A curious observation on audio and music newsgroups
Jiahua Lu
I have been reading both rec.audio.xxx and rec.music.classical.xxx for
a while, and a curious thought came up to me today: we all agree that
a true audiophile's ultimate interest is in the music, and audio
equipment only serves as a means to an end... But I've never seen a
regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE posting in any of the
classical newsgroups. All the big-shots who probably use up 75% of
the audio newsgroup space *never* post in any music newsgroups. I
know there are some people like me who occasionally post in both
areas(and get rejected for some stupid reason like multiple posting :),
but I just think that it is curious that most audio gurus on the net
seem to be much more interested in audio than in music, which again,
should be where the ultimate interest lies. (The reverse is also true,
that is, all the heavy posters in rec.music.classical.recording
never bother to post in audio newsgroups -- they seem to be too busy
*listening* to their *music*.)
Just my .02
Jiahua Lu
jiah...@princeton.edu
Brian Lenharth
Jiahua Lu (jiah...@Princeton.EDU) wrote:
: equipment only serves as a means to an end... But I've never seen a
: regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE posting in any of the
: the audio newsgroup space *never* post in any music newsgroups. I
Begging to differ with you, but I have found:
Mr. Gabe Weiner (sorry if I reversed the ie-ei, even Stereophile
does so) has regularly posted to the music groups, especially
rec.music.early
Mr. Dick Pierce appears to be an accomplished musician whose
musical interests parallel mine (for what that's worth). I
have not seen that he posts a lot to the music groups, but
I imagine that one has only so much time in a day and he
can at least rationalize rec.audio.* reading and posting
as being somewhat related to his business interests.
I have seen other postings from rec.audio.* regular contributors
on the music groups. Even I have done so. Personally, I
subscribe only to rec.music.early as that group most closely
matches my musical interests. Generally I listen far more
than I talk as I am a music lover, not a professional (or
even competent) musician or musicologist, and thus prefer
to listen to those who know more than I do. (the same is
true for the audio groups -- I contribute only if I have
something to say that is (1) worthwhile and/or (2) a piece
of arcane knowledge that most others are not likely to have)
One should not assume that all rec.audio.* readers are classical
music lovers. If you're an audiophile who loves late 60s
rock, you're not going to follow a group that discusses the
technicalities of Carolingian chant.
: but I just think that it is curious that most audio gurus on the net
: seem to be much more interested in audio than in music, which again,
: should be where the ultimate interest lies. (The reverse is also true,
: that is, all the heavy posters in rec.music.classical.recording
: never bother to post in audio newsgroups -- they seem to be too busy
: *listening* to their *music*.)
So??? What's the point? If you haven't noticed, the world is made
up (for better or worse) of a bunch of unique individuals with unique
interests.
--
Brian Lenharth Tele: 206-335-2389
Lake Stevens Instrument Division/ MS10 FAX: 206-335-2828
Hewlett-Packard Co. bri...@lsid.hp.com
8600 Soper Hill Road; Everett, WA 98205-1298
Richard D Pierce
In article <4mttm2$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Brian Lenharth <bri...@hplssa.lsid.hp.com> wrote:
>Jiahua Lu (jiah...@Princeton.EDU) wrote:
>: equipment only serves as a means to an end... But I've never seen a
>: regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE posting in any of the
>: classical newsgroups. All the big-shots who probably use up 75% off
>: the audio newsgroup space *never* post in any music newsgroups. I
>
>Begging to differ with you, but I have found:
>
> musical interests parallel mine (for what that's worth). I
> have not seen that he posts a lot to the music groups, but
> I imagine that one has only so much time in a day and he
> can at least rationalize rec.audio.* reading and posting
> as being somewhat related to his business interests.
Well, I appreciate the comments but I should provide a correction to
put things into perspective.
I have studied both classical piano, baroque organ and baroque
harpsichord performance. Because of recent assaults on my health (none
of which have been expected, damn it!) and numerous professional
obligations, my skill at the keyboard has deteriorated. I would not
characterize myself, therefore, as "an accomplished musician'.
Rather, I take pride in my knowledge of the repetoire I studied, of
performance practices and instrument history, design and construction.
I have spent and continue to spend a considerable amount of my time
listening to these instruments live (as I own several faithful
reproductions of historical harpsichords, am in an area of the country
that abounds in superb organs and organists, and spent not an
inconsiderable amount of time in Europe, listeing to, exploring,
measuring and playing historical instruments), and spend a large time
listening to recordings (LP's, 78's, tape, CD's and such) of the
instruments with which I am familiar.
I am in the relatively rare position, for example, of being able to
compare a recording of Couperin performed on a Hubbard reproduction of
a 1750 Taskin double to a live performance of Couperin on a Hubbard
reproduction of a 1750 Taskin double, since my listening room is also
my music room.
The resulting comparison makes some of the declarations by the more
vocal subjectivists found in this group on the subject of the
"experience" of listening to music look like utter intellectual tripe
it really is.
--
| Dick Pierce |
| Loudspeaker and Software Consulting |
| 17 Sartelle Street Pepperell, MA 01463 |
| (508) 433-9183 (Voice and FAX) |
John J. Stimson
In article <4mth6e$5...@eyrie.graphics.cornell.edu>, Jiahua Lu
<jiah...@Princeton.EDU> wrote:
>But I've never seen a regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE
>posting in any of the classical newsgroups. All the big-shots who
>probably use up 75% of the audio newsgroup space *never* post in any
>music newsgroups.
Hmm, are you generalizing based on their absense in classical groups?
Or have you indeed checked ALL other newsgroups? I don't think it's
anywhere near reasonable to expect all people who are interested in
high-quality sound reproduction to be primarily interested in
classical music.
Then again, it's possible that people who read and post here do not
read music newsgroups because the newsgroup associated with their
favorite types of music have high noise/signal ratio, while on r.a.h-e
the noise/signal ratio is only moderate ( :-) for the moderators). A
lot of the *.music.* groups are full of flame-fests (what's the worst
band ever?), idol worship (what is Phil Collins' shoe size?), and so
on.
And what about the possibility that people only post in there areas of
expertise? Yeah, I know, this IS usenet, where some people will
expound at great lengths upon subjects which they know absolutely
nothing about, but just as a hypothesis perhaps there do exist a few
people out there who exercise restraint. Some people know more about
audio hardware and technology, some people know more about music. You
can't know everything about everything (though I've known some people
who thought they did).
>but I just think that it is curious that most audio gurus on the net
>seem to be much more interested in audio than in music, which again,
>should be where the ultimate interest lies. (The reverse is also
>true,
Again, that's a silly conclusion to reach based on your observation.
"How can you be an expert on audio technology, and NOT be an expert on
music?" Not being an expert on music doesn't mean that you don't
enjoy listening to it.
Oh, well, off to rec.music.progressive to start another new-Yes
vs. old-Yes flamewar... :-) (By the way, there are definitely people
on r.m.prog who read and occasionally post to this group).
John Stimson
http://harlie.ee.cornell.edu/~john
Kurt Strain
Jiahua Lu (jiah...@Princeton.EDU) wrote:
: But I've never seen a regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE
: posting in any of the classical newsgroups.
...
: (The reverse is also true, that is, all the heavy posters in
: rec.music.classical.recording never bother to post in audio
: newsgroups -- they seem to be too busy *listening* to their
: *music*.)
First, some people like audio engineering for its own sake, not caring
whether or not it makes music or train whistles sound good.
Second, some people find audio hardware debates more interesting than
what recording was best.
Third, some of us like records, search out used records, and don't
like digital recordings, which they almost all are except reprints.
Fourth, some of us are not as interested in displaying our bad taste
in music to the public as we are in displaying our poor knowledge of
audio principles.
Kurt
John Kodis
> I've never seen a regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE
> posting in any of the classical newsgroups.
OTOH, the rec.music (or is it the rec.music.classical?) FAQ was
*written* by Gabe Wiener, who has been known to post to
rec.audio.high-end when he's not busy producing and recording
classical music for us all to enjoy.
Then there's Raymond, who's last name I can't even pronounce, much
less spell, who when not writing for Positive Feedback or posting
articles to rec.audio.you-name-it also writes the only articles worth
reading on rec.music.reviews.
> All the big-shots who probably use up 75% of the audio newsgroup
> space *never* post in any music newsgroups.
Yup. A couple of counter-examples exist, but this certainly seems to
be the situation more often than not.
> The reverse is also true, that is, all the heavy posters in
> rec.music.classical.recording never bother to post in audio
> newsgroups --
Right. This has been frequently noted and commented on.
> -- they seem to be too busy *listening* to their *music*.
Hmmm... I think you may be on to something here, Jiahua.
-- John Kodis.
SDuraybito
In article <4mth6e$5...@eyrie.graphics.cornell.edu>, jiah...@Princeton.EDU
(Jiahua Lu) writes:
[ quoted text deleted -- jwd ]
> .... I've never seen a regular poster in an audio newsgroup like
> RAHE posting in any of the classical newsgroups.
Try rec.music.bluenote.
Daniel Baker
The contention is made that since the regulars of RAHE do not often post
to the classical music groups, they must not read them and so do not care
about the music as much as the equipment and "sound."
Two assumptions are being made here. The first, mentioned before, is
that the audiophiles here will be most interested in classical music, as
opposed to other types (please tell me there are few "high enders" left
straggling around insisting the high end is only for classical music).
The second assumption is that since you don't see those people posting to
the newsgroups, they must not be reading them. On the vast majority of
newsgroups, there are *many* more lurkers than participants. For
example, the most recent estimate of RAHE readership that I have seen
stands at around 80,000. 80,000 people don't post to this newsgroup.
Even if only a quarter of those 80,000 regularly read RAHE (or even
remember they're subscribed), you're still dealing with a lot of readers
who are essentially invisible (though not by any means worthless).
I regularly read (and sometimes contribute to) the newsgroups concerning
Genesis, Marillion, Dave Matthews Band, ska music, and others -- and
discussions there often are of music on an abstract level rather than
"did this album go platinum yet?!" I usually check out some classical
and jazz groups every so often to see about good new releases.
I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most readers and participants of
RAHE have similar Usenet habits, with their preferred music.
Please check your assumptions at the door.
--Daniel Baker
Andy Trafford
Jiahua Lu <jiah...@Princeton.EDU> wrote:
> I have been reading both rec.audio.xxx and rec.music.classical.xxx
> for a while,... ...All the big-shots who probably use up 75% of the
> audio newsgroup space *never* post in any music newsgroups.
Oh we're out there reading and posting about music. You probably don't
see us because the readers of the three or four rec.audio.* groups are
spread pretty thinly amoung the 350 or so music newsgroups. Don't
forget that there is more to life than classical :)
--
* Andy "Traff" Trafford Work: traf...@pathfinder.com *
* Sybase dude. http://www.pathfinder.com *
* Music lover. Play: tr...@interport.net *
* Photoshop dabbler. http://www.interport.net/~traff *
Frank Z. Chang
Jiahua Lu <jiah...@Princeton.EDU> wrote:
> I have been reading both rec.audio.xxx and rec.music.classical.xxx
> for a while,... ...All the big-shots who probably use up 75% of the
> audio newsgroup space *never* post in any music newsgroups.
So what? I think that when it comes to audio, a person is more
inclined to have questions and opinions about equipment and not the
music he prefers to listen to. No one is going to tell me what kind of
music I should listen to, but there are people out there with
experience that can perhaps point me in the right direction on what
sort of equipment to buy. Sure, you still have to go and listen for
yourself, but it's a good starting point. And it makes sense to do a
lot more research on equipment, which can easily cost several thousand
dollars, than on a $12 CD.
I recall one post a long time ago in rec.audio.something where someone
asked if he should buy the Joan Osborn CD. Many people made fun of him
since he was asking all these questions about a simple $12 CD. There
are plenty of opportunities to listen before you buy. It doesn't
require tons of debate.
The point is, sure, in the end, the most important aspect of audio
should be the music. Afterall, that is what a system strives to do:
reproduce the _music_ as accurately as possible. However, I don't
think that there needs to be in depth discussion about the music
itself...since it is mainly personal preference. Where as with the
equipment, having a second opinion can make all the difference.
Simply because a person who posts on the audio newsgroups but not the
music ones doesn't mean he's any less of an audiophile.
--
___ __o Frank Z. Chang Audio Enthusiast
___ _ \<_ Princeton University MTB Weekend Warrior
___ (_)/(_) Computer Science Dept. F2 Shooter
Jim Andrews
In article <4mth6e$5...@eyrie.graphics.cornell.edu>,
jiah...@Princeton.EDU (Jiahua Lu) says:
>I have been reading both rec.audio.xxx and rec.music.classical.xxx for
>a while, and a curious thought came up to me today: we all agree that
>a true audiophile's ultimate interest is in the music, and audio
>equipment only serves as a means to an end... But I've never seen a
>regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE posting in any of the
>classical newsgroups. All the big-shots who probably use up 75% of
>the audio newsgroup space *never* post in any music newsgroups.
Whoops! Big generalization there.
I certainly don't qualify as a big-shot, but the reason you don't see
me posting in classical newsgroups is that I'm not as interested in
classical music as . . .
College football
Songwriting
The Replacements (one of those early-music groups)
Austin music
etc.
There are only so many hours in the day, and I limit my surfing to
about 1/2 of one of those. So, no classical music. But, high-end
audio and pro audio make the list, because they interest me.
This brings up the audiophile's claim that we _all_ agree that the
"absolute sound" is the sound of UNAMPLIFIED music in a real space.
No, we don't.
Jim Andrews
mobius
jiah...@Princeton.EDU (Jiahua Lu) wrote:
>I have been reading both rec.audio.xxx and rec.music.classical.xxx for
>a while, and a curious thought came up to me today: we all agree that
>a true audiophile's ultimate interest is in the music, and audio
>equipment only serves as a means to an end... But I've never seen a
>regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE posting in any of the
>classical newsgroups.
No, I occasionally see audiophile postings in rec.music.classical;
they're the ones that ask questions like, "Which conductor do you
prefer -- Sir Colin Davis or Oxygen-Free Copper?"
Dean C. Rowan
One reply has already enumerated the folks who regularly post to both
audio and classical music newsgroups. I occasionally post to
rec.music.early, in spite of my almost total lack of qualification in
that arena. Let me confess that I am interested in high end audio,
per se. That is, I like playing records and CDs, regardless of their
content. In my case, audio equipment does not only serve as a means
to an end. It is, as well, an end. Playing records is fun. So is
listening to good music. Further, I detect a whiff of snobbishness on
the part of the HP contingent who for years have been so irritatingly
defensive about music being the real reason for high end audio
equipment. Very little of HP's lists of "golden discs" (whatever) has
prompted me to run out and buy copies of the recordings. Casino
Royale, for crying out loud! Now, each bi-monthly issue of _Fanfare_
swells my "want list" beyond fiscal capability. Why? Because the
reviewers are truly enthusiastic about the music, not to mention
knowledgeable, and recording quality -- the hi-fi sound of the
recording -- plays a secondary role in their assessments.
Dean C. Rowan
Whittier, California
Gabe M. Wiener
In article <4mth6e$5...@eyrie.graphics.cornell.edu>,
Jiahua Lu <jiah...@Princeton.EDU> wrote:
>I have been reading both rec.audio.xxx and rec.music.classical.xxx for
>a while, and a curious thought came up to me today: we all agree that
>a true audiophile's ultimate interest is in the music, and audio
>equipment only serves as a means to an end... But I've never seen a
>regular poster in an audio newsgroup like RAHE posting in any of the
>classical newsgroups.
I guess the fact that I wrote the bloody rec.music.classical FAQ,
helped form (and regularly post to) rec.music.early, and formed
alt.music.j-s-bach singlehandedly....these obviously don't count.
Sheesh....
--
Gabe Wiener Dir., PGM Early Music Recordings |"I am terrified at the thought
A Div. of Quintessential Sound, Inc., New York | that so much hideous and bad
Recording-Mastering-Restoration (212) 586-4200 | music may be put on records
ga...@pgm.com http://www.pgm.com | forever."--Sir Arthur Sullivan
Gabe M. Wiener
In article <4mu0qq$2...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Richard D Pierce <DPi...@world.std.com> wrote:
>I am in the relatively rare position, for example, of being able to
>compare a recording of Couperin performed on a Hubbard reproduction of
>a 1750 Taskin double to a live performance of Couperin on a Hubbard
>reproduction of a 1750 Taskin double, since my listening room is also
>my music room.
Sorry to make your position less rare, Dick, but at the Stereophile
show in two weeks, our exhibit will partly consist of letting people
compare a recording of Gavin Black playing Buxtehude on a reproduction
1640 double harpsichord, to a live performance of Gavin Black playing
Buxtehude on the same repro 1640 double.
Richard D Pierce
In article <4nliop$g...@biosun.harvard.edu>,
Gabe M. Wiener <ga...@pgm.com> wrote:
>In article <4mu0qq$2...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>Richard D Pierce <DPi...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>I am in the relatively rare position, for example, of being able to
>>compare a recording of Couperin performed on a Hubbard reproduction of
>>a 1750 Taskin double to a live performance of Couperin on a Hubbard
>>reproduction of a 1750 Taskin double, since my listening room is also
>>my music room.
>
>Sorry to make your position less rare, Dick, but at the Stereophile
>show in two weeks, our exhibit will partly consist of letting people
>compare a recording of Gavin Black playing Buxtehude on a reproduction
>1640 double harpsichord, to a live performance of Gavin Black playing
>Buxtehude on the same repro 1640 double.
Oh yeah? Well I have a reproduction of Diderich Buxtehude playing
reproductions of Diderich Buxtehude's music on my reproduction of a
harpsichord in a reproduction of an authentic old house!
HA! Beat THAT one!
Chris Kantack
I think it's obvious that rec.audio.high-end should be orientated more
toward equipment and technology than the classical music newsgroups.
If I have a question on high end equipment or wish to discuss the
latest digital technology, it's natural to come to this newsgroup.
Often, when I'm into massive "listening mode", I don't even bother to
visit rec.audio.high.end at all. (But will browse the classical
newsgroups occasionaly.)
Also, let us remember, that many who participate in rec.audio.high.end
are not fans of classical music. Hence, why should they hang out
there?
Chris Kantack