Horizontal vs. Vertical bi-amping
Noah Rosenthal
[ Reposted due to LeRC newsfeed problems. -- jwd ]
After bi-wiring my speakers (Paradigm 5seMkIII), I was taking a second
look at the manuals, and they include two diagrams for bi-amping: one
for vertical, and one for horizontal. Assuming that you had two of the
same amps, why would you bother to vertical bi-amp? Is there a sound
difference between the two? Can anyone shed light on this?
Thanks in advance,
Noah
Charles P. Tomes
Noah Rosenthal wrote:
> After bi-wiring my speakers (Paradigm 5seMkIII), I was taking a second
> look at the manuals, and they include two diagrams for bi-amping: one
> for vertical, and one for horizontal. Assuming that you had two of the
> same amps, why would you bother to vertical bi-amp? Is there a sound
> difference between the two? Can anyone shed light on this?
Vertical biamping has a couple of theoretical advantages over
horizontal biamping. With the bass drivers powered by separate amps,
the separate power supplies are able to deliver more total current to
the bass drivers than if they were powered from one amp. The
separation of the channels by definition must be greater, since they
no longer are driven from the same amplifier.
Vertical biamping also allows you to place the amps closer to the
speakers. Mine have 3' interconnects and 5' biwired runs of F-18.
This cut the cost, since I would have had to buy 10' runs if the amps
were centered between the speakers.
I noticed a minor improvement, mostly in the low bass response, when I
went from horizontal to vertical biamping. The biggest improvement
was going from one amp to two...
--
CP Tomes 1986 VF1000R "?" 1984 VF500F "Hamster"
1982 300SD "Hans" 1981 GL1100 "Bertha"
Any opinions I espouse are certainly not those of my
Internet Service Provider(ie my employer)
Steven Yu
I used to biamp my speakers (Spendor SP1/2s). When I got two amps, I
tried both vertical and horizontal biamping. You would think that one
amp for each channel is the way to go, but my experience indicates the
opposite. The problem is no two "Identical" amps actually are
identical. Each will have its own input/output characteristics,
though the difference may not be huge, but it is there nonetheless.
WHen I hooked them up, I could certainly tell there is some
discontinuity in the sound, though dynamics does improved a bit and
soundstage a little bigger. These sonic improvements are at the
expense of sound integrity and total coherence. When I switched to
using one amp for the mid/high and one for the bass, I still got the
improved dynamics and more expensive soundstage, with much more
coherent midrange and bass response. One thing I also noticed was a
more extended and smoother high frequency. Some people think this is
due to more power reserved for both top and bottom, resulting in a
more effortless sound. BTW, I really don't think it is right to use
two different amps for vertical biamping (if that is what using one
amp for the top and one for the bottom is called). Many people think
using a tube amp for the mid/high and a solid state for the bass is
the way to go. I heard a system like this, and the sound was like the
orchestra being cut in half. Bass walks before the highs. ANother
thing is not all amps benefit from biamping. When I bought the
Symphonic Line RG1, I tried to biamp using another one of my friends.
The gain in sound is really small. I do think that if you have a very
good amp with srong driving power and high current output, biamping
does not worth the extra investment. Maybe you can do (much) better
putting the money for two amps into buying a really good one. Try it
before you put in your money.
--
Steven Yu
Information and Operations Management Dept.
University of Southern Cal
email: h...@usc.edu
Matt Wenham
Noah Rosenthal (nr...@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:
> After bi-wiring my speakers (Paradigm 5seMkIII), I was taking a second
> look at the manuals, and they include two diagrams for bi-amping: one
> for vertical, and one for horizontal. Assuming that you had two of the
> same amps, why would you bother to vertical bi-amp? Is there a sound
> difference between the two? Can anyone shed light on this?
Okay, I can only guess at what you're referring to here. If you bi-amp
with two stereo power amps, you effectively have four power amps in two
boxes. Vertical bi-amping I guess is where you have one box per speaker,
horizontal is where one box handles both tweeters, the other both woofers.
Vertical bi-amping will give better crosstalk measurements (since one amp
box is dedicated to each loudspeaker box) but there will be interaction
between the bass and treble halves of the signal in each amp box.
Horizontal bi-amping keeps treble in one amp box and bass in the other at
the possible expense of increased inter-channel crosstalk.
,
Matt Wenham (:-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~'
The Analogue Addicts Archive, on line at:
http://www.york.ac.uk/~mjgw100/aaa.htm
mdun...@gmail.com
> [ Reposted due to LeRC newsfeed problems. -- jwd ]
>
> look at the manuals, and they include two diagrams for bi-amping: one
> for vertical, and one for horizontal. Assuming that you had two of the
> same amps, why would you bother to vertical bi-amp? Is there a sound
> difference between the two? Can anyone shed light on this?
>
> Noah
Here is the view from 2 ultimate experts in audio amplifier designs
http://av2day.com/2014/05/vertical-bi-amping-two-views-from-experts/
Best
Milos
Peter Wieck
1) Bi-Amping will deliver more total current to the bass drivers than if they were powered from one amp.
2) In the article cited, a statement was made that there was far more energy in the bass than in the treble. Which seems to mitigate towards bi-amping.
3) There is some stuff within the article and elsewhere that suggests that multiple power-supplies are better than a single power-supply of the same aggregate capacity.
So:
a) Let us take the case of two 30-watt amps vs. one 60 watt amp.
b) Let us take the "far more" to be 2 x current required.
c) Let us allow the Peak-to-Average to be 20 dB. Somewhere between Chamber Orchestra and Full Orchestra.
d) let us make the speakers at 85dB - as Maggies were cited in the article.
e) Let us assume that the source used is well recorded and well mastered.
f) Let us assume that the electronics are of excellent quality and fully functional.
The Mid/Tweet will be capped at 100dB without clipping.
If the Mid-Tweet is making 98dB at 20 watts, and the bass needs 2 x the current, the bass will be starving at the available 30 watts.
Whereas a single 60-watt amp will be able to divide the current at a 2:1 basis - 40 watts to the bass, 20 watts to the mid/tweet.
Add these discrepancies to the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony where the P/A is 30 dB (if properly recorded) and bi-amping this way just will not work (nor will the fairly anemic single 60).
The only way this works, horizontal or vertical is if both amps are capable of driving the entirety of the speaker independently. Or the amps are different in capacity but chosen to handle the differing loads. Either is fine, and either is practical, but the utter, complete and irredeemable BS about "power supplies" and such is neither.
Now, on the practicalities of horizontal vs. vertical - I have the capacity to do both, using up to four (4) theoretically identical amps. I will tell you by direct experience that four amps adding up to the same wattage as my single brute-force power amp does not compare to that single amp. Brute has the capacity to send whatever is needed to whatever section of the speaker (Maggies) that needs it at levels approaching the absurd, and handle transients of up to 120 dB without breathing hard, the four smaller units cannot do this.
On bi-wiring, I use 12-gauge 19-strand THHN wire twisted in a drill to about 6 turns per foot. Runs are about 10 feet or so. Seems sufficiently robust not to need bi-wiring. And at ~US$110 per 500' (250' paired) with tax and shipping, not so terribly expensive, either. With the additional virtue of being able to be pulled around corners and across abrasive surfaces without damage.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
~misfit~
"Noah" is still waiting for an answer - he may even be dead!. That said, as
someone who is considering bi-amping my speakers any info is good right now.
Cheers,
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)