JMS ( babylon 5 ) experiences the stress of success
video...@yahoo.com
JMS' shoes. All these people coming to me and asking me to do tons of
work? Sounds exciting but also stressful at the same time.
From: jms...@aol.com
Date: 25 Jul 2006 23:29:50 -0700
Lines: 65
I am living in such strange times right now. So I figured I'd share
them.
Prior to the announcement of "Changeling," my film agent tried to get
me to understand what would happen in the aftermath of that
announcement, even though he said "you really won't get it until you're
in it."
I had no idea.
See, there's a real class structure to this industry. A list directors
only buy scripts from A list writers. That's kind of the rule, with
very few exceptions. I've been working in the TV business for over
twenty years, but in features I'm kind of an unknown equation. Always
have been, mainly because I really haven't sought it out much; I figure
films are like going to Vegas, you can invest years in one shot at the
dice. So I stick to TV. I thus have not been in that class of A list
writer. Nowhere near.
When Imagine and Ron Howard bought that script, the effect was
electric. Suddenly everybody in town wanted to know who the hell was
this guy they'd never heard of who just sold a script to Howard and, in
essence, jumped the line from "who?" to A-list without much in-between.
Twenty years in TV, now suddenly an overnight success.
Within hours of the announcement, every studio in town was calling my
agent to get a copy of the script. As it got read, they started
calling to set up meetings. Not us calling them. Them calling us.
And then the offers started. Rewrite offers. Original film offers.
Adaptations. I've had no less than one and in many cases two or three
studio meetings every day for the last several weeks, and my calendar
is one big mass of black type for the next four weeks. A big-budget
feature that Sony wants me to rewrite because it has to go into
production fast, one that Universal wants developed, on and on and
on...all I have to do is say yes to whichever ones I want and they're
mine. Everything I've ever written is suddenly being pored over and
optioned.
I have never seen anything like it. I've read about this sort of
thing, but to experience it personally is...strange, so strange. The
stuff I've had out there before, the novels and short stories and the
like, are all exactly what they were before this...the words didn't
change on the page, the stories didn't alter, but suddenly the
*context* in which they are being seen has changed radically.
I'm being very, very careful and very selective in what I say yes to,
because I want to make sure whatever I take on adds to rather than
subtracts from the momentum we've now achieved.
The really odd thing is that I'm not running around, jumping up and
down, celebrating or hooting or hollaring or any of that. It's moved
me in the other direction, I've gotten really, really quiet, and
careful. It's like all of my antennae are up. Everybody around me is
thrilled, and can't figure out why I'm being so reserved. I'm not
really sure myself, to be honest. Just a strange sort of wariness,
like when I'd move to a new neighborhood as a kid and I'd go quiet
while I sussed out the area.
Odd. Nothing bad, it's all to the good, lord knows. Just odd. Very
odd.
jms
.
Alison Hopkins
<video...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1153962180.0...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> All these people coming to me and asking me to do tons of
> work?
They want you to clean MORE toilets? Blimey.
ALi
shawn
Or to make more movies and more TV shows and help fix up other movies
that have a poor script. Not a bad deal if you can get it. The one
thing that's for certain is JMS won't be a starving artist. (Though I
doubt he has been in that position for a long time.)
Alison Hopkins
"shawn" <nanof...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:of6ic25oqdmklemvg...@4ax.com...
Writer's Guild minimum was around $28K per episode at B5 time. One hundred
of those, yes? Do the maths. :)
Ali
hunt...@earthlink.net
Less pimping of self, Joe. More dialogue polishing.
rwgib...@gmail.com
hunt...@earthlink.net wrote:
> More JMS self-promotion.
>
> Less pimping of self, Joe. More dialogue polishing.
No kidding. And figure what'll happen the first seven or eight times
the director decides to "clean up" his exposition...
RWG (which he never had to worry about on B5, seeing as he was the head
honcho)
junior-kun
rwgib...@gmail.com wrote:
> hunt...@earthlink.net wrote:
> > More JMS self-promotion.
> >
> > Less pimping of self, Joe. More dialogue polishing.
>
> No kidding. And figure what'll happen the first seven or eight times
> the director decides to "clean up" his exposition...
If you think he's always particular about others screwing around with
his stories, you haven't been reading his comic book work.
(grumble) Another fricking sellout.
Warchild
hunt...@earthlink.net wrote:
> More JMS self-promotion.
>
> Less pimping of self, Joe. More dialogue polishing.
Success in JMS chosen field requires self-promotion. Promotion is the
life-blood of the entertainment industry. Don't blame JMS for taking
full advantage of his new situation.
Paul Harper
No problem with that. But call it that.
Don't pretend you're "doing it for the fans" which is a load of
bollocks.
Paul.
tony_becky_mikey_verizon_news
"Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
news:vs0jc25oa7cphq7i7...@4ax.com...
Paul,
I am starting to see your point here.. You are envious of the guys
talents.. You can NEVER seem to agree that maybe the guy (JMS) has done
something right.. Ohh yes, you admit to liking Babylon 5, but yet the guy
who made it is not allowed to be prosperous and also have fans who
appreciate his drive to keep the product as he saw it and created it??
Come on, why don't you just admit it.. I for one am quite envious of his
writing skills and ability to be working on all the stuff he is..
But then again, I am one who is in touch with reality, you are off here,
with your little clique..
Paul Harper
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>"shawn" <nanof...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:of6ic25oqdmklemvg...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:12:22 +0100, "Alison Hopkins"
>> <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><video...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1153962180.0...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>> All these people coming to me and asking me to do tons of
>>>> work?
>>>
>>>They want you to clean MORE toilets? Blimey.
>>
>> Or to make more movies and more TV shows and help fix up other movies
>> that have a poor script. Not a bad deal if you can get it. The one
>> thing that's for certain is JMS won't be a starving artist. (Though I
>> doubt he has been in that position for a long time.)
>
>Writer's Guild minimum was around $28K per episode at B5 time. One hundred
>of those, yes? Do the maths. :)
$2,800,000 - as a mimumum, plus whatever fees as Exec. Producer - buys
an awful lot of kitty litter...
Paul.
--
. Bill Maher: "Tulips aren't flowers, they're gay onions"
. A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
. Is there a moron carrot above? Have you replied to it? Are you sure?
. EMail: Unless invited to, don't; it's likely to be automatically deleted.
rwgib...@gmail.com
I've worked in comics. At least when your editor/publisher gets
involved it's usually something to do with the bottom line, not about
who's ego is bigger...
RWG (Hollywood directors make changes just because they can)
Alison Hopkins
"tony_becky_mikey_verizon_news" <tony_bec...@verizon.net> wrote in
message news:u9gyg.14055$yN3.13446@trnddc04...
>
> I am starting to see your point here.. You are envious of the guys
> talents.. You can NEVER seem to agree that maybe the guy (JMS) has done
> something right.. Ohh yes, you admit to liking Babylon 5, but yet the guy
> who made it is not allowed to be prosperous and also have fans who
> appreciate his drive to keep the product as he saw it and created it??
>
Of course he is. As long as he does not exploit those fans. I can think of
any number of creative talents who make a fortune, but do not act in the way
jms does.
Ali
Paul Harper
tony_becky_mikey_verizon_news wrote:
> I am starting to see your point here..
I doubt it, but until I can work out a way of kilfiltering your drivel
on Google as well as on my home machines, you're welcome to try...
>You are envious of the guys talents..
(That would be "guy's", I assume, unless he's a team)
>You can NEVER seem to agree that maybe the guy (JMS) has done
> something right.. Ohh yes, you admit to liking Babylon 5, but yet the guy
> who made it is not allowed to be prosperous and also have fans who
> appreciate his drive to keep the product as he saw it and created it??
No, I am not envious of his talents. He's a good story writer, but his
dialogue is some of the shittiest exposition I have every had to listen
to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
None of his characters ever *talk* to each other. They always
pontificate. It's terrible pretentious claptrap most of the time, and a
large part of the reason that Babylon 5 never hit the mainstream.
> Come on, why don't you just admit it.. I for one am quite envious of his
> writing skills and ability to be working on all the stuff he is..
Having seen your writing skills here, I am not surprised.
> But then again, I am one who is in touch with reality, you are off here,
> with your little clique..
Yeah, right, whatever you say. You live your reality, junior, you go
live your dream...
<guffaws>
Paul.
Alison Hopkins
<Troy....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154087181.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I'm beginning to think Alison is a double-alias of Paul.
> They think alike (dislike jms).
> Write alike.
> And often post within minutes of one another in the same thread.
>
> (Of course I could be wrong, but given Paul's history of alias
> morphing, I suspect I'm right.)
>
>
Damn, outed. Hey Paul, got any decent pics of me anyplace still?
Troy, you idiotic little toad, do a google on me and see what you get.
Including the posts where I slam Paul for being a pillock. Or, better still,
my history of running cons with jms (and others) as a guest. I first met the
man in 1992, so I do know a little bit about him. And Paul, come to that.
Ali
junior-kun
And when he was working on Jeremiah, the studio made all sorts of
suggestions that I'm sure they thought would increase the ratings, and
he rioted. Of course, it wasn't on a comic book he grew up reading, so
different standards of artistic integrity might apply.
I have no doubt that Marvel editorial is well intentioned, but in JMS's
case, I think your distinction is rather meaningless. JMS's Spider-man
and Fantastic Four are probably at least 25% plotted by editorial.
He's basically stated that he considers his job to be to write stories
based on whatever criteria Marvel aks for.
Sellout might not be the best term, since a sellout might be doing it
for the money or career opportunity, and neither situation applies to
JMS. Throwing out your artistic standards because its fun to write
Spider-man seems somehow worse.
JMS is hardly the only talented comic book creator who offends in this
regard.
Paul Harper
Troy....@gmail.com wrote:
> Alison Hopkins wrote:
> > my history of running cons with jms (and others) as a guest. I first met the
And he's met me, too, when I conducted a rousing song in front of him
at Blackpool 1996. He hid under his jacket as Babblings sang for him
"Delenne, Delenne, Delenne, Den, Den.." (etc.) to the theme of the
William Tell Overture. What a larf it was...
There are pictures on the InterWeb somewhere.
> Oh okay. So I guessed wrong. (Nobody's perfect; not me; not you.)
But especially you.
Paul.
Paul Harper
Alison Hopkins wrote:
> <Troy....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154087181.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > I'm beginning to think Alison is a double-alias of Paul.
> > They think alike (dislike jms).
> > Write alike.
> > And often post within minutes of one another in the same thread.
> >
> > (Of course I could be wrong, but given Paul's history of alias
> > morphing, I suspect I'm right.)
> >
> Damn, outed. Hey Paul, got any decent pics of me anyplace still?
<grin> Yeah, but you made me promise not to tell anyone about them.
Technically, I think they're still illegal, at best immoral, and at any
time bound to cause a sore back.
Oh. Not THOSE pictures. Ah. Sorry.
Paul.
Alison Hopkins
Damn. I was quite proud of those.
Ali
Paul Harper
Troy....@gmail.com wrote:
> Paul Harper wrote:
> >
> > $2,800,000 - as a mimumum, plus whatever fees as Exec. Producer - buys
> > an awful lot of kitty litter...
>
The ability to do infant-level maths does not make one a stalker or
hater.
Paul.
Paul Harper
> > to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
> > fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
>
We have progress. At least in that posting you admit you don't know
what you are talking about.
And anyone who thinks that...
"A mote it is to trouble the mind's eye. In the most high and palmy
state of Rome, a little ere the mightiest Julius fell, the graves stood
tenantless, and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman
streets; as stars with trains of fire and dews of blood, disasters in
the sun; and the moist star upon whose influence Neptune's empire
stands was sick almost to doomsday with eclipse."
is comparable to...
"Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
Has lost his mind some considerable distance beyond redemption.
Paul.
Paul Harper
Quite right too, even if it did take some explaining to the ambulance
people.
Paul.
Moyra J. Bligh
>
>tony_becky_mikey_verizon_news wrote:
>> Come on, why don't you just admit it.. I for one am quite envious of his
>> writing skills and ability to be working on all the stuff he is..
>
>Having seen your writing skills here, I am not surprised.
*snicker*
I keep wondering if this guy/girl/guy? has made it out of grade
school.
--
Moyra
mo...@zlatna.com
Alison Hopkins
It was the cute young fireman I felt the most sorry for. Well, that and
lust, of course.
Ali
Paul Harper
Alison Hopkins wrote:
> "Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
> news:1154092997.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Alison Hopkins wrote:
> >> "Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
> >> news:1154092216....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > Alison Hopkins wrote:
> >
> >> >> Damn, outed. Hey Paul, got any decent pics of me anyplace still?
> >> >
> >> > <grin> Yeah, but you made me promise not to tell anyone about them.
> >> > Technically, I think they're still illegal, at best immoral, and at any
> >> > time bound to cause a sore back.
> >> >
> >> > Oh. Not THOSE pictures. Ah. Sorry.
> >> >
> >> Damn. I was quite proud of those.
> >
> > Quite right too, even if it did take some explaining to the ambulance
> > people.
>
> It was the cute young fireman I felt the most sorry for. Well, that and
> lust, of course.
It didn't take him all that long to cut you out, all things considered.
A very efficient job, I must admit.
Paul.
John W. Kennedy
Somewhere or other, Dorothy L. Sayers talks about those who complain
that Dante is more than a mile high, and want him to leave the court --
and yet Dante obstinately persists in being more than a mile high,
despite them.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
John W. Kennedy
>> to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
>> fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
>
>
> Sounds like Shakespeare.
...or Tennessee Williams, or Tom Stoppard, or (despite what your English
teacher told you) Anton Chekhov, or Harold Pinter, or Dennis Potter, or,
for that matter, Jane Austen, or J. R. R. Tolkien, or (despite his own
best efforts) Isaac Asimov, or even "Doc" Smith.
--
John W. Kennedy
The solemn hour, when night and morning meet,
Mysterious time, to superstition dear,
And superstition’s guides, now passes by;
Deathlike in solitude. The sentinels,
In drowsy tones, from post to post, send on
The signal of the passing hour. All’s well,
Sounds through the camp. Alas! all is not well;
Else, why stand I, a man, the friend of man,
At midnight’s depth, deck’d in this murderous guise,
The habiliment of death, the badge of dire,
Necessitous coercion. ’Tis not well.
—In vain the enlighten’d friends of suffering man
Point out, of war, the folly, guilt, and madness.
Still, age succeeds to age, and war to war;
And man, the murderer, marshalls out his hosts
In all the gaiety of festive pomp,
To spread around him death and desolation.
How long! how long!————————
-- William Dunlap: "André: A tragedy in five acts" (1798)
Alison Hopkins
He buggered up me frock, though. All those sequins were an absolute bitch to
sew back on.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
"John W. Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:xXpyg.7210$v75....@fe10.lga...
> Troy....@gmail.com wrote:
>> Paul Harper wrote:
>>> dialogue is some of the shittiest exposition I have every had to listen
>>> to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
>>> fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
>>
>> ..
>>
>> Sounds like Shakespeare.
>
> ...or Tennessee Williams, or Tom Stoppard, or (despite what your English
> teacher told you) Anton Chekhov, or Harold Pinter, or Dennis Potter, or,
> for that matter, Jane Austen, or J. R. R. Tolkien, or (despite his own
> best efforts) Isaac Asimov, or even "Doc" Smith.
>
Pinter is nearly as sententious an old bore as Sondheim.
Ali
rwgib...@gmail.com
Well, that's become standard proceedure over the past two decades at
the Big Two because of the fanboy popularity of the "event" stories and
media tie-ins, so anyone who gets involved in scripting at this point
in time has to get used to it. But in Hollywood films, it's simply a
matter of one ego being larger than others and not having to make any
real explanations at all other than "I think it works better this way
and I have the power to change anything I want..."
As a creative type, I certainly know which system I'd prefer working
under...though comics certainly don't pay nearly so well, especially
for failure :-)
> Sellout might not be the best term, since a sellout might be doing it
> for the money or career opportunity, and neither situation applies to
> JMS. Throwing out your artistic standards because its fun to write
> Spider-man seems somehow worse.
>
> JMS is hardly the only talented comic book creator who offends in this
> regard.
::shrug::
Every writer knows he or she isn't going to be able to get his or her
way in anything commercial. Unless maybe you're Stephen King...look at
Disney and M.Night and "Lady in the Water" for the most recent
example...
In any case, I think JMS fairly well proved himself as a producer on
"TZ," so he knows his way around Hollywood. And I, for one, wouldn't
mind anyone stepping on his words if it'll save us from some of the
gawdawful exposition we got weekly on B5...
Character #1: You know the Zaterbratz don't get along with the
Xingernoffs ever since the battle of Kitternachet.
Character #2: Of course, everyone knows that. But it's certainly nice
to know the Mutterzubgh have been enforcing the peace ever since the
treaty of Chiba-Seven.
Character #1: You bet. But one of these years, the Hitermetting are
going to get awful tired of having the Xingernoffs on their border and
all hell is gonna break loose.
Character #2: Yep. I have a friend who was stationed out that way. Did
you know that the Hitermetting don't sleep?
Character #1: Read it in a book a while back. Have you got a few
minutes, I need to explain to the audience how the REST of this really
cool universe works?
RWG (in seemingly endless chunks of dialogue in each and every episode)
David Johnston
wrote:
>I have no doubt that Marvel editorial is well intentioned, but in JMS's
>case, I think your distinction is rather meaningless. JMS's Spider-man
>and Fantastic Four are probably at least 25% plotted by editorial.
>He's basically stated that he considers his job to be to write stories
>based on whatever criteria Marvel aks for.
>
>Sellout might not be the best term, since a sellout might be doing it
>for the money or career opportunity, and neither situation applies to
>JMS. Throwing out your artistic standards because its fun to write
>Spider-man seems somehow worse.
>
He didn't create Spider-Man and therefore is less invested. I'm sure
that when other writers worked on his creations he expected them to
fit their stories into his show
Alison Hopkins
<rwgib...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154103789.5...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Character #1: You know the Zaterbratz don't get along with the
> Xingernoffs ever since the battle of Kitternachet.
> Character #2: Of course, everyone knows that. But it's certainly nice
> to know the Mutterzubgh have been enforcing the peace ever since the
> treaty of Chiba-Seven.
> Character #1: You bet. But one of these years, the Hitermetting are
> going to get awful tired of having the Xingernoffs on their border and
> all hell is gonna break loose.
> Character #2: Yep. I have a friend who was stationed out that way. Did
> you know that the Hitermetting don't sleep?
> Character #1: Read it in a book a while back. Have you got a few
> minutes, I need to explain to the audience how the REST of this really
> cool universe works?
>
> RWG (in seemingly endless chunks of dialogue in each and every episode)
>
You are a Bad Funny Man. I like this.
Ali
Anim8rFSK
David Johnston <rgo...@block.net> wrote:
Why? He mercilessly retconned Spider-Man and destroyed characters. He
thinks others should treat his stuff with respect when he's crapping on
other people's work?
PV
> I am starting to see your point here.. You are envious of the guys
>talents.. You can NEVER seem to agree that maybe the guy (JMS) has done
>something right.. Ohh yes, you admit to liking Babylon 5, but yet the guy
>who made it is not allowed to be prosperous and also have fans who
>appreciate his drive to keep the product as he saw it and created it??
This is an incredibly lame argument, stop it. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
rwgib...@gmail.com
Well, the sad truth is that I know this because I've been slapped down
myself for doing essentially the same thing time and time again...
RWG (it's one of those things you write subconsciously because you
LEARN it from watching shows/comics with bad exposition)
Brian Henderson
<tony_bec...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I am starting to see your point here.. You are envious of the guys
>talents.. You can NEVER seem to agree that maybe the guy (JMS) has done
>something right.. Ohh yes, you admit to liking Babylon 5, but yet the guy
>who made it is not allowed to be prosperous and also have fans who
>appreciate his drive to keep the product as he saw it and created it??
Just because JMS is a good writer doesn't make him a good person, you
know. I'll be the first person to say I really like most of what he
writes, but his shameless self-promotion and his taste for telling a
good tale over telling the truth really grates on me these days. If
you talk to him, he'll tell you he's the best thing since sliced
bread, he can do no wrong, everything that doesn't go his way is
someone else's fault, waaaaaah! He never does anything wrong, it's
always TNT or MGM or someone looking at him funny that ruins things!
And frankly, he's been caught in so many lies that it's hard to take
him seriously anymore. Come on, the guy has been in television for
long enough to know how the game is played, sitting around complaining
about it doesn't do any good.
If he'd spend a little more time writing good stories and a little
less time pointing fingers about why his good stories get screwed up,
I think we'd all be happy.
rwgib...@gmail.com
Brian Henderson wrote:
<deleted>
heh, I remember that name from the seemingly endless B5/Trek wars from
the heyday of the AOL message boards :-)
RWG (<---senile old coot)
junior-kun
rwgib...@gmail.com wrote:
>But in Hollywood films, it's simply a
> matter of one ego being larger than others and not having to make any
> real explanations at all other than "I think it works better this way
> and I have the power to change anything I want..."
I fail to see how egotistical story alterations is in any way worse
than committee writen number crunching manufactored "events".
"I think it works better this way" is no worse than Marvel's "I think
it sells better this way."
Carl Henderson
> And anyone who thinks that...
>
> "A mote it is to trouble the mind's eye. In the most high and palmy
> state of Rome, a little ere the mightiest Julius fell, the graves stood
> tenantless, and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman
> streets; as stars with trains of fire and dews of blood, disasters in
> the sun; and the moist star upon whose influence Neptune's empire
> stands was sick almost to doomsday with eclipse."
>
> is comparable to...
>
> "Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
>
> Has lost his mind some considerable distance beyond redemption.
The latter has the not-inconsiderable advantage of brevity.
--
Carl Henderson
j...@carlhenderson.net
junior-kun
No comment as to quality, but I find it interesting that every time he
writes a character he didn't create, he feels its necessary to do his
own version of their origin. He's done it with Strange, Spidey, the
Squadren and The Fantastic Four. Despite this bold move, he seems
content to let editorial co-plot many of his stories. Its strange and
interesting.
I look forward to more JMS tv work, which he seems to take a hell of a
lot more seriously.
rwgib...@gmail.com
The most obvious is, well, obvious. The former changes are made ad hoc
AFTER you've put in your heart and soul into the effort, submitted the
screenplay and been told how good it is by one studio exec or another
(and sometimes you aren't even made aware the changes are being made);
the latter you pretty much know about before you commit to making the
effort in the first place. You know what events are coming up and
what's expected of you at the time you send in the plot synopsis but
before the actual script - someone just doesn't come around at the last
minute and tell you what you've written isn't going to work and they're
going to change it with or without your input.
RWG (that's the way it worked back when I was in the biz, anyway)
Anim8rFSK
"junior-kun" <junio...@gmail.com> wrote:
Did he much with Spidey's origin too? Right after they finished getting
rid of Byrnes horrible retcon of Spidey's origin?
BTW, I saw the head of Marvel interviewed at Comic-Con, and the
interviewer asked how soon they were gonna retcon out JMS's work, and
Quesada flinched and said 'well, this will affect him for some time . . "
To me, that said "we're already working on the reboot"
hunt...@earthlink.net
tony_becky_mikey_verizon_news wrote:
> Paul,
> I am starting to see your point here.. You are envious of the guys
> talents.. You can NEVER seem to agree that maybe the guy (JMS) has done
> something right.. Ohh yes, you admit to liking Babylon 5, but yet the guy
> who made it is not allowed to be prosperous and also have fans who
> appreciate his drive to keep the product as he saw it and created it??
>
> writing skills and ability to be working on all the stuff he is..
You're setting up an either/or dichotomy which isn't necessarily so.
I'm a huge fan of Joe's work. I loved all 5 seasons of B5, watched all
of Crusade and really liked it, and liked Jeremiah almost as much as
B5, sometimes even more-so.
Joe's talent at plotting is unparalleled. Nothing I've seen on TV has
come close.
But the guy is also an active cultivator of sycophants, has a blogging
style that is arguably big-feeling, and has abilities that are, I would
argue, well below-average when it comes to writing believable, natural
dialogue.
Joe's been extremely lucky in the past to have had Ford Thaxton and
Theron as his most vocal critics on the internets. Frankly, they were a
couple of hosebags who made Joe look like Jack Kennedy in comparison.
But come on... I wrote and entire episode of a TV series and I don't
remember doing it? Gosh, Joe, you're almost superhuman!
Give me a break.
I'll say this... JMS's strengths and liabilities are so apparent and in
such stark contrast that it makes him consistently one of the most
interesting creative forces in television.
I look forward to seeing what he comes up with.
junior-kun
rwgib...@gmail.com wrote:
> junior-kun wrote:
> > rwgib...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > >But in Hollywood films, it's simply a
> > > matter of one ego being larger than others and not having to make any
> > > real explanations at all other than "I think it works better this way
> > > and I have the power to change anything I want..."
> >
> > I fail to see how egotistical story alterations is in any way worse
> > than committee writen number crunching manufactored "events".
> >
> > "I think it works better this way" is no worse than Marvel's "I think
> > it sells better this way."
>
> The most obvious is, well, obvious. The former changes are made ad hoc
> AFTER you've put in your heart and soul into the effort, submitted the
> screenplay and been told how good it is by one studio exec or another
Artistically, neither compromise is superior to the other. Spider-man
plotlines written by editorial are not going to play to JMS's strengths
as a writer, while a director's dialogue rewrite could concievably
improve the movie.
In television, JMS plans expansive, multi-year arcs, in comics, he
seems to be working one story at a time, as long terms plans only last
as long as the next committe driven, editorial mandate.
The high standards he applies to television don't seem to make it to
his comics.
Wayland
>I'm beginning to think Alison is a double-alias of Paul.
>They think alike (dislike jms).
>Write alike.
>And often post within minutes of one another in the same thread.
>
>(Of course I could be wrong, but given Paul's history of alias
>morphing, I suspect I'm right.)
Alison, did you go and change genders when no one was looking?
Wayland
Wayland
>
>Paul Harper wrote:
>> dialogue is some of the shittiest exposition I have every had to listen
>> to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
>> fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
>
>.
>
>Sounds like Shakespeare. He did alright (or so I'm told).
Shakespeare was a master of both monolog and dialog. His characters
play on words back and forth with each other throughout his plays. He
switches the meter of the lines to give the dialog greater depth,
sometimes having one character talk in prose and the other in verse to
emphasize points.
JMS is no Shakespeare, not by a long shot.
Wayland
...of course, there is that time ol' Will put a grandfather clock in
ancient Rome.
Wayland
>"Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
I thought you said JMS was good with speeches, there's a perfect
opportunity right there. I guess he wasted all his speeches on
conversation.
Wayland
Alison Hopkins
"Wayland" <termina...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:259kc2tpm6i1qrbrr...@4ax.com...
<looks down into underwear and checks>
Nope!
Ali
Alison Hopkins
> On 28 Jul 2006 04:48:00 -0700, Troy....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Paul Harper wrote:
>>> dialogue is some of the shittiest exposition I have every had to listen
>>> to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
>>> fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
>>
>>.
>>
>>Sounds like Shakespeare. He did alright (or so I'm told).
>
> Shakespeare was a master of both monolog and dialog. His characters
> play on words back and forth with each other throughout his plays. He
> switches the meter of the lines to give the dialog greater depth,
> sometimes having one character talk in prose and the other in verse to
> emphasize points.
>
> JMS is no Shakespeare, not by a long shot.
>
I've seen several Shakespeare plays at the Globe. They are stripped bare; no
sets, no folderol, nada. They are an utter joy.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
<hunt...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1154118238....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> I'm a huge fan of Joe's work. I loved all 5 seasons of B5, watched all
> of Crusade and really liked it, and liked Jeremiah almost as much as
> B5, sometimes even more-so.
>
> Joe's talent at plotting is unparalleled. Nothing I've seen on TV has
> come close.
>
> But the guy is also an active cultivator of sycophants, has a blogging
> style that is arguably big-feeling, and has abilities that are, I would
> argue, well below-average when it comes to writing believable, natural
> dialogue.
>
> Joe's been extremely lucky in the past to have had Ford Thaxton and
> Theron as his most vocal critics on the internets. Frankly, they were a
> couple of hosebags who made Joe look like Jack Kennedy in comparison.
>
> But come on... I wrote and entire episode of a TV series and I don't
> remember doing it? Gosh, Joe, you're almost superhuman!
>
> Give me a break.
>
> I'll say this... JMS's strengths and liabilities are so apparent and in
> such stark contrast that it makes him consistently one of the most
> interesting creative forces in television.
>
> I look forward to seeing what he comes up with.
>
I don't do this.... but AOL. You've just summed up what I feel. That, and
the fact that he does crap on real people. Which many creative folk have a
nasty habit of doing.
Ali
shawn
And would utterly fail as a product of television. The problem is that
while Shakespeare was a tremendous talent his audience was a very
different one from the mass audience you find viewing television
today. That kind of prose would turn viewers away in droves.
rwgib...@gmail.com
junior-kun wrote:
> rwgib...@gmail.com wrote:
> > junior-kun wrote:
> > > rwgib...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >But in Hollywood films, it's simply a
> > > > matter of one ego being larger than others and not having to make any
> > > > real explanations at all other than "I think it works better this way
> > > > and I have the power to change anything I want..."
> > >
> > > I fail to see how egotistical story alterations is in any way worse
> > > than committee writen number crunching manufactored "events".
> > >
> > > "I think it works better this way" is no worse than Marvel's "I think
> > > it sells better this way."
> >
> > The most obvious is, well, obvious. The former changes are made ad hoc
> > AFTER you've put in your heart and soul into the effort, submitted the
> > screenplay and been told how good it is by one studio exec or another
>
> Artistically, neither compromise is superior to the other.
Your definition of "compromise" is obviously not mine. From an artistic
viewpoint, I think it's MUCH better to have at least some amount of
control over the finished product that bears your name. But, hey,
that's just me.
>Spider-man
> plotlines written by editorial are not going to play to JMS's strengths
> as a writer, while a director's dialogue rewrite could concievably
> improve the movie.
"Could?" Yes, concievably. But that doesn't change the fact that, in
the film biz, it's more typical that the script you send in isn't what
ends up on the screen and you only know it after you do all of the
heavy lifting. By union contract, you have the option of changing or
removing your name from the finished work, but that's about it.
In comics (at least the way Marvel used to work when I was in the biz),
they tinker with your plot before you do most of the real work, the
artist gets the plot, then you fill in the dialogue after you know what
the changes will be. Again, JMS might have it in his contract he
doesn't work that way, but the comic book work by its very nature is
one of "compromise" and always has been since most writers typically
don't do the art or the editorial.
But you know that full well going in. And, again, you have at least
some control over the finished product, since the dialogue is still
yours.
>
> In television, JMS plans expansive, multi-year arcs, in comics, he
> seems to be working one story at a time, as long terms plans only last
> as long as the next committe driven, editorial mandate.
Sounds like the way Marvel has pretty much always worked. Unless
you're an editor or a REALLY influential artist working on a non-star
character, the bottom line is going to tinker with the plotting part of
your job as a writer. But the finished product generally still looks
like YOUR writing and not that of the editors (or director :-)
> The high standards he applies to television don't seem to make it to
> his comics.
I'll have to take your word for it on that one. I've only read two or
three of his Spider-Man issues. OK, but (outside of one or two
humorous bits), not exactly my kind of thing.
RWG (though the nasty dialogue exposition that made me cringe watching
B5 wasn't nearly so bad)
Wayland
Wayland
>
>Paul Harper wrote:
>> dialogue is some of the shittiest exposition I have every had to listen
>> to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
>> fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
>
>.
>
>Sounds like Shakespeare. He did alright (or so I'm told).
Shakespeare was a master of both monolog and dialog. His characters
play on words back and forth with each other throughout his plays. He
switches the meter of the lines to give the dialog greater depth,
sometimes having one character talk in prose and the other in verse to
emphasize points.
JMS is no Shakespeare, not by a long shot.
Wayland
>I'm beginning to think Alison is a double-alias of Paul.
>They think alike (dislike jms).
>Write alike.
>And often post within minutes of one another in the same thread.
>
>(Of course I could be wrong, but given Paul's history of alias
>morphing, I suspect I'm right.)
Alison, did you go and change genders when no one was looking?
Wayland
Jaime M. de Castellvi
wrote:
The audience wasn't that different when you place the Bard in his
*context* (not ours). It was a different time, different use of
language. But not so different that it cannot find deep resonance
still today, with fairly large (and not unrepresentative either,
unless you consider beer- guzzling, sports-gawking couch potatoes as
the choice representatives of todays humanity, in which case you think
like a studio suit and you'd never get writers who don't insult the
audience's intelligence) audiences still today, as Branagh proved not
that long ago with the movie adaptations of _Henry V_ (Derek Jacobi as
the Chorus certainly helped) and _Much Ado About Nothing_ (before he
got all stuffy for his _Hamlet_). Then there's Mel Gibson's _Hamlet_
<*shudder*>. They were theatrical productions of course, but later
met their fair share of success when shown in the tele too. Your use
of the word "utterly" in the above context thus strikes me as utter
(and utterly misguided) hyperbole.
I'd say that if you are the kind of person who relishes _B5_,
_Farscape_, _Buffy_, _Angel_, _Firefly_ and a few others, there is a
fair chance that you'd relish Shakespeare when exposed to it.
Cheers,
Jaime
Jaime M. de Castellvi
Dammit, you tease! How come I never get a peep?
OTOH, if you're Paul Harper, I'll pass...
Cheers,
Jaime
Jaime M. de Castellvi
wrote:
Dear Wayland,
Metaphors are fine and all if they keep you happy, but in real life
doubling your post doesn't actually double the size of your dick.
HTH. HAND.
Cheers,
Jaime
...and it doesn't give either of us a chubby either.
Anim8rFSK
"Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
If you saw a penis, does that mean 6 more weeks of winter?
Paul Harper
wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 00:02:19 +0100, "Alison Hopkins"
Not in this country. Some of the BBC's best and most loved productions
over the last several decades have been Shakespere productions.
Paul.
--
. Bill Maher: "Tulips aren't flowers, they're gay onions"
. A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
. Is there a moron carrot above? Have you replied to it? Are you sure?
. EMail: Unless invited to, don't; it's likely to be automatically deleted.
Paul Harper
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>"Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
>news:1154098255.7...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Alison Hopkins wrote:
>>> "Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
>>> news:1154092997.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>> >
>>> > Alison Hopkins wrote:
>>> >> "Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
>>> >> news:1154092216....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Alison Hopkins wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> >> Damn, outed. Hey Paul, got any decent pics of me anyplace still?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > <grin> Yeah, but you made me promise not to tell anyone about them.
>>> >> > Technically, I think they're still illegal, at best immoral, and at
>>> >> > any
>>> >> > time bound to cause a sore back.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Oh. Not THOSE pictures. Ah. Sorry.
>>> >> >
>>> >> Damn. I was quite proud of those.
>>> >
>>> > Quite right too, even if it did take some explaining to the ambulance
>>> > people.
>>>
>>> It was the cute young fireman I felt the most sorry for. Well, that and
>>> lust, of course.
>>
>> It didn't take him all that long to cut you out, all things considered.
>> A very efficient job, I must admit.
>>
>He buggered up me frock, though. All those sequins were an absolute bitch to
>sew back on.
I was picking them out of my teeth for *ages*
Paul Harper
wrote:
Depends which way it was pointing.
Paul Harper
<jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>Somewhere or other, Dorothy L. Sayers talks about those who complain
>that Dante is more than a mile high, and want him to leave the court --
>and yet Dante obstinately persists in being more than a mile high,
>despite them.
Is the same not true of the naked Emperor?
video...@yahoo.com
> On 28 Jul 2006 04:48:00 -0700, Troy....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Paul Harper wrote:
> >> dialogue is some of the shittiest exposition I have every had to listen
> >> to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
> >> fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
> >
> >.
> >
> >Sounds like Shakespeare. He did alright (or so I'm told).
>
> Shakespeare was a master of both monolog and dialog. His characters
> play on words back and forth with each other throughout his plays. He
> switches the meter of the lines to give the dialog greater depth,
.
Do you read Shakespeare in the original accent (a kind of
Scottish-style brogue)?
If not, then you're not truly understanding Shakespeare (i.e. the meter
and rhyme would be incorrect).
.
video...@yahoo.com
> > > an awful lot of kitty litter...
> >
> > Oh no; no; you're not a stalker and/or hater of Mr. Straczynski.
>
>
>
> The ability to do infant-level maths does not make one a stalker or hater.
.
If you hate JMS and his babylon 5, stop visiting the rast.b5.mod forum.
Oh no. Then you wouldn't be able to stalk (or troll) him.
So that's why you keep making fake aliases and coming back.
.
Paul Harper
<video...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Paul Harper wrote:
>> Troy....@gmail.com wrote:
>> > Paul Harper wrote:
>> > >
>> > > $2,800,000 - as a mimumum, plus whatever fees as Exec. Producer - buys
>> > > an awful lot of kitty litter...
>> >
>> > Oh no; no; you're not a stalker and/or hater of Mr. Straczynski.
>>
>> The ability to do infant-level maths does not make one a stalker or hater.
>
>If you hate JMS and his babylon 5, stop visiting the rast.b5.mod forum.
>Oh no. Then you wouldn't be able to stalk (or troll) him.
>So that's why you keep making fake aliases and coming back.
You will, of course, be able to point these "aliases" out to everyone,
won't you? Please do.
Alison Hopkins
"Jaime M. de Castellvi" <3c...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:knclc21teqr6g5ffc...@4ax.com...
> The audience wasn't that different when you place the Bard in his
> *context* (not ours). It was a different time, different use of
> language. But not so different that it cannot find deep resonance
> still today, with fairly large (and not unrepresentative either,
> unless you consider beer- guzzling, sports-gawking couch potatoes as
> the choice representatives of todays humanity, in which case you think
> like a studio suit and you'd never get writers who don't insult the
> audience's intelligence) audiences still today, as Branagh proved not
> that long ago with the movie adaptations of _Henry V_ (Derek Jacobi as
> the Chorus certainly helped) and _Much Ado About Nothing_ (before he
> got all stuffy for his _Hamlet_). Then there's Mel Gibson's _Hamlet_
> <*shudder*>. They were theatrical productions of course, but later
> met their fair share of success when shown in the tele too. Your use
> of the word "utterly" in the above context thus strikes me as utter
> (and utterly misguided) hyperbole.
>
> I'd say that if you are the kind of person who relishes _B5_,
> _Farscape_, _Buffy_, _Angel_, _Firefly_ and a few others, there is a
> fair chance that you'd relish Shakespeare when exposed to it.
>
And Shakespeare's audiences were not the educated literate. Those who paid
their penny to stand in the pit at the Globe were the great unwashed, who
heckled, laughed, threw fruit and abuse and jammed the place out. Even in
the posh seats, these were not the aristocracy. The Pit folk could not read
or write, and spent their days in very menial labour. But they loved the
plays.
If anyone gets to London, go to Wanamaker's Globe, may he rest in peace.
It's wonderful. Shakespeare at its utter purest. I am there again on
Saturday next.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
<video...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154189987.1...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You illiterate oaf. It's akin to a Black Country accent, which is totally
unlike a Scots brogue. There are still people in Worcestershire who talk a
dialect akin to his. (Come to that, they also do on the Carolina South
Banks, if I recall the place aright.)
Ali
Alison Hopkins
> On 29 Jul 2006 09:22:39 -0700, "video...@yahoo.com"
> <video...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Paul Harper wrote:
>>> Troy....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > Paul Harper wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > $2,800,000 - as a mimumum, plus whatever fees as Exec. Producer -
>>> > > buys
>>> > > an awful lot of kitty litter...
>>> >
>>> > Oh no; no; you're not a stalker and/or hater of Mr. Straczynski.
>>>
>>> The ability to do infant-level maths does not make one a stalker or
>>> hater.
>>
>>If you hate JMS and his babylon 5, stop visiting the rast.b5.mod forum.
>>Oh no. Then you wouldn't be able to stalk (or troll) him.
>>So that's why you keep making fake aliases and coming back.
>
> You will, of course, be able to point these "aliases" out to everyone,
> won't you? Please do.
>
I offer to sell tickets and popcorn.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
That's nothing to where Christian found the damn things.
Ali
Wesley Struebing
wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 19:39:27 -0400, shawn <nanof...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
<snip>
>>
>>And would utterly fail as a product of television. The problem is that
>>while Shakespeare was a tremendous talent his audience was a very
>>different one from the mass audience you find viewing television
>>today. That kind of prose would turn viewers away in droves.
>
>Not in this country. Some of the BBC's best and most loved productions
>over the last several decades have been Shakespere productions.
>
(breaking my cardinal rule on x-posting - Oh, I'm bad!)
All right! What did you do with the *real* Paul Harper? He knows how
to spell (the contemporary version of) Shakespeare!
--
Wes Struebing
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Paul Harper
<fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
All over the dark room floor in XXL?
Paul Harper
<str...@carpedementem.org> wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 10:30:40 +0100, Paul Harper <pa...@harper.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 19:39:27 -0400, shawn <nanof...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
><snip>
>>>
>>>And would utterly fail as a product of television. The problem is that
>>>while Shakespeare was a tremendous talent his audience was a very
>>>different one from the mass audience you find viewing television
>>>today. That kind of prose would turn viewers away in droves.
>>
>>Not in this country. Some of the BBC's best and most loved productions
>>over the last several decades have been Shakespere productions.
>>
>(breaking my cardinal rule on x-posting - Oh, I'm bad!)
>
>All right! What did you do with the *real* Paul Harper? He knows how
>to spell (the contemporary version of) Shakespeare!
Damn. Okay. Flaggelation branch is poised and ready to go...
Alison Hopkins
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 12:29:46 -0600, Wesley Struebing
> <str...@carpedementem.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 10:30:40 +0100, Paul Harper <pa...@harper.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 19:39:27 -0400, shawn <nanof...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>And would utterly fail as a product of television. The problem is that
>>>>while Shakespeare was a tremendous talent his audience was a very
>>>>different one from the mass audience you find viewing television
>>>>today. That kind of prose would turn viewers away in droves.
>>>
>>>Not in this country. Some of the BBC's best and most loved productions
>>>over the last several decades have been Shakespere productions.
>>>
>>(breaking my cardinal rule on x-posting - Oh, I'm bad!)
>>
>>All right! What did you do with the *real* Paul Harper? He knows how
>>to spell (the contemporary version of) Shakespeare!
>
> Damn. Okay. Flaggelation branch is poised and ready to go...
>
You probably did O level English at about the same time I did. Mind you.
Shakespere is only one of a myriad spellings.
Ali
norrin
> > > to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
> > > fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
> >
>
> what you are talking about.
>
> And anyone who thinks that...
>
> "A mote it is to trouble the mind's eye. In the most high and palmy
> state of Rome, a little ere the mightiest Julius fell, the graves stood
> tenantless, and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman
> streets; as stars with trains of fire and dews of blood, disasters in
> the sun; and the moist star upon whose influence Neptune's empire
> stands was sick almost to doomsday with eclipse."
>
> is comparable to...
>
> "Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
>
>
> Paul.
Shakespeare was incapable of writing the second line, and incapable of
expressing the sentiments it contains. The reaction to a divorce
contained
in the words of JMS are alien to the Elizabethan situation.
He came close when he wrote "A plague on both your houses."
Sea Wasp
> Paul Harper wrote:
>
>>Troy....@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Paul Harper wrote:
>>>
>>>>dialogue is some of the shittiest exposition I have every had to listen
>>>>to. When his characters were *supposed* to be making speeches, then
>>>>fine, but even when they weren't, they were *still* making speeches.
>>>
>>>Sounds like Shakespeare. He did alright (or so I'm told).
>>
>>We have progress. At least in that posting you admit you don't know
>>what you are talking about.
>>
>>And anyone who thinks that...
>>
>>"A mote it is to trouble the mind's eye. In the most high and palmy
>>state of Rome, a little ere the mightiest Julius fell, the graves stood
>>tenantless, and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman
>>streets; as stars with trains of fire and dews of blood, disasters in
>>the sun; and the moist star upon whose influence Neptune's empire
>>stands was sick almost to doomsday with eclipse."
>>
>>is comparable to...
>>
>>"Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
>>
>>Has lost his mind some considerable distance beyond redemption.
Taking an entire speech from one source, and then comparing it to a
single line, taken totally out of context, from the other, is hardly
fair play.
I happen to think the "Get the hell out of our Galaxy" is brilliant.
Taken in context. Which most detractors work VERY hard NOT to do,
because they don't LIKE the context, because it does rather undermine
the detraction.
I love Shakespeare, too. I think that trying to compare Shakespeare
and Babylon 5 isn't easy. They're totally different.
I happen to love melodramatic speeches, so some of the stuff that
makes some people wince makes me say COOL! I presume that JMS is
similar to me in that area. If so, he's writing material that exactly
achieves his objectives -- which indicates he's a damn good writer.
Shakespeare? Hard to compare. But he was a popular writer of his
time, producing general entertainment. In that sense he's rather
similar to JMS, but the subject material was rather different.
You might be able to get the best comparison out of The Tempest.
Where we have an all powerful wizard manipulating all the events and
making speeches like,
"Ye elves of hills, brooks, standing lakes, and groves
And ye that on the sands with printless foot
Do chase the ebbing Neptune and do fly him when he comes back;...
... By whose aid, weak masters though ye be,
I have bedimm'd the noontide sun
Called forth the mutinous winds,
And 'twixt green sea and azured vault set roaring war..."
Which, to my mind, isn't all that far from a number of the bombastic
speeches made by characters in Babylon 5.
Which is also not a bad thing, to my mind.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
David Johnston
>> "A mote it is to trouble the mind's eye. In the most high and palmy
>> state of Rome, a little ere the mightiest Julius fell, the graves stood
>> tenantless, and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman
>> streets; as stars with trains of fire and dews of blood, disasters in
>> the sun; and the moist star upon whose influence Neptune's empire
>> stands was sick almost to doomsday with eclipse."
>>
>> is comparable to...
>>
>> "Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
While I'm not gonna say that JMS's speechifyin' was on Shakespeare's
level it is self-evident that wasn't one of his speeches. It's just
one line. And yeah, that line's comparable to "Out, damned spot">
tony_becky_mikey_verizon_news
Why all the fuss and muss Paul, You were the one who said you could come
back and hide yourself from the moderators, by changing you style and such..
Do you really feel the need to go into the moderated room, after all the
conflict and dialog that has flown about?
I for one do NOT understand your driven desire to go on with this further..
But then again, you seem to have your own camp followers here in this
newsgroup, so maybe you can stay here, and leave the other group in peace..
Seems it might be the more peaceful thing to do, unless you now feel you
have some sort of right to be in the moderated room..
Captain Infinity
>Do you really feel the need to go into the moderated room, after all the
>conflict and dialog that has flown about?
>
>Seems it might be the more peaceful thing to do, unless you now feel you
>have some sort of right to be in the moderated room..
"The moderated room"? Have they moved a bigger couch in there yet? The
old one was always so small. And the neighbors next door are TOO DAMN
LOUD! KEEP IT DOWN, THESE WALLS ARE TOO THIN!!
**
Captain Infinity
Gordon D. Pusch
> junior-kun wrote:
>
> >Spider-man
> > plotlines written by editorial are not going to play to JMS's strengths
> > as a writer, while a director's dialogue rewrite could concievably
> > improve the movie.
>
> "Could?" Yes, concievably. But that doesn't change the fact that, in
> the film biz, it's more typical that the script you send in isn't what
> ends up on the screen and you only know it after you do all of the
> heavy lifting. By union contract, you have the option of changing or
> removing your name from the finished work, but that's about it.
A friend of mine (who is a published writer) once told me a joke:
"Did you hear about the blonde actress who was so dumb that she
slept with the screenwriter ???" (She told me this joke to
illustrate just how low writers are in the Hollywood food chain...)
-- Gordon D. Pusch
perl -e '$_ = "gdpusch\@NO.xnet.SPAM.com\n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'
William December Starr
"Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> said:
> And anyone who thinks that...
>
> "A mote it is to trouble the mind's eye. In the most high and
> palmy state of Rome, a little ere the mightiest Julius fell, the
> graves stood tenantless, and the sheeted dead did squeak and
> gibber in the Roman streets; as stars with trains of fire and dews
> of blood, disasters in the sun; and the moist star upon whose
> influence Neptune's empire stands was sick almost to doomsday with
> eclipse."
>
> is comparable to...
>
> "Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
>
> Has lost his mind some considerable distance beyond redemption.
You're right. Those two passages suck in _completely_ different ways.
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Alison Hopkins
"tony_becky_mikey_verizon_news" <tony_bec...@verizon.net> wrote in
message news:F3Tyg.5223$c11.1467@trnddc08...
>
<SNIP TWADDLE>
FFS, snip sigs and post properly, you twitgit.
Ali
Paul Harper
Filters are my friend :-)
Paul Harper
It'll be a short game. He's so far out of his league, we're not even
playing the same sport...
video...@yahoo.com
Paul Harper wrote:
>
> "Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
.
I wish you'd make up your mind. First you say that JMS is incapable of
wriing anything but long, tiresome speeches.
And now you throw up a one-liner, short & to the point, and you say
that it's deficient.
Seems that you don't like ANY thing jms writes, either long or short.
You don't like his long speeches or his short one-liners, so that makes
you impossible to please.
.
Paul Harper
<video...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Paul Harper wrote:
>>
>> "Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
>
>I wish you'd make up your mind. First you say that JMS is incapable of
>wriing anything but long, tiresome speeches.
>
>And now you throw up a one-liner, short & to the point, and you say
>that it's deficient.
It's the end of a conversation. Not the entire conversation, and most
definitely not a speech.
Did you ever actually *watch* Babylon 5?!
video...@yahoo.com
> On 30 Jul 2006 03:31:35 -0700, "video...@yahoo.com"
> <video...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Paul Harper wrote:
> >>
> >> "Get the hell out of our Galaxy"
> >
> >I wish you'd make up your mind. First you say that JMS is incapable of
> >wriing anything but long, tiresome speeches.
> >And now you throw up a one-liner, short & to the point, and you say
> >that it's deficient.
>
.
(whoosh)
That's the sound of my point going right over your head. THE POINT IS,
if jms had eliminated the lengthy speeches, and just used lines like
"Get the hell out of our galaxy" or "We will fight back" as
conversation, you'd still be complaining that it's poor quality
simple-minded trash.
In other words, no matter what jms does, either long speeches or short
one-liners, you will still say it was poor.
So much for being fair.
You're so anti-jms biased.
.
Captain Infinity
>THE POINT IS,
>if jms had eliminated the lengthy speeches, and just used lines like
>"Get the hell out of our galaxy" or "We will fight back" as
>conversation, you'd still be complaining that it's poor quality
>simple-minded trash.
>
>In other words, no matter what jms does, either long speeches or short
>one-liners, you will still say it was poor.
>
>So much for being fair.
>You're so anti-jms biased.
For the record and for my part, I am not anti-JMS biased. I enjoy most
of his writing, and consider Babylon 5 the best SF TV show ever made.
However...most of his character's expository dialog is stilted. His
speeches come across a bit better, mainly *because* they are speeches.
As for "Get the hell out of our galaxy"...it is the single lowest point
in all of Babylon 5, both because it is an ultimately disappointing
ending of an enthralling story line, and because, well, as a group of
words strung together it just sucks.
So. There. It *is* possible to have it both ways. Sometimes JMS
writes crappy long speeches. Sometimes he writes crappy one-liners. No
anti-JMS bias involved.
*You* however, Troy, have an anti-Harper bias. And you seem to be
stalking him.
**
Captain Infinity
..."Please don't allow this father-fucking son of
a bitch asshole (Ford Thaxton?) to win."
--Troy Heagy in
<2006072008500...@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
"Well for one thing, I have manners."
--Troy Heagy in
<1154091017....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Paul Harper
<video...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In other words, no matter what jms does, either long speeches or short
>one-liners, you will still say it was poor.
Let me make it easy for you:
Straczynski tells good stories, mostly.
Straczynski writes turgid dialogue, mostly.
Does that simple, clear distinction get through your rather dense
skull?
Paul Harper
<Infi...@captaininfinity.us> wrote:
>*You* however, Troy, have an anti-Harper bias. And you seem to be
>stalking him.
Hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned.
Alison Hopkins
<Troy....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154272793.6...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Captain Infinity wrote:
>>
>> *You* however, Troy, have an anti-Harper bias. And you seem to be
>> stalking him.
>
>
> I'm not. He's replying to me, and I am responding.
> Perhaps it is time to just kill-file Paul and forget he exists.
>
I'd prefer it if you'd killfile yourself and cease to exist on Usenet.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
"Captain Infinity" <Infi...@captaininfinity.us> wrote in message
news:cnfpc2lf39fiosnuk...@4ax.com...
> As for "Get the hell out of our galaxy"...it is the single lowest point
> in all of Babylon 5, both because it is an ultimately disappointing
> ending of an enthralling story line, and because, well, as a group of
> words strung together it just sucks.
>
Hear, hear. It *so* let down all the other good stuff.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
<Troy....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154272529.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Alison Hopkins wrote:
>> <video...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > Do you read Shakespeare in the original accent (a kind of
>> > Scottish-style brogue)?
>> >
>>
>> You illiterate oaf. It's akin to a Black Country accent, which is totally
>> unlike a Scots brogue. .......
>
> .
>
> Not according to Harvard professor Seth Lehrer. He compared it to
> "pirates' english" with rolling r's like the Scots tend to use.
You fuckwit, where do you think "pirate English" comes from? It's related to
the dialects spoken to the West of England, from Worcestershire across to
the West Country. Guess what, they roll their Rs. Guess what, they sound
NOTHING like a Scot! It's a different bloody country you half baked ninny.
Have you actually ever been here, or heard a true local accent? Christ on a
crutch the bloody French roll their Rs. Do they sound Scots, you blithering
fool?
>
> Also remember, Shakespeare wrote prior to the great vowel shift, and
> therefore used european-style vowels (where e sounds like a, i sounds
> like e, and so forth). I'm not aware of any English speakers that use
> european-style vowels.
What the hell are you on about? Or on? I speak three "European" languages.
Plus a further few in some way. Are you such an inward looking idiot of a
Merkin that you think all European languages use the same vowel sound? I can
tell you that French is just a bit different from German and Spanish. And
don't get me started on Euskadi.
And I could point you at several dialects in England, where we speak
English, believe it or not, where e sounds like a, for example. Including my
husband's accent. He's from Plymouth.
God in heaven, is this what the US education system turns out? It explains a
great deal.
Ali