OLTL: Gottlieb-Malone ... a debate

[SandyWeeks]

It occured to me the other day that the OLTL RATSA group needs a good, heated
debate, like they do with AMC and GH. Since there is little to debate
about OLTL currently (ie, we all agree the show sucks), I thought I'd post
a portion of an E-mail I wrote to Marg Harris (also of RATSA) re: the
Gottlieb-Malone years. I am fully prepared to be crucified for the following
post, but I'm hoping there are others out there that agree with me as well.
Here goes:

...
> Sandy, I'd be interested in your perspective on this. When I started
> watching OLTL in summer of 94, I believe Susan H was already the producer
> - and I thought the show was pretty good then, good enough at least to
> make me switch from AMC.

Yes, you began watching in the first month or two of Horgan's era and
it's no surprise that you thought it was pretty good - it *was* pretty
good. But it was not due at all to Horgan - IMHO, the show was still moving
off the momentum of Linda Gottlieb. The storylines in the Spring of 1994
were fantastic ... and unlike what most people have said, there were *two*
major stories going - (1) Todd's redemption had begun after saving Marty
and the kids in the car wreck, and (2) Dorian and Viki were dueling it out
in the courtroom. After Gottlieb left, the stories played themselves out
fairly decently and kept the show watchable through summer. After that...
read below... :)

> Gottlieb even worse than Malone. You've watched the show through a
> lot of years - what was happening to it in 91 that made you want to quit,
> and what changes did you see that Gottlieb/Malone made (it was my
> understanding that Gottlieb brought Malone on)? And, when Susan H came
> on, what changes did you see then that you didn't like?

OK - it's true that Gottlieb brought Malone on shortly after her arrival in
June-July of 1991.

Let me just say that the whole mid-1991 era on OLTL was so horrible, that I
can remember very little about it, because I'd nearly stopped watching.
But here were the reasons *why* I nearly quit...

1) Paul Rauch, the executive producer from cca. 1985-1991, was infamous for
his outrageous, unheard-of storylines. Check my History Page and
read about the underground city, the time-travel plot, Viki's
exploits in Heaven, etc.

Admittedly, this carried the show very well until 1990. Viewers were
hooked, because the stories were completely original. And OLTL
spared no expense - you should have *seen* the Eterna set -
we're talking huge! And Rauch was famous for location shoots -
usually one a year in some exotic locale - Argentina, Austria,
Arizona, etc...

BUT - you can only get away with this for so long. Rauch's extreme
storylines came at the expense of good, true-to-life storytelling.
By 1991, as the ratings began to drop, Rauch realized this. I'm
not sure what happened, but he dropped the ball.

The storylines became sooooooo boring, sooooo unwatchable. And then he
did the unthinkable...
2) He started alienating the cast in the worst possible ways. The show
became one gigantic revolving door. So many favorite characters left
in disgust over their ridiculous storylines, it was devastating. I
believe that's what caused the mega-drop in ratings, from which OLTL
has never recovered, 5 years later .... Among the victims:

a) Gabrielle Holden: I'm sure by now, you've heard a lot about
her. She was the quintessential good-bad girl: Todd's
female counterpart. She did some horrific things (never murder)
but she also had a heart. Fiona Hutchison was fantastic.
Then her storyline turned awful, the writers wrote her into a
corner (Gabby tried to kill Viki with poison). Fiona got fed
up and she bailed out... I don't blame her.

b) Max Holden (as played by Nicholas Walker): The viewers were
just getting used to this "new Max" when he was axed. Granted,
Nick Walker could never have topped Jim DePaiva, but the
character deserved better. That's why one of the first things
Gottlieb did when she arrived, was to hire Jim DePaiva back.

c) Cord Roberts: Written *terribly*. Unfortunately, he didn't have
too much chemistry with Karen Witter's Tina (IMO). He was written
about as horribly as he's being written today. I don't think he
had much faith in Gottlieb, so he quit first chance he got
(December 91)

d) Brenda McGillis: perhaps the most understated heroine in recent
years. She was the perrenial victim of 1989-1991 ... yet she
never whined about it, like Marty did, not once. When her
storyline died out, she was forced out.

e) Sarah Gordon: another wildly popular character, played by Jensen
Buchanan. I'm not sure why she left, only that she was fed up
with the show.

f) Roger Gordon: such a wonderful character, with *so* much
potential - axed for lack of storyline.

g) ANDREA EVANS!!! Andrea left of her own accord, for reasons
unrelated to the show (she was being stalked), but that one loss
was horrible. She'd grown to be the show's rising heroine.
When she left, it was as if half the show went with her.
(Comparable to what happened when Todd left). Disasterous.
And it took a *long* time to warm up to Karen Witter's Tina,
although she eventually became just as good as Evans.

h) Jake Harrison: Joe Lando was just rising in popularity - Jake
and Megan were one of the best couples in OLTL History. Then
he left the show and what few viewers were left, went with him.

i) A myriad of lesser characters, who nonetheless had become
enjoyable to watch: Dan Wolek, Andy Harrison, Hunter Guthrie, etc.

3) The storylines died out - the writing became slow and boring. Yet, oddly
enough, I think it was still better than OLTL today. (Why *am* I still
watching?) The plots, basically, were lame. They tried pairing Bo and
a newly-returned-and-recast Cassie (a disaster), they tried to tell a
story of young love between Kevin and Carlo's neice Stephanie (a
disaster). They fumbled terribly with Megan's character. Without Jake
she became an aimless wanderer. I couldn't take it. The show had become
a mess. I started watching once a week (Granted I was only 13-14 yrs. old
at the time, and had school, but *still*...) :)

That's basically all I can remember ... a general feeling of disappointment.
I couldn't believe that Gabrielle's departure wasn't temporary. Or Jake's.
I made up my mind to quit.

THEN CAME GOTTLIEB.

Four words - breath of fresh air. It was a veritable miracle.
Characters I'd grown to despise became wonderful (most importantly, Karen
Witter's Tina). Characters were given direction. Viki came down from
her high-and-mighty pedestal. Megan became an absolute wonder.

That was when Gottlieb began her famous "hiring spree" From August to
December 1991, she probably hired 10 new actors/actresses. And they were
spectacular and original...

a) Luna Moody (August). I'd have to say Luna is probably my
favorite character of all time. New-age goddess worshipper?
Parachuted onto Llanfair's lawn? And *so* funny and full of
warmth. Luna and Tina became best friends and this is what
brought Karen Witter's Tina back from the dead. (Previously,
Tina had been Gabrielle's ally and while cold-hearted
manipulation suited Gabby, it didn't suit Tina.

b) Andrew Carpenter (October). You probably wouldn't believe it,
but Andrew was a fantastic character. His first meeting with
Megan in the cemetery was so poignant ... over the months, it
became heart-wrenching to watch Andrew pine after Megan, knowing
they could never be together. Andrew continued to be one of my
favorite characters until Gottlieb left. Horgan has never known
how to handle his character - we never see his religious side
anymore, unless he's being sanctimonious or self-righteous.
He used to be full of life, and heroic. He shot a man to save
Jake Harrison's life. He fought against all of Llanview when
people accused him of molestation. He was voted "Best Hero" in
one of the magazines in 1993.

c) Sarah Gordon: brought her back from the dead with an actress
who was even *better* than Jensen Buchanan!

d) Jason Webb: Wanda's Harley-riding nephew. What a fantastic
idea - watching quirky, bubbly, emotional Wanda deal with her
rebel nephew. And Jason became a great character, too.

e) Blair Daimler: The one character who has retained an ounce of
her original self. Personally, I liked Mia Korf as Blair better
than KWD - she was *soooo* icy and methodical when it came to her
plot against Dorian, but melted in every scene with Max. What a
triangle! Luna-Max-Blair!

f) Hank Gannon: Was always a little egotistical, but never a
bonehead, like he's become now.

g) Marty Saybrooke: Marg, I swear, this character was at one time
so gripping. Her evil days in Llanview were fantastic - she was
"one sick puppy" you might say.

h) Sloan Carpenter: I never thought I'd grow to like his character
but he made a remarkable, realistic transformation from heartless
brute to loving father.

2) Gottlieb's stories were very true-to-life, very meaningful, never trite
or predictable. I would sum up the Gottlieb years with one word: "classy".
OLTL ceased to be a "soap opera" in the stereotypical sense of the word. It
became a full-fledged "drama". Every day was exciting, emotional,
fast-paced. When my family went on vacation for two weeks in Summer 92,
I had a friend tape the show everyday, because I couldn't miss it.
Gottlieb, who produced "Dirty Dancing" brought to OLTL a very theatrical
edge ... she revamped the dorky, formulaic music and camera shots. Some
of the scenes from Megan Gordon's death looked like they were cut from a
feature film. She was also big on meaningful symbolism.

Most powerful scene: Andrew being beaten up ON THE CHURCH LAWN by an
angry parishioner, who was calling him some awful names. And in the
foreground, Andrew's Bible in the grass, the wind whipping the pages into
a frenzy. It was scenes like this that made the show so gut-wrenching,
and I still get a chill up my spine as I think about it again. I wish I
could put my love for this show during that time into words ... when I
send you that Todd-tape I'll send another one with my favorite scenes on it.

Basically, that sums up what Gottlieb brought to the show: class, fantastic,
original characters; a writer who scripted fanatastic, original stories,
and infusing the show with a sense of something much more than a "soap"...

Why did so many people hate her? Hard to say, but Gottlieb had one flaw...

She *did* focus on the characters she created, leaving the others in the> backg
round. (exception of Viki, and sometimes Bo and Asa). She let some
truly historical figures go ... Anthony Call as Herb Callison,
Marilyn Chris as Wanda Wolek (oh, I *hated* to see her go!), she put
Michael Storm (Larry) on recurring status, which is a shame, etc.

But I overlooked that because she worked wonders with every character on the
show, giving OLTL in essence an overhaul.

Phew! (Wiping sweat off forehead) Now, to SUSAN HORGAN.

I knew from the moment I heard of Gottlieb's impending departure, what was
coming. No one could possible top Gottlieb, so I just hoped that Horgan
wouldn't be too much worse. Well she was. After Gottlieb left, the
stories got progressively worse.

This is why I attribute the success of OLTL more to Gottlieb than Malone.
Under Gottlieb, Malone's writing was superb. Under Horgan's it stank.
Basically it was a well-known fact that Gottlieb was a slave-driver - she
wasn't satisfied with less than 100%. And it showed.

The stories after Gottlieb were given quite less than 100%. The prime
offenders:

MAX'S GAMBLING ADDICTION: Did the most damage, IMO, of all Malone's stories.
Max ceased being a loving, free-spirited guy. He became a louse, who
treated Luna and Al like crap, and slept with Blair!! His character
was not given an ounce of sympathy. Jim DePaiva is much better at
playing comedy or action, rather than drama and he came off very
stiff and wooden. And poor Luna's character was ruined. She lost
that wonderful magic she once had.

THE KILLER VIRUS: Oh God, don't make me think about this story again!
Viki, Beth Garvey, and various others fell ill from a mysterious
illness. The solution could hardly have been less satisfying -
it was due to a hospital administrator who cut costs by buying
cheap syringes to give flu shots. Puke.

THE SERIAL RAPES: Rarely have I been so offended by a storyline. If there
was ever a more heartless depiction of women, I don't want to know
about it. The rape victims were merely recurring characters, plot
devices. (Like that little girl with AIDS last fall) And turning
Powell into a psycho just didn't cut it. Puke.

THE LORD HEIR: This I actually found interesting. I liked David Vickers,
both unfortunately my enjoyment of the story was reduced by the
presence of one Krista Tesreau as Tina. Coming on the heels of the
fabulous Karen Witter didn't help...

About the time of the MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES, I thought the show was
beginning to improve. But when the story failed to be resolved after 6 mos,
I knew I was wrong. You see, Gottlieb was famous for what she called the
"short arc" - a storyline that played out over 3 mos, and rarely longer
(though the repercussions lasted years). This kept the show moving. When
Gottlieb left, the "short arcs" went with her and you see the result ...

Horgan made some horrendous casting decisions. (I know she's not the
Casting Director, but she does have the ultimate say on who stays and who
goes)

Mari Morrow's Rachel was obnoxious and unwatchable. And she couldn't act!

Jack Armstrong's Kevin just didn't have the "feel." The one following him
couldn't act for his life!

Wendee Pratt's Andy. I've said it before, I say it again - I don't like
this revivial of Andy. She was once spunky and strong ... this weak,
whining model I can't stand.

Krista Tesreau's Tina. This e-mail's too long as it is, without my going
into this.

Chris Douglas's Dylan. 'Nuff said.

Granted, there were some wonderful additions ... David, RJ, Patrick,
the Vegas, etc. But unfortunately, the net result was failure. When they
killed off Luna, rather than finding a way for Susan Batten to return, I
knew this exec-producer had to go.

I truly don't understand what it was about the Gottlieb years that the
people on RATSA hated, or why OLTL didn't fare better in the ratings during
those years (although they were better than they are today). When I first
read the views on Gottlieb-Malone on RATSA, I was floored. Oh well... to
each his/her own.

Can OLTL get worse? Well, yes and no.

It can get worse for the people who watch it. But if it gets worse than
it is right now, I won't be among them. And this is coming from someone
who spent weeks creating the OLTL History Page, out of love for this
show and its characters. I can't bear to see what's happening to the show.
It's painful. It's more than a slump. It's a tradition.

...

Well, there you are, RATSA-folk. Confessions of a diehard Gottlieb fan.
(Not that I didn't like Rauch - I just thought he dropped the ball badly
toward the end of his reign)

So, ahem, what does everyone else think?

Sandy "pooped from cutting-and-pasting" Weeks

[jody]

SandyWeeks wrote:

>It occured to me the other day that the OLTL RATSA group needs a good, heated

>debate....

<snip>

> a) Luna Moody (August). I'd have to say Luna is probably my
> favorite character of all time. New-age goddess worshipper?

<snip>

The character of Luna drove me NUTZ! Every time I heard her say "goddess" or
spout her new age flakey philosophy, it was like nails on a chalkboard. I
thought I had tuned in to some independent/public access wacked-out religious
programming. I got so sick of having new age shoved down my throat that I was
ready to quit--when, thankfully, Luna died!

jody
ms...@sprynet.com
Legal Counsel for Patrick's Artistic Integrity

[Carolyn Adams]

In article <52r5g0$o...@juliana.sprynet.com>, ms...@sprynet.com says...
>

>
>The character of Luna drove me NUTZ! Every time I heard her say "goddess" or
>spout her new age flakey philosophy, it was like nails on a chalkboard. I
>thought I had tuned in to some independent/public access wacked-out religious
>programming. I got so sick of having new age shoved down my throat that I was
>ready to quit--when, thankfully, Luna died!

Thank you, Jody. Among some, it's unpatriotic to say anything
negative about Luna. I hated her too. So much so that I
ff'd every scene. But thanks to Gottlieb and Malone's vision, I
realized all I did was ff. And eventually I just took OLTL out of
the vcr's program entirely, and added AMC. Worked for me.

AMC is still a soap with a strong Agnes Nixon influence. The only
influence Agnes has had on OLTL in the past several years is veto
power over Malone's worst choices. From what I hear, Agnes has
kept the show from being even worse than it is. Too bad we can't
clone Agnes to bring back real OLTL.

--Carolyn

[Eurydice]

In article <52r5g0$o...@juliana.sprynet.com>, ms...@sprynet.com (jody) says:

>
>SandyWeeks wrote:
>
>>It occured to me the other day that the OLTL RATSA group needs a good, heated

>>debate....
>
><snip>

>
>> a) Luna Moody (August). I'd have to say Luna is probably my
>> favorite character of all time. New-age goddess worshipper?
>

><snip>

>
>The character of Luna drove me NUTZ! Every time I heard her say "goddess" or
>spout her new age flakey philosophy, it was like nails on a chalkboard. I
>thought I had tuned in to some independent/public access wacked-out religious
>programming. I got so sick of having new age shoved down my throat that I was
>ready to quit--when, thankfully, Luna died!
>

>jody
>ms...@sprynet.com
>Legal Counsel for Patrick's Artistic Integrity
>

Luna was OK when she first appeared. I loved the episode where she helped Tina
have a past-life regression. But after she and Max got together, and then
Blair came back, and then Max started gamblin, and then her & Max finally
reunited, I got really fed up. I agree that the new age stuff got completely
obnoxious, whereas in the beginning it was kind of a fun dimension of the
character. She was pretty blah by the time TPTB killed her off, so I didn't
miss her as much as I missed Megan or Todd when they died.

--Suze

[SandyWeeks]

In article <52rf9d$5...@news.enter.net>, ca...@enter.net says...

>
>AMC is still a soap with a strong Agnes Nixon influence. The only
>influence Agnes has had on OLTL in the past several years is veto
>power over Malone's worst choices. From what I hear, Agnes has
>kept the show from being even worse than it is. Too bad we can't
>clone Agnes to bring back real OLTL.
>
>--Carolyn
>

Why hasn't Agnes Nixon tried to exert more influence in OLTL these
past years? If she's so disappointed with how her first show turned
out, why doesn't she decide to pay attention to OLTL a little more,
rather than completely ignore it?

And I still don't understand how Michael Malone's stories of social
issues (rape, homophobia, gang violence) in the ethnically and economically
diverse Llanview strays at all from Nixon's original idea - sure the
characaters are different, but then again, it's twenty-eight years since
the show debuted. I think Gottlieb and Malone did a hell of a lot more
justice to Nixon's original dream than did Rauch and his writers' stories
of underground civilizations and time travel, etc.

Sandy

[mha...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca]

SandyWeeks wrote:

: Basically, that sums up what Gottlieb brought to the show: class, fantastic,

: original characters; a writer who scripted fanatastic, original stories,
: and infusing the show with a sense of something much more than a "soap"...

Fantastic post Sandy, and thanks for the e-mail too! As for the Gottlieb
years debate, I really can't add much, since I didn't start watching the
show until after she left. However, I will say that I've just recently
had a chance to see the Rape of Marty on back tapes ... and I was stunned.
The realism was incredible. Not that they went into great graphic details
of the rape (thank heavens), but that the situation and characterizations
were such that I could imagine that something like that could have
actually happened. I didn't think Todd was all that exaggerated in that
story (he became more exaggerated later). And, IMO, only in a soap could
a story like that have been treated in such an in-depth, complex way. If
that was an example of the kind of thing that Gottlieb produced, then
kudos to her, I have nothing but admiration.

Marg mha...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

[Carolyn Adams]

In article <52ruh8$5...@lex.zippo.com>, SandyWeeks says...

>
>In article <52rf9d$5...@news.enter.net>, ca...@enter.net says...
>>
>>AMC is still a soap with a strong Agnes Nixon influence. The only
>>influence Agnes has had on OLTL in the past several years is veto
>>power over Malone's worst choices. From what I hear, Agnes has
>>kept the show from being even worse than it is. Too bad we can't
>>clone Agnes to bring back real OLTL.
>>
>>--Carolyn
>
>Why hasn't Agnes Nixon tried to exert more influence in OLTL these
>past years?

Because she's only one woman, and she doesn't have to work
40 hours a week any more. She's a consultant.

>
>And I still don't understand how Michael Malone's stories of social
>issues (rape, homophobia, gang violence) in the ethnically and economically
>diverse Llanview strays at all from Nixon's original idea

Nixon knew how to create a universe of characters and let all the
drama flow from them. The social issues under Nixon's watch was
character driven, and wasn't shoved down your throat as Gottlieb
Malone did. Malone always had to bring new characters in that he
created for any major issue story he ever brought us. He let the characters
already on the canvas rot. Or changed them to fit his plot.

With Malone, you always knew exactly the political point he was
trying to make. There was even a thread about that here
recently, although they were blaming it on the current writers.
They were just following Malone. In my opinion, social issues
work best when the viewer is allowed to see both sides and come
to his own conclusion, rather than being lead down a path to the
One and Only Truth. That's an element of Malone's writing that
turned me off from day one, and that social issue story was the
wife beating one. One of the short arcs that didn't work. Initially
the ABC party line was that Gottlieb was brilliant for "saving" OLTL
with these wonderful important short arcs. Finally, even Malone
acknowledged they were a mistake. One of the big problems with
a headwriter who has to learn what soap opera is on the job.

Malone always tried to tell us he was recreating Nixon's 1968 OLTL by
his East Llanview (ghetto) addition. The ethnics in original Llanview
were Polish, and Jewish, and WASPs. I live in a small town in PA, not
unlike Llanview, and those are the ethnics around here. Except we have
a few more Middle Europeans and Northern Europeans represented.
Malone has created a city ethnicity. Maybe he should have created
The City instead. It sure doesn't resemble the Llanview I've known
for 25 years on tv, or the reality that Nixon based it on.

--Carolyn

[Linda Martindale]

On 1 Oct 1996 SandyWeeks@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> Why hasn't Agnes Nixon tried to exert more influence in OLTL these

> past years? If she's so disappointed with how her first show turned
> out, why doesn't she decide to pay attention to OLTL a little more,
> rather than completely ignore it?
>

I think it is pretty much like the other shows that has lost the original
voice. They may have some input, but since they left they're out in the
cold. Agnes Nixon is an amazing woman. She just recently (last few
years) returned to AMC and came back as head writer. Once you create a
show, you can't re-create it.

> And I still don't understand how Michael Malone's stories of social
> issues (rape, homophobia, gang violence) in the ethnically and economically

> diverse Llanview strays at all from Nixon's original idea - sure the
> characaters are different, but then again, it's twenty-eight years since
> the show debuted.

It doesn't. The show originated with social issues and during the Malone
era (since that who people are down on presently) kept it up. He had
spousal abuse, drugs, rape, homophobia, gang violence which are all
current issues. Some want fantasy and that's fine. But frankly, I
prefer a mix of both which a good story teller can use. I wasn't
watching when the show originated but I understand it had a middle class
family and a power family. Today, the power families far outweigh the
middle class families (which is sad). But, for social issues, OLTL
during Malone still faced them. The issues were different and he had to
take a different slant. Of course, times have changed since the late
sixties. Then we had Vietnam and protests. Today we have rapes on
campus and gangs. What are the differences?

>I think Gottlieb and Malone did a hell of a lot more
> justice to Nixon's original dream than did Rauch and his writers' stories
> of underground civilizations and time travel, etc.
>

I'll agree with clarification here. Each executive producer has brought
their own unique touches. I loved the heaven scenes. Rauch did include
some social conscious moments (i.e. when Clint went blind). But fantasy
today has to be subtle because we expect special effects. I don't think
daytime has that kind of budget.

> Sandy
>
Linda M>