[The ballad of] Ruby Ridge
Tom Betz
>
> What is going on here?
> I can't believe I just heard a song glorifying the right wing
> "militia" hero Randy Weaver.
Like the man said, somebody had to write it.
> What's next? Holocaust deniers and the Aryan Resistance???
Here are Peter Rowan's lyrics. Remember, it's a song
he said he wished he didn't have to write.
*---*
"Ruby Ridge" - Peter Rowan
Tell you a story not long ago
High on a mountain in Idaho,
In Idaho, I was livin' free
Sold a sawed-off shotgun to the deputy
Don't shoot me down, don't shoot me down
Got a wife and kids on Ruby Ridge,
Please don't shoot me down.
They killed my good dog, they killed my boy,
My only son, my pride and joy
They shot my wife dead on the floor
Holdin' our baby there by the door.
Don't shoot me down, don't shoot me down
Got a wife and kids on Ruby Ridge,
Please don't shoot me down.
Don't shoot me down, don't shoot me down
Got a wife and kids on Ruby Ridge,
Please don't shoot me down.
If you take a notion, and you wanna go
Build you a cabin in Idaho
In Idaho, you'll be livin' free
Don't sell no shotgun to no Deputy.
Don't shoot me down, don't shoot me down
Got a wife and kids on Ruby Ridge,
Please don't shoot me down.
Don't shoot me down, don't shoot me down
Got a wife and kids on Ruby Ridge,
Please don't shoot me down.
*---*
Now, go through the list of ballads that were written about Old West heroes.
How many of them were 100% good guys? Damned few.
Peter Rowan's ballad of Ruby Ridge fits right in there.
Where is the glorification in Peter Rowan's lyrics? What happened to
the Weaver family was a human tragedy, the result of a bolluxed
Government operation. Peter Rowan's lyrics paint it as a simple human
tragedy. No more, no less.
Remember, whatever sort of confused (and maybe racist) person he is,
Randy Weaver never killed anyone. His family's suffering was well outside
the range that any rational person could claim to be his desserts.
I applaud Garrison for giving this song a well-deserved forum. We all need
to be reminded from time to time what a runaway, incompetent government
is capable of, if we are to prevent it from repeating its mistakes.
-- Tom Betz ----------- <http://www.pobox.com/~tbetz> ------ (914) 375-1510 --
tb...@pobox.com | Now that the living outnumber the dead, | tb...@panix.com
-----------------+ I am one of many. -- Laurie Anderson +------------------
- The whole world is a beautiful place to play music. -- Jerry Garcia, 1969 -
Greg Hill
alt.libertarian and alt.republican groups--I'll tell you why I reacted so
strongly. I am strict-constructionalist of the Constitution, and a social
moderate. However, no matter how tolerant I may be of other's beliefs,
the hard right is not tolerant of us. I am a straight WASP married woman
with a professional degree, who was in a hard right fundamentalist group
for 15 years. I do not think possession of a sawed-off gun was a capital
offense, either; yet I believe that law officers should not be shot down.
Coming from the deep South, let me say that if the federal government did
not set forth some law here, many of us in the state of Alabama would be
blind, ricketedly, uneducated and starving. We're ahead of Mississippi,
but not by much, in any measure of quality of life. There is something to
be said for a central government.
Tom Betz
>
> Tom, thanks for your balanced comments.
You are welcome.
> Coming from the deep South, let me say that if the federal government did
> not set forth some law here, many of us in the state of Alabama would be
> blind, ricketedly, uneducated and starving. We're ahead of Mississippi,
> but not by much, in any measure of quality of life. There is something to
> be said for a central government.
I have no qualms about having a central government; what bothers me is an
incompetent central government using a bazooka to swat flies.
That's what happened to Randy Weaver.
Brian Sheehan
>Where is the glorification in Peter Rowan's lyrics? What happened to
>the Weaver family was a human tragedy, the result of a bolluxed
>Government operation. Peter Rowan's lyrics paint it as a simple human
>tragedy. No more, no less.
>Remember, whatever sort of confused (and maybe racist) person he is,
>Randy Weaver never killed anyone. His family's suffering was well outside
>the range that any rational person could claim to be his desserts.
>I applaud Garrison for giving this song a well-deserved forum. We all need
>to be reminded from time to time what a runaway, incompetent government
>is capable of, if we are to prevent it from repeating its mistakes.
You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit about
"selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as if he was
wanted for overdue library books. And in any case, he had the opportunity to
have his day in court. It was his decision to pretend he was a comic book
hero.
Having said that, it seems pretty obvious that the government screwed up- but
there are far more egregious cases of law enforcement abuses than this one.
Unfortunately, cases like the elderly black minister in Boston who died when
the local police mistakenly raided his apartment don't make it as country
songs. Wonder why?
catherine yronwode
>I am strict-constructionalist of the Constitution
...me too, insofar as i am stuck with it.
> and a social
> moderate.
...and a thoroughgoing anarchist in the true sense of the word.
>However, no matter how tolerant I may be of other's beliefs,
> the hard right is not tolerant of us.
...nor is the hard left, but they don't usually carry arms.
>I am a straight WASP married woman
...and i am a straight WJ divorced woman
> with a professional degree,
...who was allowed to leave high school early to go to college and dropped out of
college to become a hippie and consequently has not even a GED.
>who was in a hard right fundamentalist group
> for 15 years.
...who lived in rural back-to-the-land, anti-war, anarchist communes for 15
years and was jailed repeatedly for civil disobendience during the civil rights
and Vietnam protest era and also served jail time for growing marijuana.
>I do not think possession of a sawed-off gun was a capital
> offense, either
...me neither!
>; yet I believe that law officers should not be shot down.
...full agrement from me on that score, too.
> Coming from the deep South,
...coming from the West Coast,
>let me say that if the federal government did
> not set forth some law here, many of us in the state of Alabama would be
> blind, ricketedly, uneducated and starving.
...true up here north of the multiplex, too; well, maybe not starving (we've got a
good climate for gardens and orchards), but every time i drive the roads, i think
of the fine things government can do, and every time i pass the local clinic, and
go into those rock-steady WPA post offices with the beautiful murals on the
walls...
>We're ahead of Mississippi,
> but not by much, in any measure of quality of life.
...yeah, well, our school system is not all that sweet, so i've been told, but we all
do have running water and electricity, and some of us even have a sewage
hook-up (not me, though, but some year soon they'll come by and do the deed).
>There is something to
> be said for a central government.
...and i don't mind saying it, either: i'm satisfied with what we've got. It may not
be perfect, but it's pretty darned good.
And for those who call Randy Weaver a "murderer," that's libel. Paranoia
probably fueled his hot-headedness, leading indirectly to the death of his wife,
child, and dog, but he was in the right and the jury so declared it -- he was
*acquitted* of murder and that alone should be enough to put the matter to rest.
catherine yronwode
cyro...@aol.com / yron...@sonic.net
http://www.sonic.net/~yronwode/index.html
alt.lucky.w -- discussions of folkloric amulets and talismans
alt.religion.orisha -- santeria, voodoo, hoodoo, candomble
if your ISP doesn't carry them, ask for them by name!
Tom Betz
>
> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >Remember, whatever sort of confused (and maybe racist) person he is,
> >Randy Weaver never killed anyone. His family's suffering was well outside
> >the range that any rational person could claim to be his desserts.
>
> >I applaud Garrison for giving this song a well-deserved forum. We all need
> >to be reminded from time to time what a runaway, incompetent government
> >is capable of, if we are to prevent it from repeating its mistakes.
>
> You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit about
> "selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as if he was
> wanted for overdue library books. And in any case, he had the opportunity to
> have his day in court.
In fact, when it was all over, he had his day in court. 12 persons and true
declared him "not guilty".
As to the rest of it, rather than rehash the facts, I'll point you at
news:<4gj5rg$f...@globe.indirect.com> and Mr. Hardy's clear elucidation.
> Unfortunately, cases like the elderly black minister in Boston who died when
> the local police mistakenly raided his apartment don't make it as country
> songs. Wonder why?
Because that minister, like so many before him, was a victim of the War On
Drugs. Even Garrison doesn't dare stir >that< pot, or else the PDFA would
shut him down.
Although Bill Buckley's beginning to get into it...
--
---- Tom Betz --------- <http://www.pobox.com/~tbetz> ------ (914) 375-1510 --
tb...@pobox.com | We have tried ignorance for a very long | tb...@panix.com
------------------+ time, and it's time we tried education. +-----------------
-- Computers help us to solve problems we never had before they came along. --
Tom Betz
> As to the rest of it, rather than rehash the facts, I'll point you at
> news:<4gj5rg$f...@globe.indirect.com> and Mr. Hardy's clear elucidation.
So sue me. It should be <news:4gj5rg$f...@globe.indirect.com> - I apologize.
Brian Sheehan
>Brian Sheehan wrote:
>>
>> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >Remember, whatever sort of confused (and maybe racist) person he is,
>> >Randy Weaver never killed anyone. His family's suffering was well outside
>> >the range that any rational person could claim to be his desserts.
>>
>> >I applaud Garrison for giving this song a well-deserved forum. We all need
>> >to be reminded from time to time what a runaway, incompetent government
>> >is capable of, if we are to prevent it from repeating its mistakes.
>>
>> You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit about
>> "selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as if he was
>> wanted for overdue library books. And in any case, he had the opportunity to
>> have his day in court.
>In fact, when it was all over, he had his day in court. 12 persons and true
>declared him "not guilty".
Exactly my point- his wife and son would probably still be around (not to
mention the marshal who was murdered- think Peter will have to write another
song he doesn't want to write about him?) if he hadn't decided to play cowboys
and Indians with the marshals.
>As to the rest of it, rather than rehash the facts, I'll point you at
>news:<4gj5rg$f...@globe.indirect.com> and Mr. Hardy's clear elucidation.
>> Unfortunately, cases like the elderly black minister in Boston who died when
>> the local police mistakenly raided his apartment don't make it as country
>> songs. Wonder why?
>Because that minister, like so many before him, was a victim of the War On
>Drugs.
I suppose- which I guess just goes to show that the right wing has an even
stricter code of political correctness than liberals are said to follow.
--
Brian T. Sheehan
bshe...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~bsheehan
Brian H. Zygo
>Even Garrison doesn't dare stir >that< pot, or else the PDFA would
>shut him down.
What the hell is the PDFA??
And I for one don't appreciate the cross-posting.
Tim Starr
>>the Weaver family was a human tragedy, the result of a bolluxed
>>Government operation. Peter Rowan's lyrics paint it as a simple human
>>tragedy. No more, no less.
>
>>Randy Weaver never killed anyone. His family's suffering was well outside
>>the range that any rational person could claim to be his desserts.
>
>>I applaud Garrison for giving this song a well-deserved forum. We all need
>>to be reminded from time to time what a runaway, incompetent government
>>is capable of, if we are to prevent it from repeating its mistakes.
>
>You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit about
>"selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as if he was
>wanted for overdue library books. And in any case, he had the opportunity to
>hero.
1) The Federales coerced a criminal into entrapping Weaver into selling the
sawed-off shotgun. Weaver never sold anything to any deputy. The criminal
who entrapped him testified at Weaver's trial - as a witness for the
prosecution - that Weaver was "reluctant" to sell them. The criminal also
specified that they be sawed-off, showing Weaver how short he wanted them.
2) Selling sawed-off shotguns is a MISDEMEANOR, not a felony. The only reason
why the Federales went after Weaver is that he refused to spy on the Aryan
Nations for them when they threatened to prosecute him if he didn't. So, they
made up a bogus criminal record for him & used these lies to get the Federal
prosecutor to go after him.
Prostitution is also a misdemeanor. Does anyone think it would be a good
idea to send death squads after prostitutes, too?
3) Weaver did have his day in court, in which he was cleared of all charges
except failure to appear in court as ordered. However, he'd been threatened
by the Federales with the confiscation of his family's home if he didn't go
along with them by spying on Aryan Nations for them. So, he chose to hole up
rather than to risk going to jail while his family would be rendered homeless
by the Federales. In retrospect, they'd all be better off if he'd gone to
court, but unfortunately this 20-20 hindsight wasn't available at the time.
4) Weaver has never pretended to be either a hero or a martyr. Even so, the
hanging judge who presided over his trial said at the end that Weaver was
basically a good person who'd suffered enough.
5) While Weaver has had his day in court on charges of murdering Federales,
those who conspired to deprive him of his rights & kill his dog, his son, &
his wife have never had the opportunity to do so. Despite the fact that
there's a strong prima facie case of murder, conspiracy to commit murder, &
obstruction of justice to be made against the Federales.
The government paid $3.1 million to settle Weaver's wrongful death suit out
of court in order to avoid the bad publicity the trial would've brought, as
well as to escape having to formally admit its guilt. Lemme ask you this:
if your husband or wife & your son were murdered by Federal law-enforcement
agents, would $3.1 million dollars be enough to pay for their lives? If it
came out of the pockets of the taxpayers, & not the scumbags who did it?
>Having said that, it seems pretty obvious that the government screwed up- but
>there are far more egregious cases of law enforcement abuses than this one.
Yes there are. Waco, for instance.
>Unfortunately, cases like the elderly black minister in Boston who died when
>the local police mistakenly raided his apartment don't make it as country
>songs. Wonder why?
I don't know, but this is tragic, too.
Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! Think Universally, Act Selfishly
Assistant Editor: Freedom Network News, the newsletter of ISIL,
The International Society for Individual Liberty,
1800 Market St., San Francisco, CA 94102
(415) 864-0952; FAX: (415) 864-7506; is...@isil.org
http://www.isil.org/
Liberty is the Best Policy - tims...@netcom.com
Brian H. Zygo
>
>In article <Dn7Ax...@world.std.com>,
>Brian Sheehan <bshe...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>Having said that, it seems pretty obvious that the government screwed up- but
>>there are far more egregious cases of law enforcement abuses than this one.
>Yes there are. Waco, for instance.
I have to disagree, I lived ten miles from the Davidian stronghold. Mr.
Koresh was a nutcase waiting to explode, as well as a child molestor.
Maybe the govt didn't go about it perfectly, but if you expect perfection
then you'll be disapointed all your life.
If you were a law enforcement officer, and you were going to arrest a
man who thought he was Jesus who had an arsenal that could pierce APCs,
and who had suicidal/homicidal views on the end of the world, would
you seriously want to just walk up to his door, knock and hand him a
warrent?
I apologize to all the regular raw posters, but I really get annoyed
by people who point to Koresh as some Martyr, the man molested young
girls, he was mentally off, he wasn't a martyr.
Brian Sheehan
>In article <Dn7Ax...@world.std.com>,
>Brian Sheehan <bshe...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>
>>You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit about
>>"selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as if he was
>>wanted for overdue library books. And in any case, he had the opportunity to
>>have his day in court. It was his decision to pretend he was a comic book
>>hero.
>1) The Federales coerced a criminal into entrapping Weaver into selling the
>sawed-off shotgun. Weaver never sold anything to any deputy. The criminal
>who entrapped him testified at Weaver's trial - as a witness for the
>prosecution - that Weaver was "reluctant" to sell them. The criminal also
>specified that they be sawed-off, showing Weaver how short he wanted them.
>2) Selling sawed-off shotguns is a MISDEMEANOR, not a felony. The only reason
>why the Federales went after Weaver is that he refused to spy on the Aryan
>Nations for them when they threatened to prosecute him if he didn't. So, they
>made up a bogus criminal record for him & used these lies to get the Federal
>prosecutor to go after him.
>Prostitution is also a misdemeanor. Does anyone think it would be a good
>idea to send death squads after prostitutes, too?
Gee Tim- I don't recall saying it was a "good idea" to send death squads after
anybody. Now I may not be quite up to date on modern police procedures, but I
suspect most cops are armed when they arrest prostitutes (or scofflaws, or any
other misdemeanor perpetrator you can think of). Doesn't make them a death
squad, doesn't give you the right to shoot them, either.
>3) Weaver did have his day in court, in which he was cleared of all charges
>except failure to appear in court as ordered. However, he'd been threatened
>by the Federales with the confiscation of his family's home if he didn't go
>along with them by spying on Aryan Nations for them. So, he chose to hole up
>rather than to risk going to jail while his family would be rendered homeless
>by the Federales. In retrospect, they'd all be better off if he'd gone to
>court, but unfortunately this 20-20 hindsight wasn't available at the time.
Sure it was- are you saying Weaver was too dumb to know what "you're under
arrest" means? As I said elsewhere, he decided he was living in a comic book,
and found out the hard way that he wasn't.
>>Having said that, it seems pretty obvious that the government screwed up- but
>>there are far more egregious cases of law enforcement abuses than this one.
>Yes there are. Waco, for instance.
Koresh was a cop!?
>>Unfortunately, cases like the elderly black minister in Boston who died when
>>the local police mistakenly raided his apartment don't make it as country
>>songs. Wonder why?
>I don't know
No, I didn't think so.
I have to confess that as someone who has no trouble with the label "liberal",
I get the biggest kick out of the law and order, "support your local police"
types who suddenly become born again civil rights advocates when some right
wing gun nut gets the kind of treatment that's regularly handed out to drug
dealers and other unsavory types.
OK- I'm off my soapbox- I'll go back to being a genuine Shy Person again now.
P.S.
I really think any followups to this thread should be by e-mail, or else moved
to another group. We seem to have left the PHC part of the discussion behind.
Tom Betz
>
> In article <312DEF...@pobox.com>, Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> says:
>
> >Even Garrison doesn't dare stir >that< pot, or else the PDFA would
> >shut him down.
>
> What the hell is the PDFA??
Partnership (formerly Parents) for a Drug-Free America. Propaganda
coalition between drug warriors and advertising agencies, among others.
The people who produced such winners as "This is your brain in drugs -
any questions?" and the notorious "flat-line EEG" PSAs.
> And I for one don't appreciate the cross-posting.
I, for one, have found it informative. I always appreciate informed
opinion as a bulwark against ignorant opinion. You have something against it?
Ed Foster
(Brian H. Zygo) wrote:
> In article <312DEF...@pobox.com>, Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> says:
>
>
> >Even Garrison doesn't dare stir >that< pot, or else the PDFA would
> >shut him down.
>
> What the hell is the PDFA??
>
> And I for one don't appreciate the cross-posting.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And what was wrong with the cross-posting? It was only to two other
groups. I've seen much worse.
--
Ed Foster
erfo...@netcom.com
Brian Sheehan
>Brian H. Zygo wrote:
>> And I for one don't appreciate the cross-posting.
>I, for one, have found it informative. I always appreciate informed
>opinion as a bulwark against ignorant opinion. You have something against it?
I for one, have a problem with bad manners. You can redirect followups to
alt.wacko.gun-nuts if you like, but it's considered polite to mention that in
your posting.
Anonymous
bshe...@world.std.com wrote to All:
b> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> Where is the glorification in Peter Rowan's lyrics? What happened to
>> the Weaver family was a human tragedy, the result of a bolluxed
>> Government operation.
b> You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit
b> about "selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as
b> if he was wanted for overdue library books.
Wrong: He was _entrapped_ by a BATF asset for purposes of _blackmail_.
b> And in any case, he had
b> the opportunity to have his day in court.
Yes, a month _before_ the "erroneous" date on his summons.
Really, if you see fit to make a lot of judgmental comments on the
subject, you ought to have some faint notion of the facts. It's not as
though they're secret anymore.
Tom Betz
>
> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >Brian H. Zygo wrote:
>
> >> And I for one don't appreciate the cross-posting.
>
> >I, for one, have found it informative. I always appreciate informed
> >opinion as a bulwark against ignorant opinion. You have something against it?
>
> I for one, have a problem with bad manners.
I'm sorry, I sometimes forget that some people are incapable of reading
article headers. Are you one of them?
> You can redirect followups to
> alt.wacko.gun-nuts if you like, but it's considered polite to mention that in
> your posting.
Please cite a case where I or anyone else involved in this discussion brought in
anything like a "wacko gun nuts" newsgroup.
Kathleen Mulhern
nob...@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
> b> You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit
> b> about "selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as
> b> if he was wanted for overdue library books.
>
>Wrong: He was _entrapped_ by a BATF asset for purposes of _blackmail_.
More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
want to sell them any guns. After he finally gave in and sold them the
guns to get them off his back, he drove home and saw a car broken down on
the side of the road. He stopped to help, and it turned out to be a trap.
He was arrested by the feds. I don't agree with Randy Weaver or his
family's politics, but they were most assuredly the victims from the very
start in this battle. The more you know the more horrifying it becomes.
No amount of money can compinsate for the loss of his wife and son.
----
--kath...@teleport.com
"I have no respect for a man who can
only think of one way to spell a word."
-Andrew Jackson
Brian H. Zygo
>In article <4gltbn$h...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, b.z...@mail.utexas.edu
>(Brian H. Zygo) wrote:
>> In article <312DEF...@pobox.com>, Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> says:
>> And I for one don't appreciate the cross-posting.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>And what was wrong with the cross-posting? It was only to two other
>groups. I've seen much worse.
In general, I have nothing wrong with cross-posting, but when it comes
to r.a.w., maybe I view cross-posting here in the same manner someone
in Lake Wobegon would view a person driving into town in a Toyota.
Brian Z.
You just might be a Montanan if you know 'the Bob' is not a haircut or
Newhart
Wolf
#In article <1996022607...@utopia.hacktic.nl>,
# nob...@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
#> b> You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit
#> b> about "selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as
#> b> if he was wanted for overdue library books.
#>
#>Wrong: He was _entrapped_ by a BATF asset for purposes of _blackmail_.
#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
#heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
#badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
#want to sell them any guns. After he finally gave in and sold them the
#guns to get them off his back, he drove home and saw a car broken down on
#the side of the road. He stopped to help, and it turned out to be a trap.
#He was arrested by the feds. I don't agree with Randy Weaver or his
#family's politics, but they were most assuredly the victims from the very
#start in this battle. The more you know the more horrifying it becomes.
#No amount of money can compinsate for the loss of his wife and son.
But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
a right wing paramilitary nut.
Nice world, ain't it?
James
#----
#--kath...@teleport.com
#"I have no respect for a man who can
#only think of one way to spell a word."
# -Andrew Jackson
Brian Sheehan
>Brian Sheehan wrote:
>>
>> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Brian H. Zygo wrote:
>>
>> >> And I for one don't appreciate the cross-posting.
>>
>> >I, for one, have found it informative. I always appreciate informed
>> >opinion as a bulwark against ignorant opinion. You have something against it?
>>
>> I for one, have a problem with bad manners.
>I'm sorry, I sometimes forget that some people are incapable of reading
>article headers. Are you one of them?
You apparently don't understand the point here. It is generally
considered polite to mention the fact that you are redirecting
followups to another newsgroup. No, it's not a legal requirement, it's
just common courtesy. Judging by the tone of your response, however, I
take it that's not high on your list of priorities.
>> You can redirect followups to
>> alt.wacko.gun-nuts if you like, but it's considered polite to mention that in
>> your posting.
>Please cite a case where I or anyone else involved in this discussion brought in
>anything like a "wacko gun nuts" newsgroup.
Sorry, Tom, I thought you'd be able to detect sarcasm, but I guess
not. See, what I was saying was "I don't care WHO you redirect
followups to, just be polite and mention it in your post."
Understand that?
Kathleen Mulhern
k...@cv.hp.com (Keith Marchington) wrote:
>: But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way
>: they harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the
>: shotgun, you'll be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical
>: gun goon, and c) a right wing paramilitary nut.
>
>
> You left out "Koresh worshipper."
Yes, I just may. But I will be labeled those things by people who have
only heard one side of the story. I still want to know why the horrors of
what happened to the Weaver family was not covered on the news. Again, I
could not be more in opposition of the political ideologies held by Randy
Weaver and his family. But they removed themselves voluntarily from
elements they didn't like and were quiet, law abiding citizens, I'll be it
with highly objectional views. I'd like to think we live in a country
where a person can hold their beliefs freely and practice their first
amendment rights. Apparently I was wrong.
----
--kath...@teleport.com
"I have no respect for a man who can
only think of one way to spell a word."
-Andrew Jackson
Kathleen Mulhern
>Weaver's son heard the dog bark. Thought it was a deer or other type of
>game. Took his gun ran out of the house to his death. How is it
>justified for thugs to hang around in the woods spying. The thugs forced
>all of it. Weaver stood on his porch. His wife walk out behind him with a
>child in her arms. Was he going to give up? Is that why his wife walked
>out with a baby in her arms. These honest federal thugs would not shoot
>now would they?
The Feds said they couldn't see Mrs. Weaver... they thought she was
holding a gun or something. They said that because of the screen and the
distance they were standing from the front door, they weren't sure at whom
they were shooting. It was BULLSHIT. In court, attorneys for Mr. Weaver
actually brought in the front door and forced the fed who shot Mrs. Weaver
to stand at the exact distance he was when he shot her. Then another man
stood behind the door, in the exact position Mrs. Weaver was standing.
Not only could the fed see who it was, he could tell what color eyes the
man behind the door had!! They knew EXACTLY what they were doing. The
feds didn't go up and knock on the door, they didn't call the house, they
didn't anounce their presence at all. They hid in the trees like cowards,
and when the dog saw movement and started barking, they shot the dog like
cowards. They (the feds) INVITED a confrontation and killed 3 people: son
of R. Weaver, his wife and a fed in the process.
Keith Marchington
: In <4gt8h5$d...@maureen.teleport.com> kath...@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) writes:
: #More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
: #heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
: #badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
: #want to sell them any guns. After he finally gave in and sold them the
: #guns to get them off his back, he drove home and saw a car broken down on
: #the side of the road. He stopped to help, and it turned out to be a trap.
: #He was arrested by the feds. I don't agree with Randy Weaver or his
: #family's politics, but they were most assuredly the victims from the very
: #start in this battle. The more you know the more horrifying it becomes.
: #No amount of money can compinsate for the loss of his wife and son.
: But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
: harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
: be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
: a right wing paramilitary nut.
You left out "Koresh worshipper."
--
Keith
Unknown
>In <4gt8h5$d...@maureen.teleport.com> kath...@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) writes:
>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
>#heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
>#badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
>#want to sell them any guns.
All Randy Weaver had to do to say his family was to lay down his
weapons and come out into the open with his hands raised. Then he
could have fought them in court.
Michael McClary
Anonymous <nob...@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
>*** Answering a msg posted in area REC.ARTS.WOBEGON (Usenet).
>
> bshe...@world.std.com wrote to All:
>
> b> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >> Where is the glorification in Peter Rowan's lyrics? What happened to
> >> the Weaver family was a human tragedy, the result of a bolluxed
> >> Government operation.
>
>
I haven't checked this, but I understand that the BATF sawed-off-shotgun
trick works like this:
- The barrel and chamber on a typical shotgun are made of a single piece
of pipe. The chamber is the wide part of the hole, where the shell sits
while being fired.
- It is legal to shorten a shotgun by sawing off the end, provided the
new length of the barrel is no shorter than the number of inches
specified in FFA '32.
- But as the law is interpreted, the measurement doesn't start at the
back of the rod containing the chamber and barrel. It starts at the
boundary between the chamber and the barrel. (I'm not sure exactly
how that's defined. End of the longest standard shell it will feed?)
- The BATF undercover agent offers to buy shotguns that have been sawed
off, "the shorter the better", at significantly over the market price
for such guns. If the victim won't saw them off shorter than the legal
limit, they try to fool him about where to take the measurement. One
of the following happens:
- The victim deliberately saws off the gun below the legal limit,
ignoring the law. (Even this is entrapment, since there was no
intent to violate the law until the BATF created it by offering
money for a sawed-off shotgun.)
- The victim saws off the gun to about what he believes is the legal
limit, but measures it from the wrong place, unintentionally breaking
the law. (Again it's entrapment, and it also fails the test of
"intent", since the victim was trying to comply with the law.)
- The victim saws off the gun to just above the legal limit.
But even in the third case the victim is in trouble, because once he has
sold the BATF a sawed-off shotgun they can saw it off farther, and claim
the result was the victim's work. Accused's word against federal agents,
no witnesses, guess who wins in court.
This is not theoretical: The BATF had long been rumored to pull this
stunt as a standard procedure, to establish a blackmail hook for enroling
informants (as with Weaver) or to intimidate or punish gunsmiths who were
disputing some agency misconduct. They tried it on a gunsmith/dealer in
the Sacremento area a couple years back, and he got together with a
reporter from the Sacremento Bee.
The gunsmith cut down the gun to close to the (real) legal limit, the
reporter etched his initials just inside the muzzle, and witnessed the
handoff of the altered gun to the BATF undercover agent. Sure enough,
the BATF brought charges and the gun showed up even shorter and without
the reporter's initials. OOPS! (The reporter got his story, the agency
got another embarrassment, and the gunsmith got off. Needless to say,
the Bee story didn't get much national exposure, unless you count this
newsgroup. B-( )
--
When gun-banning is an issue, it overrides all others. With guns we might
win back the other rights. Without guns, all other rights vanish at our
rulers' convenience.
Michael McClary mcc...@netcom.com
For faster response, address electronic mail to: mic...@node.com
Wolf
#gt6...@cad.gatech.edu (Wolf) wrote:
#>In <4gt8h5$d...@maureen.teleport.com> kath...@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) writes:
#>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
#>#heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
#>#badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
#>#want to sell them any guns.
#All Randy Weaver had to do to say his family was to lay down his
#weapons and come out into the open with his hands raised. Then he
#could have fought them in court.
By the time Randy knew WHO was out there, his son and wife were already
dead...
Get a clue...
(Oh, fighting them in court can get really tricky... just ask the Branch
Davidians who are currently in jail, or Donald Scott (oops, he's dead)).
Even with evidence of clear lawbreaking, misconduct by Federal LEO's is seldom
dealt with.
James
Dexter Guptill
>gt6...@cad.gatech.edu (Wolf) wrote:
>
>>In <4gt8h5$d...@maureen.teleport.com> kath...@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) writes:
>
>>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
>
>
>
and get murdered. Just like his son. Now, I'll grant you, the FBI
_probably_ wouldn't have actually shot him. On the other hand, _Weaver_
was firmly convinced otherwise, given that the Marshals' Service opened
hostilities by shooting his dog and his son.
*** Dexter C. Guptill, Computer Services, American Fed of Teachers
*** Cmdr, 49th VA Vol Inf, CSA (N-SSA); Pvt, Hampden's Regt of Foote (ECW)
*** AKA Ld. Erich von Kleinfeld, Stierbach, Atlantia (SCA)
DISCLAIMER: This is me, not AFT. They'd freak over some of my opinions...:-)
Matt Giwer
>>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
>>#heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
>>#badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
>>#want to sell them any guns.
>All Randy Weaver had to do to say his family was to lay down his
>weapons and come out into the open with his hands raised. Then he
>could have fought them in court.
When could they have done that? As you know the FBI started
shooting before announcing their presense or calling for surrender. It is
traditional to do that before shooting and that "tradition" is in the law.
That is why the committee held the shoot to be illegal. But
you know that.
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)
One finger is all a real American needs to deal with the government.
It takes a village idiot and other truths children have already learned.
LK Luedtke
>But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
>harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
>be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
>a right wing paramilitary nut.
>
even less glorification than he got in that sophmoric song. As for
the government, well, we've probably seen it all before. If you guys
want to engage in endless arguments and insults on this subject,
I would like to suggest you set up your own usenet.
Brian Sheehan
>*** Answering a msg posted in area REC.ARTS.WOBEGON (Usenet).
> bshe...@world.std.com wrote to All:
> b> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> Where is the glorification in Peter Rowan's lyrics? What happened to
> >> the Weaver family was a human tragedy, the result of a bolluxed
> >> Government operation.
> b> You have some good points, but you kind of gloss over that little bit
> b> about "selling a sawed off shotgun" to a deputy. It's not exactly as
> b> if he was wanted for overdue library books.
>Wrong: He was _entrapped_ by a BATF asset for purposes of _blackmail_.
> b> And in any case, he had
> b> the opportunity to have his day in court.
>Yes, a month _before_ the "erroneous" date on his summons.
>Really, if you see fit to make a lot of judgmental comments on the
>subject, you ought to have some faint notion of the facts. It's not as
>though they're secret anymore.
Oh my God- now someone's crossposting this stuff to alt.conspiracy! This kind
of proves my point about "truth in crossposting".
FALC...@cris.com
>In <4gvj2q$n...@server.cntfl.com> (harvy butts) writes:
>
>#gt6...@cad.gatech.edu (Wolf) wrote:
>
>
>#>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
>#>#heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
>#>#badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
>#>#want to sell them any guns.
>
>
>#All Randy Weaver had to do to say his family was to lay down his
>#weapons and come out into the open with his hands raised. Then he
>#could have fought them in court.
>By the time Randy knew WHO was out there, his son and wife were already
>dead...
>
>Get a clue...
>
>(Oh, fighting them in court can get really tricky... just ask the Branch
>Davidians who are currently in jail, or Donald Scott (oops, he's dead)).
>
>Even with evidence of clear lawbreaking, misconduct by Federal LEO's is seldom
>dealt with.
>
>James
>
How can any one justifiy a pack of jack booted thugs running around
haraasing honest Americans. The government has no right to control fire arms.
The feds are getting it from both ends. They control and sell the drugs and
then collect taxes from honest Americans to HA prevent it. They just use
the federal funds to finance the front organization. The jack booted thugs
at Ruby Ridge had two motives. The first, some dishonest federal directive
and the second, just harrasing people because they can. Its time for honest
American to stand up against the U.S. district of columbia and say enough.
Close the place up and sell it to an honest free enterprise museum.
FREE AMERICA!!!!!!!!
FALCONHI
Steve D. Fischer
>gt6...@cad.gatech.edu (Wolf) wrote:
>
>
>>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
>
>
>
Gee, they entrapped him on the sawed off shotgun charge, they lied
about his "criminality" to the FBI, killed his kid and shot HIM when
did nothing more than go out to look at his son's dead body. Yeah,
that sure is good reason to trust the FBI. He was scared shitless
they'd murder him.
David
the better.
FALC...@cris.com
>In article <4gvj2q$n...@server.cntfl.com>, harvy butts <> wrote:
>>gt6...@cad.gatech.edu (Wolf) wrote:
>>
>>>In <4gt8h5$d...@maureen.teleport.com> kath...@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) writes:
>>
>>>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
>>>#heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
>>>#badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
>>>#want to sell them any guns.
>>
>>
>>All Randy Weaver had to do to say his family was to lay down his
>>weapons and come out into the open with his hands raised. Then he
>>could have fought them in court.
>>
>and get murdered. Just like his son. Now, I'll grant you, the FBI
>_probably_ wouldn't have actually shot him. On the other hand, _Weaver_
>was firmly convinced otherwise, given that the Marshals' Service opened
>hostilities by shooting his dog and his son.
>
>
>*** Dexter C. Guptill, Computer Services, American Fed of Teachers
>*** Cmdr, 49th VA Vol Inf, CSA (N-SSA); Pvt, Hampden's Regt of Foote (ECW)
>*** AKA Ld. Erich von Kleinfeld, Stierbach, Atlantia (SCA)
>DISCLAIMER: This is me, not AFT. They'd freak over some of my opinions...:-)
>
Weaver's son heard the dog bark. Thought it was a deer or other type of game.
Took his gun ran out of the house to his death. How is it justified for thugs
to hang around in the woods spying. The thugs forced all of it. Weaver stood
on his porch. His wife walk out behind him with a child in her arms. Was he
going to give up? Is that why his wife walked out with a baby in her arms.
These honest federal thugs would not shoot now would they?
GOVERNMENT IS EVIL
FALCONHI
The Generalissimo
>
>The scum that were killed at Ruby Ridge were Nazis.The more dead Nazis
>the better.
>
>
>
>>>>>>Nich40>> and they call Pat B. a racist. Idiotic stupid fucking
assholes like you are the reasons racists began! If you don't like it
here why don't you pack your shit and head back to the sand box (middle
east). It may have been the birthplace of civilization, but it never
grew up. I've been to your homeland, and it SUCKS. In retrospect, not
quite as hard as you.
viewer
Don't fall for it. This is just a puerile troll. Probably HOOBER trying
to make the J*ws look as bad as he makes himself look.
steve hix
:gt6...@cad.gatech.edu (Wolf) wrote:
:>In <4gt8h5$d...@maureen.teleport.com> (Kathleen Mulhern) writes:
:
:>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
:>#heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
:>#badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
:>#want to sell them any guns.
:
:All Randy Weaver had to do to say his family was to lay down his
:weapons and come out into the open with his hands raised. Then he
:could have fought them in court.
Sure thing Harvy...too bad that neither the Marshalls nor the FBI
identified themselves before either opened fire.
The FBI never issued any call to surrender until after Sammy and
Vickie Weaver were both dead and Randy shot.
Miss Music
V|>>>The scum that were killed at Ruby Ridge were Nazis.The more dead Nazis
V|>>>the better.
V|>>>>>>>>Nich40>> and they call Pat B. a racist. Idiotic stupid
<obscene language deleted>
V|>Don't fall for it. This is just a puerile troll. Probably HOOBER trying
V|>to make the J*ws look as bad as he makes himself look.
Does ANYONE know how we can stop this drivel and get back to the topic
of this Newsgroup? Please?? Good grief. . . . !
---
* OLXWin 1.00b * Schizophrenia beats being alone.
Anonymous
>> Oh my God- now someone's crossposting this stuff to alt.conspiracy!
>> This kind of proves my point about "truth in crossposting".
Yep, Congressional investigations concluded that:
1. The BATF conspired to entrap Randy Weaver for purposes of blackmail
2. The FBI conspired to suppress and falsify evidence
Still unclear is whether the FBI actually conspired to commit first
degree murder, but the evidence sure suggests it.
"Truth in crossposting," indeed!
When some dimwit makes a bunch of offensive comments about some
significant episode of which he is woefully ignorant, expect the thread
to get crossposted to appropriate venues for more informed input.
Get over it.
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
>> But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
>> harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
>> be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
>> a right wing paramilitary nut.
>
>
> You left out "Koresh worshipper."
And "child molester."
---
Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA LEAA JPFO
Sponsor, BATF Abuse Page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
"Apparently, on New Texas, killing a politician was not _malum in se_, and was
_malum prohibitorum_ only to the extent that what the politician got was in
excess of what he deserved."
- H. Beam Piper, _Lone Star Planet_ aka _A Planet For Texans_
kev...@cc.usu.edu
> The scum that were killed at Ruby Ridge were Nazis.The more dead Nazis
>
You obviously haven't learned anything from the Shoah, have you?
Kevin M. Okleberry
John Luebbers
writes:
John Luebbers
Mulhern) writes:
>
>In article <4gvd1k$e...@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com>,
> k...@cv.hp.com (Keith Marchington) wrote:
>
>>: they harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the
>>: shotgun, you'll be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b)
radical
>>: gun goon, and c) a right wing paramilitary nut.
>>
>>
>> You left out "Koresh worshipper."
>
>Yes, I just may. But I will be labeled those things by people who
have
>only heard one side of the story. I still want to know why the
horrors of
>what happened to the Weaver family was not covered on the news.
Again, I
>could not be more in opposition of the political ideologies held by
Randy
>Weaver and his family. But they removed themselves voluntarily from
>elements they didn't like and were quiet, law abiding citizens, I'll
be it
>with highly objectional views. I'd like to think we live in a country
>where a person can hold their beliefs freely and practice their first
>amendment rights. Apparently I was wrong.
>
>----
>--kath...@teleport.com
>
>"I have no respect for a man who can
>only think of one way to spell a word."
> -Andrew Jackson
There is hope for you yet Kathleen.
Brian Sheehan
>"Truth in crossposting," indeed!
>Get over it.
Well, at least he spelled "venues" correctly. As to whether or not he knows
what it means, well...
(Could this be one of those Kibo things, where some guy sets up a program or
script of some sort to automatically post random followups whenever someone
uses the string "alt.conspiracy" in a post? And if so, would that constitute a
conspiracy? And what about that name- "anonymous"? I know I've heard it
somewhere before!!)
Greg Hill
Denise H.
Matthew T. Russotto
}gt6...@cad.gatech.edu (Wolf) wrote:
}
}
}>#More on this... I think his "entrappment" was among the worst I've ever
}>#heard of (not that any form of entrappment is a good thing.) He was
}>#badgered by undercover feds for _years_ when he initially said he didn't
}>#want to sell them any guns.
}
}
}All Randy Weaver had to do to say his family was to lay down his
}weapons and come out into the open with his hands raised. Then he
}could have fought them in court.
Would that be before or after his son was shot in the back by
unidentified Federal agents?
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com russ...@his.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Tom Betz
> I want to take my hats off for the first person who decided to do the
> first cross-posting. WHAT A FINE MESS YOU PUT US IN!!!!!!
It can be argued that the mess started with a bunch of ill-informed posts
demonizing Randy Weaver and Peter Rowan, and questioning Garrison's sanity
for letting Rowan sing about Weaver as if he were a human being deserving of
some sympathy for for the way he and his loved ones were ill-used by a bunch
of incompetent, lying Federal agents. It can even be argued that this mess
started when Garrison stirred the pot. I won't argue any position here;
I'm also tired of the subject, which has been well-informed here since it
was first raised.
The world >will< come in to Lake Wobegon, driving Toyotas and even Ryder
trucks. Covering your eyes and plugging your ears will not prevent it,
but it may make you feel better, so I give you this entry for your killfile:
/^Newsgroups:.*\,alt.conspiracy\,/h:=:j
You may substitute the name of any newsgroup whose denizens you wish not
to engage in conversation.
--
---- Tom Betz --------- <http://www.pobox.com/~tbetz> ------ (914) 375-1510 --
tb...@pobox.com | We have tried ignorance for a very long | tb...@panix.com
------------------+ time, and it's time we tried education. +-----------------
-- Computers help us to solve problems we never had before they came along. --
Jan Blair
>trucks. Covering your eyes and plugging your ears will not prevent it,
Tom, Loathe though I am to jump into this stream, I will point out
that, actually, here, in this case, you are incorrect.
The world will only enter Lake Wobegon as Garrison allows it to.
That's why we listen to Garrison on Saturday's as opposed to another
evening of the six 'o clock news.
JB
Phil Ngai
Steve D. Fischer <str...@crl.com> wrote:
<In article <4gvj2q$n...@server.cntfl.com>, harvy butts <> wrote:
<>weapons and come out into the open with his hands raised. Then he
<>could have fought them in court.
<
<about his "criminality" to the FBI, killed his kid and shot HIM when
<did nothing more than go out to look at his son's dead body. Yeah,
<that sure is good reason to trust the FBI. He was scared shitless
<they'd murder him.
How about the part where a hidden FBI sniper, without any warning at
all, shoot Mrs. Weaver in the mouth with a high powered rifle. She was
not carrying any weapons, only her baby. The baby was injured by bone
fragments when Mrs. Weaver's jaw exploded from the impact of the rifle
bullet.
PS: I don't like racists.
--
In ten years, Apple Computer has gone from a company which talked
about how great their computers were to a company which talks
about how great their computers were 10 years ago.
Matthew T. Russotto
}i have no intention of supporting him or his type in any way.It's nothing
}personal to the Weaver case, by the way. I just happen to believe that
}
}* ALL people who arm themselves with weapons designed to kill other humans are
}stupid nuisances because their behaviour results in precious governmental
}resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions; and
}
}* ALL people who carry arms for any purpose other than food hunting (this
}includes police, too) are a danger to society insofar as they are more likely
}than unarmed people to hurt their fellow humans.
}
}I remain, in short, firmly opposed to the BATF on all levels -- and just as
}firmly opposed to Randy Weaver's gun-fetish.
}
}And that, friends, is one of many *anarchist* positions.
An anarchist who believes governmental resources are precious? And
that a person is to blame for government's response to his behavior?
BTW, a 6' 4" bodybuilder is more likely (or at least, more ABLE -- but
that applies to weapons also) to hurt fellow humans than a 5' 6" couch
potato. Does that mean large muscular people are a danger to society?
Wolf
#In
#talk.politics.guns,rec.arts.wobegon,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.p
#olitics.usa.republican, Wolf wrote:
#> But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
#> harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
#> be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
#> a right wing paramilitary nut.
#>
#> Nice world, ain't it?
#>
#> James
#Those two statements -- telling someone that they will be reviled by the world if
#they agree with you and following with a piece of sarcasm against the world --
#are either a hallmark of paranoid thinking or an intance of one of the simplest
#and most easily detected forms of (often unconscious) manipulation designed to
#get the listener to agree with one's hidden premises.
Ah, another psychoanalyst who thinks they can figure out what makes me tick
based on two sentences I've typed...
#If it's paranoid thinking, well, too bad. If it's manipulative rhetoric, it can
#stand the light of exposure:
#The hidden premise is that not all gun-toters are bad folks or that so-called
#liberals can support gun-toting. One could call it a special case of the phony
#"politics makes strange bedfellows" premise which rhetorical manipulators try to
#ram down the throats of the gulible at every opportunity.
Actually, it's called sarcasm, that someone who actually is concerned about
civil rights can be reviled by those who claim to care about such things.
#The way the hidden "strange bedfellows" premise is embedded is as follows: if you
#agree that Randy Weaver was entrapped, you'll be called a right wing nut (insert
#sarcasm here about the big bad world to deflect linear thinking) and since you'll
#be labelled right wing by the big bad world, well, i suppose that means you have
#something in common with us right wing gun goons, so, see, we're just like you
#and you're just like us.
#If you discard the sarcasm that decorates the statements, the "you'll be called
#right wing" prediction is laid bare to charges of non-factuality. For instance, i
#can prove to my own satisfaction that the statement is not true because i
#published a 32-page comic book about how wrong the BATF was in the David Koresh
#case and no one has yet called ME a right wing paramilitary nut. If i don't agree
#with the stated facts ("you'll be called a right wing nut") and i am not
#bamboozled by the sarcarsm, then the whole statement is just a pack of cards, as
#Alice would say.
You've been lucky. Having followed this newsgroup since well before Ruby Ridge,
there are a fair number of people who have popped in and made some claim about
Weaver "deserving what he got", or that "his wife deserved it for being with
him", or "it's all his fault", and immediately attack anybody who questions
the actions of the BATF or the Marshall's Service (or the FBI) as anti-
government, racist, a gungoon, etc...
#Randy Weaver was entrapped -- and saying so does NOT make me an ally of the
#right. He was also a stupid nuisance and a danger to society, in my opinion, and
#i have no intention of supporting him or his type in any way.It's nothing
#personal to the Weaver case, by the way. I just happen to believe that
Actually, he has some views I didn't agree with (a LOT of views I don't agree
with), but he did the decent thing (IMO) about them - He decided that since
he wasn't comfortable living around those of other races, he would move
someplace private where he wouldn't encounter them.
#* ALL people who arm themselves with weapons designed to kill other humans are
#stupid nuisances because their behaviour results in precious governmental
#resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions; and
Never mind the need for self-defense against those who've decided they have
no part in the contract we consider "society".
#* ALL people who carry arms for any purpose other than food hunting (this
#includes police, too) are a danger to society insofar as they are more likely
#than unarmed people to hurt their fellow humans.
Weaver DID carry his guns for food hunting.
#I remain, in short, firmly opposed to the BATF on all levels -- and just as
#firmly opposed to Randy Weaver's gun-fetish.
#And that, friends, is one of many *anarchist* positions.
#catherine yronwode, unarmed and proud of it
#http://www.sonic.net/~yronwode/index.html
*shrug* To each his own, but in order for me to respect your opinion, there is
a return obligation for you to respect mine....
James
Keith Marchington
: In
: talk.politics.guns,rec.arts.wobegon,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.p
: olitics.usa.republican, Wolf wrote:
: > But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
: > harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
: > be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
: > a right wing paramilitary nut.
: >
: > Nice world, ain't it?
: >
: > James
[lecture deleted]
: Randy Weaver was entrapped -- and saying so does NOT make me an ally of the
: right. He was also a stupid nuisance and a danger to society, in my opinion, and
: i have no intention of supporting him or his type in any way.It's nothing
: personal to the Weaver case, by the way.
On this, we agree.
: I just happen to believe that
: * ALL people who arm themselves with weapons designed to kill other humans are
: stupid nuisances because their behaviour results in precious governmental
: resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions; and
Really!?!? The police are "stupid nuisances?" Security
guards are "stupid nuisances?" Fine way to talk!
: * ALL people who carry arms for any purpose other than food hunting (this
: includes police, too) are a danger to society insofar as they are more likely
: than unarmed people to hurt their fellow humans.
So when Bessie Jones, an 82 year old Chicago warded off an
attack by two youths who broke into her home, she was a danger
to society? You have a very intereting definition of
"danger."
: I remain, in short, firmly opposed to the BATF on all levels -- and just as
: firmly opposed to Randy Weaver's gun-fetish.
And what proof do you have that Randy Weaver had a gun fetish.
After all, he used his guns for one of your approved
uses--hunting.
: And that, friends,
Lady, I can assure you, you are not my friend.
: is one of many *anarchist* positions.
: catherine yronwode, unarmed and proud of it
Hey, Catherine, why don't you post a big sign on your house
saying that. Should be interesting. I mean, the threat is
those who arm themselves. The rest of the crooks aren't a
threat, are they?
--
Keith
catherine yronwode
talk.politics.guns,rec.arts.wobegon,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.p
olitics.usa.republican, Wolf wrote:
> But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
> harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
> be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
> a right wing paramilitary nut.
>
> Nice world, ain't it?
>
> James
Those two statements -- telling someone that they will be reviled by the world if
they agree with you and following with a piece of sarcasm against the world --
are either a hallmark of paranoid thinking or an intance of one of the simplest
and most easily detected forms of (often unconscious) manipulation designed to
get the listener to agree with one's hidden premises.
If it's paranoid thinking, well, too bad. If it's manipulative rhetoric, it can
stand the light of exposure:
The hidden premise is that not all gun-toters are bad folks or that so-called
liberals can support gun-toting. One could call it a special case of the phony
"politics makes strange bedfellows" premise which rhetorical manipulators try to
ram down the throats of the gulible at every opportunity.
The way the hidden "strange bedfellows" premise is embedded is as follows: if you
agree that Randy Weaver was entrapped, you'll be called a right wing nut (insert
sarcasm here about the big bad world to deflect linear thinking) and since you'll
be labelled right wing by the big bad world, well, i suppose that means you have
something in common with us right wing gun goons, so, see, we're just like you
and you're just like us.
If you discard the sarcasm that decorates the statements, the "you'll be called
right wing" prediction is laid bare to charges of non-factuality. For instance, i
can prove to my own satisfaction that the statement is not true because i
published a 32-page comic book about how wrong the BATF was in the David Koresh
case and no one has yet called ME a right wing paramilitary nut. If i don't agree
with the stated facts ("you'll be called a right wing nut") and i am not
bamboozled by the sarcarsm, then the whole statement is just a pack of cards, as
Alice would say.
Randy Weaver was entrapped -- and saying so does NOT make me an ally of the
right. He was also a stupid nuisance and a danger to society, in my opinion, and
i have no intention of supporting him or his type in any way.It's nothing
personal to the Weaver case, by the way. I just happen to believe that
* ALL people who arm themselves with weapons designed to kill other humans are
stupid nuisances because their behaviour results in precious governmental
resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions; and
* ALL people who carry arms for any purpose other than food hunting (this
includes police, too) are a danger to society insofar as they are more likely
than unarmed people to hurt their fellow humans.
I remain, in short, firmly opposed to the BATF on all levels -- and just as
firmly opposed to Randy Weaver's gun-fetish.
And that, friends, is one of many *anarchist* positions.
catherine yronwode, unarmed and proud of it
james dolan
-In article <4gvd1k$e...@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com> k...@cv.hp.com writes:
-
->> But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
->> harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
->> be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
->> a right wing paramilitary nut.
->
->
-> You left out "Koresh worshipper."
-
-And "child molester."
how about "person who's remarkably selective about which instances of
police behavior to get worked up about, in a way that just happens to
conform with a similar selectiveness displayed by a few millions of
willing dupes of bo gritz and linda thompson and company"?
Anonymous
bshe...@world.std.com wrote to All:
b> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> Brian H. Zygo wrote:
>>> And I for one don't appreciate the cross-posting.
>> I, for one, have found it informative. I always appreciate informed
>> opinion as a bulwark against ignorant opinion. You have something
>> against it?
b> I for one, have a problem with bad manners.
Really? Having read your responses, I should have thought you were
quite proficient with bad manners. You are certainly comfortable with
ignorant opinion or, for that matter, hypocrisy and internal
contradictions.
b> You can redirect followups
b> to alt.wacko.gun-nuts if you like
I'm unfamiliar with that newsgroup.
b> ...but it's considered polite...
From the very mouth of Miss Manners herself, gang!
b> ...to mention that in your posting.
There's a header field called "Newsgroups:" - look into it.
Anonymous
Go...@Israel.ios.com (David) wrote to All:
G> The scum that were killed at Ruby Ridge were Nazis.The more dead Nazis
G> the better.
"David, meet Mr. Sheehan..."
Anonymous
bshe...@world.std.com wrote to All:
Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> It can be argued that the mess started with a bunch of ill-informed
>> posts demonizing Randy Weaver and Peter Rowan, and questioning
>> Garrison's sanity for letting Rowan sing about Weaver as if he were a
>> human being deserving of some sympathy for for the way he and his
>> loved ones were ill-used by a bunch of incompetent, lying Federal
>> agents.
Precisely; it can be so argued because that's simply what _happened_.
The provoking comments were made by persons factually ignorant of the
circumstances. It is annoying to hear people who don't know what
they're talking about pontificate on the Weaver case (or that of any
other significant current event). The thread was cross-posted to
newsgroups frequented by persons who live in the real world, not in some
quaint, fictional Minnesota farm town, for factual input.
>> I'm also tired of
>> the subject, which has been well-informed here since it was first
>> raised.
No thanks at all to Mr. Sheehan.
b> You seem to feel that by crossposting the
b> discussion to newsgroups that would tend to support your position...
Such as reporting the _facts_ rather than your pure wind?
b> that
b> you have somehow been bringing us fresh revelations about the outside
b> world.
Well, it certainly disabused a few posters here of their grosser
misconceptions. If you wish to remain willfully ignorant, that's your
business, I suppose, but don't expect any congratulations for it.
b> Aside from being presumptuous, it was pretty childish.
Childish? This is rich coming from _you_, who - once put in his place
about the facts - can only resort to pathetic, "childish" responses such
as "at least he can spell `venue'..."
In Usenet lore there is supposedly nothing lower than the debater who,
having been revealed as in error, desperately looks for spelling errors
in his opponent's posts to save face.
Wrong. Someone who can only comment about the _correct_ spelling in his
opponent's posts must be even more ridiculous...or desperate.
Now, having made a prime ass of yourself, you cut back the Newsgroups:
field to minimize your embarrassment before people who actually know
about the subjects on which they post.
The venues (impeccable net-usage, BTW, since you see fit to bring it up)
to which this thread was crossposted are absolutely appropriate for the
discussion of the Weaver case, and have been re-added to this response.
Think about all this _real hard_ for about six months and get back to us
when you've figured it out.
Joe Sylvester
>
>
>* ALL people who arm themselves with weapons designed to kill other humans
are
>stupid nuisances because their behaviour results in precious governmental
>resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions; and
>* ALL people who carry arms for any purpose other than food hunting (this
>includes police, too) are a danger to society insofar as they are more likely
>than unarmed people to hurt their fellow humans.
Including those folks who drove Hitler back to his bunker?
>I remain, in short, firmly opposed to the BATF on all levels -- and just as
>firmly opposed to Randy Weaver's gun-fetish.
What gun fetish? He had very few guns for someone who lives in the woods. And
he did hunt for food. He also had bears and likely big cats to protect himself
and his family from.
>
>And that, friends, is one of many *anarchist* positions.
>
>catherine yronwode, unarmed and proud of it
Your business.
>http://www.sonic.net/~yronwode/index.html
--
The Second Amendment is the RESET button
of the United States Constitution.
("Doug McKay" <mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>)
Joe Sylvester
DON'T TREAD ON ME!
viewer
>In article <3136DE...@sonic.net>, yron...@sonic.net says...
>>
>>
>>* ALL people who arm themselves with weapons designed to kill other humans
>are
>>stupid nuisances because their behaviour results in precious governmental
>>resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions; and
* ALL people who arm themselves with words designed to inform other humans are
stupid nuisances because their behavior results in precious governmental (gag
wretch ack) resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions.
We Are Watching You, eh?
>>* ALL people who carry arms for any purpose other than food hunting (this
>>includes police, too) are a danger to society insofar as they are more likely
>>than unarmed people to hurt their fellow humans.
* ALL people who use words for any purpose other than ordering pizza (this
includes net.cops, too) are a danger to society insofar as they are more likely
than couch potatoes to confuse their fellow humans.
"Free Speech" is a privilege that needs to be reserved to the government. No
civilan has a need to communicate beyond that needed to obtain food, shelter,
etc. If a private citizen has a valid need to express himself beyond that, he
can demonstrage this need to the state, and if he is able to present a
convincing argument, a permit can be issued.
After all, we wouldn't want a return to the wild west, now would we?
no one of consequence
Um.. No. That's just a stereotype. Thank you for playing.
--
|Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wol...@io.com|
|Member Lovely Angels Fan Club/Fire Support Team/Cleanup Crew |
|"Weep for the future, Na'Toth. Weep for us all..." G'Kar, "Revelations"|
|Wittier remarks always come to mind just after sending your article....|
Brian Sheehan
>Brian Sheehan wrote:
>> And what about that name- "anonymous"? I know I've heard it
>> somewhere before!!)
>Man, that guy is a >prolific< songwriter!
But the thing that really surprises me about his posts is that someone with
his views could have been so close to the Clinton campaign. I mean, in
"Primary Colors" he seems to have been right there with Bill and Hillary the
whole time!
--
Brian T. Sheehan
bshe...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~bsheehan
Brian Sheehan
>james dolan <jdo...@math.ucr.edu> wrote:
>]francis a. ney, jr. writes:
>]
>]-In article <4gvd1k$e...@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com> k...@cv.hp.com writes:
>]-
>]->> But now, for arguing that the government/BATF was wrong for the way they
>]->> harassed and intimidated Randy Weaver into selling them the shotgun, you'll
>]->> be labeled as a) a racist/white supremecist, b) radical gun goon, and c)
>]->> a right wing paramilitary nut.
>]->
>]->
>]-> You left out "Koresh worshipper."
>]-
>]-And "child molester."
>]
>]how about "person who's remarkably selective about which instances of
>]police behavior to get worked up about, in a way that just happens to
>]conform with a similar selectiveness displayed by a few millions of
>]willing dupes of bo gritz and linda thompson and company"?
>Um.. No. That's just a stereotype. Thank you for playing.
Well, it probably passes for witty and clever on alt.conspiracy, but your post
doesn't really say anything, does it?
Now if you really disagree with the post you replied to, why don't you go and
sit someplace quiet, and see if you can come up with some cogent arguments to
support your position?
We'll wait here.
Oh, by the way- if all of this confuses you, show this message to a grownup,
and they'll be happy to explain it!!
james dolan
-james dolan <jdo...@math.ucr.edu> wrote:
-]
-]how about "person who's remarkably selective about which instances of
-]police behavior to get worked up about, in a way that just happens to
-]conform with a similar selectiveness displayed by a few millions of
-]willing dupes of bo gritz and linda thompson and company"?
-
-Um.. No. That's just a stereotype. Thank you for playing.
i don't think you actually read what i wrote. (if you did read it
then you're a _real_ idiot, because your answer makes no sense.) also
have you considered updating your stock of mindless cliches to make it
more current?
no one of consequence
]wolfone writes:
]
]-james dolan <jdo...@math.ucr.edu> wrote:
]-]
]-]how about "person who's remarkably selective about which instances of
]-]police behavior to get worked up about, in a way that just happens to
]-]conform with a similar selectiveness displayed by a few millions of
]-]willing dupes of bo gritz and linda thompson and company"?
]-
]-Um.. No. That's just a stereotype. Thank you for playing.
]
]
]i don't think you actually read what i wrote.
Don't think if you wish. I did read what you wrote and I disagree.
](if you did read it
]then you're a _real_ idiot, because your answer makes no sense.)
Hmm? The belief that those who oppose the actions of federal agencies at
Ruby Ridge and Waco are just 'willing dupes of bo gritz and linda
thompson' is not a stereotype? How odd.
]also
]have you considered updating your stock of mindless cliches to make it
]more current?
Leading question. How many posts of mine have you read to judge that I
have not updated my list of cliches? Or was this just another insult to
throw in my face in an attempt to annoy me?
Brian Sheehan
> bshe...@world.std.com wrote to All:
> b> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> Brian Sheehan wrote:
> >>> And what about that name- "anonymous"? I know I've heard it
> >>> somewhere before!!)
> b> But the thing that really surprises me about his posts is that someone
> b> with his views could have been so close to the Clinton campaign. I
> b> mean, in "Primary Colors" he seems to have been right there with Bill
> b> and Hillary the whole time!
>Good grief, what a repository of ignorance! _Thousands_ of users use
>the Cypherpunks remailers. They are _different posters_, they even have
>different opinions and levels of literacy.
Oh wow! I knew that those messages (and that book) couldn't be the work of a
single person! So there are thousands of people involved! So it IS a
conspiracy!!!
And here I thought we had a real celebrity in our midst!
PS- did you at least write the songs?
Anonymous
bshe...@world.std.com wrote to All:
b> Tom Betz <tb...@pobox.com> wrote:
Rob K.
Tales of Lake Wobegon.
I'm not chucklin' much after readin' these articles.
Oh well.......................
Chris Morton
>: > i have no intention of supporting him or his type in any way.It's nothing
>: > personal to the Weaver case, by the way. I just happen to believe that
>: > * ALL people who arm themselves with weapons designed to kill other
>: humans are
>: > stupid nuisances because their behaviour results in precious governmental
>: > resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions; and
>: >
>I agree! If the Dam jews had just courperated with old uncle adolph we
>would have had much less lose of life in WWII.
Believe it or not, a Dutchman in FidoNet said almost EXACTLY that to
me once.
He proclaimed that he was GLAD that the Jews in the Netherlands had
not taken up arms against the Nazis... because if they had, "INNOCENT
people might have been hurt"!
He clammed up tight when I asked him of what crime Ann Frank was
guilty.
Nazi is as Nazi does I guess....
May Walter DeBruin someday suffer 1/1,000,000 as much as the Dutch
Jews.
***
"I bet that this "niggerboy" is a White Anglo-Saxonian Protestant who is
fooling you just for eristical reasons." - Bernd Kassler (bp...@alnilam.toppoint.de)
Steve Brinich
> Those two statements -- telling someone that they will be reviled by
>the world if they agree with you and following with a piece of sarcasm
>against the world -- are either a hallmark of paranoid thinking or an
>intance of one of the simplest and most easily detected forms of (often
>unconscious) manipulation designed to get the listener to agree with
>one's hidden premises.
Based on my experience with these newsgroups, these two statements are,
respectively, a simple factual observation (in fact, people pointing out
the wrongness of the BATF _are_ called "gunloons", etc, on a regular basis)
followed by a commentary on the low level of Usenet discourse exemplifed
thereby.
> For instance, i can prove to my own satisfaction that the statement
>is not true because i published a 32-page comic book about how wrong
>the BATF was in the David Koresh case and no one has yet called ME
>a right wing paramilitary nut.
Obviously, the context indicates that the meaning was "if you point out
the wrongness of the BATF actions _here_, you will be called 'gunloon', etc".
Again, my observation is that this is generally true.
--
Steve Brinich | If indecent electronic transmissions | Finger PGP key
ste...@digex.net| are illegal, |89B992BBE67F7B2F
GEnie: S.BRINICH | why are they still showing C-SPAN? |64FDF2EA14374C3E
Miss Music
sac...@ix.netcom.com(Rob K. ) Wrote:
SK|>Gee, silly me, I thought this was a newsgroup about Garrison Keillor's
SK|>Tales of Lake Wobegon.
SK|>I'm not chucklin' much after readin' these articles.
So begin a new thread and start chucklin'! <G>
Sharon
---
* OLXWin 1.00b * VALLEY-DOS: Delete File? (F)er sure (N)o way, dude (R)ad
Gerald Knighton
>So, Rich, you may choose to demonize me as you will (and as so many have
>demonized Randy Weaver) -- but rest assured, I'll make sure you have your
>facts straight (as a few of us have endeavored to do with regard to Randy
>Weaver).
>I cross-posted twice, to no more than two other newsgroups, and I endeavored
>to avoid the wacko faction. For all the wacko faction other crossposts may
>have brought in, the reasoned, factual input of Messrs. Hardy and Starr
>provided both a palliative to the gross ignorance demonstrated by many here
>(along with the dismay they expressed that PHC should have aired Mr. Rowan's
>fine traditional ballad), and a satisfactory offset to the few wackos who
>wandered in behind them.
>It's my confirmed opinion that receiving the former was a fair trade for
>putting up with the latter.
>Your mileage may vary...
>-- Tom Betz ----------- <http://www.pobox.com/~tbetz> ------ (914) 375-1510 --
> tb...@pobox.com | Now that the living outnumber the dead, | tb...@panix.com
>-----------------+ I am one of many. -- Laurie Anderson +------------------
>- The whole world is a beautiful place to play music. -- Jerry Garcia, 1969 -
Well, while we're straightening facts out here, let me direct your
attention to a real group of internet heroes, yessireee! These
enlightened hateniks call themselves "The Carolinian Lords of the
Caucasus". They have decided to take over usenet in the name of "white
supremacy". Don't believe me? Here is their homepage in Austin, Texas:
http://www.io.com/%7Ewlp/aryan-page/cloc/cloc.html
For further information - If you have the stomach for it......
http://www.io.com/%7Ewlp/aryan-page/
This group, and others like them, routinely and intentionally create,
support, and use remailers like "replay.com" to wage an infantile war
of harassment in the newsgroups. Crossposting to any group where these
cave dwellers hang out about knee-jerk right wing issues such as Ruby
Ridge will almost certainly bring in a blizzard of semi-literate hate
filled invective - such as happened last week.
Don't argue with these people - you'll never get rid of them!
Don't trust their 'facts' - they believe their own propaganda!
Don't be surprised if you start getting anonymous hate mail!
I have had to deal with these yo-yos in the past, and have found that
if you ignore them long enough they'll go away. But if you really
aggravate them enough,you will get hundreds of posts or emails
artfully designed just to make you real mad. So if you guys would use
a little discretion while carrying on this arguement, I wouldn't
suffer the disapointment of having the pleasant prospect of '15 new
article headers for rec.arts.woebegone' turn into a pep rally for the
KKK fan club.
Gerald
"But If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You're not going to make it with anyone anyhow"
- John Lennon
F. Cowart
: In article <3136DE...@sonic.net>, catherine yronwode
: <yron...@sonic.net> wrote:
:
: >
: > Randy Weaver was entrapped -- and saying so does NOT make me an ally of the
: > right. He was also a stupid nuisance and a danger to society, in my
The man had climbed a hill and gone into the wilderness to AVOID society
how was he a danger to society??? if he had just been left alown he would
have died in obscuority.
: opinion, and
: > i have no intention of supporting him or his type in any way.It's nothing
: > personal to the Weaver case, by the way. I just happen to believe that
: >
: > * ALL people who arm themselves with weapons designed to kill other
: humans are
: > stupid nuisances because their behaviour results in precious governmental
: > resources being wasted on trying to monitor their actions; and
: >
: > * ALL people who carry arms for any purpose other than food hunting (this
: > includes police, too) are a danger to society insofar as they are more likely
: > than unarmed people to hurt their fellow humans.
: >
: > I remain, in short, firmly opposed to the BATF on all levels -- and just as
: > firmly opposed to Randy Weaver's gun-fetish.
: >
: > And that, friends, is one of many *anarchist* positions.
: >
: > catherine yronwode, unarmed and proud of it
: > http://www.sonic.net/~yronwode/index.html
: Catherine,
: A question or two for you:
: Take any random group of folks, devise and implement a test to measure
: how potentially tyrannical that group will become if they are:
: a.) Left to themselves as citizens with beliefs in Constitutional
: protections under Law, and allowed to possess arms as they wish; or:
: b.) Placed in positions of police power in a society brainwashed into
: believing the TV representations of good guys and bad guys...ie. the cops
: are NEARLY ALWAYS the good guys - especially when the talking heads in the
: glass teats reassure us of that fact.
: ...which group do you choose? Who will be more prone to evil? And
: who do you think will be most able to obscure their malice or errors
: if and when they are made? An ensemble of Gestapo are unlikely to
: rise much above the moral level of the individuals that comprise it.
: In my opinion, no group of Americans will become purer, more tolerant,
: less prejudiced and given to patient, factual analysis after they have
: been empowered as in case "b." And what is even worse than that, most
: people these days believe that we might be safer if the ONLY armed
: authority in the country were the police forces of case "b."
: Given the choice between random, scattered bands of armed, average
: Americans and the organized stupidity/clumsiness/malice/evil/boredom
: (whatever) of the BATF/Media Network Beast et. al., I will forever
: have more confidence in, and less fear of, the average Americans.
: Organized, centralized, infinitely funded, and forever in need of
: crises to justify their funding, agencies such as the BATF will
: never rest in their pursuit for self-justification. And if that means
: hundreds more laws, with built-in ambiguities, that will incriminate
: thousands or millions of Americans - hey! what could be better
: for BATF funding...
: We are headed toward a police state, and the tepid public reaction to
: Ruby Ridge and Waco are an indication that we deserve the police state
: we are going to get. How soon will this come to pass? Soon after it
: becomes impossible for a people to perceive, recognize, organize, and
: resist an emergent tyranny, it will become necessary to do so. No
: establishment will bother to manufacture consent much beyond the time
: when consent is no longer necessary.
: But it is good that we are soon enslaved. We will never understand
: the evil of slavery until we have lived in it. And until we thoroughly
: understand evil, we shall never long prevail against it.
Rich Ahrens
: Rich, don't let yourself be accused of making unfounded accusations.
Thanks to the detailed evidence you provided, I shan't. You'll note that
the only "accusation" I made (and I certainly did not mean it as such)
was that you were the first to introduce crossposting to this
discussion. You've been kind enough to confirm that.
: Then someone, wanting to help set the record straight, but wary of
: exactly the sort of recriminations you are so pleased to pile upon me,
: cross-posted a separate thread from mine using the anon poster at
Tom, please go back and find *anyplace* I have piled recriminations or
even criticism upon you. It's this kind of reaction that makes one
suspect paranoia (and *that* is the first characterization I have made of
you, positive or negative).
: So, Rich, you may choose to demonize me as you will (and as so many have
: demonized Randy Weaver) -- but rest assured, I'll make sure you have your
: facts straight (as a few of us have endeavored to do with regard to Randy
: Weaver).
Please get your facts straight. I have not demonized you in any way. I
never even mentioned you or responded to you in any manner prior to
noting that you initiated crossposting, a fact you have agreed to. The
closest thing you have to a grievance is that a careless reader of my
previous post *might* think you crossposted to all the named newsgroups.
I did not say that, but if you insist I am to blame for others'
misreading, fine - I apologize (even though you agree you introduced the
crossposting to all but one or two of the named groups).
: I cross-posted twice, to no more than two other newsgroups, and I endeavored
: to avoid the wacko faction. For all the wacko faction other crossposts may
: have brought in, the reasoned, factual input of Messrs. Hardy and Starr
: provided both a palliative to the gross ignorance demonstrated by many here
: (along with the dismay they expressed that PHC should have aired Mr. Rowan's
: fine traditional ballad), and a satisfactory offset to the few wackos who
: wandered in behind them.
And are you trying to paint me with that brush? Again, get your facts
straight. I have defended repeatedly and forcefully both the song and
the decision to air it on the show. I even said Weaver and his family
"are entitled not to be summarily executed by thugs wearing badges."
: It's my confirmed opinion that receiving the former was a fair trade for
: putting up with the latter.
And that is a decision each of us is entitled to make on our own behalf.
As I have pointed out to any number of readers, both here and in email,
if they disagree with you they can use killfiles to ignore the entire
thread or individuals participating in it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|Rich Ahrens | Homepage: http://www.winternet.com/~rma/ |
|r...@winternet.com|--------------------------------------------------|
| "Nobody talks more of free enterprise and competition and of the |
| best man winning than the man who inherited his father's store |
| or farm." - C. Wright Mills |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Clinard
> for awhile, but I'm curious: how did they find us? Is there a program that
> will search the Net for a key phrase? If I write the name Adolf Hitler
i don't know if its a massive "grep" on the news to look for keywords
or just that people read over articles quickly without spending much
brainpower trying to figure out what the person said: some time back i
talked about why i thought such a DIVERSE crowd enjoyed GK in responding
to a series of articles from people who identified themselves as
Lutheran, GAY, JEWISH, and i forget what else, respectively. i thought
the common thread was a higher than average level of education and basic
literacy in AMERICAN culture. one of the participants apparently did a
binary AND on GAY and JEWISH and flamed me for suggested that one had a
causal relationship with the other. i never read the email and she
quickly and kindly apologized in a subsequent note (in which she
explained her mistake), but it was sort of typical of how we (myself
included) seem to surf around the net COCKED AND LOCKED as BUCHANON,
RANDY WEAVER, and/or BATF agents might say.
p.s. i'll let you know how much automated flame mail i get.
--
Mark Clinard Georgia Tech Research Institute
(770) 528-7635 Sensors and Electromagnetic Apps
Laboratory
mark.c...@gtri.gatech.edu Atlanta, Georgia 30332
"The rationalist whose reason is not sufficient to teach him those
limitations of the powers of conscious reason, and who despises all
the institutions and customs which have not been consciously designed,
would thus become the destroyer of the civilization built upon them."
F.A. Hayek, "Economic Freedom and Representative Government"
F. Cowart
: madh...@smarty.smart.net (F. Cowart) wrote:
: >: ...which group do you choose? Who will be more prone to evil? And
: >: who do you think will be most able to obscure their malice or errors
: >: if and when they are made? An ensemble of Gestapo are unlikely to
: >: rise much above the moral level of the individuals that comprise it.
: >: Given the choice between random, scattered bands of armed, average
: >: Americans and the organized stupidity/clumsiness/malice/evil/boredom
: >: (whatever) of the BATF/Media Network Beast et. al., I will forever
: >You are correct, to kill one jew you need an arm and a case of hatered,
: >to kill 6 million jews you need organization.
You got it! The evil that one man can do is limited by his skill and
precence the evil that a government can do is unlimited because no one
person needs to take respolibility for the evil actions. I was just
flowing orders.
: "It takes a pair of hands to build a bomb. It takes a government to
: build a concentration camp."
: ***
F. Cowart
: In article <3136DE...@sonic.net>, catherine yronwode
: <yron...@sonic.net> wrote:
:
: >
: > Randy Weaver was entrapped -- and saying so does NOT make me an ally of the
: > right. He was also a stupid nuisance and a danger to society, in my
The Jews were a stupid nuisance and a danger to society; My uncle adolph
told me so; So the camps were alright??
: Catherine,
: ...which group do you choose? Who will be more prone to evil? And
: who do you think will be most able to obscure their malice or errors
: if and when they are made? An ensemble of Gestapo are unlikely to
: rise much above the moral level of the individuals that comprise it.
: In my opinion, no group of Americans will become purer, more tolerant,
: less prejudiced and given to patient, factual analysis after they have
: been empowered as in case "b." And what is even worse than that, most
: people these days believe that we might be safer if the ONLY armed
: authority in the country were the police forces of case "b."
: Given the choice between random, scattered bands of armed, average
: Americans and the organized stupidity/clumsiness/malice/evil/boredom
: (whatever) of the BATF/Media Network Beast et. al., I will forever
William T. Yates
> Pat Buchanan couldn't fight his way out
> of a plastic bag. Pat Robertson is un-American. George Will eats raw fish.
Not that I'm a Pat Buchanan fan, or that I agree with everything Pat
Robertson says or does, but George Will is a damn good writer, and
besides, what do you have against sushi? :)
--Bill Yates
--wty...@vcnet.com
--wty...@aol.com
Steve D. Fischer
David Salvador Flores <ds...@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>In article <JywOxwUN...@bctv.com>, Keith Wood <kei...@bctv.com> wrote:
>>In article <4h1qco$p...@news.ios.com>, David <Go...@Israel.ios.com> wrote:
>>[The scum that were killed at Ruby Ridge were Nazis.The more dead Nazis
>>[the better.
>>
>>If it's "Nazi" to want to separate yourself from people of other races, then
>>the Israelis are Nazis.
>
>There are plenty of Arab Israelis. The Israelis shipped in black Jews from
>Ethiopea in the midst of an Ethiopean famine.
>
>So try again.
>
>-Dave
>
One periodically reads that the Ethiopian Jews get the short end
of the civil rights stick in Israel. Are some Jewish residents better
than others?
Michael Zarlenga
Tin soldiers and Clinton's coming
we're finally on our own
last summer I heard the drumming
4 dead in Idaho
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
Dole for President. Let's veto the Liar and her husband in 1996.
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP Public key and killfile
WB or CM Hilbrich
: . On second thought ... all those guys out there
: on the lake, ice fishing in their little houses ... they have to do
: something with whatever it is that they catch ... can you picture
: walleye sushi?
: :-)
**** Actually, they throw them out the door, and hope that the fish does
not land in the Yellow Snow..... Must "sushi" up here in Minnesota is in
the form of pickled herring, or (really) pickled pike, on crackers washed
down with brandy..
Bill
--
=============================================================================
Bill Hilbrich hilb...@cloudnet.com
" It's A Magical World, Hobbes, Ol' Buddy... ...Let's Go Exploring ! "
Calvin's Last Words 12/31/95
=============================================================================
Dave Larson
Patricia Dunkin
Did Dorothy ever serve it at the Chatterbox? I'm not even sure her
sister, who used to take over when Dorothy was on vacation, would have
put sushi on the menu. On second thought ... all those guys out there
JOY FLORESTANO
PN>Did Dorothy ever serve it at the Chatterbox? I'm not even sure her
PN>sister, who used to take over when Dorothy was on vacation, would have
PN>put sushi on the menu. On second thought ... all those guys out there
PN>on the lake, ice fishing in their little houses ... they have to do
PN>something with whatever it is that they catch ... can you picture
PN>walleye sushi?
Loved your comments, and just thought you might enjoy this tagline...
Joy
---
* OLXWin 1.00 * In Canada there is another word for Sushi.......BAIT!
Rich Ahrens
: what I've learned in that newsgroup is that freshwater sushi is a no-no.
: So save the walleye for "walleye-on-a-stick".
Hey, you've been to the Minnesota State Fair! Have you tried the
gefilte-fish-on-a-stick?
(I'm a fair and carnival junk food junkie. My favorite bit of cultural
dissonance was the BBQ pork chop on a bagel I once saw at a Strawberry
Festival outside of Tampa.)
Dennis Sullivan
: *** Hey.. Lets not forget the Taco in a Bag... Crush a bag of Fritos,
: throw in some taco meat. lettuce and a little hot sauce and eat it with
: fork while you are drooling over the new Tractors with Air Conditioned
: Cabs, Cell Phones and CD Players...
:
Bill, it's been a long time since you visited the fair fair. Machinery hill
is now occupied by stuff connected with the suburbs, such as lawn
tractors and such. Machinery hill now takes place in Fargo, North Dakota and
is called "Big Iron". A couple of years ago, the Morning Show commissioned
Anne Reed to write a song about my Fair Fair, which pretty much describes
in great detail what machinery hill is all about. Yep, you can watch
dog surgery!
Dennis Sullivan
St. Paul, Minnesota
WB or CM Hilbrich
: Peggy Rossing (peg...@prossing.mv.com) wrote:
: : what I've learned in that newsgroup is that freshwater sushi is a no-no.
: : So save the walleye for "walleye-on-a-stick".
: Hey, you've been to the Minnesota State Fair! Have you tried the
: gefilte-fish-on-a-stick?
: (I'm a fair and carnival junk food junkie. My favorite bit of cultural
: dissonance was the BBQ pork chop on a bagel I once saw at a Strawberry
: Festival outside of Tampa.)
*** Hey.. Lets not forget the Taco in a Bag... Crush a bag of Fritos,
throw in some taco meat. lettuce and a little hot sauce and eat it with
fork while you are drooling over the new Tractors with Air Conditioned
Cabs, Cell Phones and CD Players...
Bill
--
=============================================================================
Peggy Rossing
> : and if I can tell him they have it, maybe he'll want to go to MN
> : in August this year!
>
> I haven't seen any, but that doesn't guarantee its absence. I'd hate to
> think of the logistics of keeping it fresh in that crowd in the heat
> that is possible at that time, though. There was lutefisk to be had last
> year, though.
Oh yes, the heat. It's been so long I've forgotten all about heat.
Not all sushi is raw, California rolls for example. Smoked salmon
rolls are quite popular. So lutefisk rolls would be novel. I could
also see rolling up some fried smelt in a sushi roll in about a month.
> Can you sway him with all the milk he can drink for 50 cents?
I sent him an article from today's Star/Tribune daily web page, about
the 3-story Barnes and Noble at the Edina Galleria. That might do
it!
peggy