KSA-150 v/s Aleph 0 Mono
sud
My high-end dealer has got a pair of Aleph 0 Monoblocks for a pretty
good price (50% Off the list) and am considering upgrading my Krell
KSA-150 to these monoblocks. Now I am not sure whether these would
really drive my Apogee Centaur minors. I also seem to like the Krell
sound , which has a very detailed & crisp high end and very
transparent & detailed sound. I also do-not like any warmth in my
midrange. Now does the Aleph cater to my likes ? This is my only
chance to buy these legendary Amps, but is it really over & above my
krells...?
I would really appreciate some input...
Thanks in advance,
sudesh.
e-mail:: s...@openix.com
Stewart Pinkerton
sud <s...@openix.com> writes:
[ quoted text deleted -- rgd ]
>midrange. Now does the Aleph cater to my likes ? This is my only
>chance to buy these legendary Amps, but is it really over & above my
>krells...?
Legendary? As in not real, mythological, figment of the imagination?
If you don't want warmth in the midrange and are concerned about power
capability, stick with the Krell! Why would you think the Aleph 0 is
an upgrade? If you must have an upgrade hit, get a new CD player or
some new speakers, leave the amp alone!
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo Inc.)
> sud <s...@openix.com> writes:
> [ quoted text deleted -- rgd ]
> >midrange. Now does the Aleph cater to my likes ? This is my only
> >chance to buy these legendary Amps, but is it really over & above my
> >krells...?
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> Legendary? As in not real, mythological, figment of the imagination?
Legendary: Description of extraordinary events passed down through
generations. It has nothing to do with mythical, figment, or not
real. Muhammed Ali is a legend in his own time, for example.
> If you don't want warmth in the midrange and are concerned about power
> capability, stick with the Krell! Why would you think the Aleph 0 is
> an upgrade? If you must have an upgrade hit, get a new CD player or
> some new speakers, leave the amp alone!
Here is the crux of the matter! Stewart, who replies to the first
poster, owns Krell amps. But, he has obviously never compared the
KSA-150 with the Aleph O's. I have, in fact, Dan sold me a KSA-150
five years ago. The Aleph Zero's are much better sounding. Yes they
are warmer in the midrange, voices have much more body thru the PASS,
the PASS are MUCH MORE 3 dimensional, and ultimately, they are more
caccurate in the reproduction of tapes I have made of live concerts.
The Krell sounds course, bright and harsh next to the PASS. The Krell
is distinctly 2-dimensional by comparison. Cheers & happy listening
Zip
PS: Standard Disclaimer - I am a dealer, I am a pass dealer, I wasn't
always a dealer - the devil made me do it.
PSiu89449
Steve Zipser (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
>Here is the crux of the matter! Stewart, who replies to the first
>poster, owns Krell amps. But, he has obviously never compared the
Yes, Mr. Zipser is honest about the fact that he is a PASS dealer. As
a current owner of 2 x KSA-150's in vertical bi-amp, I had also
considered the Aleph 0's or 2's. Unfortunately, due to my geographic
location, there are no PASS dealer around my area to audition let
alone home trial. It would benefit us, want-to-be Aleph owners, if
someone other than a PASS dealer would give us their un-bias opinion
on this subject. Due to my speaker requirement, I will need four
channels of high-quality amplification and taking a chance on 2 pairs
of Aleph's can be a sizeable investment.
>I have, in fact Dan sold me a KSA-150
>five years ago. The Aleph Zero's are much better sounding. Yes they
>are warmer in the midrange, voices have much more body thru the PASS,
>the PASS are MUCH MORE 3 dimensional, and ultimately, they are more
>caccurate in the reproduction of tapes I have made of live concerts.
>The Krell sounds course, bright and harsh next to the PASS. The Krell
>is distinctly 2-dimensional by camparison.
Warmer midrange and more body not necessary translates to better
accuracy. Short of having my own live concert recordings, I have no
way to dispute Mr. Zipser's claim. Furthermore, such dispute may deem
unnecessary if not counter productive. Next to the PASS, the Krells
may sound course, bright and harsh. But my personal experience with
Krells next to my VTL Deluxe 225s, the Krells fare quite well. Even
next to my previsous reference, conrad johnson Premiere 1b, the Krells
can hold it's own especially in terms of dynamics and dimension. For
me, I'm looking for a second pair of identical VTL's and have them
tweaked if such opportunity comes along.
Best Regard
Paul Siu
Todd Samost
In article <4tu49h$s...@biosun.harvard.edu>, psiu...@aol.com says...
> It would benefit us, want-to-be Aleph owners, if
> someone other than a PASS dealer would give us their un-bias opinion
> on this subject. Due to my speaker requirement, I will need four
> channels of high-quality amplification and taking a chance on 2 pairs
> of Aleph's can be a sizeable investment.
I cannot speak directly from experience on the KSA-150 vs. Aleph 0,
but I can offer two things:
1) I replaced a KSA-50S w/a Pass Aleph 3 last December (approx), and
am VERY happy with the decision, having heard improvements top to
bottom and everywhere in between :)
2) A gent with whom I used to work, and in whose ears I trust very
highly, had just recently bought a KSA-150 used to drive his Martin
Logan CLS's. Well, within about 2 weeks, he put it up for sale,
telling me he was going with the Pass Aleph 0s (stereo version). For
him to make that kind of snap decision says something dang good about
the Pass equipment.
Todd.
Carl Flygare
I have listened extensively to the Aleph 3 (40 Watts/channel, stereo),
the Aleph 2 (100 Watt monoblock) and their larger brother, the "Big
One" Aleph 1 (200 Watt monoblock). All three represent Nelson9s
second generation of MOSFET single ended designs. The Aleph 3 and 2
only utilize two gain stages while the Aleph 1 utilizes 3 (but Nelson
recently started shipping Aleph 19s with only two gain stages as
well).
All three amplifiers share a strong family resemblence: smooth
extended highs, utter transparency, detail that simply sounds real, an
excellent sense of depth and soundstaging, excellent dymanics (macro
and micro), along with enough base slam to send your woofers or
subwoofers running for cover.
The Aleph 3 sounds (to my ears at least) like the "sweetest" of the
three, but it9s a photo finish since the Aleph 1 and 2 are very close.
Lovers of single-ended tube euphonia may have a hard time dealing with
the absence of gross colorations due to unfortunate amplifier/speaker
interactions. Personally I find it impossible to live with them hence
my enthuiasm for any of these amplifiers. I fully agree with Fi
Magazine's assessment of the Aleph 3: it is an "instant classic".
The Aleph 2 and Aleph 1 are instant classics IMHO as well. Powerful
amplifiers frequently trade sublety and nuance for brawn. Either of
these Alephs delivers both.
After listening to the Krell KSA-200 and 300 (and Mark Levinson,
Classe, Threshold, and several others) I put my money where my mouth
is and bought some Alephs!
Best of luck in your search, enjoy the music.
Carl
philip ganderton
Having read a few of the posts on this thread, I would like to add
some comments based on my listening of these two components (and all
Krell and Pass components additionally).
(For fear of turning this into a r.a.opinion thread) I find a
significant difference between these two products along the lines of
"one sounds solid state, the other tube-like."
Hence, the gentleman who dumped the Krell after 2 weeks for the Pass
may easily have been chosing between the amps based on personal
preference (ie "I like the sound of that amp better than the sound of
the other amp.")
In terms of "performance" both amps will drive difficult loads like
Apogees. Other than any manufacturing faults, I cant see any criteria
for chosing between amps other than how they sound, what they look
like and how much they cost.
thanks,
phil ganderton
James W. Durkin
gan...@unm.edu (philip ganderton) writes:
> (For fear of turning this into a r.a.opinion thread)
Oh, shudder ....
> I find a significant difference between these two products along the
> lines of "one sounds solid state, the other tube-like."
This is probably an over simplification; we're painting what is
inherently shades of grey in binary black and white. Not a criticism
of the poster per say, but one of my pet peeves.
Still, the Krell sounds a lot like many other big buck solid state
amps, while the Pass sounds much less so. I guess we can call that
other end of the spectrum "tube-like", but I still find them to sound
more like solid-state amps than classic tube amps.
> Hence, the gentleman who dumped the Krell after 2 weeks for the Pass
> may easily have been chosing between the amps based on personal
> preference (ie "I like the sound of that amp better than the sound
> of the other amp.")
Likely true, and when one considers that fact, a lot of the pro-Pass
advice given in this thread just doesn't make sense to me. The
original poster stated a decided preference for the attributes of the
(in)famous "Krell sound". I think we largely agree that the Pass amps
don't sound much like the Krells. Given that, the natural advice
would seem to be
"The Pass amps offer a rather different sound than do the Krells.
If you're really a fan of the Krells, you very well may find the
Pass amps not to your tastes. Give them an audition, but spring
for them sound unheard."
I think people get too caught up in their own likes and dislikes in
giving advice, and fail to take into account the situation of the
person asking for the advice. Another pet peeve of mine, I guess.
And none of the remarks above in any way suggest that the Pass
products aren't just the greatest thing since sliced bread ...
> In terms of "performance" both amps will drive difficult loads like
> Apogees. Other than any manufacturing faults, I cant see any
> criteria for chosing between amps other than how they sound, what
> they look like and how much they cost.
This is the area where I have a question.
I heard a pair of Pass monoblocks in a system with a set of fairly
hard to drive full-range dynamic speakers. The system sounded
downright dull (and it hadn't when I had heard it previously, with
different electronics). It's not simply that it lacked the hard edge
of classic solid-state, but it sounded withdrawn, flat, and lackluster
from top end to bottom. It sounded very much like the amps just
didn't have the juice that was required.
So, has anyone with more first-hand experience than I found a set of
speakers that were simply a bad match for the Pass amps? If so, which
ones.
[[ James W. Durkin -- j...@graphics.cornell.edu ]]
[[ Program of Computer Graphics -- Cornell University ]]
Slug310630
To add yet another variable--I compared my longterm KSA 150 with Pass
2s. These were driving my Theil 3.6s and were compared in my home.
The Pass amps added a lushness/smoothness and sounded great for most
jazz(octets and smaller) and classical(groupsof all sizes), but just
didn't do it for me with rock recordings. Perhaps the Pass amps lacked
the ability to project the rawness that some rock needs. Certainly,
both ampscoulddrive the Theils without problem. Good luck. Slug310630
Blandp1
A while back (~10 mo.) I was looking to buy a new amp. I auditioned
the M-L 331, the Pass Aleph 2, the C-J Premier 12 monoblocks, and the
Audio Research VT-130. At the begining of my search my bias was very
much for tube amps.
I found the Premier 12's not at all to my liking. In a word, they
screeched in the treble and sounded raged. Not at all what I wanted
from a tube (or any) amp.
The VT-30 sounded, very, very good. Detailed yet smooth sounding,
great 3D soundstage, decent bass and that hard to define "lifelike"
quality to the sound that I always hope for in a component.
The Aleph 2 sounded like the VT-130, only infeior. Not as detailed
sounded, slightly less believable soundstage, not as much "life" to
the music. Its bass, however, was far better.
The M-L 331 didn't sound like the VT-130, but the detail, smoothness,
bass, soundstage and most important (to me) "life" was all there in
spades. This is the best amp I have every heard. Needless to say, I
bought it.
IMHO, if you like the sound of the Aleph 2, and bass is not you
biggest musical turn-on, listen to the VT-130. It does everything the
Aleph 2 does, only better (bass excepted). If you like what the
VT-130 does, listen to the M-L 331. It takes a different road to the
sound, but arrives at the destination in far better shape.
Oh, two final thoughts: All three of these amps are extremely fine
amps. I could be happy with any. The VT-130 is one of ugliest pieces
of consumer electronics I have ever seen. Wow!
-Philip J. Blanda III
PGP Public key available
WWCASE
> So, has anyone with more first-hand experience than I found a set of
> speakers that were simply a bad match for the Pass amps? If so,
> which ones.
To me, the Aleph 0's were dull on Quests (preZ model) even when used
with the AlephP preamp. It just wasn't involving. My mind would
always wander from listening. The pattern was that listeners would
say what a great amp it was, then unrelated conversations would always
break out while it was playing. That never happened with other amps.
I chose the Classe CA300.
Bill Case
Richard Brkich
James W. Durkin wrote:
> I heard a pair of Pass monoblocks in a system with a set of fairly
> hard to drive full-range dynamic speakers. The system sounded
> downright dull (and it hadn't when I had heard it previously, with
> different electronics). It's not simply that it lacked the hard edge
> of classic solid-state, but it sounded withdrawn, flat, and lackluster
> from top end to bottom. It sounded very much like the amps just
> didn't have the juice that was required.
>
> speakers that were simply a bad match for the Pass amps? If so, which
> ones.
Hi James,
My experience with the Pass Labs amps (the two stage Alpeh 2 & 3
models) has been that they are rather cable sensitive. The Alpeh 3 for
example has a 23K ohm input impedance and a higher than normal output
impedance for a solid state amp (due to the single ended class A
nature of its design) which makes it a bit sensitive to cables. The
Aleph 0 has a 10K ohm input impedance which can cause some pretty
awful performance if it is not used with a fairly low output impedance
(read solid state) preamp. I have yet to run into a set of speaks that
the Aleph 3 sounded really crappy with, but I have not tried the amp
with more than a handfull of different speakers.
Happy Listening
Rich Brkich
Owner, Signature Sound