SONUS FABER EXTREMA SPEAKERS
BATMAN
Hi all,
I've heard the Extrema recently and am very impressed by its
performance and killer looks. However, I was told that it has to be
driven by at least 300 watts power amp in the likes of Krells to bring
out the magic.
Anyone using these beauties, please advise your ancillary components
to help me decide on the purchase.
Thanks a lot!
Japson
Malaysia.
email:jap...@pc.jaring.my
James W. Durkin
"BATMAN" <jap...@pc.jaring.my> writes:
> I've heard the Extrema recently and am very impressed by its
> performance and killer looks. However, I was told that it has to be
> driven by at least 300 watts power amp in the likes of Krells to
> bring out the magic.
I've heard, and been impressed by, these speakers too. While they're
not the type of product you want to use with a low-powered tube amp,
you're not going to need to drop $10K on an amp to get out of them
what they're capable of delivering. I've heard them perform
extremely well (no problem with bass output or control) with a Classe
CA-300. Yes, it's 300 watts (into 8 ohms), but it won't set you back
what a 300 watt Krell will run (~$9-10K, if I recall correctly). I've
also heard of people getting good results using the small Levinson 33X
series amp (100 watts / channel). I suspect, although Steve Zipser
would be qualified to comment here, that one of the PASS amps would
probably be a good match too.
There are very, very few speakers that *need* to be driven by the
biggest, highest wattage, most expensive amps available. They may
sound somewhat better given that level of ancillary hardware, but they
rarely need it to perform adequately. Now Fabio's Martin-Logan
Statements may be the exception, but the Sonus Fabers (IMO) aren't.
Find someone who knows the product a touch better than whoever gave
you this tidbit of (mis)advice ...
[[ James W. Durkin -- j...@graphics.cornell.edu ]]
[[ Program of Computer Graphics -- Cornell University ]]
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@graphics.cornell.edu (James W. Durkin) writes:
>"BATMAN" <jap...@pc.jaring.my> writes:
>> I've heard the Extrema recently and am very impressed by its
>> performance and killer looks. However, I was told that it has to be
>> driven by at least 300 watts power amp in the likes of Krells to
>> bring out the magic.
> I've heard, and been impressed by, these speakers too. While
> they're not the type of product you want to use with a low-powered
> tube amp, you're not going to need to drop $10K on an amp to get out
> of them what they're capable of delivering. I've heard them perform
> extremely well (no problem with bass output or control) with a
> Classe CA-300. Yes, it's 300 watts (into 8 ohms), but it won't set
> you back what a 300 watt Krell will run (~$9-10K, if I recall
> correctly). I've also heard of people getting good results using
> the small Levinson 33X series amp (100 watts / channel). I suspect,
> although Steve Zipser would be qualified to comment here, that one
> of the PASS amps would probably be a good match too.
I seriously doubt that about the PASS. Aren't they single-ended class
A and therefore by definition unable to drive very low impedance
loads? The Extrema has a very 'extreme' crossover which drops the
load impedance close to an ohm over a wide band. Otherwise of course
you're right, only the ability to drive a ohm without buckling counts,
so the Sumo Andromeda and Audiolab 8000M will cope also, although the
Audiolab would be about the lower limit of sensible amplification for
these speakers. Even chamber music has transients..........
> There are very, very few speakers that *need* to be driven by the
> biggest, highest wattage, most expensive amps available. They may
> sound somewhat better given that level of ancillary hardware, but
> they rarely need it to perform adequately. Now Fabio's Martin-Logan
> Statements may be the exception, but the Sonus Fabers (IMO) aren't.
> Find someone who knows the product a touch better than whoever gave
> you this tidbit of (mis)advice ...
I seriously considered Extremas when I bought my Duettas. The Apogees
are a doddle to drive compared to these beasts, this is fact from a
direct side-by-side comparison. Extremas are NOT easy to drive and
they DO need an amp of at least 100W/8ohms which will stay clean into
a one ohm load. This is not a big area of the amplifier market......
The Sumo Andromeda will however do an excellent job without outrageous
expense, a biamped pair will be even kinder on the power supplies and
the Extrema is the only speaker I can think of which would actually
benefit from simple parallel bi-amping in this way.
qaq...@bios.unc.edu
>I've heard the Extrema recently and am very impressed by its
>performance and killer looks. However, I was told that it has to be
>driven by at least 300 watts power amp in the likes of Krells to bring
>out the magic.
>
>Anyone using these beauties, please advise your ancillary components
>to help me decide on the purchase.
The 1992 review in Stereophile, by Martin Colloms, indicates that the
impedence is 4 ohms minimum, 4-9 ohms from 10 Hz to 10 KHz and
increases slowly beyond 10 KHz. The reactive component is very mild.
MC recommends high-quality solid state amps of 150 wpc (x8 ohms) or
more with current capability up to 10 Amps. Remember, these can be
driven to 110 dB SPL, which is unusual for such "monitor" speakers.
So, if the power is there they certainly can use it.
Because they sound very clean, they may not sound "loud". Keep an eye
on the sound-level meter !
bq
tde...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net
What might be the result of driving them with an ARC CL-60?
Lawrence Howson
James W. Durkin <j...@graphics.cornell.edu> wrote in article
> I've heard, and been impressed by, these speakers too. While
> they're not the type of product you want to use with a low-powered
> tube amp, you're not going to need to drop $10K on an amp to get out
> of them what they're capable of delivering. I've heard them perform
> extremely well (no problem with bass output or control) with a
> Classe CA-300.
I have been driving my Extremas with a Classe Twenty Five (250W/ch,
prior model to the CA-300). There are certainly no problems in terms
of control or drive using this amp, although my dealer suggests that
they are much better with a pair of 25s operating in bridged mode
(1000W/ch) as monoblocks.
However, just last week I had an opportunity to hook the Extremas up
to a Cary CAD-805B amplifier(s). These are single ended triodes
operating at 50W/ch (the amps which Stereophile and TAS have raved
about). I was expecting to be underwhelmed by them in the areas that
single ended amps typically do less well in - bass foundation, soft
treble extremes, lack of drive. I was surprised. These amps produced
some of the most palpable, solid musical images that I have ever
heard. The Extremas are a very transparent transducer (almost
disappearing in the way a Martin Logan CLSIIz can do so well). With
the Carys, they jumped to a new level of "not thereness". I forgot
about the glowing hulks driving them, and just sank into the
music. Bass lines were presented with body, and articulated
excellently. I wasn't aware of any fall of at the high frequency
extremes - delicate brush work on cymbals were even more vivid than
with the Classe amp. But the midrange was just stupendous. Vocals were
focussed, three dimensional, and just THERE! (I particularly remember
the tracks on Janis Ian' Breaking Silence - Analogue Productions gold
CD re-issue).
In summary, don't be backward in trying the Extremas on less powerful
amps (like the Carys or the Pass Aleph 0,2 or 3). They can certainly
cope with the megawatt big boys, but can also produce some of the most
transparent music with the more delicate low powered amps.
Cheers,
Lawrence Howson
ta...@h130.aone.net.au
James W. Durkin
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
> j...@graphics.cornell.edu (James W. Durkin) writes:
>> I've heard, and been impressed by, these speakers too. While
>> they're not the type of product you want to use with a low-powered
>> tube amp, you're not going to need to drop $10K on an amp to get
>> out of them what they're capable of delivering. I've heard them
>> perform extremely well (no problem with bass output or control)
>> with a Classe CA-300.
>> I suspect, although Steve Zipser would be qualified to comment
>> here, that one of the PASS amps would probably be a good match too.
> I seriously doubt that about the PASS. Aren't they single-ended class
> A and therefore by definition unable to drive very low impedance
> loads? The Extrema has a very 'extreme' crossover which drops the
> load impedance close to an ohm over a wide band. Otherwise of course
> you're right, only the ability to drive a ohm without buckling counts,
> so the Sumo Andromeda and Audiolab 8000M will cope also, although the
> Audiolab would be about the lower limit of sensible amplification for
> these speakers. Even chamber music has transients..........
I think we essentially agree, but you bring up a good point here. I
don't know how well the PASS amps would drive the Extremas, as I've
never actually listened to the combo. I was merely speculating. I'm
certain there are some PASS amps that *won't* handle the load
presented by these speakers. But some of the large models deliver in
excess of 100 watts across a range of loads, so I assume they would
probably manage fine. I had hoped to bait Steve Zipser into a
response, but he seems to be keeping a low profile these days
(vacation maybe). It would make for an interesting experiment
certainly; "the hot amp of the month meets the speakers with the
killer impedance curve". The Thrilla in Manillas, Book Two ...
Does the Extrema really drop to one ohm across a broad range? I know
it goes low, but *that* low ...
>> There are very, very few speakers that *need* to be driven by the
>> biggest, highest wattage, most expensive amps available. They may
>> sound somewhat better given that level of ancillary hardware, but
>> they rarely need it to perform adequately. Now Fabio's Martin-Logan
>> Statements may be the exception, but the Sonus Fabers (IMO) aren't.
>>
>> Find someone who knows the product a touch better than whoever gave
>> you this tidbit of (mis)advice ...
> I seriously considered Extremas when I bought my Duettas. The Apogees
> are a doddle to drive compared to these beasts, this is fact from a
> direct side-by-side comparison. Extremas are NOT easy to drive and
> they DO need an amp of at least 100W/8ohms which will stay clean into
> a one ohm load. This is not a big area of the amplifier market......
>
> The Sumo Andromeda will however do an excellent job without outrageous
> expense, a biamped pair will be even kinder on the power supplies and
> the Extrema is the only speaker I can think of which would actually
> benefit from simple parallel bi-amping in this way.
From what I've read of the Sumo amp, and what I heard a number of
years back from earlier models in their line, I suspect you're right.
Sumo is not a line I run into much in my travels these days. Too bad.
The point was *not*, however, that the Extremas don't represent a
tough load. The point *was* that even given that load, you don't need
to drop $10K on a, for instance, 300 watt Krell amp to drive them
adequately. The amp that springs immediately to my mind based on
personal experience is the Classe CA-300. I know it'll drive the
Extremas to ear splitting levels without a hiccup, because I've heard
it do so. There are other candidates for the job too, as you've
pointed out in your remarks about the Sumo Andromeda.
I guess it just bugs me when people are given the (mis)advice that
speaker XYZ needs the likes of some certain "killer" amp that is going
to set them back a year's mortgage payments. I've not run across many
such beasts in my travels, and I'll be *very* surprised the day I do.
Regardless, I think we espousing similar, if not identical,
philosophies.
A concluding story on theme:
A friend at a certain speaker company with a reputation for making
speakers with fairly difficult impedance curves fielded a call from
an overseas customer. The customer owned an earlier model of
speaker from that company, and was driving it successfully with a
Levinsion 23.5. He was interested in newest speaker the company had
to offer, but being larger he assumed it was even tougher to drive.
He was firmly convinced that nothing short of the Levinson Model 33
monoblocks (at $32,000 the pair) would do the trick. Merely
dispelling this customer of this notion was a major chore. The 23.5
would drive these speakers just fine. It certainly had at more than
one CES show, anyway.
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)
James W. Durkin wrote:
> > I seriously doubt that about the PASS. Aren't they single-ended class
> > A and therefore by definition unable to drive very low impedance
> > loads? The Extrema has a very 'extreme' crossover which drops the
> > load impedance close to an ohm over a wide band. Otherwise of course
> > you're right, only the ability to drive a ohm without buckling counts,
> > so the Sumo Andromeda and Audiolab 8000M will cope also, although the
> > Audiolab would be about the lower limit of sensible amplification for
> > these speakers. Even chamber music has transients..........
The PASS drive low impedence loads just fine - remember they are FETS
not TOOBS. Actually the PASS Aleph One's and 1.2's would have
absolutely no problem driveing the Extrema's. The little Aleph Three
even puts out over 120wpc into low loads - I see no reason why it
wouldn't drive them within limits. I think the Aleph O monos or the
Aleph 2 monos would be a bare (realistic) minimum, though.
> I think we essentially agree, but you bring up a good point here. I
> don't know how well the PASS amps would drive the Extremas, as I've
> never actually listened to the combo. I was merely speculating. I'm
> certain there are some PASS amps that *won't* handle the load
> presented by these speakers.
I have heard the Electa Amators with Aleph O monos, and they wored
superbly.
> But some of the large models deliver in
> excess of 100 watts across a range of loads, so I assume they would
> probably manage fine.
They do
> I had hoped to bait Steve Zipser into a
> response, but he seems to be keeping a low profile these days
> (vacation maybe).
I was at the Acapulco Princess with Gigi (mi sposa) for 5 & 1/2 days
> It would make for an interesting experiment
> certainly; "the hot amp of the month
year or decade is more like it if you read the funny papers :)
> meets the speakers with the
> killer impedance curve". The Thrilla in Manillas, Book Two ...
> Does the Extrema really drop to one ohm across a broad range? I know
> it goes low, but *that* low ...
Wouldn't be unique. Infinity RS-1b's, Kappa 9's, Apogee Skintillas all
went that low.
> >> There are very, very few speakers that *need* to be driven by the
> >> biggest, highest wattage, most expensive amps available.
How 'bout old Magneplanar Tympani's?
> > I seriously considered Extremas when I bought my Duettas.
Another glutton for punishment type load!
> > The Apogees
> > are a doddle to drive compared to these beasts, this is fact from a
> > direct side-by-side comparison. Extremas are NOT easy to drive and
> > they DO need an amp of at least 100W/8ohms which will stay clean into
> > a one ohm load. This is not a big area of the amplifier market......
> > The Sumo Andromeda will however do an excellent job without outrageous
> > expense,
So will any Bryston 4B
[quote deletion - wsr]
> A concluding story on theme:
>
> A friend at a certain speaker company with a reputation for making
> speakers with fairly difficult impedance curves fielded a call from
> an overseas customer. The customer owned an earlier model of
> speaker from that company, and was driving it successfully with a
> Levinsion 23.5. He was interested in newest speaker the company had
> to offer, but being larger he assumed it was even tougher to drive.
> He was firmly convinced that nothing short of the Levinson Model 33
> monoblocks (at $32,000 the pair) would do the trick. Merely
> dispelling this customer of this notion was a major chore. The 23.5
> would drive these speakers just fine. It certainly had at more than
> one CES show, anyway.
Well, he went from a 5 to a 6 on a 10 scale :)
Viva Mexico!
Zip
Stewart Pinkerton
"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)" <z...@netrunner.net> writes:
>> > I seriously doubt that about the PASS. Aren't they single-ended class
>> > A and therefore by definition unable to drive very low impedance
>> > loads?
>The PASS drive low impedence loads just fine - remember they are FETS
>not TOOBS. Actually the PASS Aleph One's and 1.2's would have
>absolutely no problem driveing the Extrema's. The little Aleph Three
>even puts out over 120wpc into low loads - I see no reason why it
>wouldn't drive them within limits. I think the Aleph O monos or the
>Aleph 2 monos would be a bare (realistic) minimum, though.
Regardless of the active device, if it's single-ended class A it
CANNOT hput out more current than peak for its class A rated load in
the non-driven polarity, so if the Aleph 3 is rated say 60 watts class
A into 4 ohms there is no way it can supply enough current for a lower
load. What is its official rating anyway?
Stewart Pinkerton
j...@graphics.cornell.edu (James W. Durkin) writes:
>Does the Extrema really drop to one ohm across a broad range? I know
>it goes low, but *that* low ...
Bzzzzzzt!! Screw-up alert! No, it doesn't. It has a weird crossover
which has no capacitors. The tweeter is wired with an inductor in
parallel, so that at low frequencies it is virtually a dead short, but
there is a resistor in series with that inductor, which gets so hot it
has its own heatsink on the back of the speaker. The combined
impedance of the whole speaker is in fact 4 ohms or so, mainly
resistive, so it sucks a lot of power at low frequencies but nothing a
good amp from the Audiolab upward can't handle. A pair of Sumo
Andromedas used as monoblocs feeding the bass and tweeter separately
(your basic bi-amping) works extremely (sorry!) well with this beast,
which has a claimed sensitivity of 88dB/watt but seems to need serious
power to get it going (note it does still sound very detailed at low
levels, but amps below 100 watts seem to clip on every drumbeat!)
>The point was *not*, however, that the Extremas don't represent a
>tough load. The point *was* that even given that load, you don't need
>to drop $10K on a, for instance, 300 watt Krell amp to drive them
>adequately. The amp that springs immediately to my mind based on
>personal experience is the Classe CA-300. I know it'll drive the
>Extremas to ear splitting levels without a hiccup, because I've heard
>it do so. There are other candidates for the job too, as you've
>pointed out in your remarks about the Sumo Andromeda.
I absolutely agree on that. I first heard the Extremas being used with
a pair of the old Classe DR-10s, which had enough grunt to be used as
bridged monoblocs - now that takes serious power supplies with a 4 ohm
load! I don't know why Stereopile doesn't rate them, to my ears Classe
amps are right up there with the best of the high-end.
>I guess it just bugs me when people are given the (mis)advice that
>speaker XYZ needs the likes of some certain "killer" amp that is going
>to set them back a year's mortgage payments. I've not run across many
>such beasts in my travels, and I'll be *very* surprised the day I do.
>Regardless, I think we espousing similar, if not identical,
>philosophies.
Yep, couldn't agree more, especially those silly SET's at ludicrous
prices. I haven't heard a high-end amp yet that sounds noticeably
better than a Sumo Andromeda III, which gives a solid 240 watts of
clean and sweet sound with all the bass slam you could ask for at less
than $2,000. The Classe CA-200 is also excellent and I certainly have
no doubt that the difference in price between these amps and the new
Krell 'FPB' 150 or the Pass Aleph 0 would be better spent on the
speakers. I'm not biased since I use a Krell myself, but I wouldn't
buy a new one!
> A friend at a certain speaker company with a reputation for making
> speakers with fairly difficult impedance curves fielded a call from
> an overseas customer. The customer owned an earlier model of
> speaker from that company, and was driving it successfully with a
> Levinsion 23.5. He was interested in newest speaker the company had
> to offer, but being larger he assumed it was even tougher to drive.
> He was firmly convinced that nothing short of the Levinson Model 33
> monoblocks (at $32,000 the pair) would do the trick. Merely
> dispelling this customer of this notion was a major chore. The 23.5
> would drive these speakers just fine. It certainly had at more than
> one CES show, anyway.
It never fails to amaze me how people who really should know better
can't get their heads around this simple bit of physics. Getting good
bass response from a smallish box demands that the system is very
insensitive and needs lots of power (whether the drive units can
handle it is another story of course). Make the box bigger and the
speaker can either have deeper bass or be more sensitive, thereby
needing LESS power for the same sound level. It's all in those dB/watt
numbers, but can you get people to believe it?
My favourite examples are the shoebox-sized ATC SCM10 and the simply
colossal Wilson X-1 Grand SLAMM. While either speaker will handle a
300 watt amp (a remarkable feat in the ATCs case), the ATC has a
sensitivity of only 80dB/w/m, while the Wilson is 95dB/w/m, so that if
you're putting the full 300 watts into the SCM10, to get the same
sound level out of the X-1 needs less than 10 watts!
Of course, trying to tell people this generally just gets them
assuming you got the figures the wrong way round (sigh). The little
ATC is a superb speaker, but it's the only high-end speaker I know of
which actually NEEDS an amp that costs as much as the speaker, at
$2,000! As it happens, the Andromeda also does an excellent job with
the ATC, which is ruthlessly revealing of less than perfect treble
sweetness, a particular strength of Sumos MOSFET designs. Another
interesting parallel is that ATC and Wilson seem to be the only
high-end speaker makers who do not provide the option of bi-wiring.
Alan Hsu
James W. Durkin wrote:
> pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) writes:
>> The Extrema has a very 'extreme' crossover which drops the load
>> impedance close to an ohm over a wide band.
> Does the Extrema really drop to one ohm across a broad range? I know
> it goes low, but *that* low ...
[ quoted text deleted -- jwd ]
I read in in a magazine (Don't ask me which magazine it is, as I read
about a dozen audio and video magazines a month, so it's really
difficult to keep track) that Krell rose to stardom as it was one of
the very few amps that were capable of driving Apogees back then. And
Classe was among the very few, too.
Alan
PSiu89449
pat...@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:
>which has no capacitors. The tweeter is wired with an inductor in
>parallel, so that at low frequencies it is virtually a dead short, but
>there is a resistor in series with that inductor, which gets so hot it
Just curious, and to set the record straight, wasn't this power
resistor in series with the positive leg going to the tweeter/inductor
parallel circuit. I think Sonus Faber was also using this resistor to
pad down this tweeter to match the mid-woofer. Please kindly correct
me if I'm wrong.
Best Regard
Paul Siu
Kerry Legeard
"Lawrence Howson" <ta...@h130.aone.net.au> wrote:
>In summary, don't be backward in trying the Extremas on less powerful
>amps (like the Carys or the Pass Aleph 0,2 or 3). They can certainly
>cope with the megawatt big boys, but can also produce some of the most
>transparent music with the more delicate low powered amps.
Caution must be exercised using the Extrema with relatively
underpowered amplifiers, especially ones with soft clipping
characteristics. Due to the nature of the crossover, there is no
protection offerred to the drivers from amplifiers driven into
clipping. Long term exposure to clipping will invariably destroy the
woofers according to Sumiko's Jim Alexander, and at US$1750 per driver
plus Jim's time and shipping (unless you can install them yourself),
it can be a painful learning experience.
The tendency to drive relatively low powered amps into clipping on
this speaker is high due to their "extremaly" inefficient crossover
design. It is precisely this inefficient first order resistive
-inductive crossover design that calls into question the requirement
for amplification. It is the sensitivity/efficiency of this design
that is the challenge, NOT the impedance!
I am relatively happy driving my Extremas with 175 watts of
ultralinear tube amplification, but I find switching my amp to 85
watts of EL34 triode too restrictive in terms of dynamics and as
Martin Collums puts it, pace and rhythm.
The best of both worlds is available out there, but alas I believe
there is some truth to the feeling that it is only available in the
megawatt tube amplifier league. People who's ears I trust and who's
circle of aquantance allows exposure have told me the extremas driven
by the Jadis JA500's (and I would assume the new JA800's) are truly
magic. Now, certainly these behemoths are not for most of us mortals,
but the comment serves for illustration purposes. The Defy 7 doesn't
cut it, at least in the Mark II version which I owned.
As for solid state, well, I have chosen my compromise for
amplification based on my personal tastes. I would rather live with
an "underpowered" tube amp than any of the high powered transistor
designs I have heard to date, and no I haven't heard the new designs
from PASS or the very latest Krells, but hope that one day I will find
the right transistor amplifier that will make me forget about tubes.
At the risk of being flamed, I personally believe that a minimum of
300 watts into 4 ohms is necessary to make this speaker do what it is
capable of in terms of dynamics and base response. Whether this is
supplied by transistors or tubes is of course a question of musical
priorities and personal economics. Anything less (that I've heard at
least) is a compromise, including (and perhaps especially)SE triodes,
which I love, but would NEVER mate with my Extremas.
Kerry Legeard
#;)>
Stewart Pinkerton
psiu...@aol.com (PSiu89449) writes:
You are correct, that was my meaning but I see my choice of words was
ambiguous. The crossover is very simple, there is one inductor wired
in series with the bass/mid unit giving a first order low-pass
characteristic, while the power resistor is as you say wired in series
with the parallel combination of tweeter and inductor, so that the
resistor does the double duty of forming the resistive leg of the
first order high-pass filter and also adjusting the tweeter level down
to match that of the bass/mid driver.