Thanks
Basically (rustling sound of flame-proof suit being donned!) :
Linn - OK if you are going for a vinyl based system only. Makes a good
record player but can't be used with radio and CD sources, which are
shrill and nasty if the system is properly balanced for the LP12. The
electronics are generally overhyped and not a patch on Naim. Linnies
are the only ones who actually have a name - does this tell you
something? Not so much about real quality in the CD age as religious
fanaticism based on the original LP12 having been at the forefront of
the subjective revolution, but that was 25 years ago and the rest of
the world has moved on.
Meridian - They know more about digital audio than anybody else and
make superb systems based on digital input active speakers. Not cheap
but of quite remarkable musical ability. I'm not sure how well they
would match to the Totem 1. It does seem a bit bizarre to start with
the speakers and work back IMO. House sound is very musical and
detailed but a little laid back so often does not impress in the
showroom.
Naim - Excellent high-end electronics which will match into most
systems, should be no problem with the Totems. Not the most powerful
units on paper, but nobody who uses them complains of inability to
drive speakers. Always a safe choice and deservedly classic designs.
The SBL is probably better than the Totem and is certainly easier to
site, being a boundary design.
Audiolab - Can't imagine why you left them out! Best tuner on the
market, best CD transport, top-class DAC, excellent preamp and power
amps, what more do you want?
Regards
Stewart
--
Stewart Pinkerton | If you can't measure what you're making,
A S P Consulting | how do you know when you've got it made?
(44) 1509 880112 |
> I am planning to upgrade my present rig with an all
> Meridian-or-Linn-or-Naim system. The speakers that I will be mating
> with components are Totem Model 1s. My source collection is totally
> CD. I am not interested in mixing or matching, so if there are any
> dyed-to-the-wool "Linnies", "Naimies", or "Meridianies" out there,
> lend me your opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of your systems.
Well all three are pretty good. Personally, I prefer the Naim sound.
The Linn is too harsh and the Meridian too smooth for me. On a
different note, I would not buy a Linn for two reasons:-
1) reliability seems to be apalling
2) Linn's new sales policy is not to my liking (Linn will not allow
their dealers to sell Naim equipment!
Just to let you know I have a CD3 and am very happy with it and am not
thinking about any CD upgrading nonsense. However, I may upgrade my
rotel amplifier to a naim nait (that's great as well!)
Have a good time choosing
Jon
--
Jon McGuire ---------------------------
Power Technology Life is not a rehearsal!!!
PowerGen (UK) ---------------------------
E-mail Jon.M...@powertech.co.uk
>I am planning to upgrade my present rig with an all
>Meridian-or-Linn-or-Naim system. The speakers that I will be mating
>with components are Totem Model 1s. My source collection is totally
>CD. I am not interested in mixing or matching, so if there are any
>dyed-to-the-wool "Linnies", "Naimies", or "Meridianies" out there,
>lend me your opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of your systems.
Although I have a "mixed and matched" system it does include the
Meridian 508 CD player and the Totem 1 speakers. I am not all that
familar with the Meridian preamps and power amps but I do believe they
are among the very best in the area of digital. This might be a
factor since you state you will playing CDs only. I assume you have
had the Totems for a while and are familar with their sound. I think
they could be made to sound a bit harsh with an overly bright sounding
system. I think that both Naim and Linn might be a bit on the bright
side compared to the Meridian...although I have heard the Totems
powered by a small Naim amp and it sounded fine...maybe just a touch
crisp but very musical. I love the Meridian CD player and would
recommend it highly. It has a very mellow quality and a tonal
accuracy that is very musical. If this in indicative of the Meridian
"sound" then I think an all Meridian system would work well. I have
talked with the folks at Meridian on a couple of occasions and have
found them to be very helpful and friendly.
I assume you will eventually audition each of these "systems" in your
home with your Totems 1s. I will be interested to hear your
impressions upon hearing the different systems.
Randy
> I am planning to upgrade my present rig with an all
> Meridian-or-Linn-or-Naim system. The speakers that I will be mating
> with components are Totem Model 1s. My source collection is totally
> CD. I am not interested in mixing or matching, so if there are any
> dyed-to-the-wool "Linnies", "Naimies", or "Meridianies" out there,
> lend me your opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of your systems.
Firstly I would like to know why you are against mixing different
makes of equipment. A good dealer will let you listen to as many
different combinations as you like, and let you choose the components
that you think suit each other the best.
Secondly I don't know anything about your speakers so I can't really
comment.
I use a Meridian 500 and 563 cd combo with a Naim 72 and 180 amp
combo. I like the way they compliment each other.
The Naim amps are VERY dynamic and a little bright sounding, an all
Naim system I found was too bright so thats why I found the rich sound
of the Meridian cd complimentary.
Meridian cd players I like a lot, less cd sounding than most with
great bass, but when I listened to their entire system I found it a
little uninspiring. Don't get me wrong, I thought it was good but just
didn't have that something that made me say "I must buy this".
Linn equipment. MMMMM. Well I would never say it's crap, but I
REALLY DISLIKE ITS COLOURED PRESENTATION. I think it's just a personal
thing, I find their equipment sounds unrealistic and bland. A lot
would probobly disagree with that and even point out that Naim amps
sound coloured. Thats probably true, but there is something about the
Naim stuff which really involves me in the music.
In conclusion.
If you go for the really dynamic sound of the all Naim system, be sure
your speakers counteract its bright tendancies. Otherwise I would
highly recommend it. Also dont be put off by the lowish power outputs
of the amps. You'll be very surprised how loud and well they drive
speakers.
An all Meridian system would be very listenable and probably give good
long term satisfaction. I think their cd players beat the Naims but
the entire system is not the last word in excitement.
Linn. mmmmm. Burn it.
I would still recommend mixing different equipment makes. You can get
the best of all worlds then. All equipment has its pros and cons.
Mixing it means you can balance these pros and cons to your tastes.
The best advice I think is to go down to a good Audio dealer and
listen to all of the equipment for yourself and make your own mind
up. Its your money after all and lets face it, what I think sounds
good is not neccessarily what you think sounds good.
Alan
> Well all three are pretty good. Personally, I prefer the Naim
> sound. The Linn is too harsh and the Meridian too smooth for me.
> On a different note, I would not buy a Linn for two reasons:-
>
> 1) reliability seems to be apalling
> 2) Linn's new sales policy is not to my liking (Linn will not allow
> their dealers to sell Naim equipment!
[ quoted text deleted -- jwd ]
Must jump in here to say that neither point number 1 nor 2 that are
mentioned below are true, in any way whatsoever.
Re: #1. As a US dealer, I have sold TONS of Linn gear, and find it to
be the most reliable brand I sell. I sell most of the brands
mentioned in this newsgroup.
Re:#2. Though I CHOOSE not to sell Naim gear, many of my friends who
are dealers in the US do sell both.
Perhaps things are different in the UK?? As far as which is best for
anyone sonically, the answer there seems pretty easy. Listen for
yourself.
--
Mark
I have recently audited some Naim components with my current
setup. The Nait integrated and 92/90 combo seem to be comparable with
the Intek. However, by swaping the Pioneer/AA DDE with the entry
level Naim CD player, the music really opens up, better soundstaging
and musically more involving. The Naim works really well in an all
Naim system.
Well, I have not audited the Meridian amp, but I like their CD player.
They sounded smooth and sweet.
In short, I personally prefer the Naim system than Linn, firstly I
have lost the confident in its quality. Some of the newer product from
Linn seem to overly warm, so much so that lacking some clarity in the
music.
Have fun choosing your dream system.
CY Wong
First of all I would recomend you to listen for yourself and make up
your own mind. This should be my only advice but heaving read the
answers so far I just have to even the scoore for you.
Unfortionally I haven4t heard the speakers you mentioned but do have
quite large experience of the yhree brands you stated. I have owned a
Naim Nait and after that a Naim NAC 72, Hi-CAP, NAP 250 combo. I have
always (at least for some 10+ years or so) been interested in music
and music reproduction so when CD became rid of it4s early flaws and
faults I set out to by a CD player that could match my preferences. So
I have heard Meridian CDs and combinations from $2000 to approx $12000
and they are pretty good but there is more to music then a nice
presentation. Music are feelings and Meridian equipment does not let
the feelings throuh. Linn and Naim worked together for over ten years
because at Linn they felt that they where the only amplifier maker
that undestanded the demands put on an amplifier driving a loudspeaker
so that the result in the air is comparable to live music. Eventually
the research staff at Linn felt that they could do better. And they
finally did, some seven or eight years ago. Not in all aspects, at the
time, but in sheer musical values their amplifiers delivered something
even Naim amplifiers were lacking, and that is the ability to deliver
the musical feel in the recorded material to the listener, better than
their competitor did. And the development has continued so that today
I would say that no system irrespecive of price can compete with even
a modesly priced Linn system in that aspect. And the best Linn systems
offer outstanding perfomance in most aspects with all kinds of music.
The comments on Linn equipment from the other writers just shows their
lack of knowledge in present Linn equipment.
Good luck in the hi-fi jungle (it sure is)! Stefan Eriksson, SWEDEN
>Linn and Naim worked together for over ten years because at Linn they
>felt that they where the only amplifier maker that undestanded the
>demands put on an amplifier driving a loudspeaker so that the result
>in the air is comparable to live music.
Correct.
>Eventually the research staff at Linn felt that they could do better.
No, actually Ivor Tiefenbrun got another of his regular attacks of
egomania and decided to cut Naim out of the loop to boost Linn
profits.
>And they finally did, some seven or eight years ago. Not in all
>aspects, at the time, but in sheer musical values their amplifiers
>delivered something even Naim amplifiers were lacking, and that is
>the ability to deliver the musical feel in the recorded material to
>the listener, better than their competitor did.
Linn amps are universally coloured and hard, more comparable to
mass-market Japanese than true high-end sound. Linn are good at
mechanical engineering but have never amounted to squat in
electronics.
>And the development has continued so that today I would say that no
>system irrespecive of price can compete with even a modesly priced
>Linn system in that aspect. And the best Linn systems offer
>outstanding perfomance in most aspects with all kinds of music. The
>comments on Linn equipment from the other writers just shows their
>lack of knowledge in present Linn equipment.
Pretty sweeping statement from someone with no direct contact with the
other posters! Also rubbish in my case, since I regularly listen to
new Linn gear in the hopes that they will eventually produce something
worth listening to. The current production is of reasonable quality in
absolute terms but is priced about 50% above its real sonic
competition and no way comparable to Naim. I am more than familiar
with the sound of the Majik, Kairn, Klout, Mimik, Karik, Numerik and
Kremlin - out of the whole bunch there is not in my opinion a single
item which is better than others at half the price from such makers as
Audiolab and Naim. The aggressive and evangelical attitude encouraged
in Linn dealers does not help.
Tim
>On a different note, I would not buy a Linn for two reasons:-
>
>1) reliability seems to be apalling
>2) Linn's new sales policy is not to my liking (Linn will not allow
>their dealers to sell Naim equipment!
>
1) All of the Linn dealers I have known over the years found Linn Products
to be the most reliable they had ever dealt with.
If memory serves, I believe Linn has won an award something like five
years running for reliability AND overall dealer satisfaction in the US
industry journal "Inside Track."
2) Many US Linn dealers choose not to cary 'competitive' lines in any
price catagory, they take the position of recommending their 'best offer'
at any particular price point to all of their customers>>>
"We, as your designated hi-fi experts, have found that for a *fill in the
blank* component, at *fill in the blank* price, the best product on the
market is *fill in the blank.* They see that research role as part of the
service they provide to the customer.
I understand many hi-fi enthusiasts might find that type assumption
offensive, but many Linn dealers have opted not to market their shop to
the 'hi-fi-hobbiest' crowd. (Note the harsh criticism Linn has incurred in
this thread compared to the other manufacturers in question.
- which might mean *electing* not carrying Naim or some other line...but
to my knowledge Linn has never demanded a reseller drop any line, no
matter how disgraceful or how competitive to their own product.
In my personal (US market) experience, they have never been shy about
recommendations for a shop's overall marketing vision, which could
certainly be interpreted as #2 above, but every suggestion I've heard was
always followed up by "Because we found this works better, for example
note Exhibits A, B & C..." and also "But of course it's your shop and do
what you think is best, we just want to help.." So I always chose to
accept that advice as worthy of my consideration.
Call it my own humble Canadian Nickel.
>2) Many US Linn dealers choose not to cary 'competitive' lines in any
>price catagory, they take the position of recommending their 'best offer'
>at any particular price point to all of their customers>>>
>"We, as your designated hi-fi experts, have found that for a *fill in the
>blank* component, at *fill in the blank* price, the best product on the
>market is *fill in the blank.* They see that research role as part of the
>service they provide to the customer.
>I understand many hi-fi enthusiasts might find that type assumption
>offensive, but many Linn dealers have opted not to market their shop to
>the 'hi-fi-hobbiest' crowd. (Note the harsh criticism Linn has incurred in
>this thread compared to the other manufacturers in question.
Hmmmm. Yes, OK but isn't it funny that to a Linn dealer the 'best
product on the market' is ALWAYS a Linn? Other 'patronising' dealers,
and we all know LOTS of them :-), have equal experience and ability
but favour a wide range of products, not just one manufacturers entire
line.
> - which might mean *electing* not carrying Naim or some other line...but
>to my knowledge Linn has never demanded a reseller drop any line, no
>matter how disgraceful or how competitive to their own product.
This may be true in the US, it's certainly not in the UK. It was done
under the guise of 'providing a better service to our customers' but
that has widely been seen as a legal get-out clause.
>In my personal (US market) experience, they have never been shy about
>recommendations for a shop's overall marketing vision, which could
>certainly be interpreted as #2 above, but every suggestion I've heard was
>always followed up by "Because we found this works better, for example
>note Exhibits A, B & C..." and also "But of course it's your shop and do
>what you think is best, we just want to help.." So I always chose to
>accept that advice as worthy of my consideration.
Yeah....... Followed by "We've been very disappointed that you have
continued to recommend Brand X despite the fact that Linn is so
clearly superior, it's your shop of course but perhaps you're not the
sort of person we want to be selling our products".
Happy listening!
>I am planning to upgrade my present rig with an all
>Meridian-or-Linn-or-Naim system. The speakers that I will be mating
>with components are Totem Model 1s. My source collection is totally
>CD. I am not interested in mixing or matching, so if there are any
>dyed-to-the-wool "Linnies", "Naimies", or "Meridianies" out there,
>lend me your opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of your systems.
I don't wish to take sides in this debate! ;-)
BUT there is a point that so far I have not seen raised. There is a
certain inconsistency in your post - you are not interested in mix 'n
match yet you insist on a different speaker! If there is one common
factor in these three companies it is the integration of their
speakers into the 'system' - all three are proponents of active drive
(Meridian digital) and will produce more than the sum of their parts
(especially Naim) if used in 'context '.
In the excerpts below, the double caret are quotes of my earlier post, and
the single carets are responses from Stewart Pinkerton, an intelligent
gentleman who I am sure dressses well and is kind to the elderly. He also
has experiences in the UK which are different from my own in the states.
He has shared his ideas politely which I took as an invitation to continue
doing the same. I am certainly learning something I didn't know before
and expect I shall learn much more as we progress.
In article <4okoa5$6...@agate.berkeley.edu>, pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk
(Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>Hmmmm. Yes, OK but isn't it funny that to a Linn dealer the 'best
>product on the market' is ALWAYS a Linn? Other 'patronising' dealers,
>and we all know LOTS of them :-), have equal experience and ability
>but favour a wide range of products, not just one manufacturers entire
>line.
Yah, a point, to be sure, : )
BUT from a business standpoint I have to admit that I find that Marketing
Philosophy very appealing.
To some enthusiasts, there is simply the need for "Greatest Sound" and any
cost (reliability, cost, room aesthetics, ease of use, etc etc.) but IMHO
there are a great many more consumers out there who slide down that
spectrum and also require other features in their purchases - each one to
their own personal levels, of course, but I think many US Linn dealers
have found that both for their purchase from the manufacturer as well as
for the end user purchase from the dealer, on balance Linn products offer
the best value for the dollar.
* Linn can be sold purely on the basis of sound quality, and in the US,
that has always been the one point driven by the US distributor's reps
"Listen to it, if it sounds better it is, if it doesn't it's not, end of
story" (of course many people don't like it, but many do, and puchase
Linn hi-fi solely on this basis)
*Linn can be sold for aethetic demands (compared to avg. US hi-end
products, wich generally are huge, ugly, and have detailed set-up
requirements) The Linn boxes are a much more pleasant alternative to some
people, and can be installed stacked up on top of each other, built into
the wall, etc., if people don't want to see anything.
*Linn has very high reliability, and when something does go wrong
(something *always* goes wrong eventually), Audiophile Systems (the US
Importer/Distributer) has been very good & quick at reacting.
The points above are all worth real money to real people, and all are
common to the Linn line in general, not particual products, so I believe
it is *possible* to honestly and confidently recommend a complete product
line on those bases instead of picking and choosing. For that matter, it
is the dealer's perrogative to avoid an entire line using the same
reasoning.
My personal opinion (have I qualified myself enough yet? ;-) Is that
those are valid resons for recommending Linn, which I do.
>> - which might mean *electing* not carrying Naim or some other
line...but
>>to my knowledge Linn has never demanded a reseller drop any line, no
>>matter how disgraceful or how competitive to their own product.
>
>This may be true in the US, it's certainly not in the UK. It was done
>under the guise of 'providing a better service to our customers' but
>that has widely been seen as a legal get-out clause.
>
several years ago Linn hi-fi did go on about setting a new dealer
'standard' in the US, and did reduce their roles. But it was not based on
competing lines - the thinking was presented as "practices such as x, y, &
z are attributed to business success in this market. We would like to be
successful, and we think this is the best way to go about it. If you
agree with us, great, let's work together, and if you don't agree with us,
also great, then let's realize it now and go our separate ways, best of
luck."
None of the business issues they were discussing hinged on carrying other
product lines - they were all issues that would make a shop run better
with the best line of products (which they obviously felt were their own.)
These were issues such as - using a computer database to track your
sales, services, maintenance, upgrades, etc. using single spealer
demostration rooms and otherwise performing realistic, objective, and
accesible listening demonstrations. They also (*Officially*, I don't
think it was ever strictly enforced) required a dealer to sell only those
items that they had on demonstration - if you can't show it, you can't
sell it. that might sound like somewhat of a stong arm-tactic to
non-dealers, but it must be compared to other vendors who often require a
new dealer to buy "one to show and one to go" of their expensive or
boat-anchor products.
Linn wasn't requiring anybody buy anything. But if a customer walked in
off the street wanting a great deal on the $50,000 system s/he must have
heard it somewhere, and the store that did the work is entitled to the
sale.
>>In my personal (US market) experience, they have never been shy about
>>recommendations for a shop's overall marketing vision, which could
>>certainly be interpreted as #2 above, but every suggestion I've heard
was
>>always followed up by "Because we found this works better, for example
>>note Exhibits A, B & C..." and also "But of course it's your shop and
do
>>what you think is best, we just want to help.." So I always chose to
>>accept that advice as worthy of my consideration.
>
>Yeah....... Followed by "We've been very disappointed that you have
>continued to recommend Brand X despite the fact that Linn is so
>clearly superior, it's your shop of course but perhaps you're not the
>sort of person we want to be selling our products".
>Happy listening!
>--
>
>Stewart Pinkerton | If you can't measure what you're making,
>A S P Consulting | how do you know when you've got it made?
>(44) 1509 880112 |
I have never personally heard this said (once again, I am an American
mouse, my experience is limited, yabba dabba doo disclaimer...)
*However,* since we're having the conversation, as a business person I
could put myself into this hypothetical in the position of a rep dealing
with a reseller who continues to carry a product which I feel doesn't
'fit-in' with mine. If the dealer can't explain to me why s/he needs to
be purchasing both products, something is wrong with the picture. If it's
something that #REALLY# blows, maybe this person can't find their butt
with both hands and is in danger of misrepresenting my product and doing
harm to my business. Perhaps they have my box on the floor to sell
against, and aren't going to bring me any business. It is a mutual
arangement, and if business is not going well, I will start looking for
'warning signs' about what's going wrong, and try to fix it. Eventually,
it might mean severing a business relationship - unless it's mutually
beneficial, it's doomed.
Anyway, it sounds like things may have been quite different in the UK - I
know that in the US these 'standards' didn't hold - there are many dealers
who never had or will have a single speaker demonstration area, and
continue to be in good standing. So I won't argue about that which I
haven't experienced, but I will say that for my taste, business philosphy
etc, I wish they had stuck to those guns and even worked it up higher.
Just like with everything else, it your money, If you don't like it don't
buy it. I bought it, I still like it.
Cheers, regards, and good gravy.
>Note: There is no bickering, flaming, or reference to bodily functions in
>the discussion below. We're just having a discussion about business, feel
>free to join in.
>In the excerpts below, the double caret are quotes of my earlier post, and
>the single carets are responses from Stewart Pinkerton, an intelligent
>gentleman who I am sure dressses well and is kind to the elderly. He also
>has experiences in the UK which are different from my own in the states.
>He has shared his ideas politely which I took as an invitation to continue
>doing the same. I am certainly learning something I didn't know before
>and expect I shall learn much more as we progress.
Nice to have a reasoned debate on this sort of thing, your experience
and approach seem perfectly rational and I can appreciate the logic of
your arguments. I still don't like the 'Linn Sound' but of course that's
a matter of personal taste, the basic quality of the gear is fine.
Incidentally, I'm not sure my parents would necessarily agree with your
kind comments :-)
Happy listening.
Stewart
> I am planning to upgrade my present rig with an all
> Meridian-or-Linn-or-Naim system. The speakers that I will be mating
> with components are Totem Model 1s. My source collection is totally
> CD. I am not interested in mixing or matching, so if there are any
> dyed-to-the-wool "Linnies", "Naimies", or "Meridianies" out there,
> lend me your opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of your systems.
Thanks for starting an interesting thread. Actually I don't think you
will go far far wrong with any of the three choices. They're all high
quality and religion aside will all deliver a satisfying musical
experience. You will probably find the choice will rest more on
styling, ergonomics and so forth.
Having said that I must declare an extreme fondness for Meridian
systems and feel this would probably have the edge in an all-digital
set-up. I still have and enjoy a early 80's system with 100 series and
M2 active speakers. A few months ago the control unit failed in one
channel and my local dealer fixed it in a few days. That speaks for
the reliability of the product.
More recently I've moved into a 500-series system with 500, 563, 565
and 562V. This has proved highly satisfying and I'm now seeking
management approval for the digital speakers.
There's only one drawback - these software based products are
extremely complex, and the documentation is absolutely hopeless.
Unless you are very keen on endless twiddling to get the system set up
right, make sure your dealer knows what he's doing and is commited to
assist after the sale.
cheers and good luck
PFT
> I will buy more Linn in the future. Am I a sick 'Linnie'? Maybe
> so, but the music through it moves me, and isn't that what really
> matters most? Best to let your ears be the judge of things. See
> how involved you get in the music. Ignore the comments from those
> who simply bash a company's reputation for, really, no good reason
> other than jealousy.
I agree, I am building a more modest Linn system, but even an entry
level system from *any* of these needs to be judged solely by the
enjoyment gained from listening to music through the stuff. Nobody
should say "buy this or that" but merely "include this on your
shortlist".
For the same sort of money I could buy an equivalent audiolab or naim
system, but I enjoy the Linn system more. For me to choose otherwise,
simply because Linn equipment is not receiving the same critical
reviews would be to cheat myself.