Thanks'
Kirk
I haven't tried these specific cables, though I'm planning something
similar made of quarter inch wide copper tape spaced in a similar
manner (and also in a Goertz construction for speaker cables using 3-M
tape... not the packing stuff mentioned in the article, though I use
that too, but the thicker polyethylene stuff used to hold plastic
heat-shrink sheeting over storm windows). You might also try the
UBYTE-1 and X-cables Thorsten Loche wrote about on TNT audio's site
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/tweaks.html I'm currently using
several of these with excellent results (though my spacing is more like
2.5 cm rather than 1.5 or 3.0). Also made a couple of sets of these
out of a combination of wirewrap and 8x36ga Litz wire with each
conductor braided (sort of a Kimber/Canare cross-breed), though I found
that the braiding doesn't really serve any function, if all the
conductors are at the same potential, other than to make it difficult to
thread through the plug shells... all in all, either the wire-wrap, Litz
or combo sounds best if each strand in the hot and ground bundle is kept
parallel and adjacent to it's neighbor and not allowed to cross or twist
as you braid the bundles along the length of the foam core. Picked up
some heavy-wall polyethylene tube form the local pet shop to try using
as a core since playing vivisection on coax isn't exactly fun and I'm
not strong enough to pull the center conductor out of more than a 2ft
length of the coax I happen to have laying about. The tube is 1/4" OD
so it is fatter than my usual coax core and will require different plugs
(usually use the Deltron DGS Pro Audio plugs from Mouser electronics as
they seem well built and only cost about $4.50 in ten lots), but I
figure the increased size will lower the capacitance of the overall
cable somewhat.
If you don't mind really fat and heavy interconnects (why don't they
call them "patch cords" anymore or is this one of those politically
correct terminology things like calling garbage collectors "Sanitary
Engineers"?), you might try replacing the center conductor of some RG-8U
with a single strand of wire-wrap or 36ga magnet wire etc. If you don't
want to go to the trouble, the mil. spec. silver-plate/teflon RG-214 50
ohm coax would make good interconnect (I haven't tried it since all I
could find was 100 foot rolls at Allied for about six hundred bucks, but
Thorsten recently got some cut lenths from Maplin and tried it ... said
it was as good as anything out there, and better than the Belden 89259
everybody on RAO was raving about a while back, though it's about 11mm
OD and so heavy that you almost need locking RCA plugs to fit it and
keep it's own weight from pulling the plugs out of the sockets... now
here's a good excuse for replacing your RCA connectors with SMA or BNC
<g>). Someone out there might also want to try Belden 89182 (foam
teflon dielectric twisted-pair computer cable with a nice low 8.8pF/foot
capacitance). Seems like it ought to make nice cable, though I haven't
had the money to try it yet and have been too lazy to call Belden and
ask for a sample (Sorry Steve <g>). I've had some good luck with
Belden 83317. Isn't quite as good as the X cables but seems to work
quite well for less critical sources like cassette, MD and the like.
It's 26 ga silverplate stranded twisted pair with teflon insulation
inside a silver plate braid shield with a teflon tape jacket and only
runs about a buck a foot. The nice thing about it is that it's only
about the size of a TootsieRoll pop stick so it makes a very light, thin
and exceedingly flexible cable and helps reduce the wire clutter since
you can run two lengths down a heatshrink tube to form a stereo pair
that is thinner than most single mono interconnects. Have loaned a 1
meter set of these to several people and they all have reported that it
is more detailed than what they had been using (mostly some of Monster's
better cables and Radio Shack Gold AV cables). Belden 82723 or 88723
(individually shielded 22ga twisted pair) also makes good sonically
transparent and very light headphone extension cable, though it
doesn't exactly look very stunning <g>
Don't know how any of this compares to your "designer" cables since I
can't afford any of them anyway, but my suggestion would be to try any
and all of this DIY stuff... you might wind up laughing, all the way to
the bank. Besides, then you can tell me how it compares to the fancy
stuff <GGG>
--
phu...@omnilinx.net
http://omnilinx.net/~phughes
> Kirk wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> > I don't know if you talked about this before or not I'm new here.
> > Check out www.soundstage.com Greg Weaver's column
> > "Synergizing" Have any of you made these cables? How do they
> > compare to PBJ and other cables in this price range?
> >
> > Thanks'
> > Kirk
>
> I haven't tried these specific cables, though I'm planning something
> similar made of quarter inch wide copper tape spaced in a similar
> manner (and also in a Goertz construction for speaker cables using 3-M
> tape... not the packing stuff mentioned in the article, though I use
> that too, but the thicker polyethylene stuff used to hold plastic
> heat-shrink sheeting over storm windows). You might also try the
> UBYTE-1 and X-cables Thorsten Loche wrote about on TNT audio's site
> http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/tweaks.html I'm currently using
> several of these with excellent results (though my spacing is more like
> 2.5 cm rather than 1.5 or 3.0).
I would ike to try the X-cable interconnect and the speaker wire. The
problem is I have not been able to find an appropriate equivalent in
North America to the "low loss sat cable" that Thorsten specifies and
is availlable from Maplin. I have been checking Belden and many other
places on the internet and can't seem to find anything with the copper
foil shield that is required for the speaker cables. Belden has
special proprietary foils that don't seem to be what is required for
this project. Do you have any idea where to get a suitable if not
identical cable in North America. I was not completely clear on
whether Maplin would actually ship worldwide and whether this was an
economic way of getting it anyways. I am in Canada and the specified
Canadian Maplin rep seems to only carry their various kits and no
components whatsoever. Couldn't seem to find anything from Newark,
Digi-Key
and the like. Any pointers.
John
--
The opinions expressed here are the John Soucie
opinions of the author and in no way sou...@nortel.ca
reflect the opinions of Northern
Telecom.
> I don't know if you talked about this before or not I'm new here.
> Check out www.soundstage.com Greg Weaver's column
> "Synergizing" Have any of you made these cables? How do they
> compare to PBJ and other cables in this price range?
Well, I have spend prodigous of Money and time (and also of Beldens
Money and Time - ThanX to Steve Lampen) in researching Cables.
As a result I have a collection of Cables at home second probably
only to the one Jon M. Risch must have around.
One of them (thanX to my Friend Jon Finlayson from the London Live
DIY Circle who donated the Silver-Wire and the PTFE Sleeving) are the
Signal Tapes.
I have tried both the plain Belden 89259 Jon M. Risch recommends plus
the suggested twisted pair Cable using two Conductors + Inner
Insulation from Belden 1506A with additional Air-Core Insulation.
I have several quite good commercial Cables at Home (DNM, Audion
Silver, Nordost, Audioquest Quartz) and have been able to borrow
Kimber and Cardas (in both Cases the Entry Level Stuff).
My "real world" Reference is Radioshack "Goldpatch".
First of all in both Blind and sighted Tests all these Cables do
sound different, regardless of what any of the "nothing ever sounds
different" Fraction claims.
I shall below rank the DIY-Cables I have tried in Groups of
Performance. I would like to add that in many Cases the most neutral
Cables might not be the best match....
My personal References (still Nameless):
=======================================
Cable 1:
Airspaced Polyethylen Insulation with a solid enameled copper Center
Conductor of 0.05mm Diameter and a 0.05mm thickness Copperfoil in a
Coaxial Arrangement with WBT Style locking RCA's.
Capacitance is about 20pF/m and the Ground-loop Resistance is
significantly below 0.05Ohm.
This Cable has a natural tonal Balance and excellent Spatial
Resolution, however some listeners feel that it slighly constricts
Dynamics.
Cable 2:
RG-214/U with WBT-Style locking Plugs. This Cable is a version of the
RG-213 or URM-67 Coax. It uses 7 X 0.75mm Solid Silverplated Copper
as Inner Conductor and a Double Braid of Silverplated Copper with
Solid Polyethylen Insulation.
The nominal characteristic Impedance is 50 Ohm and Capacitance about
100pF/m. Resistance is below anything I can measure.
This Cable is SLIGHTLY darker sounding than the Thinwire + Foil with
similar Spatial Resolution and Detail but without the slight
constrictions in Dynamic.
Other exceptionally good Cables:
================================
XLO-Style:
These Cables are essentially DIY Versions of XLO's Interconnects and
are cheap to make but labour intensive. These Cables are described in
one of my Articles in the TNT-Audio Web-Zine (www.tnt-audio.com -
look under tweakings).
Resistance is low and the Capacitance (depending on construction) can
be anywhere between 70-200pF/m.
These Cables sound ever so slightly over-bright in my system, but in
a System that slightly lacks "Air" and "Sparkle" in the treble these
Cables are an Ideal Tonic. In a already overly bright system they are
lethal.
UBYTE-I:
Another one of the Cables written about in TNT-Audio, it is a
slightly dark sounding Cable, perfect for CD based systems.
Capacitance is about 50pF/m, Resistance is very low.
While lacking the ultimate in Detail and Soundstaging, I find that
with CD I cannot tell that something is missing (I can with LP).
However this Cable seems to take off some of the "edginess" that
seems to be in evidence with almost any CD-Player I ever had the
chance to hear.
Jon M. Risch Style twisted Solid Pair:
This Cable I made up as curiosity. It is made from two Cores +
Insulation of Belden 1506A Cable interwoven with Air-Spaced
Polyethylen Insulation from "low- loss Satellite Cable". This is then
twisted as tightly as possible.
The Capacitance is about 30pF/m, resistance again is very low.
This Cable is similar in Character to the UBYTE-I but lacks the
slight darkening of the Sound evident with the UBYTE-I. This Cable is
fairly neutral but in the end end lacks the resolution and
Soundstaging abilities (depth as much as lateral spread) of the best.
Cables with serious Defects:
============================
Silver Signal Tape:
This is Greg Weavers Cable. Sorry Greg, Maybe my four nines Silver is
no good or my Teflon Sleeving the wrong Brand. This Cable makes the
XLO-Style Cables seem positively laid back. It is fiercely bright and
aggressive, leading almost immediatly to Listener Fatigue....
At the same Time a commercial Cable of similar construction (Review
forthcomming in TNT-Audio) but with Copper-Conductors sounds Very
Good. Indeed the commercial Cable would rate as one of the
exceptional ones....
Kimber PJB Style Braided Wirewrap:
Yuck. Even Brighter and more Aggressive. Good if your system sounds
as if someone has turned the Treble all the Way down.
Belden 89259:
This Cable sounds only little Different from Radio-Shack Goldpatch.
It does ffer somewhat more Detail but has same sort of "gray veil"
over the music, poor Soundstaging and a somewhat harsh upper
Midrange. Cymbals lack Sparkle.
Still it actually does sound less wrong than the Silver Signal Tape
and the braided Wirewrap.
I shall not comment here any further on the commercial offerings I'm
reviewing at the Moment, however, it might be sufficient to say that
either of my "Reference Cables" significantly outperforms any of them
if LP is used.
The System in which these Cables where auditioned includes:
A Oracle Delphi Turntable with a Sumiko Arm (rewired with 3 X 44
Gauge Tefloncoated silverplated Copper thanX to Kalman Rubinson from
Stereophile) and a Goldring Elite Moving Coil Cartridge.
A DIY Valve Preamp
(http://www.vt52.com/diy/loesch/loesch.html)
A DIY Kit Single-Ended Valve Poweramp
(http://www.hi-fidelity.co.uk/edison/)
A Pair of DIY Speakers modeled on the Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy
and as supporting Cast a Marantz CD-67 SE CD-Player with a few
Modifications as well as various Solid State Amplifiers, a VCR and so
on....
The Music played included pretty much anything from Hardrock to
Classic with acoustic Jazz and "Lyric Rock" making up the bulk.
Kind regards Thorsten.
======================================
e-mail:
Thor...@tnt-audio.com
Visit TNT-Audio on the Web - the only advertising
free audio web-zine.
http://www.tnt-audio.com
======================================
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> I would ike to try the X-cable interconnect and the speaker wire. The
> problem is I have not been able to find an appropriate equivalent in
> North America to the "low loss sat cable" that Thorsten specifies and
> is availlable from Maplin.
For the X-Cables Core you can use any form of Polyethylen or Teflon Tubing in
about 4-5mm Outer Diameter....
> I have been checking Belden and many other places on the internet
> and can't seem to find anything with the copper foil shield that
> is required for the speaker cables.
Indeed. One option would be to buy Belden 1506A, strip the whole shield (they
use Aluminum Foil - yuck) off and ten use the 3m Coppertape in 19mm to wrap
the stuff into the Copper-Foil.
A lot more labour intensive, but you don't have to order from Maplin.
However, for all it is worth, Maplin is a HUGE operation and as long as the
Warehouse has Stock (they tell you if not) I allways had my orders with 48
Hours....
The States will obviously have to wait a bit longer, but still....
> I was not completely clear on whether Maplin would actually ship
> worldwide and whether this was an economic way of getting it anyways.
Maplin ship worldwide. Read here:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/overseas/oseasorders.htm
http://www.maplin.co.uk/overseas/oseasterms.htm
However you could try Quality Kit's in Canada....
However it seems you've been there already....
Later Thorsten
Matt Churches
Kirk wrote:
> Hi All,
> I don't know if you talked about this before or not I'm new here.
> Check out www.soundstage.com Greg Weaver's column
> "Synergizing" Have any of you made these cables? How do they
> compare to PBJ and other cables in this price range?
>
> Thanks'
> Kirk
TNT (Thorsten) Ubyte I; simple to make, not neutral, highs fall off
quite fast, but suited for cheaper stereo sets and its still better
than my Monster CD I ($60) Beware though that the foil tears up very
easily ! (I just leave the stranded copper shield with the
foil together)
TNT (Thorsten) Ubyte X3.0 and X1.5; very hard to make, very neutral,
highs are crystal clear, lacks some bass though.
Pope/Belden H100 (9 mm, 50 ohms super low loss coax, solid copper
core conductor of 2.5mm!, semi-transparent teflon tube with teflon
wire twisted around copper conductor to create some air spacing,
copper foil and stranded copper shield. Never heard basses as low as
with this cable (except for the following cables)!
Pope/Belden H1000 (11 mm, 50 ohms super low loss coax, solid copper
core conductor of 2.6mm!, white teflon tube, copper foil and stranded
copper shield. Lowest basses ever !
Pope/Belden H100 twisted the teflon tubes with solid conductors
together. (I actually also did this with the CT100 cable Thorsten is
using). Basses as low as they can get and very very real (loose or
however you describe it). Highs very clear. Just everything is
right. This is the ultimate for me so far.
Just to make some things clear : I do not own a record player so
results might be different when playing records. I use a AMC3030CVT,
Magnepans 1.5se (replaced MKP in filter with tin-foils), OCOS speaker
cable (bi-wired) and a Marantz CD72SE with about all mods Thorsten
described on the TNT site (thanks a lot Thorsten, really got me into
electronics and DIY again).
The coax H100 is the preffered cable for three friends I borrowed it
to. (The H1000 and twisted H100 I just made this weekend so they did
not have a chance to listen to them). They quickly replaced their
+$250 cables with the H100.
Pope is a dutch company taken over by Belden. I do not know if it's
available abroad. Interested people should contact me and we might
workout something.
Prices in Holland :
CT100 : $1 per meter when ordered in a 100m spool
H100 : $3.15 per meter (30% off when ordering a spool of 100m)
H1000 : $3.20 per meter (30% off when ordering a spool of 100m)
My DIY interlinks has finished now, my next project will be DIY
speaker cable. First I will make the TNT UBYTE speaker cable with the
leftovers of the CT100 coax (together with a friend we bought a
spool). I will use the standed shield since my experiences with the
foil are not very good; ever tried removing the teflon mummy tape or
heat shrink to put several "bandages" on the foil ;-( Probably will
use H100 or H1000 after that (got very high expectations).
Rudolf.
>If you don't
>want to go to the trouble, the mil. spec. silver-plate/teflon RG-214 50
>ohm coax would make good interconnect (I haven't tried it since all I
>could find was 100 foot rolls at Allied for about six hundred bucks, but
>Thorsten recently got some cut lenths from Maplin and tried it ... said
>it was as good as anything out there, and better than the Belden 89259
>everybody on RAO was raving about a while back, though it's about 11mm
>OD and so heavy that you almost need locking RCA plugs to fit it and
>keep it's own weight from pulling the plugs out of the sockets... now
>here's a good excuse for replacing your RCA connectors with SMA or BNC
><g>).
That Belden RG-214 is Part # 8268. 50 ohm and silver coated everything. 10.8mm
(.425") HUGE. If you want a garden hose, here it is!
> Someone out there might also want to try Belden 89182 (foam
>teflon dielectric twisted-pair computer cable with a nice low 8.8pF/foot
>capacitance). Seems like it ought to make nice cable, though I haven't
>had the money to try it yet and have been too lazy to call Belden and
>ask for a sample (Sorry Steve <g>).
I would only use this for balanced analog. It's 150 ohms which is a bit off for
balanced 110 ohm digital. Would work in a short lengths, but real digital
cables are true 110 ohms, and 12.5 pF/ft, not too shabby!!
I've had some good luck with
>Belden 83317. Isn't quite as good as the X cables but seems to work
>quite well for less critical sources like cassette, MD and the like.
>It's 26 ga silverplate stranded twisted pair with teflon insulation
>inside a silver plate braid shield with a teflon tape jacket and only
>runs about a buck a foot. The nice thing about it is that it's only
>about the size of a TootsieRoll pop stick so it makes a very light, thin
>and exceedingly flexible cable and helps reduce the wire clutter since
>you can run two lengths down a heatshrink tube to form a stereo pair
>that is thinner than most single mono interconnects. Have loaned a 1
>meter set of these to several people and they all have reported that it
>is more detailed than what they had been using (mostly some of Monster's
>better cables and Radio Shack Gold AV cables).
This cable is not even a twisted pair, it's just two conductors with a shield.
(They're in the multi conductor section of the catalog, not even in the paired
cable section.) I wouldn't trust them to be very well balanced in a
balanced-line set-up, so their noise rejection would only be average. Any
digital cable (1800F, 1800A, 1801A, 9180) should be able to beat it hands
down...at least in measured lab performance.
Belden 82723 or 88723
>(individually shielded 22ga twisted pair) also makes good sonically
>transparent and very light headphone extension cable, though it
>doesn't exactly look very stunning <g>
Now, this is AT LEAST a twisted pair (in this case two twisted pairs). The
part numbers are both Teflon inside. However, if you're going to use them for
stereo, theer is a little problem. They are really RS-232 machine control
cable so they only have one drain wire for both pairs. You'll have to create a
jumper from one connector to the other to get two grounds. I would suggest
1802A, which is two-pair digital audio cable. It's in a figure-eight with a
jacket on each pair. Much easier to connectorize, true 110 ohm impedance for
digital, and 12.5 pF/ft for super analog performance too. (And, of course, a
drain wire in each pair!)
For those of you who are NOT lazy, you can get a free short sample of any of
these cables from 1-800-BELDEN-1.
Steve Lampen
Technology Development Manager
Belden Wire & Cable Co.
Richmond, Indiana
www.belden.com
I've given some thought to putting the Apature component line on our
site (I use Apature interconnects myself) but I have a big fear of
returns and/or repairs from customers without the experience to strip
and terminate cable properly. I think it would stand a good chance
of losing money in mail order. I think your local audio dealer
should be able to provide you with the components, though. I know
the audio dealers in my area will do it. I buy my Apature that
way. If the customer is unable to get the job done, they can take
things back to the dealer and get the cables fixed by paying the
termination fee. Good listening.
Fred
AudioNow!
http://www.audionow.com
Andrea wrote in message <70b88e$96n$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...