Requiring Picture ID raises voter participation levels, opposite to what the media says

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weary flake

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Jan 12, 2022, 9:59:59 PM (13 days ago) Jan 12
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Members of our media monopoly never differ with each other on the matter of
election integrity nor any other subject and they have unanimously declared
that to require picture ID for voting in the USA is the "moral equivalent of murder".
Here's a countering statement the judge and jury at The New York Times, CBS,
AT&T, Comcast, Disney, NBC, PBS, Zuckerberg, Larry Page and the whole gang wants
to make illegal:

from October 2021:

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/ensuring-election-integrity-anti-democratic/

Sixteen years ago, in 2005, the Carter-Baker Commission on
Federal Election Reform issued a report that proposed a uniform
system of requiring a photo ID in order to vote in U.S.
elections. The report also pointed out that widespread absentee
voting makes vote fraud more likely. Voter files contain
ineligible, duplicate, fictional, and deceased voters, a fact
easily exploited using absentee ballots to commit fraud. Citizens
who vote absentee are more susceptible to pressure and
intimidation. And vote-buying schemes are far easier when
citizens vote by mail.

Who was behind the Carter-Baker Commission? Donald Trump? No. The
Commission’s two ranking members were former President Jimmy
Carter, a Democrat, and former Secretary of State James Baker
III, a Republican. Other Democrats on the Commission were former
Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle and former Indiana Congressman
Lee Hamilton. It was a truly bipartisan commission that made what
seemed at the time to be common sense proposals.

How things have changed. Some of the Commission’s members, Jimmy
Carter among them, came out last year to disavow the Commission’s
work. And despite surveys showing that Americans overwhelmingly
support measures to ensure election integrity—a recent Rasmussen
survey found that 80 percent of Americans support a voter ID
requirement—Democratic leaders across the board oppose such
measures in the strongest terms.

Here, for instance, is President Biden speaking recently in
Philadelphia, condemning the idea of voter IDs: “There is an
unfolding assault taking place in America today—an attempt to
suppress and subvert the right to vote in fair and free
elections, an assault on democracy, an assault on liberty, an
assault on who we are—who we are as Americans. For, make no
mistake, bullies and merchants of fear and peddlers of lies are
threatening the very foundation of our country.” Sadly but
predicably, he went on to suggest that requiring voter IDs would
mean returning people to slavery.

But the fact is that the U.S. is an outlier among the world’s
democracies in not requiring voter ID. Of the 47 countries in
Europe today, 46 of them currently require government-issued
photo IDs to vote. The odd man out is the United Kingdom, in
which Northern Ireland and many localities require voter IDs, but
the requirement is not nationwide. The British Parliament,
however, is considering a nationwide requirement, so very soon
all 47 European countries will likely have adopted this
common-sense policy.

When it comes to absentee voting, we Americans, accustomed as we
are to very loose rules, are often shocked to learn that 35 of
the 47 European countries—including France, Italy, the
Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden—don’t allow absentee voting for
citizens living in country. Another ten European
countries—including England, Ireland, Denmark, Portugal, and
Spain—allow absentee voting, but require voters to show up in
person and present a photo ID to pick up their ballots. It isn’t
like in the U.S., where a person can say he’s going to be out of
town and have a ballot mailed to him.

England used to have absentee voting rules similar to ours in the
U.S. But in 2004, in the city of Birmingham, officials uncovered
a massive vote fraud scheme in the city council races. The six
winning Labor candidates had fraudulently acquired about 40,000
absentee votes, mainly from Muslim areas of the city. As a
result, England ended the practice of mailing out absentee
ballots and required voters to pick up their ballots in person
with a photo ID.

Up until 1975, France also had loose absentee voting rules. But
when massive vote fraud was discovered on the island of
Corsica—where hundreds of thousands of dead people were found to
be voting and even larger-scale vote-buying operations were
occurring—France banned absentee voting altogether.

On the topic of buying votes, I should point out that we in the
U.S. did not always have secret ballots. It wasn’t until 1880
that the first state adopted the secret ballot, and the last
state to adopt it was South Carolina in 1950. Perhaps
surprisingly, when secret ballots were adopted, the percentage of
people voting fell by about twelve percent. Why was that? Prior
to the adoption of the secret ballot, lots of people would get
paid for voting. In those days, people voted by placing pieces of
colored paper in the ballot box, with different colors
representing different parties. Party officials would be present
to observe what color paper each voter put into the box, and
depending on the color, the voter would often get paid. Secret
ballots put an end to this practice.

France learned in 1975 that the use of absentee ballots led to
the same practice—it allowed third parties to know how people
voted and pay them for voting a certain way. This same problem is
now proliferating in the U.S. in the form of “ballot harvesting,”
the increasingly common practice where party functionaries
distribute and collect ballots.

Defenders of our current voting rules point out that in lieu of
absentee voting, some European countries allow “proxy voting,”
whereby one person can designate another to vote for him. And
while it is true that eight of the 47 European countries allow
proxy voting—meaning that 39 do not—there are strict
requirements. In five of the eight countries—Belgium, England,
Monaco, Poland, and Sweden—proxy voting is limited to those with
a disability or an illness or who are out of the country. In
Poland, it also requires the approval of the local mayor, and in
Monaco the approval of the general secretariat. In France and the
Netherlands, proxy voting has to be arranged through a notary
public. Switzerland is the only country in Europe with a
relatively liberal proxy voting policy, requiring only a
signature match.

How about our neighbors, Canada and Mexico? Canada requires a
photo ID to vote. If a voter shows up at the polls without an ID,
he is allowed to vote only if he declares who he is in writing
and if there is someone working at the polling station who can
personally verify his identity.

Mexico has had a long history of election fraud. Partly because
its leaders were concerned about a drop in foreign investment if
it wasn’t perceived to be a legitimate democracy, Mexico recently
instituted strict reforms. Voters must present a biometric ID—an
ID with not only a photo, but also a thumb print. Voters also
have indelible ink applied to their thumbs, preventing them from
voting more than once. And absentee voting is prohibited, even
for people living outside the country.

Those who oppose election integrity reform here in the U.S. often
condemn it as a means of “voter suppression.” But in Mexico, the
percent of people voting rose from 59 percent before the reforms
to 68 percent after. It turned out that Mexicans were more, not
less, likely to vote when they had confidence that their votes
mattered.

H.R. 1, the radical bill Democratic Party leaders have been
pushing to adopt this year, would prohibit states from requiring
voter ID and require states to allow permanent mail-in voting.
And mail-in voting, I hardly need to point out, is even worse, in
terms of vote fraud, than absentee voting. With absentee voting,
a person at least has to request a ballot. With mail-in voting—as
we saw in too many places in the 2020 election—ballots are simply
mailed out to everyone. With loose absentee voting rules, a
country is making itself vulnerable to vote fraud. With mail-in
voting, a country is almost begging for vote fraud.

If the rhetoric we hear from the Left today is correct—if voter
ID requirements and restrictions on absentee (or even mail-in)
voting are un-democratic -- then so are the countries of Europe and
the rest of the developed world. But this is utter nonsense.

Those opposing common sense measures to ensure integrity in U.S.
elections—measures such as those recommended by the bipartisan
Carter-Baker Commission in 2005—are not motivated by a concern
for democracy, but by partisan interests.

moviePig

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Jan 12, 2022, 11:18:30 PM (13 days ago) Jan 12
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On 1/12/2022 9:59 PM, weary flake wrote:
> Members of our media monopoly never differ with each other on the matter of
> election integrity nor any other subject and they have unanimously declared
> that to require picture ID for voting in the USA is the "moral equivalent of murder".
> Here's a countering statement the judge and jury at The New York Times, CBS,
> AT&T, Comcast, Disney, NBC, PBS, Zuckerberg, Larry Page and the whole gang wants
> to make illegal:
>
> from October 2021:
>
> https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/ensuring-election-integrity-anti-democratic/
>
> Sixteen years ago, in 2005, the Carter-Baker Commission on
> Federal Election Reform issued a report that proposed a uniform
> system of requiring a photo ID in order to vote in U.S.
> elections. ...
>
> Those opposing common sense measures to ensure integrity in U.S.
> elections—measures such as those recommended by the bipartisan
> Carter-Baker Commission in 2005—are not motivated by a concern
> for democracy, but by partisan interests.

Photo-ID might well result in fewer fraudulent votes ...dropping, say,
from single-digits to even lower single-digits. By far the major
impact, however, will be a massive -- and massively partisan -- decrease
in the number of *legitimate* votes. Pretend not otherwise...

BTR1701

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Jan 13, 2022, 12:00:20 AM (13 days ago) Jan 13
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Ridiculous. The very people who are presumed not to have the intelligence
or the wherewithal to make it to the DMV for a free ID card are both
insulted by the concept and overwhelming in support of the requirement.

RichA

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Jan 13, 2022, 12:28:48 AM (13 days ago) Jan 13
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Admittedly, dogs will no longer be eligible.

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 13, 2022, 1:07:31 AM (13 days ago) Jan 13
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BTR1701 <no_e...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com> wrote:

>>>. . .

>>Photo-ID might well result in fewer fraudulent votes ...dropping, say,
>>from single-digits to even lower single-digits. By far the major
>>impact, however, will be a massive -- and massively partisan -- decrease
>>in the number of *legitimate* votes. Pretend not otherwise...

>Ridiculous. The very people who are presumed not to have the intelligence
>or the wherewithal to make it to the DMV for a free ID card are both
>insulted by the concept and overwhelming in support of the requirement.

There are people who don't have the required ID who aren't committing
voting fraud and won't be allowed to vote.

The proposed law is an ass. I oppose having laws for symbolic reasons or
to appease political narratives. The question is why you don't.

Voter ID accomplishes nothing. These people ALREADY provided the
appropriate ID upon registering to vote.

Hey losing candidate. You didn't lose because lots and lots of
fraudulent votes were cast in person on election day. You lost because
you didn't connect with the voters, didn't get your message out, and
flat out ran a lousy campaign. Just ask Hillary.

BTR1701

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Jan 13, 2022, 2:21:48 AM (13 days ago) Jan 13
to
Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> BTR1701 <no_e...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com> wrote:
>
>>>> . . .
>
>>> Photo-ID might well result in fewer fraudulent votes ...dropping, say,
>>> from single-digits to even lower single-digits. By far the major
>>> impact, however, will be a massive -- and massively partisan -- decrease
>>> in the number of *legitimate* votes. Pretend not otherwise...
>
>> Ridiculous. The very people who are presumed not to have the intelligence
>> or the wherewithal to make it to the DMV for a free ID card are both
>> insulted by the concept and overwhelming in support of the requirement.
>
> There are people who don't have the required ID who aren't committing
> voting fraud and won't be allowed to vote.
>
> The proposed law is an ass. I oppose having laws for symbolic reasons or
> to appease political narratives. The question is why you don't.
>
> Voter ID accomplishes nothing. These people ALREADY provided the
> appropriate ID upon registering to vote.

I didn't. I filled out a card and dropped it in the mail. Never showed
anyone any ID.

Ubiquitous

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Jan 13, 2022, 8:00:56 AM (13 days ago) Jan 13
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TROLL-O-METER

5* 6* *7
4* *8
3* *9
2* *10
1* | *stuporous
0* -*- *catatonic
* |\ *comatose
* \ *clinical death
* \ *biological death
* _\/ *demonic apparition
* * *damned for all eternity




suzeeq

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Jan 13, 2022, 11:08:29 AM (13 days ago) Jan 13
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I had to show my DL when I registered to vote.

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 13, 2022, 11:17:18 AM (13 days ago) Jan 13
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For your initial voter registration in California or for an address
change?

California isn't a real place, just a bad example for the rest of the
country. I love how your state legislature makes my state legislature
look like a reform body.

My state had implemented federal Motor Voter way back in the beginning
in 1991. There had been a lot of controversy because Secretary of
State's motor vehicle services had always been supposed to offer voter
registration services but they rarely had a clerk in the facility who
was a resident of the right county. Generally, the voter had to apply to
a deputy county clerk or a municipal or township clerk or a voter registrar.
A registrar was just a volunteer trained to fill out forms but had to be
registered with the county clerk, which meant that both the voter and
registrar had to live in the same county.

The secretary of state serves the entire state and any deputy secretary
of state in an office that serves the public should have been allowed to
register a voter regardless of what county the employee lived in. In
fact, the state board of elections had already come up with a suggested
voter registration application -- three parts with carbons -- that most
counties had implemented versions of. For the counties that hadn't, they
could have kept a small inventory of forms.

With the implementation of Motor Voter, yeah, there could still be
volunteer registrars but that became rare. Instead, there was a
statewide application, which also served as register-by-mail. If the
voter did it in person, he showed the required ID. If the voter
registered by mail, then he was required to vote in person next time and
to show ID at the polls the first time.

Federal Motor Voter required that the driver's license database (which
includes the state-issued ID for nondrivers) and Social Security database
be extracted and everyone's application run against one or the other
database. You had to have either a driver's license number or Social
Security Number. You had to show something with a current address to
prove residence, but that could be the driver's license if that showed
the current address.

Federal law has mandated procedures for people who don't have SSNs or a
driver's license and it's possible to register to vote without this.

This is why I'm so fed up with this "show voter ID at the polls" crap,
since the states that passed such legislation already mandated showing
ID (complying with federal law) to register in the first place.

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 13, 2022, 11:20:42 AM (13 days ago) Jan 13
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Of course you did, as did I. California isn't a real place.

BTR1701

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Jan 13, 2022, 2:50:57 PM (12 days ago) Jan 13
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Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> BTR1701 <no_e...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>> BTR1701 <no_e...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> . . .
>
>>>>> Photo-ID might well result in fewer fraudulent votes ...dropping, say,
>>>>> from single-digits to even lower single-digits. By far the major
>>>>> impact, however, will be a massive -- and massively partisan -- decrease
>>>>> in the number of *legitimate* votes. Pretend not otherwise...
>
>>>> Ridiculous. The very people who are presumed not to have the intelligence
>>>> or the wherewithal to make it to the DMV for a free ID card are both
>>>> insulted by the concept and overwhelming in support of the requirement.
>
>>> There are people who don't have the required ID who aren't committing
>>> voting fraud and won't be allowed to vote.
>
>>> The proposed law is an ass. I oppose having laws for symbolic reasons or
>>> to appease political narratives. The question is why you don't.
>
>>> Voter ID accomplishes nothing. These people ALREADY provided the
>>> appropriate ID upon registering to vote.
>
>> I didn't. I filled out a card and dropped it in the mail. Never showed
>> anyone any ID.
>
> For your initial voter registration in California or for an address
> change?

Initial registration.

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 13, 2022, 4:36:15 PM (12 days ago) Jan 13
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They just trusted your honesty!

My initial voter registrations were long before Motor Voter. I never
showed ID. In theory if I'd never moved out of that county, I'd have
been able to change my voting address by mail, never showing ID.

The Horny Goat

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Jan 13, 2022, 6:46:36 PM (12 days ago) Jan 13
to
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:59:48 -0800, weary flake <weary...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Here, for instance, is President Biden speaking recently in
>Philadelphia, condemning the idea of voter IDs: “There is an
>unfolding assault taking place in America today—an attempt to
>suppress and subvert the right to vote in fair and free
>elections, an assault on democracy, an assault on liberty, an
>assault on who we are—who we are as Americans. For, make no
>mistake, bullies and merchants of fear and peddlers of lies are
>threatening the very foundation of our country.�€? Sadly but
>predicably, he went on to suggest that requiring voter IDs would
>mean returning people to slavery.

Methinks your president has redefined the term "over the top"

In our area we have a personal ID card which is exactly the same as a
driver's licence except for the words saying it's not valid for
driving. Yes there's a fee but if one is receive social assistance
that's waived. Since we're in Canada and have what you folks call
"socialized medicine" it's used for that purpose as well. For voting
all they do in ensure the photo on the card looks something like you
and that your address on the card matches what's on their list.
(There's a simply change of address sticker they'll issue you if you
move within the term of the card. There's also a box on the standard
income tax form authorizing the tax man to share your info with the
voters' list people)

And I have nothing but contempt for Biden attempting to conjoin this
with slavery as if this is an issue that is primarily of interest to
blacks. I've taken mine out of my wallet twice since new year's most
recently yesterday at the doctor's office where they mostly wanted to
confirm address and date of birth.

As for slavery nobody's told me to 'tote that bale' in a VERY long
time (I think it was during high school when our group sang "Old Man
RIver" which is probably now cancelled as well)

The Horny Goat

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Jan 13, 2022, 6:54:56 PM (12 days ago) Jan 13
to
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:59:48 -0800, weary flake <weary...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On the topic of buying votes, I should point out that we in the
>U.S. did not always have secret ballots. It wasn’t until 1880
>that the first state adopted the secret ballot, and the last
>state to adopt it was South Carolina in 1950. Perhaps
>surprisingly, when secret ballots were adopted, the percentage of
>people voting fell by about twelve percent. Why was that? Prior
>to the adoption of the secret ballot, lots of people would get
>paid for voting. In those days, people voted by placing pieces of
>colored paper in the ballot box, with different colors
>representing different parties. Party officials would be present
>to observe what color paper each voter put into the box, and
>depending on the color, the voter would often get paid. Secret
>ballots put an end to this practice.

Long ago Canada didn't either and one had to go up on a platform to
cast their ballot. They even used to publicly announce "Mr ______ has
voted for <candidate>" and when one came down from the platform one
was offered a whiskey shot from the agent of the candidate you had
voted for.

While I don't know whether this is true or not, it used to be said
that entire elections turned on which agent had the better quality
booze that day.

Not that I have any personal knowledge of course since Canada has had
the secret ballot since 1874 shortly after the UK but before nearly
all of Europe.

moviePig

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Jan 13, 2022, 7:02:37 PM (12 days ago) Jan 13
to
On 1/13/2022 6:46 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:59:48 -0800, weary flake <weary...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Here, for instance, is President Biden speaking recently in
>> Philadelphia, condemning the idea of voter IDs: “There is an
>> unfolding assault taking place in America today—an attempt to
>> suppress and subvert the right to vote in fair and free
>> elections, an assault on democracy, an assault on liberty, an
>> assault on who we are—who we are as Americans. For, make no
>> mistake, bullies and merchants of fear and peddlers of lies are
>> threatening the very foundation of our country.� Sadly but
>> predicably, he went on to suggest that requiring voter IDs would
>> mean returning people to slavery.
>
> Methinks your president has redefined the term "over the top"
>
> In our area we have a personal ID card which is exactly the same as a
> driver's licence except for the words saying it's not valid for
> driving. Yes there's a fee but if one is receive social assistance
> that's waived. Since we're in Canada and have what you folks call
> "socialized medicine" it's used for that purpose as well. For voting
> all they do in ensure the photo on the card looks something like you
> and that your address on the card matches what's on their list.
> (There's a simply change of address sticker they'll issue you if you
> move within the term of the card. There's also a box on the standard
> income tax form authorizing the tax man to share your info with the
> voters' list people)
>
> And I have nothing but contempt for Biden attempting to conjoin this
> with slavery as if this is an issue that is primarily of interest to
> blacks. I've taken mine out of my wallet twice since new year's most
> recently yesterday at the doctor's office where they mostly wanted to
> confirm address and date of birth.
>
> As for slavery nobody's told me to 'tote that bale' in a VERY long
> time (I think it was during high school when our group sang "Old Man
> RIver" which is probably now cancelled as well)

The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
voter rolls. One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.

The Horny Goat

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Jan 13, 2022, 7:06:07 PM (12 days ago) Jan 13
to
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:59:48 -0800, weary flake <weary...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>How about our neighbors, Canada and Mexico? Canada requires a
>photo ID to vote. If a voter shows up at the polls without an ID,
>he is allowed to vote only if he declares who he is in writing
>and if there is someone working at the polling station who can
>personally verify his identity.
>
Canada also allows mail in votes for those living outside the country
though one can vote at the embassy (which is discouraged as it's on a
very busy corner of Trafalgar Square in London). My daughter who lives
in London voted that way in the last three Canadian federal elections.
(She also voted in the election for mayor of London, a by-election to
replace the parliamentary seat vacated by the new mayor of London, the
Brexit referendum and two UK general elections)

One thing that is common in Canada is for the elections staff to take
a ballot box through the hospital wards on election day. One has to
register with the nursing staff to vote since they escort the election
staff to the appropriate hospital rooms. Not sure if that's done coast
to coast but federal, provincial and municipal elections are all done
that way in BC. Now you DON'T get to choose your own time of the 12
hour period healthy voters get but you DO get to vote.

No question Canadian election line ups are shorter but then with
separate federal provincial and municipal elections, this is hardly
surprising. My ballot last September had 5 or 6 candidates and I was
in and out in 20-30 minutes which is longer than usual but they were
being strict on Covid protocols so the line was longer than usual.

The Horny Goat

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Jan 13, 2022, 7:14:04 PM (12 days ago) Jan 13
to
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 06:07:27 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>Hey losing candidate. You didn't lose because lots and lots of
>fraudulent votes were cast in person on election day. You lost because
>you didn't connect with the voters, didn't get your message out, and
>flat out ran a lousy campaign. Just ask Hillary.

Another reason is that you failed to get your partisans out to vote.

If somebody is strongly 'leaning your way' but doesn't bother to get
to the polling station on election day that's a vote lost.

Don't know if it's true but 2016 was said to be one of the worst in
the last 30 years for the Democrats in 'getting the vote out' and
obviously they did much better in 2020.

Hey Trump got 11-12 million MORE votes in 2020 than 2016 but the voter
turnout went from 56% -> 66% which is a huge improvement but still
lower than most of America's allies, despite the amazing amounts US
parties spend on election ads - they do better spending more time and
effort in canvassing then pushing hard to get their supporters out on
election day. From the numbers that looks like what Biden's people did
do.

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 13, 2022, 8:59:49 PM (12 days ago) Jan 13
to
The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>Thu, 13 Jan 2022 06:07:27 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>:

>>Hey losing candidate. You didn't lose because lots and lots of
>>fraudulent votes were cast in person on election day. You lost because
>>you didn't connect with the voters, didn't get your message out, and
>>flat out ran a lousy campaign. Just ask Hillary.

>Another reason is that you failed to get your partisans out to vote.

>If somebody is strongly 'leaning your way' but doesn't bother to get
>to the polling station on election day that's a vote lost.

Absolutely right.

>Don't know if it's true but 2016 was said to be one of the worst in
>the last 30 years for the Democrats in 'getting the vote out' and
>obviously they did much better in 2020.

That exactly accounts for Hillary's loss.

>Hey Trump got 11-12 million MORE votes in 2020 than 2016 but the voter
>turnout went from 56% -> 66% which is a huge improvement but still
>lower than most of America's allies, despite the amazing amounts US
>parties spend on election ads - they do better spending more time and
>effort in canvassing then pushing hard to get their supporters out on
>election day. From the numbers that looks like what Biden's people did
>do.

Sure. Campaigning 101.

trotsky

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Jan 14, 2022, 2:24:11 AM (12 days ago) Jan 14
to
It's more than that, it's a fundamental American right, so the "but but
but my freedoms!" crowd are being massive hypocrites as usual.

The Horny Goat

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Jan 14, 2022, 10:10:32 AM (12 days ago) Jan 14
to
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:02:32 -0500, moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com>
wrote:

>> As for slavery nobody's told me to 'tote that bale' in a VERY long
>> time (I think it was during high school when our group sang "Old Man
>> RIver" which is probably now cancelled as well)
>
>The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
>voter rolls. One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
>damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.

Which still does not demonstrate favoring slavery.

In any case, with suitable advertising how long do you think it would
take minority voters to obtain such ID?

I don't know if this is handled by the local department of motor
vehicles or some other agency but once it's introduced (which
presumably would be immediately after an election to give the maximum
opportunity to register) I would expect word to get around quickly.

I'm afraid I can't remember who posted it but one of our regulars
posted a video showing numberous black Angelenos reacting with anger
to a suggestion that they couldn't quickly locate the local DMV or any
other government office.

moviePig

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Jan 14, 2022, 10:12:38 AM (12 days ago) Jan 14
to
But opponents can argue that no one's right to vote is being abrogated.
For me, the question is one of fundamental 'propriety'. I.e., in a
democracy, is it proper/ethical to dissuade one's political opposition
from voting? Though we do it routinely, I can't see canonizing it...

The Horny Goat

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 10:18:43 AM (12 days ago) Jan 14
to
On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:59:45 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>>Don't know if it's true but 2016 was said to be one of the worst in
>>the last 30 years for the Democrats in 'getting the vote out' and
>>obviously they did much better in 2020.
>
>That exactly accounts for Hillary's loss.
>
>>Hey Trump got 11-12 million MORE votes in 2020 than 2016 but the voter
>>turnout went from 56% -> 66% which is a huge improvement but still
>>lower than most of America's allies, despite the amazing amounts US
>>parties spend on election ads - they do better spending more time and
>>effort in canvassing then pushing hard to get their supporters out on
>>election day. From the numbers that looks like what Biden's people did
>>do.
>
>Sure. Campaigning 101.

Well said.

I'm currently reading "Game Change: Obama and the Clintons, McCain and
Palin, and the Race of A Lifetime" which covers the 2008 campaign and
it says that one of the major differences between Obama in 2008 and
Clinton was that he was MUCH more comfortable calling the movers and
shakers in the Democratic party asking for their support. That for
some reason Clinton was rather reticent.

Which says to me that that's a lesson from 2008 Hillary failed to
learn for 2016 and no question it hurt her in both campaigns.

Every sales person knows you have to ask for the sale even if you're
stone cold certain the customer is itching to buy what you're selling.

A Friend

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 10:38:58 AM (12 days ago) Jan 14
to
In article <ak43ug5gr9fd4vdg5...@4ax.com>, The Horny Goat
Yes. This.

Not at all the same thing, but in my senior year of high school, a guy
I'd known since I was four was running for class president. He was
meeting and greeting in a hallway as I passed by, and he told me, oh, I
don't have to ask you for your vote. Oh, really? I wound up voting
for some other guy. This would probably surprise him if he were to
read it here.

Everybody likes to be asked.

suzeeq

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 11:11:56 AM (12 days ago) Jan 14
to
Los Angeles and the location of the DMV, sure. Philadelphia or New York
though....

Adam H. Kerman

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 11:45:51 AM (12 days ago) Jan 14
to
The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:02:32 -0500, moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com> wrote:

>>>As for slavery nobody's told me to 'tote that bale' in a VERY long
>>>time (I think it was during high school when our group sang "Old Man
>>>RIver" which is probably now cancelled as well)

>>The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
>>voter rolls. One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
>>damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.

>Which still does not demonstrate favoring slavery.

He's wrong, anyway. There are no statistics to that effect. Several
states have been trying to purge voting roles of those who haven't voted
in a number of years. As long as there is a procedure to re-instate
yourself at the polls, it's not going to slash and purge.

There will be a handful of voters who for some reason are not listed on
official government databases who would be unfairly disenfranchise not
having actually moved. This is why I oppose Voter ID at the polls. But
disenfranchise enough voters to change the results of an election?
moviePig is deluded.

>. . .

Ed Stasiak

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 1:12:29 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
> The Horny Goat
>
> No question Canadian election line ups are shorter but then with
> separate federal provincial and municipal elections, this is hardly
> surprising. My ballot last September had 5 or 6 candidates and I was
> in and out in 20-30 minutes which is longer than usual but they were
> being strict on Covid protocols so the line was longer than usual.

Other then the 2016 presidential election, (where I was standing
in line for over an hour) its never taken me more then 10-15 mins
to vote.

But then I live in the ‘burbs, not the city Detroit, world renown for
its governmental incompetence at all levels…

Ed Stasiak

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 1:23:53 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
> trotsky
> > moviePig
> >
> > The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
> > voter rolls. One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
> > damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.

Absolute nonsense. Other then drug-addled kooks living in tents
down the road from BTR1701s house, the overwhelming majority
of Americans have valid legal ID.

The fact is, you pretty much can't function in modern society without
valid legal ID.

> It's more than that, it's a fundamental American right, so the "but but
> but my freedoms!" crowd are being massive hypocrites as usual.

Speaking of massive hypocrites, you're cool with literal FBI background
checks and assloaods of other restrictions (many of which require a
straight-up payment) on American’s fundamental human right to keep
and bear arms.

BTR1701

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 2:34:31 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
Ed Stasiak <edstas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> trotsky
>>> moviePig
>>>
>>> The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
>>> voter rolls. One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
>>> damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.
>
> Absolute nonsense. Other then drug-addled kooks living in tents
> down the road from BTR1701s house, the overwhelming majority
> of Americans have valid legal ID.
>
> The fact is, you pretty much can't function in modern society without
> valid legal ID.

Especially with all these Wuhan Flu vaccine passport schemes popping up all
over the country.

It's amazing how the same people who claim that requiring an ID to vote
somehow suppresses the black vote also have no problem with requiring those
same blacks to show an ID to eat at a restaurant or go to a movie or enter
a government building or do basically any other activity common to normal
life in America.

I don't know how they can go through life with that kind of cognitive
dissonance constantly buzzing around in their heads.

Rhino

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 2:44:27 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
I think that was me. I had seen the video you mention - which consists
of whites at Berkeley insisting that blacks would have trouble getting
ID followed by blacks baffled at why that would be a problem - and
posted it here, probably to support a post of BTRs. The video I posted
showed blacks in NYC - Harlem specifically - not Angelenos but perhaps
you just misremembered that detail.

Here's the link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2LpFkVfYk [less
than 5 minutes]

Poor ol' FPP really floundered in trying to rebut this video!

--
Rhino

shawn

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 3:03:06 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:34:22 -0600, BTR1701 <no_e...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Ed Stasiak <edstas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> trotsky
>>>> moviePig
>>>>
>>>> The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
>>>> voter rolls. One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
>>>> damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.
>>
>> Absolute nonsense. Other then drug-addled kooks living in tents
>> down the road from BTR1701s house, the overwhelming majority
>> of Americans have valid legal ID.
>>
>> The fact is, you pretty much can't function in modern society without
>> valid legal ID.
>
>Especially with all these Wuhan Flu vaccine passport schemes popping up all
>over the country.
>
>It's amazing how the same people who claim that requiring an ID to vote
>somehow suppresses the black vote also have no problem with requiring those
>same blacks to show an ID to eat at a restaurant or go to a movie or enter
>a government building or do basically any other activity common to normal
>life in America.

What world do you live in where that is normal? I've never shown an ID
to eat at any place, or go to a movie or anything other than if I
wanted to buy alcohol or get stopped by the cops.

Adam H. Kerman

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 3:29:45 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
After her doctor's appointment, my mother and I ate a very late
breakfast at a restaurant she likes. She had had to fast for the blood
draw. They had signs up requiring us to show vaccination record cards
with picture IDs for verification per local ordinance but the restaurant
didn't enforce it.

City of Chicago just copied New York on the proof of vaccine for
restaurants, bars, and gyms. Of course, it's just if you're seated.
Waiting inside the restaurant for takeout doesn't requiring proof.

shawn

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 3:41:39 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
Interesting. I didn't know that other cities had picked that up. Here
in Georgia it's basically same as in 2018 but with many people wearing
masks. Very few places will require proof of vaccination other than
special event locations.

moviePig

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 3:49:02 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
On 1/14/2022 1:23 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
>> trotsky
>>> moviePig
>>>
>>> The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
>>> voter rolls. One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
>>> damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.
>
> Absolute nonsense. Other then drug-addled kooks living in tents
> down the road from BTR1701s house, the overwhelming majority
> of Americans have valid legal ID.
>
> The fact is, you pretty much can't function in modern society without
> valid legal ID.
>
>> ...

Okay, why do *YOU* think the GOP is hell-bent for voter-IDs? Do you
really think it's to prevent "voter fraud"?

BTR1701

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 4:23:34 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
You will if you go to Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, or Washington DC. You
have to show your vax card plus a picture ID to do just about anything.

But somehow requiring blacks to do that isn't racist while requiring them
to show the same ID at the polls is.

BTR1701

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 4:23:35 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
Since the vax passport applies to people as young as five, how do they meet
the vax card + ID requirement? What kind of official ID does a 10-year-old
have?

anim8rfsk

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 4:25:01 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
We used to do that. Mom seemed to think that getting to eat out more than
made up for seeing the medical vampires. Even if it was just Denny’s.
Especially if it was someplace new.


--
“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

Adam H. Kerman

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 4:29:16 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
Not to mention, no child who hasn't yet passed his first driving test
has a driver's license. You gonna get the kid a state non-driver ID just
to verify the name on the vaccination record card?

trotsky

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 5:08:55 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
NOT TV RELATED.

trotsky

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 5:20:48 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
On 1/14/2022 1:34 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> Ed Stasiak <edstas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> trotsky
>>>> moviePig
>>>>
>>>> The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
>>>> voter rolls. One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
>>>> damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.
>>
>> Absolute nonsense. Other then drug-addled kooks living in tents
>> down the road from BTR1701s house, the overwhelming majority
>> of Americans have valid legal ID.
>>
>> The fact is, you pretty much can't function in modern society without
>> valid legal ID.
>
> Especially with all these Wuhan Flu vaccine passport schemes popping up all
> over the country.
>
> It's amazing how the same people who claim that requiring an ID to vote
> somehow suppresses the black vote also have no problem with requiring those
> same blacks to show an ID to eat at a restaurant



Yes, if you're a Republican that can't get elected legitimately you look
at voting like it's a disease just like Covid. You stupid fucking
bastard, you're too stupid to know how fucked you just made yourself look.

RichA

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 5:29:41 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
On Wednesday, 12 January 2022 at 21:59:59 UTC-5, weary flake wrote:
> Members of our media monopoly never differ with each other on the matter of
> election integrity nor any other subject and they have unanimously declared
> that to require picture ID for voting in the USA is the "moral equivalent of murder".
> Here's a countering statement the judge and jury at The New York Times, CBS,
> AT&T, Comcast, Disney, NBC, PBS, Zuckerberg, Larry Page and the whole gang wants
> to make illegal:
>
> from October 2021:
>
> https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/ensuring-election-integrity-anti-democratic/
>
> Sixteen years ago, in 2005, the Carter-Baker Commission on
> Federal Election Reform issued a report that proposed a uniform
> system of requiring a photo ID in order to vote in U.S.
> elections. The report also pointed out that widespread absentee
> voting makes vote fraud more likely. Voter files contain
> ineligible, duplicate, fictional, and deceased voters, a fact
> easily exploited using absentee ballots to commit fraud. Citizens
> who vote absentee are more susceptible to pressure and
> intimidation. And vote-buying schemes are far easier when
> citizens vote by mail.
>
> Who was behind the Carter-Baker Commission? Donald Trump? No. The
> Commission’s two ranking members were former President Jimmy
> Carter, a Democrat, and former Secretary of State James Baker
> III, a Republican. Other Democrats on the Commission were former
> Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle and former Indiana Congressman
> Lee Hamilton. It was a truly bipartisan commission that made what
> seemed at the time to be common sense proposals.
>
> How things have changed. Some of the Commission’s members, Jimmy
> Carter among them, came out last year to disavow the Commission’s
> work. And despite surveys showing that Americans overwhelmingly
> support measures to ensure election integrity—a recent Rasmussen
> survey found that 80 percent of Americans support a voter ID
> requirement—Democratic leaders across the board oppose such
> measures in the strongest terms.
>
> Here, for instance, is President Biden speaking recently in
> Philadelphia, condemning the idea of voter IDs: “There is an
> unfolding assault taking place in America today—an attempt to
> suppress and subvert the right to vote in fair and free
> elections, an assault on democracy, an assault on liberty, an
> assault on who we are—who we are as Americans. For, make no
> mistake, bullies and merchants of fear and peddlers of lies are
> threatening the very foundation of our country.” Sadly but
> predicably, he went on to suggest that requiring voter IDs would
> mean returning people to slavery.
>
> But the fact is that the U.S. is an outlier among the world’s
> democracies in not requiring voter ID. Of the 47 countries in
> Europe today, 46 of them currently require government-issued
> photo IDs to vote. The odd man out is the United Kingdom, in
> which Northern Ireland and many localities require voter IDs, but
> the requirement is not nationwide. The British Parliament,
> however, is considering a nationwide requirement, so very soon
> all 47 European countries will likely have adopted this
> common-sense policy.
>
> When it comes to absentee voting, we Americans, accustomed as we
> are to very loose rules, are often shocked to learn that 35 of
> the 47 European countries—including France, Italy, the
> Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden—don’t allow absentee voting for
> citizens living in country. Another ten European
> countries—including England, Ireland, Denmark, Portugal, and
> Spain—allow absentee voting, but require voters to show up in
> person and present a photo ID to pick up their ballots. It isn’t
> like in the U.S., where a person can say he’s going to be out of
> town and have a ballot mailed to him.
>
> England used to have absentee voting rules similar to ours in the
> U.S. But in 2004, in the city of Birmingham, officials uncovered
> a massive vote fraud scheme in the city council races. The six
> winning Labor candidates had fraudulently acquired about 40,000
> absentee votes, mainly from Muslim areas of the city. As a
> result, England ended the practice of mailing out absentee
> ballots and required voters to pick up their ballots in person
> with a photo ID.
>
> Up until 1975, France also had loose absentee voting rules. But
> when massive vote fraud was discovered on the island of
> Corsica—where hundreds of thousands of dead people were found to
> be voting and even larger-scale vote-buying operations were
> occurring—France banned absentee voting altogether.
>
> On the topic of buying votes, I should point out that we in the
> U.S. did not always have secret ballots. It wasn’t until 1880
> that the first state adopted the secret ballot, and the last
> state to adopt it was South Carolina in 1950. Perhaps
> surprisingly, when secret ballots were adopted, the percentage of
> people voting fell by about twelve percent. Why was that? Prior
> to the adoption of the secret ballot, lots of people would get
> paid for voting. In those days, people voted by placing pieces of
> colored paper in the ballot box, with different colors
> representing different parties. Party officials would be present
> to observe what color paper each voter put into the box, and
> depending on the color, the voter would often get paid. Secret
> ballots put an end to this practice.
>
> France learned in 1975 that the use of absentee ballots led to
> the same practice—it allowed third parties to know how people
> voted and pay them for voting a certain way. This same problem is
> now proliferating in the U.S. in the form of “ballot harvesting,”
> the increasingly common practice where party functionaries
> distribute and collect ballots.
>
> Defenders of our current voting rules point out that in lieu of
> absentee voting, some European countries allow “proxy voting,”
> whereby one person can designate another to vote for him. And
> while it is true that eight of the 47 European countries allow
> proxy voting—meaning that 39 do not—there are strict
> requirements. In five of the eight countries—Belgium, England,
> Monaco, Poland, and Sweden—proxy voting is limited to those with
> a disability or an illness or who are out of the country. In
> Poland, it also requires the approval of the local mayor, and in
> Monaco the approval of the general secretariat. In France and the
> Netherlands, proxy voting has to be arranged through a notary
> public. Switzerland is the only country in Europe with a
> relatively liberal proxy voting policy, requiring only a
> signature match.
>
> How about our neighbors, Canada and Mexico? Canada requires a
> photo ID to vote. If a voter shows up at the polls without an ID,
> he is allowed to vote only if he declares who he is in writing
> and if there is someone working at the polling station who can
> personally verify his identity.
>
> Mexico has had a long history of election fraud. Partly because
> its leaders were concerned about a drop in foreign investment if
> it wasn’t perceived to be a legitimate democracy, Mexico recently
> instituted strict reforms. Voters must present a biometric ID—an
> ID with not only a photo, but also a thumb print. Voters also
> have indelible ink applied to their thumbs, preventing them from
> voting more than once. And absentee voting is prohibited, even
> for people living outside the country.
>
> Those who oppose election integrity reform here in the U.S. often
> condemn it as a means of “voter suppression.” But in Mexico, the
> percent of people voting rose from 59 percent before the reforms
> to 68 percent after. It turned out that Mexicans were more, not
> less, likely to vote when they had confidence that their votes
> mattered.
>
> H.R. 1, the radical bill Democratic Party leaders have been
> pushing to adopt this year, would prohibit states from requiring
> voter ID and require states to allow permanent mail-in voting.
> And mail-in voting, I hardly need to point out, is even worse, in
> terms of vote fraud, than absentee voting. With absentee voting,
> a person at least has to request a ballot. With mail-in voting—as
> we saw in too many places in the 2020 election—ballots are simply
> mailed out to everyone. With loose absentee voting rules, a
> country is making itself vulnerable to vote fraud. With mail-in
> voting, a country is almost begging for vote fraud.
>
> If the rhetoric we hear from the Left today is correct—if voter
> ID requirements and restrictions on absentee (or even mail-in)
> voting are un-democratic -- then so are the countries of Europe and
> the rest of the developed world. But this is utter nonsense.
>
> Those opposing common sense measures to ensure integrity in U.S.
> elections—measures such as those recommended by the bipartisan
> Carter-Baker Commission in 2005—are not motivated by a concern
> for democracy, but by partisan interests.

Even if requiring I.D. means disenfranchising some potential voters, do they really want these people choosing?

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 14, 2022, 5:47:00 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
RichA <rande...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Even if requiring I.D. means disenfranchising some potential voters, do
>they really want these people choosing?

Go fuck yourself, Rich, and your "papers please" mentality. If the
voter's name and address on the voting rolls are correct, and he was
properly registered to vote to begin with, then he's a voter, period,
and gets to vote.

moviePig

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 6:10:26 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
On 1/14/2022 5:29 PM, RichA wrote:
> ...
>
> Even if requiring I.D. means disenfranchising some potential voters, do they really want these people choosing?

No, only some sort of democracy freak could want that.

trotsky

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Jan 14, 2022, 7:56:37 PM (11 days ago) Jan 14
to
On 1/14/2022 9:12 AM, moviePig wrote:
> On 1/14/2022 2:24 AM, trotsky wrote:
>> On 1/13/2022 6:02 PM, moviePig wrote:
>>> On 1/13/2022 6:46 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>
>>>> As for slavery nobody's told me to 'tote that bale' in a VERY long
>>>> time (I think it was during high school when our group sang "Old Man
>>>> RIver" which is probably now cancelled as well)
>>>
>>> The voter-ID is a proposal that will -- deliberately -- slash black
>>> voter rolls.  One can argue (as indeed many do) that "It's their own
>>> damn fault!", but, as the saying goes, that's putting lipstick on a pig.
>>
>> It's more than that, it's a fundamental American right, so the "but
>> but but my freedoms!" crowd are being massive hypocrites as usual.
>
> But opponents can argue that no one's right to vote is being abrogated.


They can argue that if they want to then be identified as full of shit.

Ed Stasiak

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Jan 15, 2022, 8:49:23 AM (11 days ago) Jan 15
to
> moviePig
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > Absolute nonsense. Other then drug-addled kooks living in tents
> > down the road from BTR1701s house, the overwhelming majority
> > of Americans have valid legal ID.
>
> Okay, why do *YOU* think the GOP is hell-bent for voter-IDs? Do you
> really think it's to prevent "voter fraud"?

Yes, unless you believe 47 European countries with voter ID laws are
also hell bent on preventing Black-Americans from voting.

Ed Stasiak

unread,
Jan 15, 2022, 8:50:11 AM (11 days ago) Jan 15
to
> BTR1701
>
> Since the vax passport applies to people as young as five, how do they meet
> the vax card + ID requirement? What kind of official ID does a 10-year-old
> have?

I've heard they've got electronic covid passports nowadays?…

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/73ceb402-e8d7-472e-a3ca-17956d6d53a5_1.9a67f9b248df3193a9085906c5023fab.jpeg

moviePig

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Jan 15, 2022, 10:35:47 AM (11 days ago) Jan 15
to
I didn't ask about the motives of "47 European countries"...

The Horny Goat

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Jan 15, 2022, 2:14:55 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:38:51 -0500, A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:

>Not at all the same thing, but in my senior year of high school, a guy
>I'd known since I was four was running for class president. He was
>meeting and greeting in a hallway as I passed by, and he told me, oh, I
>don't have to ask you for your vote. Oh, really? I wound up voting
>for some other guy. This would probably surprise him if he were to
>read it here.
>
>Everybody likes to be asked.

Of course they do. I ran unsuccessfully for class VP and made lots of
mistakes but definitely didn't make that one particularly with close
friends.

The Horny Goat

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Jan 15, 2022, 2:24:53 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:45:46 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>He's wrong, anyway. There are no statistics to that effect. Several
>states have been trying to purge voting roles of those who haven't voted
>in a number of years. As long as there is a procedure to re-instate
>yourself at the polls, it's not going to slash and purge.

I've never heard of that but how could that be constitutional? On the
other hand, if there is an enumeration and somebody's not listed that
could easily happen. 30 years ago my parents lost their vote when the
enumerator registered their downstairs parents (a newly married couple
who I'd known the wife since childhood) but failed to ask if anybody
else lived there - and missed my parents who at the time were out of
the country in AZ and didn't return until after the close of revisions
to the enumeration.

But then that would never happen to me since in my entire voting age
life I've only missed voting once - and that was when I was in the
midst of moving 1500 miles away 3 weeks after voting day and didn't
think I should be voting if I was going to be living elsewhere when
the winning candidate was sworn in.

>There will be a handful of voters who for some reason are not listed on
>official government databases who would be unfairly disenfranchise not
>having actually moved. This is why I oppose Voter ID at the polls. But
>disenfranchise enough voters to change the results of an election?
>moviePig is deluded.

In our area they make use of income tax records (if somebody checks
the box authorizing the tax authorities to give the data to the
elections people), motor vehicle records, and several other federal
and provincial authorities.

Now this isn't foolproof - I once was on the list twice (once under my
full legal name and once under my middle name which is what I've gone
by from early childhood) After voting I asked for the person in charge
of the voting station, told them "this person won't be voting today
because he's me and I just voted" then showed him my ID which both
showed my full name and what name I normally went by. (i.e. my
driver's licence and my VISA card)

The Horny Goat

unread,
Jan 15, 2022, 2:46:36 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 15:03:00 -0500, shawn
<nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>>It's amazing how the same people who claim that requiring an ID to vote
>>somehow suppresses the black vote also have no problem with requiring those
>>same blacks to show an ID to eat at a restaurant or go to a movie or enter
>>a government building or do basically any other activity common to normal
>>life in America.
>
>What world do you live in where that is normal? I've never shown an ID
>to eat at any place, or go to a movie or anything other than if I
>wanted to buy alcohol or get stopped by the cops.
>
We're in an area currently using vaccine passports which essentially
give your name and a VR code with your vaccine history. There's a
Chinese cafe I'm partial to and go every 1-2 weeks so they looked at
mine the first time after the edict but haven't done since. (Which got
interesting when I took my daughter from the UK there when she was
here in October as they asked for hers - which they DO use in the UK
though the waiter had never seen UK documents before) Which means in
practice that the unvaccinated are deprived on quite a few things two
years ago we would have taken for granted.

One thing that has just started was the local library is now demanding
"passports" which is a pain due to the time taken to whip it out.
They've been demanding masks for most of the year which is relatively
easy since there's nothing to check - one either is visibly wearing
one or not.

The Horny Goat

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Jan 15, 2022, 2:48:41 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 20:29:41 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>City of Chicago just copied New York on the proof of vaccine for
>restaurants, bars, and gyms. Of course, it's just if you're seated.
>Waiting inside the restaurant for takeout doesn't requiring proof.

Hmmm. The local fish + chip place made me wait outside when I did my
takeout order 2 weeks ago. I suppose I could have gone to my wallet
for my "passport"....as they're still doing eating in though have
removed about half the tables.

The Horny Goat

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Jan 15, 2022, 2:52:55 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 15:48:57 -0500, moviePig <pwal...@moviepig.com>
wrote:

>Okay, why do *YOU* think the GOP is hell-bent for voter-IDs? Do you
>really think it's to prevent "voter fraud"?

Most of the acrimony in our area refers to new immigrants usually in
their first election where their English is often suspect. In one
riding they discovered a ring collecting voting cards where it was
demonstrated one person had voted 20+ times. We're talking at most 50
incidents in a city of 2 million but that's still bad news and no
question there have been cries of racism - but then on the other hand
there have ALSO been documented cases of social media "fake news" in
Chinese language web sites that have been traced to the PRC

The Horny Goat

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Jan 15, 2022, 2:55:42 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
Many parents register their kids for Social Insurance Numbers (that's
the Canadian SSID) mostly because it's required for most education
savings plans. My son + wife expect to do the same for their child
(and for the same reason) who is due in May.

This is not however a picture ID. (I got mine as a teenager and the
physical card wore out long ago)

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 15, 2022, 3:05:30 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:45:46 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>:

>>He's wrong, anyway. There are no statistics to that effect. Several
>>states have been trying to purge voting roles of those who haven't voted
>>in a number of years. As long as there is a procedure to re-instate
>>yourself at the polls, it's not going to slash and purge.

>I've never heard of that but how could that be constitutional?

Every so often, some newspaper tries to figure out how many registered
voters as listed on the register either died or moved away to take a cheap
shot at the county clerk for incompetance. Then people get horrified
that the register doesn't get updated and that the dead vote, etc.

An easy purge is to assume that anyone not voting regularly died or
moved. You send a letter that doesn't get forwarded asking someone to
reply to prove he's alive and still resident. If there's no reply, the
name is purged.

A better way to do it is to suspend but not purge the registration to
allow the person to reinstate his registration next time he votes in
person.

>On the
>other hand, if there is an enumeration and somebody's not listed that
>could easily happen. 30 years ago my parents lost their vote when the
>enumerator registered their downstairs parents (a newly married couple
>who I'd known the wife since childhood) but failed to ask if anybody
>else lived there - and missed my parents who at the time were out of
>the country in AZ and didn't return until after the close of revisions
>to the enumeration.

Fine. In the United States, the census registry is not used as the voter
register.

>>. . .

moviePig

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Jan 15, 2022, 3:56:16 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
I don't think there's much (honest) debate that voter-encumbrances are
being pursued in the U.S. today almost solely to reduce the Lib turnout.
Ymmv on the acceptability of that motive and tactic.

anim8rfsk

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Jan 15, 2022, 5:18:06 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
May as well given that they don’t actually deliver either form to the
people and just make up the results they want.

shawn

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Jan 15, 2022, 6:30:53 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 15:18:02 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net>
wrote:
It's not the Census Bureau fault that your postman is friends with
Pharmacy Girl and so sabotages all your mail deliveries.

BTR1701

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Jan 15, 2022, 6:50:39 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
And libs try to enact all sorts of shenanigans to reduce the Republican
vote, too.

E.g., their relentless push for ballot harvesting, which throws the door
wide open for corruption and fraud and is therefore illegal in the vast
majority of states, but they're attempting to override those state laws
with their 'voting rights' act and make ballot harvesting legal nationwide

Then there's the indefatigable Democrat push to allow non-citizens to vote,
even as they throw open our border to hundreds of thousands of illegal
aliens.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/09/new-york-allows-non-citizens-vote-controversial-law

And for all their bitching and moaning about Republican gerrymandering, the
Democrats' own gerrymandering in this latest round of redistricting has
resulted in a greater net benefit for them than for Republicans. More seats
will either be retained as Democrat or switched from Republican to Democrat
than vice versa. Yet Republicans are supposedly the ones who are 'killing
democracy' with gerrymandering.

Rhino

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Jan 15, 2022, 7:00:26 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
They won't even replace SIN (Social Insurance Number) cards any more.
Mine is in rather mangled shape because it was made of a rather brittle
plastic that didn't stand the test of time; various corners have broken
off and there are large cracks in the card. I went to the local
government office a few years ago to replace it but got handed a form
advising me that they simply don't replace them any more. (That's not a
problem really since I memorized mine back when I first got it and still
haven't forgotten it.)

--
Rhino

anim8rfsk

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Jan 15, 2022, 7:08:09 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
When I signed up for Social Security they gave me a new SSN card because
mine had disintegrated after being in my wallet for 50 years.

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 15, 2022, 7:13:03 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
BTR1701 <no_e...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>And for all their bitching and moaning about Republican gerrymandering, the
>Democrats' own gerrymandering in this latest round of redistricting has
>resulted in a greater net benefit for them than for Republicans. More seats
>will either be retained as Democrat or switched from Republican to Democrat
>than vice versa. Yet Republicans are supposedly the ones who are 'killing
>democracy' with gerrymandering.

At what level of government? That sure as hell isn't true for Congress.

BTR1701

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Jan 15, 2022, 8:09:55 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15
to
Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
It includes Congress and all state legislatures.

Adam H. Kerman

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Jan 15, 2022, 10:11:50 PM (10 days ago) Jan 15