was more practical
than anything. I'm guessing the crossover boards sit on the bottom of
their respective enclosures... Therefore, the interface point (speaker
posts) are a few inches from the bottom of each cabinet (woofer and
M/T).

I can remember being a little bothered by this at first... Anyway, I
do run biwired, but I haven't done any kind of conclusive testing
regarding the difference. Originally I had a run of MIT T2 (I think
that's right - if there is a t2 and t3, this is the "better" of those
two) going to the Woofer with a jumper of cheap audioquest
something-or-other (blue jacket, a couple maybe three solid core but
insulated runs of red and black wires) between the two (bananas). I
didn't like this from a mechanical standpoint, so I I added a separate
run of Esoteric Audio something-or-other (sorry to be so vague - it's
really thick, maybe 12 gauge, but nothing special) to the woofer and
moved the MIT to the M/T. Then finally, because I needed longer wires,
I made up pairs of 14 feet of the Esoteric Audio cable (I had this
stuff laying around for years, I didn't go buy it recently) using
cheap gold-plated Radio Shack spade lugs. Well, I think it sounds
better now (which I wasn't expecting). I'm not sure about the M/T, but
darned if I don't have more mid-bass punch (I'm the guy struggling to
get my VR-4's have that mid-bass punch I feel like I'm missing). I'm
still working with room positioning (my dealer, Elite Electronics in
San Jose, has been REALLY GREAT! We've talked with one of the
engineers, as well as Albert himself, trying to get me straigtened out
on this mid-bass punch thing - I'm still working it, I'll let you
know).

============CORRECT EMAIL address below===================================
| Jeff Adams (jeff....@gsc.gte.com) | GTE Electronic Systems Division |
| 415-966-2122 | Mountain View, CA U.S.A. |
| All opinions are mine and not my employer or internet access provider. |
==========================================================================

HEA...@ix.netcom.com

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Apr 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/17/97
to

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
>
> EL34 wrote:
> >
> > Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> > >
> > > I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have put them that far apart.
> > >
> > > JB
> > I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they
> > are in bed with a cable manufacturer.
>
> They are - isn't it silver sonic that they use in their VR-4.5's???

It's actually Audio Magic...but why does that suggest some sort of
unholy alliance??

Brian

HEA...@ix.netcom.com

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Apr 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/17/97
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Jeff Adams wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:27:53 -0500, Johnny Y Boey
> <jb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >But my most important question is: whether biwiring will improve the
> >sound. I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have

> >put them that far apart.
>

It's a very common complaint. I had to buy 4.5s to solve it.

Brian

Dana Bunner

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Apr 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/17/97
to

EL34 wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> >
> > But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
> >
> > JB
> Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
> terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
> 3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
> banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
> whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
> money saved on the duplicate cable run?

Let's see ... at 15 cents a foot for decent zip cord, saving
16' of cable would save me $2.40.

I'd probably go and blow it all on a hamburger.

:-)

Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't use zip cord in my main
system - I did blow all of $80 to purchase used, terminated
bi-wire Tara Labs Prism cable to run to my VR-4s. But in
any case, I wouldn't have saved much by using a jumper.

Dana

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

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Apr 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/17/97
to

HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
> >
> > EL34 wrote:
> > >
> > > Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have put them that far apart.
> > > >
> > > > JB
> > > I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they
> > > are in bed with a cable manufacturer.
> >
> > They are - isn't it silver sonic that they use in their VR-4.5's???
>
> It's actually Audio Magic...but why does that suggest some sort of
> unholy alliance??
>
> Brian

I never suggested an unholy alliance - I simply mentioned a fact that
there IS an alliance :)
Zip

Arny Krüger

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Apr 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/17/97
to


Dana Bunner <bun...@doit.wisc.edu> wrote in article
<33565C...@doit.wisc.edu>...


> EL34 wrote:
> >
This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
> > whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with
the
> > money saved on the duplicate cable run?
>
> Let's see ... at 15 cents a foot for decent zip cord, saving
> 16' of cable would save me $2.40.
>

I think you are tilting this argument outlandishly in favor of zip cord by
grossly understating the cost of appropriate zip cord. Anybody who buys
these speakers would use at least number 12 zip cord which runs around
$0.25-0.35 a foot depending on quantity. That would bring the savings be
$4.00 or more - a whole Value Meal at McDonald's. ;-)


EL34

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Apr 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/17/97
to Dana Bunner

Dana Bunner wrote:
>
> EL34 wrote:
> >
> > Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> > >
> > > But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
> > >
> > > JB
> > Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
> > terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
> > 3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
> > banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or

> > whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
> > money saved on the duplicate cable run?
>
> Let's see ... at 15 cents a foot for decent zip cord, saving
> 16' of cable would save me $2.40.
>
> I'd probably go and blow it all on a hamburger.
>
> :-)
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't use zip cord in my main
> system - I did blow all of $80 to purchase used, terminated
> bi-wire Tara Labs Prism cable to run to my VR-4s. But in
> any case, I wouldn't have saved much by using a jumper.
>
> Dana
In your VW, no doubt!

Morten Christiansen

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Apr 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/18/97
to

EL34 wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> >
> > But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
> >
> > JB
> Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
> terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
> 3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
> banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
> whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
> money saved on the duplicate cable run?

All this talk about banana just makes me go APE!

Best regards,
Morten

ae...@flight.els

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Apr 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/18/97
to

>They DO recommend bi-wiring, as do most high-end speaker manufacturers.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Jack

Here we go again with the speaker cable nonsense. I'm not picking on
you directly Jack, but..................

Speaker manufacturers include bi-wire capability on their speakers
mainly for one reason; to satisfy the supposed requirement that high
end speakers "should" be bi-wireable. Yes, some designs require it
because of the design itself, however they are there for utility
purposes, not for sonic benefit.

The high end market views bi-wiring as "necessary," so manufacturers
cater to this mentality for image sake. Even one of the questionable
folks at Stereophile complained about the Thiel CS7 having a single
set of binding posts. Give me a break!

Jim Thiel has designed some of the finest and most successful speakers
in audio, yet none of his designs can be bi-wired. The CS7 and CS5i,
which are arguably two of the best speakers on the market sonically at
any price, don't even provide bi-wire capability.

Gee, I wonder why? Could it be that perhaps it's not necessary?
Could it be that a world class designer like Jim Thiel realizes
there's no benefit? Makes one wonder...............................

===>


tar...@michiana.org

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Apr 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/19/97
to

ae...@flight.els wrote:

> Jim Thiel has designed some of the finest and most successful speakers
> in audio, yet none of his designs can be bi-wired.

Not quite true,
Early Thiels were bi-wireable. Used to have a pair of CS 3s. Funny thing was
the tweeter was seperated from the mid and wolfer rather than the tweeter
and midrange seperated from the wolfer.
Todd

HEA...@ix.netcom.com

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Apr 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/20/97
to

I think that's supposed to be "Wolpher".

Brian

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

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Apr 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/21/97
to

Greg Pavlov wrote:


>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> : > Johnny Y Boey wrote:

> : > >
> : > I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they


> : > are in bed with a cable manufacturer.
> :
> : They are - isn't it silver sonic that they use in their VR-4.5's???

> :
>
> I think you already know the answer to that Steve:

Sorry to dissappoint you Greg - I did not remember that. It has been
several months since I was terminated, a decision which they ought to
reconsider :)
Zip

--
Sunshine Stereo Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138
No 1 PASS & GALLO dealer in the US, Chiro, CODA, Straightwire,
ESP, NHT, Energy, NEAR, Parasound, Carver, Lightstar, Camelot
Technology,
Shakti, Audible Illusions, Quicksilver, Soundesign, No, 1 Audio Logic
dealer in the world :)

MGarrett23

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May 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/2/97
to

For the record, The wire used inside the VR-4.5 loudspeaker is Audio Magic
not
Silver Sonic. As far as bi-wire vs jumpers I have heard the VR's sound
quite good either way, however the quality of the cables being used on the
speaker made a much larger difference than the way it was hooked up.
Try it both ways see what you prefer. But a better set of cables run
single with jumpers may be the best value.

Mike Garret

Arny Krüger

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May 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/2/97
to

MGarrett23 <mgarr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970502015...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...


> For the record, The wire used inside the VR-4.5 loudspeaker is Audio
Magic
> not
> Silver Sonic. As far as bi-wire vs jumpers I have heard the VR's sound
> quite good either way, however the quality of the cables being used on
the
> speaker made a much larger difference than the way it was hooked up.

Bi Wiring is one of those thiings that are sort of hard to explain
technically. All the arguments for it I know of presume that copper is a
nonlinear conductor, which, for all practical purposes, it is not.


Jay B. Haider

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May 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/2/97
to

Arny Kr=FCger wrote:
> =

> MGarrett23 <mgarr...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19970502015...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> > For the record, The wire used inside the VR-4.5 loudspeaker is Audio
> Magic
> > not

> > Silver Sonic. As far as bi-wire vs jumpers I have heard the VR's sou=
nd
> > quite good either way, however the quality of the cables being used o=


n
> the
> > speaker made a much larger difference than the way it was hooked up.

> =

> Bi Wiring is one of those thiings that are sort of hard to explain

> technically. All the arguments for it I know of presume that copper is =


a
> nonlinear conductor, which, for all practical purposes, it is not.

What's the real difference between biwiring and using a single wire,
if the total amount of wire (AWG) is the same? =

=

-Jay

Arny Krüger

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May 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/4/97
to


Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<336A8E...@worldnet.att.net>...

What's the real difference between biwiring and using a single wire,
if the total amount of wire (AWG) is the same?

Nothing comes to mind, but I'm surely willing to have a biwiring proponent
propose a theory.


Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

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May 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/4/97
to

> Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
> <336A8E...@worldnet.att.net>...
> What's the real difference between biwiring and using a single wire,
> if the total amount of wire (AWG) is the same?

Arny Krüger wrote:
> Nothing comes to mind,

What a surprise :)

Arny Krüger

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May 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/5/97
to

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) <z...@netrunner.net> wrote in article
<336D1B...@netrunner.net>...

I notice your substantial technical contributions to this discussion, which
are zip.


Jay B. Haider

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May 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/6/97
to

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
> =

> > Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
> > <336A8E...@worldnet.att.net>...
> > What's the real difference between biwiring and using a single wire,
> > if the total amount of wire (AWG) is the same?

> =

> Arny Kr=FCger wrote:
> > Nothing comes to mind,

> =

> What a surprise :)

So what _is_ the difference between biwiring and using a single cable
of equivalent AWG as the two biwire cables?

-Jay

Arny Krüger

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May 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/7/97
to


Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article

<336ED0...@worldnet.att.net>...

So what _is_ the difference between biwiring and using a single cable
of equivalent AWG as the two biwire cables?

The only inherent benefit I can come up with is reliablility. If you have
mulitple connections, one can fail, and you will still have sound. In some
cases folks are "Bi Wiring" speakers with one set of input terminals or
leaving the jumpers in place, so if you loose one wire, you still have full
range sound.


Johnny Y Boey

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May 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/7/97
to


Don't know what you're talking about. You have to remove the jumper if
you want to bi-wire. Therefore, if one wire becomes loose, you will not
get full-range sound from that speaker.


JB

Johnny Y Boey

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May 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/7/97
to

ae...@flight.els wrote:
> Huh? Who says you HAVE to remove the jumper? What would prevent
> someone from running a bi-wiring scheme with the VR-4's, while still
> leaving the pigtail in place?


That's what you call a short.


JB

ae...@flight.els

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May 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/7/97
to

leaving the pigtail in place? It's not very intelligent, but it could
be done, and would work.

Jack W. Hart

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May 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/7/97
to
At least until the amplifier blew!

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

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May 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/7/97
to
> That's what you call a short.
>
> JB

No it is not, Johnny. Aero is correct. You can biwire with the jumpers
in place, but you lose some of the 'possible' or 'theoretical'
advantages of biwiring.
Cheers
Zip

--
Sunshine Stereo Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138

PASS, GALLO, Chiro, CODA, Straightwire, ESP, NHT, Energy, NEAR,


Parasound, Carver, Lightstar, Camelot Technology, Shakti, Audible

Illusions, Quicksilver, Soundesign, Audio Logic Cabasse

Arny Krüger

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May 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/8/97
to


Johnny Y Boey <jb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<33708E...@ix.netcom.com>...


> Arny Krüger wrote:
> >
> > Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
> > <336ED0...@worldnet.att.net>...
> >
> > So what _is_ the difference between biwiring and using a single
cable
> > of equivalent AWG as the two biwire cables?
> >
> > The only inherent benefit I can come up with is reliablility. If you
have
> > mulitple connections, one can fail, and you will still have sound. In
some
> > cases folks are "Bi Wiring" speakers with one set of input terminals or
> > leaving the jumpers in place, so if you loose one wire, you still have
full
> > range sound.
>
>
> Don't know what you're talking about. You have to remove the jumper if
> you want to bi-wire. Therefore, if one wire becomes loose, you will not
> get full-range sound from that speaker.

I dunno. My KEF Q15's are set up for biwiring and its possible to use both
the jumpers and do biwiring at the same time, particularly if you biwire
with spade connectors or bananna plugs.

In the case where folks biwire speakers like the NHT superzeroes, which
have only one set of input connectors, (which I allude to above), the
"jumper" is always in place.


Arny Krüger

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May 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/8/97
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ae...@flight.els wrote in article <337117c2...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


> >> Huh? Who says you HAVE to remove the jumper? What would prevent
> >> someone from running a bi-wiring scheme with the VR-4's, while still

> >> leaving the pigtail in place? It's not very intelligent, but it could
> >> be done, and would work.
> >
> >At least until the amplifier blew!
>

> How?
>
No way.

Now that Zip has admitted to biwiring with both ends of the bi wires
shorted together, we have complete proof that biwiring is about the same as
upping the wire guage, if that.


ae...@flight.els

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May 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/8/97
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Sebastien P. McIntyre

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May 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/12/97
to

On Wed, 7 May 1997, Johnny Y Boey wrote:

> Arny Kr=FCger wrote:
> >=20
> > Jay B. Haider wrote:
> >=20
> > > So what _is_ the difference between biwiring and using a single=20


> > > cable of equivalent AWG as the two biwire cables?

> >=20
> > The only inherent benefit I can come up with is reliablility. If you ha=
ve
> > mulitple connections, one can fail, and you will still have sound. In s=


ome
> > cases folks are "Bi Wiring" speakers with one set of input terminals or

> > leaving the jumpers in place, so if you loose one wire, you still have =
full
> > range sound.
>=20


> Don't know what you're talking about. You have to remove the jumper if
> you want to bi-wire.


Let's hear what you know about this...: Why?

To Mr. Haider's original question: No audible difference when
the cable used in single-wiring is appropriate to begin with
(i.e. with impeding characteristics in the transparency range),
as evidenced by reliable listening.
--
,
Sebastien

jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch

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May 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/13/97
to

In article <Pine.A32.3.91.970512...@mecapp1.meca.polymtl.ca> "Sebastien P. McIntyre" <s...@meca.polymtl.ca> writes:
>> Don't know what you're talking about. You have to remove the jumper if
>> you want to bi-wire.
Well, I've run an experiment where I did a blind test while adding and
removing the jumpers on a bi-wired set of decent loudspeakers that people
reccommend here once in a while.

The result?

"No audible difference".

No, the test wasn't biased. And the control (a .1dB loudness difference
due to long cable length) was easily detected.
--
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and like facilities granted. This notice must be included. Any use by a
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MACANDROC

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May 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/14/97
to

This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?

Johnny Y Boey

unread,
May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to

MACANDROC wrote:
>
> This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick.

what about tri-wire?


JB

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

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May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to

MACANDROC wrote:
>
> This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?


Then you are obviously ignorant of the setup requirements or the rear
layout of the Von Schweikert speakers. The rear terminals are about two
feet apart, virtually demanding the speaker be bi-wired.

The VSR speakers certainly sound better bi-wired, though others may not.

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

unread,
May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to Greg Pavlov

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:

> : MACANDROC wrote:
> : > This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?
> :
> : Then you are obviously ignorant of the setup requirements or the rear
> : layout of the Von Schweikert speakers. The rear terminals are about two
> : feet apart, virtually demanding the speaker be bi-wired.
> :
> No, that does not mean that one is "virtually demanded" to run an extra
> 10-20 feet of wire for each speaker rather than a 2.5 foot jumper.
>
> : The VSR speakers certainly sound better bi-wired, though others may not.
> : Cheers
> :
> I do not believe that. But I *do* believe that a lot more designer wire
> is sold on that premise: if one can be convinced that designer wire is
> "better", one can easily be convinced that two runs of it is "better" yet.

Frankly Greg, I don't give a hoot if you believe that or not. The fact
is that Biwiring VR-4's DOES make a difference, and I cordially invite
YOU here to listen & here for yourself :)

I do not sell a whole lot of expensive cables, I do not sell water
filled jackets, and light insulated wire (wow is that one ridiculous!)
and I don't sell wire with eliminators & terminators with 30lb aluminum
blocks.

By the way, Greg, do you own VR-4's? NO?? have you done the
comparison? NO????
I thought so!

Arny Krüger

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May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to


Greg Pavlov <pav...@niktow.canisius.edu> wrote in article
<5lf133$9...@niktow.canisius.edu>...
>
>
> :


> But I *do* believe that a lot more designer wire
> is sold on that premise: if one can be convinced that designer wire is
> "better", one can easily be convinced that two runs of it is "better"
yet.
>

In our audio club the joke is that "Bi Wire" is really spelled "Buy Wire".
I think Tom Nousaine brought that one in from the cold if not wind.

I have to admit that I've walked into high end shops and seen speakers like
the smaller Paradigms and NHT's bi-wired and had a hard time retaining my
composure.

When I say ROTFLMAO its not always an abstract concept!

Jack W. Hart

unread,
May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
>
> Greg Pavlov wrote:
> >
> > Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> > : MACANDROC wrote:
> > : > This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?
> > :
> > : Then you are obviously ignorant of the setup requirements or the rear
> > : layout of the Von Schweikert speakers. The rear terminals are about two
> > : feet apart, virtually demanding the speaker be bi-wired.
> > :
> > No, that does not mean that one is "virtually demanded" to run an extra
> > 10-20 feet of wire for each speaker rather than a 2.5 foot jumper.
> >
> > : The VSR speakers certainly sound better bi-wired, though others may not.
> > : Cheers
> > :
> > I do not believe that. But I *do* believe that a lot more designer wire

> > is sold on that premise: if one can be convinced that designer wire is
> > "better", one can easily be convinced that two runs of it is "better" yet.
>
> Frankly Greg, I don't give a hoot if you believe that or not. The fact
> is that Biwiring VR-4's DOES make a difference, and I cordially invite
> YOU here to listen & here for yourself :)
>
> I do not sell a whole lot of expensive cables, I do not sell water
> filled jackets, and light insulated wire (wow is that one ridiculous!)
> and I don't sell wire with eliminators & terminators with 30lb aluminum
> blocks.
>
> By the way, Greg, do you own VR-4's? NO?? have you done the
> comparison? NO????
> I thought so!
>
> Sunshine Stereo Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138
> PASS, GALLO, Chiro, CODA, Straightwire, ESP, NHT, Energy, NEAR,
> Parasound, Carver, Lightstar, Camelot Technology, Shakti, Audible
> Illusions, Quicksilver, Soundesign, Audio Logic Cabasse

I've listened to the VR-4's both with a "jumper" and bi-wired, both with
Cardas "Golden Cross" and the DH Labs "Silver Sonics," both of which are
EXCELLENT with the Von Schweikert's and easily out-performed the
"jumpered" configuration in dynamics, bass extension and soundstaging.
I didn't feel it necessary to repeat "the experiment" with the VR-4
"Silver Signatures" or the VR-4.5's, each of which surpassed their
"predecessors" in terms of detail, coherency, dynamics, musicality and
the bottom end.

This was not unexpected considering that Albert recommends bi-wiring and
I've obtained consistently better results bi-wiring speakers including
Theil's, Genesis, Dunlavy's and Martin Logan's.

Cheers,

Jack

Andrew Dudinsky

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May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to

For a VR-4.5 what amp would recommend? I have beem suggest PASS or Kerl.
Is it worth extra $$? Is there anytthing less money, that is still good?
I was considering a Bryston 4B.

HEA...@ix.netcom.com

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May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to

Arny Kr¸ger wrote:
>
> When I say ROTFLMAO its not always an abstract concept!

But it is always an unpleasant image, nonetheless.

Brian

Jack W. Hart

unread,
May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to Andrew Dudinsky
There are a number of amps that would sound wonderful with the VR-4.5's
including the Balanced Audio Technology VK-60, which I use, the Blue
Circle (of Canada) amps, Pass, Sonic Frontiers (also of Canada), Krell,
Rowland, etc.

Cheers,

Jack

Eddie Hou

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May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to

In article <5lfjup$g...@niktow.canisius.edu>, pav...@niktow.canisius.edu
(Greg Pavlov) wrote:

>
> I appreciate your reaction but I do not find the issue humorous. My
> Paradigm Studio 20's are set up for bi-wiring. They're very nice posts
> and very nice jumpers come with them. I would have much preferred to
> see a lower list price of $20 or so and not be forced to pay for other
> peoples' mysticism.

Nice posts and jumpers.... ooh, ahh.. ;-)

Just kidding- take it easy, Greg, you've been a good sport. That's
enough for me on this thread... :-()

-Eddie

Johnny Y Boey

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May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to

Greg Pavlov wrote:

> I appreciate your reaction but I do not find the issue humorous. My
> Paradigm Studio 20's are set up for bi-wiring.


Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.


JB

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

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May 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/15/97
to

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Jack W. Hart (jwh...@premier.net) wrote:
> :
> : I've listened to the VR-4's both with a "jumper" and bi-wired, both with

> : Cardas "Golden Cross" and the DH Labs "Silver Sonics," both of which are
> : EXCELLENT with the Von Schweikert's and easily out-performed the
> : "jumpered" configuration in dynamics, bass extension and soundstaging.
>
> The jumper wires were defective.
>

I doubt that his jumpers were defective, Greg.
However, your conclusions certainly are suspect :)
Zip
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

--

Johnny Y Boey

unread,
May 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/16/97
to

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey (jb...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> :
> : Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently

> : biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.
> :
>
> What do you think is responsible for the improvement ?
>


If I know for sure, I wouldn't have started this thread.


JB

Tom Melanson

unread,
May 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/17/97
to
In my experience with both VR-4's and 4.5's using a Krell 200S and XLO
Type 5, as well as High Wire 1100 & 700 series and Jenving Supra Ply
3.4, I found NO advantage to bi-wiring(speaker run was 10 ft) When using
an XLO Type 5 jumper the major difference came from hooking the amp
directly to the tweeter/midrange making sure it was not hooked up the
other way 'round. Isn't this hobby fun?
BTW, not to take anything away from those who like bi-wiring, but some
manufacturers (who shall remain nameless) will tell you that the
bi-wiring option is related to marketing NOT sonics) What say you, John
Dunlavy?
Tom

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

unread,
May 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/17/97
to Greg Pavlov

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> : Greg Pavlov wrote:
> : >
> : > The jumper wires were defective.

> : >
> : I doubt that his jumpers were defective, Greg.
> : However, your conclusions certainly are suspect :)
> :
>
> I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept the notion
> that the difference he heard was real.
>
Greg:
Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some
of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
maybe just was!) non-existant!
Cheers
Zip

Johnny Y Boey

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May 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/18/97
to

Arny Krüger wrote:
>
> Greg Pavlov <pav...@niktow.canisius.edu> wrote in article
> <5lhs8i$b...@niktow.canisius.edu>...

> >
> > Johnny Y Boey (jb...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> > :
> > : Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
> > : biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.
> > :
> >
> > What do you think is responsible for the improvement ?
> >
>
> I'll bet money its because he thinks he's "spent enough" that the alleged
> difference should be audible.


ignorance is bliss.

Arny Krüger

unread,
May 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/18/97
to

Sebastien P. McIntyre

unread,
May 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/19/97
to


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:

> MACANDROC wrote:
> >
> > This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?
>
> Then you are obviously ignorant of the setup requirements or the rear
> layout of the Von Schweikert speakers. The rear terminals are about two
> feet apart, virtually demanding the speaker be bi-wired.


From AVS's webpage, bi-wiring is only recommended, not required, so I
would imagine that bus bars are included, aren't they?
--
,
Sebastien

Sebastien P. McIntyre

unread,
May 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/19/97
to

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Johnny Y Boey wrote:

> Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
> biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.


Are you implying there's a design flaw in the crossover network
of the VR-4? [You may wish to retort that the listening leading
to that conclusion was not done in a _reliable_ manner :) ]

According to three speaker designers a friend of mine contacted
a year and a half ago, a _competently_ designed crossover makes
bi-wiring a futile gadget. And according to Edgar Villchur,
bi-wiring is inaudible since the 60's (if not earlier -- my
memory is failling me right now).
--
,
Sebastien

Sebastien P. McIntyre

unread,
May 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/19/97
to

On Sat, 17 May 1997, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:

> Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
> between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


> of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
> maybe just was!) non-existant!


If I were Albert Von Schweikert and you a VR dealer, that would be
enough ground to terminate you.
--
,
Sebastien

Johnny Y Boey

unread,
May 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/19/97
to

Arny Krüger wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey <jb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <337F31...@ix.netcom.com>...
> >
> > ignorance is bliss.
> >
>
> You presume I have never heard speakers that are VR4's or competitive with
> them.
>


So you have actually heard the VR4's? Did you act like a smartass and
comments about the biwiring, and got kicked out of the store?


JB

MACANDROC

unread,
May 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/20/97
to

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
:
: Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
: between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some
: of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
: maybe just was!) non-existant!
:

It would be good if someone from VS explained why this would be so.


I always wonder if the comparison is being done with two pairs of speakers
and two amps cause if it's done with the same pair of speakers, how do you
remember what you heard? And if it' s done with two amps or two different
pair of speakers, then how do you know they really sound the same under
normal conditions? Do you realize audiophiles never discuss how good music
sounds anymore? Isn't that what all the expensive equipment is for, to
listen to and enjoy music?

Sebastien P. McIntyre

unread,
May 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/20/97
to

On 15 May 1997, Greg Pavlov wrote:

> Arny Kr=FCger (ar...@pop3.concentric.net) wrote:
> :=20
> : In our audio club the joke is that "Bi Wire" is really spelled "Buy Wir=


e".
> : I think Tom Nousaine brought that one in from the cold if not wind.


From the cold (Canada) _and_ the wind (Chicago)...

"Wired Wisdom: The Great Chicago Cable Caper", Tom Nousaine,
Sound & Vision, Vol.11, No.3, 1995


> : I have to admit that I've walked into high end shops and seen speakers =
like
> : the smaller Paradigms and NHT's bi-wired and had a hard time retaining =
my
> : composure.=20
>=20


> I appreciate your reaction but I do not find the issue humorous. My

> Paradigm Studio 20's are set up for bi-wiring. They're very nice posts

> and very nice jumpers come with them. I would have much preferred to=20


> see a lower list price of $20 or so and not be forced to pay for other

> peoples' mysticism. I notice that my Atoms are not biwired; the compe-
> tition at that end of the scale is too intense to waste money on the
> additional hardware...


..."that has no direct effect on [perceived] sound quality."=20

-- Scott Bagby and Bill VanderMarel (Paradigm Electronics)

--
,
Sebastien Playing: "Ain't Afraid of Midnight" (_Howlin' Mercy_)
(The late) John Campbell=20

Johnny Y Boey

unread,
May 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/21/97
to


So what? I can hear a difference, and I'm happy. That's all that
matters.


JB

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

unread,
May 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/21/97
to

Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Johnny Y Boey wrote:
>
> > Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
> > biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.
>
> Are you implying there's a design flaw in the crossover network
> of the VR-4? [You may wish to retort that the listening leading
> to that conclusion was not done in a _reliable_ manner :) ]
>
> According to three speaker designers a friend of mine contacted
> a year and a half ago, a _competently_ designed crossover makes
> bi-wiring a futile gadget. And according to Edgar Villchur,
> bi-wiring is inaudible since the 60's (if not earlier -- my
> memory is failling me right now).
> --
> ,
> Sebastien

Lie number one: McInTIRED has no friends
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138
Gallo Acoustics, Cabasse, N.E.A.R., Energy & Veritas, NHT, Duntech,
DH Cones, Camelot, Audible Illusions, Kinergetics,, Carver, Shakti,
Sound Dynamics, NSM, ESP, Rega, PASS Labs, Parasound, Solid Steel,
Chiro, Quicksilver, CODA, Straightwire, Magnum Dynalab, Lightstar,
RoomTunes, Chesky, Reference Recordings,

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

unread,
May 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/21/97
to

Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:

>
> On Sat, 17 May 1997, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
>
> > Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
> > between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> > of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
> > maybe just was!) non-existant!
>
> If I were Albert Von Schweikert and you a VR dealer, that would be
> enough ground to terminate you.

McIntired:
Why don't you crawl back into your sewer. You are a moron on your best
days, on your bad days you give maggots a run for the money, and on your
worst day. you sit here with Freddie Kreuger. No doubt, AVS thinks you
are an idiot. He thinks more highly of you than we do :)

ae...@flight.els

unread,
May 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/21/97
to

Wake up and smell the roses folks. Bi-wiring doesn't do jack s**t.
If you go and spend a couple hundred bucks or so on an additional run
of cable, OF COURSE you're going to "hear" the difference. Otherwise,
you might as well spend another couple of hundred bucks in the butt
kicking machine.

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)

unread,
May 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/21/97