* Opinions Please: Rega Planet CD Player
John Allen
I am replacing my aging CD Player. I have been directed toward
the Rega Planet but can find little info and so far no ads or reviews.
Is it a tubed unit? Are there any reviews in Sensible Sound,
Stereophile, Audio or Stereo Review (I have access to all back
copies)?
I would especially like to hear comments from anyone whom has
recently auditioned one or owns one. Steve Zip..... in Florida offers
an exceptional deal on them but I would like some background as there
is nowhere to audition one where I live.
I have Legacy Focus mains, and Legacy solid state amps, preamp
and Steradian Environmental Processor. To date I have not purchased a
DAC. Does the Rega Planet require a DAC? Does a DAC make that much
difference with one?
I would also like to hear from anyone having experience with
the AMC players (tubed and solid state) and their budget DAC offered
in Audio Advisor. Any good? All hipe?
I am on a budget and the $700 to $800 is about all I will have
this time around. Any and all comments and suggestions would be
greatly appreciated!!!
Cheers,
John Allen
Mesa, (damn it's hot!!!) Arizona.
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo)
John Allen wrote:
> I am replacing my aging CD Player. I have been directed toward
> the Rega Planet but can find little info and so far no ads or reviews.
They were in last month's FI Magazine and and in last month's Audio
Cheapskate column in Stereophile magazine.
> Is it a tubed unit? Are there any reviews in Sensible Sound,
> Stereophile, Audio or Stereo Review (I have access to all back
> copies)?
It is solid state, not tubes. It was not reviewed by Sensible Sound &
likely won't be in the near future - since the demand is huge and the
supply is not.
> I would especially like to hear comments from anyone whom has
> recently auditioned one or owns one. Steve Zip..... in Florida offers
> an exceptional deal on them but I would like some background as there
> is nowhere to audition one where I live.
We accept returns on our purchases, so one could easily buy it and
SAFELY mak up there own mind :)
> I have Legacy Focus mains, and Legacy solid state amps, preamp
> and Steradian Environmental Processor. To date I have not purchased a
> DAC. Does the Rega Planet require a DAC?
No! It is a full function CD Player, that has an excellent BURR-BROWN
DAC built in.
>Does a DAC make that much difference with one?
Unless you wanted to spend an exhorbitant amount of money for modest
sonic gains, the built in DAC sounds glorious.
> I would also like to hear from anyone having experience with
> the AMC players (tubed and solid state) and their budget DAC offered
> in Audio Advisor. Any good? All hipe?
Hype, poorer build quality, and miserable resale value.
> I am on a budget and the $700 to $800 is about all I will have
> this time around. Any and all comments and suggestions would be
> greatly appreciated!!!
The REGA is a winner.
Here is paraphrasing of the magazine articles: We're telling you that
this incredible CD Player breaks all the molds! Roy Gandi set the
audio world on fire twenty-two years ago when he first came out with
the Rega Planar line of turntables. When Rega finally decided to
manufacture their first digital product, they knew it had to be not
just good, it had to be better than any other player under a grand.
So, first they engaged Sony to supply a unique Post Conversion Filter.
Then they worked with BURR-BROWN for three years to design the D to A
converter that is unique to Rega! This is not an off the shelf chip,
but rather, a chip with analog-like sound in mind. The Rega Planet's
transport section is also unique. It is a top loader with the whole
top section housing the viscously damped disc stabilizer for more
accurate readings of the digital information on the discs. Rega tops
it off with a very functional, and ergonomically very well designed
remote control. This player competes with the big boys, folks! This
terrific CD Player is competing with the Meridians and the Accuphase
players that are three to five times the price. There is nothing in
its price range that is even close! Stereophile's chieftain of
chintz, the audio cheapskate Sam Tellig, had this to say, "Everything
about the Rega Planet is superbly thought out!" OK, so it is a nice
player, Sam, but how does the dang thing sound? "Astonishingly good,
considering the reasonable price. Like Rega's RB-300 tonearm, the
Rega Planet is one of the biggest bargains in hi-fi, and for many of
the same reasons; it is not over-engineered or over built. There is
no bs about it! There is astonishing value for the money here, and
the unit is an ergonomic delight! Simple. Elegant. Solid. To see this
player and to use this player is to want it!" COME on Sam! What
about the sound! "The Rega Planet produces a rich, full bodied
dynamic sound There is much more sense of rhythmic pace, more of the
foundation under the music than there is with, say, the Marantz
CD-63SE. The Rega Planet boogies!" "The Rega Planet offers a smooth,
grainless sound, the player sounds neither bass shy nor bass heavy."
So, Stevie-boy (as my friend Harold would say) what's the deal? OK,
glad you asked! The Planet retails for only $799, but as usual, we
have a deal! Get the Planet before July 1st, and we will throw in a
Chesky CD, a pair of Straightwire Interconnects to hook this bad boy
up, and shipping, if you have the misfortune to live outside of our
hometown in Miami Shores, Florida. Oh, by the way, the Rega Planet
also comes with a coax digital output for those who feel like trying
to upgrade its already sensational sound! It is a terrific transport,
and we already tried it with our Camelot Uther and Audio Logic Model
34 DACs with terrific results. So, whatcha' waiting for? You want the
best digital sound this side of five grand? You want the most
beautiful player this side of five grand? You wanna be the talk of the
town? Get Rega Planet!
NEWSFLASH: Fi Magazine has just reviewed the Planet in their July
issue, which appeared on our doorstep just a few hours ago. About
build quality they said, "This player has a reassuring feeling of
solidity in general amongst under $1000 CD Players. ...OK, the player
looked good and it was solidly put together and all, but how's it
sound?" Funny, I was going to ask him that! "In short, the Planet
provides the most enjoyable CD sound I have ever heard around here -
it is a powerful statement of the possibilities of the prevailing
technology guided by good taste and worthwhile purpose." Here's the
clincher, "When I took on this review assignment I decided to send
this sucker back if I didn't like it. As it turns out, I am buying
the review sample because this is the first CD Player that really
makes me want to play CD's, just when I was beginning to think I'd
never see that day!"
Cheers
Zip
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138
Gallo Acoustics, Cabasse, N.E.A.R., Energy & Veritas, NHT, Dunlavy,
DH Cones, Camelot, Audible Illusions, Kinergetics,, Carver, Shakti,
Sound Dynamics, NSM, ESP, Rega, PASS Labs, Parasound, Solid Steel,
Ron S 993
John,
I have recently added a Rega Planet to my system, which consists of a
Sonic Frontiers Line 2 preamp and Power 2 amp driving Chapman T7
speakers.
I was very impressed with the Planet as soon as I first heard one,
and it has worked well in my system so far. Very smooth, natural
sound- detailed without being analytical. Really nice high end
response- none of the palpable, unnatural sharp edges some units in
this price range have. Also, the design of the unit is an excellent
example of elegant simplicity. It is a one box player- no outboard
DAC required, however a coaxial digital output is provided in case you
want to add one later. No tubes. Rega contracted with Sony for the
transport, and worked with Burr-Brown to design the analog stages.
Very nicely finished aluminum castings make up the case, with a
top-loading transport. Built like a fine sports car- very purposeful
and without a lot of needless extras. I don't think you'll be
disappointed if you try the Planet in your system. In the June 1997
Stereophile, Sam Tellig does a short review of the Rega Planet, and he
was very impressed. Gave it his vote for Digital Component of 1997.
Ron S.
Miguelito
> Is it a tubed unit?
No.
> Are there any reviews in Sensible Sound, Stereophile, Audio or Stereo
> Review (I have access to all back copies)?
I've seen a review in Audio Ideas Guide (the latest issue I
believe). I also think that Stereophile did some overview of it though
I don't think it's a full review (I'm not subscribed so I cannot give
you dates).
I'm sure it's a very pleasing to listen to player. My advice is to
borrow it form a dealer and listen... listen... listen... If it makes
you want to listen to music rather than make you think 'did I listen
this or that' then it's worth buying. If it leaves you cold then get
onto something else.
Miguel
Henry Pasternack
People thinking of buying a Rega Planet ought to listen very
carefully to it before buying, and try hard not to get caught up in
the hype surrounding this player. Underneath the funky and admittedly
impressive exterior lurks a flimsy transport that looks exactly like
something I'd expect to see in a $129 Sony portable player. The rest
of the interior construction is equally underwhelming. Don't assume
that you're getting Mercedes-Benz robustness through and through with
the Planet. Sometimes, beauty is only skin deep.
Sonically, the Planet is a distinct compromise. It is warm,
smooth, and inoffensive. Listen carefully and you will hear the
familiar digital artifacts, artfully disguised under a layer of
"vinyl-like" coloration. What you don't get is an LP's startling
sense of "information retrieval" or the big, open, jaw-dropping sound
of a top-notch CD player or turntable.
I like vinyl, but I also like digital (in principle). What I don't
like about digital are the hashy artifacts I hear in most CD players.
If one could get rid of those distortions, in my opinion, CD would
absolutely destroy vinyl in head-to- head sonic competition. What the
Planet does is cover up the nasty sonics. In the process, it covers
up some of the music. It's that simple.
Popping the covers on the Planet after listening to it, I studied
the converter circuitry. Without getting into the technical details,
the impression I got of the design was very much in line with my
listening evaluation.
I wanted to like the Planet. For the first five or ten minutes, I
was taken in. After that, I kept asking myself, "Where's the beef?"
Sorry, this CD player is not as good as people keep saying it is. One
reviewer said it's equivalent to players costing twice as much. For
twice as much money six months ago, I could have bought a CAL Icon
HDCD, a player that just blows the Planet away.
The Planet is a lot like a cute little puppy dog. You see it and
you want to take it home. Just don't forget to line the floor of the
listening room with newspaper.
-Henry
Henry Pasternack
Doug Weinfield
OK, Harry, I'll take your word for it. After all, it is your experience
<grin>. But tell me, in that price range, what do YOU think comes close
to the Rega Planet?
Best,
Doug Weinfield
> I wanted to like the Planet. For the first five or ten minutes, I
> was taken in. After that, I kept asking myself, "Where's the beef?"
> Sorry, this CD player is not as good as people keep saying it is. One
> reviewer said it's equivalent to players costing twice as much. For
> twice as much money six months ago, I could have bought a CAL Icon
> HDCD, a player that just blows the Planet away.
>
> The Planet is a lot like a cute little puppy dog. You see it and
> you want to take it home. Just don't forget to line the floor of the
> listening room with newspaper.
>
> -Henry
--
You can learn to fly, but that cocoon has got to go.
Doug Weinfield
> I wanted to like the Planet. For the first five or ten minutes, I
> was taken in. After that, I kept asking myself, "Where's the beef?"
> Sorry, this CD player is not as good as people keep saying it is. One
> reviewer said it's equivalent to players costing twice as much. For
> twice as much money six months ago, I could have bought a CAL Icon
> HDCD, a player that just blows the Planet away.
>
> The Planet is a lot like a cute little puppy dog. You see it and
> you want to take it home. Just don't forget to line the floor of the
> listening room with newspaper.
OK, Harry, I'll take your word for it. After all, it is your experience
<grin>. But tell me, in that price range, what do YOU think comes close
to the Rega Planet?
Best,
Doug Weinfield
--
Elec -- Chow Yut Hoong - 56
I am also considering purchase of a Rega planet. Some weeks ago, a
Dejanews search of "Rega Planet" revealed a short review where someone
mentioned a comparison he did using the Planet. He mentioned that on
first listen at the dealer, what he heard was very impressive.
However, when he took the Planet home for extended listening, he found
the richness of the sound was actually some low, upper bass
colouration. I hv heard similar things before when listening to many
not-so-good speakers where the bass colouration was masquerading as
harmonic richness, esp on piano. Anyone had this experience with the
Planet? I hv NOT been able to get a home audition of the Planet and
would appreciate if someone on rahe here can correct/elaborate on the
comments above. In particular, how is the build quality on the
mechanical parts - xport, laser movements etc. These tend to fail much
more often than the electronics. The dejanews article escapes my
memory, but to the best of my knowledge, is also probably the only
negative comment on the Planet, amongst the many (if not all) other
positive ones.
Thanks for any comments,
YH
Steve Zipser
>-> Henry Pasternack wrote:
>-> >
>-> > People thinking of buying a Rega Planet ought to listen very
>-> > carefully to it before buying, and try hard not to get caught up in
>-> > the hype surrounding this player. Underneath the funky and admittedly
>-> > impressive exterior lurks a flimsy transport that looks exactly like
>-> > something I'd expect to see in a $129 Sony portable player.
>-> Actually, it has an excellent transport, and since it is a top loader,
>-> without a flimsy wobbly drawer, it is less susceptable to both damage
>-> and vibrations. The top also functions as an excellent clamp. The
>-> board itself is of typical $1000 product quality. It is obvious that
>-> you have NOT closely examined this product, Mr. Pasternak. Sounds like
>-> you gave it a most cursory look.
>-> > Sonically, the Planet is a distinct compromise. It is warm,
>-> > smooth, and inoffensive. Listen carefully and you will hear the
>-> > familiar digital artifacts, artfully disguised under a layer of
>-> > "vinyl-like" coloration. What you don't get is an LP's startling
>-> > sense of "information retrieval" or the big, open, jaw-dropping sound
>-> > of a top-notch CD player or turntable.
We have what sounds like a vinyl ubber alles attitude here! The Rega
is a sweet and smooth CD Player. It is extremely enjoyable to listen
to. I would like you, therefor to quantify "Digital Artifacts" for us.
Please show us what you are talking about. As for its being not
perfect, of course it isn't. It is a reasonably priced CD Player
where the designers have intelligently chosen compromises which do not
make it unenjoyable to listen to.
>-> > I like vinyl, but I also like digital (in principle). What I don't
>-> > like about digital are the hashy artifacts I hear in most CD players.
You keep talking about this, yet I have not heard you explain what you
mean. I put a planet in my two reference systems after reading your
post, and I have to wonder if there was some burning hemp close by
when you wrote that post :) Both my reference systems easily have the
resolution to enable one to hear any problems in the source. Now the
Rega is NOT the equal of my Audio Logic DAC, but then, I wouldn't
expect it to be. But it is dramatically more pleasing than any other
CD Player that I've owned under $1000.
>-> > If one could get rid of those distortions, in my opinion, CD would
>-> > absolutely destroy vinyl in head-to- head sonic competition. What the
>-> > Planet does is cover up the nasty sonics. In the process, it covers
>-> > up some of the music. It's that simple.
Provide examples of these 'distortions', please.
>-> > Popping the covers on the Planet after listening to it, I studied
>-> > the converter circuitry. Without getting into the technical details,
>-> > the impression I got of the design was very much in line with my
>-> > listening evaluation.
Since you are trying to put down a product, then you darn sure OUGHT
to get into the technical details. Your statement holds no water
without going into some serious detail. The Planet uses excellent
Burr-Brown DACs which were co-designed by Rega & Burr-Brown - not an
off the shelf chip set.
>-> > I wanted to like the Planet. For the first five or ten minutes, I
>-> > was taken in. After that, I kept asking myself, "Where's the beef?"
>-> > Sorry, this CD player is not as good as people keep saying it is. One
>-> > reviewer said it's equivalent to players costing twice as much. For
>-> > twice as much money six months ago, I could have bought a CAL Icon
>-> > HDCD, a player that just blows the Planet away.
I think the reviewer is right and you are perhaps, mistaken? In fact,
I think ALL THREE reviewers that raved about the unit were correct.
Steve Zipser
b.vonh...@stockholm.mail.telia.com
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo) wrote:
> John Allen wrote:
> > I am replacing my aging CD Player. I have been directed toward
> > the Rega Planet but can find little info and so far no ads or reviews.
<snip>
> The REGA is a winner.
<snip>
Hate to be the pessimist here but here follows some opinions from the
August edition of the UK HiFi mag "HiFi News and Record Review". In
order not to infringe on the copyright I'll give a synopsis in my own
words:
The sound is very forward, lacking any midrange warmth, the execution
of the reviewed sample was shoddy with plugs mounted so far
off-centre, cable fitting was difficult. Operation without the
optional remote is difficult due to the small fiddly buttons. Amp
matching was difficult, using a NVA pre-amp revealed crudeness and a
lack of refinement. etc. etc.
In short the Rega is a throwback to what the reviewer calls the "flat
earthers" that adhered to a specific type of sound in the 70's and
80's. These flat earthers only bought certain brands that had a
specific way of presenting music - no soundstage depth, no smoothness,
no mid band warmth. (The reaction to the flat earth was the
worshippers of SET). As always audition and decide for yourself!
Best regards/Bjorn
Stewart Pinkerton
It's worth getting hold of a copy of the August edition of the UK
magazine Hi-Fi News, which has a pretty comprehensive 'warts and all'
review of the Rega Planet, covering the 'variable' build quality and
the aggressive and deliberately tailored 'in yer face' sound. The
reviwer ends up quite liking it, although he prefers the Marantz
CD-63se, but we are not talking about an immaculately made or
neutral-sounding player here. Very much in the Rega tradition of
non-standard product with a non-standard sound. Love it or leave it!
It seems to be one of those players which really does benefit from the
softening effect of the Musical Fidelity X-10D, so it's definitely one
for the tweakers.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is art, audio is engineering
A S P Consulting |
(44) 1509 880112 |
Ron S 993
In article <5rpcb3$p...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
b.vonh...@stockholm.mail.telia.com writes:
>The sound is very forward, lacking any midrange warmth, the execution
>of the reviewed sample was shoddy with plugs mounted so far
>off-centre, cable fitting was difficult.
I find it both amazing and amusing that the critics can be of such extreme
diversity in opinion when reviewing a product. Three separate reviews
that I read (two from U.S. publications, and one from the U.K.) absolutely
raved about the Rega Planet. They used superlatives usually reserved for
the top level reference equipment. They found the sound quality
equivalent with even the best multi-kilo$$$ separate transport/DAC
players. They found the fit and finish, as well as the design flawless.
I tried the Planet in my system, and I must agree, that it sounds and
looks, and works just great. I purchased it and have been very satisfied
with the product. My unit did require about 3 hours of break in time
before it settled in, so perhaps those reviewers who found the Planet
lacking in sound quality didn't give it enough time. But I would presume
they should know better.
I've compared the Planet to many players priced at a much higher point,
and it has come out on top every time. Could it be possible that a
relatively small company (Rega) that spends virtually no money on
advertising might not fair well in reviews against competitors who
maintain large advertising accounts with the reviewers? Hmmmm? I suggest
that anyone interested try the Rega Planet in their own system, and see
how it performs. I really don't think you'll be let down.
Ron S.
John Busenitz
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Steve Zipser wrote:
> >-> Henry Pasternack wrote:
>
> >-> > Sonically, the Planet is a distinct compromise. It is warm,
> >-> > smooth, and inoffensive. Listen carefully and you will hear the
> >-> > familiar digital artifacts, artfully disguised under a layer of
> >-> > "vinyl-like" coloration. What you don't get is an LP's startling
> >-> > sense of "information retrieval" or the big, open, jaw-dropping sound
> >-> > of a top-notch CD player or turntable.
>
> We have what sounds like a vinyl ubber alles attitude here! The Rega
I can't speak for Mr. Pasternack, but from what I've seen, he certainly
does not. Merely that he doesn't like this, or most other CD players
doesn't mean he thinks analog is inherently better, or vice versa.
Don't you remember the "Analog sucks and I can prove it" posts in
r.a.tech a year or two ago?
> is a sweet and smooth CD Player. It is extremely enjoyable to listen
Mr. Pasternack doesn't think so, and neither do others, apparently.
They're not wrong, and neither are you.
> to. I would like you, therefor to quantify "Digital Artifacts" for us.
> Please show us what you are talking about. As for its being not
> perfect, of course it isn't. It is a reasonably priced CD Player
> where the designers have intelligently chosen compromises which do not
> make it unenjoyable to listen to.
Some people think that it is unenjoyable to listen to. Are you saying that
their opinions are wrong?
> >-> > I like vinyl, but I also like digital (in principle). What I don't
> >-> > like about digital are the hashy artifacts I hear in most CD players.
>
> You keep talking about this, yet I have not heard you explain what you
> mean. I put a planet in my two reference systems after reading your
> post, and I have to wonder if there was some burning hemp close by
> when you wrote that post :) Both my reference systems easily have the
> resolution to enable one to hear any problems in the source. Now the
> Rega is NOT the equal of my Audio Logic DAC, but then, I wouldn't
> expect it to be. But it is dramatically more pleasing than any other
> CD Player that I've owned under $1000.
So when somebody has a different opinion of the sound of something,
they are smoking drugs?
This is why I chose to reply to this post. Such threads are just plain
silly. Nobody gets anywhere arguing about opinions, because everybody
has a different one. Don't folks see the folly in this?
Mr. Pasternack submits his subjective opinion about the sound of this unit,
with a little bit of technical allusion. Zip, who sells the unit, then
rants and raves about how Pasternack is wrong, and nobody in this newsgroup
is better off for any of it.
Don't any of you see problems with this? Wouldn't a bit more content in this
forum be preferable?
Mr. Pasternacks opinion doesn't prove anything, and neither does yours, so
just relax, Zipser.
> >-> > Popping the covers on the Planet after listening to it, I studied
> >-> > the converter circuitry. Without getting into the technical details,
> >-> > the impression I got of the design was very much in line with my
> >-> > listening evaluation.
>
> Since you are trying to put down a product, then you darn sure OUGHT
> to get into the technical details. Your statement holds no water
> without going into some serious detail. The Planet uses excellent
> Burr-Brown DACs which were co-designed by Rega & Burr-Brown - not an
> off the shelf chip set.
Most CD-player manufacturers don't do a very good job of mixed-signal
design, as has been demonstrated in this forum repeatedly by a number
of people. Furthermore, Rega doen't have much experience with digital,
less than the companies who design nothing but digital, so it is pretty
understandable that they didn't "get it right".
I don't think Mr. Pasternack is trying to "put down" a product. He
merely informed us of his subjective opinion of its sound. If it
makes you feel any better, Zipser, it's a perception fraught with
bias and uncontrolled variables.
> >-> > I wanted to like the Planet. For the first five or ten minutes, I
> >-> > was taken in. After that, I kept asking myself, "Where's the beef?"
> >-> > Sorry, this CD player is not as good as people keep saying it is. One
> >-> > reviewer said it's equivalent to players costing twice as much. For
> >-> > twice as much money six months ago, I could have bought a CAL Icon
> >-> > HDCD, a player that just blows the Planet away.
It's base looses definition, eh? ;-)
> I think the reviewer is right and you are perhaps, mistaken? In fact,
> I think ALL THREE reviewers that raved about the unit were correct.
So Mr. Pasternack doesn't, and neither do a number of others. I have my doubts
as well. So where does that put us? Why is he mistaken? Because his subjective
opinion is different than yours? So if anyone thinks differently than you, they
are mistaken? Come on, this is what makes all this "audiophile stuff" so ludicrous.
You can't argue subjective opinion. This is why I think we should concentrate
more on the objective, what CAN be quantified and proven. Lest the same people
foam at the mouth, no, I am not saying there is no room for discussion of
subjective perceptions. It's just that I think we need to grow up and act
like adults, rather than saying "Green is better than blue" "No, blue is better!"
Can't we all just get along and grow up?
_____________________________________________________________
John Busenitz buse...@ecn.purdue.edu
P.U. ECE http://cernan.ecn.purdue.edu/~busenitz
Disclaimer: My statements do not represent Purdue University.
Magnus Ostvall
In article <5rpb7p$p...@agate.berkeley.edu> Steve Zipser
<z...@mailhost.netrunner.net> writes:
<snip>
-> Since you are trying to put down a product, then you darn sure OUGHT
-> to get into the technical details. Your statement holds no water
-> without going into some serious detail. The Planet uses excellent
-> Burr-Brown DACs which were co-designed by Rega & Burr-Brown - not an
-> off the shelf chip set.
I really do not see whether this is pro or con for the Rega. What this
in essential is meaning is that all existing DACs (in same price
range) was different or not as good as the new one they created.
In one sense this might be the best way to achieve a hype about
vinyl-sound of the DAC, but also says that most DACs used in other
players are much worse...
I have not heard the Rega Planet enough to say it's better or worse
than other brands, it sure looks nice but is the sound really that
better or different that it simply outperforms all other players in
the same price range?
Before the Planet the Marantz CD-63II KI was the one that everyone
talked about and I would think it would be kind of difficult to just
outperform it so easily as it sounds here...
/Magnus, happily playing his XA2ES :-)
--
Magnus....@epk.ericsson.se
~~~~~~~~~ Frameworks - EPK/TF ~~~~~~~~~
Ericsson Software Technology AB, Sweden
Stewart Pinkerton
"Henry Pasternack" <h...@nortel.ca> writes:
> People thinking of buying a Rega Planet ought to listen very
>carefully to it before buying, and try hard not to get caught up in
>the hype surrounding this player. Underneath the funky and admittedly
>impressive exterior lurks a flimsy transport that looks exactly like
>something I'd expect to see in a $129 Sony portable player. The rest
>of the interior construction is equally underwhelming.
Easily explained by the fact that this is what it is - a Sony CDM14
transport and Burr-Browns budget model PCM1710 DAC. Compare and
contrast with the solid Kenwood DP-7090 which uses a heavy-duty
Kenwood transport and *four* of Burr-Browns top PCM1702 DACs per
channel for the same selling price! The tacky front panel push buttons
and cheap nickel-plated sockets do nothing to reassure the purchaser.
You sure do pay a lot to get that cottage-industry badge!
jj, curmudgeon and grumpy burdalane
In article <5rrbl4$k...@canyon.sr.hp.com> John Busenitz <buse...@ecn.purdue.edu> writes:
>On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Steve Zipser wrote:
>> I think the reviewer is right and you are perhaps, mistaken? In fact,
>> I think ALL THREE reviewers that raved about the unit were correct.
>So Mr. Pasternack doesn't, and neither do a number of others. I have my doubts
>as well.
And, then, this is all "PREFERENCE" now, isn't it?
There is no such thing as an "incorrect preference".
Mr. Zipser likes what he likes. There's no "incorrect". Mr. Busenitz
likes what he liktes. There's no "incorrect". Mr. Pinkerton likes
what HE likes. There's still no "incorrect".
What in heavens name is this argument about?
--
Copyright alice!jj 1997, all rights reserved, except transmission by USENET
and like facilities granted. This notice must be included. Any use by a
provider charging in any way for the IP represented in and by this article
and any inclusion in print or other media are specifically prohibited.
Siqi Fan
Ron S 993 (ron...@aol.com) wrote:
: I find it both amazing and amusing that the critics can be of such extreme
: diversity in opinion when reviewing a product. Three separate reviews
: that I read (two from U.S. publications, and one from the U.K.) absolutely
The guy of Sterophile(Tom Telling?) likes Micromega Stage 6 much
better than the Planet.
Siqi
[Sam Tellig, perhaps? -- moderator bt]
REALHIFI
Henry: The "flimsy transport" that you make mention of is in fact the
finest transport mechanism that Sony has to offer. They engineered it
for the likes of Krell and Levinson and only after they realized that
the mega high end companies demand was not sufficient to make it a
viable product did they approach Rega. I can assure you that there is
no sub $1000 cd player that offers a superior and/or more costly
transport mechanism.
Steve Lauerman
Lauerman Audio Imports
Rega USA
Stewart Pinkerton
<snip>
>Since you are trying to put down a product, then you darn sure OUGHT
>to get into the technical details. Your statement holds no water
> without going into some serious detail. The Planet uses excellent
> Burr-Brown DACs which were co-designed by Rega & Burr-Brown - not an
> off the shelf chip set.
This is wrong. The Rega Planet uses the cheap and very much 'off the
shelf' PCM1710 DAC, the exact same one used in the Arcam Alpha 7 and
which was carried over from the old Alpha One. Burr-Brown have much
better DACs available, also off the shelf, such as the PCM1702 which
is used by several upmarket players and DACs. The Planet also uses a
standard low-cost Sony CDM14 transport, despite the fancy lid. You may
or may not like the sound of the Planet, but don't kid yourself that
you're getting any special parts in there. It should also be noted
that the Planet (and indeed the Alpha 7) generates a massive amount of
ultrasonic noise, and should *definitely* be auditioned with the
amplifier it's going to be used with in your own system. It can sound
very harsh with an amp which is sensitive to ultrasonic noise.
Ron S 993
In article <5s08aa$1...@canyon.sr.hp.com>, si...@sr.hp.com (Siqi Fan)
writes:
>The guy of Sterophile(Tom Telling?) likes Micromega Stage 6 much
>better than the Planet.
True, Sam Tellig stated that the Micromega Stage 6 was of a higher
quality (and price), but he also gave the Rega Planet his vote for
Digital Product of the Year. I would hardly call this liking the
Stage 6 "much better than the Planet"!
Ron S.
Henry Pasternack
In spite of Steve Zipser's complaining, he and I seem to agree
closely on the sound of the Rega Planet. He called it "sweet, smooth,
and enjoyable to listen to." I said it is "warm, smooth, and
inoffensive." We both call it a compromise and note that it is not in
the same class as the very best digital equipment. =
Steve says no player under $1000 is as pleasing to listen to = as
the Planet, and I can't argue with his preference. I haven't found a
player in this price range that delivers high resolution and an
unfatiguing sound all at the same time. If the sound of the Planet
turns you on, go for it. But I do disagree strongly with people who
say this player does it all for half the price. That's where the
wishful thinking comes in.
With respect to build quality, I think Stewart Pinkerton has pretty
much summed up the story. If you want to understand what it takes to
get maximum performance out of a digital chipset, go read Pete
Goudreau's articles on the Parts Connection DAC-1. Then you'll
understand why the Planet will never be a "Class A" player.
=
I'll say again, I think the hype over this player is way =
overblown. My attitude is hardly "vinyl uber alles". I would say
that award goes to Rega themselves who describe the Planet as a player
for vinyl lovers who "have to listen" to CD.
I knew my remarks about the Planet would spark controversy.
It's funny, isn't it? Thanks for not letting me down.
-Henry
Thorsten "EZEE" Loesch
Hi all,
> : I find it both amazing and amusing that the critics can be of such
extreme
> : diversity in opinion when reviewing a product. Three separate reviews
> : that I read (two from U.S. publications, and one from the U.K.)
absolutely
>
> The guy of Sterophile(Tom Telling?) likes Micromega Stage 6 much
> better than the Planet.
I think on a very technical Note, the Planet puts out huge Quantities
of ultrasonic noise. Different Equipment reacts differently to
this. Many modern Amps do not like this at all. I think that this may
go a long way towards explaining the differences.
I also think, tha Sam liked the Planet best when used with a Musical
Fidelity X-Dac with X-10 tagged at the end and DIP (Monarcy?) anti
Jiiter Box. Hardly a pure CD-Player this in't it? Indeed, methinks,
that almost ANY CD-Player used in this configuration would sound
remarkably like the Planet Telling used :-).
KK is still fighting the good fight agains the Flat Earth and the
"Flat Response". I found interesting that those who did like the
Planet also like other Stuff (analog) with thypical "british"
Sound. So if you like a Rega Planar 3 Turntable with Rega Cartridge,
chances are you will like the Planet. If not, give some others a
listen.
Kind regards Thorsten.
Ps. I bought a Marantz CD-67SE instead.
======================================
web-pages:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tloesh_2
e-mail:
Torsten...@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herin
are my personal ones and do not in any
way reflect opinions or policies of my
employer.
======================================
Werner Ogiers
b.vonhaartman wrote
"some opinions from the
August edition of the UK HiFi mag "HiFi News and Record Review"....
The sound is very forward, lacking any midrange warmth, the execution
Operation without the optional remote is difficult due to the small
fiddly buttons.
using a NVA pre-amp revealed crudeness and a lack of refinement. etc.
etc."
---
I reviewed the Planet for the Belgian magazine AudioVision in
December. Among the group were other players, notably the Marantz
CD-67SE, Cairn Meije, and a new CEC with a low-jitter clock. The
system used turned around Quad and Sphinx preamps, Quad power amp,
Quad electrostatic speakers. With the Sphinx in place, this system was
very revealing. Listening tests were sighted, but at matched levels,
and lasted 7 days, with numerous in-group cross-references.
My findings of the Rega can be summarised as follows:
-on the laid-back side of neutral
-a bit subdued in dynamics
-natural, without the digital haze *all* other players suffered.
In short, it made the most music of the bunch. And it also sounded much
more musical AND neutral than the Marantz. (Now take note that in that
HFN&RR review KK prefers a 63SE to the Planet. The 67SE and 63SE are
virtually identical...). I am not a flat earther. I am particularly
resistant to all gospels enunciated by Linn/Naim/Rega/... And I'm not
deaf.
But, of course, I am not KK...
Werner Ogiers
Visions in Audio --> http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/4133
Jonathan and Cynthia Darling
I was pleased to read another dissenting voice regarding the Planet
since I posted one in another forum a few months ago.
Not to duplicate that posting, I have a CD for which I was present at
the studio recording. I know the voices well from having designed
reinforcement for them in a theatre. I was present in the recording
studio. I heard the 24-track master tape.
The Planets reproduction of the CD had an unatural warmth and added
lower harmonic content- no question.
Some folks like a smooth "listenable" sound and for them this might be
the player. For those who wish to get as close as they can to the
source sound the Planet is a poor choice. I would not keep it for
anything, despite some fine qualities. Rega was obviously trying to
produce an analog sound at the expense of accuracy. Digital ain't
analog, it has it's own strengths and weaknesses.
Better player for the money?
Rotel RCD-970 $600 a little forward and some treble hardness
Rotel RCD-975 $725 smoother but lacking some high extension
--
Jonathan Darling
jdar...@nwu.edu
p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk
Relay-Version: ANU News - V6.1B10 04/18/95 OpenVMS AXP; site zippy.dct.ac.uk
Path: zippy.dct.ac.uk!nntp
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
Subject: Re: * Opinions Please: Rega Planet CD Player
Message-ID: <33E6FE...@dundee.ac.uk>
From: Peter Clinch <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 11:22:05 +0100
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John Allen wrote:
> I would especially like to hear comments from anyone whom has
> recently auditioned one or owns one. Steve Zip..... in Florida offers
> an exceptional deal on them but I would like some background as there
> is nowhere to audition one where I live.
Haven't heard one, but those I know who have have been impressed. For
text information, try:
http://www.primenet.com/audio/affordable/rega.htm
That's the US importer's page, with a bit of blurb and contact
addresses where you can find out dealerships, additional propoganda
etc.
> Does the Rega Planet require a DAC?
No. It's solid state, all-in-one, top loader. Guaranteed to not look
like anything else you have ;-)
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 3637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Ron S 993
dale w smith
All those trying to make the Rega Plant out to have a special dac or
transport had better read the latest HI-Fi News and Record
Reviews. Both the dac and transport are well known budget items ( the
dac is identical to the Arcam 7 ). The implementation of each is
particular to Rega but nothing above what would be expected at the
price. Also the description of its sound is quite different- very
lively and upfront- differs from the opinions heard in the U.S.
To me it appears to be hyped beyond its capabilities.
Dale W. Smith
Ron S 993
In article <5sftjm$m...@agate.berkeley.edu>, "Henry wrote:
>Secondly, we have been
> working with Burr Brown for three years to design the
> unique Rega D to A conversion sound. This is not an "off
> the shelf" chip, but rather, a chip designed with analog
> in mind."
> A careful reading shows how deceptive the wording is. For
>instance, it refers to the "D to A conversion sound", implying that
>Burr-Brown spent three years developing a custom DAC chip for Rega,
>when in fact no such thing is really said.
I really don't see how you arrived at this conclusion. The quote from
Rega plainly states ".....we have been working with Burr-Brown for
three years to design the unique Rega D to A conversion sound." I
personally contacted by phone the corporate offices of Burr-Brown in
Arizona, and the PR person I spoke with verified that indeed
Burr-Brown had been in collaboration with Rega in the development of
the Planet CD player, for at least one year that he could remember. I
fail to see any deception in the ad copy presented by Rega. Nor have
I found any shortcoming in the Sony transport mechnism used in the
Planet.
More telling however, is your own statement that "experienced
audiophiles know specs don't tell the whole story". How true! But I
feel that Rega has been subjected to some unfair bashing in this
regard- when the specs favor the Planet, they don't tell the whole
story. When the specs are negative (high levels of ultrasonic
noise??), they are accepted and repeated as gospel truth without
question. Truly, Rega is an arrogant little company when it comes to
digital sound, and it seems that this arrogance has really disrupted
the "digital audio world view" of many audiophiles.
Regarding the Audiophilia Review, Henry, I would hardly say that they
"trashed" the Rega. In fact, the addendum by Andrew Chasin notes that
the Rega Planet will be sonically quite satisfying to many
audiophiles, and that it's build quality and ergonomics are leaps and
bounds ahead of the competition. In fact, his most accurate
description was that its sound was "polite", and that the harsh,
glaring, edgy sound found in similarly priced units does not apply to
the Planet. Not exactly a trashing review, now is it?
I really wanted to dislike the Planet when I auditioned it. I had
budgeted much more money for a CD player, and I was ready to dismiss
the Planet as mid-fi at best. But it just plain sounds better in my
system than anything else in the <$1000 range. I'm sure the higher
priced models would certainly outclass the Rega. But until I can
afford a Levinson or Sonic Frontiers 3 series separates, they Rega
will do just fine for now. Enough of this! I'm going to go listen to
some digital audio Rega style!
Regards,
Ron S.
Ron S 993
>I was pleased to read another dissenting voice regarding the Planet
>since I posted one in another forum a few months ago.
I am curious as to why you find this "pleasing"? You admit that "some
folks like a smooth listenable sound and for them this might be the
player." (referring to the Rega). You are absolutely right: digital
ain't analog! Rega openly states that this player makes no attempt to
reproduce digital audio as most CD players presently do. As you have
stated, this is far from what the sound is like in the studio (from
your memory). But for some folks, the "forward, treble harsh" (your
words) nature of many players in this price range is unacceptable.
I've listened the the Rotel players you mention, and they are most
definitely NOT better players for the money- *in my opinion*. That's
what this is really all about: having a choice. It's really very
curious at how Rega has upset so many individuals; presumably by their
unorthodox concept of what a CD player should sound like. Rega is a
very arrogant little company in this respect, presuming to "know" just
how music is supposed to sound- but the "Rega bashers" are starting to
sound just as arrogant! As always, a simple in home audition should
decide the fate of any potential new piece of equipment. Since Rega
has far more orders for the Planet than they have players to sell, it
appears quite a few folks really do like that "analog" sound, even if
it isn't quite like the studio master tape.
Regards,
Ron S.
Werner Ogiers
OK, let's summarize...
1) The Planet uses an ordinary PCM-1710 Delta-Sigma DAC with builtin
digital filter, output opamps, and second order reconstruction filter.
Rega's claims of the DAC being a result of 3 years of cooperation with
BB always were dubious, as such a project would cost, oh, in excess of
$400k or so. After this, a Rega-Sony designed output stage follows,
but that's according to the blurb. I've also seen mentions of Sanyo
opamps, but writers might be mistaken between 'Sony' and
'Sanyo'. Anyway, I know that the analogue stage is AC-coupled, but
probably somewhere in-circuit rather than at the actual output: there
are no big capacitors near the Planet's output pins, if I remember
correctly. Ouput impedance is 1kOhms. I find this much too
high. Also, there is no technical reason for this. It precludes the
Planet from use with inputs less than 20k or so. Maybe I'll discuss
this with Rega soon.
2) The power supply is built around a cute little toroid. Nice. The
transport is a cheap Sony, modified to be easlily replaced in case of
failure. Replacing it can be done in less than 30 seconds. I've seen
it.
3) Build quality and quality control are, hmm, adequate. I have had
access to three players with serial numbers around 2000 or less. I
found several flaws (none too serious, but still unacceptable on a
$1000 CD), and reported these to Rega. RG assured that quite a few
things would be reworked. But then...
4) Quite a few magazines like it. Hifi News' Ken Kessler dislikes
it. But -KK is not quite the most reliable reviewer, IMHO -the Planet
seems to form bad matches with at least some amplifiers, probably due
to spurious RF output. The Planet's sound is often described as
either soft and laid-back, perhaps even lacking in detail, or as harsh
and up-front. Given the contrast between these findings, there has to
be something wrong.
When I tested it against 3 other players, including a Marantz CD-67SE
(BTW, I did the world's first review of this player, and the world's
second or third one of the Planet ;-), I found the Planet indeed
laid-back and slightly subdued. However, I could forgive this as it
was also less glaring and hard than all of the others. The preamp in
use was a Sphinx Project 2 MkII, a very good solid state design
costing $2300 or so.
Werner Ogiers
Visions in Audio --> www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/4133
Henry Pasternack
Ron S. writes:
> Please explain the following: Rega has been accused of using an
> "inferior", off-the-shelf DAC from Burr-Brown, the PCM1710. The
> following specs are direct from Burr-Browns' data sheet on the 1710
> DAC. You now state that oversampling is not utilized in the Planet.
> If indeed the 1710 is the DAC in use, it would appear that someone is
> incorrect. If I am mistaken about this, please enlighten me!
The Rega promotional literature is very misleading. It gives the
impression the Planet is filled with custom parts designed in
cooperation with Rega engineers to produce a uniquely "analog-like"
sound:
"...Our first objective was to find the correct partners to
help us produce the complex parts that no small specialist
company can manufacture themselves. We have two major
partners. First, Sony who supplies Rega with a unique
analog post conversion filter. Secondly, we have been
working with Burr Brown for three years to design the
unique Rega D to A conversion sound. This is not an "off
the shelf" chip, but rather, a chip designed with analog
in mind."
A careful reading shows how deceptive the wording is. For
instance, it refers to the "D to A conversion sound", implying that
Burr-Brown spent three years developing a custom DAC chip for Rega,
when in fact no such thing is really said.
Here's my translation of the paragraph:
"...Out first objective was to find suppliers willing to
guarantee us a supply of low-cost parts in small quantities
over the production lifetime of the Planet. We made an
agreement with Sony, which sources a post-conversion
filter. This is not a part you can buy from a catalog,
but a proprietary chip from Sony's production line. We
also have an agreement with Burr-Brown, which supplies
us with their standard PCM1710 DAC. We obtained early
production samples of this chip three years ago from
Burr-Brown so that we could develop supporting circuits
that give us the analog-like sound we desire."
If I were in charge of Rega marketing, I might have added:
"The transport used in the Planet is a low-cost unit, the
same one used in the Sony XA3ES. Although it is not
ruggedly built, it provides very high performance over
its useful lifetime. In fact, all of the parts used in
the Planet were selected to provide a good compromise
between cost, reliability, and performance. That is why
we use, as much as possible, standard production items
from our suppliers rather than costly custom pieces.
Then, we wrap the rather ordinary guts in a rugged,
attractive case (which doesn't cost us that much because
we use the same case in all our equipment), giving the
subjective impression of uncommonly rugged build quality."
But, of course, I probably wouldn't last long as an ad copy writer by
being so frank.
With respect to the specs for the PCM1710, I was still under the
impression when I got into this thread that the Planet used a custom
DAC chip. I don't know where I got the idea it wasn't oversampled;
probably from reading some hi-fi rag article where the author
mistakenly assumed that the "post-conversion filter" is used in place
of an oversampling filter. As well, I didn't see a digital filter
chip in the Planet, because this function is contained on the Dac.
Now, yes, the PCM1710 is listed as a high-performance part. But
experienced audiophiles know specs don't tell the whole story. One
has to assume that when an oversampling filter and two DACs are
combined into one small, low-cost chip that the results are a
compromise compared to the separate and costly filter chips and
single-channel DACs.
It's interesting to look at the www.audiophilia.com review of the
Planet. It reinforces the notion that the player is unusually
well-built (don't they ever look inside?), but trashes the sound,
coming to a conclusion that echoes my own feelings about the Planet.
Anyway, I wouldn't discourage anyone from buying the Planet. It's
seriously flawed to my ears, but so are all the other units I listened
to in this price range. It certainly isn't built as well as it looks,
but it shouldn't be any less reliable than a modest Sony player. My
wife has an "all-in-one" Sony system that she bought back in 1986, and
the CD player still works fine, for what it's worth.
-Henry
realhifi
In response to Dale Smiths post which states that the "Both the dac
and transport are well known budget items (the dac is identical to the
Arcam 7)." Allow me to clarify a few points. The dac is of
proprietary design through a partnership between Rega and Burr Brown
and was developed over a three year period. It is NOT identical to
the Arcam 7 or any other dac. The transport utilizes a KSS-240A
optical pick-up. Sony has made changes to the transport mechanism
which also makes it unique to Rega.
Steve Lauerman
Lauerman Audio Imports
Rega Research USA
Stewart Pinkerton
ron...@aol.com (Ron S 993) writes:
>In article <5s8216$m...@canyon.sr.hp.com>, "Henry wrote:
>
>>It's hard to imagine why
>>Rega didn't use an oversampling filter in the Planet
>
>Please explain the following: Rega has been accused of using an
>"inferior", off-the-shelf DAC from Burr-Brown, the PCM1710. The
>following specs are direct from Burr-Browns' data sheet on the 1710
>DAC. You now state that oversampling is not utilized in the Planet.
>If indeed the 1710 is the DAC in use, it would appear that someone is
>incorrect. If I am mistaken about this, please enlighten me!
<PCM1710 spec. snipped>
>I'm not trying to be confrontational about this, but I am getting a
>bit confused with some of the misquotes and misinformation being
>disseminated on this thread. Thanks!
There has to be some kind of typo or minor brainfade here. You can't
avoid using an oversampling filter with the PCM 1710, it's built right
into the DAC chip! The published spectra for the output of the Planet
show a very characteristic (and bad!) ultrasonic signature which is
definitely that of the hybrid PCM 1710, showing levels approaching
-50dB in the 25-100kHz band. This is a hundred times higher than is
found in the better modern players, whether 'bitstream' or especially
multibit, and can cause audible IM distortion with susceptible
amplifiers. The Arcam Alpha 7 has the same transport/DAC components
(they admit they use a standard PCM1710!), and it exhibits almost
identical spectral characteristics.
Please note that no criticism of the excellent Sony CDM14 transport is
intended here, it's the best low-cost mechanism on the market and a
fine low-jitter alternative to the ubiquitous Philips CDM12.
Ron S 993
dale w smith
The importer sent me an e-mail refuting my statements BUT unless Hi-fi
News and Record Reviews is wrong ( I could quote the results but
unless you buy a copy yourself you won't get the whole story ) and
Rega and Burr-Brown issue a statement clearly the air ( I would assume
it would be in their best interest if I and others are wrong ) it is
difficult to believe the importers version. I am not trying to be
annoying but the high-end is built on trust and I believe issues like
these are extremely important.
Dale W. Smith
Ron S 993
In article <5si6fh$g...@agate.berkeley.edu>, dale wrote:
>The importer sent me an e-mail refuting my statements BUT unless Hi-fi
>News and Record Reviews is wrong ( I could quote the results but
>unless you buy a copy yourself you won't get the whole story ) and
>Rega and Burr-Brown issue a statement clearly the air ( I would assume
>it would be in their best interest if I and others are wrong ) it is
>difficult to believe the importers version.
Then are we to assume that Sterophile, Listener, What Hi-Fi?, etc are
also "wrong" in their very positive assessments of the Rega Planet?
The only air that needs clearing is the smoke being blown about by the
"Planet Bashers" on this group! These folks have claimed the Rega
uses no oversampling, ooops, sorry, I meant I just didn't see the chip
on the circuit board! Then it's a "cheap" Burr-Brown chip being used.
Well, maybe it's not cheap, but it's not their best and latest!
Etc. and so on, ad nauseum..........
Thoughtless drivel from a group of self-proclaimed experts on compact
disc player design who don't even take the time to get the facts
straight. I don't think that either Rega or Burr-Brown would waste
their time addressing these "issues". I must commend you for not
using that all time favorite Rega bashing tactic: Quoting one negative
comment from an otherwise neutral or positive review to give the
impression that the unit was uniformly trashed by the reviewer.
The bottom line remains: if this is the price point you are shopping
at, audition the Rega and come to your own conclusions. Rega is
selling every Planet they can make. Since the company doesn't even
advertise the unit, the Planet must have something going for it other
than good looks (IMO)!
Ron S.
Henry Pasternack
Ron S. Writes:
>I really don't see how you arrived at this conclusion. The quote
>from Rega plainly states ".....we have been working with Burr-Brown
>for three years to design the unique Rega D to A conversion sound."
I really don't feel like arguing in circles about this for the next
six months. There is nothing clear about Rega's statement. It could
mean anything from "We sent our engineers to work on site at
Burr-Brown to design a brand-new DAC architecture" to "Burr-Brown
provided us with preliminary specs and samples for a new DAC they were
developing so we could have a circuit ready for the production release
of the chip."
Burr-Brown doesn't manufacture "conversion sound." They make
chips. It's anybody's guess what the Rega marketing blurb really
means. Other people have already pointed out that developing a custom
chip from scratch for a budget CD player project just doesn't make
economic sense.
For someone trying to figure out *precisely* what the story is
here, the Rega literature is about as clear as mud.
>I personally contacted by phone the corporate offices of Burr-Brown
>in Arizona, and the PR person I spoke with verified that indeed
>Burr-Brown had been in collaboration with Rega in the development
>of the Planet CD player, for at least one year that he could remember.
Rega, naturally, would contact its suppliers well in advance of the
relase of a new product to set up agreements guaranteeing the
availability of parts. In this sense, the two companies had to have
been "collaborating" in the development of the *player* (but not
necessarily the *chip*) for quite some time. But what is the extent
of this collaboration?
>I fail to see any deception in the ad copy presented by Rega.
The ad copy uses the suspicious phrase "D to A conversion sound"
instead of the explicit term "D to A converter" to give readers the
impression Rega and Burr-Brown worked together for three years to
develop a custom DAC chip for the Planet. I am unconvinced this is
actually what happened.
>Nor have I found any shortcoming in the Sony transport mechnism
>used in the Planet.
There seems to be some confusion between reliability and robustness
versus performance. Assuredly, the transport in the Rega is a very
high-performance unit, meaning it is very good at getting the data off
the disk. It may do so flawlessly for years and years in any specific
home installation. On the other hand, by the looks of it, I expect
that its lifetime on the *average* will be less than that of more
robust transports. I also expect that the transport may fail more
quickly when subject to extremes of temperature, shock, vibration, and
so on.
None of this is really important since cheap consumer audio gear,
by definition, is not expected to provide military-spec reliability.
The problem seems to be that a lot of people are looking at the
Planet's case and assuming just from the look and feel of it that the
entire thing is built like a tank. This is definitely not the case.
Have you ever actually inspected the guts of your player?
>More telling however, is your own statement that "experienced
>audiophiles know specs don't tell the whole story". How true!
>But I feel that Rega has been subjected to some unfair bashing
>in this regard- when the specs favor the Planet, they don't tell
>the whole story. When the specs are negative (high levels of
>ultrasonic noise??), they are accepted and repeated as gospel
>truth without question.
"Experienced engineers" know that specifications and technical
measurements have to be interpreted properly if they are to mean
anything. Most DAC chips have great basic specs. It is generally
accepted that there are many other factors than THD and SNR of its DAC
chip(s) that influence the sound quality of a CD player. One of these
is the level of ultrasonic noise generated by the player. This is
more a property of the player's overall design than that of its
individual components.
Anyway, no one claims the Planet is a bad player specifically and
only because it radiates "x" amount of ultrasonic hash. Rather, this
is offered as a possible explanation for the contradictory reviews
(laid-back versus harsh) given to the machine.
> Truly, Rega is an arrogant little company when it comes to
>digital sound, and it seems that this arrogance has really
>disrupted the "digital audio world view" of many audiophiles.
I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying the superlative (in
some opinions) sound of the low-cost Planet threatens the
techno-sensibilities of high-end digiphiles? Let me remind you that
after auditioning the Planet (among others), I broke down in disgust
and bought a used turntable, I am now happy as a clam. The Planet
certainly hasn't disrupted my world view. It performs pretty much as
I expect it to, given its construction, which has been my point all
along.
>Regarding the Audiophilia Review, Henry, I would hardly say that
>they "trashed" the Rega.
From the review:
"It is then with some regret, that I have to report the Rega
design team has failed in its mission."
"I found the Planet unexciting and somewhat lifeless."
"The wonderful elements of digital - bass definition, pinpoint
imaging, and effortless dynamics - were not showcased after
extended listening sessions with the Planet. And in comparison
to their much vaunted Rega Planar 3 turntable, the digital
compadre's sound was a mere shadow."
"While attempting to emulate analog sound and do away with the
digital nasties, Roy and company have missed the mark."
In short, reviewer Anthony Kershaw's description echoes almost
exactly my own comments about the sound of the Planet. Inoffensive,
but not much more.
>In fact, the addendum by Andrew Chasin notes that the Rega Planet
>will be sonically quite satisfying to many audiophiles, and that it's
>build quality and ergonomics are leaps and bounds ahead of the
>competition.
Obviously, Chasin didn't open up his Planet, either, else he would
realize that the "battleship-like build quality" does not penetrate to
the interior.
By the way, you don't need an apostrophe in "its".
>In fact, his most accurate description was that its sound was "polite",
>and that the harsh, glaring, edgy sound found in similarly priced
>units does not apply to the Planet.
Damnation by faint praise. Most similarly priced players sound
awful, too. I want something better.
>Not exactly a trashing review, now is it?
I'd be pretty devastated if my creation received the review given
in quotes above.
>I really wanted to dislike the Planet when I auditioned it. I had
>budgeted much more money for a CD player, and I was ready to dismiss
>the Planet as mid-fi at best. But it just plain sounds better in my
>system than anything else in the <$1000 range.
I really wanted to like the Planet when I auditioned it. I had
budgeted much more money for a CD plater, but based on the raving
comments I had read and the great looks, I was expecting it to sound
better in my system than anything else in the <$1000 range.
I was disappointed.
>I'm sure the higher priced models would certainly outclass the Rega.
>But until I can afford a Levinson or Sonic Frontiers 3 series separates,
>the Rega will do just fine for now.
You should have listened to the CAL Icon HDCD.
>Enough of this! I'm going to go listen to some digital audio Rega
>style!
Maybe you should buy a Planar 3. I think you'd like that even
better.
-Henry
uh OH!
>There has to be some kind of typo or minor brainfade here. You can't
>avoid using an oversampling filter with the PCM 1710, it's built right
>into the DAC chip! The published spectra for the output of the Planet
>show a very characteristic (and bad!) ultrasonic signature which is
>definitely that of the hybrid PCM 1710, showing levels approaching
>-50dB in the 25-100kHz band. This is a hundred times higher than is
>found in the better modern players, whether 'bitstream' or especially
>multibit, and can cause audible IM distortion with susceptible
>amplifiers.
I know this is basic, but what exactly causes IM distortion. I know,
intermodulation of frequencies. But how?
colin
John Allen
Ref: Opinions Please (To Rega or not to Rega...)
May I extended my sincere appreciation to all who took part
and are still offering opinions on the Rega Planet CD Player. I
couldn't have hoped for more information and a better discussion !!!
Regardless of where you line up on the Rega unit, your
writings were civil, informative and brought up many points of
interest and controversy that a potential buyer can and should dig
into.
Were I only so lucky to have such information available to me
for all major purchases .
Ladies and gentlemen, my hat is off to all of you.
Thank you,
John Allen
Mesa, Arizona, USA
gr...@phnx.uswest.net
Ron S 993
>Obviously, Chasin didn't open up his Planet, either, else he would
>realize that the "battleship-like build quality" does not penetrate to
>the interior.
>By the way, you don't need an apostrophe in "its".
My point exactly! Since Kershaw's review echoes your sentiments, he
is obviously "correct" in your opinion. When Chasin's addendum is in
disagreement, you accuse him of being less thorough than he should
have been. But what of the other much more positive reviews- Sam
Tellig in Stereophile for example. The overall impression was VERY,
VERY positive, with the final sentence- "The Rega Planet gets my vote
for Digital Product of 1997!"(emphasis by Mr. Tellig) Was he simply
not as thorough as you were?
We could go on about this, and obviously you wanted a lot more for
$795. I think the Planet is right where it should be as far as price,
build quality , and sound are concerned. It works for me, and I guess
not for you. I just want people who may be interested to hear of my
positive experiences with this player. I may someday try the Planar 3
too! BTW, thanks for correcting my typo (it's?). I do enjoy reading
most of your contributions, but I just can't agree with you here. So
be it.
Regards,
Ron S.
Andre T. Yew
co...@iofr.com (uh OH! ) writes:
>I know this is basic, but what exactly causes IM distortion. I know,
>intermodulation of frequencies. But how?
Stewart will probably have a good answer for you, but if you're
comfortable with a little math, here's my very long-winded version ...
A device has a transfer function f(x). This function returns the
output when you plug in an input, x. For example, a linear,
unity-gain lineamp would have f(x) = x --- whatever you plug into x,
you get back. A linear lineamp with a 6dB gain would be f(x) = 2x ---
it doubles whatever is plugged into it, and thus has a 6dB voltage
gain.
In the real world, transfer functions are hardly ever this simple, and
never ever so linear. If you look at some of the curves of
transistors in data books, you'll find that they're fairly linear near
the origin, that is, they look like straight lines near the origin,
but start to curve up and/or out away from the origin. This curvature
means that there are some higher order terms in f(x). Perhaps it will
look like f(x) = x + a*x^3, where a is a constant that depends on the
device and its implementation. Because you have higher order terms,
f(x) is no longer linear.
Linearity is mathematically defined as, and is applicable in the real
world as:
f(x+y) = f(x) + f(y)
That is, if you add two signals and feed it into a linear device,
you'd get the same result as if you had added the two signals after
being processed by the device. In audiophile terms, the device might
be said to be transparent.
Also,
f(b*x) = b*f(x)
That is, when you multiply the signal (eg. apply some gain or
attenuation), and process it with the device, you get the same result
as if you had multiplied the processed results of the device.
If you have a transfer function like:
f(x) = x + x^3
the transfer function is not linear. For example
f(3) = 30
f(1) + f(2) = 12
so f(1) + f(2) does not equal f(1+2), and f(x) is not linear.
Now, plug sin(x) into the f(x) above as your signal, that is, put a
sine wave into your device. After some mathematical wrangling, you
will find that, you get something with sin(x) term, the original
signal, and a sin(3*x) term, the third harmonic of the original
signal. That is, a device with the non-linear transfer function
described above produces odd, and, more specifically, third order
distortion. In general, it turns out that the order of the transfer
function determines the highest order of distortion produced by that
device, BUT only under sinusoidal testing conditions. So if you fed a
sine wave into something with a 5th order polynomial (something with
an x^5 term), you'd get 5th order distortion. An interesting factoid
here: the transfer function described above is termed odd-order,
because all of its powers are odd (1 for x, 3 for x^3, and so on), and
thus is symmetrical about the origin. That is,
f(-x) = -f(x), so
For example, f(-2) = -10, while
f(2) = 10 = -f(-2).
If you use two complementary gain devices, like a push-pull transistor
pair, you also get a symmetrical transfer function, ideally, and this
is one reason why people say push-pull amps tend to produce
odd-harmonics, everything else being equal. This is also the idea
behind the claimed distortion cancellation of isobaric woofer
configurations. By arranging the woofers so that their transfer
function is symmetrical (done by facing the woofers towards each other
or both away), you get only odd-order harmonics, with no even order
harmonics. Underlying all of this is the assumption that the
complementary devices are exactly matched, which they often aren't,
especially speaker drivers.
Finally, intermodulation distortion... Things get more interesting
when you feed in two sine waves into the transfer function above. Say
you feed in sin(2x) + sin(3x), two sine signals of different
frequencies. After a bunch of grungey trig manipulation, you end up
with a result that says you get the original signal (the two sine
waves), and two new frequencies: sin(x), and sin(5x). That is, you
get new signals at the difference and sum of the two original
frequencies, otherwise known as intermodulation distortion. And thus
is the answer to your question: intermodulation distortion is caused
by non-linear transfer functions.
An example of IM distortion can be found in amplifying stages. In
amplifying stages, often gain falls off as you go higher in frequency,
and therefore negative feedback (which depends on the gain of the
amplifying device) falls off. As NF falls off, linearity decreases,
and distortion increases. This is one reason why you see IM tests
done near 20 kHz. The idea is that this is probably where the amp is
most non-linear, because it's the highest used frequency, and
therefore IM distortion may be highest. As a side factoid, you may
notice that for many amps, THD+N tends to rise as the frequency rises,
and this can be caused by the amp's lowering feedback at high
frequencies, and therefore increasing distortion.
As a follow-on to this, you can now see how high-frequency noise and
signals, like radio frequency interference (RFI) could adversely
affect amps. Many amplifying stages have virtually no gain at RF
frequencies, and thus no feedback to correct their non-linearity at
those frequencies. We saw above how intermodulation produces sum and
difference signals. If we have some RFI that has components that are
less than 20 kHz apart, they can modulate down to below 20 kHz and may
be audible. While you might think that such signals are rare,
consider the case of a digital-to-analog convertor producing baseband
images to infinity due to point sampling. The baseband images, for a
44.1 kHz sampled system, are by design less than 22.05 kHz, and thus
can intermodulate easily down into the audible range.
More food for thought: we saw above that sinusoidal excitation does
not fully characterize a non-linear device. What does this tell us
about testing with sine waves only? For a sufficiently non-linear
device, sine waves can tell very little about the transfer function of
a system. Some devices can have very complex transfer functions that
cannot be easily modeled using the power-series approximations we've
been using above (some people might say the Taylor series for those
functions converge very slowly), and we can't even predict the result
of NOT testing with multiple sine waves on those devices. We cannot,
in general, test for non-linearity with sine waves only. When you
excite a device with a sine wave, you may not fully excite all of its
non-linearities, and thus cannot predict what happens when you feed a
system with a lot of sine waves, like music. One more factoid:
Fourier analysis, the thing some people here like to use to say
multitone testing is unncessary because you can use Fourier analysis
to derive the multitone result from a single tone test signal, assumes
a linear system. That is, if your system is not linear, you cannot
add up the sine waves (remember the adding rule for linearity from
above) to form a more complex input signal, and thus derive the
complex result from a simple sine test. You must test for linearity
properly before assuming your device is linear. Testing with only
sine waves, or even simple IM tests, already assumes the device is
linear, and is not necessarily conclusive or meaningful.
--Andre
--
PGP public key available
Stewart Pinkerton
co...@iofr.com (uh OH! ) writes:
>On Fri, 08 Aug 1997 08:50:44 GMT, pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk
>(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
>>There has to be some kind of typo or minor brainfade here. You can't
>>avoid using an oversampling filter with the PCM 1710, it's built right
>>into the DAC chip! The published spectra for the output of the Planet
>>show a very characteristic (and bad!) ultrasonic signature which is
>>definitely that of the hybrid PCM 1710, showing levels approaching
>>-50dB in the 25-100kHz band. This is a hundred times higher than is
>>found in the better modern players, whether 'bitstream' or especially
>>multibit, and can cause audible IM distortion with susceptible
>>amplifiers.
>I know this is basic, but what exactly causes IM distortion. I know,
>intermodulation of frequencies. But how?
If you feed a single frequency into a nonlinear circuit, you will
generate harmonic distortion at multiples of the input frequency. If
you feed two discrete single-frequency signals, say 9kHz and 10kHz,
into the same circuit, the nonlinearity will act upon the
superposition of the signals to generate 'beat' frequencies which are
the sum and difference of the original tones, 1kHz and 19kHz in this
case.
The relevance to the Rega Planet is that, if you have a spurious
signal being input to an amplifier at 25-40kHz, and if that amplifier
is significantly nonlinear at these frequencies (as many are) then a
considerable amount of intermodulation with music signals in the audio
band from 5kHz to 20kHz may take place, generating audible tones in
the 5-20kHz band (the difference frequencies), which have no harmonic
relation to the original signal. This is generally much more
unpleasant than simple harmonic distortion, and may account for the
very varied reviews received by the Rega Planet.
Tim Britt
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
(edited)
> If you feed a single frequency into a nonlinear circuit, you will
> generate harmonic distortion at multiples of the input frequency. If
> you feed two discrete single-frequency signals, say 9kHz and 10kHz,
> into the same circuit, the nonlinearity will act upon the
> superposition of the signals to generate 'beat' frequencies which are
> the sum and difference of the original tones, 1kHz and 19kHz in this
> case.
> The relevance to the Rega Planet is that, if you have a spurious
> signal being input to an amplifier at 25-40kHz, and if that amplifier
> is significantly nonlinear at these frequencies (as many are) then a
> considerable amount of intermodulation with music signals in the audio
> band from 5kHz to 20kHz may take place, generating audible tones in
> the 5-20kHz band (the difference frequencies), which have no harmonic
> relation to the original signal. This is generally much more
> unpleasant than simple harmonic distortion, and may account for the
> very varied reviews received by the Rega Planet.
Would not this same effect apply to all other sources ahead of the
amplifier?
I am not an engineer, but Stewart's explanation above has helped me to
understand the effect ultrasonic signals can have upon some
amplifiers. This, to me, would seem to explain some of the
differences many equipment reviewers say they hear when reviewing
different CD players, transport/DAC combinations, and other digital
sources.
And taking this to the next logical step, should not a responsibile
reviewer provide a measurement of this ultrasonic signal and determine
it's effect upon the amplifier he or she is using for their review?
Henry Pasternack
Ron S. writes:
>>Obviously, Chasin didn't open up his Planet, either, else he would
>>realize that the "battleship-like build quality" does not penetrate to
>>the interior.
>
>My point exactly! Since Kershaw's review echoes your sentiments, he
>is obviously "correct" in your opinion. When Chasin's addendum is in
>disagreement, you accuse him of being less thorough than he should
>have been. But what of the other much more positive reviews- Sam
>Tellig in Stereophile for example. The overall impression was VERY,
>VERY positive, with the final sentence- "The Rega Planet gets my vote
>for Digital Product of 1997!"(emphasis by Mr. Tellig) Was he simply
>not as thorough as you were?
I think you are twisting logic here. Chasin's review of the
Planet is slightly less downbeat, but is essentially in agreement
with Kershaw's. He concludes:
"I could go on analyzing the pros and cons of the Planet, but
Anthony Kershaw's comprehensive review has rendered further
analysis unnecessary. Suffice it to say that I found the Planet
to be a bit of a mixed bag sonically, but one which will likely
appeal to many audiophiles. While I do admire Rega's attempts
to banish the stereotypical digital nasties from the Planet,
and, given what I heard, they were very successful at doing so,
I feel that these efforts came at the expense of some immediacy
and liveliness in the Planet's presentation... Sonically, there
are several competing machines that will certainly give it a run
for its money."
I can't disagree with this assessment, and, once again, it echoes
my own feelings almost exactly. I do disagree strongly with one
statement:
"As far as build quality and ergonomics are concerned, the Planet
is leaps and bounds ahead of its competition."
I'll say again, the Planet's unique mechanical design is visually
appealing. The outer case is quite rugged. But internally, it is
quite cheaply made. The connectors, switches and captive power cord
are positively mid-fi. The transport is definitely not "built like a
battleship." Ergonomically, the funky lid may be a "joy to use". My
Linn LP12 is a "joy to use". Can you honestly say the Planet or the
Linn is ergnomically "leaps and bounds" ahead of a standard CD player
with big buttons, a motorized loading tray and a remote control incuded
in the price? To tell you the truth, as much as I admire that CD lid,
I thought the whole thing was a paint in the butt to use.
>We could go on about this, and obviously you wanted a lot more for
>$795. I think the Planet is right where it should be as far as price,
>build quality , and sound are concerned. It works for me, and I guess
>not for you. I just want people who may be interested to hear of my
>positive experiences with this player.
[Moderator's Note - I get so gd tired of sending posts back to
exorcise one line of ill-considered abuse, that I'm not doing it
here. I am simply blanking out the name. Henry, if you don't like it,
consider more carefully before doing it again in future. -- bt]
No, based on what I had read, I expected a $2000 CD experience.
What I got was (roughly) $795 worth. Not a bad value, but not the
revolution in price/performance people like [name deleted to reduce
flaming -- moderator bt] make it out to be. What I want to do is
encourage people to keep a level head when considering the Planet
because I know how often I have made the wrong buying decision simply
because I liked the *idea* of a product and I didn't think logically
about what I was buying.
After all of this, I still think if you're limited to $800, it's
well worth evaluating the Rega Planet.
-Henry
Ron S 993
In article <5t7h3j$b...@canyon.sr.hp.com>, "Henry wrote:
>What I want to do is
>encourage people to keep a level head when considering the Planet
>because I know how often I have made the wrong buying decision simply
>because I liked the *idea* of a product and I didn't think logically
>about what I was buying.
Henry,
We probably could remove the name "Planet" from your previous quote and
fill in the blank with virtually any piece of audio equipment. Several
days of in home auditioning should help reduce the novelty factor in any
potential puchase and allow logic to re-enter to purchase decision
(although it's not as much fun as buying on impulse!). BTW, the remote was
included in the $795 price of my Rega Planet. That doesn't make it any
more comparable to $2000+ CD players, but I don't think anyone ever
*really* claimed it was. (although reviewers often use superlatives which
encourage this type of comparison). I have opened and worked on my share
of <$1000 players, and I feel confident the Rega Planet is priced right
where it should be.
>Can you honestly say the Planet or the
>Linn is ergnomically "leaps and bounds" ahead of a standard CD player
>with big buttons, a motorized loading tray and a remote control incuded
>in the price?
Leaps and bounds? No, I honestly can't say that about anything I've seen
in high-end audio recently, but I'll never be a big-time audio equipment
reviewer either! Motorized trays were a cute novelty back in 1983. They
simply aren't necessary. Top loading transports seem be the current cute
novelty (although they've been around quite a while too). They both
generally work fine and are merely a matter of preference. The buttons on
the Planet are quite acceptable in size, ergonomics, and "feel". And as I
mentioned, the remote was sealed in the box, complete with fresh batteries
just like any of the competition would be.
When it comes to price/performance ratios, my Rega Planet is actually one
of the more sensible and satisfying audio purchases I've made. It makes me
happy when I open that clever little top loading transport, drop in one of
my favorite discs, and sit back and enjoy the music. It's been over two
months now, and I'm still happy with it! (my dealer let me use a $2000
external DAC last week hoping to sell me on it - it did have a larger
soundstage, but the Rega still sounded more natural to me all by itself!)
If the Planet does happen to self destruct or do anything else to change my
opinion of it, I will be sure to loudly proclaim its faults. Until then,
Henry, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Rega Planet.
Regards,
Ron S.
Kurt Lassen
> John Allen wrote:
>=20
> > I would especially like to hear comments from anyone whom has
s
> > an exceptional deal on them but I would like some background as there
> > is nowhere to audition one where I live.
Hi there. I have made a test of the Planet against the new Kenwood DP 709=
0.=20
I had the machines for about two months.
Both players were very, very good. My favourite was without doubt the=20
Rega. It=B4s stunning musicality and soft treble made it welcome in most=20
peoples ears and equipment. The bas is fast and correct, though not=20
super-deep. The Kenwood was playing lower frequenzies, but also a little=20
more uncorrect bass.
The soundstage was very wide and fitted most music. I play a lot jazz,=20
classic and rock/pop also. With every music-style the player showed me th=
e=20
reason why I listen to music: because it=B4s fun . And it is fun listenin=
g to=20
(and forgettin=B4) about the Rega. Because all it matters is: the music.
But be sure to check it out before bying. I=B4m sure I did.
QRT, Denmark
q...@image.dk
q...@dr.dk
Vytenis Babrauskas
Anyone wanting to buy the Rega should take a look at the review which
appeared a few months ago (June?) in HiFi News and Record Review. The
jist: A very highly colored device...some folks might like its
colorations.
Cheers,