The last guy who should advise on having children

[Adam H. Kerman]

Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.

He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.

It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801

[Ian J. Ball]

Yeah - your pets actually want to murder you! Your kids just resent you!!


--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

[Adam H. Kerman]

Ian J. Ball <IJB...@mac.invalid> wrote:
>On 2022-01-06 14:56:00 +0000, Adam H. Kerman said:

>>Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
>>declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.

>>He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.

>>It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!

>>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801

>Yeah - your pets actually want to murder you! Your kids just resent you!!

Bonk

Ian has given Usenet the gift of an obvious straight line. anim, you
take this one.

[anim8rfsk]

He’s had lots and lots of children.

All other peoples.

--
“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

[anim8rfsk]

Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

I already used my reply allotment on your initial post.

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 06:59:30 -0800, Ian J. Ball <IJB...@mac.invalid>
wrote:

>> Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
>> declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.
>>
>> He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.
>>
>> It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!
>>
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801
>
>Yeah - your pets actually want to murder you! Your kids just resent you!!
>

I dunno - our kitty was pretty friendly this morning immediately after
I fed her.

Our kids mostly resent us as an age cohort due to housing prices
(which have escalated in Canada at twice the US rate during Covid)
rather than us specifically.

[Your Name]

On 2022-01-06 15:53:33 +0000, anim8rfsk said:
> Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
>> declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.
>>
>> He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.
>>
>> It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!
>>
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801
>>
>
> He’s had lots and lots of children.
>
> All other peoples.

More like all illegitimate and unacknoweldged, and created during his
Priest-ial "duties" of sexually abusing his younger followers.

[Rhino]

And yet the Pope is correct in pointing out that many countries are not
producing children at the replacement rate, roughly 2.1 children per
couple, and that those countries are inevitably going to see significant
population shrinkage.

How significant? Well, I saw one projection that showed China's
population falling to 700 million, half of its current level, this
century. Japan is aging rapidly and couples are having few children so
it will also shrink in terms of population. MANY other countries,
including many in Europe, are in the same boat or soon will be.

These countries will either "shrink" (again, in terms of population) as
they age, making ever-increasing demands on the young to care for the
old, or have to make up deficits by immigration - and that's not a
realistic option for truly xenophobic societies like Japan. It's already
creating tensions even in countries that have historically been
accepting of immigration like Canada and the US.

Go to YouTube for example and you'll find a slew of videos on topics
like "fertility rate", "population collapse" and similar terms.

Here's just one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbLf9ne119w [10 minutes]

So, while the Pope may be among the least appropriate people to speak on
this topic given his own official abstention from marriage, he's not
wrong about identifying the problem. He's even got a vested interest in
the problem given that official church doctrine still opposes
contraception, even if most Catholics don't follow that particular
policy. But if the Pope can get more people to "go forth and multiply",
his church will be a beneficiary, at least if the people having babies
at least if the parents are Catholics.

--
Rhino

[Adam H. Kerman]

Rhino <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>On 2022-01-06 9:56 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
>>declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.

>>He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.

>>It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!

>>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801

>And yet the Pope is correct in pointing out that many countries are not
>producing children at the replacement rate, roughly 2.1 children per
>couple, and that those countries are inevitably going to see significant

>population shrinkage. . . .

Yes, that's a demographic observation he's made. He is absolutely not
correct that people own pets as a substitute for having children, 'cuz
you know, families with children own pets and everyone with a pet has a
pet because he wants the pet for its own sake without regard to
reproducing.

Nevertheless, given what he does for a living and a long-term history of
bad institutional acts, this is truly something he is in no position to
lecture young people in child-bearing years on.

It would be laughable if it weren't sad, if not criminal.

[Ed Stasiak]

> Rhino

>
> And yet the Pope is correct in pointing out that many countries are not
> producing children at the replacement rate, roughly 2.1 children per
> couple, and that those countries are inevitably going to see significant
> population shrinkage.

There are too many people on the planet as it is.

But who will buy property?! I guess real estate prices will just have to fall.

Who will pollute the land, air and oceans?! I guess we’ll just have to watch
pollution decrease.

Who will work unskilled jobs for a pittance?! I guess wages will have to go up.

More people only benefits the 1%ers on Wall Street.

[Rhino]

On 2022-01-06 4:10 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Rhino <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-01-06 9:56 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
>>> Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
>>> declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.
>
>>> He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.
>
>>> It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!
>
>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801
>
>> And yet the Pope is correct in pointing out that many countries are not
>> producing children at the replacement rate, roughly 2.1 children per
>> couple, and that those countries are inevitably going to see significant
>> population shrinkage. . . .
>
> Yes, that's a demographic observation he's made. He is absolutely not
> correct that people own pets as a substitute for having children, 'cuz
> you know, families with children own pets and everyone with a pet has a
> pet because he wants the pet for its own sake without regard to
> reproducing.
>

I know lots of people that refer to their pets as their "fur babies" and
identify themselves as the pet's "parents". I think there may be
*something* to the idea that pets are surrogate children, at least for
some adults. Obviously, you are correct that some families include both
pets AND children.

> Nevertheless, given what he does for a living and a long-term history of
> bad institutional acts, this is truly something he is in no position to
> lecture young people in child-bearing years on.
>
> It would be laughable if it weren't sad, if not criminal.

Criminal? That's going a bit over the top isn't it?

I think many, many countries are going to get some education on the
consequences of demographics in the coming decades. They're going to
either see their populations age and decline in numbers with a
consequent reduction in power or they're going to experience all the
results of large numbers of immigrants, some of which will not be pretty.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

We'll see how it all works out....

--
Rhino

[Ed Stasiak]

> Rhino
> > Ed Stasiak

> >
> > More people only benefits the 1%ers on Wall Street.
>
> We'll see how it all works out....

The fewer people there are on Earth, the more valuable
each individual is and those fewer people will have more
money, a higher standard of living and more political power.

A large population only benefits the elites, which is why we
have this faux-hand wringing over birth rates in the West and
thus the purposely uncontrolled mass migration from the
third-world.

[shawn]

A decreasing population also brings with it deflation hitting
everything from grocery items to homes to stocks. Such that it might
be great if you are just coming of age as things will be cheaper for
you than they were for your parents but for everyone else that owned
anything they will see it decrease in value. Also there's the issue of
the speed of technological development being impacted by having fewer
people around meaning less people who can make the sort of
technological breakthroughs that we have become used to.

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:05:12 -0500, Rhino
<no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>These countries will either "shrink" (again, in terms of population) as
>they age, making ever-increasing demands on the young to care for the
>old, or have to make up deficits by immigration - and that's not a
>realistic option for truly xenophobic societies like Japan. It's already
>creating tensions even in countries that have historically been
>accepting of immigration like Canada and the US.
>

Canada would be handling immigration just fine except for the fact
that Trudeau has hugely raised the number of immigrants allowed into
Canada since his father's day and on top of that scrapped the old
policy that used to say 'no more than 10% from any one country' to the
present situation where he's accepting 30-35% from the Peoples'
Republic of China (which is problematic in itself) and 20-25% from
India. And I very much do think the present immigration rate is
economically unsustainable.

Let's be clear - Hong Kong originated the world's first "foreign buyer
tax" at a rate of 15% (later raised to 30%) and it was PRIMARILY aimed
at the PRC. Hong Kong papers used to be very plain that there was a
cultural difference between Mainlanders and the Overseas Chinese
(chiefly HK, Singapore and North America) that was rankling the local
population and that that existed both before anc since 1997 - and was
a big part in the 15% tax becoming 30%.

Indians tend to blend in more and are much more diverse than 50 years
ago when Indian immigrants used to mean Sikhs almost entirely.

[Rhino]

Did you watch the video at the link I provided in my first post to this
thread? There are also some NEGATIVE consequences to the population
shrinkage, like who is going to pay to care for you in your old age....

It's not a complete win-win-win-win if populations decline although
there certainly would be SOME positives to go with the negatives, as
you've pointed out.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

On 2022-01-06 6:14 PM, shawn wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 14:52:47 -0800 (PST), Ed Stasiak
> <edstas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Rhino
>>>> Ed Stasiak
>>>>
>>>> More people only benefits the 1%ers on Wall Street.
>>>
>>> We'll see how it all works out....
>>
>> The fewer people there are on Earth, the more valuable
>> each individual is and those fewer people will have more
>> money, a higher standard of living and more political power.
>>
>> A large population only benefits the elites, which is why we
>> have this faux-hand wringing over birth rates in the West and
>> thus the purposely uncontrolled mass migration from the
>> third-world.
>
> A decreasing population also brings with it deflation hitting
> everything from grocery items to homes to stocks.

I remember my mother telling me in the late 70s/early 80s when we had a
lot of inflation that if I thought this was bad to hope that I never had
to live through a major DEFLATION because it was much worse.

> Such that it might
> be great if you are just coming of age as things will be cheaper for
> you than they were for your parents but for everyone else that owned
> anything they will see it decrease in value. Also there's the issue of
> the speed of technological development being impacted by having fewer
> people around meaning less people who can make the sort of
> technological breakthroughs that we have become used to.

I'm not sure that is particularly important. I suspect that most
innovation comes from a handful of people, often working individually,
at least in the early stages. I'm thinking of the Bell, Edison, Tesla
and the Wright brothers of the world who did at least their initial
research pretty much by themselves in a small workshop. Sure, additional
bodies may get used to refine an innovation or figure out how to make it
more economically but the basic discovery tends to be a one- or
two-person effort.

--
Rhino

[shawn]

That's ignoring the fact that if you have 7 billion people (randomly
selected) versus 1 billion people (also randomly selected) the
statistics suggest there will be more of those innovative people that
push technology like Tesla or Bell in the 7 billion population.

[shawn]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:45:21 -0500, Rhino
<no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>On 2022-01-06 5:52 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
>>> Rhino
>>>> Ed Stasiak
>>>>
>>>> More people only benefits the 1%ers on Wall Street.
>>>
>>> We'll see how it all works out....
>>
>> The fewer people there are on Earth, the more valuable
>> each individual is and those fewer people will have more
>> money, a higher standard of living and more political power.
>>
>> A large population only benefits the elites, which is why we
>> have this faux-hand wringing over birth rates in the West and
>> thus the purposely uncontrolled mass migration from the
>> third-world.
>
>Did you watch the video at the link I provided in my first post to this
>thread? There are also some NEGATIVE consequences to the population
>shrinkage, like who is going to pay to care for you in your old age....

Apparently this is one reason why Japan is pushing the development of
advanced robots. To help with their aging population as with the
decline in population and their relative unwillingness to bring in
lots of foreigners they will need more mechanical assistance to do
that work.

[Rhino]

>> bodies may get used to refine an innovation or figure out how to make iti

>> more economically but the basic discovery tends to be a one- or
>> two-person effort.
>
> That's ignoring the fact that if you have 7 billion people (randomly
> selected) versus 1 billion people (also randomly selected) the
> statistics suggest there will be more of those innovative people that
> push technology like Tesla or Bell in the 7 billion population.

You're assuming that "genius" (for want of a better term) is always
present in the exact same percentage of the population regardless of the
size of the population and no other factors come into play in producing
geniuses. I'm not sure either assumption is supportable. Maybe there are
more geniuses in societies that value creativity than in ones that
discourage it. Perhaps economics is a factor with materially wealthy
countries having more geniuses than very poor ones. Etc. etc.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

On 2022-01-06 7:16 PM, shawn wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:45:21 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-01-06 5:52 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
>>>> Rhino
>>>>> Ed Stasiak
>>>>>
>>>>> More people only benefits the 1%ers on Wall Street.
>>>>
>>>> We'll see how it all works out....
>>>
>>> The fewer people there are on Earth, the more valuable
>>> each individual is and those fewer people will have more
>>> money, a higher standard of living and more political power.
>>>
>>> A large population only benefits the elites, which is why we
>>> have this faux-hand wringing over birth rates in the West and
>>> thus the purposely uncontrolled mass migration from the
>>> third-world.
>>
>> Did you watch the video at the link I provided in my first post to this
>> thread? There are also some NEGATIVE consequences to the population
>> shrinkage, like who is going to pay to care for you in your old age....
>
> Apparently this is one reason why Japan is pushing the development of
> advanced robots. To help with their aging population as with the
> decline in population and their relative unwillingness to bring in
> lots of foreigners they will need more mechanical assistance to do
> that work.
>

I've heard this speculation as well: essentially, Japanese people would
rather be cared for by robots than foreigners. Or at least that's what
the corporations doing the research are banking on. But I don't know if
the corporations have actually said that or if it was analysts conjuring
that up on their own.

>> It's not a complete win-win-win-win if populations decline although
>> there certainly would be SOME positives to go with the negatives, as
>> you've pointed out.

--
Rhino

[shawn]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:01:20 -0500, Rhino

And you are assuming otherwise. I won't discount the value in
economics playing a factor. Certainly we an see that in the USA versus
China of the pre-2000s. Though now we see China starting to turn that
around with more and more PhDs graduating each year and they are
producing more improvements in technology each year. I've seen some
discussion of them producing more patents than the USA which isn't
that surprising given their population advantage but seeing the change
in the last few decades suggests that the economics play a huge
advantage in allowing the brightest to shine.

Neither one of us can prove our points but it is my assumption that
the spread of genius/bright individuals is going to be somewhat even
among different populations. So China would have more of those
brightest individuals than the USA, but would be held back by the
economy and the culture.

[RichA]

He's right. Western countries have very low birthrates, not enough to keep the population young and not enough to keep populated, hence immigration from countries with younger populations.
Without that, productivity (average age in population is now 40) would drop precipitously. We are responsible for our own need to flood our countries with cultures we probably never would have,
except for these circumstances.

[Rhino]

I'm not sure that PhD = genius though....

A PhD actually just implies that an individual has a great deal of depth
in a very very narrow field, not necessarily that he/she is brilliant or
creative. In other words, they may have an exhaustive knowledge about
something very specific but I'm not sure if it actually proves they've
discovered something that is both new AND significant. For example, a
biologist might have discovered the real reason that the 17 year cicada
has a 17 year cycle but that may not actually help anyone have a better
life.

Bell, Edison, Tesla, and the Wright brothers didn't have PhDs yet they
were arguably brilliant and *did* discover new and useful things that
changed our lives.

--
Rhino

[shawn]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:45:00 -0500, Rhino

It's been challenged for years just how brilliant Edison was on a
technical level. What he excelled at was the business side and
overseeing the technical people that took a good idea and made it into
something that could actually be sold. Something that Tesla could have
used as he was truly brilliant at coming up with great ideas but no so
accomplished at turning those ideas into a commercially successful
product.

[Adam H. Kerman]

RichA <rande...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, 6 January 2022 at 09:56:04 UTC-5, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
>>declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.

>>He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.

>>It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!

>>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801

>He's right.

He's wrong that pets substituted for children.

>Western countries have very low birthrates, . . .

I'm not discussing the demographics, but the reason the Pope claims is
responsible for the declining birth rate.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Rhino <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>On 2022-01-06 4:10 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Rhino <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>>>On 2022-01-06 9:56 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>>>Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
>>>>declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.

>>>>He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.

>>>>It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!

>>>>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801

>>>And yet the Pope is correct in pointing out that many countries are not
>>>producing children at the replacement rate, roughly 2.1 children per
>>>couple, and that those countries are inevitably going to see significant
>>>population shrinkage. . . .

>>Yes, that's a demographic observation he's made. He is absolutely not
>>correct that people own pets as a substitute for having children, 'cuz
>>you know, families with children own pets and everyone with a pet has a
>>pet because he wants the pet for its own sake without regard to
>>reproducing.

>I know lots of people that refer to their pets as their "fur babies" and
>identify themselves as the pet's "parents".

If that's how they truly feel, then it's better for the human race that
they didn't spawn.

>. . .

[shawn]

It's been observed for years that as general health of the population
improves and, more to the point, the likelihood of children surviving
to adult hood the lower the population rate. This has happened in the
USA and it has been shown to be happening in African countries as
well. Nothing to do with pet adoption unless one assumes that some
people think of children as pets. It's all to do with people wanting
to see their kids live to be adults and if their kids are more likely
to die while still children then they tend to have more kids. Just
playing the odds.

[Rhino]

On 2022-01-06 6:24 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:05:12 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> These countries will either "shrink" (again, in terms of population) as
>> they age, making ever-increasing demands on the young to care for the
>> old, or have to make up deficits by immigration - and that's not a
>> realistic option for truly xenophobic societies like Japan. It's already
>> creating tensions even in countries that have historically been
>> accepting of immigration like Canada and the US.
>>
> Canada would be handling immigration just fine except for the fact
> that Trudeau has hugely raised the number of immigrants allowed into
> Canada since his father's day and on top of that scrapped the old
> policy that used to say 'no more than 10% from any one country' to the
> present situation where he's accepting 30-35% from the Peoples'
> Republic of China (which is problematic in itself) and 20-25% from
> India. And I very much do think the present immigration rate is
> economically unsustainable.
>

Yet the Liberals continue to increase immigration levels. Toronto was
already majority non-white in the mid-90s. How much longer till most of
the country has more native Mandarin- or Hindi-speakers than native
English- or French-speakers? How much longer is this country going to
resemble what we grew up in?

> Let's be clear - Hong Kong originated the world's first "foreign buyer
> tax" at a rate of 15% (later raised to 30%) and it was PRIMARILY aimed
> at the PRC. Hong Kong papers used to be very plain that there was a
> cultural difference between Mainlanders and the Overseas Chinese
> (chiefly HK, Singapore and North America) that was rankling the local
> population and that that existed both before anc since 1997 - and was
> a big part in the 15% tax becoming 30%.
>

If that hasn't been rolled back yet, I expect it will be in due course
given the way China has (de facto) abrogated the 50 year treaty with the
UK.... China is, for all intents and purposes, indisputably in charge in
Hong Kong now.

> Indians tend to blend in more and are much more diverse than 50 years
> ago when Indian immigrants used to mean Sikhs almost entirely.

Canada has become what it is largely through immigration; there's no
doubt about that. I just don't know how this country will feel in 50
years, not that there's a lot of likelihood that I'll still be here to
experience it.

--
Rhino

[shawn]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:56:07 -0500, Rhino
<no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>On 2022-01-06 6:24 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:05:12 -0500, Rhino
>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>> These countries will either "shrink" (again, in terms of population) as
>>> they age, making ever-increasing demands on the young to care for the
>>> old, or have to make up deficits by immigration - and that's not a
>>> realistic option for truly xenophobic societies like Japan. It's already
>>> creating tensions even in countries that have historically been
>>> accepting of immigration like Canada and the US.
>>>
>> Canada would be handling immigration just fine except for the fact
>> that Trudeau has hugely raised the number of immigrants allowed into
>> Canada since his father's day and on top of that scrapped the old
>> policy that used to say 'no more than 10% from any one country' to the
>> present situation where he's accepting 30-35% from the Peoples'
>> Republic of China (which is problematic in itself) and 20-25% from
>> India. And I very much do think the present immigration rate is
>> economically unsustainable.
>>
>Yet the Liberals continue to increase immigration levels. Toronto was
>already majority non-white in the mid-90s. How much longer till most of
>the country has more native Mandarin- or Hindi-speakers than native
>English- or French-speakers? How much longer is this country going to
>resemble what we grew up in?

It's never going to end up resembling what it was when you were
growing up as places change. The places I grew up have changed quite a
bit from when I was young man even if the racial makeup is much the
same. What will matter for Canada (and much of the USA) is whether the
immigrants will tend to keep to themselves and immigrants like solely
speaking their native language or will them mix in with the rest of
the population and adopt much of the culture and language of each
country.

I don't know how it is in Canada but in the USA while some of the
parents don't really adopt the culture or even learn much English. The
kids tend to become Americans both adopting much of the culture of the
USA and learning the language. So that by the time you go through two
or three generations the kids might still learn their grand parents
native language and learn about their culture they still consider the
USA their home. I would hope something similar happens in Canada with
the people who actually immigrate to Canada and don't just buy
property there.

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:45:21 -0500, Rhino
<no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>Did you watch the video at the link I provided in my first post to this
>thread? There are also some NEGATIVE consequences to the population
>shrinkage, like who is going to pay to care for you in your old age....
>
>It's not a complete win-win-win-win if populations decline although
>there certainly would be SOME positives to go with the negatives, as
>you've pointed out.
>

On the other hand, how does any of that help if those you import come
from a totally different culture? If retaining your country's culture
matters to you you should focus on immigration from similar countries
right? Or at least those with similar values.

I get REAL annoyed with politicians who say 'we're not a real country
anyway' and we're a "community of communities' since we DO have
national values which you should not come to our country if you're not
willing to be part of that.

If you want to contribute to building our country that's fine but if
you come expecting to continue the sort of inter-ethnic violence that
was typical of your homeland then maybe just maybe the US and Canada
aren't the places for you. And I know plenty of people who get along
just fine with folks they probably wouldn't have wanted anything to do
with "back in the old country" (I play chess and organize tournaments
and there are all sorts of people who come from countries (especially
pre 1991) which DIDN'T "play nice with each other")

[chromebook test]

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 9:56:04 AM UTC-5, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Pope Francis, of all people, is taking couples to task in countries with
> declining birth rates for not having children, or just having one child.
>
> He's blaming people for choosing to have pets instead of children.
>
> It doesn't work like that! It doesn't work like that at all!
>
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59884801

The pope can't even translate the Hebrew bible accurately. To illustrate, read the 4th commandment in the Catholic bible and compare with the protestant King James version.




TAGS: old fuckers with funny hats who wear dresses and wonder why homosexuality is rampant in the church

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:49:25 -0500, shawn
<nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>>Bell, Edison, Tesla, and the Wright brothers didn't have PhDs yet they
>>were arguably brilliant and *did* discover new and useful things that
>>changed our lives.
>
>It's been challenged for years just how brilliant Edison was on a
>technical level. What he excelled at was the business side and
>overseeing the technical people that took a good idea and made it into
>something that could actually be sold. Something that Tesla could have
>used as he was truly brilliant at coming up with great ideas but no so
>accomplished at turning those ideas into a commercially successful
>product.

And I never realized that Alexander Graham Bell was interest in
aviation until I visited his museum in Baddeck, Cape Breton, Nova
Scotia. I knew he was interested in deafness and of course phones but
never aviation before that trip.

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 02:10:23 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>>Western countries have very low birthrates, . . .
>
>I'm not discussing the demographics, but the reason the Pope claims is
>responsible for the declining birth rate.

Fair enough but surely that must be correlated to the fact that when
my grandfather was my present age I was a college sophomore (and was
his oldest but not his only grandchild) whereas I won't be a
grandfather for another 4 months.

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:56:07 -0500, Rhino
<no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>Yet the Liberals continue to increase immigration levels. Toronto was
>already majority non-white in the mid-90s. How much longer till most of
>the country has more native Mandarin- or Hindi-speakers than native
>English- or French-speakers? How much longer is this country going to
>resemble what we grew up in?

While regulars here will know that I am decidedly NOT a fan of the
Peoples' Republic of China and abhor nearly everything they stand for
(and therefore loathe the idea that they are by far the largest source
of immigrants to Canada to the extent that my local Toastmasters club
is as much an advanced ESL training center as anything else) there are
only 46 million "Overseas Chinese" WORLDWIDE which is not hugely more
than the entire population of Canada so I'm not nearly as skeptical as
you are on the 1st language front.

>> Let's be clear - Hong Kong originated the world's first "foreign buyer
>> tax" at a rate of 15% (later raised to 30%) and it was PRIMARILY aimed
>> at the PRC. Hong Kong papers used to be very plain that there was a
>> cultural difference between Mainlanders and the Overseas Chinese
>> (chiefly HK, Singapore and North America) that was rankling the local
>> population and that that existed both before anc since 1997 - and was
>> a big part in the 15% tax becoming 30%.
>>
>If that hasn't been rolled back yet, I expect it will be in due course
>given the way China has (de facto) abrogated the 50 year treaty with the
>UK.... China is, for all intents and purposes, indisputably in charge in
>Hong Kong now.

Perhaps - but Hong Kong initiated the foreign buyers tax in 2013 not
1993.

>> Indians tend to blend in more and are much more diverse than 50 years
>> ago when Indian immigrants used to mean Sikhs almost entirely.
>
>Canada has become what it is largely through immigration; there's no
>doubt about that. I just don't know how this country will feel in 50
>years, not that there's a lot of likelihood that I'll still be here to
>experience it.

I have no particular problem with immigration to Canada - but do feel
the old policy of 'no more than 10% from a single country' mitigated a
lot of the social evils of immigration particularly the growth of
ethnic ghettoes like Richmond BC and Dundas Street West and Richmond
Hill (both of which are Toronto suburbs) When you have situations
where merchants in those locations end usage of English in store
signage that to me says something negative about their willingness to
be part of the overall community. (I'm NOT talking about Chinese
appearing on store signs, I'm talking about Chinese being the ONLY
language on store signs)

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 22:49:53 -0500, shawn
<nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>I don't know how it is in Canada but in the USA while some of the
>parents don't really adopt the culture or even learn much English. The
>kids tend to become Americans both adopting much of the culture of the
>USA and learning the language. So that by the time you go through two
>or three generations the kids might still learn their grand parents
>native language and learn about their culture they still consider the
>USA their home. I would hope something similar happens in Canada with
>the people who actually immigrate to Canada and don't just buy
>property there.

I would hope so too but at the same time I do expect them to pay their
fair share of taxes and when we're talking "astronaut families" where
the main breadwinner lives overseas - and under Canadian law is
required to pay Canadian taxes though in many cases doesn't and aren't
prosecuted for tax evasion.

And where a lot of the "astronaut breadwinners" live in an aggressive
totalitarian regime that engages in widespread theft of intellectual
property, conducts surveillances on their emigres in THIS country and
interferes in OUR elections then to me that's not only problematic but
DAMNED problematic and doesn't give me a lot of hope that these folks
are going to change their ways going forward. Because China is an
existential threat to the United States and Canada in a far more
sophisticated way than the Soviet Union ever was.

[shawn]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 22:22:47 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
wrote:

We are getting a bit of that here in the metro Atlanta area except
it's with a few Korean places. Most have English and Korean signs but
a few have just Korean signs up. Something I don't care for as it
suggests that they have no interest in becoming part of the melting
pot that is supposed to be America but instead want to remain at least
somewhat isolated.

[Rhino]

I've heard that too, although I don't know if there's universal
agreement on that yet. People like that have a place in the scheme of
things too, arguably an extremely important place but that's a side
issue: who actually came up with the good ideas that Edison hired people
to improve upon? If it was Edison himself, he should get huge credit for
that aspect of it over and above how he developed it.

> Something that Tesla could have
> used as he was truly brilliant at coming up with great ideas but no so
> accomplished at turning those ideas into a commercially successful
> product.

Indeed. But it doesn't diminish the credit he should get for coming up
with great ideas.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

On 2022-01-07 12:58 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:45:21 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> Did you watch the video at the link I provided in my first post to this
>> thread? There are also some NEGATIVE consequences to the population
>> shrinkage, like who is going to pay to care for you in your old age....
>>
>> It's not a complete win-win-win-win if populations decline although
>> there certainly would be SOME positives to go with the negatives, as
>> you've pointed out.
>>
> On the other hand, how does any of that help if those you import come
> from a totally different culture? If retaining your country's culture
> matters to you you should focus on immigration from similar countries
> right? Or at least those with similar values.
>

For some definition of "similar", although I expect there are a lot of
possible definitions, each of which would be attractive to *someone*.

Aside from the citizens of the host country having some desire to retain
the existing culture, you also have to tangle with the fact that the
immigrants will want to retain some significant part of THEIR cultures.
But how much? I think most of them are realistic enough to know that the
host country probably speaks a different language and will not have much
interest in accommodating immigrants by learning their languages or
providing services in those languages; therefore, the immigrant will
need to develop some fluency in the host country's language. But will
they have to give up their religion? Or their habits of dress (to the
extent the climate allows them to retain their original clothing, of
course)? Will they have to give up their cultural practices?

> I get REAL annoyed with politicians who say 'we're not a real country
> anyway' and we're a "community of communities' since we DO have
> national values which you should not come to our country if you're not
> willing to be part of that.
>

What ARE the national values of Canada and the US that we need
immigrants to adhere to? Which ones must we insist on and which ones can
we let them slide on? I am speaking rhetorically of course but it's
something our politicians should probably be trying to enforce. Yet I
don't see much effort to even agree on what those national values are. I
expect it's because our politicians are far too sensitive to the
consequences on their electoral fortunes: there's an obvious risk of
being deemed a racist to even ask those questions. Perhaps we need to
create an organization separate from the political ones that can explore
these matters, gather data and offer a report on the matter. Perhaps a
massive poll could be constructed allowing each citizen of the country a
voice in saying what they individually need immigrants to be in order to
be welcome in our society?

> If you want to contribute to building our country that's fine but if
> you come expecting to continue the sort of inter-ethnic violence that
> was typical of your homeland then maybe just maybe the US and Canada
> aren't the places for you. And I know plenty of people who get along
> just fine with folks they probably wouldn't have wanted anything to do
> with "back in the old country" (I play chess and organize tournaments
> and there are all sorts of people who come from countries (especially
> pre 1991) which DIDN'T "play nice with each other")

Exactly so. I well remember one guy I met who was originally from India
who said that here in Canada he had so much more friendly contact with
Muslims than he'd ever had back in India. There are a great many Muslims
in India that chose to stay there rather than moving to Pakistan after
the partition in 1947 so I'm not sure how a (presumably Hindu) Indian
would have no contact with Muslims in India. Perhaps they self-segregate
to a very large extent?

Yet during the Partition of India, somewhere between 200,000 and 2
million people DIED as the various major communities fought with each
other: Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims all fought one another for many months
in an event that apparently still sears the memories of all the
communities involved.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

I think it is largely the same here but there are certainly some
exceptions. For example, I once had an ethnically Greek colleague when I
worked in Toronto and she told me about the Greek enclave in the city
where many of the residents were senior citizens who had been brought
over by their children. The seniors had access to everything they needed
in Greek - doctors, lawyers, retail stores - all staffed by their fellow
Greeks and had no need to learn English. The younger people, of course,
DID learn English but their parents/grandparents had no need to do so. I
feel sure you have things like that in the US too. But that sort of
thing must surely be the exception rather than the rule.

>>> Let's be clear - Hong Kong originated the world's first "foreign buyer
>>> tax" at a rate of 15% (later raised to 30%) and it was PRIMARILY aimed
>>> at the PRC. Hong Kong papers used to be very plain that there was a
>>> cultural difference between Mainlanders and the Overseas Chinese
>>> (chiefly HK, Singapore and North America) that was rankling the local
>>> population and that that existed both before anc since 1997 - and was
>>> a big part in the 15% tax becoming 30%.
>>>
>> If that hasn't been rolled back yet, I expect it will be in due course
>> given the way China has (de facto) abrogated the 50 year treaty with the
>> UK.... China is, for all intents and purposes, indisputably in charge in
>> Hong Kong now.
>>
>>> Indians tend to blend in more and are much more diverse than 50 years
>>> ago when Indian immigrants used to mean Sikhs almost entirely.
>>
>> Canada has become what it is largely through immigration; there's no
>> doubt about that. I just don't know how this country will feel in 50
>> years, not that there's a lot of likelihood that I'll still be here to
>> experience it.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

I've never taken it terribly seriously. I've always taken that as merely
a colourful way of them saying that they dearly love their pets, nothing
more, and I don't have any problem with that. If there is more to it
than that and they really think that their pets are "children" akin to
human children, then I'd be inclined to think they needed some help from
a mental health professional....


--
Rhino

[Rhino]

The PRC wasn't quite so overtly powerful in Hong Kong then.

>>> Indians tend to blend in more and are much more diverse than 50 years
>>> ago when Indian immigrants used to mean Sikhs almost entirely.
>>
>> Canada has become what it is largely through immigration; there's no
>> doubt about that. I just don't know how this country will feel in 50
>> years, not that there's a lot of likelihood that I'll still be here to
>> experience it.
>
> I have no particular problem with immigration to Canada - but do feel
> the old policy of 'no more than 10% from a single country' mitigated a
> lot of the social evils of immigration particularly the growth of
> ethnic ghettoes like Richmond BC and Dundas Street West and Richmond
> Hill (both of which are Toronto suburbs) When you have situations
> where merchants in those locations end usage of English in store
> signage that to me says something negative about their willingness to
> be part of the overall community. (I'm NOT talking about Chinese
> appearing on store signs, I'm talking about Chinese being the ONLY
> language on store signs)
>

I have a problem with stores operating without English (or French)
signage too. I remember passing a store in London (Ontario) that had
signage in Arabic and it lacked much of a display window so I have no
earthly idea what it sold or what service it provided. The sign could
literally have said "Death to the infidels!" and I would never have known.

I remember an entire mall in Toronto near where I worked that had all
its signage in Chinese, except the one that identified the mall, which
was in English. It was disquieting to see because it seemed to be saying
that this mall was reserved for Chinese people (or at least people who
could read Chinese) and English speakers weren't particularly welcome. I
was actually in that mall with a group of Chinese people and we had a
meal in one of the fast food places in the mall; as I recall, the menu
was entirely in Chinese too. I can't handle chopsticks, never having
learned, so I don't recall how I got a fork and knife; one of the people
I was with must have requested them for me because I don't recall asking
the staff.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

I remember a prof that explained that children were the welfare system
in poor countries like India. In the absence, at least then, of a
"social safety net", poor people looked to their children to care for
them when they got old. If child mortality was high, as it still was
when I was taking that course (and it might well still be very high),
you had to have a lot of children to be sure that at least one or two
would survive to adulthood to care for you when you became elderly.

I have very little idea of life in India today so I don't know what the
infant mortality rate is like now or what kind of welfare system they
have. However, I have heard projections from Indian videos that predict
their population will overtake China's fairly soon and continue to climb
while China is already looking at a decline in their population. One
prediction that I mentioned elsewhere in the thread predicted a Chinese
population of only 700 million by some point in this century, which is
HALF of the current population. (Opening a funeral/cemetery/crematorium
business in China might be a wise investment!) The projections are so
concerning to the Chinese government that they abandoned the famous One
Child Policy a few years back to encourage families to have two
children; recently, they practically *demanded* that families start
having THREE children. (Apparently, there is a LOT of pushback to that
by the Chinese who have serious economic objections to the idea.)

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

I remember hearing about that long ago and I've never been to the
Maritimes at all, let alone Baddeck ;-)

Bell was also very interested in boating as I recall, especially
hydrofoils. Wikipedia says he also had a deep interest in the (then)
emerging science of heredity, although he died in 1922 well before DNA
had been discovered.

--
Rhino

[anim8rfsk]

That’s interesting. They sort of need a sign under the main sign saying
WELCOME GRINGOS!!

Or possibly KEEP OUT WHITE EYES whichever their intent is.

A large group of friends from El Salvador took me to their favorite Chinese
restaurant where I was the only one that spoke English or at least
defaulted to it. It’s interesting to watch people speaking to each other
one in Chinese and the other in English with the assurance that neither of
them has the slightest idea what the other is saying. After a while of this
the patriarch grabbed away the menus and said FEED US! The staff and
brought a series of Lazy Susan’s of various mystery dishes until we
couldn’t eat anymore and staggered home. Luckily I can use chopsticks. :-)

--
“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

[suzeeq]

They did, and lived in different areas.

> Yet during the Partition of India, somewhere between 200,000 and 2
> million people DIED as the various major communities fought with each
> other: Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims all fought one another for many months
> in an event that apparently still sears the memories of all the
> communities involved.
>

It was pretty brutal I think.

[Rhino]

As far as I'm concerned, not having any English signage in the
English-speaking part of Canada definitely means the latter.

Mind you, even English language signage can be cryptic. I remember when
one existing store got a major makeover. It had previously been a
retailer of consumer electronics but transformed into a new outfit. It
was utterly impossible to tell what they did or sold and the only clue
was a sign that said "MEC" - and nothing else. I had no earthly idea
what MEC was because the acronym was never explained. I toyed with the
idea of simply parking in the lot and walking in the front door but I
would have felt silly if I'd stepped in to find it was a well-known
seller of something I'd never buy in a million years so I didn't. It
wasn't until a few years later that I learned it stood for Mountain
Equipment Coop, a store I might actually have patronized.

> A large group of friends from El Salvador took me to their favorite Chinese
> restaurant where I was the only one that spoke English or at least
> defaulted to it. It’s interesting to watch people speaking to each other
> one in Chinese and the other in English with the assurance that neither of
> them has the slightest idea what the other is saying. After a while of this
> the patriarch grabbed away the menus and said FEED US! The staff and
> brought a series of Lazy Susan’s of various mystery dishes until we
> couldn’t eat anymore and staggered home. Luckily I can use chopsticks. :-)
>

I'm sure it's possible to learn to use chopsticks, even for someone of
my advanced years, so I suppose if I looked I could find instructions on
YouTube or something. Of course when I went to the Chinese mall in
Toronto, there was no internet yet so no YouTube either. I've been in
the odd Chinese restaurant since but never had trouble communicating
with the staff to ask for Western cutlery so I've never been strongly
incentivized to dig up a video.

Many of the non-Chinese people I've gone into Chinese restaurants with
*could* use chopsticks quite proficiently. I wonder where they learned?


--
Rhino

[The Horny Goat]

Correct on all counts and if you are ever in Cape Breton I would
definitely not pass up Baddeck. My kids still remember their lobster
dinner there.... (this was 2004 but lobster dinners are something of a
cottage industry in Cape Breton)

[anim8rfsk]

I learned on vacation in Hawaii, as a teenager, from the Asian son of
friends of my parents who was a couple years younger than me, when we all
went out to dinner. I don’t know if the secret is learning young, or from
a native user, or what but under those circumstances I picked it up
effortlessly.

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:21:21 -0500, Rhino
<no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>> That’s interesting. They sort of need a sign under the main sign saying
>> WELCOME GRINGOS!!
>>
>> Or possibly KEEP OUT WHITE EYES whichever their intent is.
>>
>As far as I'm concerned, not having any English signage in the
>English-speaking part of Canada definitely means the latter.

100% in agreement

>I'm sure it's possible to learn to use chopsticks, even for someone of
>my advanced years, so I suppose if I looked I could find instructions on
>YouTube or something. Of course when I went to the Chinese mall in
>Toronto, there was no internet yet so no YouTube either. I've been in
>the odd Chinese restaurant since but never had trouble communicating
>with the staff to ask for Western cutlery so I've never been strongly
>incentivized to dig up a video.
>
>Many of the non-Chinese people I've gone into Chinese restaurants with
>*could* use chopsticks quite proficiently. I wonder where they learned?

I've even been in Chinese restaurants where they had place mats
showing how to use chopstick.....I used them all the time in Hong Kong
though I never got good at it and mostly use the form in North
America.

[Rhino]

On 2022-01-07 6:53 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:21:21 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>

>>> That’s interesting. They sort of need a sign under the main sign saying

I assume that's a typo for "fork". I just don't see anyone handling food
with sheet of 8.5 x 11 paper.... ;-)

> in North America.

I can see a place like Hong Kong, which must get a lot of tourists,
having place mats explaining how to use chopsticks. Mind you, I don't
recall ever seeing anything like that a any Chinese restaurant here
where much of the clientele will not be from a part of the world where
chopsticks are routine. No demand for it, I suppose: everyone there
either already knows how to use them or doesn't care to learn and will
ask for a fork....

--
Rhino

[anim8rfsk]

The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:21:21 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>

>>> That’s interesting. They sort of need a sign under the main sign saying

I pick the tiny peas and carrot cubes out of the fried rice individually
just to show off.

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 21:08:25 -0500, Rhino
<no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>I can see a place like Hong Kong, which must get a lot of tourists,
>having place mats explaining how to use chopsticks. Mind you, I don't
>recall ever seeing anything like that a any Chinese restaurant here
>where much of the clientele will not be from a part of the world where
>chopsticks are routine. No demand for it, I suppose: everyone there
>either already knows how to use them or doesn't care to learn and will
>ask for a fork....

I would expect there's some kind of 'racial profiling' between those
who get the instructional placemet and those who don't.

[shawn]

On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 22:44:25 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
wrote:

I've heard of that before like some Chinese places handing out menus
to the Caucasian customers while the Chinese customers were ordering
without menus. Also the things they were ordering weren't on the menus
given to the Caucasian customers.

[Ed Stasiak]

> shawn
> > Rhino

> >
> >I'm not sure that is particularly important. I suspect that most
> >innovation comes from a handful of people, often working individually,
> >at least in the early stages. I'm thinking of the Bell, Edison, Tesla
> >and the Wright brothers of the world who did at least their initial
> >research pretty much by themselves in a small workshop. Sure, additional
> >bodies may get used to refine an innovation or figure out how to make it

> >more economically but the basic discovery tends to be a one- or
> >two-person effort.
>
> That's ignoring the fact that if you have 7 billion people (randomly
> selected) versus 1 billion people (also randomly selected) the
> statistics suggest there will be more of those innovative people that
> push technology like Tesla or Bell in the 7 billion population.

A smaller, richer population with a better standard of living will be
a better educated population, thus leading to more technological
developments.

Most innovations don't spring from the minds of blue-collar workers
pulling endless over-time for minimum wage, plus the overwhelming
majority of Noble laureates for example, have been Europeans (with
Japan at 7th place, India 19th and China 23rd),

More people ≠ a better world.

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 07:44:11 -0500, shawn
<nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>>>I can see a place like Hong Kong, which must get a lot of tourists,
>>>having place mats explaining how to use chopsticks. Mind you, I don't
>>>recall ever seeing anything like that a any Chinese restaurant here
>>>where much of the clientele will not be from a part of the world where
>>>chopsticks are routine. No demand for it, I suppose: everyone there
>>>either already knows how to use them or doesn't care to learn and will
>>>ask for a fork....
>>
>>I would expect there's some kind of 'racial profiling' between those
>>who get the instructional placemet and those who don't.
>
>I've heard of that before like some Chinese places handing out menus
>to the Caucasian customers while the Chinese customers were ordering
>without menus. Also the things they were ordering weren't on the menus
>given to the Caucasian customers.

There's a Chinese diner fairly close to my store's former location I
like to go to a couple of times a month and I've seen it both ways.
Last time I ordered there I didn't use a menu to order so I tend to
think whether or not a menu is given depends on whether one is a
regular. Had I hesitated in order I have no doubt I would have
received a menu.

[Adam H. Kerman]

anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:

>>>. . .

>>I've even been in Chinese restaurants where they had place mats
>>showing how to use chopstick.....I used them all the time in Hong Kong
>>though I never got good at it and mostly use the form in North
>>America.

>I pick the tiny peas and carrot cubes out of the fried rice individually
>just to show off.

Could you perform surgery like on Royal Pains?

[anim8rfsk]

Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

Lol, and do what, pick buckshot out of somebody’s tush?
Little peas and carrot cubes are very lightweight and a little bit soft. I
think it would be damn hard to pick up say a BB with chopsticks.
On the other hand I could probably do brain surgery on Jill given that the
whole things no bigger than a BB and you just would want to swap it out for
a new one.

[Micky DuPree]

shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:

> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:45:00 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>> On 2022-01-06 8:09 PM, shawn wrote:

>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:01:20 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>>>> On 2022-01-06 7:13 PM, shawn wrote:

>>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:51:36 -0500, Rhino
>>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>>>>>> On 2022-01-06 6:14 PM, shawn wrote:

>>>>>>> A decreasing population also brings with it deflation hitting
>>>>>>> everything from grocery items to homes to stocks.

It's probably the single most effective thing we can do to fight climate
change (but no, it's not enough on its own at this rate).

>>>>>> I remember my mother telling me in the late 70s/early 80s when we
>>>>>> had a lot of inflation that if I thought this was bad to hope
>>>>>> that I never had to live through a major DEFLATION because it was
>>>>>> much worse.

Birthrate decrease in the developed nations isn't happening fast enough
to cause another Great Depression, at least not on its own.

>>>>>>> Also there's the issue of the speed of technological development
>>>>>>> being impacted by having fewer people around meaning less people
>>>>>>> who can make the sort of technological breakthroughs that we
>>>>>>> have become used to.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> I'm not sure that is particularly important. I suspect that most
>>>>>> innovation comes from a handful of people, often working
>>>>>> individually, at least in the early stages. I'm thinking of the
>>>>>> Bell, Edison, Tesla and the Wright brothers of the world who did
>>>>>> at least their initial research pretty much by themselves in a
>>>>>> small workshop. Sure, additional bodies may get used to refine
>>>>>> an innovation or figure out how to make it more economically but
>>>>>> the basic discovery tends to be a one- or two-person effort.

Those days are mostly gone. Even if one or two people do most of the
heavy lifting, it's not without a significant support system, or a
number of people who have come before them.

>>>>> That's ignoring the fact that if you have 7 billion people
>>>>> (randomly selected) versus 1 billion people (also randomly
>>>>> selected) the statistics suggest there will be more of those
>>>>> innovative people that push technology like Tesla or Bell in the 7
>>>>> billion population.
>>>>

>>>> You're assuming that "genius" (for want of a better term) is always
>>>> present in the exact same percentage of the population regardless
>>>> of the size of the population and no other factors come into play
>>>> in producing geniuses.

He did say "randomly selected," and I'd probably agree with that, but
they're never selected randomly or given the same underlying education.

>>>> I'm not sure either assumption is supportable. Maybe there are more
>>>> geniuses in societies that value creativity than in ones that
>>>> discourage it. Perhaps economics is a factor with materially
>>>> wealthy countries having more geniuses than very poor ones. Etc.
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>> And you are assuming otherwise. I won't discount the value in
>>> economics playing a factor. Certainly we an see that in the USA
>>> versus China of the pre-2000s. Though now we see China starting to
>>> turn that around with more and more PhDs graduating each year and
>>> they are producing more improvements in technology each year. I've
>>> seen some discussion of them producing more patents than the USA
>>> which isn't that surprising given their population advantage but
>>> seeing the change in the last few decades suggests that the
>>> economics play a huge advantage in allowing the brightest to shine.

Considering that the production of research-level scientists involves
educational tracking going back as far as the 7th grade, it's worth
asking if the U.S. is truly dedicated to investing in its best and
brightest across the board.

>>> Neither one of us can prove our points but it is my assumption that
>>> the spread of genius/bright individuals is going to be somewhat even
>>> among different populations. So China would have more of those
>>> brightest individuals than the USA, but would be held back by the
>>> economy and the culture.
>>

>> I'm not sure that PhD = genius though....

It doesn't necessarily equate, but science and engineering have advanced
to a point where it's hard to push the boundaries of knowledge without
putting in a lot more time and effort than used to be required just to
get up to speed on what has come before in a field. Access to that kind
of background education is not equally spread across the population.

>> A PhD actually just implies that an individual has a great deal of
>> depth in a very very narrow field, not necessarily that he/she is
>> brilliant or creative.

In science and engineering, there's also the requirement of doing
original research for one's thesis. Just being able to absorb material
and regurgitate it on a test doesn't necessarily mean that you have the
temperament to do research.

>> In other words, they may have an exhaustive knowledge about something
>> very specific but I'm not sure if it actually proves they've
>> discovered something that is both new AND significant.

They do typically have to come up with something new to get the PhD. It
is not generally required, though, that the findings be applicable to
the betterment of people's daily lives.

>> For example, a biologist might have discovered the real reason that
>> the 17 year cicada has a 17 year cycle but that may not actually help
>> anyone have a better life.

Nevertheless, basic research tends to pay its own way in the long run.

>> Bell, Edison, Tesla, and the Wright brothers didn't have PhDs yet
>> they were arguably brilliant and *did* discover new and useful things
>> that changed our lives.

While it's possible for the home-based builder or experimenter to
develop a new killer app or the like, there are some fields where you
need more education or at least the support system that comes with more
education than the gentleman scientist or self-educated engineer of the
old days had. One of the people who did the early work on the mRNA
vaccine technology struggled for years to get the grant money she needed
to get lab space to do her work. Without the PhD, she would have gotten
nothing, and you don't do that kind of work in your garage. You need
more than a high-school education to understand what has come before in
the field, and you need more than a bachelor's degree to demonstrate
that you're capable of doing research and are therefore worthy of the
funding and the lab space to do advanced experimental work.

> It's been challenged for years just how brilliant Edison was on a
> technical level. What he excelled at was the business side and
> overseeing the technical people that took a good idea and made it into
> something that could actually be sold. Something that Tesla could have
> used as he was truly brilliant at coming up with great ideas but no so
> accomplished at turning those ideas into a commercially successful
> product.

When it comes to market share, always bet on the business guy, not the
technical guy.

-Micky

[Micky DuPree]

shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:

> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 22:22:47 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> wrote:

>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:56:07 -0500, Rhino
>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>>> Yet the Liberals continue to increase immigration levels. Toronto
>>> was already majority non-white in the mid-90s. How much longer till
>>> most of the country has more native Mandarin- or Hindi-speakers than
>>> native English- or French-speakers? How much longer is this country
>>> going to resemble what we grew up in?

As pointed out elsewhere, the native-born children of immigrants tend to
grow up bilingual. Their native-born grandchildren are usually
proficient only in the language of the country of their birth. It's
something that the immigrant grandparents often moan about (preferring
that the grandchildren retain the bilingual proficiency of their
parents), but it's a pattern repeated almost everywhere there is
immigration.

>> While regulars here will know that I am decidedly NOT a fan of the
>> Peoples' Republic of China and abhor nearly everything they stand for
>> (and therefore loathe the idea that they are by far the largest
>> source of immigrants to Canada to the extent that my local
>> Toastmasters club is as much an advanced ESL training center as
>> anything else) there are only 46 million "Overseas Chinese" WORLDWIDE
>> which is not hugely more than the entire population of Canada so I'm
>> not nearly as skeptical as you are on the 1st language front.

So there is interest among immigrants in learning English.

>> I have no particular problem with immigration to Canada - but do feel
>> the old policy of 'no more than 10% from a single country' mitigated
>> a lot of the social evils of immigration particularly the growth of
>> ethnic ghettoes like Richmond BC and Dundas Street West and Richmond
>> Hill (both of which are Toronto suburbs)

It's an interesting way to discourage immigration from the most populous
nations, since you'd be letting in the same number of people from
Ireland (pop. around 6.6 million) as you would from China (pop. around
1.4 billion).

>> When you have situations where merchants in those locations end usage
>> of English in store signage that to me says something negative about
>> their willingness to be part of the overall community. (I'm NOT
>> talking about Chinese appearing on store signs, I'm talking about
>> Chinese being the ONLY language on store signs)

Did Merchant A used to have both English and Chinese on the signs and
then switched to only Chinese? Or did newly immigrated Merchant B move
into the neighborhood and began doing business with Chinese-only
signage?

> We are getting a bit of that here in the metro Atlanta area except
> it's with a few Korean places. Most have English and Korean signs but
> a few have just Korean signs up. Something I don't care for as it
> suggests that they have no interest in becoming part of the melting
> pot that is supposed to be America but instead want to remain at least
> somewhat isolated.

My first guess is that no one moves to the U.S. or Canada and opens a
business with the desire to never take a dollar from the native-born.
My expectation, though, is that someone might move to the U.S. and open
a business without (yet) being proficient in English, and does not (yet)
have a bilingual child who is capable of doing the English signage for
them. This also means that they do not (yet) have a bilingual child who
is able to wait upon the English-only customers, because once you put up
the sign with English on it, you're likely to attract customers that
will need a salesperson who is reasonably proficient in English. That's
not the same thing as hoping never to have English-only customers.

The U.S. already has pockets of self-isolating cultures, such as the
Amish and the Mennonites, but interestingly, those don't produce similar
negative responses from the mainstream.

-Micky

[Micky DuPree]

shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:

> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:56:07 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>> On 2022-01-06 6:24 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:

>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:05:12 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:

>>>> These countries will either "shrink" (again, in terms of
>>>> population) as they age, making ever-increasing demands on the
>>>> young to care for the old, or have to make up deficits by
>>>> immigration - and that's not a realistic option for truly
>>>> xenophobic societies like Japan.

In my direct experience, the care of parents in their old age falls
almost exclusively to one child even if there are several children. So
it's not going to be all that different for famillies with at least one
child even if the average family size has shrunk. The public policy
question is going to be how to care for the childless. As a rule, they
have more resources to pay for care (having sunk none into raising
children), but there will always be exceptions that will need to be
addressed. Something that may offset some of the larger expenditures of
old age is scientific advancements in the prevention and treatment of
cancer and dementia.

>> Yet the Liberals continue to increase immigration levels. Toronto was
>> already majority non-white in the mid-90s. How much longer till most
>> of the country has more native Mandarin- or Hindi-speakers than
>> native English- or French-speakers? How much longer is this country
>> going to resemble what we grew up in?

You're not worried about white immigrants even if they don't speak
English?

> I don't know how it is in Canada but in the USA while some of the
> parents don't really adopt the culture or even learn much English. The
> kids tend to become Americans both adopting much of the culture of the
> USA and learning the language.

It has to do with the linguistic "plasticity" of the young brain.
Before around puberty, kids will just soak up a new language by simple
exposure. After puberty, it's like a door closes. It's still possible
to learn a new language, but it's a lot harder, and all but a few
savants will speak that new language with a foreign accent. This is why
linguists in the U.S. recommend mainstreaming young immigrant children
in English-only classes (with possible supplemental tutoring), but
teaching older immigrant children in their first language while adding a
class in ESL.

> So that by the time you go through two or three generations the kids
> might still learn their grand parents native language and learn about
> their culture they still consider the USA their home.

To the grandparents' disappointment, the grandchildren may learn phrases
and pronunciation, but unless the parents make a point of speaking mostly
the original language at home, or the grandchildren are required to take
classes in the language of their grandparents, they almost never become
proficient in it.

When I was a TA at MIT, we had very diverse classes, but you could tell
the Asians from the Asian-Americans, the Africans from the
African-Americans, and the Europeans from the European-Americans as soon
as they spoke. The only exception was a Ukrainian kid, but her family
immigrated early enough in her life that she sounded native-born.

> I would hope something similar happens in Canada with the people who
> actually immigrate to Canada and don't just buy property there.

If they're buying property primarily as a means of money laundering, are
they really all that interested in putting down roots?

-Micky

[Micky DuPree]

suzeeq <su...@imbris.com> writes:

> On 1/7/2022 8:26 AM, Rhino wrote:

>> What ARE the national values of Canada and the US that we need
>> immigrants to adhere to? Which ones must we insist on and which ones
>> can we let them slide on?

One of the requirements of American naturalization is being able to pass
a civics test. I wish the native-born had to pass the same test before
being granted the franchise. Being sympatico with the Declaration of
Independence and the U.S. Constitution is pretty much our common
national value, at least on paper.

>> I well remember one guy I met who was originally from India who said
>> that here in Canada he had so much more friendly contact with Muslims
>> than he'd ever had back in India. There are a great many Muslims in
>> India that chose to stay there rather than moving to Pakistan after
>> the partition in 1947 so I'm not sure how a (presumably Hindu) Indian
>> would have no contact with Muslims in India. Perhaps they
>> self-segregate to a very large extent?
>
> They did, and lived in different areas.

People of Irish-Catholic and Irish-Protestant heritage mingle much more
easily in the U.S. than they did back in the Old Country. The pattern
holds with a lot of groups who are at odds in the Old Country, but not
in the New, particularly once you get to the second generation.

-Micky

[BTR1701]

On Jan 18, 2022 at 8:12:49 PM PST, "Micky DuPree" <Micky DuPree> wrote:

> shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:45:00 -0500, Rhino
>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>
>>> On 2022-01-06 8:09 PM, shawn wrote:
>
>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:01:20 -0500, Rhino
>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> On 2022-01-06 7:13 PM, shawn wrote:
>
>>>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:51:36 -0500, Rhino
>>>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> On 2022-01-06 6:14 PM, shawn wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> A decreasing population also brings with it deflation hitting
>>>>>>>> everything from grocery items to homes to stocks.
>
> It's probably the single most effective thing we can do to fight climate
> change (but no, it's not enough on its own at this rate).

And not one 'climate activist' has walked their talk by sterilizing themselves
so they won't add another carbon footprint to the world. You can recycle
faithfully, put solar panels on your roof, drive an electric hamster-mobile,
do all the things they tell you to do and it won't even come close to the
environmental benefit of just not reproducing. But all the ones bitching about
my SUV all have a brood of kids at home.

[BTR1701]

On Jan 18, 2022 at 10:20:42 PM PST, "Micky DuPree" <Micky DuPree> wrote:

> suzeeq <su...@imbris.com> writes:
>
>> On 1/7/2022 8:26 AM, Rhino wrote:
>
>>> What ARE the national values of Canada and the US that we need
>>> immigrants to adhere to? Which ones must we insist on and which ones
>>> can we let them slide on?
>
> One of the requirements of American naturalization is being able to pass
> a civics test. I wish the native-born had to pass the same test before
> being granted the franchise.

Anyone who can't pass that test shouldn't be allowed outside unsupervised.

On the other hand, I'm shocked that DuPree is on record as being in favor of
one of enduring features of the Jim Crow era: the literacy test.

[moviePig]

On 1/19/2022 3:42 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
> On Jan 18, 2022 at 8:12:49 PM PST, "Micky DuPree" <Micky DuPree> wrote:
>
>> shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:45:00 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 2022-01-06 8:09 PM, shawn wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:01:20 -0500, Rhino
>>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On 2022-01-06 7:13 PM, shawn wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:51:36 -0500, Rhino
>>>>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-06 6:14 PM, shawn wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> A decreasing population also brings with it deflation hitting
>>>>>>>>> everything from grocery items to homes to stocks.
>>
>> It's probably the single most effective thing we can do to fight climate
>> change (but no, it's not enough on its own at this rate).
>
> And not one 'climate activist' has walked their talk by sterilizing themselves
> so they won't add another carbon footprint to the world.

How do you know?

> You can recycle
> faithfully, put solar panels on your roof, drive an electric hamster-mobile,
> do all the things they tell you to do and it won't even come close to the
> environmental benefit of just not reproducing. But all the ones bitching about
> my SUV all have a brood of kids at home.

...where 'brood' equals, say, one?

[moviePig]

What has always been objectionable about such tests is the pretense that
their actual purpose is to raise voter acumen.

[Ubiquitous]

Scratch a leftist, find a racist.

--
Let's go Brandon!

[BTR1701]

In article <u0VFJ.242535$831....@fx40.iad>,

Weird. I always thought the objectionable part about such tests was that
they disenfranchised people and kept them from voting.

Silly me.

[BTR1701]

In article <KXUFJ.199780$VS2....@fx44.iad>,

moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com> wrote:

> On 1/19/2022 3:42 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
> > On Jan 18, 2022 at 8:12:49 PM PST, "Micky DuPree" <Micky DuPree> wrote:
> >
> >> shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:45:00 -0500, Rhino
> >>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> On 2022-01-06 8:09 PM, shawn wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:01:20 -0500, Rhino
> >>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>> On 2022-01-06 7:13 PM, shawn wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:51:36 -0500, Rhino
> >>>>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>>>> On 2022-01-06 6:14 PM, shawn wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> A decreasing population also brings with it deflation hitting
> >>>>>>>>> everything from grocery items to homes to stocks.
> >>
> >> It's probably the single most effective thing we can do to fight climate
> >> change (but no, it's not enough on its own at this rate).
> >
> > And not one 'climate activist' has walked their talk by sterilizing
> > themselves so they won't add another carbon footprint to the world.
>
> How do you know?

Because I have eyes. Biden has kids, Newsom has kids, all the socialist
'green' fanatics in my state legislature have kids. About the only ones
who don't are Saint Greta of Thunberg (may peace be upon her), who's too
young for kids, and Occasional-Cortex, who's still in the celebrity
partier stage of life, but I'd bet half my yearly income that neither
one of them has any plan to sterilize herself on behalf of Mother Gaia,
either.

> > You can recycle faithfully, put solar panels on your roof, drive an
> > electric hamster-mobile, do all the things they tell you to do and
> > it won't even come close to the environmental benefit of just not
> > reproducing. But all the ones bitching about my SUV all have a brood
> > of kids at home.
>
> ...where 'brood' equals, say, one?

Even one kid cancels out literally every other thing they can do to
'save the environment'.

If this 'climate change' thing is actually the world-killing
extinction-level event that they constantly claim in order to justify
their wealth redistribution scheme, they should literally sterilize
themselves.

[trotsky]

At least you're starting to realize you're full of shit.

[trotsky]

On 1/19/2022 8:08 AM, moviePig wrote:
> On 1/19/2022 3:42 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
>> On Jan 18, 2022 at 8:12:49 PM PST, "Micky DuPree" <Micky DuPree> wrote:
>>
>>> shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>   On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:45:00 -0500, Rhino
>>>>   <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>   On 2022-01-06 8:09 PM, shawn wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>   On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:01:20 -0500, Rhino
>>>>>>   <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>   On 2022-01-06 7:13 PM, shawn wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>   On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 18:51:36 -0500, Rhino
>>>>>>>>   <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>   On 2022-01-06 6:14 PM, shawn wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   A decreasing population also brings with it deflation hitting
>>>>>>>>>>   everything from grocery items to homes to stocks.
>>>
>>> It's probably the single most effective thing we can do to fight climate
>>> change (but no, it's not enough on its own at this rate).
>>
>> And not one 'climate activist' has walked their talk by sterilizing
>> themselves
>> so they won't add another carbon footprint to the world.
>
> How do you know?

It doesn't matter that he's lying. The goal of zero carbon emissions is
very acheivable and he's just too stupid to research the topic. It's a
shame, he seems like an educated guy, but his life is fucked because
he's been poisoned by his own ideology. I wonder if deprogramming him
is even possible.