Tonearm recommendations
![Dal Farra, David [CAR:0W07:EXCH]'s profile photo](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a/default-user=s40-c)
Dal Farra, David [CAR:0W07:EXCH]
Looking for tonearm recommendations in the price range of the Rega
RB300. Are there any other worthwhile competitors at it's price point?
I'm looking to replace a Syrinx PU-2 Gold. Was a great old arm, but the
wiring is starting to go. Syrinx went belly up years ago and the arm
is not "rebuildable". It'll require micro surgery to re-wire. As
another option, anyone know a dependable (truly dependable) place to get
this service?
Thanks,
Dave
Sckott
still smelling like factory, but..
The Rega RB300 arm is the best anyone can ever do in the price point.
If you're very crafty with wire and simple careful tweaking, check
out:
http://www.hi-fi.com/diy/rega/
If anything, it offers an interesting outlook of a Rega RB300.
But nothing beats a Rega.
-Sckott
François Yves Le Gal
>The Rega RB300 arm is the best anyone can ever do in the price point.
A modified Rega RB-250 is vastly superior to a stock RB-300 for
approximately the same price.
SdW
>A modified Rega RB-250 is vastly superior to a stock RB-300 for
>approximately the same price.
Can you tell me in what regard, please?
--
SdW- "Garbage in, garbage out. And blurping inbetween."
Steve Zipser
says...
Roy Gandy says different - he designed both of them.
Zip
Trevor Wilson
"Dal Farra, David [CAR:0W07:EXCH]" <gpz...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote in
message news:39B508F4...@americasm01.nt.com...
> Howdie,
>
> Looking for tonearm recommendations in the price range of the Rega
> RB300. Are there any other worthwhile competitors at it's price point?
**Nope.
>
> I'm looking to replace a Syrinx PU-2 Gold. Was a great old arm, but the
> wiring is starting to go. Syrinx went belly up years ago and the arm
> is not "rebuildable". It'll require micro surgery to re-wire. As
> another option, anyone know a dependable (truly dependable) place to get
> this service?
**I don't, but they do exist. Re-wiring the PU2 is very tricky (I've done a
few), but it CAN be done. I like the Van Den Hul Teflon wire. It's strong
and sounds very good. The PU2 is a superior sounding arm to the Rega, IMO.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Sckott
The RB250 & 300 are designed radically different. The 300 can be
tweaked for a couple O bucks and solid as a rock if you're good with
some spit n glue (being facetious).
Besides, the step up to a RB300 is only a short leap (sometimes less
than $100) It's infinately best to have a Rega RB300 on board. There's
a lot that Rega takes pride in, and specifically, you will see that
they design everything with a certain philosophy; less parts, more
solid pieces all around. The Bias & Ely carts are a great example.
With the arm/cart relationship, it's obvious what you'll get; a piece
of equipment worthy of the praise it got for years.
I'm still getting used to my RB300. I don't think I'll rip into
tweaking it until I can "know" the difference from where I was, to
now.
If I found an RB250 for free or cheap, I'd be a happy guy.... but I'd
end up selling it :)
I wish my life was more like a Rega.
-Sckott
Steve Zipser
says...
> I purely disagree.
>
> The RB250 & 300 are designed radically different. The 300 can be
> tweaked for a couple O bucks and solid as a rock if you're good with
> some spit n glue (being facetious).
> Besides, the step up to a RB300 is only a short leap (sometimes less
> than $100) It's infinately best to have a Rega RB300 on board. There's
> a lot that Rega takes pride in, and specifically, you will see that
> they design everything with a certain philosophy; less parts, more
> solid pieces all around. The Bias & Ely carts are a great example.
> With the arm/cart relationship, it's obvious what you'll get; a piece
> of equipment worthy of the praise it got for years.
>
> I'm still getting used to my RB300. I don't think I'll rip into
> tweaking it until I can "know" the difference from where I was, to
> now.
>
> If I found an RB250 for free or cheap, I'd be a happy guy.... but I'd
> end up selling it :)
> I wish my life was more like a Rega.
>
> -Sckott
Francoise, into orbit. He thinks the RB-250 is a gift from on high.
Zip
>
> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:48:42 GMT, François Yves Le Gal
> <fle...@free.fr> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 04 Sep 2000 23:52:53 -0400, Sckott <ih...@nomail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>The Rega RB300 arm is the best anyone can ever do in the price point.
> >
> >A modified Rega RB-250 is vastly superior to a stock RB-300 for
> >approximately the same price.
> >
>
>
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc http://www.sunshinestereo.com Tel: 305-757-9358
9535 Biscayne Blvd Miami Shores, FL 33138 Fax: 305-757-1367
Conrad Johnson Spectron Parasound PASS Labs Gallo Acoustics Davis Seleco
Audible Illusions Straightwire Niles Oracle Graham Rega Benz-Micro EMT
Dunlavy Lexicon Volksamp VUTEC EAD CleanLines Monster RUNCO ESP PS Audio
Nakamichi Genelec Camelot Salamander Audio Logic PSB Panasonic Chesky
Autumn in New York means chestnuts, fallin leaves, & YANKEE BASEBALL
François Yves Le Gal
>The RB250 & 300 are designed radically different.
They are more or less the same design. With the *same* armtube, also
used by Rega for the 600 and 900 (OK, finishes are different).
From one of my earlier posts on tis subject
(http://x62.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=615189833&CONTEXT=968186557.714342413&hitnum=3),
correcting a couple of typos :
The 250 uses bearings fixed on two sides, with a plastic counterweight
coupling system; while the 300 - and the 600 and the 900 - use a one
sided bearing fixation, with a metal counterweight coupling system.
Furthermore, the 300, 600 and 900 use an inferior spring system to set
tracking force. The 300 uses a stainless steel mounting base, vs. brass
for the 250.
The bearings are slighly better for the 300 and up, but, according to
Rega, such improved tolerances don't bring any benefits (!). And they
don't because of the looser bearing coupling.
</SNIP>
A modified RB250 (with, for instance, the whole Origin Live set of mods)
sounds much better than a 300, slightly better than a 600, and is only
bettered by the 900.
I use a modified 250 on a custom TT and a P9 (fitted with a 900 as you
know). I've compared the stock 300 with the modified 250 on the same TT,
using the same cartridge. Have you done the same test?
François Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>Oh boy! Now you have gone and done it! You are going to send notre ami,
>Francoise, into orbit. He thinks the RB-250 is a gift from on high.
My first name is François Yves, not Francoise. And I don't think that
the RB-250 is a "gift from on high".
BTW, where are your facts and arguments ? Short of going ad hominem, and
displaying, once again, your poor knowledge of the products you
distribute, your post is as empty as a sales pitch.
François Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>Roy Gandy says different - he designed both of them.
Sure. He also says that VTA isn't important, that cables aren't
important and so on. Why do you sell $2,000+ interconnects, then?
Either Gandy is right when it comes to arms and cables, and you're a
crook selling overpriced pieces of wire.
Or he's just defending his turf, and you can also defend yours (and sell
all of the muy expensivo stuff you happen to like).
Oh, BTW, I don't sell gear, I use it.
George M. Middius
> I purely disagree.
Is that Krooglish? How does one impurely disagree? TIA.
George M. Middius
François Yves Le Gal
>Can you tell me in what regard, please?
More dynamic and fluid, better extension in the lows, more details and
less resonances, better tracking at the same weight (and you can measure
it !).
Check, for instance, TNT's test of the Origin/RB-250
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/olrb250_e.html
or the reprint of Hifi World test on OL website
http://www.originlive.com/tonearms.htm
Steve Zipser
says...
First you say:
> They are more or less the same design. With the *same* armtube, also
> used by Rega for the 600 and 900 (OK, finishes are different).
Then you say:
> Furthermore, the 300, 600 and 900 use an inferior spring system to set
> tracking force. The 300 uses a stainless steel mounting base, vs. brass
> for the 250.
And then you say:
> The bearings are slighly better for the 300 and up, but, according to
> Rega, such improved tolerances don't bring any benefits (!). And they
> don't because of the looser bearing coupling.
> </SNIP>
And then you say this - which does not jibe with the above:
> A modified RB250 (with, for instance, the whole Origin Live set of mods)
> sounds much better than a 300, slightly better than a 600, and is only
> bettered by the 900.
>
> I use a modified 250 on a custom TT and a P9 (fitted with a 900 as you
> know). I've compared the stock 300 with the modified 250 on the same TT,
> using the same cartridge. Have you done the same test?
Whoop tee doo!
I believe Roy Gandy over you
Zip
Steve Zipser
says...
> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:07:00 GMT, ab...@citroen.demon.com (SdW) wrote:
>
> >Can you tell me in what regard, please?
>
> More dynamic and fluid, better extension in the lows, more details and
> less resonances, better tracking at the same weight (and you can measure
> it !).
Pas de chance - in my experiences - I have only been using them for
twenty five years.
Steve Zipser
"George M. Middius" <glan...@ipo.net> wrote in message
news:e9karsgj0ctuunvjb...@4ax.com...
> Sckott said:
>
> > I purely disagree.
>
> Is that Krooglish? How does one impurely disagree? TIA.
George:
I think that is something that Krazy Kroo and AutoWiggy have been doing for
years ;-)
Zip
Stewart Pinkerton
>Looking for tonearm recommendations in the price range of the Rega
>RB300. Are there any other worthwhile competitors at it's price point?
Only the RB250...........
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is art, audio is engineering
Stewart Pinkerton
>On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:17:33 -0400, Steve Zipser <z...@sunshinestereo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Oh boy! Now you have gone and done it! You are going to send notre ami,
>>Francoise, into orbit. He thinks the RB-250 is a gift from on high.
>
>My first name is François Yves, not Francoise. And I don't think that
>the RB-250 is a "gift from on high".
No, your given *names* are Francois Yves. You never noticed the leetle
space, like the leetle space between your ears?
>BTW, where are your facts and arguments ? Short of going ad hominem, and
>displaying, once again, your poor knowledge of the products you
>distribute, your post is as empty as a sales pitch.
One basic argument would be that the more expensive Rega 600 and 900
arms are based on the 300, not on the 250. While the 250 has the
theoretically superior yoke vertical bearings, the 300 and its more
expensive siblings have a stronger structure, a superior
counterweight, and better dynamic stability due to the spring tracking
weight system.
François Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>And then you say this - which does not jibe with the above:
Huh? I must be tired, because I don't see a demonstration in your post,
just quotes and a conclusion. Waht do you mean?
>I believe Roy Gandy over you
Then you're a thief: you shouldn't sell so called "audiophile" cables,
as Roy the God has repeatedly stated on the record that such cables were
useless!
:-)
François Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>Pas de chance - in my experiences - I have only been using them for
>twenty five years.
Using what? Rega RB-300s? Tsk, tsk, it's a design from the 80s, you
can't possibly have used RB-300s for 25 years.
François Yves Le Gal
Pinkerton) wrote:
>You never noticed the leetle
>space, like the leetle space between your ears?
Me have noticed, bwana. Thank you, bwana. But bwana not familiar with
French first names, where there's usually a dash linking the parts of a
composite first name. My parents didn't use it, so my first name is
François Yves, my other given names follow... Now bwana understand?
>One basic argument would be that the more expensive Rega 600 and 900
>arms are based on the 300, not on the 250.
They are. But what's the point here?
>While the 250 has the
>theoretically superior yoke vertical bearings
Practically superior. Physics at work. You have to go to the 600 to
reach and equivalent level of rigidity, and to the 900 to better it.
>the 300 and its more expensive siblings have a stronger structure
The arm structure is the same, using the same alloy, the same cast and
the same everything save for the finish.
>a superior counterweight
Vastly debatable. The counterweight on the 300, 600 and 900 is a joke,
and some aftermarket upgrades, such as the "Heavyweight" from Express
Machining bring a substantial improvement with third party cartridges.
Pretty normal, as the stock counterweight has been optimized for the -
quite lightweight - Rega cartridges.
Have a look at http://www.expressmachining.com/, ask for a couple of
samples (RB-250 metal yoke and "Heavyweight"), try them, then get back
to the group with your findings...
>better dynamic stability due to the spring tracking
>weight system.
Vastly debatable, again. The improved stability is relevant only in a
few contexts, such as warped records or non-level turntables. The
drawback - much more resonances - outweight the improvements IMO.
Marc Phillips
>>I believe Roy Gandy over you
>
>Then you're a thief: you shouldn't sell so called "audiophile" cables,
>as Roy the God has repeatedly stated on the record that such cables were
>useless!
Roy Gandy also says that record cleaning machines are unnecessary, and that the
stylus tip should effectively move the dust out of the way! Do I believe him?
No...my experience tells me that cleaning records prolongs the life of my
vinyl, reduces surface noise, and improves the overall sound.
Do I think that Rega turntables are fine products? Of course I do...I've owned
two of their turntables and two of their cartridges. In other words, who cares
what Roy Gandy says, as long as he keeps making wonderful products at
affordable prices?
Boon
François Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>No...my experience tells me that cleaning records prolongs the life of my
>vinyl, reduces surface noise, and improves the overall sound.
So do I, and my VPI HW-16.5 is living proof of what a good cleaning
system can do.
>Do I think that Rega turntables are fine products? Of course I do...I've owned
>two of their turntables and two of their cartridges.
I use a P9/RB-900 as a secondary TT, and it's a damn fine piece of
equipment doing nearly everything right.
>In other words, who cares
>what Roy Gandy says, as long as he keeps making wonderful products at
>affordable prices?
Agreed.
Stewart Pinkerton
To be precise, 1986, hence 14 years max.
Stewart Pinkerton
>On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:23:38 GMT, pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart
>Pinkerton) wrote:
>
>>You never noticed the leetle
>>space, like the leetle space between your ears?
>
>Me have noticed, bwana. Thank you, bwana. But bwana not familiar with
>French first names, where there's usually a dash linking the parts of a
>composite first name. My parents didn't use it, so my first name is
>François Yves, my other given names follow... Now bwana understand?
Me heap familiar with hyphenated froggies, which why me say you have
two first names. Me not responsible for lack of brain running in
family Gal..............
>>One basic argument would be that the more expensive Rega 600 and 900
>>arms are based on the 300, not on the 250.
>
>They are. But what's the point here?
>
>>While the 250 has the
>>theoretically superior yoke vertical bearings
>
>Practically superior. Physics at work. You have to go to the 600 to
>reach and equivalent level of rigidity, and to the 900 to better it.
>
>>the 300 and its more expensive siblings have a stronger structure
>
>The arm structure is the same, using the same alloy, the same cast and
>the same everything save for the finish.
I wasn't talking about the arm tube, as is obvious from your own
admission of the superior rigidity of the more expensive arms.
>>a superior counterweight
>
>Vastly debatable. The counterweight on the 300, 600 and 900 is a joke,
>and some aftermarket upgrades, such as the "Heavyweight" from Express
>Machining bring a substantial improvement with third party cartridges.
Roy seems to be laughing at that joke all the way to the bank. Please
explain why a tungsten counterweight is inferior to steel.
>Pretty normal, as the stock counterweight has been optimized for the -
>quite lightweight - Rega cartridges.
Gee, imagine optimising your arm for your own carts - how bizarre.....
>Have a look at http://www.expressmachining.com/, ask for a couple of
>samples (RB-250 metal yoke and "Heavyweight"), try them, then get back
>to the group with your findings...
I don't need a heavier c/weight, nor do I see why anyone would think
that adding expensive tweaks is somehow going to make a Rega sound
better, just because you spent more money.........
>>better dynamic stability due to the spring tracking
>>weight system.
>
>Vastly debatable, again. The improved stability is relevant only in a
>few contexts, such as warped records or non-level turntables. The
>drawback - much more resonances - outweight the improvements IMO.
What resonances? They don't show up in any review I've ever seen, and
thanks for noting that it does do have advantages in the real world of
warped records.
Trevor Wilson
"Stewart Pinkerton" <pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:39b5de15....@news.freeserve.net...
>
> Roy seems to be laughing at that joke all the way to the bank. Please
> explain why a tungsten counterweight is inferior to steel.
>
**I reckon! If that arsehole had any idea of building a decent
counterweight, he'd be using depleted Uranium, like any respectable tone arm
manufacturer. Bloody cheapskate won't though.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Garthap
>I purely disagree.
>
>The RB250 & 300 are designed radically different. The 300 can be
>tweaked for a couple O bucks and solid as a rock if you're good with
>some spit n glue (being facetious).
The RB250 and 300 are not "radically different designs". The arm tubes are
identical and the horizontal bearing assemblies are identical although the 250
uses a less expensive brass mounting post vs. the SS of the 300/600.
The major difference between the two is the addition of the spring VTF
mechanism on the 300. To accomedate this the 300 has only one yoke vs.
the two yokes of the 250. As a result the 300 is supported on only one side
and the 250 has bearings on both yokes. The 300 is more or less "cantilevered"
or "hung" from the one yoke and if one were to look into the back of 300
after removing the CW stub you will see a bolt going through the arm tube.
The 250 has no bolt since it has bearings on both sides of the armtube.
This is what accounts for the greater stability of the 250, higher rigidity and
lower resonance. The 300 "may" have tighter toleranced bearings which is
more a result of the NEED for them.
All else being equal a 250 will outperform a 300 when both are equipped with
the 300 CW and stub and both are rewired with the same cable etc.
In stock form the 300 is probably a bit better due mostly to the superior CW
but does
have the disadvantage of the spring VTF mechanism.
I totally agree with François.
Garth
François Yves Le Gal
Pinkerton) wrote:
>Me not responsible for lack of brain running in
>family Gal..............
It's Le Gal, you're just demonstrating, again, that solder fumes can be
very damaging to your health and/or sanity.
>I wasn't talking about the arm tube, as is obvious from your own
>admission of the superior rigidity of the more expensive arms.
I won't dwelve into a lengthy dissertation on rigidity, bearing
couplings and so on. The arm is the same, the bearings are different,
and you need to go up to the 900 in order to better the 250. That's
simple, no?
>Roy seems to be laughing at that joke all the way to the bank. Please
>explain why a tungsten counterweight is inferior to steel.
I've never written that tungsten was inferior to steel, only that some
aftermarket counterweights, such as "The Heavyweight" are superior, both
objectively (measurably) and subkjectively.
>I don't need a heavier c/weight, nor do I see why anyone would think
>that adding expensive tweaks is somehow going to make a Rega sound
>better, just because you spent more money.........
The price of the Heavyweight is $80.00 or so. Not something I call
expensive. And, instead of "thinking", just test the mod: it's a 60
second job. Test it first, and then come back with something relevant.
>What resonances? They don't show up in any review I've ever seen
Then you don't have read the right reviews. I gave some references
earlier on, please check them.
Steve Zipser
says...
Regas in general, you twit. The 300 came out in 1985, I believe.
François Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>Regas in general, you twit.
Did you know that "Twit" is documented as being used for the first time
in 1528? Do you know that ad hominem attacks are prohibited by the
Usenet netiquette? Do you realize, that, once again, you're just
disparaging yourself and your business?
Oh, BTW, have you substantiated your opinion regarding Rega mods? Have
you tested any of said mods?
No, you haven't. You're just another of these resellers who don't know a
damn about their products, short of the margin they get. Too bad, as
Rega's excellent products deserve a better distribution...
>The 300 came out in 1985, I believe.
It's '86. I know. And regarding your 25 years of "experience", some
people are wrong for 40 years or so. Hang on for 15 more years...
Just another point : Rega was founded in 1973, and their first product
was the Planet, a tripod turntable. One of my friends still has one in
perfect working order (after replacing the motor and changing the belt -
same as the one used on the R2)... So real Rega experts have an
experience of 27 years!
George M. Middius
> Do you know that ad hominem attacks are prohibited by the Usenet netiquette?
Fortunately, ad borginem attacks have the full blessing of the
Usenet Authorities, whoever they might be.
George M. Middius
SdW
>In stock form the 300 is probably a bit better due mostly to the superior CW
>but does
>have the disadvantage of the spring VTF mechanism.
I use to set the tracking force with the counterweight,
instead of using the spring system.
Will this have any consequences for the bearings?
Is it better to use the spring , then?
--
SdW- "Garbage in, garbage out. And blurping inbetween."
François Yves Le Gal
>I use to set the tracking force with the counterweight,
>instead of using the spring system.
>Will this have any consequences for the bearings?
No. The bearings are fine. Just neutralize the spring system by setting
it at 3g, balance the arm, then apply the required dwonforce by gently
moving the counterweight. Listen to the difference...
bou...@my-deja.com
"Liberte" and free speech is an American concept, actually. They have a
long way to go in France on Usenet or elsewhere. They have gendarmes
all over the place.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
SdW
>>I use to set the tracking force with the counterweight,
>>instead of using the spring system.
>>Will this have any consequences for the bearings?
>No. The bearings are fine. Just neutralize the spring system by setting
>it at 3g, balance the arm, then apply the required dwonforce by gently
>moving the counterweight. Listen to the difference...
Thanks, I'll try this.
I thought "neutralizing" the spring would be at 0, but I read from
your post, the force on the bearings will be balanced when set at 3 ?
George M. Middius
> "Liberte" and free speech is an American concept, actually. They have a
> long way to go in France on Usenet or elsewhere. They have gendarmes
> all over the place.
They sure scared the crap out of Yahoo last week.
George M. Middius