Def Tech subs versus Velodyne
Neil Williams
I've been looking for a used Velodyne F1500, but recently came across
the Definitive Technology Powerfield 1800 which seems to run about the
same price used, with somewhat better specs.
I've listened to the Velodyne with my model speakers (ML Aerius), and
liked it. Can anyone comment on how the Def Tech PF-1800 would compare
to the Velodyne for a system that's 50% music and 50% home theatre?
My musical tastes don't generally run to stuff that uses the lower
octaves, except for my predilection for Enya and Cowboy Junkies. What
I liked about the Velodyne was how little it affected the overall tone
of the speakers, so that the opera singers that I love sounded as
wonderful as usual, but the weight was there when I played some Enya.
--
Neil
Nadler
I listened to the DT 1500 and the Velodyne F1500 back to back. The DT
was much louder, but was rather sloppy compared to the F1500,
especially on Enya's Watermark CD. I was a little worried that the
Velodyne wouldn't be loud enough, since I have very efficient speakers
(~105db). Well, it wasn't a problem -- I bought the F1500 and I only
have it set a little over 1!
I was also trying to compare it to the PF1800, but I had a hard time
finding one. The reason I picked it out was because it was the same
price as the Velodyne. Just go listen to the Powerfield 1500 if you
can -- I think the 1800 is just louder (geez!) and plays lower. Or,
you could wait for the Velodyne F1800, which should be out soon :-)!
If you don't need something that plays real low, I also have a NHT
SW2P, which I also recommend you try. It is kind of known as being
better for music, but it is good for movies, also (and costs much
less). I use it on my music system in another room. I really like
Enya and Cowboy Junkies on it (two of my test CDs when looking around
for subs). In fact, I can no longer listen to Cowboy Junkies in my
car on my factory speakers -- it really thrashes the bass! I'd give
it a listen.
Enjoy,
Eric
Gordon Gilbert
On 24-Jul-96 03:48:53, Nadler wrote:
N> I listened to the DT 1500 and the Velodyne F1500 back to back. The DT
N> was much louder, but was rather sloppy compared to the F1500,
N> especially on Enya's Watermark CD. I was a little worried that the
N> Velodyne wouldn't be loud enough, since I have very efficient speakers
Have you considered that perhaps the reason the Definitive
PF-1500 was so much louder (and sloppier) was that the gain knob on
the back was set way too high? It is adjustable. You probably should
have matched levels with the Velodyne to ensure a fair comparison.
The reason I mention this is that I own the Definitive PF-1500
and I'm constantly amazed at how it can keep up with my Carver AL-III
Ribbon speakers. I don't find it "sloppy" at all. I have the gain
set a little less than halfway (it's dependent on your speakers
sensitivity and room size as to where it will need to be set), but if
I turn it up too high (like 280 degrees or more), which is way too
high for my system, it *will* get sloppier. Also, the higher the
crossover setting (it's completely adjustable), the sloppier it will
get (although at least in my room, it doesn't get unpleasant until I
turn it above an 80Hz setting...this could also be highly room
dependent).
Also, room resonances and standing waves can mar a test at a
show room. Were the subs placed in a corner or somewhere else in the
room? Were their relationships in terms of placement generally
different (a couple of feet can make a large difference). Mine is
placed right in the front corner of the room. I get a pretty flat
response there from it.
N> (~105db). Well, it wasn't a problem -- I bought the F1500 and I only
N> have it set a little over 1!
Hey, if you're happy with it, that's great. I'm just curious
as to how they would compare if placement, levels, and crossover
points were closely matched. I've never seen them at the same
dealership locally before to make a close comparison.
uh.......OH!
On Tue, 23 Jul 96 22:48:53 GMT, nad...@ix.netcom.com (Nadler) wrote:
>I was also trying to compare it to the PF1800, but I had a hard time
>finding one. The reason I picked it out was because it was the same
>price as the Velodyne. Just go listen to the Powerfield 1500 if you
>can -- I think the 1800 is just louder (geez!) and plays lower. Or,
>you could wait for the Velodyne F1800, which should be out soon :-)!
Do they still make their ULD series. I liked the ULD 15 much more
than the Foundation series 12" or 15".
>If you don't need something that plays real low, I also have a NHT
>SW2P, which I also recommend you try. It is kind of known as being
>better for music, but it is good for movies, also (and costs much
>less).
The 12" woofer available raw by NHT is pretty amazing itself. If
you're into building, you might look into that too. After getting a
good power amp and crossover, it might not be so economical, but it's
darn good, and fun in the process.
colin
Nadler
In article <4t5755$d...@biosun.harvard.edu>, g...@cantec.com (Gordon Gilbert) wrote:
>On 24-Jul-96 03:48:53, Nadler wrote:
[ quoted text deleted -- rgd ]
> Have you considered that perhaps the reason the Definitive
>PF-1500 was so much louder (and sloppier) was that the gain knob on
>the back was set way too high? It is adjustable. You probably should
>have matched levels with the Velodyne to ensure a fair comparison.
Yes, I definately should have matched levels, but I didn't. I
repeatedly turned down the Definitive, however, and also played the
Velodyne louder than what the Definitive was set at. The were both
right next to each other, along a wall about three or four feet from a
corner. I didn't spend tons of time at the dealer -- I was pretty
dissapointed with the setup. The ceiling tiles shook like crazy, and
the room walls were really vibrating. It wasn't pretty.
From my experience at the dealer, I preferred the Velodyne. Of
course, everyone should try both subs and others for themselves. And
you should evaluate them all in your own room. Admittedly, I was
biased towards the Velodyne before I started looking, due to all of
the favorable reviews (I haven't ever seen it get anything but a
glowing review). Also, everyone that sold both subs recommended the
Velodyne. After problems at the dealer which I mentioned, and some
other dealers that were jerks, I just went ahead and bought the
Velodyne mail order, and I'm glad I did. Your mileage may vary :-).
The Definitive was still a good sub, don't get me wrong. I just liked
the Velodyne better that day.
Eric
Andrew N. Carpenter
Jonathan Foulkes <Foul...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I've only heard the PowerField 1500, and tought that while it was OK
>for theater type applications, or mainly rock music, it totally failed
>on classical and Jazz.
FWIW, the 15" powered subs that are built in to Def. Tech's BP-2000
speakers work quite well on all types of music. (I listen mainly to
classical, but dabble in most of the rest.) Placement of these
speakers is very important, as it making judicious use of the level,
input, and crossover equalization controls on the subs.
I don't know how similar these subs are to the PF1500. They are
built-in to the cabinet of the BP-2000 (sidewise firing -- I have mine
set up to fire toward each other and not into the side walls) and are
powered by 300W amplifiers.
I suspect that the crossover of the speakers, and the placement of
drivers in the cabinet, makes the integration of all the drivers much
better than you'll get by adding on a separate PF1500.
These speakers are marketed as a high end home theater line, but I
encourage those of you out there looking for hybrid audio/home theater
systems to check them out. I've been told that they are often set up
incorrectly at dealers; given their sensitivity to room placement, it
is probably best to audition them at home.
--
_________________________________________________
Andrew Carpenter, phlo...@violet.berkeley.edu
Doctoral Candidate Instructor, Dept. of Philosophy
Dept. of Philosophy, U.C. Berkeley Western Maryland College
fax: (410) 857-8778 Westminster, MD 21157
Jonathan Foulkes
> I've been looking for a used Velodyne F1500, but recently came across
> the Definitive Technology Powerfield 1800 which seems to run about the
> same price used, with somewhat better specs.
>
> I've listened to the Velodyne with my model speakers (ML Aerius), and
> liked it. Can anyone comment on how the Def Tech PF-1800 would compare
> to the Velodyne for a system that's 50% music and 50% home theatre?
Having heard Velodyne ULD-15 and the ML Aerius, and using ULD-18's
with my Sequels, I would give my wholehearted recomendation to
Velodyne. It's low distortion is an excelent match for the clear and
crisp Martin Logans.
I've only heard the PowerField 1500, and tought that while it was OK
for theater type applications, or mainly rock music, it totally failed
on classical and Jazz.
- Jonathan
Nadler
In article <4t4icj$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, co...@iofr.com
(uh.......OH!) wrote:
[ quoted text deleted -- jwd ]
> Do they still make their ULD series. I liked the ULD 15 much more
> than the Foundation series 12" or 15".
As of a few months ago, they still sold the ULD series.
Eric
anizami
[quote deletion - wsr]
Goto www.velodyne.com the company homepage. According to that its
still their "High-End" line.
Gordon Gilbert
On 27-Jul-96 03:41:38, Andrew N. Carpenter had this to say about Re:
Def Tech subs versus Velodyne :
ANC> Jonathan Foulkes <Foul...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>I've only heard the PowerField 1500, and tought that while it was OK
>>for theater type applications, or mainly rock music, it totally failed
>>on classical and Jazz.
ANC> FWIW, the 15" powered subs that are built in to Def. Tech's BP-2000
ANC> speakers work quite well on all types of music. (I listen mainly to
Here's one PF-1500 owner that completely disagrees with Jonathan's
remarks above. I can't believe that he was listening to the same
subwoofer. I use a PF-1500 with Carver Amazing Ribbons and is neither
sloppy nor slow. I'm amazed at how well it can keep up with Carver's
ribbons, which are *very* fast.
In fact, I have a Japanese Anime Soundtrack CD specifically
reccomended to me by a friend for its fast paced bass tracks. I
couldn't believe how fast the last track was moving in the 30Hz octave
range. More to the point, I couldn't believe the sub was keeping up!
I've never heard bass that low a frequency with transients that fast.
I didn't care for the music on this particular disc (I have a *lot* of
Japanese Anime soundtracks because of their *ULTRA-HIGH* sound
quality, most classical in nature...I'll post a list sometime), but it
did make an impressive speed demonstration for bass. This particular
disc was Tenchi Muyo Original Soundtrack Vol. 2 (Pica 1011) in case
anyone's wondering. It's mostly techno sort of music, which is why I
wasn't particular...like I said, most Anime music I buy is Classical,
Easy Listening, or light Pop.
ANC> I don't know how similar these subs are to the PF1500. They are
ANC> built-in to the cabinet of the BP-2000 (sidewise firing -- I have mine
ANC> set up to fire toward each other and not into the side walls) and are
ANC> powered by 300W amplifiers.
ANC> I suspect that the crossover of the speakers, and the placement of
ANC> drivers in the cabinet, makes the integration of all the drivers much
ANC> better than you'll get by adding on a separate PF1500.
I think it will depend on the particular combination, but overall I
think a good match with a regular speaker would produce better bass
results with the PF-1500 since the best location for a subwoofer is in
the corner of the room according to test results I've read about.
With the BP-2000, you're stuck with the subs in the same cabinet as
the rest of the drivers (and they definitely won't sound best in the
corner). As for quality, the PF-1500 has a 36dB Linkwitz-Riley
crossover and a 250 watt amp.
The decision for me came down to which mid-range/tweeter drivers I
preferred. At the time, the BP-2000 didn't exist. I was looking at
the BP-10 and BP-20 as the main speakers. I also considered several
others such as PSB Stratus Gold and Martin Logan Sequel II. For that
general price range, ($1000-3000), I simply didn't think the
Definitive drivers compared to the Carver 48" Dipole Ribbon. In fact,
I preferred its sound even over the Martin Logans, which had very
close timbre/tone match, but didn't image as well. The PSB sounded
good, but it imaged as flat as a pancake in comparision to the dipoles
*or* bipoles. I decided on the subwoofer before the speakers, so
ultimately, for me, it came down to the other drivers.
If the PF-1500 couldn't keep up, the Carver AL-IIIs had bass down to
30Hz and I could always just use the sub for movies. Luckily, it
matched *so* well, I actually disabled the Carver 10" woofers and
crossed straight to the 48" ribbons, leaving only 1 crossover region.
I don't regret buying either. The sound is better than *anything* I
heard at the hi-fi shops I visited. Both speakers were a bargain, in
my opinion.
I did buy Definitive BP-2 Surrounds, though. I used them as the main
speakers before I got the AL-IIIs and I was *very* impressed with
their performance with the PF-1500 sub, given their bargain price at
only $500 a pair.
ANC> These speakers are marketed as a high end home theater line, but I
ANC> encourage those of you out there looking for hybrid audio/home theater
ANC> systems to check them out. I've been told that they are often set up
ANC> incorrectly at dealers; given their sensitivity to room placement, it
ANC> is probably best to audition them at home.
That's a problem with a lot of speakers at dealers. Bipolars and
especially dipolars are particularly picky about placement.
--
- Gordon Gilbert | g...@uakron.edu | g...@cantec.com -
[ signature chop -- jwd ]
PSiu89449
As an owner of a ULD18-II, I had been following this thread with keen
interest. Since proper sub-woofer set up is complicated at best, and
messages I'd read sounds inconclusive, I'd just purchased a unit of
PowerField 1800 to settle the score for myself. In a week or so, I'll
be able to give them a shoot-out in my own music room. Who knows,
there may be a subwoofer for sale in the net soon. Perhaps even two if
a pair Bag End 18" should come my way.
The moral of this story is not to rely too much on other people's
opinion when it comes to sub-woofers. Try a few for yourself in your
own system. The learning experience on proper sub-woofer setup may
pay for the trouble of trying them.
Best Regard
Paul Siu
PS: I'm a true believer of multiple sub-woofers.
NormnBates
I tried a Velodyne F1000, which was recommended to me by Magnepan,
alongside a PF1500. My mains are Magnepan 1.5's. There was no
comparison. The Definitive was absolutely awful. I tested both,
using the dinosaur footfalls from "Jurassic Park". With the Velodyne,
the sound was tight and crisp. The PF1500 was slow and mushy, as if
the dinosaurs were walking in oatmeal. I think Definitive
Technology's marketing abilities outstrip their ability to build
quality subwoofers.
With both music and theatre, it was very obvious when the PF1500
kicked in. The Velodyne was seamless.
I would also like to point out that I had my heart set on the PF1500
before I tried it. If there was any bias, it was against Velodyne.
Definitive Technology's swell brochures sure fooled me.
Both subs were tested in the same location, and I screwed around with
crossover points and volume, so don't tell me I didn't give the PF1500
a fair trial. The quality of the sound was so poor, I would not be
satisfied even if I only used the sub for movies. If I was an
eighteen-year-old kid who sat around listening to rap all day, though,
the PF1500 would be a solid first choice.