Asbestos in Vintage Speakers (AR 2AX)
zibbit
(maybe others). Does anyone know when AR used fiberglass that may have
contained asbestos and what circa speakers might contain asbestos i.e. is
there any reference that you know of that indicates which AR model numbers
might contain asbestos and the year of manufacture?
Any information you might have on the use of materials containing asbestos
in vintage speakers would be on interest to me.
erich
Fiberglass does not contain asbestos, the two materials are completely
different. In the US bans of asbestos started going into effect
around 1973. Speakers made prior to that date could potentially contain
asbestos.
This would only be a concern if you plan to open up the speaker and work
on it. If left undisturbed and in a sealed box (AR speakers were acoustic
suspension) it is not likely that the asbestos would be a hazard. It is
when the asbestos becomes airborne that is becomes a problem.
west
news:eq513...@news5.newsguy.com...
audio NG. You say they mixed the two very different materials? I am trying
to understand the logic in doing that. In a way I wish you never mentioned
this because now I'm worried.
Cordially,
west
zibbit
I don't know how profound it is, but it appears to be a fairly well known
"issue" among technicians that have worked on AR speakers over the years.
Here's what I have learned so far, the first production models of ARs were
produced in 1958 (AR3) according to various sources . The AR 2AX came
later. The pair that I have are date stamped 1966 on the woofer frame.
According to the previous post, laws were enacted in the USA in 1973 to
regulate the use of asbestos (in general). That suggests that dampening
materials containing asbestos might have been used in AR speakers from 1958
through the1960s. Can't speak for other manufacturers...
My interest in this is that I rebuilt my AR 2AX speakers about 10 years ago
and it would have been nice to know at the time that they (might) have
contained asbestos. I don't recall even reading about this in all my years
of being an audio buff, but apparently service techs are well aware of it
due to experience?.
Comments/corrections ?
Your turn...
Here is an interesting thread I found on this topic...
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-18706.html
Here is a good summary of the history of the AR3 by Steve Hoffman
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=79618
"west" <rest...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:eq8sl...@news3.newsguy.com...
erich
>
> My interest in this is that I rebuilt my AR 2AX speakers about 10 years ago
> and it would have been nice to know at the time that they (might) have
> contained asbestos. I don't recall even reading about this in all my years
> of being an audio buff, but apparently service techs are well aware of it
> due to experience?.
>
> Comments/corrections ?
>
> Your turn...
One thing to keep in mind is that asbestos is much more of a hazard
to a person who smokes than one who doesn't. In fact that is true of
almost all inhalable hazards.
The numbers go something like this:
Nonsmoker not exposed to asbestos: 1
Non smoker exposed to asbestos: 5
Smoker not exposed to asbestos: 10
Smoker exposed to asbestos: range from 50-90 depending on study
Now the people here who are 'exposed' are workers who have handled
asbestos as part of their jobs on a daily basis for some number of years.
I would expect that rebuilding a pair of speakers once would be a pretty
minor exposure with much much lower risk levels. The fact is that in life
almost everyone has had some exposure to asbestos - from brake dust,
potting plants in vermiculite, working in a building that has some old
asbestos insulation yet to be removed, etc.
So I woundn't lose any sleep over it. It's one of those hazards that you
should try to avoid, but a single exposure is very unlikely to cause
problems. The risk is not zero, but then again you might get sucked up
into a tornado tomorrow too.
Arny Krueger
> West,
>
> I don't know how profound it is, but it appears to be a
> fairly well known "issue" among technicians that have
> worked on AR speakers over the years.
>
> Here's what I have learned so far, the first production
> models of ARs were produced in 1958 (AR3) according to
> various sources . The AR 2AX came later. The pair that
> I have are date stamped 1966 on the woofer frame.
> According to the previous post, laws were enacted in the
> USA in 1973 to regulate the use of asbestos (in general).
> That suggests that dampening materials containing
> asbestos might have been used in AR speakers from 1958
> through the1960s. Can't speak for other manufacturers...
I've taken apart a number of AR speakers from the early days (50s and 60s),
and never saw anything that even looked like asbestos in them. The damping
materials were always standard resin-bonded fiberglass. That was typical of
speakers of that era. I can't remember ever seeing asbestos used in a
commercially-built speaker, or even home brew ones.
Peter Wieck
No AR speaker from the 60s through their rape and pillage by
International Jensen contains asbestos in any quantity, shape or form.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Eeyore
Asbestos has never been used in speakers AFAIK.
Fibreglass has no relationship to asbestos whatever. Fibreglass does not contain
asbestos. Learn some basic science please.
Graham
Eeyore
> According to the previous post, laws were enacted in the USA in 1973 to
> regulate the use of asbestos (in general). That suggests that dampening
> materials containing asbestos might have been used in AR speakers from 1958
> through the1960s.
It suggests nothing of the sort.
How on earth did you come to such a bizarre conclusion ?
Graham
zibbit
I actually know quit a bit about science. Don't dissect my words and please
and stick to the spirit of the post.
The spirit of the post is that there are numerous accounts of service
technicians that have encountered asbestos (padding, dampening material,
fiberfill, fiberglass, you name it) in early vintage AR speakers.
Why are you so sure that it is not true? I've heard and read the
assertions...what are the facts?
Some posts have suggested that they have never encountered asbestos
containing materials in an AR speaker that they took apart or rebuilt. Is
there anyone on this newsgroup that has any concrete evidence that they have
seen asbestos containing materials in any speaker (not just AR) that they
have taken apart and how would you know what it was if you saw it?
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eqkq3...@news4.newsguy.com...
Peter Wieck
On Feb 15, 11:42 pm, "zibbit" <danceswwol...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I actually know quit a bit about science.
This is not "science" but take-your-pick minerology and/or basic
chemistry.
> Don't dissect my words and please
> and stick to the spirit of the post.
All we have is your words to use. Choose the word "parse" instead of
"dissect" and I think you are closer to what is happening.
> The spirit of the post is that there are numerous accounts of service
> technicians that have encountered asbestos (padding, dampening material,
> fiberfill, fiberglass, you name it) in early vintage AR speakers.
Where? Point to one please. Point to any one that is anything other th
an wishful anecdote. Please. Even wishful anecdote...
> Why are you so sure that it is not true? I've heard and read the
> assertions...what are the facts?
The "facts" are based on the nature of batting that AR used. Over the
years, they used both natural and synthetic materials based on natural
(grown wool/cotton fibers) and synthetic (various man-made chemical-
based fibers). I am not so sure they even used fiberglas material, as
I have been digging in/around/through AR speakers for now-40 years and
have never seen it to-date.
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/ar/classic/ar-3a/AR-3a_Delrama_Cutaway2.jpg
Shows the natural-fiber batting used in the early versions.
"Asbestos" is not necessarily batting, although some batting may
contain asbestsos, and some *mineral wool* fibers may contain asbestos
if it was in the original material used as the base. Asbestos forms
include chrysotile, crocidolite, amosite, tremolite, actinolite, and
anthophyllite. Chrysotile is what is most commonly seen in
construction and insulation materials. It is strong and durable, but
does not come in 'long-staple' forms and so must be "bound" with other
materials usually cementicious in nature, or woven into cloth with non-
asbestos binding fibers. As batting, it is (was) particularly
unsuitable, costly, difficult to handle and for any of seveal
practical purposes of no use or need in speaker manufacture. AR did
not survive for 30+ years in the business by making stupid and costly
decisions.
Lastly, you are engaged in the fallacy of "proving the negative". I
would suggest (gently) that if you are worried about this issue,
simply avoid AR speakers. From a purely selfish point of view, that
leaves more for the rest of us.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
dpi...@cartchunk.org
> have encountered asbestos (padding, dampening material,
> fiberfill, fiberglass, you name it) in early vintage AR speakers.
Several problems with your assertion:
1. You just equated asbestos with other materials:
"asbestos (padding, dampening material, fiberfill,
fiberglass, you name it)"
Just because "you name it asbestos," doesn't mean that
it is.
2. There are numerous accounts of a lot of things. There
are numerous accounts that expensive wooden pucks
placed at specific points in a room make dramatic
differences in the sound. There are numerous reports
of CDs being improved because someone painted the
edge with a green magic market. There are numerous
reports of this and that.
Where's the evidence to support these "numerous reports?"
Where are, in fact, the "numerous reports" you refer to?
3. Do these "service technicians" know asbestos when they
see it.
4. Acoustically and mechanically, asbestos is a pretty poor
choice for the job an acoustic absorbant needs to perform
in an acoustic suspension speaker system. Given its cost,
difficulty in handling and poor performance, why would a
reasonably knowledgeable company like AR do this?
> Why are you so sure that it is not true? I've heard and
> read the assertions...what are the facts?
The FACTS are that you have made assertions with no
evidence to support them. The FACTS are that there's
no good reason why this might be true.
> Some posts have suggested that they have never
> encountered asbestos containing materials in an
> AR speaker that they took apart or rebuilt. Is there
> anyone on this newsgroup that has any concrete
> evidence that they have seen asbestos containing
> materials in any speaker (not just AR) that they
> have taken apart and how would you know what it
> was if you saw it?
In the thousands of speakers I have taken apart, I
have never once seen any evidence of asbestos.
It has an appearance which is quite distinct and easily
differentiated from materials such as fiberglass wool,
rock wool, acetate fiber, polyester fiber, urethane
and ethylene foams, shredded paper, cotton and
wool fibers, bags of packing peanuts, stretched layers
of cloth, bundles of straws, excelsior and any nimber
of other of contrivances (including nothing at all)
manufacturers have put inside speaker enclosures.
As a professional in the field, I think I am qualified, probably
a lot more so than most "service technicians" at making
these asertions.
Now, these "service technicians" and, by proxy, yourself
are making assertions or at least suggestions to the
contrary. Did any of these technicians, on becoming
suspicious as to the content, do the responsible thing
and take a sample of the material and submit it to a
local HazMat authority for analysis? That's what I
would have done (and have done, in other instances).
Did they?
Who are these "service technicians?" I think it would
behoove then to come forwartd with the evidence. If
they are correct, this represents a SIGNIFICANT
health hazard. What's their motivation for NOT coming
forward? The risk to them is negligible for doing so.
And, if there's ANY evidence for asbestos in speakers,
do you think the laqwyers would have missed it? Good
gracious, the number of ads for law firms pursuing
asbestos liability cases would alone suggest there's
gold in them thar hills.
Having been in this business for well over a quarter of
a century, and having seen the sort of "numerous accounts"
that pass for "fact" in this "industry, I'd bet good money
this is urban legend that has taken on a life of its own.
Eeyore
> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > zibbit wrote:
> >
> >> I have been told and have been reading about asbestos used in AR speakers
> >> (maybe others). Does anyone know when AR used fiberglass that may have
> >> contained asbestos and what circa speakers might contain asbestos i.e. is
> >> there any reference that you know of that indicates which AR model
> >> numbers might contain asbestos and the year of manufacture?
> >>
> >> Any information you might have on the use of materials containing
> >> asbestos in vintage speakers would be on interest to me.
> >
> > Asbestos has never been used in speakers AFAIK.
> >
> > Fibreglass has no relationship to asbestos whatever. Fibreglass does not
> > contain asbestos. Learn some basic science please.
> >
> >Graham
> >
> >Hi Graham,
>
> I actually know quit a bit about science. Don't dissect my words and please
> and stick to the spirit of the post.
I addresses your post directly. No disection needed.
> The spirit of the post is that there are numerous accounts of service
> technicians that have encountered asbestos (padding, dampening material,
> fiberfill, fiberglass, you name it) in early vintage AR speakers.
What numerous accounts are these ?
> Why are you so sure that it is not true? I've heard and read the
> assertions...what are the facts?
It would be a very odd choice of material. Why would they ever do it ? The stuff
turns to 'powder' and would blow out of any ports.
The dangers of asbestos have been known for over 100 years. Again why would
anyone use it ?
I do wonder if rockwool might have been mistakenly thought to be asbestos
though. It's a mineral fibre too.
Graham
gwha...@gmail.com
Asbestos fiber was used in a wide range of materials, such as insulation, flooring, siding, mastics, caulking, fiberboard, cloth, plastics, gaskets, washers, etc. Even though some asbestos containing materials and some types of asbestos fiber are more hazardous than others, all of them are potentially hazardous.
I own a pair of early AR3s, and I would be very surprised if they did not contain some form of asbestos. The black caulking used to seal the woofers is almost certainly Dum-Dum brand, which was widely used and contained asbestos. But the fibers used as a binder in caulking and similar products pose little if any risk. The problem is with loose, dry asbestos, or friable asbestos.
With respect to the AR3's the only real concern would be the loose fiberous packing behind the cabinet. Asbestos packing was commonly used to insulate circuit boxes, and because of its fire-resistant properties and relatively low cost at the time, I would say that there is a pretty good chance that AR and/or other manufacturers would have used an asbestos blend as an insulator/dampener.
Having said that, the only real risk of exposure would come from opening up the speakers. If you are concerned about exposure, I would recommend that you open the cabinets outside or in a garage, and wear appropriate respiratory protection.
Most studies indicate that asbestosis and mesothelioma are caused by prolonged and repeated exposure to asbestos. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to take some precaution when working with any type of fiberous material, whether it is fiberglass, mineral wool, polypropylene batting, or asbestos. Inhaling fibers can cause scarring of the lungs, which, over time, can contribute to respiratory problems.
tl;dr- Closed speakers are safe, but take some precautions when working inside the cabinet.
Peter Wieck
On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 3:50:39 PM UTC-4, George Hardy wrote:
> Late reply, but I thought I would add some facts for reference.
>
> Asbestos fiber was used in a wide range of materials, such as insulation, flooring, siding, mastics, caulking, fiberboard, cloth, plastics, gaskets, washers, etc. Even though some asbestos containing materials and some types of asbestos fiber are more hazardous than others, all of them are potentially hazardous.
> I own a pair of early AR3s, and I would be very surprised if they did not contain some form of asbestos. The black caulking used to seal the woofers is almost certainly Dum-Dum brand, which was widely used and contained asbestos. But the fibers used as a binder in caulking and similar products pose little if any risk. The problem is with loose, dry asbestos, or friable asbestos.
> With respect to the AR3's the only real concern would be the loose fiberous packing behind the cabinet. Asbestos packing was commonly used to insulate circuit boxes, and because of its fire-resistant properties and relatively low cost at the time, I would say that there is a pretty good chance that AR and/or other manufacturers would have used an asbestos blend as an insulator/dampener.
> Having said that, the only real risk of exposure would come from opening up the speakers. If you are concerned about exposure, I would recommend that you open the cabinets outside or in a garage, and wear appropriate respiratory protection.
> Most studies indicate that asbestosis and mesothelioma are caused by prolonged and repeated exposure to asbestos. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to take some precaution when working with any type of fiberous material, whether it is fiberglass, mineral wool, polypropylene batting, or asbestos. Inhaling fibers can cause scarring of the lungs, which, over time, can contribute to respiratory problems.
I had a neighbor who died of Asbestosis at 97, from a single exposure when she was 22. She was a roller-skate telephone operator, and one day they were spraying the backs of the boards with asbestos. A single fiber can kill, whether immediately or over time. Smoking greatly exacerbates the issue, and repeated exposure can also shorten the process. As in the case of my father-in-law who was a maritime engineer and exposed on many occasions from his 20s into his late 40s - and who died at nearly 80 of heart-related issues. No apparent reaction to the asbestos.
> tl;dr- Closed speakers are safe, but take some precautions when working inside the cabinet.
p.s.: AR did not use ACMs and they did not use Fiberglas (or fiberglass). Those who choose to believe otherwise, please eschew AR speakers - it leaves more for the rest of us.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
George Hardy
It sounds like you have some personal knowledge about the materials used in mid-century ARs. If so, please share. It would actually be very helpful.
Scott
> Note the interpolations - and that this goes back to 2007.
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 3:50:39 PM UTC-4, George Hardy wrote:
> > Late reply, but I thought I would add some facts for reference.
>
>
http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/asbestos/general/health-effects.htm
"The idea that 'one fibre will kill' is not supported by scientific evidence as everyone has had some exposure to asbestos fibres. The burden of asbestos fibres in the lungs, resulting from typical background exposure, appears to be tolerated by most people. Post-mortem studies of people aged between 60 -79 years who had not died from asbestos-related diseases have shown up to one million asbestos fibres per gram of dry lung tissue."
We all have far more than one fiber of asbestos sitting in our lungs right now.
>
[ This is starting to veer off-topic. We can agree that many
materials in electronics and speakers can be hazardous and
warrant appropriate caution. Discussion of such is on-topic,
but should be related back to audio. --dsr ]
power...@operations.com
>I would recommend that you open the cabinets outside or in a garage, and wear
>appropriate respiratory protection.
garage unopened, they WILL KILL YOU!
You MUST dispose of them at an approved disposal site.
I run such a site. All you have to do is package them, and mail them to
me. I will safely dispose of them.