Peggy Carter and the Howling Commandos

EGK

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Feb 4, 2015, 7:02:47 PM2/4/15

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Watching the latest episode of Agent Carter and the Howling Commandos, I got
to wondering about something I was curious about in the past.

I used to read Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos when I was a kid and I
know Marvel brought the Fury character forward in time for a variety of
other comics. I never read any of those but was there ever an explanation
for Fury suddenly being black and turning in to Samual L Jackson? I mean
besides the obvious wink and a nod to political correctness.

Is Jackson's Fury supposed to be an alternate universe and/or how do they
explain the fact there is no Sgt Fury in this TV show and the Captain
America movies? It appears Dugan leads the Commandos in those. Or do they
even bother with an explanation?

I read the wiki article on Nick Fury but it was about as clear as mud. Is
there a simpler explanation that ties the comics to the TV show and movies?

David Johnston

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Feb 4, 2015, 7:55:10 PM2/4/15

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On 2/4/2015 5:02 PM, EGK wrote:
> Watching the latest episode of Agent Carter and the Howling Commandos, I got
> to wondering about something I was curious about in the past.
>
> I used to read Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos when I was a kid and I
> know Marvel brought the Fury character forward in time for a variety of
> other comics. I never read any of those but was there ever an explanation
> for Fury suddenly being black and turning in to Samual L Jackson? I mean
> besides the obvious wink and a nod to political correctness.
>
> Is Jackson's Fury supposed to be an alternate universe

Yes. In fact it has an official designation. Where the default
universe for Marvel comics is Earth-616, the cinematic universe is
Earth-199999.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Earth-199999

and/or how do they
> explain the fact there is no Sgt Fury in this TV show and the Captain
> America movies? It appears Dugan leads the Commandos in those. Or do they
> even bother with an explanation?
>
> I read the wiki article on Nick Fury but it was about as clear as mud. Is
> there a simpler explanation that ties the comics to the TV show and movies?
>

Different universes. After all, in the comics, the Avengers have been
around and the worlds premier superteam for at least 20 years. And the
Fantastic Four, X-men and Spider-Man exist in the same setting.

As for the reason why Fury is now Samuel Jackson that has it's basis in
yet another universe, Earth 1610, the "Ultimate Universe" (so called
because the equivalent of the Avengers there are the Ultimates). Some
of the differences between 1610 and 616 are:

Captain America wears the costume we saw him wearing by the end of
Captain America, the First Avenger.

The alien species who are the biggest threat to Earth are not the
Skrulls. Instead they are the Chitauri. The Chitauri from the Avengers
movie aren't the same as the comic book Chitauri or the Skrulls, but
they did use the name

The Hulk was created by Banner deliberately trying to rediscover
Erskine's formula as was the case with the cinematic Hulk.

And Nick Fury happened to look exactly like Samuel Jackson. And when
Samuel Jackson found out about that, he got in touch with them and in
return for not suing their asses, got from them a commitment that should
there be a Nick Fury in the movies, that Nick Fury would be played by him.

EGK

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Feb 4, 2015, 8:13:31 PM2/4/15

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Thanks. Has there ever been an explanation for the second part of my
question? That is why there is no Sgt Fury in WWII that coincides with the
Samual Jackson Fury? Or was Dugan always supposed to be the leader of the
commandos in that universe?

I was looking at these wiki links where none of that Earth-1999999 stuff
appears to be mentioned at all though the Ultimate universe is. lol
Damn though. It sure is convoluted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Fury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Nick_Fury

The only reference to Samual Jackson is this:

In 2012, the six part series Battle Scars introduces Nick Fury's secret son,
Sgt. Marcus Johnson who is an African American and ends up losing one eye in
the series.[50] The character has been described as looking like Samuel L.
Jackson, just as the Nick Fury of the Ultimate Universe does.[51][52] Nick
Fury retires at the end of the series, and his son joins S.H.I.E.L.D. Upon
joining S.H.I.E.L.D., Johnson changes his name to his original birth name of
Nick Fury Jr., as he and Agent Coulson appear on the Helicarrier in the
final page.[53]

Ultimate Nick Fury
Main article: Ultimate Nick Fury

In the Ultimate Marvel Universe, General Nick Fury is African American, with
his look and personality tailored after actor Samuel L. Jackson. Jackson
went on to play the live-action adaptation of Nick Fury within the Marvel
Cinematic Universe.

anim8rFSK

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Feb 4, 2015, 8:37:15 PM2/4/15

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In article <77g5da585qmk9qf2k...@4ax.com>,

Here's the problem with trying to explain any of this - they've just
announced that they're blowing up both the Marvel Universe we know and
the alternate Ultimate Universe and kit bashing them into one horrid
mess, taking whatever they like from each. So we may have the white
immortal Nick Fury, or the black multigenerational Nick Fury, or some
combination of the two. We may get the Peter Parker Spider-Man, or the
latin Spider-Man from the other universe where Peter Parker is dead.

It's the worst idea in the history of comics (and that's saying some).

--
Wait - are you saying that ClodReamer was wrong, or lying?

David Johnston

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Feb 4, 2015, 8:39:13 PM2/4/15

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That there was no Sgt Fury in World War II is a natural outgrowth of him
being present in the 21st century and being Samuel Jackson. It would be
absurd for a black sergeant to command white troops in World War II, and
if he was there in some other capacity that would just require the
script to explain why by the time of the Avengers he's umpty-ump years
old and still pretty much fighting fit. "Another serum recipient" would
complicate things.

Or was Dugan always supposed to be the leader of the
> commandos in that universe?

Really Captain America was the leader of the Howlers based on the movie.
Dugan was next in line.

>
> I was looking at these wiki links where none of that Earth-1999999 stuff
> appears to be mentioned at all though the Ultimate universe is. lol
> Damn though. It sure is convoluted.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Fury
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Nick_Fury
>
> The only reference to Samual Jackson is this:
>
> In 2012, the six part series Battle Scars introduces Nick Fury's secret son,
> Sgt. Marcus Johnson who is an African American and ends up losing one eye in
> the series.[50] The character has been described as looking like Samuel L.
> Jackson, just as the Nick Fury of the Ultimate Universe does.[51][52] Nick
> Fury retires at the end of the series, and his son joins S.H.I.E.L.D. Upon
> joining S.H.I.E.L.D., Johnson changes his name to his original birth name of
> Nick Fury Jr., as he and Agent Coulson appear on the Helicarrier in the
> final page.[53]

The popularity of the movie character caused that.

EGK

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Feb 4, 2015, 11:17:31 PM2/4/15

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haha. All this kind of makes me glad I gave up on comics a few decades ago.

Sgt Fury and the Howling Commandos were a favorite when I was a kid. Seeing
them again in Agent Carter made me think they could make a good TV series
out of that comic but it would never fly now because of how they erased the
white Fury from the Marvel universe of TV and movies.

EGK

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Feb 4, 2015, 11:27:53 PM2/4/15

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I was just wondering how or if the comics ever addressed it. The Sgt Fury
and the howling commandos book is long gone but I didn't know if the Fury
from that still existed in the comics or not. I wasn't suggesting that the
Jackson Fury would be a black sgt in WWII. It would have been easy enough
if they had wanted to simply make them different characters with the same
last name. That's certainly a lot easier than all the convoluted
storylines they've come up with.

>Or was Dugan always supposed to be the leader of the
>> commandos in that universe?
>
>Really Captain America was the leader of the Howlers based on the movie.
> Dugan was next in line.

I remember that from the movie and while I thought it was a hoot to see the
commandos come to life, I never thought Captain America fit with them. It's
been decades but I don't remember Sgt Fury being part of the Marvel
superhero universe. The Fury character along with SHIELD apparently was
later on but I had long since quit reading them by that time.

I used to read quite a few WWII comics from the 60's and early 70's. DC had
more of them. Sgt Rock was a big name and one of my favorites was The
Haunted Tank in the anthology book, GI Combat.

A Friend

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Feb 5, 2015, 12:19:37 AM2/5/15

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In article <imr5dah9edvfjl70c...@4ax.com>, EGK

<m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> I was just wondering how or if the comics ever addressed it. The Sgt Fury
> and the howling commandos book is long gone but I didn't know if the Fury
> from that still existed in the comics or not. I wasn't suggesting that the
> Jackson Fury would be a black sgt in WWII. It would have been easy enough
> if they had wanted to simply make them different characters with the same
> last name. That's certainly a lot easier than all the convoluted
> storylines they've come up with.

The Nick Fury who was in WW2 ran SHIELD twenty years or so later. I
saw something around the turn of the century that had Fury and Dum-Dum
Dugan living into their 100s thanks to some secret potion or force or
something. It all seemed absolutely ridiculous. (In my own reading
time, the 1960s, the not-yet-decrepit Fury and the Howling Commandos
went off to Vietnam to fight and WAHOOOO! for a little bit.)

There's no reason why the original Fury couldn't be the modern Fury's
father or grandfather.

anim8rFSK

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Feb 5, 2015, 1:31:47 AM2/5/15

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In article <imr5dah9edvfjl70c...@4ax.com>,

But that's exactly what they did with the white Fury. He had a dose of
the Infinity formula that kept him young. IIRC they played fast and
loose with the other commandos as to whether they'd been juiced ... they
seemed to be older than Fury but younger than they should of been.

Of course this wasn't a big deal in 1964, when they weren't even 20
years past WW2. Hell, half the Fantastic Four served in WW2 with Fury.
As the years went on it obviously became more problematic.

One of the animated shows presented an alternate world war where it was
Hydra instead of Nazis, which kept them from worrying about swastikas,
and also spared them specifying a year.

>
> I was just wondering how or if the comics ever addressed it. The Sgt Fury
> and the howling commandos book is long gone but I didn't know if the Fury
> from that still existed in the comics or not.

He's supposedly retired, but still keeps his hand in. He was in
'Original Sin' in 2014. He's old now though.

I wasn't suggesting that the
> Jackson Fury would be a black sgt in WWII. It would have been easy enough
> if they had wanted to simply make them different characters with the same
> last name. That's certainly a lot easier than all the convoluted
> storylines they've come up with.
>
> >Or was Dugan always supposed to be the leader of the
> >> commandos in that universe?
> >
> >Really Captain America was the leader of the Howlers based on the movie.
> > Dugan was next in line.
>
> I remember that from the movie and while I thought it was a hoot to see the
> commandos come to life, I never thought Captain America fit with them. It's
> been decades but I don't remember Sgt Fury being part of the Marvel
> superhero universe. The Fury character along with SHIELD apparently was
> later on but I had long since quit reading them by that time.

You mustn't have read Fury very long. :D
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos began in May of 1963, and Nick Fury
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. debuted in August of 1965.

>
> I used to read quite a few WWII comics from the 60's and early 70's. DC had
> more of them. Sgt Rock was a big name and one of my favorites was The
> Haunted Tank in the anthology book, GI Combat.

Fury and The HCs and Captain America costarred in comics in the 60s,
although sparsely.

http://www.comicsbulletin.com/main/sites/default/files/column-covers/SF01
3.jpg

David Johnston

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Feb 5, 2015, 1:52:40 AM2/5/15

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Marvel, unlike DC never throws anything away. All of the history is
still there no matter how little sense it makes although sometimes it
get shunted into another universe. Even the Generic Hero exists out
there in a universe set aside for his generic heroics although they
never told us what happened after he defeated the Generic Villain.
Apart of course from him kissing the Generic Girlfriend. I like to
think they gave birth to 2.5 children. So yeah, Nick Fury and the
Howling Commandos wahooed through World War II, and Nick went on to be
an insanely old superspy.

I wasn't suggesting that the
> Jackson Fury would be a black sgt in WWII. It would have been easy enough
> if they had wanted to simply make them different characters with the same
> last name.

And first name.

That's certainly a lot easier than all the convoluted
> storylines they've come up with.

Eh, not so much. It's kind of a rule of writing that you never have two
characters with the same name.

>
>> Or was Dugan always supposed to be the leader of the
>>> commandos in that universe?
>>
>> Really Captain America was the leader of the Howlers based on the movie.
>> Dugan was next in line.
>
> I remember that from the movie and while I thought it was a hoot to see the
> commandos come to life, I never thought Captain America fit with them. It's
> been decades but I don't remember Sgt Fury being part of the Marvel
> superhero universe. The Fury character along with SHIELD apparently was
> later on but I had long since quit reading them by that time.

I'm not sure about that. Nick Fury Agent of SHIELD debuted in 1968,
during the tail end of the run of "The Man From UNCLE" which inspired it.

EGK

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Feb 5, 2015, 10:32:33 AM2/5/15

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Like I said, I was a kid. I read quite a few but it's not like I remember
them well. The ones I remember reading were about WWII and fighting the
Nazis. It's possible I did read that Captain America comic you post a
picture of below but simply blocked it out. lol I never read the Nick
Fury, Agent of Shield book at all. I think even at the time I thought it
was stupid to have a WWII commando unit in the same universe with
superheros. "Afriend" just pointed out they had them go fight in Vietnam
too but I don't remember that at all either.

>Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos began in May of 1963, and Nick Fury
>Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. debuted in August of 1965.
>>
>> I used to read quite a few WWII comics from the 60's and early 70's. DC had
>> more of them. Sgt Rock was a big name and one of my favorites was The
>> Haunted Tank in the anthology book, GI Combat.
>
>Fury and The HCs and Captain America costarred in comics in the 60s,
>although sparsely.
>
>http://www.comicsbulletin.com/main/sites/default/files/column-covers/SF01
>3.jpg

I remember the Sgt Rock and DC books in general tending to be more
realistic. Rock in particular was like the TV show Combat. They probably
bastardized all those characters too and had them fighting aliens alongside
Superman for all I know. uggghh

Even as a kid I never liked it when comicbook writers would insert real-life
people or events into the superhero universe. I didn't mind the general
history or locations being the same but when they'd insert real life events
It would take me right out of the fantasy.

EGK

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Feb 5, 2015, 10:39:18 AM2/5/15

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On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 23:52:33 -0700, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

>On 2/4/2015 9:27 PM, EGK wrote:

>I wasn't suggesting that the
>> Jackson Fury would be a black sgt in WWII. It would have been easy enough
>> if they had wanted to simply make them different characters with the same
>> last name.
>
>And first name.
>
>That's certainly a lot easier than all the convoluted
>> storylines they've come up with.
>
>Eh, not so much. It's kind of a rule of writing that you never have two
>characters with the same name.

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Feb 5, 2015, 4:44:16 PM2/5/15

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EGK sent the following on 02/04/2015 at 10:17 PM:

Not all comics are lame/stupid superhero comics. There are *lots* of
good comics being made right now. I honestly can't remember a better
time to be a comic book fan.

EGK

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Feb 5, 2015, 4:58:56 PM2/5/15

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On Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:44:12 -0600, "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid>
wrote:

>EGK sent the following on 02/04/2015 at 10:17 PM:
>> On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 18:37:12 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Here's the problem with trying to explain any of this - they've just
>>> announced that they're blowing up both the Marvel Universe we know and
>>> the alternate Ultimate Universe and kit bashing them into one horrid
>>> mess, taking whatever they like from each. So we may have the white
>>> immortal Nick Fury, or the black multigenerational Nick Fury, or some
>>> combination of the two. We may get the Peter Parker Spider-Man, or the
>>> latin Spider-Man from the other universe where Peter Parker is dead.
>>>
>>> It's the worst idea in the history of comics (and that's saying some).
>>
>> haha. All this kind of makes me glad I gave up on comics a few decades ago.
>
>Not all comics are lame/stupid superhero comics. There are *lots* of
>good comics being made right now. I honestly can't remember a better
>time to be a comic book fan.

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Feb 6, 2015, 1:06:36 PM2/6/15

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anim8rFSK sent the following on 02/05/2015 at 03:28 PM:

Wait--who, what? The guy who was haunted by Dobermans?

Dano

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Feb 6, 2015, 1:16:59 PM2/6/15

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"EGK" wrote in message news:3qp7da5a8262pomg1...@4ax.com...

========================

I'm really old. I was paying 12 cents. Still regret auctioning off my
collection as a teenager for a charity event. Good cause anyway...but they
would bring quite a bit more today for that charity.

BTR1701

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Feb 6, 2015, 1:33:35 PM2/6/15

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In article <mb2vp9$5gf$2...@news.albasani.net>,

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> EGK sent the following on 02/05/2015 at 03:58 PM:

> > I have read some of the adult comics since but they don't even call them
> > comics anymore. Nowadays they're "graphic novels". I assume to justify
> > the price lol
>
> Graphic novels are not the same thing as comic books.

Okay, Sheldon. ;-)

Jim G.

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Feb 6, 2015, 2:00:45 PM2/6/15

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BTR1701 sent the following on 02/06/2015 at 12:35 PM:

From the little I've seen of him, Sheldon even makes *me* seem manly.
And ungeeky.

anim8rFSK

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Feb 6, 2015, 2:34:18 PM2/6/15

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In article <mb2vr9$5gf$4...@news.albasani.net>,

He thought the Dobermans were Greek Gods.

anim8rFSK

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Feb 6, 2015, 2:42:20 PM2/6/15

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In article <mb2vq6$5gf$3...@news.albasani.net>,

"Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> anim8rFSK sent the following on 02/05/2015 at 04:56 PM:
> > In article <mb0o5k$s7c$1...@news.albasani.net>,
> > "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> anim8rFSK sent the following on 02/04/2015 at 07:37 PM:
> >>> We may get the Peter Parker Spider-Man, or the
> >>> latin Spider-Man from the other universe where Peter Parker is dead.
> >>
> >> Or one of the 13,185 other lame Spider-People we're meeting in the
> >> gawdawful Spider-verse arc.
> >
> > I guess I'll actually read Spider-Gwen.
>
> Personally, I think that Peter's crazy if he's not tapping Cindy on a
> regular basis when this is all over.
>
> > Goddamn you Gerry Conway and JMS.
> >
> > Goddamn you both straight to Hell.
>
> Cindy >>> Gwen when you factor in the fact that Cindy and Peter actually
> have something important in common.
>
> Beyond that, I still can't blame writers at Marvel (or DC, for that
> matter) for story lines. Ultimately, those things either come down from
> the editors and executive editors above or else they're *approved* by
> those higher-ups in those cases where the writer is actually the owner
> of a given story arc idea. In the present case, did Conway ever take
> personal ownership of Gwen's death, or was it an edict from above that
> he had to script?

Conway claimed he came up with it and ran it past Stan. Stan says he's
lying, that the first he ever knew of it was when he opened the
published book, and wished they hadn't done it (he said that to me
personally). He also said that he was okay with the Gwen clone business
(which was very early on at the time) because while it might not be the
best solution, at least she was still out there somewhere.

Decades later Conway's claiming Romita came up with it. I think he's
lying the way JMS is about Sins Past. In fact I *know* they're both
lying; they both claimed credit when they thought it was going to be
well received, and both denied it when they found out how horribly wrong
they were. We just don't know which is the lie.

Conway could go either way, although I'm inclined to believe he's at
fault, since his excuse about Romita didn't surface for decades. I'm
much more certain JMS is at fault, as his retractions and bizarre tales
of how it went down are contradictory and don't make any sense at all.

anim8rFSK

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Feb 6, 2015, 2:44:04 PM2/6/15

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In article <mb2vp9$5gf$2...@news.albasani.net>,

Larry Niven (correcting me when I slightly misquoted him):
<Larry> actually, it's "You can't read a graphic novel in the sauna. The
glue melts. Staples don't."

anim8rFSK

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Feb 6, 2015, 2:44:51 PM2/6/15

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In article <atropos-65369D...@news.giganews.com>,

Of course, like Ian, Sheldon is wrong about everything, except Neal
DeGrasshole Tyson.

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Feb 6, 2015, 3:46:07 PM2/6/15

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EGK sent the following on 02/06/2015 at 01:47 PM:

> On Fri, 06 Feb 2015 12:44:02 -0700, anim8rFSK <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <mb2vp9$5gf$2...@news.albasani.net>,
>> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> EGK sent the following on 02/05/2015 at 03:58 PM:
>>>>

>>>> I can't imagine being a comic-book fan and a kid at the prices they charge
>>>> now though. I stopped reading comics when they were selling for about 35c
>>>> an issue I think.
>>>
>>> Cost can definitely become an issue in a hurry, but that's a different
>>> matter. I just cringe when someone implies (or worse) that superhero
>>> comics represent everything that's available from comic books.
>>>
>>>> I have read some of the adult comics since but they don't even call them
>>>> comics anymore. Nowadays they're "graphic novels". I assume to justify
>>>> the
>>>> price lol
>>>
>>> Graphic novels are not the same thing as comic books.
>>
>> Larry Niven (correcting me when I slightly misquoted him):
>> <Larry> actually, it's "You can't read a graphic novel in the sauna. The
>> glue melts. Staples don't."
>
> hah. I dont know the difference but aren't both available in digital format
> now? That would render the glue vs staples moot.
>
> I have read and caught up with The Walking Dead but in digital format. I
> guess that's a comic? I also read Kick-Ass in digital format and that's
> apparently a graphic novel. I don't see much of a difference. Or is the
> comic a continuing story while a graphic novel is self-contained?

One way to look at it would be to say that comic books are more like
television (episodic, with some multi-episodic arcs) whereas graphic
novels are more like movies. A four- to six-issue story arc from a comic
book title will usually become what's called a trade paperback (TPB)
that will be published after the arc's run in individual comic book
form, but that's still different from a graphic novel.

Some comic book fans I know prefer to wait for the TPBs, which is a
cheaper option for keeping up with things while others (like myself)
prefer individual comics, both for the not-waiting aspect of things and
for the extras (usual supplemental material) that are often included
*only* in the individual books as an incentive to *not* wait for the TPBs.

Jim G.

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Feb 6, 2015, 5:38:42 PM2/6/15

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anim8rFSK sent the following on 02/06/2015 at 01:42 PM:

So they've all been misremembering because of the fog of comics?

anim8rFSK

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Feb 6, 2015, 6:28:02 PM2/6/15

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In article <mb3fpf$3ta$2...@news.albasani.net>,

The fog of being a lousy writer.

anim8rFSK

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Feb 6, 2015, 6:30:00 PM2/6/15

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In article <mb394r$nan$8...@news.albasani.net>,

Actually I'd say the news is more tragic. Marvel's blowing up and
kitbashing together the remains of both 616 and U, making a horrible
mess no one will be able to explain, and DC is blowing up 52 and making
an even more horrible mess where they're bragging "continuity will take
a back seat to story telling'

anim8rFSK

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Feb 6, 2015, 7:24:57 PM2/6/15

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In article <anim8rfsk-87F7C...@news.easynews.com>,

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/02/06/new-books-new-creative-teams-the-
complete-list-of-new-and-continuing-dc-comics

Look at that list! It's way too long, and full of characters that don't
*deserve* their own book.

Dimensional Traveler

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Feb 7, 2015, 1:01:11 AM2/7/15

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I always figured that "graphic novels" were either: 1) a comic book that
was successful enough that they republished it as a collection with a
sturdier cover; or 2) someone's attempt at being pompous and saying "I'd
never work on a comic book".

--
Veni, vidi, snarki.

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Feb 9, 2015, 7:09:45 PM2/9/15

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anim8rFSK sent the following on 02/06/2015 at 05:27 PM:

> In article <mb3fpf$3ta$2...@news.albasani.net>,
> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rFSK sent the following on 02/06/2015 at 01:42 PM:
>>> In article <mb2vq6$5gf$3...@news.albasani.net>,
>>> "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Personally, I think that Peter's crazy if he's not tapping Cindy on a
>>>> regular basis when this is all over.
>>>>

Fog. Weed smoke. Tomato, tomahto.