Linn LP12 [what is this crap!
Javier Perez
Hi
Just a few thoughts
I finally did it. I went out and bought a used LP12. No doubt, the
result of peer pressure. It's cosmetically messy but mechanically sound.
The arm included is an LV-V Basik. Naturally I took it apart in order to
see what I had paid for. There was nothing inside that would indicate
superior design or build quality. The sprung chassis is a steel stamping
(Just like my old Tonkas) that can't be worth more than a few dollars.
the armboard is secured to it via 3 screws that can't locate it properly
until they are tightened down ie: they aren't countersunk like the
Thorens armboard bolts. Also, the location of the bolts is downright
stupid. There is no support except at the center, leaving the front and
rear edges of my board to sag after a few years of sitting there. The
wood grain finish with horizontal channels is nice. Big deal! There is a
pc board on the bottom which I beleive is the Valhalla board. Must be
some sort of wein bridge oscillator. Once again nothing special. I have
no complaints about the arm except that it's an s-arm with a headshell.
The platter is nicely made as is the spindle but the top chassis plate
seems to be sagging a bit, and the spring bolts were apparently
overtightened because the area around them seems somewhat pinched. I
wonder if this was caused by over tightening or IMPROPER DESIGN. The
motor mounting method is definitely not smart. The whole adjustment
depends on the 4 way flexing of a thin sheet steel mounting flange via 2
screws. I call it the mongo adjustment method. This is not all criticism
mind you, the table sounds real decent. I just don't think it's worth
anywhere near what they run for, and I only paid 329 for mine. Until
then all my turntables have been made by Thorens. I have a 124 125 and
126 and I can say without doubt that they are all better built and more
smartly designed than the Sondek. They also look better and sound at
least as good. Now the Linn on the other hand is built sort of like an
old english kit car... badly and yes, it looks... gawky. Can you imagine
a world where Lotus Europas and Marcos Mantulas went for $150K and
people bought them happily, plywood firewalls and all? That's what I
think when I look at the Sondek. Now I know why Linns are said to have
a distinctive sound. They're just built differently and therefore
resonate differently, The sound is of course different too but not any
better. I should have spent my money on a better arm and cartridge for
one of my old Thorens tables. My advice: Stay away from Linn unless you
can pick them up real cheap and if you do own one, don't look at it too
closely. Wow, I needed to say that.
see ya
Javier
The opininions expressed herein are mine
and I am not responsible for them.
Pinderz
>From: Javier Perez <ja...@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
Yep, welcome to world of hi-end. We boldly go where ever Stereophile tells us
to go spend our $$$. I too, almost bought a Linn until I spent some time with
a friend as he swore at his turntable. He spend over $3000 and finally sold it
about a year later...ma;ybe, I will get him to come over a post a few pages on
his experience with Linn products.
Bob
JSpence719
I have to agree at least in part to the opinions in this thread. I have tried
to use Linn tables before myself and the adjusting of them is a pain in the
ass. I did like the sound of the table after the lingo supply and a k5
cartridge, but I'd rather have a VPI. I just feel that they are built a bit
more soundly.
Walter Tice USG
In article <34DA81...@cunyvm.cuny.edu> ja...@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes:
>Hi
>My advice: Stay away from Linn unless you
>can pick them up real cheap and if you do own one, don't look at it too
>closely. Wow, I needed to say that.
>Javier
Quite so, the Cirkus, Lingo, maxed out Linn is a better table the the
Ariston RD-11S, but a stock Ariston RD-11S is (was) a better table at
a fraction of the cost. Even the maxed out Linn in no match for the
VPI Mk IV, let alone TNT Series. One of the silliest cult items of
all time in a hobby rife with them.
W
David J
I am familiar with the Analog Room, and I find it very unlikely that
Brian enabled you the time, and or room to do a full blown Turntable
Shoot Out. In addition, " the other people in the listening room who
preferred the sound of the Linn ", where in the Sweet Spot were they
sitting.
Brian's rooms are not the largest. Great store though.
But bear in mind that what Jason states above is an OPINION, and not
a FACT.
PS: You can't be all bad since you like Trick Of The Tail - Great Disc.
David
Jason C. Cotton
ti...@hunch.zk3.dec.com (Walter Tice USG) writes:
>Quite so, the Cirkus, Lingo, maxed out Linn is a better table the the
>Ariston RD-11S, but a stock Ariston RD-11S is (was) a better table at
>a fraction of the cost. Even the maxed out Linn in no match for the
>VPI Mk IV, let alone TNT Series. One of the silliest cult items of
>all time in a hobby rife with them.
And now for the other side of the story:
I took my Linn LP12 with Ittok LVII arm and Sumiko BPS cartridge down
to The Analog Room in San Jose to explore the possibilities of uprgading
the arm and cartridge several months ago. I purchased the arm and
table used for $850 in 1987 and have had troublefree service from them
ever since. At some point, I pumped another $500 to get the Valhalla
power supply and general upgrades done, and the cartridge cost
me roughly $300. Total investment: ~$1,650.
Anyway, Brian at The Analog Room seemed to think the Graham 2.0 arm
might be my best ugrade, and I eagerly set off to hear it. Unfortunately,
due to time constraints, I wasn't able to hear the Graham on my (or
anybody's) LP12, but instead got to audition it on the shop's VPI TNT.
I think we listened to a couple of different cartridges on it, including
the Benz Glider, but my memory is vague. Both of the cartridges cost
at least $750, however. If you added up the cost of table, arm, and
cartridge in the VPI system, it was somewhere between $7-9K.
The source material consisted primarily of my box set of Richter's
Brandenbourg Concertos on Archiv (highly recommended), and an Eberhard
Weber platter from the 70's on ECM. I also brought "A Trick of the Tail"
by Genesis to test bass and dynamics.
To make a long story short, I found the sound from my Linn setup to
be FAR more involving musically than what I was hearing out of the
VPI. People talk about Linns not being accurate, but my experience
that day was that my setup was also more true to the sound of live
instruments (I play electric bass and drums, primarily).
I don't want to get into some kind of Holy War here. For the folks
who prefer the VPI sound, I say go for it.
But bear in mind that what Walter states above is an OPINION, and not
a FACT.
-Jason
p.S. I wasn't the only person in the listening room who preferred the
sound of the Linn.
Stewart Pinkerton
David J <dj...@pacbell.net> writes:
>I am familiar with the Analog Room, and I find it very unlikely that
>Brian enabled you the time, and or room to do a full blown Turntable
>Shoot Out. In addition, " the other people in the listening room who
>preferred the sound of the Linn ", where in the Sweet Spot were they
>sitting.
>
>Brian's rooms are not the largest. Great store though.
>
>But bear in mind that what Jason states above is an OPINION, and not
>a FACT.
Also bear in mind that Walters original comment is more relevant. An
Ariston RD11S can be found at lower cost than an early Linn, and is a
superior turntable, having a much more solid substructure than the
LP12. It has the same 'single-point' main bearing, which was invented
by Ariston and 'borrowed' by Linn.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is art, audio is engineering
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>David J <dj...@pacbell.net> writes:
>>But bear in mind that what Jason states above is an OPINION, and not
>>a FACT.
>Also bear in mind that Walters original comment is more relevant. An
>Ariston RD11S can be found at lower cost than an early Linn, and is a
>superior turntable, having a much more solid substructure than the
>LP12. It has the same 'single-point' main bearing, which was invented
>by Ariston and 'borrowed' by Linn.
FYI, I've never seen or heard an Ariston turntable, so I wouldn't
know how it compares to a Linn. Since Walter seems to think that
VPI tables are clearly superior sonically to Linns, and I do not,
I'm not sure how relevant *I* find any of his "original comments".
This has no bearing on my opinion of Walter, whom I find to be
one of the more interesting writers on this NG. Sometimes people
just like different things.
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
David J <dj...@pacbell.net> writes:
>I am familiar with the Analog Room, and I find it very unlikely that
>Brian enabled you the time, and or room to do a full blown Turntable
>Shoot Out. In addition, " the other people in the listening room who
>preferred the sound of the Linn ", where in the Sweet Spot were they
>sitting.
The other "people" (who was, in reality, a gentleman who was there
to pick up a new VPI Jr.) were allowed to sit in the central chair,
exactly where I had been sitting. Furthermore, where I sat or stood
in the room had no impact on my perceptions as to which turntable
was clearly more to my liking.
>Brian's rooms are not the largest. Great store though.
Why would you like it, if you find it hard to imagine that someone
considering a $2-3K+ expenditure would be afforded a comfortable
listening session?
>But bear in mind that what Jason states above is an OPINION, and not
>a FACT.
No, what I stated (other than my opinion of the sound of the turntables)
was FACT. If I had said "You strike me as a presumptuous twit", that
would have been an OPINION.
>PS: You can't be all bad since you like Trick Of The Tail - Great Disc.
Why was I "all bad" in the first place?
-Jason
John Mah
Jason C. Cotton wrote:
>
> ti...@hunch.zk3.dec.com (Walter Tice USG) writes:
>
> >Quite so, the Cirkus, Lingo, maxed out Linn is a better table the the
> >Ariston RD-11S, but a stock Ariston RD-11S is (was) a better table at
> >a fraction of the cost. Even the maxed out Linn in no match for the
> >VPI Mk IV, let alone TNT Series. One of the silliest cult items of
> >all time in a hobby rife with them.
I'll let you two duke it out over the LP12/VPI. I'm neutral (having
never heard an LP12).
> And now for the other side of the story:
>
> [snip]
>
> Anyway, Brian at The Analog Room seemed to think the Graham 2.0 arm
> might be my best ugrade, and I eagerly set off to hear it. Unfortunately,
> due to time constraints, I wasn't able to hear the Graham on my (or
> anybody's) LP12, but instead got to audition it on the shop's VPI TNT.
> I think we listened to a couple of different cartridges on it, including
> the Benz Glider, but my memory is vague. Both of the cartridges cost
> at least $750, however. If you added up the cost of table, arm, and
> cartridge in the VPI system, it was somewhere between $7-9K.
Be aware that Brian is also now a Linn dealer... for strictly analog
(none of that multi-room A/V home theatre cra... umm, stuff).
Also, Graham now has a 2.0L arm ('L' for Linn) which apparently has been
hot-rodded and tuned just for LP12s.
> [snip]
>
> To make a long story short, I found the sound from my Linn setup to
> be FAR more involving musically than what I was hearing out of the
> VPI. People talk about Linns not being accurate, but my experience
> that day was that my setup was also more true to the sound of live
> instruments (I play electric bass and drums, primarily).
In my experience, his room(s) sound different then mine. No two rooms
will ever sound the same, and people have differing opinions (thus this
newsgroup) on what sounds 'right'. Subjectively speaking, everytime I
visit (often -- since he does sell records) and listen at the AR, his
rooms keep getting better.
> I don't want to get into some kind of Holy War here. For the folks
> who prefer the VPI sound, I say go for it.
>
> But bear in mind that what Walter states above is an OPINION, and not
> a FACT.
Agreed.
> -Jason
>
> p.S. I wasn't the only person in the listening room who preferred the
> sound of the Linn.
- John
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)
Jason C. Cotton wrote:
>by Ariston and 'borrowed' by Linn.
>
> FYI, I've never seen or heard an Ariston turntable, so I wouldn't
> know how it compares to a Linn. Since Walter seems to think that
> VPI tables are clearly superior sonically to Linns, and I do not,
> I'm not sure how relevant *I* find any of his "original comments".
Jason:
I had an Ariston RD-11 Superieur, and it absolutely BURIED the Linn
LP-12 sonically.
Zip
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc
Tel: 305-757-9358 Fax: 305-757-1367
9535 Biscayne Blvd.
Miami Shores, FL 33138
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Chiro Benz Micro Gallo Acoustics Dunlavy Audio NEAR NHT
Cabasse Niles Zenith INTEQ Crystal Vision Straightwire
Rega Cleanlines by Vans Evers ENTECH by Monster Cable ESP
And a whole lot more :-)
Steve & Gigi want you to ENJOY THE MUSIC!
DO NOT USE COMPUSERVE
THEY RIPPED US OFF FOR TWO YEARS SERVICE
They told us to take a hike
NEVER USE COMPUSERVE
Jason C. Cotton
"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> writes:
>Jason:
>I had an Ariston RD-11 Superieur, and it absolutely BURIED the Linn
>LP-12 sonically.
>Zip
Hey, bully for you!
It's a shame I'll probably never get to hear one. Until I do, I
have no way of knowing whether your assessment holds any water or not...
for me.
-Jason
Stewart Pinkerton
It was a pretty widely held opinion in Scotland (where they're both
made) in the early '70s, that the Ariston was the better turntable. Of
course, the 'wee Glaswegian Jew' was most certainly the better
salesman and businessman, and the rest is history................
Of course, if you *like* the distinctively coloured sound of the Linn,
then clearly no other TT will be an acceptable substitute, for you in
your system.
Jeff Bernhard
Stewart Pinkerton (pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk) wrote:
: An Ariston RD11S can be found at lower cost than an early Linn, and is a
: superior turntable, having a much more solid substructure than the
: LP12. It has the same 'single-point' main bearing, which was invented
:
I recall the bearing designs were different, the Ariston's platter bearing
interface was a ball/flat and the Linn's a hardened point/flat interface
(don't know if I explained that very well, or how significant it might be).
I sold a few Aristons, long ago (in my college days), and felt it was a
superior table, but never directly compared it to a Linn. Rumor was that
the Linn was better sounding, but I don't really know. The Ariston was
a very nice table, though. Better than the Thorens TD-125, which we also
handled. The Fons and (later) Strathclyde STD were also highly touted,
but again I don't know how these should be rated one to the other. They
all seemed to come from the same neck of the woods -- somewhere in Scotland.
I don't know for which of these (other than the Linn) could parts be found
should repairs be necessary.
--
Jeffrey Bernhard at Concurrent Computer Corp. (expressing his opinion only!)
Jeff.B...@mail.ccur.com Voice: (954) 973-5496 Fax: (954) 977-5580
Sture Jonsson
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> It was a pretty widely held opinion in Scotland (where they're both
> made) in the early '70s, that the Ariston was the better turntable. Of
> course, the 'wee Glaswegian Jew' was most certainly the better
> salesman and businessman, and the rest is history................
Maybe a bit like Mr. D'Agostino then ??
On the other hand, several things have changed since the '70s, and who is to
say that Ariston would have kept their alleged superiority in performance ?
> Of course, if you *like* the distinctively coloured sound of the Linn,
> then clearly no other TT will be an acceptable substitute, for you in
> your system.
Now this is very interesting. What do you mean by "distinctively coloured
sound". Is this some sort of "fact" that is supposed to be believed just
like that, or is it your opinion ?
For me the "distinctively coloured sound" of the Linn LP12 happen to match
the "distinctively coloured sound" of a live performance much better than
the other "high-end" tables I have listened to.
Just for the record: I have not listened to the Ariston.
/Sture
"If it sounds better it is better"
Stats
Stewart Pinkerton (pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk) wrote:
> : An Ariston RD11S can be found at lower cost than an early Linn, and is a
> : superior turntable, having a much more solid substructure than the
> : LP12. It has the same 'single-point' main bearing, which was invented
> : by Ariston and 'borrowed' by Linn.
Hey thanks for "seconding" a purchase I made last year. I
picked up a very good condition Ariston RD11S with a Grace
707 tone arm for $200. Currently using it with a Shure
V15 Type IV, but may be moving on to an AT ML150 soon. It
does sound very nice, for a turnable :-).
Dana
Steven R. Rochlin
Stewart Pinkerton,
> > Of course, if you *like* the distinctively coloured sound of the Linn,
> > then clearly no other TT will be an acceptable substitute, for you in
> > your system.
Stewart. Have you taken careful measurements of this turntable?
Which cartridge did you use? What did you use as a reference for the
recording in which you did the measurements? Please let us know and
share your wisdom.
Enjoy the music (Louis Armstrong on new MoFi CD pressing right
now),
Steven
"Yes, give me a kiss to build a dream on
And my imagination will drive upon that kiss
Sweetheart i ask no more then this
A kiss to build a dream on"
--
Cheap tweaks, recommended music, fun articles, WCES/MES Reports,
tube lust page, turntable lust page, and much more.
No advertising, RealAudio and .mp3 music files.
It's the www site your mother warned you about.
Jason C. Cotton
Sture Jonsson <sture....@lu.erisoft.se> writes:
>Now this is very interesting. What do you mean by "distinctively coloured
>sound". Is this some sort of "fact" that is supposed to be believed just
>like that, or is it your opinion ?
>For me the "distinctively coloured sound" of the Linn LP12 happen to match
>the "distinctively coloured sound" of a live performance much better than
>the other "high-end" tables I have listened to.
Sture,
After reading this "fact" from Stew at least a dozen times whenever
the words "Linn turntable" arise, my pet theory is that he decided to
buy stock in Ariston (and not Linn) and has been "Stewing" ever
since... :-)
His dislike for Tiefenbaum could not be more thinly veiled.
Every dog has his day, though!
-Jason
p.S. The above is mostly tongue-in-cheek.
Stewart Pinkerton
Sture Jonsson <sture....@lu.erisoft.se> writes:
>Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>
>> It was a pretty widely held opinion in Scotland (where they're both
>> made) in the early '70s, that the Ariston was the better turntable. Of
>> course, the 'wee Glaswegian Jew' was most certainly the better
>> salesman and businessman, and the rest is history................
>
>Maybe a bit like Mr. D'Agostino then ??
>
>On the other hand, several things have changed since the '70s, and who is to
>say that Ariston would have kept their alleged superiority in performance ?
>
>> Of course, if you *like* the distinctively coloured sound of the Linn,
>> then clearly no other TT will be an acceptable substitute, for you in
>> your system.
>
>Now this is very interesting. What do you mean by "distinctively coloured
>sound". Is this some sort of "fact" that is supposed to be believed just
>like that, or is it your opinion ?
It's well known, and generally admitted even by Linnies, that the LP12
has a 'warm' lower midband and heavy (I'd say bloated!) bass, which
makes it possible to concoct a good LP-based system with the LP12, but
one into which it is very difficult to insert any other neutral
source, since such a source will tend to sound thin and hard. And gee
whizz, most folks think Linn electronics and speakers sound thin and
hard, and most Linnies think CD sounds thin and hard! Most of the
other high-end tables have a clean and neutral sound, the Linn is
noticeably different. I've never heard this 'sonic signature' denied
by Linn owners, although of course they claim the Linn is more
'musical' because of it................
>For me the "distinctively coloured sound" of the Linn LP12 happen to match
>the "distinctively coloured sound" of a live performance much better than
>the other "high-end" tables I have listened to.
Fine, that's most likely because your system is aligned to the LP12,
but whatever, nobody is knocking your preference. I do not share your
opinion, being more of a GyroDec kinda guy.
>Just for the record: I have not listened to the Ariston.
Not many people remember it...........
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>Sture Jonsson <sture....@lu.erisoft.se> writes:
>
>>Now this is very interesting. What do you mean by "distinctively coloured
>>sound". Is this some sort of "fact" that is supposed to be believed just
>>like that, or is it your opinion ?
>
>>For me the "distinctively coloured sound" of the Linn LP12 happen to match
>>the "distinctively coloured sound" of a live performance much better than
>>the other "high-end" tables I have listened to.
>
>Sture,
>
>After reading this "fact" from Stew at least a dozen times whenever
>the words "Linn turntable" arise, my pet theory is that he decided to
>buy stock in Ariston (and not Linn) and has been "Stewing" ever
>since... :-)
I never had any financial interest in either Ariston or Linn, and I am
not alone in my characterisation of the 'Linn sound'. Like it or
loathe it, the Sondek is most certainly *not* a neutral-sounding
turntable, even Linnies don't claim that it is.
>His dislike for Tiefenbaum could not be more thinly veiled.
I resent that remark. My dislike for the Tiefenbruns (both Jack and
Ivor) has *never* been veiled, it's naked distaste!
OTOH, I do my very best to avoid this clouding my judgment of the
actual sound of the products, and in fact I quite like the Keilidh,
and I very nearly bought an Ittok. Personal distaste for sharp
business practices aside, I have never cared for the LP12 (and I was
very much around when it was first launched in 1971), and none of the
innumerable band-aids which have been applied over the years (to feed
the never-ending hunger of Linnies trying to make the flimsy hunkatin
work!) have solved the basic problem - it's badly designed, and the
only decent bit of engineering in it was stolen from Ariston.
Stewart Pinkerton
jeffb@amber (Jeff Bernhard) writes:
>Stewart Pinkerton (pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk) wrote:
>: An Ariston RD11S can be found at lower cost than an early Linn, and is a
>: superior turntable, having a much more solid substructure than the
>: LP12. It has the same 'single-point' main bearing, which was invented
>: by Ariston and 'borrowed' by Linn.
>:
>I recall the bearing designs were different, the Ariston's platter bearing
>interface was a ball/flat and the Linn's a hardened point/flat interface
>(don't know if I explained that very well, or how significant it might be).
>I sold a few Aristons, long ago (in my college days), and felt it was a
>superior table, but never directly compared it to a Linn.
Early Aristons had the single-point bearing, the prototypes for which
were made in the precision machine shop owned by Jack Tiefenbrun.
Jack's son Ivor then patented the design and used it in the LP12,
there was a big court case, and Linn won the case, proving that
Justice is not only blind, but pretty dumb on occasion......
After that fiasco, Ariston used a conventional ball and thrust pad
bearing.
>Rumor was that
>the Linn was better sounding, but I don't really know. The Ariston was
>a very nice table, though. Better than the Thorens TD-125, which we also
>handled.
Humph, I'll have to disagree on that one, since I used a TD-125 for
more than ten years. The standard mat sucked, but once replaced, the
TD-125 was a really nice deck, IMO.
>The Fons and (later) Strathclyde STD were also highly touted,
>but again I don't know how these should be rated one to the other. They
>all seemed to come from the same neck of the woods -- somewhere in Scotland.
All from the Glasgow area, as is Dunlop (Systemdek). The Syrinx arm
OTOH came from Edinburgh!
Stewart Pinkerton
"Steven R. Rochlin" <enjoyt...@top.monad.net> writes:
>Stewart Pinkerton,
>
>> > Of course, if you *like* the distinctively coloured sound of the Linn,
>> > then clearly no other TT will be an acceptable substitute, for you in
>> > your system.
>
> Stewart. Have you taken careful measurements of this turntable?
>Which cartridge did you use? What did you use as a reference for the
>recording in which you did the measurements? Please let us know and
>share your wisdom.
Yech! You think I'd have an overpriced piece of bent tin like a
*LINN* in my house? I have never measured a Linn Sondek, lots of
others have. OTOH, I have of course had the dubious pleasure of
hearing innumerable Sondeks with assorted arms and carts over the last
twenty five years, from Grace/Supex to Ekos/Arkiv. Surely you are not
suggesting that the LP12 does *not* have a characteristic 'sonic
signature', to wit a warm lower midband and loose, heavy bass? This is
common knowledge, and has never varied, unless you change to a
radically different mat.
Hands up anyone who thinks the Linn sounds like a GyroDec, VPI, Basis
or SME.....................
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>It's well known, and generally admitted even by Linnies, that the LP12
>has a 'warm' lower midband and heavy (I'd say bloated!) bass, which
>makes it possible to concoct a good LP-based system with the LP12, but
>one into which it is very difficult to insert any other neutral
>source, since such a source will tend to sound thin and hard. And gee
>whizz, most folks think Linn electronics and speakers sound thin and
>hard, and most Linnies think CD sounds thin and hard! Most of the
>other high-end tables have a clean and neutral sound, the Linn is
>noticeably different. I've never heard this 'sonic signature' denied
>by Linn owners, although of course they claim the Linn is more
>'musical' because of it................
*I'm* denying it right here on RAO. Just think, now you can never
say you've never heard anyone deny it. :-)
>>For me the "distinctively coloured sound" of the Linn LP12 happen to match
>>the "distinctively coloured sound" of a live performance much better than
>>the other "high-end" tables I have listened to.
>Fine, that's most likely because your system is aligned to the LP12,
>but whatever, nobody is knocking your preference. I do not share your
>opinion, being more of a GyroDec kinda guy.
Cut the crap, Stew. You think Linns suck, and that their owners are
misguided Pagans. Not that that bothers *us* all that much. :-)
BTW, my current system was selected entirely by auditioning CDs, yet
the Linn sounds just fine through it, thank you.
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
No cigar, Chief.
First of all, a Linn LP-12's "sonic signature" will vary tremendously
depending on where it's placed, what arm/cartridge/phono preamp one
employs, how well it's been set up, etc. I thought the table was
slightly bass SHY for years until I installed a different cable
from the PIB box on the back to my phono stage. I started getting
really low, yet definitely not *bloated*, bass.
BTW, when I changed to a DNM Ringmat, the sound did come into focus more,
so at least you've said one thing that coincides with my experience.
Finally, for all the blather about being a flimsy piece of tin, mine
has held up flawlessly for over 10 years (and I bought it USED), and
shows no signs of not easily going another 10. I believe it's also
cheaper (perhaps significantly so) than the other tables you've
mentioned. And I wouldn't trade mine for a VPI anything.
-Jason
"Music is Art, Audio is Numbers."
d.v.n.
Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message <34e28b16....@news.dircon.co.uk>...
>Humph, I'll have to disagree on that one, since I used a TD-125 for
>more than ten years. The standard mat sucked, but once replaced, the
>TD-125 was a really nice deck, IMO.
I like a tweaked up TD-160 more!
d.v.n.
Sander deWaal
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:35:46 GMT, pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote the following:
>
>Of course, if you *like* the distinctively coloured sound of the Linn,
>then clearly no other TT will be an acceptable substitute, for you in
>your system.
While the Linn LP 12 is known for it's troubles in setting it up,
when this is done properly, it's not "distinctively" colored, IMO.
Given your recent discovery of the antiskating knob on your RB-300,
after years of use, there's the possibility that the Linn you heard
(or possibly own) , wasn't set up properly............. :-)
_
Sander deWaal
postm...@pegasus.demon.nl
______________________________________________________
Many real strides in technology and new inventions
came from backyard scientists and garage engineers,
hobbyists and tinkerers, et al. (Gabe Velez)
______________________________________________________
Sture Jonsson
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> It's well known, and generally admitted even by Linnies, that the LP12
> has a 'warm' lower midband and heavy (I'd say bloated!) bass, which
> makes it possible to concoct a good LP-based system with the LP12, but
> one into which it is very difficult to insert any other neutral
> source, since such a source will tend to sound thin and hard.
Hmmm..... I have friends who use Linn turntables (not the LP12 but the Axis)
with other electronics and it doesn't sound bloated. And the Axis doesn't sound
that much different, sonically, in the Linn systems I have heard it with, than
the LP12 does.
On the other hand, I have heard many other turntables with a much more "wobbly"
bass than even a simple LP12 (without Circus, Lingo, Linto, etc. etc.).
Oh well.....
> And gee
> whizz, most folks think Linn electronics and speakers sound thin and
> hard, and most Linnies think CD sounds thin and hard!
I have friends who use Linn electronics with other sources, and it doesn't sound
thin and hard.
Oh well.......
> Most of the
> other high-end tables have a clean and neutral sound, the Linn is
> noticeably different. I've never heard this 'sonic signature' denied
> by Linn owners, although of course they claim the Linn is more
> 'musical' because of it................
The question is: If it is easy to get a "cleaner more neutral sound" from the
LP12 (simply use another mat on the platter), why haven't Linn done so already ?
> >For me the "distinctively coloured sound" of the Linn LP12 happen to match
> >the "distinctively coloured sound" of a live performance much better than
> >the other "high-end" tables I have listened to.
>
> Fine, that's most likely because your system is aligned to the LP12,
Possibly.
> but whatever, nobody is knocking your preference. I do not share your
> opinion, being more of a GyroDec kinda guy.
Maybe your system is aligned to the GyroDec ? :-)
I have listened to other turntables (not in my system though), both together
with Linn electronics and with other electronics and the Linn just seems more
involving. I did much of this listening before I had the LP12 myself, so.....
Oh well, guess it's much up to personal preferences.
It's just that you sounded so sure in your post (your choice of turntables
sounding "clean and neutral", the Linn sounding "bloated". "Most people" think
this and that etc. etc.), and I found it to totally contradict my own
experiences.
> >Just for the record: I have not listened to the Ariston.
>
> Not many people remember it...........
I guess it was before my "HiFi" days :-)
hea...@ix.netcom.com
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.) wrote:
>
> Jason C. Cotton wrote:
> >by Ariston and 'borrowed' by Linn.
> >
> > know how it compares to a Linn. Since Walter seems to think that
> > VPI tables are clearly superior sonically to Linns, and I do not,
> > I'm not sure how relevant *I* find any of his "original comments".
>
> I had an Ariston RD-11 Superieur, and it absolutely BURIED the Linn
> LP-12 sonically.
Well, there you have it! Case closed.
Brian
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>>>For me the "distinctively coloured sound" of the Linn LP12 happen to match
>>>the "distinctively coloured sound" of a live performance much better than
>>>the other "high-end" tables I have listened to.
>
>>Fine, that's most likely because your system is aligned to the LP12,
>>but whatever, nobody is knocking your preference. I do not share your
>>opinion, being more of a GyroDec kinda guy.
>
>Cut the crap, Stew. You think Linns suck, and that their owners are
>misguided Pagans. Not that that bothers *us* all that much. :-)
I have *never* expressed an opinion regarding the religious beliefs of
Linnies, outside their devotion to the great guru Tiefenbrun.
Otherwise, you're about right.............
>BTW, my current system was selected entirely by auditioning CDs, yet
>the Linn sounds just fine through it, thank you.
Weird, you'd think a Linnie would consider system synergy!
Stewart Pinkerton
au...@pegasus.demon.nl (Sander deWaal) writes:
>On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:35:46 GMT, pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk
>(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote the following:
>>Of course, if you *like* the distinctively coloured sound of the Linn,
>>then clearly no other TT will be an acceptable substitute, for you in
>>your system.
>
>While the Linn LP 12 is known for it's troubles in setting it up,
>when this is done properly, it's not "distinctively" colored, IMO.
>Given your recent discovery of the antiskating knob on your RB-300,
>after years of use, there's the possibility that the Linn you heard
>(or possibly own) , wasn't set up properly............. :-)
I have *never* owned a Linn, and my forgetting about the antiskate
knob is an indication that *unlike* Linns, once a GyroDec/RB300 is set
up, it *stays* set up......................
It's called engineering, something Ivor noticeably left out of the
design process of the LP12. That explains the standard whine of every
Linnie when the LP12 is criticisesd, "it must not have been set up
properly". Well, I've got news for you guys, *real* turntables don't
need to be tweaked every time the sun goes behind a cloud, and they
are simple to set up!
Stewart Pinkerton
Sture Jonsson <sture....@lu.erisoft.se> writes:
>The question is: If it is easy to get a "cleaner more neutral sound" from the
>LP12 (simply use another mat on the platter), why haven't Linn done so already ?
Who ever said you could get a clean and natural sound from an LP12? I
just said you could make it sound *different* by changing the felt
mat, I didn't say it would ever sound *right*!
>> but whatever, nobody is knocking your preference. I do not share your
>> opinion, being more of a GyroDec kinda guy.
>
>Maybe your system is aligned to the GyroDec ? :-)
Actually, it's aligned to CD, hence an LP source with a neutral
midband and tight bass (as far as is possible from LP!) is essential
to maintain the system sound.
At the end of the day, you can say what you like about the Linn, the
fact remains that it does *not* sound the same as most other high-end
turntables, and the others *do* generally share a similarity of sound
in the midband and a noticeably drier bass than the Linn.
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>First of all, a Linn LP-12's "sonic signature" will vary tremendously
>depending on where it's placed, what arm/cartridge/phono preamp one
>employs, how well it's been set up, etc.
I find the excessive warmth consistent, with the usual recommended
arms you find on Linns. *Real* turntables don't *need* careful setting
up, you just level them and switch on.......................
>I thought the table was
>slightly bass SHY for years until I installed a different cable
>from the PIB box on the back to my phono stage. I started getting
>really low, yet definitely not *bloated*, bass.
You got lots of extra bass when you changed the *cable*? Snigger.....
>BTW, when I changed to a DNM Ringmat, the sound did come into focus more,
>so at least you've said one thing that coincides with my experience.
>
>Finally, for all the blather about being a flimsy piece of tin, mine
>has held up flawlessly for over 10 years (and I bought it USED), and
>shows no signs of not easily going another 10. I believe it's also
>cheaper (perhaps significantly so) than the other tables you've
>mentioned. And I wouldn't trade mine for a VPI anything.
And you've never had to retune it in all those years? Incidentally,
the GyroDec is half the price of a 1998 Linn, and the superb Orbe is
only slightly more expensive, as is the Wilson Benesch. The GyroDec is
certainly a match for the Linn, and *much* more neutral, while the
Orbe and WB are simply in a higher class.
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>And you've never had to retune it in all those years? Incidentally,
>the GyroDec is half the price of a 1998 Linn, and the superb Orbe is
>only slightly more expensive, as is the Wilson Benesch. The GyroDec is
>certainly a match for the Linn, and *much* more neutral, while the
>Orbe and WB are simply in a higher class.
Uh, Stew, didn't you forget the last part of your standard speech?
To wit: A cheap Sony CD player will kick ANY turntable's ass sonically.
Which puts your opinion in perfect perspective (for me).
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>It's called engineering, something Ivor noticeably left out of the
>design process of the LP12. That explains the standard whine of every
>Linnie when the LP12 is criticisesd, "it must not have been set up
>properly". Well, I've got news for you guys, *real* turntables don't
>need to be tweaked every time the sun goes behind a cloud, and they
>are simple to set up!
Teeheeheehee.
OK, so how may square yards of real estate and trained assistants do
you think it takes to set up a VPI TNT?
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>>BTW, my current system was selected entirely by auditioning CDs, yet
>>the Linn sounds just fine through it, thank you.
>Weird, you'd think a Linnie would consider system synergy!
Stew, I bought the turntable, not the religion!
But I understand your hatred! Local boy makes good, and all. :-)
Enough of this fun. Perhaps a nice slab of vinyl to unwind with...
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>At the end of the day, you can say what you like about the Linn, the
>fact [sic] remains that it does *not* sound the same as most other high-end
>turntables, and the others *do* generally share a similarity of sound
>in the midband and a noticeably drier bass than the Linn.
Achtung!!
You vill sound ze same, or ve vill shoot you!
-Jason
Sture Jonsson
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> Who ever said you could get a clean and natural sound from an LP12? I
> just said you could make it sound *different* by changing the felt
> mat, I didn't say it would ever sound *right*!
Of course not, since you are obviously biased against Linn, just as I might be for
Linn.
But the fact remains. If the LP12 would have less "bloated bass" with another mat,
why didn't Linn put such a mat on the thing ?
> >Maybe your system is aligned to the GyroDec ? :-)
>
> Actually, it's aligned to CD, hence an LP source with a neutral
> midband and tight bass (as far as is possible from LP!) is essential
> to maintain the system sound.
I would say if your system is aligned to CD you will need electronics that are fuzzy
and warm to remove the harshness of the CD:s. But that's another story. You would
also need a harsh and dry turntable then since your electronics are not neutral.
> At the end of the day, you can say what you like about the Linn, the
> fact remains that it does *not* sound the same as most other high-end
> turntables, and the others *do* generally share a similarity of sound
> in the midband and a noticeably drier bass than the Linn.
And at the end of the day you can say what you want about Linn as well. Just the
fact that most of the others sound different from Linn (according to you), does not
necessarily mean they are right. The old (Swedish?) saying "1 000 000 flies can't be
wrong, eat crap !" comes to mind.....
Please note that this does not mean that I think that all other turntables are crap
!
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>At the end of the day, you can say what you like about the Linn, the
>>fact [sic] remains that it does *not* sound the same as most other high-end
>>turntables, and the others *do* generally share a similarity of sound
>>in the midband and a noticeably drier bass than the Linn.
>
>Achtung!!
>
>You vill sound ze same, or ve vill shoot you!
Lemme run this by you. High-end audio is a search for perfection, so
it would be reasonable to predict that high-end turntables will
converge more or less closely to a common 'sound'. Many of the leading
TTs have a great deal of similarity about their basic balance through
the frequency range, but the Linn sounds different. Now, hands up all
those who think that this is good evidence that the Linn LP12 is the
only 'perfect' turntable.................
Stewart Pinkerton
Sture Jonsson <sture....@lu.erisoft.se> writes:
>Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>
>> Who ever said you could get a clean and natural sound from an LP12? I
>> just said you could make it sound *different* by changing the felt
>> mat, I didn't say it would ever sound *right*!
>
>Of course not, since you are obviously biased against Linn, just as I might be for
>Linn.
Fair comment, but how come the LP12 has a quite different sound from
most other leading turntables?
>But the fact remains. If the LP12 would have less "bloated bass" with another mat,
>why didn't Linn put such a mat on the thing ?
Because then it wouldn't sound like a Linn. Remember, Ivor is not an
audio enthusiast, he's a *salesman*..............
>> >Maybe your system is aligned to the GyroDec ? :-)
>>
>> Actually, it's aligned to CD, hence an LP source with a neutral
>> midband and tight bass (as far as is possible from LP!) is essential
>> to maintain the system sound.
>
>I would say if your system is aligned to CD you will need electronics that are fuzzy
>and warm to remove the harshness of the CD:s. But that's another story. You would
>also need a harsh and dry turntable then since your electronics are not neutral.
You might say that, but I wouldn't!
My Nagra tape deck also tells me that my electronics are neutral, and
that CD is a lot closer to original sound than LP, but that, as you
say, is a different story..............
I really must start burning my own CDs..............
>> At the end of the day, you can say what you like about the Linn, the
>> fact remains that it does *not* sound the same as most other high-end
>> turntables, and the others *do* generally share a similarity of sound
>> in the midband and a noticeably drier bass than the Linn.
>
>And at the end of the day you can say what you want about Linn as well. Just the
>fact that most of the others sound different from Linn (according to you), does not
>necessarily mean they are right.
True, but it does shorten the odds!
>The old (Swedish?) saying "1 000 000 flies can't be
>wrong, eat crap !" comes to mind.....
It's good advice if you're a fly............
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>And you've never had to retune it in all those years? Incidentally,
>>the GyroDec is half the price of a 1998 Linn, and the superb Orbe is
>>only slightly more expensive, as is the Wilson Benesch. The GyroDec is
>>certainly a match for the Linn, and *much* more neutral, while the
>>Orbe and WB are simply in a higher class.
>
>Uh, Stew, didn't you forget the last part of your standard speech?
>
>To wit: A cheap Sony CD player will kick ANY turntable's ass sonically.
I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
>Which puts your opinion in perfect perspective (for me).
Your perspective is false. I *have* said that CD is much closer to the
master tape than LP can ever be. That is a provable fact, and has
nothing to do with sonic preference. I have both media at home, and I
enjoy the music from both. Where we presumably differ is that I think
the CD is more realistic, a higher fidelity medium.
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>It's called engineering, something Ivor noticeably left out of the
>>design process of the LP12. That explains the standard whine of every
>>Linnie when the LP12 is criticisesd, "it must not have been set up
>>properly". Well, I've got news for you guys, *real* turntables don't
>>need to be tweaked every time the sun goes behind a cloud, and they
>>are simple to set up!
>
>Teeheeheehee.
>
>OK, so how may square yards of real estate and trained assistants do
>you think it takes to set up a VPI TNT?
I have no idea, but it only takes a couple of minutes to set up an
SME, Michell or Wilson Benesch, after which it's rock solid. That
means you have much more time to enjoy the music, and you don't get
paranoid about the unit losing its tune.
After all, 'everybody knows' that if a Linn sounds bad, it's because
it hasn't been set up properly, so how can you avoid paranoia unless
the dealer pops in every week to check that nothing's been disturbed?
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
> most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
Which is totally absurd. You cannot generalize by price.
Zip
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc
Tel: 305-757-9358 Fax: 305-757-1367
9535 Biscayne Blvd.
Miami Shores, FL 33138
PASS Labs Carver Lightstar CODA Jadis Audible Illusions
Camelot Technology Audio Logic CEC Parasound Kinergetics
Chiro Benz Micro Gallo Acoustics Dunlavy Audio NEAR NHT
Cabasse Niles Zenith INTEQ Crystal Vision Straightwire
Rega Cleanlines by Vans Evers ENTECH by Monster Cable ESP
And a whole lot more :-)
Steve & Gigi want you to ENJOY THE MUSIC!
DO NOT USE COMPUSERVE
THEY RIPPED US OFF FOR TWO YEARS SERVICE
They told us to take a hike
NEVER USE COMPUSERVE
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>After all, 'everybody knows' that if a Linn sounds bad, it's because
>it hasn't been set up properly, so how can you avoid paranoia unless
>the dealer pops in every week to check that nothing's been disturbed?
I mentioned the importance of proper setup, which as the consummate
engineer, I thought you might agree to. It was YOU who introduced this
idea that Linn's are forever going out of tune, and need "weekly
checkups".
In 10 years, my Linn has been "into the shop" exactly twice, once for
a parts upgrade, and once for a cartridge upgrade.
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>Lemme run this by you. High-end audio is a search for perfection, so
>it would be reasonable to predict that high-end turntables will
>converge more or less closely to a common 'sound'. Many of the leading
>TTs have a great deal of similarity about their basic balance through
>the frequency range, but the Linn sounds different. Now, hands up all
>those who think that this is good evidence that the Linn LP12 is the
>only 'perfect' turntable.................
Sounds good on "paper", Stew.
Too bad we don't listen to paper...
-Jason
Walter Tice USG
In article <jccEo5...@netcom.com> j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>ti...@hunch.zk3.dec.com (Walter Tice USG) writes:
>I took my Linn LP12 with Ittok LVII arm and Sumiko BPS cartridge down
>to The Analog Room in San Jose to explore the possibilities of uprgading
>the arm and cartridge several months ago. I purchased the arm and
>table used for $850 in 1987 and have had troublefree service from them
>ever since. At some point, I pumped another $500 to get the Valhalla
>power supply and general upgrades done, and the cartridge cost
>me roughly $300. Total investment: ~$1,650.
>Anyway, Brian at The Analog Room seemed to think the Graham 2.0 arm
>might be my best ugrade, and I eagerly set off to hear it. Unfortunately,
>due to time constraints, I wasn't able to hear the Graham on my (or
>anybody's) LP12, but instead got to audition it on the shop's VPI TNT.
>I think we listened to a couple of different cartridges on it, including
>the Benz Glider, but my memory is vague. Both of the cartridges cost
>at least $750, however. If you added up the cost of table, arm, and
>cartridge in the VPI system, it was somewhere between $7-9K.
Interesting, you compare your stuff used price against new stuff, new
price. How about this combo: VPI MK IV, Clearaudio TQ-1, Crown Jewel
(all used: my cost $1250, new list: $5850).
Also you compare different arms and cartridges, not the same, so tell
me how usefull your comparison is. Also, IMO (and others here) the BPS
is a vastly overrated budget rave piece. Not my cup of tea at all.
It's quite raw, and unrefined compared to the Glider.
As long as the table is capable of decent performance (lets take it
out of the room, so suspension designs/performance are out of the
equation) the cart/arm is far more important to the overall sound
then the table! It is true then in a bad enviornment (big bass,
table sitting on a credenza, bad suspension, etc.) can play total
havoc with the arm/cart. Also true, that since 81' I've never had the
table in the same room as the speakers!
>To make a long story short, I found the sound from my Linn setup to
>be FAR more involving musically than what I was hearing out of the
>VPI. People talk about Linns not being accurate, but my experience
>that day was that my setup was also more true to the sound of live
>instruments (I play electric bass and drums, primarily).
If the arms and cartridges were the same, then I would give a good
deal of credence to what you say. Certainly, the reviews tend to
agree that a maxed out Linn is better then a VPI Mk IV. However,
I've heard a couple of Basis, the VPI TNT, Lurne, etc. and they
all killed the Linn (as well as my VPI model), they SHOULD given
the cost, but even a Oracle
Delphi (all the way back to Mk I) has a better 'sound' then the
Linn, I need a big table because of the arms I favor
(big tangentials), which don't fit on the Linn, or the Oracle
(I had a Mk II for 14 years), and 1 guy I know that had the
Linn sold it after comparing it head on the my circa 1978 Oracle
(moded to Mk II).
>I don't want to get into some kind of Holy War here. For the folks
>who prefer the VPI sound, I say go for it.
100% agree.
>But bear in mind that what Walter states above is an OPINION, and not
>a FACT.
>-Jason
True, as is yours. At least in my test cases, at least the cartridges
were the same, and usually the tone-arms too.
W
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>>Uh, Stew, didn't you forget the last part of your standard speech?
>>
>>To wit: A cheap Sony CD player will kick ANY turntable's ass sonically.
>I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
>most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
No, I'm quite sure you have said just that. If I had no life (or job),
I'd check out DejaNews and prove it!
>>Which puts your opinion in perfect perspective (for me).
>Your perspective is false. I *have* said that CD is much closer to the
>master tape than LP can ever be. That is a provable fact, and has
>nothing to do with sonic preference. I have both media at home, and I
>enjoy the music from both. Where we presumably differ is that I think
>the CD is more realistic, a higher fidelity medium.
I have never argued with the notion that (properly recorded and
mastered!!) CD is more "faithful" than vinyl to the source. Given
the complexities of the human mind, I might take exception to its
always sounding more "realistic".
-Jason
Stewart Pinkerton
"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> writes:
>Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>> I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
>> most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
>
>Which is totally absurd. You cannot generalize by price.
Hmmmm. I can't imagine why *you* would say that, Zip...............
Incidentally, it's not absurd, it's *true*.............
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
Really? You don't have Linn Saras or Kans then? Or Lowthers, or Tannoy
Monitors, or Mission 753s etc etc etc. Bad choice, dude! :-)
Heck, even Bose 901 lovers listen to paper..........
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>
>>>Uh, Stew, didn't you forget the last part of your standard speech?
>>>
>>>To wit: A cheap Sony CD player will kick ANY turntable's ass sonically.
>
>>I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
>>most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
>
>No, I'm quite sure you have said just that. If I had no life (or job),
>I'd check out DejaNews and prove it!
Well, you're wrong..........
>>>Which puts your opinion in perfect perspective (for me).
>
>>Your perspective is false. I *have* said that CD is much closer to the
>>master tape than LP can ever be. That is a provable fact, and has
>>nothing to do with sonic preference. I have both media at home, and I
>>enjoy the music from both. Where we presumably differ is that I think
>>the CD is more realistic, a higher fidelity medium.
>
>I have never argued with the notion that (properly recorded and
>mastered!!) CD is more "faithful" than vinyl to the source. Given
>the complexities of the human mind, I might take exception to its
>always sounding more "realistic".
Fairy nuff.
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>After all, 'everybody knows' that if a Linn sounds bad, it's because
>>it hasn't been set up properly, so how can you avoid paranoia unless
>>the dealer pops in every week to check that nothing's been disturbed?
>
>I mentioned the importance of proper setup, which as the consummate
>engineer, I thought you might agree to. It was YOU who introduced this
>idea that Linn's are forever going out of tune, and need "weekly
>checkups".
Actually, you'll find that's *exactly* why Linn introduced upgraded
springs, the poorly tempered ones they had previously used settled
over time, and upset both levelling and dynamic stability.
>In 10 years, my Linn has been "into the shop" exactly twice, once for
>a parts upgrade, and once for a cartridge upgrade.
Gee whiz, maybe the setup needs checking.............
jj, curmudgeon and tiring philalethist
In article <jccEoB...@netcom.com>, Jason C. Cotton <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>I have never argued with the notion that (properly recorded and
>mastered!!) CD is more "faithful" than vinyl to the source. Given
>the complexities of the human mind, I might take exception to its
>always sounding more "realistic".
That seems to put you in the top 1% here. Simply put, you're
showing the difference between accuracy and preference. This is something
that George the Bluntskulled has been avoiding for years. It's the
source of his accusations of "unintellegible" in his harrassment campaign.
Congratulations on understanding what Middius has refused to consider!
--
Copyright j...@research.att.com 1998, all rights reserved, except transmission
by USENET and like facilities granted. This notice must be included. Any
use by a provider charging in any way for the IP represented in and by this
article and any inclusion in print or other media are specifically prohibited.
Edward Derson Hou
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.) wrote:
> Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> > I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
> > most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
>
> Which is totally absurd. You cannot generalize by price.
Although the SonyES players are technically excellent, (and I am a SonyES
fan), and the Sony XA7ES competes with most players, well made players and
combos by Krell, Levinson, Accuphase, Camelot all are pretty much
impeccable sound quality wise.
Regards
Eddie
hea...@ix.netcom.com
Edward Derson Hou wrote:
>
> On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.) wrote:
>
> > Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> > > I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
> > > most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
> >
> > Which is totally absurd. You cannot generalize by price.
>
> Although the SonyES players are technically excellent, (and I am a SonyES
> fan), and the Sony XA7ES competes with most players, well made players and
> combos by Krell, Levinson, Accuphase, Camelot all are pretty much
> impeccable sound quality wise.
I've heard lots of really good CD players (from above: DP-65, No. 39,
KAV300CD) in my system, and can honestly say I didn't feel any of them
delivered better sound than the XA7ES (even the 508.20). I simply have
yet to hear anything I like better. If I did, I'd buy it.
Brian
hea...@ix.netcom.com
jj, curmudgeon and tiring philalethist wrote:
>
> In article <jccEoB...@netcom.com>, Jason C. Cotton <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
> >pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
> >I have never argued with the notion that (properly recorded and
> >mastered!!) CD is more "faithful" than vinyl to the source. Given
> >the complexities of the human mind, I might take exception to its
> >always sounding more "realistic".
>
> That seems to put you in the top 1% here. Simply put, you're
> showing the difference between accuracy and preference. This is something
> that George the Bluntskulled has been avoiding for years. It's the
> source of his accusations of "unintellegible" in his harrassment campaign.
Congratulations on yet another "civil" post.
Any light beginning to break here, or do you still see all this as
merely more of an attempt on my part to "defame" you?
Brian
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)
hea...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> I've heard lots of really good CD players (from above: DP-65, No. 39,
> KAV300CD) in my system, and can honestly say I didn't feel any of them
> delivered better sound than the XA7ES (even the 508.20). I simply have
> yet to hear anything I like better. If I did, I'd buy it.
>
> Brian
Then you owe it to yourself to come on down and visit us. One of my
good friends has an XA7ES and we have had it here on several occasions,
and compared it to our Audio Logic and Camelot Uther DACs. I can't wait
to get the PASS in at the same time to make it three strikes against the
Sony.
Edward Derson Hou
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 hea...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Edward Derson Hou wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.) wrote:
> >
> > > Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> > > > I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
> > > > most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
> > >
> > > Which is totally absurd. You cannot generalize by price.
> >
> > Although the SonyES players are technically excellent, (and I am a SonyES
> > fan), and the Sony XA7ES competes with most players, well made players and
> > combos by Krell, Levinson, Accuphase, Camelot all are pretty much
> > impeccable sound quality wise.
>
> I've heard lots of really good CD players (from above: DP-65, No. 39,
> KAV300CD) in my system, and can honestly say I didn't feel any of them
> delivered better sound than the XA7ES (even the 508.20). I simply have
> yet to hear anything I like better. If I did, I'd buy it.
of course, the XA7ES is rightfully in class A Stereophile.
however, SP's assertion that any SonyES over $1000 will kick Levinson,
Spectral, Krell, dcs Elgar ass is unjustified.
-Eddie
>
> Brian
>
>
John Mah
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>
> Sture Jonsson <sture....@lu.erisoft.se> writes:
>
> >Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> >
> >> Who ever said you could get a clean and natural sound from an LP12? I
> >> just said you could make it sound *different* by changing the felt
> >> mat, I didn't say it would ever sound *right*!
> >
> >Of course not, since you are obviously biased against Linn, just as I might be for
> >Linn.
>
> Fair comment, but how come the LP12 has a quite different sound from
> most other leading turntables?
Have you measured this lately?
> >But the fact remains. If the LP12 would have less "bloated bass" with another mat,
> >why didn't Linn put such a mat on the thing ?
>
> Because then it wouldn't sound like a Linn. Remember, Ivor is not an
> audio enthusiast, he's a *salesman*..............
How would you know what the sound of a Linn is? Remind me again, what is
the Linn sound? You've said yourself, that you've never owned a Linn?
Maybe your temporal memory of sound is much better than any of ours?
- John
fear3000
Jason C. Cotton wrote in message ...
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>It's called engineering, something Ivor noticeably left out of the
>>design process of the LP12. That explains the standard whine of every
>>Linnie when the LP12 is criticisesd, "it must not have been set up
>>properly". Well, I've got news for you guys, *real* turntables don't
>>need to be tweaked every time the sun goes behind a cloud, and they
>>are simple to set up!
>
>Teeheeheehee.
>
>OK, so how may square yards of real estate and trained assistants do
>you think it takes to set up a VPI TNT?
>
FWI, a TNT is very easy to set up, a HW-19 is a 10 minute job (at the most);
this statement clearly points to your lack of experience. I also agree with
Stewart that the LP-12 is colored. In fact, I'd rather listen to a Rega. In
a relatively neutral system, the Lynn sounds bloated and ill defined in the
bass, undynamic and rolled off at the frequency extremes; to put it
simply - boring. It reminds me of Benz Micro carts - blahhh.
Best wishes,
Fear3000
d.v.n.
Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message <34e434a1....@news.dircon.co.uk>...
>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>
>>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>>
>>>At the end of the day, you can say what you like about the Linn, the
>>>fact [sic] remains that it does *not* sound the same as most other
high-end
>>>turntables, and the others *do* generally share a similarity of sound
>>>in the midband and a noticeably drier bass than the Linn.
>Lemme run this by you. High-end audio is a search for perfection, so
>it would be reasonable to predict that high-end turntables will
>converge more or less closely to a common 'sound'. Many of the leading
>TTs have a great deal of similarity about their basic balance through
>the frequency range, but the Linn sounds different. Now, hands up all
>those who think that this is good evidence that the Linn LP12 is the
>only 'perfect' turntable.................
I can agree with this in that perfection is desirable.
Unfortunately,reality rears it's reasonable head.
Perfection being unattainable,colorations jump up.
The Linn is seemingly possesed of such imperfection.
Big surprise!
d.v.n.
Jason C. Cotton
"fear3000" <fear...@email.msn.com> writes:
>FWI, a TNT is very easy to set up, a HW-19 is a 10 minute job (at the most);
>this statement clearly points to your lack of experience. I also agree with
>Stewart that the LP-12 is colored. In fact, I'd rather listen to a Rega. In
>a relatively neutral system, the Lynn sounds bloated and ill defined in the
>bass, undynamic and rolled off at the frequency extremes; to put it
>simply - boring. It reminds me of Benz Micro carts - blahhh.
Well, my original comment was made in the spirit of humor, although
I will say a TNT seems to require a dedicated "space". I prefer
the compactness of my Linn. I also like the fact that little money
seems to have been expended in making a glitzy "statement" design
with the LP-12 as so many turntable manufacturers do these days.
My main complaint with the table is the lack of ease when playing
45s.
Sorry you find the Linn to be "boring". I can't state unequivocably
that I find VPIs to be boring, but I certainly CAN state that the VPI
experience I recounted left me stone cold. Maybe it was the cartridges,
maybe the Graham arm, but in general I would say that I much prefer
the sound of fully-suspended turntables. I used to own a Thorens when
I was a teenager and enjoyed it immensely.
When people criticize the bass response of the Linn, I have to laugh.
As I've stated many times, electric bass is my main instrument, and
I feel qualified to assess the bass performance of audio systems and
components. The Linn does just fine in that department IMO.
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>Actually, you'll find that's *exactly* why Linn introduced upgraded
>springs, the poorly tempered ones they had previously used settled
>over time, and upset both levelling and dynamic stability.
Amazing. Igor actually fixed a real problem. And all this time,
I thought he had no interest in audio...
Guess you can't believe everything you read! :-)
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>>
>>>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>>
>>>>Uh, Stew, didn't you forget the last part of your standard speech?
>>>>
>>>>To wit: A cheap Sony CD player will kick ANY turntable's ass sonically.
>>
>>>I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
>>>most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
>>
>>No, I'm quite sure you have said just that. If I had no life (or job),
>>I'd check out DejaNews and prove it!
>Well, you're wrong..........
OK, I'll just tuck this post away for the next occasion where you
spout that any decent CD player is "orders of magnitude" better than ANY
turntable. And if you claim that only applies to measurements and NOT
sound, then I ask "What the %$#@ is your point?".
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
ti...@hunch.zk3.dec.com (Walter Tice USG) writes:
>In article <jccEo5...@netcom.com> j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>>ti...@hunch.zk3.dec.com (Walter Tice USG) writes:
>
>>I took my Linn LP12 with Ittok LVII arm and Sumiko BPS cartridge down
>>to The Analog Room in San Jose to explore the possibilities of uprgading
>>the arm and cartridge several months ago. I purchased the arm and
>>table used for $850 in 1987 and have had troublefree service from them
>>ever since. At some point, I pumped another $500 to get the Valhalla
>>power supply and general upgrades done, and the cartridge cost
>>me roughly $300. Total investment: ~$1,650.
>
>>Anyway, Brian at The Analog Room seemed to think the Graham 2.0 arm
>>might be my best ugrade, and I eagerly set off to hear it. Unfortunately,
>>due to time constraints, I wasn't able to hear the Graham on my (or
>>anybody's) LP12, but instead got to audition it on the shop's VPI TNT.
>>I think we listened to a couple of different cartridges on it, including
>>the Benz Glider, but my memory is vague. Both of the cartridges cost
>>at least $750, however. If you added up the cost of table, arm, and
>>cartridge in the VPI system, it was somewhere between $7-9K.
>
>Interesting, you compare your stuff used price against new stuff, new
>price. How about this combo: VPI MK IV, Clearaudio TQ-1, Crown Jewel
>(all used: my cost $1250, new list: $5850).
I stated the prices of the equipment that was on hand for the
listening session I detailed.
Regarding your system, sounds like you got a great deal. I wish we
weren't separated by 3,000 miles, as I'd love to hear it against
what I've currently got.
>Also you compare different arms and cartridges, not the same, so tell
>me how usefull your comparison is. Also, IMO (and others here) the BPS
>is a vastly overrated budget rave piece. Not my cup of tea at all.
>It's quite raw, and unrefined compared to the Glider.
Well, considering that the store system was using a Glider against
my BPS, and a Graham 2.0 against my paltry Ittok II, and finally a
VPI TNT against my humble LP-12 (which apparently is a bad joke),
I'd have figured that the sound coming out of my setup would have
caused me to be humiliated in public. Instead, I gained a new
appreciation for just how much I do enjoy my Linn, and left the
store scratching my head as to what component in the VPI/Graham/Benz
chain had been responsible for the undymnamic, compressed sound
I had heard from it. I've heard great things about the Graham, so
I tend to ascribe it to the table. Who knows? Obviously, I wish
I'd had the opportunity to hear the Graham on my table, but I didn't.
>As long as the table is capable of decent performance (lets take it
>out of the room, so suspension designs/performance are out of the
>equation) the cart/arm is far more important to the overall sound
>then the table! It is true then in a bad enviornment (big bass,
>table sitting on a credenza, bad suspension, etc.) can play total
>havoc with the arm/cart. Also true, that since 81' I've never had the
>table in the same room as the speakers!
The environment was good. Slab floor with carpet. Both tables on
quite sturdy racks. We were listening to Brandenburg Concertos and
Eberhard Weber primarily, and at moderate levels. I don't know that
I agree with your statement about the relative importance of the
arm/cartridge to the table. Others have told me differently. I
don't have enough experience to really know. Regarding the BPS,
I find it to compete quite well with the other cartridges in its
price class that I've heard (Grado, Signet). The only failing
I notice is a somewhat strident treble. I realize, of course, that
one can do MUCH better for bigger dollars. Still, I find the
cartridge servicable, and it meshes well with my system.
>>To make a long story short, I found the sound from my Linn setup to
>>be FAR more involving musically than what I was hearing out of the
>>VPI. People talk about Linns not being accurate, but my experience
>>that day was that my setup was also more true to the sound of live
>>instruments (I play electric bass and drums, primarily).
>
>If the arms and cartridges were the same, then I would give a good
>deal of credence to what you say. Certainly, the reviews tend to
>agree that a maxed out Linn is better then a VPI Mk IV. However,
>I've heard a couple of Basis, the VPI TNT, Lurne, etc. and they
>all killed the Linn (as well as my VPI model), they SHOULD given
>the cost, but even a Oracle
>Delphi (all the way back to Mk I) has a better 'sound' then the
>Linn, I need a big table because of the arms I favor
>(big tangentials), which don't fit on the Linn, or the Oracle
>(I had a Mk II for 14 years), and 1 guy I know that had the
>Linn sold it after comparing it head on the my circa 1978 Oracle
>(moded to Mk II).
Well, obviously, "better sound" is a subjective thing in many cases.
Other times it's fairly cut and dried. I wish I'd been there to
hear all of the turntables you describe. One of the things that
makes it hard for me to consider sinking more money into my turntable
is the very difficulty of getting access to different equipment. I
am somewhat loathe to transport my turntable, although I did on
the occasion I described. The Analog Room is a nice store, but
it's probably not realistic to ask them to set up all the possible
permutations of table/arm/cartridge that one might be interested
in hearing before coming to a decision! Furthermore, they feature
all Sonic Frontiers tube gear in their listening room. All my
stuff is solid-state. Speakers are different. Etc.
>>But bear in mind that what Walter states above is an OPINION, and not
>>a FACT.
>True, as is yours. At least in my test cases, at least the cartridges
>were the same, and usually the tone-arms too.
Yes, my experience didn't POSITIVELY convince me that I prefer Linns
to VPIs, but if not, I really HATE Graham tonearms and/or Benz Gliders...
-Jason
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>
>>>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>>>
>>>>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>>>
>>>>>Uh, Stew, didn't you forget the last part of your standard speech?
>>>>>
>>>>>To wit: A cheap Sony CD player will kick ANY turntable's ass sonically.
>>>
>>>>I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
>>>>most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
>>>
>>>No, I'm quite sure you have said just that. If I had no life (or job),
>>>I'd check out DejaNews and prove it!
>
>>Well, you're wrong..........
>
>OK, I'll just tuck this post away for the next occasion where you
>spout that any decent CD player is "orders of magnitude" better than ANY
>turntable. And if you claim that only applies to measurements and NOT
>sound, then I ask "What the %$#@ is your point?".
Yes, I have indeed said that CD is orders of magnitude better in
dynamic range and distortion than any LP front end. I have also said
that this is indicative of relative fidelity to the master tape, and
has nothing to do with personal preference.
Now, what the %$#@ is *your* point?
Stewart Pinkerton
Edward Derson Hou <ed...@leland.Stanford.EDU> writes:
>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 hea...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> Edward Derson Hou wrote:
>> >
>> > On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.) wrote:
>> >
>> > > Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>> > > > I've never said that. A $1,000 Sony ES player will IMO kick the ass of
>> > > > most 'high-end' designer label CD transport/DAC combos, however....
>> > >
>> > > Which is totally absurd. You cannot generalize by price.
>> >
>> > Although the SonyES players are technically excellent, (and I am a SonyES
>> > fan), and the Sony XA7ES competes with most players, well made players and
>> > combos by Krell, Levinson, Accuphase, Camelot all are pretty much
>> > impeccable sound quality wise.
>>
>> I've heard lots of really good CD players (from above: DP-65, No. 39,
>> KAV300CD) in my system, and can honestly say I didn't feel any of them
>> delivered better sound than the XA7ES (even the 508.20). I simply have
>> yet to hear anything I like better. If I did, I'd buy it.
>
>
>of course, the XA7ES is rightfully in class A Stereophile.
>however, SP's assertion that any SonyES over $1000 will kick Levinson,
>Spectral, Krell, dcs Elgar ass is unjustified.
In your opinion....................
Of course I did say 'most', and I haven't heard the Elgar yet! I would
not actually include dCS as 'high-end designer label', since they are
in fact a highly professional studio equipment manufacturer, unlike
Krell or particularly Mark Levinson.
I maintain that it will better any multi-box by Krell or Levinson.
Please note that I am *not* saying it's better than the KPS-20i or ML
39, although probably as good.
Stewart Pinkerton
John Mah <jm...@netscape.com> writes:
>Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>>
>> Sture Jonsson <sture....@lu.erisoft.se> writes:
>>
>> >Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>> >
>> >> Who ever said you could get a clean and natural sound from an LP12? I
>> >> just said you could make it sound *different* by changing the felt
>> >> mat, I didn't say it would ever sound *right*!
>> >
>> >Of course not, since you are obviously biased against Linn, just as I might be for
>> >Linn.
>>
>> Fair comment, but how come the LP12 has a quite different sound from
>> most other leading turntables?
>
>Have you measured this lately?
You can't measure sound.......
I just couldn't resist that one! :-)
>> >But the fact remains. If the LP12 would have less "bloated bass" with another mat,
>> >why didn't Linn put such a mat on the thing ?
>>
>> Because then it wouldn't sound like a Linn. Remember, Ivor is not an
>> audio enthusiast, he's a *salesman*..............
>
>How would you know what the sound of a Linn is? Remind me again, what is
>the Linn sound? You've said yourself, that you've never owned a Linn?
>Maybe your temporal memory of sound is much better than any of ours?
As I've already said, the characteristic signature of the LP12 is a
warm lower-mid region, combined with loose bass (I call it 'bloated').
Despite the numerous changes to the Linn over the years, this basic
character has remained, and is presumably preferred by Linnies.
I'm an enthusiastic audiophile, as such it's virtually impossible for
me *not* to hear the LP12 regularly! I don't imagine my acoustic
memory is better than anyone else's, but my experience is certainly
greater than most (nothing clever here, just a function of having been
an audiophile for more than thirty years!). Being a Scottish engineer,
I've also been *very* familiar with the Linn (and the circumstances of
its creation) since its introduction in 1971/2 and its initial
carefully orchestrated demonstrations against the Technics SL120, the
'digital nasty' of the day! I dare say I've heard more Linn-based
systems than most people who *do* own Linns...............
Please note also that I have never denied that it's possible to put
together a very good record player using Linn/Naim components, the
problem is that it's a synergistic system, and you can't easily
introduce another source component without significant degradation of
the sound vis-a-vis LP. I suspect this is one of the primary reasons
for Linnies widely held dislike of CD - it *will* sound thin and harsh
in a perfectly-balanced system using an LP12 as primary source.
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>Actually, you'll find that's *exactly* why Linn introduced upgraded
>>springs, the poorly tempered ones they had previously used settled
>>over time, and upset both levelling and dynamic stability.
>
>Amazing. Igor actually fixed a real problem. And all this time,
>I thought he had no interest in audio...
>
>Guess you can't believe everything you read! :-)
Heck, any car mechanic could have told him how to fix *that* problem!
Ivor is in business to *sell* turntables, and when his dealers tell
him that Sondeks are sagging and the customers are pissed, you bet
your ass he'll come up with a fix. Note that this fix is an expensive
'upgrade' to the suspension - IOW he's charging the customers for
fixing a problem caused by metal fatigue! GM would have done it free
under recall........................
Stewart Pinkerton
"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> writes:
>hea...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> I've heard lots of really good CD players (from above: DP-65, No. 39,
>> KAV300CD) in my system, and can honestly say I didn't feel any of them
>> delivered better sound than the XA7ES (even the 508.20). I simply have
>> yet to hear anything I like better. If I did, I'd buy it.
>>
>> Brian
>
>Then you owe it to yourself to come on down and visit us. One of my
>good friends has an XA7ES and we have had it here on several occasions,
>and compared it to our Audio Logic and Camelot Uther DACs. I can't wait
>to get the PASS in at the same time to make it three strikes against the
>Sony.
Nice sales pitch, but why use a Pass when a Yamaha sounds the same to
you? Can't you *ever* switch off the sales droid? Well, I guess maybe
not, or you wouldn't be in business............
Sander deWaal
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:33:10 GMT, j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton)
wrote the following:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>After all, 'everybody knows' that if a Linn sounds bad, it's because
>>it hasn't been set up properly, so how can you avoid paranoia unless
>>the dealer pops in every week to check that nothing's been disturbed?
>
>I mentioned the importance of proper setup, which as the consummate
>engineer, I thought you might agree to. It was YOU who introduced this
>idea that Linn's are forever going out of tune, and need "weekly
>checkups".
>
>In 10 years, my Linn has been "into the shop" exactly twice, once for
>a parts upgrade, and once for a cartridge upgrade.
>
I owned a Basik for 3 years, and a LP12 /Ittok/Archive for 2 1/2.
Once setup, I checked the tables once a year, and only minor
adjustments to the springs were necessary.
BTW, if the springs aren't adjusted right, the Linn produces
"bloating" bass indeed.............
_
Sander deWaal
postm...@pegasus.demon.nl
_______________________________________________
"RAO is like a soap comedy, really."
_______________________________________________
Sander deWaal
On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:30:11 GMT, pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote the following:
> Note that this fix is an expensive
>'upgrade' to the suspension - IOW he's charging the customers for
>fixing a problem caused by metal fatigue! GM would have done it free
>under recall........................
I got my Trampolin kit for free.........AFTER the warranty period.
And another one when I was building my own turntable......
Some service, eh? :-)
hea...@ix.netcom.com
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.) wrote:
>
> hea...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> > I've heard lots of really good CD players (from above: DP-65, No. 39,
> > KAV300CD) in my system, and can honestly say I didn't feel any of them
> > delivered better sound than the XA7ES (even the 508.20). I simply have
> > yet to hear anything I like better. If I did, I'd buy it.
> >
> > Brian
>
> Then you owe it to yourself to come on down and visit us. One of my
> good friends has an XA7ES and we have had it here on several occasions,
> and compared it to our Audio Logic and Camelot Uther DACs. I can't wait
> to get the PASS in at the same time to make it three strikes against the
Fair enough. You may send my airline ticket to the address I'm e-mailing
you.
Can't wait for the demonstration! What's for dinner?
Brian
fear3000
Jason C. Cotton wrote in message ...
>
>>FWI, a TNT is very easy to set up, a HW-19 is a 10 minute job (at the
most);
>>this statement clearly points to your lack of experience. I also agree
with
>>Stewart that the LP-12 is colored. In fact, I'd rather listen to a Rega.
In
>>a relatively neutral system, the Lynn sounds bloated and ill defined in
the
>>bass, undynamic and rolled off at the frequency extremes; to put it
>>simply - boring. It reminds me of Benz Micro carts - blahhh.
>Sorry you find the Linn to be "boring". I can't state unequivocably
>that I find VPIs to be boring, but I certainly CAN state that the VPI
>experience I recounted left me stone cold.
How can you or anyone judge the performance of a cart/arm/tt combo without
hearing it in a famililar system (one that the listner OWNS) ? There are way
too many variables in place.
>When people criticize the bass response of the Linn, I have to laugh.
I'm glad you're laughing along with us; the LP-12 is bloated in the
mid-bass, almost completely lacks low bass , and does not know the meaning
of the word "speed". My opinion is not derived from hearsay, a "political"
stance, or an audition at a secondary location; I've set-up Linns and many
other tts.
>As I've stated many times, electric bass is my main instrument, and
>I feel qualified to assess the bass performance of audio systems and
>components. The Linn does just fine in that department IMO.
Look, you can't be taken seriously until you get more experience with hi-fi.
The Linn may sound better than the other tables you've owned, that's all
good and fine, but your exposure to high quality analog has been very
limited. Try to compare the Linn to other tables in the context of an
accurate, full range system and see if your opinion remains unchanged.
Best wishes,
Fear3000
fear3000
>Yes, my experience didn't POSITIVELY convince me that I prefer Linns
>to VPIs, but if not, I really HATE Graham tonearms and/or Benz Gliders...
>
>-Jason
I must say that the Glider, with its slow, dark and undynamic sound, will
suck the life out of most systems.
Best wishes,
Fear3000
Jason C. Cotton
"fear3000" <fear...@email.msn.com> writes:
>How can you or anyone judge the performance of a cart/arm/tt combo without
>hearing it in a famililar system (one that the listner OWNS) ? There are way
>too many variables in place.
Oh, OWNING a system is requisite to being able to use it as a baseline
for comparing two front ends? Interesting philosophy.
>>When people criticize the bass response of the Linn, I have to laugh.
>I'm glad you're laughing along with us; the LP-12 is bloated in the
>mid-bass, almost completely lacks low bass , and does not know the meaning
>of the word "speed". My opinion is not derived from hearsay, a "political"
>stance, or an audition at a secondary location; I've set-up Linns and many
>other tts.
Did you hear all of those tt's on a system you OWNED? Otherwise, how
do you know anything about them?
>Look, you can't be taken seriously until you get more experience with hi-fi.
>The Linn may sound better than the other tables you've owned, that's all
>good and fine, but your exposure to high quality analog has been very
>limited. Try to compare the Linn to other tables in the context of an
>accurate, full range system and see if your opinion remains unchanged.
People on RAO can choose to take me seriously or not depending on
opinions they form over time of my knowledge. I don't pretend to
be an expert on analog front ends. This is not an area that lends itself
to easy gathering of experience these days. One has to fill in some
blanks through third party opinions sometimes. And I've met plenty
of people whose opinion *I* respect who say the Linn is the best
turntable in its price class. Frankly, I don't care if it is or not.
My original point in entering this thread was that the Linn LP-12 is
certainly not JUNK as the original poster was claiming.
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
"fear3000" <fear...@email.msn.com> writes:
>>Yes, my experience didn't POSITIVELY convince me that I prefer Linns
>>to VPIs, but if not, I really HATE Graham tonearms and/or Benz Gliders...
>>
>>-Jason
>I must say that the Glider, with its slow, dark and undynamic sound, will
>suck the life out of most systems.
I hear Benz Micro is looking for spokespeople, BTW. :-)
We listened to another cartridge on the VPI/Graham which improved its
sound measurably (no pun intended); I wish I could remember which
cartridge that was. In any case, I still clearly preferred the Linn.
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>>
>>>Actually, you'll find that's *exactly* why Linn introduced upgraded
>>>springs, the poorly tempered ones they had previously used settled
>>>over time, and upset both levelling and dynamic stability.
>>
>>Amazing. Igor actually fixed a real problem. And all this time,
>>I thought he had no interest in audio...
>>
>>Guess you can't believe everything you read! :-)
>Heck, any car mechanic could have told him how to fix *that* problem!
>Ivor is in business to *sell* turntables, and when his dealers tell
>him that Sondeks are sagging and the customers are pissed, you bet
>your ass he'll come up with a fix. Note that this fix is an expensive
>'upgrade' to the suspension - IOW he's charging the customers for
>fixing a problem caused by metal fatigue! GM would have done it free
>under recall........................
Sorry for the delay in responding, Stew. I've been laughing so hard
at your post it's been hard to see the screen.
I mean, an engineer holding up GM as a role model for anything technical.
Here's a company that thought dual overhead cam engines were hot news
about 7 years ago!!! Weren't they also the company that tried to claim
that gas tanks mounted on the side of pickups weren't a safety hazard,
and only performed a recall after several hundred millions were awarded
the victims in court?
And I thought you were "into cars"! Perhaps a vintage Nova for you, Sir?
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!! (again)
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>Now, what the %$#@ is *your* point?
Well, one of my points is that trying to follow the logic of Pinkerton
can cause dizziness.
Pinkerton sez:
1) Most all good turntables (except the Linn LP-12) have a quite similar
"sound".
2) Audiophilia is a disease contracted by suckers with more money than
brains who buy hardware for all the wrong reasons (i.e., other than
"sound")
3) He owns a Gyrodec turntable, but "lusts after an Oracle".
Conclusion: Pinkerton is an "analog guy", since he clearly "does not
compute"... :-)
-Jason
TimmyP
I have owned 5 different LP12s over the last 20 years. LP12's are far from
perfect. Yes they must be setup at least once a year. Yes you must chose your
support carefully. In spite of all the LP12's faults I have yet to find any
non-Linn modification that did not markedly degrade the LP12's performance, and
I have yet to hear any turntable that reproduces the rhythm and the pitch
relationships of the music as well as an LP12. If you are using anything else,
you are simply missing a lot of music.
Tim...@aol.com
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>>Ivor is in business to *sell* turntables, and when his dealers tell
>>him that Sondeks are sagging and the customers are pissed, you bet
>>your ass he'll come up with a fix. Note that this fix is an expensive
>>'upgrade' to the suspension - IOW he's charging the customers for
>>fixing a problem caused by metal fatigue! GM would have done it free
>>under recall........................
>
>Sorry for the delay in responding, Stew. I've been laughing so hard
>at your post it's been hard to see the screen.
I'm always happy to bring happiness into peoples's lives!
>I mean, an engineer holding up GM as a role model for anything technical.
That was the point - *even* GM would have fixed it................
>Here's a company that thought dual overhead cam engines were hot news
>about 7 years ago!!!
That's probably why they got Lotus to do the ZR-1 engine.......
>Weren't they also the company that tried to claim
>that gas tanks mounted on the side of pickups weren't a safety hazard,
>and only performed a recall after several hundred millions were awarded
>the victims in court?
That's them, warm and wonderful people at heart!
>And I thought you were "into cars"! Perhaps a vintage Nova for you, Sir?
My wife used to drive one - of course, the Nova was a quite different
car over here. I currently drive a Cavalier, again not quite the same
car, mine has 170 horses pulling the cart..............
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>Now, what the %$#@ is *your* point?
>
>Well, one of my points is that trying to follow the logic of Pinkerton
>can cause dizziness.
>
>Pinkerton sez:
>
>1) Most all good turntables (except the Linn LP-12) have a quite similar
>"sound".
Correct, in terms of basic balance. The *quality* of the sound is a
whole other ball game, and you need big bucks to play in the major
league. Top quality LP front ends are *very* expensive to make, since
they require high precision mechanical engineering.
>2) Audiophilia is a disease contracted by suckers with more money than
>brains who buy hardware for all the wrong reasons (i.e., other than
>"sound")
I never said it was wrong to buy audio gear for other reasons than
pure sound quality, I just like people to make an *informed* choice.
>3) He owns a Gyrodec turntable, but "lusts after an Oracle".
Correct. I believe the Delphi *is* a better turntable than the GyroDec
(lower noise, better suspension, more low-level detail etc), although
with similar basic sound balance. It's also drop dead gorgeous, which
is a perfectly valid reason for buying it, given that the sound
quality is excellent.
>Conclusion: Pinkerton is an "analog guy", since he clearly "does not
>compute"... :-)
Alternative conclusion - Cotton can't follow logic.
msh...@tojv.com.au
mmm ...
70 postings in 10 days and 67 postings in the last 6 - the Linn flamewar is
alive and well. I wonder where high end turntables would be now if Linn had
not come along all those years ago? (OK, I know that Thorens were always
there etc)
Seriously guys (ie people), there's a bit of crediblity issue here with what
has been said in this thread. Surely most of you don't actually listen to
music because you are too busy hunched over your computers engaged in the
flamewar. C'mon Stewie, Zip, Middie, JB, (sorry for missing out any others
who consider themselves worthy) - how many hours a day do you sit at the
keyboard!!?? Guys, get a life!!
Seriously though (no, this comment really is serious, honest!) somewhere back
there this thread started talking about LP12's and that's fair enough, but it
drifted into CD's and a few other places. For my part I have both an LP12 and
XA7ES and enjoy listening to both. By far the biggest variable however is the
software. IMO, more than 90% of sofware, both digital and analog doen't go
anywhere near exploiting the capability of the technology, which is more the
pity. In my experience, depending on the recording, either medium may be
preferable.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
hea...@ix.netcom.com
fear3000 wrote:
>
> >Yes, my experience didn't POSITIVELY convince me that I prefer Linns
> >to VPIs, but if not, I really HATE Graham tonearms and/or Benz Gliders...
> >
> >-Jason
>
> suck the life out of most systems.
Just goes to show you..... there seems no end to the number of people
that have told me they feel it's the best on the market for under $1K.
There doesn't appear to be nearly the wealth of divided opinion
regarding the Glider that surrounds, say, the BPS.
Brian
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)
TimmyP wrote:
> In spite of all the LP12's faults I have yet to find any
> non-Linn modification that did not markedly degrade the LP12's performance,
The PinkLink mod from Pink Triangle is a clear improvement.
> and
> I have yet to hear any turntable that reproduces the rhythm and the pitch
> relationships of the music as well as an LP12.
Horseshit. The Oracle Delphi's, and the Ariston RD11S and RD90S, and
the Goldmund Refereence all BURIED the Linn sonically. SANS DOUBT!
My Orachle Delphi - and later My Oracle Premier just blew away any Linn
in clarity, detail, bass, timimg, pace, imaging & soundsstaging - Linns
were splashy on top, soggy in the midbass, didn't reach into the bottom
octave........
> If you are using anything else, you are simply missing a lot of music.
And if you use the Linn you are losing even more.
GMAB with that IVOR BRAINWASHING crap!
Zip
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc
Tel: 305-757-9358 Fax: 305-757-1367
9535 Biscayne Blvd.
Miami Shores, FL 33138
PASS Labs Carver Lightstar CODA Jadis Audible Illusions
Camelot Technology Audio Logic CEC Parasound Kinergetics
Chiro Benz Micro Gallo Acoustics Dunlavy Audio NEAR NHT
Cabasse Niles Zenith INTEQ Crystal Vision Straightwire
Rega Cleanlines by Vans Evers ENTECH by Monster Cable ESP
And a whole lot more :-)
Steve & Gigi want you to ENJOY THE MUSIC!
DO NOT USE COMPUSERVE
THEY RIPPED US OFF FOR TWO YEARS SERVICE
They told us to take a hike
NEVER USE COMPUSERVE
AM Randle
*******************************************
******MY TOY IS BETTER THAN YOUR TOY*******
*******************************************
P.S. So there!
Hi Guys (and any Girls).
Well it looks like there's been a rare old discussion going on over here
and I've been missing it.
Special Hi to Stewart, remember me from our discussion on the uk.audio
group?? Still trying to downplay us Linnies, by saying we are
religious? You are going about it very religiously.... :)
Anyway, being a Linnie I've made a recent astounding discovery. Yes I've
heard an AUDIO NOTE (of all companies) system that was wonderfully
musical, as good as a Linn system. Stewart, you would have hated it!
Funny how I've heard Audio Note kit before at the Ramada and thought it
was crap. However the system at the Manchester Hi-fi Show was utterly
musical - I couldn't believe it, but why - how??? This used the big
AN loudspeakers with Quest monoblocks and M3 preamp. The source was one
of AN's cd players in a DENON box. Amazingly large, coherent, high
impact, subtle phrasing, subtle tonality, bopability - just like an
LP-12 Keltik system.
Wilson-Benesch were also there, although the rendition of the Sheffield
Lab (top notch audiophile) jazz drum recording was amazing (like a kit in
the room), vocals on a seperate recording suffered mid-range suckout. I
think you'd like that Stewart.
Also we discussed 25bit/96kHz and you said I'd be dissappointed. Not in
the slightest. Both demos were excellent. The switch between 96kHz and
44.1kHz rates was extremely enlightening. The 96kHz gave better tonal
accuracy, timing, decay (including reverberation), presence and
articulation. Maybe you will be sticking to CD after-all, 96kHz/24 bit
sounds closer (to me) to a Linn system and further from a Michell
Engineering system.
Bye4now
AndyR
York, England
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)
TimmyP wrote:
>
> I suppose that if one judges the merits of a musical performance based on
> sonicl criteria such as bass, detail, imaging, splashiness, etc., then perhaps
> the Oracles, Aristons, and others are the best choice, and LP12 mods such as
> the PT and the Ring Mat are an improvement. For those who judge the merit of a
> musical event based on criteria such as intonation and phrasing, the LP12 is
> the choice. To each his own. Just please listen for yourself and with an open
> mind before spending your hard earned money.
> Tim...@aol.com
I've owned perhaps 6 or 7 Linns in my life, and the fact is that the
Oracled Delphi is FAR FAR BETTER at recreating the original musical
event. There is no area where the Linn is better, except in mystique
bullshit.
TimmyP
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>Alternative conclusion - Cotton can't follow logic.
Unlikely, as Cotton makes a nice living "following logic".... :-)
-Jason
p.S. If one thing did come out of this thread, it's that seriously
auditioning an Oracle is on my "To Do" list... I did hear one ever
so briefly at the HiFi 97 show, but of course that was fairly
meaningless, and I was probably paying attention to everything else
in the room anyway.
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>
>>Alternative conclusion - Cotton can't follow logic.
>
>Unlikely, as Cotton makes a nice living "following logic".... :-)
You can fool all of the clients some of the time, and some of the
clients all of the time etc, etc.
Not that I'm suggesting, of course........ :-)
Do have a listen to the resurrected Oracle Delphi if you can, though.
It's a classic design, soundly engineered and truly elegant, in a
world of ugly slabs!
Stewart Pinkerton
am...@york.ac.uk (AM Randle) writes:
>Special Hi to Stewart, remember me from our discussion on the uk.audio
>group?? Still trying to downplay us Linnies, by saying we are
>religious? You are going about it very religiously.... :)
No Andy, you are confusing active dedication to the truth with
religious fervour! :-)
>Anyway, being a Linnie I've made a recent astounding discovery. Yes I've
>heard an AUDIO NOTE (of all companies) system that was wonderfully
>musical, as good as a Linn system. Stewart, you would have hated it!
Why would I hate it? I've often *liked* those pleasantly 'musical'
mid-fi systems, they're just not very accurate...........
>Funny how I've heard Audio Note kit before at the Ramada and thought it
>was crap. However the system at the Manchester Hi-fi Show was utterly
>musical - I couldn't believe it, but why - how??? This used the big
>AN loudspeakers with Quest monoblocks and M3 preamp. The source was one
>of AN's cd players in a DENON box. Amazingly large, coherent, high
>impact, subtle phrasing, subtle tonality, bopability - just like an
>LP-12 Keltik system.
That's probably down to those big speakers in a room which suited
them. It makes a *huge* difference to the sound quality if you get a
good room/speaker match - regrettably rare at shows! :-(
>Wilson-Benesch were also there, although the rendition of the Sheffield
>Lab (top notch audiophile) jazz drum recording was amazing (like a kit in
>the room), vocals on a seperate recording suffered mid-range suckout. I
>think you'd like that Stewart.
Maybe it was the recording - I certainly do like the full WB
deck/arm/cart/table setup, one of the very best and not outrageously
priced.
>Also we discussed 25bit/96kHz and you said I'd be dissappointed. Not in
>the slightest. Both demos were excellent. The switch between 96kHz and
>44.1kHz rates was extremely enlightening. The 96kHz gave better tonal
>accuracy, timing, decay (including reverberation), presence and
>articulation. Maybe you will be sticking to CD after-all, 96kHz/24 bit
>sounds closer (to me) to a Linn system and further from a Michell
>Engineering system.
Was that the dodgy dCS demo? I'd really like to know how they do the
16/44 part of that demo (and how the whole thing is staged), since
16/44 at its best is so good that I find it *very* hard to believe
that there's a dramatic difference going to 24/96. Professionals are
still having furious arguments about whether there's any significant
audible benefit (apart from making filter design easier, which is not
a bandwidth or resolution issue), so I find these 'dramatic' public
demos by people trying to sell 24/96 gear rather suspicious.
Your other comment reinforces my suspicion, since I've always found
that the GyroDec has noticeably better tonal accuracy, timing, decay
(including reverberation), presence and articulation than a Linn, so
there must be something wrong............... :-)
Walter Tice USG
In article <jccEo7...@netcom.com> j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> writes:
>>Jason:
>>I had an Ariston RD-11 Superieur, and it absolutely BURIED the Linn
>>LP-12 sonically.
>>Zip
>Hey, bully for you!
>It's a shame I'll probably never get to hear one. Until I do, I
>have no way of knowing whether your assessment holds any water or not...
>for me.
>-Jason
Well, if you go back to my original post in this thread, I mentioned the
RD-11S specifically as better then the Linn circa 1978. Steve agrees,
that makes 2 of us. And there were others I knew back in those days
that agreed.
I got rid of the Ariston because it could not support
the arm I wanted to use (JVC UA-7045 - a knockoff of the FR-64 with real
nice VTA adjustement during play). In terms of use with the dustcover on,
I got over dustcovers, and don't use em anymore. That's when I got my
Oracle Delphi, which is not only 'fine' sounding, but has to be the
about the most lovely turntable of all time
Didn't the 'Linn' guy seize the company from his father, who then went
off and did Ariston? I remember Stewart posted some details, but, that's
what I remember.
Look, the Linn (maxed out later versions) is a real good table, just,
IMO, not worth the money vs. other choices. God knows there is plenty of
that in the high-end, and I've owned some of it!
W
Jason C. Cotton
ti...@hunch.zk3.dec.com (Walter Tice USG) writes:
>In article <jccEo7...@netcom.com> j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>>"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> writes:
>
>>>Jason:
>>>I had an Ariston RD-11 Superieur, and it absolutely BURIED the Linn
>>>LP-12 sonically.
>>>Zip
>
>>Hey, bully for you!
>
>>It's a shame I'll probably never get to hear one. Until I do, I
>>have no way of knowing whether your assessment holds any water or not...
>>for me.
>>-Jason
>Well, if you go back to my original post in this thread, I mentioned the
>RD-11S specifically as better then the Linn circa 1978. Steve agrees,
>that makes 2 of us. And there were others I knew back in those days
>that agreed.
Yeah, well you and Steverino also don't particularly like Vandersteens,
so I have to factor THAT into your opinions... :-)
Seriously, I love collecting opinions, but I'm stubborn in that I must
hear something for myself (multiple times, if possible) before forming
my own opinion of it.
>I got rid of the Ariston because it could not support
>the arm I wanted to use (JVC UA-7045 - a knockoff of the FR-64 with real
>nice VTA adjustement during play). In terms of use with the dustcover on,
>I got over dustcovers, and don't use em anymore. That's when I got my
>Oracle Delphi, which is not only 'fine' sounding, but has to be the
>about the most lovely turntable of all time
Seems to be a lot of agreement lately that the Oracle was (is?) a
fine table. What was the price range? Which arms/cartridges were
considered good matches? Is the table about to go into production
again? I'd love to hear one.
>Look, the Linn (maxed out later versions) is a real good table, just,
>IMO, not worth the money vs. other choices. God knows there is plenty of
>that in the high-end, and I've owned some of it!
I don't really have an emotional stake in this whole Linn vs. The Rest of
The World debate. Until recently, my Linn was clearly better than the
rest of my system. Things have changed, and I'm now revisiting modern
turntable technology. My only point was that Linns are not "junk" in
the sense that they do not fall apart, and they also sound quite good
(to my ear), even in the bass/midbass, where I have no problem with
resolution in my system. The story I related about the VPI comparison
was just to highlight that it's not a given that newer, more expensive
turntables will blow an old LP-12 out of the water.
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
>>pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>>
>>>Alternative conclusion - Cotton can't follow logic.
>>
>>Unlikely, as Cotton makes a nice living "following logic".... :-)
>You can fool all of the clients some of the time, and some of the
>clients all of the time etc, etc.
Spoken *like* an "experienced" professional... :-)
>Not that I'm suggesting, of course........ :-)
Ditto, of course. :-)
>Do have a listen to the resurrected Oracle Delphi if you can, though.
>It's a classic design, soundly engineered and truly elegant, in a
>world of ugly slabs!
Jolly good, old boy! Fine excuse to hop on over to Europa, I suppose...
-Jason
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)
Walter Tice USG wrote:
>
> In article <jccEo7...@netcom.com> j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) writes:
> >"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> writes:
>
> >>Jason:
> >>I had an Ariston RD-11 Superieur, and it absolutely BURIED the Linn
> >>LP-12 sonically.
> >>Zip
>
> >Hey, bully for you!
>
> >It's a shame I'll probably never get to hear one. Until I do, I
> >have no way of knowing whether your assessment holds any water or not...
> >for me.
> >-Jason
>
> Well, if you go back to my original post in this thread, I mentioned the
> RD-11S specifically as better then the Linn circa 1978. Steve agrees,
> that makes 2 of us. And there were others I knew back in those days
> that agreed.
>
> the arm I wanted to use (JVC UA-7045 - a knockoff of the FR-64 with real
> nice VTA adjustement during play). In terms of use with the dustcover on,
> I got over dustcovers, and don't use em anymore. That's when I got my
> Oracle Delphi, which is not only 'fine' sounding, but has to be the
> about the most lovely turntable of all time
>
> off and did Ariston? I remember Stewart posted some details, but, that's
> what I remember.
>
> IMO, not worth the money vs. other choices. God knows there is plenty of
> that in the high-end, and I've owned some of it!
>
I used the Ariston RD-11S Superieur with an Alphason HR-100 tonearm.
This was a titanium, S-shaped tonearm that was wonderful sounding. I
had previously used Ittok, Breuer, and a Scottish arm that I plum forgot
the name of - but it was very good and designed by a guy named
Strachen. Finally, I put in a ZETA arm, and that was my favorite arm.
What a great combo - and one of the best sounding I ever owned - I used
a Briar MC cartridge and a Spectral cartridge.
That Ariston just blew away any Linn I ever owned or heard - by a lot.
cheers
AM Randle
Stewart Pinkerton (pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk) wrote: : am...@york.ac.uk
(AM Randle) writes:
: >Special Hi to Stewart, remember me from our discussion on the uk.audio
: >group?? Still trying to downplay us Linnies, by saying we are
:> religious? You are going about it very religiously.... :)
: No Andy, you are confusing active dedication to the truth with
: religious fervour! :-)
I think we've already covered the difference between subjective views,
truth and religion.
: >Anyway, being a Linnie I've made a recent astounding discovery. Yes I've
: >heard an AUDIO NOTE (of all companies) system that was wonderfully
: >musical, as good as a Linn system. Stewart, you would have hated it!
: Why would I hate it? I've often *liked* those pleasantly 'musical'
: mid-fi systems, they're just not very accurate...........
Is that Audio Note or Linn you are writing about? I think the whole world
knows your view on Linn, what about AN?
: >Funny how I've heard Audio Note kit before at the Ramada and thought it
: >was crap. However the system at the Manchester Hi-fi Show was utterly
: >musical - I couldn't believe it, but why - how??? This used the big
: >AN loudspeakers with Quest monoblocks and M3 preamp. The source was one
: >of AN's cd players in a DENON box. Amazingly large, coherent, high
: >impact, subtle phrasing, subtle tonality, bopability - just like an
: >LP-12 Keltik system.
: That's probably down to those big speakers in a room which suited
: them. It makes a *huge* difference to the sound quality if you get a
: good room/speaker match - regrettably rare at shows! :-(
Very true, don't forget the noise on the mains.
: >Also we discussed 25bit/96kHz and you said I'd be dissappointed. Not
: >the slightest. Both demos were excellent. The switch between 96kHz and
: >44.1kHz rates was extremely enlightening. The 96kHz gave better tonal
: >accuracy, timing, decay (including reverberation), presence and
: >articulation. Maybe you will be sticking to CD after-all, 96kHz/24 bit
: >sounds closer (to me) to a Linn system and further from a Michell
: >Engineering system.
: Was that the dodgy dCS demo? I'd really like to know how they do the
: 16/44 part of that demo (and how the whole thing is staged), since
: 16/44 at its best is so good that I find it *very* hard to believe
: that there's a dramatic difference going to 24/96.
Actually I was writing about the EMI demo downstairs. OK so the amps and
loudspeakers had questionable pedigree, but the difference was stunning. I
AM TALKING ABOUT NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCES!! This may sound like a
cliche, but a change from 44.1kHz to 96kHz sampling rates brought on a
doubling of performance. Not surprising really because of the doubling of
accuracy.
: Professionals are
: still having furious arguments about whether there's any significant
: audible benefit (apart from making filter design easier, which is not
: a bandwidth or resolution issue), so I find these 'dramatic' public
: demos by people trying to sell 24/96 gear rather suspicious.
They can argue all they like. The results are there. Did you hear them
at Manchester? From what you have written, it appears that you actually
went. What do you vote as your top sounds of the show? Me, I give the
following places:
1) Linn (OK OK, they weren't there)
1) Audio Note
2) Absolute Sounds. Krell CD,pre,600 power amp/Wilson CUBB
3) Bill Beard's new BB30-60 amplifier (with EPOS ES12/Rega Planet)
: Your other comment reinforces my suspicion, since I've always found
: that the GyroDec has noticeably better tonal accuracy, timing, decay
: (including reverberation), presence and articulation than a Linn,
: so there must be something wrong............... :-)
I told you that you're not going to like 24bit/96kHz recording/playback.
Looks like you have found another soapbox ;)
AndyR
York, England
Jason C. Cotton
"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> writes:
>That Ariston just blew away any Linn I ever owned or heard - by a lot.
So, Steve, WHY did you end up owning 6 or 7 Linns, as you mentioned the
other day? And what happened to the Ariston?
-Jason
Fear3000
> j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) wrote:
>"fear3000" <fear...@email.msn.com> writes:
>>How can you or anyone judge the performance of a cart/arm/tt combo without
>>hearing it in a famililar system (one that the listner OWNS) ? There are way
>>too many variables in place.
>Oh, OWNING a system is requisite to being able to use it as a baseline
>for comparing two front ends?
YES ! Unless one is intimetly familiar with the sound of a given rig, one can
only judge the performance of the system, not an individual component. This is
basic subjective audio !
>>>When people criticize the bass response of the Linn, I have to laugh.
>>I'm glad you're laughing along with us; the LP-12 is bloated in the
>>mid-bass, almost completely lacks low bass , and does not know the meaning
>>of the word "speed". My opinion is not derived from hearsay, a "political"
>>stance, or an audition at a secondary location; I've set-up Linns and many
>>other tts.
>
>Did you hear all of those tt's on a system you OWNED?
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Otherwise, how do you know anything about them?
There is no "otherwise" !!! Every component I've ever written about on this NG,
I've had in my home, most for extended stays.
>>Look, you can't be taken seriously until you get more experience with hi-fi.
>People on RAO can choose to take me seriously or not depending on
>opinions they form over time of my knowledge.
My point exactly <G>.
> I don't pretend to be an expert on analog front ends.
"Pretend" is right.
>One has to fill in some blanks through third party opinions sometimes.
Just as I thought.
Listen for your self sometime. Maybe it'll help you form an "authentic"
opinion.
> I've met plenty of people whose opinion *I* respect who say the Linn is the
best
>turntable in its price class. Frankly, I don't care if it is or not.
If you don't care, why go to such great lengths to argue the point by siting
the views of others?
Best wishes,
Fear3000
Fear3000
> hea...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>fear3000 wrote:
>> I must say that the Glider, with its slow, dark and undynamic sound, will
>> suck the life out of most systems.
>Just goes to show you..... there seems no end to the number of people
>that have told me they feel it's the best on the market for under $1K.
>There doesn't appear to be nearly the wealth of divided opinion
>regarding the Glider that surrounds, say, the BPS.
I think this is a matter of dispertion (sic); more people have heard the BPS
than the Glider. I have to say though, it's a good looking cartridge.
Best wishes,
Fear3000
Fear3000
> j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) wrote:
> If one thing did come out of this thread, it's that seriously auditioning an
Oracle is >on my "To Do" list... I did hear one ever so briefly at the HiFi 97
show, but of course >that was fairly meaningless
Yet you consider your audition of a Graham/VPI, in a dealer's showroom,
meaningful.
GMAB, where's the logic here?
Best wishes,
Fear3000
Jason C. Cotton
fear...@aol.com (Fear3000) writes:
Dear Fear,
The logic is: I went to the showroom with my turntable wanting to know
if I could improve the sound of it by upgrading the arm or cartridge.
Taking the rest of my system was not exactly practical, so we used
the dealer's. I know Sonic Frontiers and Avalon (speakers) to be
reputable brands and I've heard lots of tube gear and SF in particular
many times and know basically what to expect from them.
Furthermore, when I hear MY front end on a given system, I by definition
know the minimum quality of sound that system is capable of producing
with ANY front end. If we then substitute the dealer's front end
into the system and I don't like the sound nearly as well, I find it
FAR more likely that I don't like that front end as well, as opposed to
some mystical system synergy BS, especially when you'd think the dealer
(if he is someone with whom I will wish to do business) will have
not intentionally mismatched the very components which he sells and
presumably has tremendous familiarity with.
And yes, there is really no comparison between hearing an Oracle
for 5 minutes in a hotel room and spending 2.5 hours with my records,
my turntable in tow, and a critical attitude, in a dedicated listening
room.
Sorry to rain on your ideal world pipe dream, but some of us don't have
the time and/or resources to arrange to have every possible audio
component of interest in our own home for extended periods of time,
particularly if that means buying them and trying to resell later
at a loss.
Furthermore, Stewart says he's never owned a Linn nor allowed one
in his house, so are you saying his opinion of all things Linn is
null and void?
Get real! And why do you *really* care if I like Linns better than
VPIs, anyway???
-Jason
Jason C. Cotton
fear...@aol.com (Fear3000) writes:
>> j...@netcom.com (Jason C. Cotton) wrote:
>> I don't pretend to be an expert on analog front ends.
>"Pretend" is right.
Quit being a pompous ass. I had an experience. I recounted it truthfully.
Feel free to question the validity of my conclusion thereof, but please
don't misrepresent what I've said. NOWHERE have I claimed to be an
authority on turntables.
>>One has to fill in some blanks through third party opinions sometimes.
>Just as I thought.
> Listen for your self sometime. Maybe it'll help you form an "authentic"
>opinion.
Again, you strike me as a jerk with this comment. In this very thread
I've spoken about the need for actual listening before forming definitive
opinions. Over time, one finds people who share similar tastes in sound
and music. When actual experience is not available, those are the
people whose opinions I will use as temporary placeholders, as it were.
>> I've met plenty of people whose opinion *I* respect who say the Linn is the
>best
>>turntable in its price class. Frankly, I don't care if it is or not.
>If you don't care, why go to such great lengths to argue the point by siting
>the views of others?
That's "citing", BTW. It really wasn't such a "great length" to formulate
a sentence. The point was just because two or three people on RAO agree
that VPIs are better than Linns or Aristons are better than Linns, doesn't
mean they are. Furthermore, there may be no absolute "better". That's
why I don't care about it. I just wanted to point out that it was not
a unanimous opinion among all people whose opinions I've come to respect.
>Best wishes,
Likewise,
>Fear3000
Jason