[OT] Last Night's Angel - "Spin The Bottle" *spoilers*
FilmCritic3000
Bravo, Mr. Whedon. Joss managed to make a truly hilarious episode before we
head into the big darkness ahead. Cordy's Queen C made a welcome return, we
revisit Wesley's wimpy presence of yesterday, and Fred was apparently quite the
little pothead with sexual fantasies about visitors from outer space (priceless
Wes reaction to that comment) Meanwhile Gunn was, of course, all brash and
immature. I also thoroughly enjoyed the exchange between Wes and Gunn prior to
the memory spell ceremony. Cordy's reaction to her hair, Wes' reaction to the
spring-loaded weapons,, all great comedy. We also got to see how utterly alike
Connor and Angel are in regards to how they feel/felt about their fathers. It's
great to have Cordelia back, the towel was a great wardrobe choice, and
finally, it looks like all hell is going to break loose next week. This episode
showed why Joss' shows tower above all others: the characters.
Jason
("I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me")
MST#16103
From the creator of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
FIREFLY
FRIDAYS AT 8/7C ON FOX
Fish Eye no Miko
news:20021111120137...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> *applause*
>
> Bravo, Mr. Whedon. Joss managed to make a truly hilarious episode
> before we head into the big darkness ahead.
Indeed.
Yay!
> Cordy's Queen C made a welcome return, we revisit Wesley's wimpy
> presence of yesterday, and Fred was apparently quite the little pothead
> with sexual fantasies about visitors from outer space
And, oddly, I'm not surprised... ^_^
> (priceless Wes reaction to that comment) Meanwhile Gunn was, of course,
> all brash and immature.
"Your ass better pray I don't look that [word] up."
> I also thoroughly enjoyed the exchange between Wes and Gunn prior to
> the memory spell ceremony. Cordy's reaction to her hair,
I hope this means she's gonna grow it back...
> Wes' reaction to the spring-loaded weapons,, all great comedy. We also
> got to see how utterly alike Connor and Angel are in regards to how they
> feel/felt about their fathers.
Telling, but not particularly surprising. We've known for a long time
Angel hates his dad. And Connor.. well...
> It's great to have Cordelia back, the towel was a great wardrobe choice,
> and finally, it looks like all hell is going to break loose next week.
This
> episode showed why Joss' shows tower above all others: the characters.
A few questions:
Why didn't Angel have his accent? Accents are mental, not physical. Since
Angel's mind was of his 17-year old, IRISH self, he should've had the
accent
Cordy knew about demons and all that by the time she was 17...
> ("I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me")
...after he'd been lying to them for weeks, stole his boss's baby, and gave
it to his arch-enemy. Convenient how he leaves that part out.
I'm sick of Wes' self-pitying--he brought most of his problems on himself.
Even arguably, the throat slitting--why did he trust someone who worked
with/for Holtz?
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"There's a bald guy in a wheelchair waiting outside the delivery room to
talk to you."
-One of the Signs Your Baby Might Be a Mutant, from TopFive.com.
Tammy Stephanie Davis
FilmCritic3000 <filmcri...@aol.com> wrote:
:*applause*
:
:Bravo, Mr. Whedon. Joss managed to make a truly hilarious episode before we
:head into the big darkness ahead. Cordy's Queen C made a welcome return, we
:revisit Wesley's wimpy presence of yesterday, and Fred was apparently quite the
:little pothead with sexual fantasies about visitors from outer space (priceless
:Wes reaction to that comment) Meanwhile Gunn was, of course, all brash and
:immature. I also thoroughly enjoyed the exchange between Wes and Gunn prior to
:the memory spell ceremony. Cordy's reaction to her hair, Wes' reaction to the
:spring-loaded weapons,, all great comedy. We also got to see how utterly alike
:Connor and Angel are in regards to how they feel/felt about their fathers. It's
:great to have Cordelia back, the towel was a great wardrobe choice, and
:finally, it looks like all hell is going to break loose next week. This episode
:showed why Joss' shows tower above all others: the characters.
Very funny, insightful episode. Have to watch it again to pickup on all
the funny lines as I missed a few of them the first time around.
---TSD(And yes...Joss is a God.)
--
Tammy Stephanie Davis
Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
:"FilmCritic3000" <filmcri...@aol.com> wrote in message
Denial is Wesley's middle name right now. Until he owes up to his own
betrayal and abandonment of his friends, he'll never never be at peace
or at ease with himself.
---TSD(Wesley is one messed up man....)
--
Fish Eye no Miko
news:jlVz9.717$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> :"FilmCritic3000" <filmcri...@aol.com> wrote:
> :
> :> ("I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me")
> :
> :...after he'd been lying to them for weeks, stole his boss's baby, and
> :gave it to his arch-enemy. Convenient how he leaves that part out.
> :I'm sick of Wes' self-pitying--he brought most of his problems on
himself.
> :Even arguably, the throat slitting--why did he trust someone who worked
> :with/for Holtz?
>
> Denial is Wesley's middle name right now.
Apparently.
But thing is, didn't he say that to Gunn? Why didn't Gunn (or any of the
others) call him on it?
"Wait... *we* abandoned you*, Mr. Baby-snatcher?"
> Until he owes up to his own betrayal and abandonment of his friends,
he'll
> never never be at peace or at ease with himself.
He'll, I'd be happy if he'd just stop boffing Lilah. I'd rather see a
EPISODE'S worth of Angel singing than even see them together in a situation
that doesn't involve him killing her (or vice versa. I'm not gonna be
picky)
> ---TSD(Wesley is one messed up man....)
What do you expect? A *happy* person in a Joss Whedon series?
Catherine Johnson. Did that sound bitter?
--
dis "able" to reply
"Early to bed, early to rise, drive through the drive-thru and get me some
fries."
-The Narrator, during an eyecatch for _Cartoon Planet_.
Panthea
> A few questions:
> Why didn't Angel have his accent? Accents are mental, not physical. Since
> Angel's mind was of his 17-year old, IRISH self, he should've had the
> accent
'Cause Boreanaz can't do an Irish accent to save his life and ME is
getting tired of people complaining? :-)
> Cordy knew about demons and all that by the time she was 17...
They were 16. Cordy says something about a "sophomore hazing prank", and
Buffy didn't move to Sunnydale till halfway through sophomore year. Even
then, Cordy didn't know quite what was going on till the end of the
school year.
> > ("I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me")
>
> ...after he'd been lying to them for weeks, stole his boss's baby, and gave
> it to his arch-enemy. Convenient how he leaves that part out.
Because it was prophecied that Angel would kill his son. Okay, what Wes
did was kind of dumb. But they all *knew* why he did it, and that he
only had their best interests at heart, and they still shut him out and
abandoned him. Christ's sake, Angel even tried in earnest to kill him.
Granted, I skipped most of last season's eps, so I'm not the most
objective judge. But I tend to side with Wesley on this one. He was an
idiot, but the MoG were unforgiveable.
Anyway. Yes. Great fun last night. :-)
Pan
Tammy Stephanie Davis
:news:jlVz9.717$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
:
:> Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
:> :"FilmCritic3000" <filmcri...@aol.com> wrote:
:> :
:> :> ("I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me")
:> :
:> :...after he'd been lying to them for weeks, stole his boss's baby, and
:> :gave it to his arch-enemy. Convenient how he leaves that part out.
:> :I'm sick of Wes' self-pitying--he brought most of his problems on
:himself.
:> :Even arguably, the throat slitting--why did he trust someone who worked
:> :with/for Holtz?
:>
:> Denial is Wesley's middle name right now.
:
:Apparently.
:But thing is, didn't he say that to Gunn? Why didn't Gunn (or any of the
:others) call him on it?
:"Wait... *we* abandoned you*, Mr. Baby-snatcher?"
I'm assuming Charles was too shocked by the knife and Wesley's
answer to respond. But I'm hoping someone, sometime soon calls
him on this because this "my friends betrayed me" attitude is
getting really tired.
:> Until he owes up to his own betrayal and abandonment of his friends,
:he'll
:> never never be at peace or at ease with himself.
:
:He'll, I'd be happy if he'd just stop boffing Lilah. I'd rather see a
:EPISODE'S worth of Angel singing than even see them together in a situation
:that doesn't involve him killing her (or vice versa. I'm not gonna be
:picky)
I don't know why ME is all into "I hate myself, so I'll screw evil"
stuff, but I wish they'd stop. I didn't/don't find any of the
pairings - Angel/Darla, Buffy/Spike, and Wesley/Lillah - attractive,
sexy or erotic, but rather desperate, sad and very icky.
:> ---TSD(Wesley is one messed up man....)
:
:What do you expect? A *happy* person in a Joss Whedon series?
Not necessarily, but I do want *hopeful* people; people who
still believe in fighting the good fight and showing some focus
on helping/saving people other than themselves. This hasn't been
happening as much on Angel as I would like.
:Catherine Johnson. Did that sound bitter?
---TSD(Just a tad. ;) )
--
Tammy Stephanie Davis
:Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
:> A few questions:
:> Why didn't Angel have his accent? Accents are mental, not physical. Since
:> Angel's mind was of his 17-year old, IRISH self, he should've had the
:> accent
:
:'Cause Boreanaz can't do an Irish accent to save his life and ME is
:getting tired of people complaining? :-)
:
:> Cordy knew about demons and all that by the time she was 17...
:
:They were 16. Cordy says something about a "sophomore hazing prank", and
:Buffy didn't move to Sunnydale till halfway through sophomore year. Even
:then, Cordy didn't know quite what was going on till the end of the
:school year.
:
:> > ("I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me")
:>
:> ...after he'd been lying to them for weeks, stole his boss's baby, and gave
:> it to his arch-enemy. Convenient how he leaves that part out.
:
:Because it was prophecied that Angel would kill his son. Okay, what Wes
:did was kind of dumb. But they all *knew* why he did it, and that he
:only had their best interests at heart, and they still shut him out and
:abandoned him. Christ's sake, Angel even tried in earnest to kill him.
Following is what I posted in the alt.tv.angel newsgroup when others
made similar arguements:
"The problem I have with Wesley isn't that he didn't tell/trust
Angel (given Angel's odd behavior and vampiric nature in general this
was perfectly understandable), its that he didn't tell or trust
*anyone*. Not Fred, the woman he loved or wanted to love; not
Loren, the aura-reading demon who knows Angel so well that he
doesn't have to sing for a reading anymore; not Cordelia, who he
has known and fought evil with for well over three years; and not Charles,
his best friend."
"Wesley told no one about the prophecy and told no one that he was not
bringing Connor back. And that makes what he did just plain wrong."
I also would add that Wesley chose not to tell Angel & Company that
Holtz was about to attack the hotel. Given this plus his physical
assault on Loren makes the idea that he had their best interests
at heart almost laughable.
Finally, Angel did not try to kill Wesley in the hospital. Angel is
a 250+ year old vampire who has been shown to kick severe ass
half a dozen times over on every vampire, demon, monster and human
being imagineable. There is no way in the world that a couple of
hospital orderlies could have pulled Angel away from Wesley *unless he let
them*. Scare Wesley? Yes. Vent his rage over losing his son?
Definitely. But try to kill him? No way. If Angel really was going to
kill Wesley, Wesley would be dead.
---TSD(Why yes, I've given this some thought....)
--
Fish Eye no Miko
news:ltXz9.724$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> :"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote
> :> Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> :> :"FilmCritic3000" <filmcri...@aol.com> wrote:
> :> :
> :> :> ("I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me")
> :> :
> :> :...after he'd been lying to them for weeks, stole his boss's baby,
> :> :and gave it to his arch-enemy. Convenient how he leaves that
> :> :part out.
> :> :I'm sick of Wes' self-pitying--he brought most of his problems on
> :> :himself. Even arguably, the throat slitting--why did he trust
someone
> :> :who worked with/for Holtz?
> :>
> :> Denial is Wesley's middle name right now.
> :
> :Apparently.
> :But thing is, didn't he say that to Gunn? Why didn't Gunn (or any of
the
> :others) call him on it?
> :"Wait... *we* abandoned you*, Mr. Baby-snatcher?"
>
> I'm assuming Charles was too shocked by the knife and Wesley's
> answer to respond.
Oh, yeah! I'd forgotten the circumstances around Wes saying that. But
once Charles recovered...
> But I'm hoping someone, sometime soon calls him on this because
> this "my friends betrayed me" attitude is getting really tired.
Dear God, I hope so. Someone needs to smack sense back into that guy.
> :> Until he owes up to his own betrayal and abandonment of his friends,
> :> :he'll never never be at peace or at ease with himself.
> :
> :He'll, I'd be happy if he'd just stop boffing Lilah. I'd rather see a
> :EPISODE'S worth of Angel singing than even see them together in
> :a situation that doesn't involve him killing her (or vice versa. I'm
not
> :gonna be picky)
>
> I don't know why ME is all into "I hate myself, so I'll screw evil"
> stuff, but I wish they'd stop.
No kidding. I'm surprised Willow hasn't boffed any demons yet...
> I didn't/don't find any of the pairings - Angel/Darla, Buffy/Spike, and
> Wesley/Lillah - attractive, sexy or erotic, but rather desperate, sad
> and very icky.
Couldn't've said it better myself.
> :> ---TSD(Wesley is one messed up man....)
> :
> :What do you expect? A *happy* person in a Joss Whedon series?
>
> Not necessarily, but I do want *hopeful* people; people who
> still believe in fighting the good fight and showing some focus
> on helping/saving people other than themselves. This hasn't been
> happening as much on Angel as I would like.
Yeah. Frankly, if they go for the Angel/Cordy/Connor love triangle they
seem to be setting up, I may end up dropping the show...
> :Catherine Johnson. Did that sound bitter?
>
> ---TSD(Just a tad. ;) )
Good. That's what I was going for. ^_^
I'm hanging on hoping things will get better, but my patience isn't
eternal. And it's on at the same time as _L&O: Criminal Intent_, which I'd
be more than will to take up watching again...
Catherine Johnson.
Fish Eye no Miko
news:3DD0474F...@bu.edu...
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> >
> > Why didn't Angel have his accent? Accents are mental, not
> > physical. Since Angel's mind was of his 17-year old, IRISH
> > self, he should've had the accent
>
> 'Cause Boreanaz can't do an Irish accent to save his life and ME is
> getting tired of people complaining? :-)
I wonder if that might actually be why... ^_^
> > Cordy knew about demons and all that by the time she was 17...
>
> They were 16. Cordy says something about a "sophomore hazing prank",
> and Buffy didn't move to Sunnydale till halfway through sophomore year.
Ahhhhh... Danke!
> Even then, Cordy didn't know quite what was going on till the end of the
> school year.
True, true.
> > > ("I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me")
> >
> > ...after he'd been lying to them for weeks, stole his boss's baby, and
> > gave it to his arch-enemy. Convenient how he leaves that part out.
>
> Because it was prophecied that Angel would kill his son.
And he couldn't've talked to the others about this?
> Okay, what Wes did was kind of dumb. But they all *knew* why
> he did it,
Because he's an idiot? Because he was arrogant and stupid enough to think
he was the only one who could deal with the information?
> and that he only had their best interests at heart, and they still shut
> him out and abandoned him.
HE TURNED CONNOR OVER TO ANGEL'S ARCH ENEMY. He betrayed them ALL by not
telling them Holtz and company were going to attack the hotel.
HE abandoned them WAAAY before they abandoned him.
> Christ's sake, Angel even tried in earnest to kill him.
And, frankly, I don't blame him one bit. How would you feel in his
position? This guy who you know and thought you trusted turns your child
over to a guy who's sworn to fuck you life up as much as possible.
> Granted, I skipped most of last season's eps,
Maybe you should go watch them before making these judgments. I saw them
all, and found Wes' actions stupid *at best*, and arrogant and, to use your
own word, unforgivable.
> so I'm not the most objective judge. But I tend to side with Wesley on
this
> one. He was an idiot, but the MoG were unforgiveable.
Because they didn't just welcome back the guy who betrayed ALL of them? Who
aided their mortal enemy? Who withheld important information from them,
acted on his own on that information, and then found out afterwards that it
was WRONG? Gee, maybe if the others had looked at it, they could have
realized that before Connor ended up in a Hell dimension with his foster
dad.
Panthea
>
> > this "my friends betrayed me" attitude is getting really tired.
>
> Dear God, I hope so. Someone needs to smack sense back into that guy.
To be fair? Gunn did ASK what happened to him. Wesley simply told him,
and in a rather matter-of-fact way at that.
It's been pointed out to me that Gunn seems to resent how well Wesley
carried on with his life after the split, whereas Gunn and Fred could
barely hold the agency together, and you know, I'm starting to see it.
Everything Wes did was a misguided attempt to save the innocent Connor.
It turned out badly, sure. But he was trying. To do. Good. And he got
his throat slashed for his trouble. (Side note: I didn't even know you
could *survive* that.) Honestly, seriously? If that happened to someone
who was supposed to be one of my BEST FRIENDS, I wouldn't give a damn
what he'd done, so long as none of it was out of malicious intent. I'd
just be relieved he was still ALIVE.
Wes isn't looking for forgiveness. He's stayed away from the MoG except
on two occasions: to deposit Angel, and to- he thought- save Cordy's
life. All the other times, *they've* gone to *him*. And he's helped. If
you think he's obligated to make it up to them in some way, consider
that he's atoning by, oh, say, saving their asses every time they ask?
And in return Gunn, in particular, acts like the wronged party. Gunn,
who Wes once took a bullet for.
If anyone has the right to hold a grudge, it's Angel (or Connor, but
that's a whole other issue). Angel's over it. Gunn still has the
attitude. At this point it just feels like sour grapes.
Oh, and if anyone's going to elaborate on the knife issue- Gunn is
bigger than Wes. Gunn could probably kill Wes with his bare hands. If
Wes were to have pulled the knife, he would have been justified- but he
didn't. It popped out when Gunn grabbed his wrist, as it subsequently
did several times during the course of the episode, by accident.
Rant over.
Pan... God. Who knew I'd ever be defending *Wesley*, of all people? Joss
works in mysterious ways.
Panthea
> HE TURNED CONNOR OVER TO ANGEL'S ARCH ENEMY. He betrayed them ALL by not
> telling them Holtz and company were going to attack the hotel.
> HE abandoned them WAAAY before they abandoned him.
Having no desire to experience the schmoopiness that was last season,
this is all I'll say on the subject:
From what I've heard, Holtz told Wes that he was going to attack the
hotel, and that if Connor was there, Connor would die too. Why Wes
believed him, I don't know- I'd have to go back and re-read the recaps.
But in this, again, Wesley was trying to save Connor's life.
Yes. He's arrogant. He's got a superiority complex. He's a bit of a
ponce. But for Christ's sake, who *didn't* know this about Wesley?
Everything he did, was done to save Connor's life. Personally, if I were
Angel and that were the bottom line, everything else I'd be willing to
overlook. But then I'm just uber-forgiving, so, YMMV.
...And if nothing else, the whole fiasco's done wonders for Wes's
scruffiness factor. Rrrowr. <g>
Pan
(And incidentally, Lilah is HOT. Didja see her in "Supersymmetry"? I
want one! Don't fall for Fred, Wesley! Lilah's so much cooler! And
humorously, attractively evil! Ahem. Anyway.)
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
>
> > HE TURNED CONNOR OVER TO ANGEL'S ARCH ENEMY.
> > He betrayed them ALL by not telling them Holtz and company were
> > going to attack the hotel. HE abandoned them WAAAY before they
> > abandoned him.
>
> Having no desire to experience the schmoopiness that was last season,
> this is all I'll say on the subject:
> From what I've heard, Holtz told Wes that he was going to attack the
> hotel, and that if Connor was there, Connor would die too. Why Wes
> believed him, I don't know-
Well, he did. And Wes didn't consider warning anyone about this. He could
have called them, if he didn't want to go back and risk them taking Connor
back. But he didn't.
> I'd have to go back and re-read the recaps.
> But in this, again, Wesley was trying to save Connor's life.
And not giving a damn about his "friends" in the process, I guess.
> Yes. He's arrogant. He's got a superiority complex. He's a bit of a
> ponce. But for Christ's sake, who *didn't* know this about Wesley?
They did seem to be making him less so.
> Everything he did, was done to save Connor's life.
He didn't warn the gang that Holtz was attacking the hotel. Which, btw,
had the woman he loved in it. How the hell do you tie that into saving
Connor's life? Again: You pick up your cell phone, say, "Holtz is gonna
attack. Look out." and hang up. How hard would that be? But he DIDN'T
> Personally, if I were Angel and that were the bottom line, everything
> else I'd be willing to overlook.
Including his failure to warn you about an attack?
Yes, I'm going to keep mentioning this, since you seemed to overlook it
last time, and has nothing to do with your overall "saving Connor" theme.
He could have done both.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> > "Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote
> >
> > But I'm hoping someone, sometime soon calls him on this because
> > > this "my friends betrayed me" attitude is getting really tired.
> >
> > Dear God, I hope so. Someone needs to smack sense back into that guy.
>
> To be fair? Gunn did ASK what happened to him. Wesley simply told him,
> and in a rather matter-of-fact way at that.
Except that that's not really how it happened. He left out a few important
details... the whole betraying thing for example...
> It's been pointed out to me that Gunn seems to resent how well
> Wesley carried on with his life after the split,
Yeah, he's doing so well, schtooping his arch enemy...
> whereas Gunn and Fred could barely hold the agency together, and
> you know, I'm starting to see it.
> Everything Wes did was a misguided attempt to save the innocent
> Connor.
Including leave the hotel to be attacked without any warning?
> It turned out badly, sure. But he was trying. To do. Good.
And betraying. His. Friends.
> And he got his throat slashed for his trouble.
Again... why did he trust these people?
> (Side note: I didn't even know you could *survive* that.)
Shallow cut. And I've heard people surviving worse.
> Honestly, seriously? If that happened to someone who was supposed
> to be one of my BEST FRIENDS, I wouldn't give a damn what he'd
> done, so long as none of it was out of malicious intent.
Yeah. He un-maliciously didn't tell them about the attack on the hotel.
<as I said in my other post: It's called a cell phone, Wes...>
> I'd just be relieved he was still ALIVE.
> Wes isn't looking for forgiveness. He's stayed away from the MoG
> except on two occasions: to deposit Angel, and to- he thought- save
> Cordy's life. All the other times, *they've* gone to *him*. And he's
> helped. If you think he's obligated to make it up to them in some way,
> consider that he's atoning by, oh, say, saving their asses every time
> they ask?
Well, if he could actually realize what he'd done wrong, instead of acting
like he's the betrayed party, that might help, too.
> And in return Gunn, in particular, acts like the wronged party.
Yeah, well...
> Gunn, who Wes once took a bullet for.
And I'm sure Gunn's NEVER risked his life for Wes.
> If anyone has the right to hold a grudge, it's Angel
Anyone in the hotel has a right to hold a grudge.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"When Catherine thinks you're too gay, you're too gay."
-Rob Fontenot, aka The Midnight Rambler, RATMM.
Panthea
> Including his failure to warn you about an attack?
> Yes, I'm going to keep mentioning this, since you seemed to overlook it
> last time, and has nothing to do with your overall "saving Connor" theme.
> He could have done both.
...Lazy writing, necessary to advance the plot? *shrug*
Meh. We're never gonna agree on this. I've spoken up in defense of
Wesley (and again- who knew?).
Bottom line for me is: he was an idiot. But he's not seeking
forgiveness, he's moving on with his life. And if he has to atone for
his actions ("We all have something to atone for"- oh, how I miss
Doyle), he's acquitted himself rather nicely in saving everyone's asses
whenever they ask. The MoG are the ones who keep coming back to *him*
and asking what happened to *him*. He didn't warn then about the attack?
Feh. He wasn't thinking clearly. I'd forgive him, considering he very
nearly died. (Again. But, who's counting?) If they were ever real
friends, they'd at least be willing to listen to his side of the story.
But no; they immediately cut him off. The way I see it, his friends
*did* abandon him.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. <g>
Pan
Lots42
>Denial is Wesley's middle name right now. Until he owes up to his own
>betrayal and abandonment of his friends, he'll never never be at peace
>or at ease with himself.
>
I disagree. Angel and Co. fucked over Wesley just as much as Wesley fucked over
them.
Lots42
> don't know why ME is all into "I hate myself, so I'll screw evil"
>stuff, but I wish they'd stop.
Wesley isn't boffing Lilah because he hates himself. Wesley is boffing Lilah so
he can have a foot in the door to learn about anything evil Wolfram and Hart is
doing. And it worked.
>Not necessarily, but I do want *hopeful* people; people who
>still believe in fighting the good fight and showing some focus
>on helping/saving people other than themselves. This hasn't been
>happening as much on Angel as I would like.
Well, they've had to spend some time running about and rescuing all their
friends from various types of evil.
But I agree. I want Cordy get odd flashes again and babble out some random
details and Angel running off to stab something horrible.
Lots42
>Everything Wes did was a misguided attempt to save the innocent Connor.
>It turned out badly, sure. But he was trying. To do. Good.
Thank you. This is exactly what other members of this august group don't seem
to understand.
Wesley truly and honestly thought that Angel was a danger to the kid. (And he
was!) Just some unfortunate circumstances caused everything to go to hell.
>And he got
>his throat slashed for his trouble. (Side note: I didn't even know you
>could *survive* that.)
Well, for one he barely did and two, his attacker was a big dork and didn't
really get to the jugular.
>If that happened to someone
>who was supposed to be one of my BEST FRIENDS, I wouldn't give a damn
>what he'd done, so long as none of it was out of malicious intent. I'd
>just be relieved he was still ALIVE.
Yeah. Everyone seems to have forgotten that Angel attacked Wesley when he was
laid up in a hospital bed. I really hope they go somewhere with this.
Hell, Buffy, Xander and Dawn can forgive Willow for almost killing off everyone
in existence. Why can't Angel forgive Wesley for trying to save his son? Sure,
it involved whacking Lorne on the head but who hasn't wanted to do that once in
a while?
>Wes isn't looking for forgiveness. He's stayed away from the MoG except
>on two occasions: to deposit Angel, and to- he thought- save Cordy's
>life. All the other times, *they've* gone to *him*. And he's helped. If
>you think he's obligated to make it up to them in some way, consider
>that he's atoning by, oh, say, saving their asses every time they ask?
Everyone involved in the show is being complete dorkasses concerning the Wesley
situation. Including Wesley himself.
>And in return Gunn, in particular, acts like the wronged party. Gunn,
>who Wes once took a bullet for.
Gunn realizes Wesley has feeling for his girl. As a wise person once said,
'Love makes you do the wacky'. I've personally done some pretty goddamned
stupid things in the name of love.
>If anyone has the right to hold a grudge, it's Angel (or Connor, but
>that's a whole other issue).
"Wait a second. If it wasn't for that English freak you guys still hang around
with, I wouldn't have gone to that hell dimension for most of my life? Um..."
>Oh, and if anyone's going to elaborate on the knife issue- Gunn is
>bigger than Wes. Gunn could probably kill Wes with his bare hands.
I disagree. Both Gunn and Wes are experienced fighters. Any fight between them
would probably result in a draw.
>Pan... God. Who knew I'd ever be defending *Wesley*, of all people? Joss
>works in mysterious ways.
Oh pooh. Wes is cool.
P.S. Whatever happened to his glasses? Did he get LASIK?
James A. Wolf
>> ---TSD
>
>> don't know why ME is all into "I hate myself, so I'll screw evil"
>>stuff, but I wish they'd stop.
>
>Wesley isn't boffing Lilah because he hates himself. Wesley is boffing Lilah so
>he can have a foot in the door...
THERE'S one heck of a euphamism!
--
<*> James A. Wolf - jaw...@attbi.com - http://home.attbi.com/~jawolf <*>
"The jawbone of an ass | "How does history | "To condemn equally might which
is just as dangerous | repeat itself when | backs right and might which
a weapon today as | it was farce the | overthrows right is to render
in Samson's time." | first time?" | positive service to wrong-doers."
Richard M. Nixon | Glenn Reynolds | Theodore Roosevelt
Panthea
> Hell, Buffy, Xander and Dawn can forgive Willow for almost killing off everyone
> in existence. Why can't Angel forgive Wesley for trying to save his son?
And, hey, hasn't *Angel* had to run the gauntlet of forgiveness, oh, not
too long ago?
To his credit, he's forgiven Wes, probably due in no small part to Wes's
little fishing expedition. Lorne called Wes a pastry (in a good way, I
assume), and Fred seems to be over her issues for the most part, and
Cordelia? Um. No idea. Has she even registered Wes on her radar?
So, really, Gunn's the last holdout.
> Gunn realizes Wesley has feeling for his girl. As a wise person once said,
> 'Love makes you do the wacky'. I've personally done some pretty goddamned
> stupid things in the name of love.
Well, yeah, granted. I see where he's coming from; I just think it kicks
his ass way off the moral high ground. Suddenly it's not because he was
betrayed, it's because he's defending his claim.
But then, Fred and Gunn... is a whole other story lately.
> >If anyone has the right to hold a grudge, it's Angel (or Connor, but
> >that's a whole other issue).
>
> "Wait a second. If it wasn't for that English freak you guys still hang around
> with, I wouldn't have gone to that hell dimension for most of my life? Um..."
Hee! ::flashing back to 5x5:: "It's not Wesley's fault that SOME English
guy... oh."
Connor's a whole mess of issues. I love Connor. Connor needs to get
laid, now. I volunteer.
Oops. Did I say that part out loud?
> I disagree. Both Gunn and Wes are experienced fighters. Any fight between them
> would probably result in a draw.
Meh. I can't imagine Wes has the brute force to, say, snap someone's
neck. Granted, Wesley knows KAR-a-tay, but, as we saw on *Buffy* early
on, most of his training was intellectual, not physical. Any practical
fighting skills he's developed have come since he joined up with Angel,
and he's probably a pretty wily fighter, but Gunn's been streetfighting
his whole life. I mean, I know where I'd place my bets.
And anyway, as Wes said, "We don't all have muscle to fall back on."
> >Pan... God. Who knew I'd ever be defending *Wesley*, of all people? Joss
> >works in mysterious ways.
>
> Oh pooh. Wes is cool.
Yeah, but I used to despise him with the fire of a thousand sons. How
exactly did his scruffy badass self worm his way into my affections?
...oh, right. He turned scruffy and badass. <g>
> P.S. Whatever happened to his glasses? Did he get LASIK?
Two-for-one deal with the stitches in the neck...?
Pan
Panthea
> Wesley isn't boffing Lilah because he hates himself. Wesley is boffing Lilah so
> he can have a foot in the door to learn about anything evil Wolfram and Hart is
> doing. And it worked.
And also, apparently, he kinda likes her. I mean, LOOK at her. Who
wouldn't?
Well. Apparently some people. But her screencaps from "Supersymmetry"
are going up on my wall. <g>
Pan
Lots42
>Connor's a whole mess of issues. I love Connor. Connor needs to get
>laid, now. I volunteer.
Connor needs to be staked. I know he's not a vampire but a big hunk of wood
plunged through his chest will make me very, very happy.
--
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to
stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public. (Theodore Roosevelt)
Panthea
>
> >From: Panthea tan...@bu.edu
>
> >Connor's a whole mess of issues. I love Connor. Connor needs to get
> >laid, now. I volunteer.
>
> Connor needs to be staked. I know he's not a vampire but a big hunk of wood
> plunged through his chest will make me very, very happy.
Ah, well. More for me. <g>
Pan
Carl Burke
...
> Pan... God. Who knew I'd ever be defending *Wesley*, of all people? Joss
> works in mysterious ways.
Yep, but I'm with you on this. All the Wesley bashing gets kinda old.
--
Barcode
Jeffrey Johnson
Well, Wesley bashing in the Buffy universe, right?
JSJ1TG, 'cause Wesley bashing in the Star Trek Next Gen universe should
never, ever end.
------------------------------------------------------
James Anatidae, grammarian above all, says: "I always
say that if you have to slander the folks that gave
you the right to do it, at least proofread your work."
------------------------------------------------------
Carl Burke
>
> Embark, dear reader, on a tour of the wisdom of Carl Burke:
> >Panthea wrote:
> >...
> >> Pan... God. Who knew I'd ever be defending *Wesley*, of all people?
> >> Joss works in mysterious ways.
> >
> >Yep, but I'm with you on this. All the Wesley bashing gets kinda old.
>
> Well, Wesley bashing in the Buffy universe, right?
Yes. Or the Angel-verse, I guess, if there's a distinction.
> JSJ1TG, 'cause Wesley bashing in the Star Trek Next Gen universe should
> never, ever end.
In some part of the space-time continuum, it never will.
--
Barcode
Andrew
:Embark, dear reader, on a tour of the wisdom of Carl Burke:
:>Panthea wrote:
:>...
:>> Pan... God. Who knew I'd ever be defending *Wesley*, of all people?
:>> Joss works in mysterious ways.
:>
:>Yep, but I'm with you on this. All the Wesley bashing gets kinda old.
:
:Well, Wesley bashing in the Buffy universe, right?
:
:JSJ1TG, 'cause Wesley bashing in the Star Trek Next Gen universe should
:never, ever end.
It was doomed from the very beginning. Almost wished Bev Crusher never had
gotten married in the first place.
---Andrew Kunz. "Would have made the whole Beverly-Jean Luc romance a whole
lot easier."
Lots42
Jason Tamez
>Wesley Crusher vs. Wesley Wyndham-Pryce? Man-a-mano? Who would win?
Besides Wolfram and Hart, who would care?
-- Jason
(replace the nonsense with druid816 to email me)
Lots42
>
>>Wesley Crusher vs. Wesley Wyndham-Pryce? Man-a-mano? Who would win?
>
>Besides Wolfram and Hart, who would care?
>
>-- Jason
Those who want to see Wesley run through with many sharp, pointy things.
There are a lot of those people around
Fish Eye no Miko
news:20021119015220...@mb-fd.aol.com...
> > lot...@aol.comaol.com (Lots42) wrote:
> >
> >>Wesley Crusher vs. Wesley Wyndham-Pryce? Man-a-mano? Who
> >>would win?
> >
> >Besides Wolfram and Hart, who would care?
> >-- Jason
>
> Those who want to see Wesley run through with many sharp, pointy
> things.
Which one?
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"Our lives are different from other peoples'."
-Oz, _Buffy, the Vampire Slayer_
Lots42
>> things.
>
>Which one?
>
>Catherine Johnson.
>--
It boggles the mind to think there is anyone who wants to see Wesley Wyndham
Pryce run through with sharp objects. (Well, besides Angel).