Dollhouse--Now that we're cancelled let's make it accessible
Ken from Chicago
accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
which lasted 4 years on NBC).
Odd, that could have been how the series went. Echo goes on engagements to
do one thing, but her special gift allows her to "sense" what's really wrong
and fix it. Boom. There's how you could have done the one-episode stories.
Sure, the Whedon twist would avoid simple stories but add his own flavor of
twists and occassionally she would tragically fail, but that would have been
better than the attempts at one-episode stories the show has done.
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. "There are pretenders among us, dolls with the ability to become anyone
you want them to be. In 2006, a corporation known as Rossum isolated a young
woman named Caroline and exploited her dollness for their research. Then one
day, their doll ran away ...."
Adam H. Kerman
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>Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
>accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
>heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
>flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
>which lasted 4 years on NBC).
>Odd, that could have been how the series went. Echo goes on engagements to
>do one thing, but her special gift allows her to "sense" what's really wrong
>and fix it. Boom. There's how you could have done the one-episode stories.
>Sure, the Whedon twist would avoid simple stories but add his own flavor of
>twists and occassionally she would tragically fail, but that would have been
>better than the attempts at one-episode stories the show has done.
>P.S. "There are pretenders among us, dolls with the ability to become anyone
>you want them to be. In 2006, a corporation known as Rossum isolated a young
>woman named Caroline and exploited her dollness for their research. Then one
>day, their doll ran away ...."
Eliza Dushku's curvy figure approaches Barbie-like dimensions.
Happy 29th Birthday, December 30. She'll soon be too old to play college kids
and interns.
I didn't care for either of tonight's episodes. Victor's group think
adventure didn't work for me; would have been fun if he was kidnapped by
Rossum's corporate takeover division instead of its mercenary division.
Then he could have had some Dilbert-like adventures in corporate America.
The Attic was a major disappointment. Didn't some little movie from 10 years
ago explore exactly the same idea? Caroline is getting retconned yet again.
Adelle not evil after all? Boo, hiss.
Taylor
wrote:
> Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
> accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
> heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
> flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
> which lasted 4 years on NBC).
>
I'm sorry, but I have to call b.s on this. More accessible?! It was on
FOX PRIMETIME and Fox even (((renewed))) it after a rather wobbly
first season when viewers and critics didn't like the direction of the
show, it got retooled and people STILL didn't bite. It's not like it
was always hidden on a Friday night (sure at the end it was). Fox
pretty much gave the show all the chances it could get.
Obveeus
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
> accessible episodes to the mainstream public:
By 'most accessible' are you referencing the massive amount of dialog (in
last nights episode pairing ) used by the characters to directly talk to the
home viewer, explaining what tney were doing and why it would work? Sheesh,
it was like watching one of those CSI shows that another thread here on
r.a.tv has been complaining about this week. Way too much 'exposition' for
my taste, even if that does make it accessible to the mainstream. It simply
felt to me like some poor writers know that they have to get from point A
(where the show is) to point B (where the show needs to go by the end) too
fast for substanitive storytelling. So, in the absense of being able to
show us hwat is going on with a story, they have the characters explain what
is going on through cliff notes style summary.
> exciting, clear villains and heroes
Clear? So which one is Adelle this week? Which one is the old Dollhouse
security head this week?
> ,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just flailing
> or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show which
> lasted 4 years on NBC).
I agree with that completely. Echo having full control over her database
does make her 'The Pretender' and that is a good development.
David Johnston
<lukeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 19, 6:29�am, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>> Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
>> accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
>> heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
>> flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
>> which lasted 4 years on NBC).
>>
>
>I'm sorry, but I have to call b.s on this. More accessible?! It was on
>FOX PRIMETIME and Fox even (((renewed))) it after a rather wobbly
>first season when viewers and critics didn't like the direction of the
>show, it got retooled and people STILL didn't bite. It's not like it
>was always hidden on a Friday night (sure at the end it was). Fox
>pretty much gave the show all the chances it could get.
He wasn't referring to timeslot.
Anlatt the Builder
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On the one hand, I'm enjoying the show quite a bit. I think it's
because there are now characters - not just Echo, but Boyd and Topher
and the rest - who are trying to accomplish something valuable, not
just make "engagements" work out without any Actives getting killed.
On the other hand, I think that, because the show has been cancelled,
they're in a tremendous rush to cover a lot of ground quickly, and
that has led them to write stories that don't really make any sense
within the context of the show.
For example, if Rossum wanted Victor for a program of theirs, they
would have simply requisitioned him. They own the Dollhouse. (As
Adelle pointed out, Victor was transferred in from a different house.
He could have been transferred out just as easily.)
Kidnapping Victor immediately after he was released - when protocol
dictates that he's being monitored and checked by his Dollhouse - was
wildly conspicuous and would lead to trouble even if it wasn't "Echo's
House." Maybe just ordering Victor to be turned over to them would
have led to some other problem, but it still makes far more sense.
Obveeus
"Anlatt the Builder" <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
> On the other hand, I think that, because the show has been cancelled,
> they're in a tremendous rush to cover a lot of ground quickly, and
> that has led them to write stories that don't really make any sense
> within the context of the show.
>
> For example, if Rossum wanted Victor for a program of theirs, they
> would have simply requisitioned him. They own the Dollhouse. (As
> Adelle pointed out, Victor was transferred in from a different house.
> He could have been transferred out just as easily.)
It certainly sounded last week like that was what was going to happen.
Victor was likely set to be shipped off to South Africa to end the
'grouping' problem.
> Kidnapping Victor immediately after he was released - when protocol
> dictates that he's being monitored and checked by his Dollhouse - was
> wildly conspicuous and would lead to trouble even if it wasn't "Echo's
> House." Maybe just ordering Victor to be turned over to them would
> have led to some other problem, but it still makes far more sense.
Agreed. Just ordering Victor's turnover seems like an easy solution...and
then threatening/attic-ing Adelle as needed to quell her complaints about
Victor's contract being up. Along those lines, you would think that Rossum
could have generated a fake feedback signal to look like Victor was still
operational seeing as how they knew the monitoring device was in place.
David Johnston
>
>"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
>> accessible episodes to the mainstream public:
>
>By 'most accessible' are you referencing the massive amount of dialog (in
>last nights episode pairing ) used by the characters to directly talk to the
>home viewer, explaining what tney were doing and why it would work?
What he probably means is:
Echo now has a distinct personality of her own
The characters are no longer generally despicable, at best idiots.
Pete B
kwicker1...@comcast.net says...
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
>
> P.S. "There are pretenders among us, dolls with the ability to become anyone
> you want them to be. In 2006, a corporation known as Rossum isolated a young
> woman named Caroline and exploited her dollness for their research. Then one
> day, their doll ran away ...."
Escaped into the Los Angeles underground, the Dolls fight injustice
Pete B
@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, lukeb...@gmail.com says...
> On Dec 19, 6:29�am, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > Ironic that now, after DOLLHOUSE has been cancelled, we get the most
> > accessible episodes to the mainstream public: exciting, clear villains and
> > heroes,, protagonists who actually take the initiative instead of just
> > flailing or reacting, and where Echo has become ... The Pretender (a show
> > which lasted 4 years on NBC).
> >
>
> I'm sorry, but I have to call b.s on this.
No, you are the bs.
> More accessible?! It was on
> FOX PRIMETIME and Fox even (((renewed))) it after a rather wobbly
> first season when viewers and critics didn't like the direction of the
> show,
All irrelevant, he was talking about now - not then.
> it got retooled
Not really.
> and people STILL didn't bite. It's not like it
> was always hidden on a Friday night (sure at the end it was). Fox
> pretty much gave the show all the chances it could get.
So fucking what? None of what you spewed was releated to what he said.
Ken Arromdee
It has been my theory that Dollhouse is a resume-building exercise for Eliza
Dukshu. Every time there's another episode where Echo takes on a different
personality, she can use that episode as evidence that she has experience
acting as a different type of character.
Giving Echo a main personality isn't in her best interests, which is why
it happened so late.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
Obi-wan Kenobi: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no 'try'."
Dimensional Traveler
> "Anlatt the Builder" <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On the other hand, I think that, because the show has been cancelled,
>> they're in a tremendous rush to cover a lot of ground quickly, and
>> that has led them to write stories that don't really make any sense
>> within the context of the show.
>>
>> For example, if Rossum wanted Victor for a program of theirs, they
>> would have simply requisitioned him. They own the Dollhouse. (As
>> Adelle pointed out, Victor was transferred in from a different house.
>> He could have been transferred out just as easily.)
>
> It certainly sounded last week like that was what was going to happen.
> Victor was likely set to be shipped off to South Africa to end the
> 'grouping' problem.
>
But this did bring to my attention one inconsistency. If Victor was
transferred in from a different House, why would Topher need to remember
where he was standing when he turned Victor into a Doll?
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
David Johnston
Topher worked at the previous house?
One Bit Shy
"Dimensional Traveler" <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4b2d4633$0$1618$742e...@news.sonic.net...
He wasn't transferred from another house. He came direct from the military
as a way of dumping their PTSD problems. The same with the other military
guys he was joined up. They specifically referred to 5 year programs for
them too.
OBS
Adam H. Kerman
There was dialogue to that effect. In fact, he was retconned within the
same episode. "Stop-Loss" was the first episode in which we had learned
that he had been a soldier in his past life.
One Bit Shy
news:hgjp53$tf0$2...@news.albasani.net...
I don't believe his past has been explicitly laid out previously, but the
first flashback implying a military past was in last season's "Echoes", the
7th episode of the series. We also saw a clearer flashback in this season's
"Belonging". (Episode 4) There may be other examples, but those are what
come to mind quickly.
The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a sense of
satisfaction, seeing them through.
DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house. He
wouldn't know me from you.
No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon here.
OBS
Obveeus
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>> There was dialogue to that effect. In fact, he was retconned within the
>> same episode. "Stop-Loss" was the first episode in which we had learned
>> that he had been a soldier in his past life.
>
> I don't believe his past has been explicitly laid out previously, but the
> first flashback implying a military past was in last season's "Echoes",
> the 7th episode of the series. We also saw a clearer flashback in this
> season's "Belonging". (Episode 4) There may be other examples, but those
> are what come to mind quickly.
>
> The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
>
> Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a sense
> of satisfaction, seeing them through.
> DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house. He
> wouldn't know me from you.
>
> No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
> else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
> here.
Thank you for the clarification on past references to Victor's backstory as
well as clarification on what was actually said in this episode.
Rich
news:hgjd8a$fnp$2...@blue.rahul.net:
> In article <696qi5dh0s4lkrbc0...@4ax.com>,
> David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>>Echo now has a distinct personality of her own
>
> It has been my theory that Dollhouse is a resume-building exercise for
> Eliza Dukshu. Every time there's another episode where Echo takes on
> a different personality, she can use that episode as evidence that she
> has experience acting as a different type of character.
>
> Giving Echo a main personality isn't in her best interests, which is
> why it happened so late.
Dushku has had here kicks at the can. She likely won't be headlining
anything again.
JRStern
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>I didn't care for either of tonight's episodes. Victor's group think
>adventure didn't work for me; would have been fun if he was kidnapped by
>Rossum's corporate takeover division instead of its mercenary division.
>Then he could have had some Dilbert-like adventures in corporate America.
>
>The Attic was a major disappointment. Didn't some little movie from 10 years
>ago explore exactly the same idea? Caroline is getting retconned yet again.
>
>Adelle not evil after all? Boo, hiss.
Yah. Same complaint I've been making, they throw plot elements around
waaay too fast for moi, and in random directions, no time spent
developing any, I was calling it "attention deficit television" but
maybe it's more like "pinball plotting".
There's a little too much Echo magic, knocking down doors and all, and
come on, using the brains for their "mainframe", who uses mainframes
anymore? That's sort of William Gibson's "Count Zero" stuff, but that
was written like 20 years ago now, Jurassic age, man. :)
J.
T987654321
better.
David Johnston
wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:42:29 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
><a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>I didn't care for either of tonight's episodes. Victor's group think
>>adventure didn't work for me; would have been fun if he was kidnapped by
>>Rossum's corporate takeover division instead of its mercenary division.
>>Then he could have had some Dilbert-like adventures in corporate America.
>>
>>The Attic was a major disappointment. Didn't some little movie from 10 years
>>ago explore exactly the same idea? Caroline is getting retconned yet again.
>>
>>Adelle not evil after all? Boo, hiss.
>
>Yah. Same complaint I've been making, they throw plot elements around
>waaay too fast for moi, and in random directions, no time spent
>developing any, I was calling it "attention deficit television" but
>maybe it's more like "pinball plotting".
>
>There's a little too much Echo magic, knocking down doors and all, and
>come on, using the brains for their "mainframe", who uses mainframes
>anymore?
Governments, large corporations, and academic institutions. Believe
it or not, there are still uses for big computers.
Adam H. Kerman
That's retconning Adele. Since when does she recruit? She means intake.
If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere else.
That doesn't rule out Topher implanting the architecture in his brain out
in the field somewhere, but you'd think it would have taken place in a
controlled secret environment, and not at a VA hospital.
Unless VA is contracting stuff out to Rossum too, which I suppose could
be possible.
Dimensional Traveler
Not my impression. Rossum seems to compartmentalize the Dollhouses
pretty severely. Note the fact that until Topher had been to the DC
House they didn't have a clue that each House was working on some
specific, _different_, part of a larger plan.
One Bit Shy
news:hgk1f9$amj$5...@news.albasani.net...
Since the very first scene of the series when she was recruiting Caroline.
Adelle has always taken on responsibility for selling people on signing
their 5 year contracts. There may be other people involved in recruiting
and their certainly are other sources of dolls, but she's always played a
major role in recruiting.
> She means intake.
No, the whole point is that the ones she personally sees out of the house
are the ones she established a personal relationship with on the way in -
the ones she actively encouraged to sign up.
> If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere else.
I'm not sure what "intake" means to you, but I take it to be the
administrative and technical process following a doll being signed up. Now
forgetting for the moment that "intake" was not the word used, let me point
out that "dolling up" as you put it is a technical process that would be
performed by Topher - not Adelle - no matter how the person was brought to
the house. Whether or not Adelle got to know the recruit first, Topher is
still going to put he/she into the chair. So there's no implication that it
had to happen elsewhere.
> That doesn't rule out Topher implanting the architecture in his brain out
> in the field somewhere, but you'd think it would have taken place in a
> controlled secret environment, and not at a VA hospital.
Only if the equipment were brought into the field with him. The story would
seem to indicate that wasn't feasible 5 years ago. But then there's nothing
said to point that direction anyway. Rossum got these guys straight from
the military. They were "assigned" to various dollhouses where they were
converted into actives. It's just another source of dolls - like prisons
used to be in the early days. Evidently the dollhouses didn't know that
Rossum had special future plans for them. They were just told that the 5
year term was in exchange for curing the PTSD.
> Unless VA is contracting stuff out to Rossum too, which I suppose could
> be possible.
Maybe. It was done through a division of Rossum that's equated to
Blackwater. This is more detail than the show reaches down to. But I doubt
the VA would be involved. It seems more like an arrangement directly with
the military. It looks like the soldiers are discharged directly to the
Dollhouses.
OBS
Pete B
says...
> They were going to ship Sierra off to Dubai.
>
> But this did bring to my attention one inconsistency. If Victor was
> transferred in from a different House, why would Topher need to remember
> where he was standing when he turned Victor into a Doll?
She said she didn't recruit him, not that he was transferred
Pete B
O...@nomail.sorry says...
> No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
> else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon here.
>
>
Surely if there is a retcon its that suddenly dolls need to have
implanents, that didn't show up until a few episodes ago.
Pete B
JRS...@foobar.invalid says...
More like the TechnoCore - but either way its just a word
One Bit Shy
news:MPG.2597bb62d...@news.usenetserver.com...
I'm not sure what you mean by that. GPS tracking isn't new. I'm not sure
when the tagging was first mentioned, but I think it's implied by the
capability. Or perhaps you're referring to the - what did they call it
now - active architecture? Something like that. The term is new, but I
think it represents finally getting around to fleshing out a little the
process they've mostly left vague, rather than any real retcon. Just a
little fleshing out mind you. Dollhouse works hard to avoid really
explaining the technical stuff. Which makes sense. It's pretty much all
made up nonsense that defies explanation.
OBS
Adam H. Kerman
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>>The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
>>>Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a sense
>>>of satisfaction, seeing them through.
>>>DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house. He
>>>wouldn't know me from you.
>>>No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
>>>else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
>>>here.
>>That's retconning Adele. Since when does she recruit?
>Since the very first scene of the series when she was recruiting Caroline.
Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
killed or sent immediately to the Attic. I suppose now that Adele has been
retconned as a hero, that entire scene was meant to distract us.
>Adelle has always taken on responsibility for selling people on signing
>their 5 year contracts.
She gives them a choice of two kinds of Hell. Adele has found none of their
potential slaves, so there's no recruiting going on.
From what I can tell, Rossum preys on people at vulnerable moments and
some of the Dolls, Sierra and probably Victor, were outright kidnapped.
I do not agree with you.
>>She means intake.
>No, the whole point is that the ones she personally sees out of the house
>are the ones she established a personal relationship with on the way in -
>the ones she actively encouraged to sign up.
I knew what she was referring to.
>>If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere else.
>I'm not sure what "intake" means to you, but I take it to be the
>administrative and technical process following a doll being signed up.
Recruitment means Rossum has selected a victim. There are probably no
instances of actual volunteering; Rossum may have created artificial
situations in the real world simulating stress. In Victor's case, battlefield
stress was ideal. In the Senator's case, well, they just grabbed him.
>Now forgetting for the moment that "intake" was not the word used, let
>me point out that "dolling up" as you put it is a technical process that
>would be performed by Topher - not Adelle - no matter how the person
>was brought to the house.
Of course, which is why I really don't understand how Topher installed
Victor's mental architecture without Adele being involved at all.
>Whether or not Adelle got to know the recruit first, Topher is still
>going to put he/she into the chair. So there's no implication that it
>had to happen elsewhere.
We know what Adele is like when she feels she's lost control of the House,
so that suggests that Victor was dolled up elsewhere. Seems to me that
denying Adele her tea ceremony is a challenge to her authority.
>>That doesn't rule out Topher implanting the architecture in his brain out
>>in the field somewhere, but you'd think it would have taken place in a
>>controlled secret environment, and not at a VA hospital.
>Only if the equipment were brought into the field with him. The story would
>seem to indicate that wasn't feasible 5 years ago.
The new technology is instant personality implant without Doll architecture,
nothing to do with what they did years ago, which one assumes is still what
they are doing today. It still takes time to set up a facility for Topher
to work in, and I don't believe they'd do it for one man. It would be
difficult to keep it entirely secret.
>But then there's nothing said to point that direction anyway. Rossum got
>these guys straight from the military.
That's why I guessed they had set up a lab in a VA hospital.
>They were "assigned" to various dollhouses where they were converted
>into actives.
It's possible, but it seems too dangerous to send guys like this into a
Dollhouse unconverted.
>>Unless VA is contracting stuff out to Rossum too, which I suppose could
>>be possible.
>Maybe. It was done through a division of Rossum that's equated to
>Blackwater. This is more detail than the show reaches down to. But I doubt
>the VA would be involved.
Why not? They were specifically looking for PTSD. VA is filled with such
guys.
>It seems more like an arrangement directly with the military.
Well, once they are turned into group-think mercenaries, sure. Maybe the
military gives Rossum access to service records, but I'm not sure it's
important.
David Johnston
<dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
But they still have to set up the Houses in the first place, and it
makes sense they'd have to send some people with some experience to do
it. Topher's assistant for example, might go to the Abu Dhabi house,
because where else are they going to get their techie than from one of
the houses that already exist?
Horace LaBadie
While in hospital, Caroline was identified by a Rossum employee as a
potential Doll, and DeWitt showed up to make her an offer. Caroline had
escaped, however. There were two missing years during which DeWitt was
pursuing Caroline, ending with the abduction and the offer in the first
episode.
DeWitt also made an offer to the guy who stole the drug in "Echoes." She
promised to give his mother a stipend and take care of her mortgage
while he was in the House, after which he would have enough money to
take care of his mother himself.
That's two people (that we know of) she brought into the House.
> I do not agree with you.
>
> >>She means intake.
>
> >No, the whole point is that the ones she personally sees out of the house
> >are the ones she established a personal relationship with on the way in -
> >the ones she actively encouraged to sign up.
>
> I knew what she was referring to.
>
> >>If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere else.
>
> >I'm not sure what "intake" means to you, but I take it to be the
> >administrative and technical process following a doll being signed up.
>
> Recruitment means Rossum has selected a victim. There are probably no
> instances of actual volunteering; Rossum may have created artificial
> situations in the real world simulating stress. In Victor's case, battlefield
> stress was ideal. In the Senator's case, well, they just grabbed him.
Madelyn (Mellie/November) volunteered. She was grief-stricken, and
wanted to get beyond the loss of her daughter (to cancer, as I recall.)
Perrin also volunteered. He was a party-boy who had an effortless change
of personality and political career offered to him. He was seduced, not
grabbed.
David Johnston
wrote:
Actually from the very start we saw that the dolls are broadcasting
electronic signals. It's how the handlers monitor their status.
Pete B
O...@nomail.sorry says...
> "Pete B" <xxxh@_xsomeething.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.2597bb62d...@news.usenetserver.com...
> > In article <lbKdnW_Z6_Fb8LDW...@supernews.com>,
> > O...@nomail.sorry says...
> >> No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to
> >> something
> >> else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
> >> here.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Surely if there is a retcon its that suddenly dolls need to have
> > implanents, that didn't show up until a few episodes ago.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by that.
That they don't just download to an untouched brain. But that they need
to put stuff in first.
> Or perhaps you're referring to the - what did they call it
> now - active architecture? Something like that. The term is new, but I
> think it represents finally getting around to fleshing out a little the
> process they've mostly left vague, rather than any real retcon. Just a
> little fleshing out mind you. Dollhouse works hard to avoid really
> explaining the technical stuff. Which makes sense. It's pretty much all
> made up nonsense that defies explanation.
yeah, much like life.
One Bit Shy
news:hgk7ki$mon$1...@news.albasani.net...
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>>>The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
>
>>>>Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a
>>>>sense
>>>>of satisfaction, seeing them through.
>>>>DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house.
>>>>He
>>>>wouldn't know me from you.
>
>>>>No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to
>>>>something
>>>>else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
>>>>here.
>
>>>That's retconning Adele. Since when does she recruit?
>
>>Since the very first scene of the series when she was recruiting Caroline.
>
> Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
> Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
> which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
> killed or sent immediately to the Attic. I suppose now that Adele has been
> retconned as a hero, that entire scene was meant to distract us.
We actually don't know how much if any of that interpretation is true.
There's a two year gap not yet accounted for. We don't know how she
actually ended up in that room having tea with Adelle and being persuaded to
sign the deal. We do know that Adelle presented it as a solution to her
problems. We also know that when Caroline was briefly brought back to life
by Alpha, she believed she had an obligation to live up to the deal. She
was convinced otherwise by Echo not because she had been coerced by Adelle,
but because the resulting imprinted personalities were being effectively
enslaved. I think you're assuming too much about what happened between
Adelle and Caroline, though I expect we'll learn more shortly.
None of which is strictly relevant. Adelle thinks of it as recruiting, and
she's the one who made the remark. The only point being made is that some
dolls come into the house through her and some don't. The ones that do are
the ones that she walks out the door at the end of five years. The
revelation in that scene is that Victor did not come into the house through
the usual means. That's all.
>>Adelle has always taken on responsibility for selling people on signing
>>their 5 year contracts.
>
> She gives them a choice of two kinds of Hell. Adele has found none of
> their
> potential slaves, so there's no recruiting going on.
We really don't know much about how potential actives are found, though we
have been given some examples of types of people deemed suitable. I'm sure
other people are used to bring potential recruits to Adelle's attention.
That's how it was presented with Caroline when Adelle went to her hospital
room to check her out. (A very recruiting like action IMO.) But however
early or late that Adelle steps into the picture, it seems to be suggested
that she generally chooses who she wants and that there is some degree of
free will to signing the contracts, as well as some version of fair return
offered.
When you say there's no recruiting going on, you're using a different and
much narrower definition of the term than Adelle is. This is not the type
of recruiting used to sign kids to a college football program, nor every day
job recruiting, or even military recruiting. This is operating in a much
dirtier world of desperate people vulnerable to exploitation. People keep
pointing to the parallels with human trafficking for a reason.
But to Adelle it's still a process of identifying suitable candidates and
then selling them on the Dollhouse solution, which she likes to call
recruiting.
> From what I can tell, Rossum preys on people at vulnerable moments and
> some of the Dolls, Sierra and probably Victor, were outright kidnapped.
Sure. So what?
> I do not agree with you.
You don't have to. But I do encourage you to please try to hear what the
show is trying to say about itself. It's so helpful for appreciating what
the show is doing. It's not a retcon because Adelle's idea of "recruiting"
is different than yours.
>>>She means intake.
>
>>No, the whole point is that the ones she personally sees out of the house
>>are the ones she established a personal relationship with on the way in -
>>the ones she actively encouraged to sign up.
>
> I knew what she was referring to.
>
>>>If Adele didn't do the intake, that means he was dolled up somewhere
>>>else.
>
>>I'm not sure what "intake" means to you, but I take it to be the
>>administrative and technical process following a doll being signed up.
>
> Recruitment means Rossum has selected a victim. There are probably no
> instances of actual volunteering;
If you mean like volunteering for the army, of course not. Hardly anybody
knows Dollhouses actually exist. That's why they have to reach out to
people - recruit.
> Rossum may have created artificial
> situations in the real world simulating stress. In Victor's case,
> battlefield
> stress was ideal. In the Senator's case, well, they just grabbed him.
Sure. So? We already know that Adelle doesn't consider Victor to be
someone she recruited. The Senator was handled by a different house, but I
doubt Adelle would consider that recruiting either.
>>Now forgetting for the moment that "intake" was not the word used, let
>>me point out that "dolling up" as you put it is a technical process that
>>would be performed by Topher - not Adelle - no matter how the person
>>was brought to the house.
>
> Of course, which is why I really don't understand how Topher installed
> Victor's mental architecture without Adele being involved at all.
I'm sure that Adelle knew Victor was assigned to the house. Beyond that,
what does she need to be involved in? When Caroline was signed up, after
the contract was signed she was just walked through the house and turned
over to Topher. Dr. Saunders probably got involved too, but Adelle doesn't
have to be around for that either.
>>Whether or not Adelle got to know the recruit first, Topher is still
>>going to put he/she into the chair. So there's no implication that it
>>had to happen elsewhere.
>
> We know what Adele is like when she feels she's lost control of the House,
> so that suggests that Victor was dolled up elsewhere. Seems to me that
> denying Adele her tea ceremony is a challenge to her authority.
I'm sorry, but I think you're projecting more onto that than the series has
actually shown. I don't doubt that she'd like that kind of control if it
was available, but it seems evident that she doesn't always get that choice.
Sometimes she has to accept what Rossum sends her. She does work for them
after all.
>>>That doesn't rule out Topher implanting the architecture in his brain out
>>>in the field somewhere, but you'd think it would have taken place in a
>>>controlled secret environment, and not at a VA hospital.
>
>>Only if the equipment were brought into the field with him. The story
>>would
>>seem to indicate that wasn't feasible 5 years ago.
>
> The new technology is instant personality implant without Doll
> architecture,
> nothing to do with what they did years ago, which one assumes is still
> what
> they are doing today. It still takes time to set up a facility for Topher
> to work in, and I don't believe they'd do it for one man. It would be
> difficult to keep it entirely secret.
Isn't that kind of what I just said? Not feasible.
>>But then there's nothing said to point that direction anyway. Rossum got
>>these guys straight from the military.
>
> That's why I guessed they had set up a lab in a VA hospital.
Sure. I see what led you there.
>>They were "assigned" to various dollhouses where they were converted
>>into actives.
>
> It's possible, but it seems too dangerous to send guys like this into a
> Dollhouse unconverted.
Why? They're soldiers being assigned elsehwhere. "Assigned" is how the
soldiers themselves described it. Since one suspects they were in hospitals
already, it probably felt like a medical transfer to them. Maybe they were
drugged up too. I don't see why it would need by particularly dangerous.
There's no indication that it was against their will.
>>>Unless VA is contracting stuff out to Rossum too, which I suppose could
>>>be possible.
>
>>Maybe. It was done through a division of Rossum that's equated to
>>Blackwater. This is more detail than the show reaches down to. But I
>>doubt
>>the VA would be involved.
>
> Why not? They were specifically looking for PTSD. VA is filled with such
> guys.
The VA is essentially a civilian operation with patients no longer under the
same level of control they were while enlisted. I think Rossum would prefer
the more controlled conditions of the still enlisted. You can find PTSD in
military hospitals too.
The military might also be motivated to hide its most serious cases and want
to palm them off directly to a clandestine operation like this before they
work their way into the VA system.
And, again, the soldiers describe it as being assigned - as if they were
still in the military at the time.
>>It seems more like an arrangement directly with the military.
>
> Well, once they are turned into group-think mercenaries, sure. Maybe the
> military gives Rossum access to service records, but I'm not sure it's
> important.
Probably not. As I said before, we're drilling down to a level of detail
not covered by the show.
OBS
David Johnston
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>>>The dialogue I assume you refer to in "Stop Loss" goes as follows:
>
>>>>Boyd: Usually you handle Active releases. I thought it gave you a sense
>>>>of satisfaction, seeing them through.
>>>>DeWitt: When I've recruited them. Victor was assigned to this house. He
>>>>wouldn't know me from you.
>
>>>>No mention of coming from another house. If you're referring to something
>>>>else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon
>>>>here.
>
>>>That's retconning Adele. Since when does she recruit?
>
>>Since the very first scene of the series when she was recruiting Caroline.
>
>Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
>Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
"Recruit" doesn't necessarily mean "ask nicely".
Ken from Chicago
"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:8lvqi5htdrrqoe6qb...@4ax.com...
Google Inc. uses acres of them.
-- Ken from Chicago
Anlatt the Builder
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>
> Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
> Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
> which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
> killed or sent immediately to the Attic.
Adelle offered her a choice, which, from Adelle's point of view, is
"recruiting" her. I have no idea if the choice was an actual one, or,
more to the point, if Adelle thought it was. (She may have thought
that Caroline refusing would go to jail; Rossum might have had other
plans.) Neither do you.
> I suppose now that Adele has been
> retconned as a hero, that entire scene was meant to distract us.
>
That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
against Rossum. She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and
revenge, or a belief that there would be no place for her in Rossum's
future, or just a decision that she prefers the world as it is to
Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe, maybe not.
I'm reminded of when Spike went to Buffy to help against Angelus's
plan to bring "Hell on Earth." He didn't do it because he was a hero
(at that point, he certainly wasn't). He did it because he was
enjoying life as a vampire on earth, and living in Hell on Earth
didn't appeal to him. (I remember his description of how much he
enjoyed the world: "And the people - Happy Meals on legs!")
>
> Recruitment means Rossum has selected a victim. There are probably no
> instances of actual volunteering; Rossum may have created artificial
> situations in the real world simulating stress.
The show has given me no reason to believe that. From what I've seen,
they - in many, not all, cases - actually find people who need the
money, or the escape from an untenable situation, or (like Mellie) use
of Dollhouse technology to remove emotional states they don't think
they can live with.
>
> Of course, which is why I really don't understand how Topher installed
> Victor's mental architecture without Adele being involved at all.
I think that Adelle's statement that Victor was transferred in from
another house, coupled with Topher's "I was standing right... here,"
was simply a mistake - even if, with considerable strain, it can be
explained away. I think they're somewhat rushed writing these final
episodes.
Pete
David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:50:05 -0800, JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>There's a little too much Echo magic, knocking down doors and all, and
>>come on, using the brains for their "mainframe", who uses mainframes
>>anymore?
>
>Governments, large corporations, and academic institutions. Believe
>it or not, there are still uses for big computers.
It's more the word "mainframe" that is sooo 20th century...
Sure was a heavy-duty processor cluster, though!
-- Pete --
--
============================================================================
The address in the header is a Spam Bucket -- don't bother replying to it...
(If you do need to email, replace the account name with my true name.)
============================================================================
Adam H. Kerman
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>>Adelle has always taken on responsibility for selling people on signing
>>>their 5 year contracts.
>>She gives them a choice of two kinds of Hell. Adele has found none of their
>>potential slaves, so there's no recruiting going on.
>>From what I can tell, Rossum preys on people at vulnerable moments and
>>some of the Dolls, Sierra and probably Victor, were outright kidnapped.
>While in hospital, Caroline was identified by a Rossum employee as a
>potential Doll, and DeWitt showed up to make her an offer. Caroline had
>escaped, however. There were two missing years during which DeWitt was
>pursuing Caroline, ending with the abduction and the offer in the first
>episode.
Thank you for remembering more of the backstory. Did Rossum notice something
special about her brain? I always figured it was revenge.
>DeWitt also made an offer to the guy who stole the drug in "Echoes." She
>promised to give his mother a stipend and take care of her mortgage
>while he was in the House, after which he would have enough money to
>take care of his mother himself.
>That's two people (that we know of) she brought into the House.
Well, yes, but I'm noticing that the pattern is many of the Dolls brought
themselves to Rossum's attention.
>>Recruitment means Rossum has selected a victim. There are probably no
>>instances of actual volunteering; Rossum may have created artificial
>>situations in the real world simulating stress. In Victor's case, battlefield
>>stress was ideal. In the Senator's case, well, they just grabbed him.
>Madelyn (Mellie/November) volunteered. She was grief-stricken, and
>wanted to get beyond the loss of her daughter (to cancer, as I recall.)
But how did November find Rossum? A plant in a support group, maybe?
>Perrin also volunteered. He was a party-boy who had an effortless change
>of personality and political career offered to him. He was seduced, not
>grabbed.
He volunteered? I don't recall that.
Adam H. Kerman
>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
>>Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
>>which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
>>killed or sent immediately to the Attic.
>Adelle offered her a choice, which, from Adelle's point of view, is
>"recruiting" her. I have no idea if the choice was an actual one, or,
>more to the point, if Adelle thought it was. (She may have thought
>that Caroline refusing would go to jail; Rossum might have had other
>plans.) Neither do you.
I think by this time we can conclude that once you are in Rossum's sight,
you are not free to live your life. Even a lengthy incarceration might not
be sufficient control for Rossum. Why take a chance?
>>I suppose now that Adele has been retconned as a hero, that entire scene
>>was meant to distract us.
>That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
>Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
>against Rossum.
AFTER passing Topher's discovery on to them, which undoubtably speeded up
their research quite a bit?
>She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>maybe not.
She damn well better have something evil in mind.
Ken from Chicago
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:hgk1f9$amj$5...@news.albasani.net...
Why couldn't Victor have agreed to be an active at a 3rd Dollhouse with
Topher putting him under and they both were transferred to the LA Dollhouse,
or Topher was handling the PTS cases until the local tech was brought up to
speed?
-- KEn from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Pete" <neve...@GOODEVEca.net> wrote in message
news:iIOdnQxG6KIcfLDW...@lmi.net...
> In article <8lvqi5htdrrqoe6qb...@4ax.com>,
> David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:50:05 -0800, JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> [....]
>>>There's a little too much Echo magic, knocking down doors and all, and
>>>come on, using the brains for their "mainframe", who uses mainframes
>>>anymore?
>>
>>Governments, large corporations, and academic institutions. Believe
>>it or not, there are still uses for big computers.
>
> It's more the word "mainframe" that is sooo 20th century...
> Sure was a heavy-duty processor cluster, though!
>
> -- Pete --
Um, the guy was locked up in the Attic in 1993. It would have been error for
him to NOT refer to them as "mainframes".
-- Ken from Chicago
Adam H. Kerman
Rossum doesn't seem to work like a normal corporation. They don't appear
to move staff around. This would be particularly true of people like Topher
performing portions of the actual brain research as Rossum was trying to
keep it all highly compartmentalized, to prevent corporate espionage
I'll guess.
The only way I'd buy Topher at another Dollhouse is if Topher is setting it
up and creating initial Dolls. But once the brain research begins, Topher
cannot be there.
Obveeus
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> We actually don't know how much if any of that interpretation is true.
> There's a two year gap not yet accounted for. We don't know how she
> actually ended up in that room having tea with Adelle and being persuaded
> to sign the deal. We do know that Adelle presented it as a solution to
> her problems. We also know that when Caroline was briefly brought back to
> life by Alpha, she believed she had an obligation to live up to the deal.
> She was convinced otherwise by Echo not because she had been coerced by
> Adelle, but because the resulting imprinted personalities were being
> effectively enslaved. I think you're assuming too much about what
> happened between Adelle and Caroline, though I expect we'll learn more
> shortly.
We know that Caroline feels responsible for killing someone (or multiple
someones) and that she didn't want to live with that knowledge. That
someone is very likely Bennett (Summer Glau's character) who Caroline left
to die in the building fire. Caroline may also believe that she killed one
of Rossum's original founders (since he mentioned that Caroline had been the
only other person to have seen the doll that replaced him, he must have
disappeared to the attic shortly after that time). From the preview for the
next episode, the Summer Glau character will be back; so I agree with you
that we will get more of that backstory (likely to include exactly why
Caroline felt compelled to sign on for the Dollhouse) shortly.
David Johnston
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>>>Adelle has always taken on responsibility for selling people on signing
>>>>their 5 year contracts.
>
>>>She gives them a choice of two kinds of Hell. Adele has found none of their
>>>potential slaves, so there's no recruiting going on.
>
>>>From what I can tell, Rossum preys on people at vulnerable moments and
>>>some of the Dolls, Sierra and probably Victor, were outright kidnapped.
>
>>While in hospital, Caroline was identified by a Rossum employee as a
>>potential Doll, and DeWitt showed up to make her an offer. Caroline had
>>escaped, however. There were two missing years during which DeWitt was
>>pursuing Caroline, ending with the abduction and the offer in the first
>>episode.
>
>Thank you for remembering more of the backstory. Did Rossum notice something
>special about her brain? I always figured it was revenge.
It's more like cover-up. Once they had her as a Doll they could make
her vanish inconspicuously after saying something that will make any
of her attempts to expose Rossum harmless.
>>Perrin also volunteered. He was a party-boy who had an effortless change
>>of personality and political career offered to him. He was seduced, not
>>grabbed.
>
>He volunteered? I don't recall that.
Nor do I. I think that was his family. But Perrin wasn't the work of
the L.A. house
Horace LaBadie
David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
Cindy recruited him for the D.C. House. The flashbacks showed her
approaching him at a party at his family home and giving him a sales
pitch of a kind.
David Johnston
That's how he remembers first meeting her fictional character. It's
the explanation for how he turned himself around and stopped being a
screw-up. Either that meeting didn't happen the way he remembers it,
or it never happened at all, or it was an event that happened after he
was programmed.
Pete B
@g4g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, tir...@aol.com says...
Except she didn't make that statement.
Horace LaBadie
David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
If his flashbacks meant anything, that was the actual event. It's one of
the memories that persuaded him that he was a Doll. At that point, she
wasn't anything but someone he had met, and who offered him a chance to
turn his life around without any muss or fuss. We see a later flashback
of him being imprinted on her as his handler. That's when he becomes the
White Knight.
Horace LaBadie
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> >Madelyn (Mellie/November) volunteered. She was grief-stricken, and
> >wanted to get beyond the loss of her daughter (to cancer, as I recall.)
>
> But how did November find Rossum? A plant in a support group, maybe?
She was another of DeWitt's kids. All that Maddie tells Ballard is that
Adelle came to her and explained that she could go to sleep for five
years and wake up without the pain. Presumably, one of the doctors or
other health workers familiar with her depression recommended her to
Rossum.
Adam H. Kerman
Right. This goes back to my theory that Rossum is preying on people in
their weakest moments. In this case, the artificial situation is that she
was getting treated by a doctor who was paid by Rossum to look for people
like her, and not act in the patient's best interest.
Anlatt the Builder
Maddie may disagree with you that it was not in the best interest of
the patient. And, depedning on how much he actually knew about the
Dollhouse, the doctor may disagree with you too. (He may not have
understood everything that being a Doll entailed.) In fact, the doctor
- if he existed and was involved at all - may have known nothing about
the Dollhouse, and merely thought he was referring someone to a place
where they have a non-standard treatment for depression.
Or Maddie may have been recruited from a support group, or read an
article (with no mention of the Dollhouse) about a company treating
depression - and, once she showed up, was shunted to Adelle for an
offer.
I suspect that you would consider any way that Maddie found out about
the opportunity to be "artificial."You're ignoring the fact that the
people who work in the Dollhouse may actually think that they are
helping some folks - but at a great cost that must be paid by these
folks serving as Dolls for five years. Of course, that would distract
from your fixed belief that Adelle is a "villain" and never a "hero,"
when in fact she might be something a little more complicated than
either.
Adam H. Kerman
>>>>Perrin also volunteered. He was a party-boy who had an effortless change
>>>>of personality and political career offered to him. He was seduced, not
>>>>grabbed.
>>>He volunteered? I don't recall that.
>>Nor do I. I think that was his family. But Perrin wasn't the work of
>>the L.A. house
>Cindy recruited him for the D.C. House. The flashbacks showed her
>approaching him at a party at his family home and giving him a sales
>pitch of a kind.
It doesn't make a damn bit of difference how he was approached. He was
targeted by Rossum. He's a victim, Rossum's slave. In no way is he an
indentured serveant as it might be argued that a couple of the Dolls are,
like Caroline. I absolutely do not agree with your statement, quoted above,
that he volunteered.
Adam H. Kerman
>>Horace LaBadie <hwlabadi...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
>>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>Madelyn (Mellie/November) volunteered. She was grief-stricken, and
>>>>>wanted to get beyond the loss of her daughter (to cancer, as I recall.)
>>>>But how did November find Rossum? A plant in a support group, maybe?
>>>She was another of DeWitt's kids. All that Maddie tells Ballard is that
>>>Adelle came to her and explained that she could go to sleep for five
>>>years and wake up without the pain. Presumably, one of the doctors or
>>>other health workers familiar with her depression recommended her to
>>>Rossum.
>>Right. This goes back to my theory that Rossum is preying on people in
>>their weakest moments. In this case, the artificial situation is that she
>>was getting treated by a doctor who was paid by Rossum to look for people
>>like her, and not act in the patient's best interest.
>Maddie may disagree with you that it was not in the best interest of
>the patient.
Well, we cannot know. Once the Doll architecture has been installed in one's
brain, one is dead, as it was finally revealed to us in that episode with
her and Perrin, that the re-installed original personality (not in Perrin's
case) just re-creates you. Anyway, her original personality turned out to
have some alterations so she'd continue to do Rossum's bidding.
>And, depedning on how much he actually knew about the Dollhouse, the doctor
>may disagree with you too. (He may not have understood everything that
>being a Doll entailed.)
I'll go futher than you have. I'll assume that the psychiatrist who identified
her thought these were drug trials. There's no way to believe that he's not
paid by Rossum, for that's how patients are found for drug trials.
>In fact, the doctor - if he existed and was involved at all - may
>have known nothing about the Dollhouse, and merely thought he was
>referring someone to a place where they have a non-standard treatment
>for depression.
It's possible, but in the Doll-verse where there are no innocents, doubtful.
>Or Maddie may have been recruited from a support group, or read an
>article (with no mention of the Dollhouse) about a company treating
>depression - and, once she showed up, was shunted to Adelle for an
>offer.
>I suspect that you would consider any way that Maddie found out about
>the opportunity to be "artificial."
Yes.
>You're ignoring the fact that the people who work in the Dollhouse may
>actually think that they are helping some folks - but at a great cost
>that must be paid by these folks serving as Dolls for five years.
Go with that thought for a moment. I can think of no one in the Dollhouse
who could possibly think that, so tell me who you are thinking of. I can
believe that certain people aware of the false reputation Rossum created
for itself may refer patients to Rossum for treatment in good conscience.
>Of course, that would distract from your fixed belief that Adelle is a
>"villain" and never a "hero," when in fact she might be something a
>little more complicated than either.
Caroline is no hero either. Are we watching the same show? There are no
heroes on it. The only 100% total innocent is Sierra.
Jim Gysin
Pete B sent the following on 12/19/2009 9:41 PM:
>> else, please point me the right direction. But I don't see any retcon here.
>>
>>
>
> implanents, that didn't show up until a few episodes ago.
That's not a retcon, as there was no *changing* of previous canon
involved. Just because something doesn't get mentioned at one point
doesn't mean that, when it *does* get mentioned later on, it's a retcon.
Rather, it just means that they didn't mention it any sooner.
--
Jim Gysin
Waukesha, WI
Horace LaBadie
He was selected as the scion of a political dynasty who might be
susceptible of being turned into a tool of Rossum. He was stupid enough
to fall for the pitch or the woman or both. He was probably completely
ignorant of what would actually happen to him, but he volunteered for it
nonetheless. It was a idiotic deal to make, and he didn't deserve what
happened, but he could have refused. It's not as though there aren't
plenty of others exactly like him from whom Rossum could have found
another dope.
Horace LaBadie
Doctors make arrangements to put people into experimental trials all the
time. It could have been perfectly innocent for all that we are told.
She was genuinely depressed, and there is no reason to think that her
doctors weren't trying to do their best for her.
Heck, even DeWitt seemed to believe quite earnestly that Rossum and the
Dollhouse were doing useful and good work.
So far, the only really corrupt doctor we have seen is Nolan, who put
Priya into involuntary psychiatric care. And we saw how DeWitt reacted
when she found out about that.
Jim Gysin
Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 3:35 AM:
> Anlatt the Builder <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 19, 8:02 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>> Adele certainly did not recruit Caroline. Caroline attacked a Rossum lab.
>>> Rossum captured her. Adele gave her a choice of jail or becoming a Doll,
>>> which was probably a false choice; undoubtably Caroline would have been
>>> killed or sent immediately to the Attic.
>
>> Adelle offered her a choice, which, from Adelle's point of view, is
>> "recruiting" her. I have no idea if the choice was an actual one, or,
>> more to the point, if Adelle thought it was. (She may have thought
>> that Caroline refusing would go to jail; Rossum might have had other
>> plans.) Neither do you.
>
> I think by this time we can conclude that once you are in Rossum's sight,
> you are not free to live your life. Even a lengthy incarceration might not
> be sufficient control for Rossum. Why take a chance?
>
>>> I suppose now that Adele has been retconned as a hero, that entire scene
>>> was meant to distract us.
>
>> That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
>> Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
>> against Rossum.
>
> AFTER passing Topher's discovery on to them, which undoubtably speeded up
> their research quite a bit?
Didn't that *just* happen time-wise? How much harm could it have
already done, really?
>> She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>> there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>> that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>> maybe not.
>
> She damn well better have something evil in mind.
Why? Don't you believe in redemption? She bottomed out when Victor (as
whoever-he-was) put an abrupt end to their tryst and posed the
comment/question that made clear to her how pathetic her life had
become. I wish that they'd given her reaction a bit more screen time,
but it still seemed obvious to me that she broke at that point. And
after a bit of self-pity with some good single malt, she was shocked out
of herself by Boyd, at which point she started her return from her own
little abyss's edge.
Adam H. Kerman
That's an absurd amount of hand waiving to avoid admitting that you didn't
remember the story correctly. You cannot volunteer for something without
informed consent.
In fact, I don't buy for a moment that he would have been susceptible to a
Hillary Clinton-like come on. He didn't give a shit about political power.
He only wanted to party.
>It was a idiotic deal to make, and he didn't deserve what happened,
>but he could have refused.
There's no point in speculating that he could have refused something that
was done to him without his consent.
>It's not as though there aren't plenty of others exactly like him from
>whom Rossum could have found another dope.
It's possible that he wasn't the first they tried it on. It's highly likely
that he's not the last.
Adam H. Kerman
>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
>>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>Madelyn (Mellie/November) volunteered. She was grief-stricken, and
>>>>>wanted to get beyond the loss of her daughter (to cancer, as I recall.)
>>>>But how did November find Rossum? A plant in a support group, maybe?
>>>She was another of DeWitt's kids. All that Maddie tells Ballard is that
>>>Adelle came to her and explained that she could go to sleep for five
>>>years and wake up without the pain. Presumably, one of the doctors or
>>>other health workers familiar with her depression recommended her to
>>>Rossum.
>>Right. This goes back to my theory that Rossum is preying on people in
>>their weakest moments. In this case, the artificial situation is that she
>>was getting treated by a doctor who was paid by Rossum to look for people
>>like her, and not act in the patient's best interest.
>Doctors make arrangements to put people into experimental trials all the
>time.
Yes, they do. It's extremely common for doctors to receiving funding from
pharmaceutical research, giving them an incentive to refer patients. When
there is a conflict of interest, the doctor cannot be assumed to be acting
in the patient's best interest.
>It could have been perfectly innocent for all that we are told.
Not on this show. It's impossible to believe that anyone who regularly
interacts with Rossum on the outside, even if not aware of the greater
conspiracy, remains uncorrupted. Rossum must maintain control and would
likely use a bit of extortion, if necessary, if more extreme measures
are avoidable.
>She was genuinely depressed, and there is no reason to think that her
>doctors weren't trying to do their best for her.
Actually, we have not been told why Rossum even bothers to target people in
extreme emotional states, like her, like Victor.
>Heck, even DeWitt seemed to believe quite earnestly that Rossum and the
>Dollhouse were doing useful and good work.
Must be on some other program.
>So far, the only really corrupt doctor we have seen is Nolan, who put
>Priya into involuntary psychiatric care. And we saw how DeWitt reacted
>when she found out about that.
Yeah, she immediately released her when she learned the truth...
Oh, that's right, she sent her to the Attic.
Adam H. Kerman
How do you re-interpret speeding up Rossum's research as not harmful?
>>>She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>>>there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>maybe not.
>>She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
>She bottomed out when Victor (as whoever-he-was) put an abrupt end to
>their tryst and posed the comment/question that made clear to her how
>pathetic her life had become.
That doesn't make me want her to become a hero. I like her. She's evil.
>I wish that they'd given her reaction a bit more screen time, but it
>still seemed obvious to me that she broke at that point. And after a
>bit of self-pity with some good single malt, she was shocked out of
>herself by Boyd, at which point she started her return from her own
>little abyss's edge.
Maybe, or she was playing Boyd. I didn't like that scene.
Horace LaBadie
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> >Doctors make arrangements to put people into experimental trials all the
> >time.
>
> Yes, they do. It's extremely common for doctors to receiving funding from
> pharmaceutical research, giving them an incentive to refer patients. When
> there is a conflict of interest, the doctor cannot be assumed to be acting
> in the patient's best interest.
It's far more common for doctors to look for experimental trials that
can help a patient, to write to the FDA to allow a patient to take an
untried but promising drug or treatment, and for patients themselves to
look for and beg to be admitted to trials simply because they are
desperate.
> >It could have been perfectly innocent for all that we are told.
>
> Not on this show. It's impossible to believe that anyone who regularly
> interacts with Rossum on the outside, even if not aware of the greater
> conspiracy, remains uncorrupted. Rossum must maintain control and would
> likely use a bit of extortion, if necessary, if more extreme measures
> are avoidable.
There is no reason to think one way or the other about the motives of
the people who recommended that Maddie be part of a Rossum trial. Rossum
is, after all, the world's largest drug company.
> >She was genuinely depressed, and there is no reason to think that her
> >doctors weren't trying to do their best for her.
>
> Actually, we have not been told why Rossum even bothers to target people in
> extreme emotional states, like her, like Victor.
We don't need to be told. They are desperate, which makes them
susceptible to persuasion. ANd, of course, they are all highly
attractive, which is a prerequisite for Dolls.
> >Heck, even DeWitt seemed to believe quite earnestly that Rossum and the
> >Dollhouse were doing useful and good work.
>
> Must be on some other program.
No, she has said it several times, in contexts when it is clear that she
meant it. At one time, she obviously truly believed that Rossum was
doing good work, although not within the law. Somewhere along the line,
she became convinced that the ends justified the means. It has only been
recently that she has found out that they were up to something far
beyond a little illegal people trafficking.
> >So far, the only really corrupt doctor we have seen is Nolan, who put
> >Priya into involuntary psychiatric care. And we saw how DeWitt reacted
> >when she found out about that.
>
> Yeah, she immediately released her when she learned the truth...
>
> Oh, that's right, she sent her to the Attic.
No, she connived in Nolan's murder, and to have the crime covered up.
What show have you been watching?
Horace LaBadie
Excuse me? He was approached by Cindy at a party, and propositioned with
a clean slate and political power. That's exactly what the flashback
showed. He wanted something at that point in his life, but thought it
was impossible. She told him that it could be made to happen without any
effort at all. That would appeal to him.
> In fact, I don't buy for a moment that he would have been susceptible to a
> Hillary Clinton-like come on. He didn't give a shit about political power.
> He only wanted to party.
>
> >It was a idiotic deal to make, and he didn't deserve what happened,
> >but he could have refused.
>
> There's no point in speculating that he could have refused something that
> was done to him without his consent.
He could have refused to accept her offer.
>
> >It's not as though there aren't plenty of others exactly like him from
> >whom Rossum could have found another dope.
>
> It's possible that he wasn't the first they tried it on. It's highly likely
> that he's not the last.
It's a high maintenance operation to be running more than one, but not
out of the question. It's far easier to have Senators as clients, as
they have already shown. It's also been mentioned that they have people
who are sympathetic to them in every major government.
David Johnston
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:
Normal corporations can hire people right out of university who are
familiar with what they do. How does Rossum get a qualified
technician? And, more importantly, one stained by complicity before
they are qualified so they don't learn what the houses do and squawk?
Pete
>news:iIOdnQxG6KIcfLDW...@lmi.net...
>>
>> Sure was a heavy-duty processor cluster, though!
>>
>him to NOT refer to them as "mainframes".
True, but my impression (I haven't gone back to check) is that Echo
and the others used the word before they met him. Correct me if not.
(And I thought that clusters like Beowulf dated back to then, but I
looked it up and that dates from '94, so maybe not...(:-/)
-- Pete --
--
============================================================================
The address in the header is a Spam Bucket -- don't bother replying to it...
(If you do need to email, replace the account name with my true name.)
============================================================================
Dimensional Traveler
device. If that's correct all Rossum needs to do is start production.
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
Anlatt the Builder
>
> Yes, they do. It's extremely common for doctors to receiving funding from
> pharmaceutical research, giving them an incentive to refer patients. When
> there is a conflict of interest, the doctor cannot be assumed to be acting
> in the patient's best interest.
>
So what you're saying is that whoever referred Maddie - assuming a
doctor referred her, which is an assumption with no evidence
whatsoever - was acting just like a lot of doctors in the real world.
What's your point?
> >It could have been perfectly innocent for all that we are told.
>
> Not on this show. It's impossible to believe that anyone who regularly
> interacts with Rossum on the outside, even if not aware of the greater
> conspiracy, remains uncorrupted. Rossum must maintain control and would
> likely use a bit of extortion, if necessary, if more extreme measures
> are avoidable.
>
I have seen nothing on the show to imply that everyone who works with
Rossum nows they're doing something wrong, is corrupted, is extorted,
etc. A doctor could hear they havean experimental treatment for
otherwise intractable depression or PTSD, and refer the pateint. End
of story. That doesn't make the doctor corrupt. And it does not imply
that Rossum is not offering the patients a choice.
> >She was genuinely depressed, and there is no reason to think that her
> >doctors weren't trying to do their best for her.
>
> Actually, we have not been told why Rossum even bothers to target people in
> extreme emotional states, like her, like Victor.
Because Rossum has something to trade to them - essentially, a cure
for their condition - in exchange for five years as a Doll.
>
> >Heck, even DeWitt seemed to believe quite earnestly that Rossum and the
> >Dollhouse were doing useful and good work.
>
> Must be on some other program.
>
Nope.
Anlatt the Builder
> Anlatt the Builder <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Dec 20, 5:09 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> >>Horace LaBadie <hwlabadi...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
> >>>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>Madelyn (Mellie/November) volunteered. She was grief-stricken, and
> >>>>>wanted to get beyond the loss of her daughter (to cancer, as I recall.)
> >>>>But how did November find Rossum? A plant in a support group, maybe?
> >>>She was another of DeWitt's kids. All that Maddie tells Ballard is that
> >>>Adelle came to her and explained that she could go to sleep for five
> >>>years and wake up without the pain. Presumably, one of the doctors or
> >>>other health workers familiar with her depression recommended her to
> >>>Rossum.
> >>Right. This goes back to my theory that Rossum is preying on people in
> >>their weakest moments. In this case, the artificial situation is that she
> >>was getting treated by a doctor who was paid by Rossum to look for people
> >>like her, and not act in the patient's best interest.
> >Maddie may disagree with you that it was not in the best interest of
> >the patient.
>
> Well, we cannot know. Once the Doll architecture has been installed in one's
> brain, one is dead, as it was finally revealed to us in that episode with
> her and Perrin, that the re-installed original personality (not in Perrin's
> case) just re-creates you. Anyway, her original personality turned out to
> have some alterations so she'd continue to do Rossum's bidding.
>
You're overstating what was actually shown. What they showed us was
that there was still "Active Architecture" in the brain, which made
her susceptable to the Disruptor and made it easy to put her back in
the chair for another program. Your claim that the original person is
"dead," and that with their original personality reinstalled they're
not actually the same person, is basically a philosophical statement
that can't be proved or disproved. Every seven years we recycle all
the atoms in our body - are we still the same people?
> >And, depedning on how much he actually knew about the Dollhouse, the doctor
> >may disagree with you too. (He may not have understood everything that
> >being a Doll entailed.)
>
> I'll go futher than you have. I'll assume that the psychiatrist who identified
> her thought these were drug trials. There's no way to believe that he's not
> paid by Rossum, for that's how patients are found for drug trials.
>
Not always. Sometimes doctors are just aware of research going on.
> >In fact, the doctor - if he existed and was involved at all - may
> >have known nothing about the Dollhouse, and merely thought he was
> >referring someone to a place where they have a non-standard treatment
> >for depression.
>
> It's possible, but in the Doll-verse where there are no innocents, doubtful.
>
You're breaking the fourth wall to support your conclusion. The doctor
- if he exists at all, since we're just guessing about aspects of
Maddie's backstory - may not be an innocent at all; he may be a drug
addict who is blackmailing a nurse. There, he fits right into the
"Doll-verse." But that doesn't mean he knows he was doing something
wrong with respect to Maddie.
> >Or Maddie may have been recruited from a support group, or read an
> >article (with no mention of the Dollhouse) about a company treating
> >depression - and, once she showed up, was shunted to Adelle for an
> >offer.
> >I suspect that you would consider any way that Maddie found out about
> >the opportunity to be "artificial."
>
> Yes.
>
Well, then, the whole Doll-verse - and, for that matter, the whole
Real World - are artificial. What difference does it make?
Do you honestly believed that anyone who is referred to a drug test in
the Real World is being taken advantage of, exploited, and abused? If
so, you can certainly come to the same conclusion about the moral
stance of everyone in the Doll-verse. But the show has to take place
somewhere.
> >You're ignoring the fact that the people who work in the Dollhouse may
> >actually think that they are helping some folks - but at a great cost
> >that must be paid by these folks serving as Dolls for five years.
>
> Go with that thought for a moment. I can think of no one in the Dollhouse
> who could possibly think that, so tell me who you are thinking of.
I think Adelle and Topher are complicated characters, and that this is
something that, in some cases, they think is true. I think Adelle
needs to tell herself that. I think Topher doesn't care very much;
he's interested in the reseach and the toys, and considers the moral
questions to be outside his expertise. But he's learning.
> I can
> believe that certain people aware of the false reputation Rossum created
> for itself may refer patients to Rossum for treatment in good conscience.
>
> >Of course, that would distract from your fixed belief that Adelle is a
> >"villain" and never a "hero," when in fact she might be something a
> >little more complicated than either.
>
> Caroline is no hero either. Are we watching the same show? There are no
> heroes on it. The only 100% total innocent is Sierra.-
We're watching the same show. Are we reading the same posts? I never
said Caroline is a hero. Did anyone?
Ken from Chicago
"Jim Gysin" <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:hgmnep$g09$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The whole power play move by Adelle was very similar to Angel's move in the
fifth season of ANGEL where he made a bid for power--which his staff was
shocked by and thot he turned all evil--only to have the big reveal that it
was a play for power ... so he could use it for good.
Adelle may have made a play for power merely out of revenge against Rossum
or maybe she truly opposes them on ethical grounds. After all, she did have
a policy of protecting or at least minimizing risk to the actives in her
care.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Dimensional Traveler" <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4b2f21bd$0$1671$742e...@news.sonic.net...
There are blueprints and there are blueprints. The level of detail needed
for production may differ from prototype design, plus what ever unique
Topher shorthand he used in the schmatic.
Then again, it was several eps ago, Rossum, could have had a team of techs
decoding Topher's plan and codifying it for a test-run and / or
full-production run.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:qv2ui5hkmj97cq1ch...@4ax.com...
Hackers. Crackers. Cyber-pirates. Underworld. Darknet. The experts in
cracking biometric security from fingerprinting, retinal scans, etc.
Best are those medical school dropouts busted trying to hack a better grade
for themselves--or not busted ... yet.
-- Ken from Chicago
Adam H. Kerman
He was already dolled up with his old personality re-installed, with a bit
of ambition.
Adam H. Kerman
Oh, let's call that the Star Trek Transporter Personality Theory.
>>>And, depedning on how much he actually knew about the Dollhouse, the doctor
>>>may disagree with you too. (He may not have understood everything that
>>>being a Doll entailed.)
>>I'll go futher than you have. I'll assume that the psychiatrist who
>>identified her thought these were drug trials. There's no way to believe
>>that he's not paid by Rossum, for that's how patients are found for
>>drug trials.
>Not always. Sometimes doctors are just aware of research going on.
Rossum needs brains, lots and lots of 'em. They aren't relying on their
benign reputation for the vast majority of them.
>Do you honestly believed that anyone who is referred to a drug test in
>the Real World is being taken advantage of, exploited, and abused?
Do you know what informed consent means? Not every participant in the drug
trial gets the drug. Not every patient who gets the drug benefits from it.
It's not known who will be helped; that's what the experiment is for. Of
course that's exploitation. If the true risks are divulged, then it's
ethical. Nothing like that happened at Rossum.
>>>You're ignoring the fact that the people who work in the Dollhouse may
>>>actually think that they are helping some folks - but at a great cost
>>>that must be paid by these folks serving as Dolls for five years.
>>Go with that thought for a moment. I can think of no one in the Dollhouse
>>who could possibly think that, so tell me who you are thinking of.
>I think Adelle and Topher are complicated characters, and that this is
>something that, in some cases, they think is true. I think Adelle
>needs to tell herself that. I think Topher doesn't care very much;
>he's interested in the reseach and the toys, and considers the moral
>questions to be outside his expertise. But he's learning.
The cure is "We can reprogram you." If Adelle believes that's help, fine.
>>>Of course, that would distract from your fixed belief that Adelle is a
>>>"villain" and never a "hero," when in fact she might be something a
>>>little more complicated than either.
>>Caroline is no hero either. Are we watching the same show? There are no
>>heroes on it. The only 100% total innocent is Sierra.
>We're watching the same show. Are we reading the same posts? I never
>said Caroline is a hero. Did anyone?
We've all been saying the same thing since first season: It's a show
entirely without good guys. It's an interesting experiment in story
telling, unsuccessful of course.
Adam H. Kerman
>>>Doctors make arrangements to put people into experimental trials all the
>>>time.
>>Yes, they do. It's extremely common for doctors to receiving funding from
>>pharmaceutical research, giving them an incentive to refer patients. When
>>there is a conflict of interest, the doctor cannot be assumed to be acting
>>in the patient's best interest.
>It's far more common for doctors to look for experimental trials that
>can help a patient, to write to the FDA to allow a patient to take an
>untried but promising drug or treatment, and for patients themselves to
>look for and beg to be admitted to trials simply because they are
>desperate.
Maybe cancer patients. Here we're talking about mental patients.
Adam H. Kerman
>>Yes, they do. It's extremely common for doctors to receiving funding from
>>pharmaceutical research, giving them an incentive to refer patients. When
>>there is a conflict of interest, the doctor cannot be assumed to be acting
>>in the patient's best interest.
>So what you're saying is that whoever referred Maddie - assuming a
>doctor referred her, which is an assumption with no evidence
>whatsoever - was acting just like a lot of doctors in the real world.
>What's your point?
You may discover my point in what I wrote.
Adam H. Kerman
>Normal corporations can hire people right out of university who are
>familiar with what they do. How does Rossum get a qualified
>technician? And, more importantly, one stained by complicity before
>they are qualified so they don't learn what the houses do and squawk?
Good question. You'd think someone like Topher would have to be taken as a
child to assure that he utterly lacks morals.
Ken from Chicago
"Anlatt the Builder" <tir...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:29591445-78f2-40ff...@u36g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> s
> p
> a
> c
> e
>
> On the one hand, I'm enjoying the show quite a bit. I think it's
> because there are now characters - not just Echo, but Boyd and Topher
> and the rest - who are trying to accomplish something valuable, not
> just make "engagements" work out without any Actives getting killed.
And I think something like that could have been done in the single-episode
stories that would have worked on their own while providing character
development for Echo and tied into the overarcing plot:
Echo is special because she gives customers what they need.
Engagements are about providing clients what they want, and Echo's gift was
that she was the best at that but after multiple engagements Echo's gift
kicks into overdrive as she experiences deja vu, "Hey, wait, I already gave
the customer what they wanted, why are they back?" and starts to suss out
what they REALLY want, that is, what they really NEED.
--Client wants sex but needs love.
--Client wants prey but needs his father's respect.
--Client wants love but needs to stop denying and bargaining but learn to
get angry and grieve and finally accept his wife's death.
--Client wants a thief but needs to be content with life without have to
constantly seek thrills breaking into bank vaults.
--Client wants a bodyguard but needs drop the high-flying pop music scene
and get back to her roots in music, in playing, writing and singing the
songs that moved her and her (albeit her then smaller) fanbase.
1) The one-ep stories could have viewers wonder what does the client need
this week.
2) Meanwhile we see Echo building up a repoitoire of skills needed to be ...
a whole person ... not just a weapon.
3) It builds up the arc of going up against Rossum, because while Echo may
be great at providing what the client needs, she's wrecking Rossum's
business plan. A truly satisfied customer for them is NOT a repeat customer.
Like pop makers who make pop that only partially quenches your thirst, not
as well as water, so you end up buying more. Like car makers who make cars
that break down so you have to buy a new car--quickly. At first taking Echo
off repeat engagements work, but we could have seen her learning to suss out
what people need on first time basis.
The beauty part would be the part of Echo having control over it all Jarod,
The Pretender, could be optional, tho I would still opted for that from the
pilot ep and then work out her backstory in flashbacks. Whedon and crew
could have still told the same stories, same themes, same messages and yet
easier for audiences to get first time out.
> On the other hand, I think that, because the show has been cancelled,
> they're in a tremendous rush to cover a lot of ground quickly, and
> that has led them to write stories that don't really make any sense
> within the context of the show.
Yeah, too bad it wasn't this exciting all along.
> For example, if Rossum wanted Victor for a program of theirs, they
> would have simply requisitioned him. They own the Dollhouse. (As
> Adelle pointed out, Victor was transferred in from a different house.
> He could have been transferred out just as easily.)
>
> Kidnapping Victor immediately after he was released - when protocol
> dictates that he's being monitored and checked by his Dollhouse - was
> wildly conspicuous and would lead to trouble even if it wasn't "Echo's
> House." Maybe just ordering Victor to be turned over to them would
> have led to some other problem, but it still makes far more sense.
Maybe it was a PART of Rossum. They do seem to have a ... wee ... bit of an
in-fighting problem.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:hgneuj$b26$4...@news.albasani.net...
Please, or taken out of college. Some college students have no moral qualms
in surveys, no sense of shame or even shock.
-- Ken from Chicago
David Johnston
None of those people would be familiar with the technology.
Horace LaBadie
No, he was still partying at that point. She said so, and he remembered
it when his imprint broke down. Go back and watch again.
Horace LaBadie
In the past couple of months I have seen television spots for
Investigative Studies about COPD, Osteoporosis, Depression,
Osteoarthritis, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Dementia, and three of four
other diseases and disorders. They even offer free health screening and
compensation. Mental health studies are just as common as others, and
patients or their families and their doctors are just as eager to get
them help as cancer or heart disease patients.
Horace LaBadie
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
Google had to make "Don't be evil" its motto, just in case.
Jim Gysin
Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 9:23 PM:
Again, if it just happened a day or so ago in the show's timeline and it
was a part of her plan to bring down Rossum, then it's a reach to say
that much harm can be done in a day or two. Months or years! Sure.
But a day or two? Hardly even a hiccup, especially if she's successful
in destroying them.
>>>> She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>>>> there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>> that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>> maybe not.
>
>>> She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>
>> Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
>
> Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
what Adele or Topher has done. And as for Topher, his redemption arc
began back in the Priya-centric episode earlier this season.
>> She bottomed out when Victor (as whoever-he-was) put an abrupt end to
>> their tryst and posed the comment/question that made clear to her how
>> pathetic her life had become.
>
> That doesn't make me want her to become a hero. I like her. She's evil.
I'd be fine with it either way. Had they kept her evil, I would have
enjoyed her evil ways. And by allowing her to attempt to redeem
herself, I can enjoy watching her efforts on that front.
>> I wish that they'd given her reaction a bit more screen time, but it
>> still seemed obvious to me that she broke at that point. And after a
>> bit of self-pity with some good single malt, she was shocked out of
>> herself by Boyd, at which point she started her return from her own
>> little abyss's edge.
>
> Maybe, or she was playing Boyd. I didn't like that scene.
Could be. I'm still half-expecting to learn that Topher's plans were
altered before presenting them to the Rossum folks.
Jim Gysin
Dimensional Traveler sent the following on 12/21/2009 1:20 AM:
There are plans, and then there are final plans. There are blueprints,
and there are production blueprints. We just don't know. And for that
matter, we also don't know if those plans weren't modified before
presenting them to the Rossum people.
Jim Gysin
Ken from Chicago sent the following on 12/21/2009 2:32 AM:
> fifth season of ANGEL where he made a bid for power--which his staff was
> shocked by and thot he turned all evil--only to have the big reveal that it
> was a play for power ... so he could use it for good.
>
> Adelle may have made a play for power merely out of revenge against Rossum
> or maybe she truly opposes them on ethical grounds. After all, she did have
> a policy of protecting or at least minimizing risk to the actives in her
> care.
Right. And I've seen plenty of signs all season long of how both she
and Topher have been starting to see the errors of their ways. Whatever
happens, I'm sure that the resolution will occur on a faster timetable
than Joss et al would have liked, but given the show's cancellation, I
would rather see a rushed resolution than no resolution.
David Johnston
wrote:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that she had a plan to bring
down Rossum prior to crawling into a bottle.
JRStern
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Um, the guy was locked up in the Attic in 1993. It would have been error for
>him to NOT refer to them as "mainframes".
marginal usage even then, marginal usage even circa 1985 or whenever
Neuromancer was written. but no real replacement term I can think of.
J.
Pete B
JRS...@foobar.invalid says...
I might use it today - when "cloud" is too pretentious
Adam H. Kerman
How can he remember specifically when the Architecture was installed? It
doesn't seem logical that one's Handler would be resposible for recruitment.
Think about it: That's way too dangerous. If he can't be recruited for
some reason, then a Dollhouse staff member involved in Rossum's most
nefarious activities is exposed.
Adam H. Kerman
Fine. You've convinced me that Rossum's tentacles are everywhere.
Adam H. Kerman
. . . or now.
Adam H. Kerman
>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 9:23 PM:
>>Jim Gysin <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>Adam H. Kerman sent the following on 12/20/2009 3:35 AM:
>>>>Anlatt the Builder <tir...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Dec 19, 8:02 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>I suppose now that Adele has been retconned as a hero, that entire scene
>>>>>>was meant to distract us.
>>>>>That's a broad oversimplification of a character who deserves better.
>>>>>Adelle has not be "retconned into a hero" - she has simply taken sides
>>>>>against Rossum.
>>>>AFTER passing Topher's discovery on to them, which undoubtably speeded up
>>>>their research quite a bit?
>>>Didn't that *just* happen time-wise? How much harm could it have
>>>already done, really?
>>How do you re-interpret speeding up Rossum's research as not harmful?
>Again, if it just happened a day or so ago in the show's timeline and it
>was a part of her plan to bring down Rossum, then it's a reach to say
>that much harm can be done in a day or two. Months or years! Sure.
>But a day or two? Hardly even a hiccup, especially if she's successful
>in destroying them.
Adelle gave it to them because she's evil. Even if it was part of a plan,
it's utterly stupid to see how anything good comes out of given them the
very thing capable of destoying civilization.
>>>>>She may be motivated by idealism, or anger and revenge, or a belief that
>>>>>there would be no place for her in Rossum's future, or just a decision
>>>>>that she prefers the world as it is to Rossum's plans. Hero? Maybe,
>>>>>maybe not.
>>>>She damn well better have something evil in mind.
>>>Why? Don't you believe in redemption?
>>Not for her. Certainly not for Topher.
>I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
>includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
>what Adele or Topher has done.
You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
>And as for Topher, his redemption arc began back in the Priya-centric
>episode earlier this season.
Except he unredeemed his redemption when he assembled all that research
just because he was curious, knowing full well exactly what the consequences
were. Topher is evil.
>Could be. I'm still half-expecting to learn that Topher's plans were
>altered before presenting them to the Rossum folks.
Yes, we've been deliberately misled before, so it would be no surprise.
Adam H. Kerman
The only way they could be modified would be if Topher did it, which would
betray what we saw on screen. Anyway, even if Topher did it, it wouldn't
be much of a setback.
One Bit Shy
news:hgpc7s$evl$9...@news.albasani.net...
> Jim Gysin <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Dimensional Traveler sent the following on 12/21/2009 1:20 AM:
>>> From what we saw, it looked like Topher had created blueprints for the
>>> device. If that's correct all Rossum needs to do is start production.
>>
>>There are plans, and then there are final plans. There are blueprints,
>>and there are production blueprints. We just don't know. And for that
>>matter, we also don't know if those plans weren't modified before
>>presenting them to the Rossum people.
>
> The only way they could be modified would be if Topher did it, which would
> betray what we saw on screen. Anyway, even if Topher did it, it wouldn't
> be much of a setback.
I'm not expecting the plans to have been modified, but if they were, it
wouldn't necessarily have to be Topher that changed them.
Here's a piece of dialogue from Meet Jane Doe that may have slipped under
people's radar:
Harding: You think we're keeping secrets from you, Adelle. Haven't we
eliminated those from this house?
DeWitt: Of course. I was just curious. I had quite a scientific mind
before I was transferred here if you remember [not sure what the word is
here].
Harding: I do.
Evidently Adelle's long impatience with Topher's techno-babble has been
covering up actual knowledge. It seems that Adelle comes from the science
side of the operation and might very well be capable of modifying plans like
those.
OBS
Adam H. Kerman
>Here's a piece of dialogue from Meet Jane Doe that may have slipped under
>people's radar:
>Harding: You think we're keeping secrets from you, Adelle. Haven't we
>eliminated those from this house?
>DeWitt: Of course. I was just curious. I had quite a scientific mind
>before I was transferred here if you remember [not sure what the word is
>here].
>Harding: I do.
Thank you for remembering that. I thought she merely served tea.
Anlatt the Builder
> >I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
> >includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
> >what Adele or Topher has done.
>
> You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
>
>
This is an interesting comment, and I think it goes to how you are
trying to force the show into a Procrustean bed.
Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. He was also, by my standards, a
rapist - Sally Hemings was his slave, after all; the power imbalance
was nigh-on infinite, and she was in no position to say no to him.
And maybe that's the end of that story. Thomas Jefferson: slave owner
and rapist. Beyond redemption. The end.
But Jefferson and Hemings lived in a very different context than we
do. Their culture told them that slavery was acceptable - in fact,
necessary to someone in Jefferson's position. And he may not have
thought that what he was doing was rape. Sally Hemings may not have
thought so, either.
I don't think that makes it okay. I still think Jefferson did evil
things. But do I think the man should be considered beyond all
redemption? Or does context count?
The people in Dollhouse live in a different context than we do. They
live in a hypothetical world in which a persona - personality and
memories - can be recorded. New, novel personae can be created. A
persona can be downloaded into a living human being. Later his or her
original persona can be downlaoded into them. Or someone else.
In this counterfactual world, concepts we think of as nailed down in
the real world - concepts like identity, consent, slave, rape -
necessarily take on somewhat different meanings, because the
circumstances are so altered. If, for example, someone specifically
agrees to take on a new persona, knowing that that persona will
willingly have sex with another person, is that rape? Or, for that
matter - to use your conclusion about what happens when a persona is
downlaoded into a person - is that murder?
We can't turn to our legal system, or even our dictionaries, for
definitive answers to these questions, because they weren't designed
with these circumstances in mind. One of the purposes of the show is
to examine these issues - not by holding up hypothetical new
defintions, but by showing us the counterfactual circumstances in
action, and letting us come to our own conclusions.
We can say: it's sort of like agreeing to be roofied. Or, it's sort of
like indentured servitude. Or, it's sort of like death. But the
comparison is not exact in any of those cases. The show is describing
something new.
Personally, I think the Dollhouse is abetting rape, which to me is
evil. But I can imagine that people living in the world of the
Dollhouse might sincerely have different opinions on that. Different
characters might have different opinions from each other. The same
character might struggle with his or her opinion, and change it over
time. This is part of the drama.
It's easy - and, I think, superficial - to say: Adelle is abetting
rape. Therefore she is evil and beyond redemption. Therefore the show
is simply incorrect if it shows her doing something good, or being
heroic in some circumstance. "She better be planning something evil,"
you say - or else it's some kind of cheat.
But does that make any sense from the point of view of the characer?
She may not think she's abetting rape (even though I'm pretty sure she
is). She may think that she's doing the best she can to help as many
people as she can, within a corrupt world. She may think the relative
evil of the Dollhouse is acceptable (she's used to it), but the evil
that Rossum is planning isn't.
Just as Thomas Jefferson might have thought that slavery was
acceptable, but genocide wasn't.
Ask youself this: is a writer permitted to write a story in which
Thomas Jefferson does something heroic? Or is in fact The Hero? Would
you throw such a story against the wall because, after all, Jefferson
was a slave owner and a rapist, and having him be heroic is therefore
a cheat?
Mind you, I'm not making excuses for what Adelle and Topher have done.
Or even for what Jefferson did. I'm just trying to understand the
characters from within the context in which they live, not in the
context in which I live.
There are limits to this kind of reasoning, much of which has to do
with how close to real life the story is. Which is to say: anybody who
uses the Holocaust as the next example ends the discussion. But I've
read fiction in which some of the protagonists where pretty close to
genocidal, and yet still did some admirable things. And, as fiction,
some of these stories worked.
Adam H. Kerman
>>>I can't think of anyone who's completely beyond redemption, and that
>>>includes a lot of people in the real world who have done far worse than
>>>what Adele or Topher has done.
>>You know a lot of slave owners, do you?
>This is an interesting comment, and I think it goes to how you are
>trying to force the show into a Procrustean bed.
What an absurd thing to say. How could you fail to notice the show's
central theme? It was never prostitution, as a lot of tv critics stated.
>The people in Dollhouse live in a different context than we do. They
>live in a hypothetical world in which a persona - personality and
>memories - can be recorded. New, novel personae can be created. A
>persona can be downloaded into a living human being. Later his or her
>original persona can be downlaoded into them. Or someone else.
It's been my contention all along that the best they can do is install
a copy. Once the original is wiped from the brain, it's gone. It's why
it was my contention that the original being is dead.
>In this counterfactual world, concepts we think of as nailed down in
>the real world - concepts like identity, consent, slave, rape -
>necessarily take on somewhat different meanings, because the
>circumstances are so altered. If, for example, someone specifically
>agrees to take on a new persona, knowing that that persona will
>willingly have sex with another person, is that rape? Or, for that
>matter - to use your conclusion about what happens when a persona is
>downlaoded into a person - is that murder?
Do you think the show's central theme is an exploration of human freedom,
or what? The fact that they created technologies is just the hook to
get us into a modern day story about slavery and freedom.
>We can't turn to our legal system, or even our dictionaries, for
>definitive answers to these questions, because they weren't designed
>with these circumstances in mind. One of the purposes of the show is
>to examine these issues - not by holding up hypothetical new
>defintions, but by showing us the counterfactual circumstances in
>action, and letting us come to our own conclusions.
I'm quite satisfied with the well known definitions of all those terms.
As the show is written as entertainment for today's audience, then I'll
assume that we're supposed to view it in our terms.
Anyway, all the research and experimentation was performed in secret upon
individuals lacking their fully-informed consent, so one suspects that
Rossum isn't meant to be operating in a universe with different concept.
They aren't pushing the envelope. They've discarded it.
>We can say: it's sort of like agreeing to be roofied.
I don't think so. Individuals who are regular drug users are aware of how
they work.
>Or, it's sort of like indentured servitude.
Only for a few of them, like Echo, definitely not for Victor nor Sierra.
>Or, it's sort of like death. But the comparison is not exact in any of
>those cases. The show is describing something new.
Gosh, I don't agree with you. Science fiction is practically always
contemporary social commentary.
>Personally, I think the Dollhouse is abetting rape, which to me is
>evil.
I think rape is the least of it. I think slavery is worse, even if I'm
wrong about removing the original personality being murder.
>But I can imagine that people living in the world of the Dollhouse might
>sincerely have different opinions on that. Different characters might have
>different opinions from each other. The same character might struggle with
>his or her opinion, and change it over time. This is part of the drama.
But we only see characters who are Dolls or work for the Dollhouse or buy
the Dollhouse's services! We're not getting any unbiased discussion. These
are people with an utterly warped sense of morality. I do understand that
even within their warped personalities, they may understand "awful"
versus "less awful", without understanding good versus evil.
>It's easy - and, I think, superficial - to say: Adelle is abetting
>rape. Therefore she is evil and beyond redemption. Therefore the show
>is simply incorrect if it shows her doing something good, or being
>heroic in some circumstance. "She better be planning something evil,"
>you say - or else it's some kind of cheat.
Well, yeah. I find the character entertaining.
>But does that make any sense from the point of view of the characer?
>She may not think she's abetting rape (even though I'm pretty sure she
>is). She may think that she's doing the best she can to help as many
>people as she can, within a corrupt world. She may think the relative
>evil of the Dollhouse is acceptable (she's used to it), but the evil
>that Rossum is planning isn't.
I think it's the latter.
>Just as Thomas Jefferson might have thought that slavery was
>acceptable, but genocide wasn't.
I think Thomas Jefferson found slavery unacceptable but didn't free his
slaves until his death. For the author of the great concepts of American
freedom, he didn't practice what he preached. He's a contradiction. So
are all important historical figures. Any histories written of the 1990's,
I do expect that the attitudes of the time will be treated with derision.
>Ask youself this: is a writer permitted to write a story in which
>Thomas Jefferson does something heroic? Or is in fact The Hero?
As long as I never have to see that musical "1776" ever again.
>Would you throw such a story against the wall because, after all,
>Jefferson was a slave owner and a rapist, and having him be heroic is
>therefore a cheat?
Well, if it didn't fit into the known history of Jefferson, it might
still be entertaining.
>Mind you, I'm not making excuses for what Adelle and Topher have done.
I don't even want Adelle to get what's coming to her. I just don't expect
to be as entertained if she does something heroic.
>There are limits to this kind of reasoning, much of which has to do
>with how close to real life the story is. Which is to say: anybody who
>uses the Holocaust as the next example ends the discussion.
Hey! I wasn't going to Godwin the subthread.
>But I've read fiction in which some of the protagonists where pretty close
>to genocidal, and yet still did some admirable things. And, as fiction,
>some of these stories worked.
Hm.
Horace LaBadie
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> >No, he was still partying at that point. She said so, and he remembered
> >it when his imprint broke down. Go back and watch again.
>
> How can he remember specifically when the Architecture was installed?
Obviously, because he did. We have seen plenty of examples of Dolls and
Actives flashing back to events prior to their recruitment and to their
wiping.
>It
> doesn't seem logical that one's Handler would be resposible for recruitment.
> Think about it: That's way too dangerous. If he can't be recruited for
> some reason, then a Dollhouse staff member involved in Rossum's most
> nefarious activities is exposed.
Handlers are hardly irreplaceable. And people like Perrin have accidents
all the time. If the actual head of the Dollhouse can be involved in
recruiting, which we have seen happen, then there is nothing to prevent
a handler from being used in that capacity.
David Johnston
We have no reason to believe that memory was real.