Don't buy Martin!
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
include Martin in your consideration. If you're considering
which console to buy, especially do NOT consider getting
a Maxxyz! Everyone I've encountered who has been around
one has had bad experiences with it. Worst of all there is no
support from the manufacturer. If you call them with a problem,
they tell you they have no one who can help you. They refer
you to a lame forum, and that's the "best" you can get out of
them. It is all so pathetic that it's hard to believe, but it's true.
Stay far away from Martin if you don't like things that suck.
Stuart Wheaton
Well, based on your clear description of the actual troubles you have
had, and your experience and reputation (since we all recognize your
name and venue) We'll be sure to heed your wise advice.
Almost makes me want to go buy a Martin light...
Roger T.
Next show that comes through the local arena and while I'm rigging the 30
odd Martin movers I'll be sure to pass on your advice.
--
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway at:-
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
Latitude: 48° 25' North
Longitude: 123° 21' West
Tim Perry
Martin makes some pretty respectable fog machines and a wide array of other
useful products.
All moving light fixtures can and do wear out.
E. Lee Dickinson
This sort of 'review' is almost always caused by someone who lacks a basic
knowledge of light consoles and control, is unable to read or comprehend the
manual, and calls up the manufacturer expecting them to teach them from
scratch.
"I have a maxxyz. How do I program it to make the lights do what I want?"
Not gonna get an answer from tech support. That's a user application
question, not a technical support question.
<nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote in message
news:0kk5245kp0upnsjdp...@4ax.com...
john Chenault
it for us to post our experiences with various manufacturers equipment
both good and bad. I'm not speaking of general rants, but specific
instances of either problems or outstanding service / products.
For example, almost two years ago I purchased two moving lights
( company to remain nameless). They showed up, neither in good
working order.
My local supply house was able to fix one of them.
The company air-freighted a second pair. One of them worked.
A year later we had problems with the units 'jittering'. Turned out
to be a power supply issue on our side ( feeder cable too wimpy) but
the tech reps did not bring this up as a potential problem, and took
us down some blind alleys that were clearly bogus.
Now I am having problems with the shutters not working properly. They
stick and do not home. Again the company ( via my supplier ) says
they have seen the issue and are working on a fix - but don't have an
answer yet.
The manufacturer has been generally responsive, although not
altogether effective. My local supplier has provided me amazingly
good service. - What is the net wisdom about sharing these kinds of
experiences on the user groups.
John
Duncan Wood
Seems fair to do so to me.
Barbara Bailey
news:op.uawkb5wnpmo3dt@lucy:
You're doing several things differently from "Don't buy Martin!" guy,
though.
You're posting under a name that can be identified, and with an e-mail
address that can be used to get in touch with you privately for more
information. He did neither.
You explained what the problem that you had with the gear was. He did
not.
You explained what you did to try to solve the problem. He did not.
You explained what the company did to try to solve the problem. He did
not.
He has pitched a tantrum; you have shared your experience in a way that
could be helpful to others who are looking for moving lights.
Comparing this post of yours, John, with "Don't buy Martin!"'s is
comparing apples to pinecones.
David McCall
"Barbara Bailey" <rabr...@yayhu.comm> wrote in message
news:Xns9A999BB349BEFr...@194.177.96.78...
It is our job as readers to figure out what is just a rant and
what is perhaps useful information.
David
Christopher Jahn
news:Uq2Vj.27$jk1.1@trndny05:
>> Comparing this post of yours, John, with "Don't buy
>> Martin!"'s is comparing apples to pinecones.
>>
> Some people just feel a need to rant to somebody.
> It is our job as readers to figure out what is just a rant
> and what is perhaps useful information.
It as our jobs as regular posters to help provide enough relevant
data to make it possible to decide which information is useful.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
Do I *amuse* you? Am I a *clown* to you?
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>The thread does bring up an interesting point, however. How valid is
>it for us to post our experiences with various manufacturers equipment
>both good and bad. I'm not speaking of general rants, but specific
>instances of either problems
When they already can't/won't help you, nor can they suggest
anywhere or anything that can, what less can they do...what do
you have to lose by ranting? Well, what can they do *to* someone
for warning that they're lame because they provide no help? How
about for warning that all other feedback you've heard has been
negative too?
>or outstanding service / products.
LOL....that's........never mind : )
Duncan Wood
WEll if you phrased it coherently in English then you might manage to
prevent some of us buying it.
Christopher Jahn
news:iomc24duvlk4mbcbm...@4ax.com:
>
> When they already can't/won't help you, nor can they suggest
> anywhere or anything that can, what less can they do...what do
> you have to lose by ranting? Well, what can they do *to*
> someone for warning that they're lame because they provide no
> help? How about for warning that all other feedback you've
> heard has been negative too?
But you haven't presented a case. YOu've said "They suck,
because I said so!" If you are going to slam someone else's
reputation, you'd damn well better be willing to put your own on
the line.
We don't know who the hell you are, what equipment is in
question, what the problem was, or even if you are qualified to
identify that the equipment wasn't working properly. Maybe you
bought the wrong equipment for what you're trying to do. Maybe
they did give you the correct solution and you're too stupid to
apply it.
As far as I'm concerned, you're just some lying asshole. If you
had a viable complaint and a valid case against the company,
you'd be posting under your actual name, and letting the world
know that your company won't do business with them. That's what
stings, not some anonymous jerk's incoherent raving.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
Welcome to the Federal Bureau for Reducing Bureaucracy!
Christopher Jahn
news:39b98343-9340-4e86...@y18g2000pre.googlegroup
s.com:
> The thread does bring up an interesting point, however. How
> valid is it for us to post our experiences with various
> manufacturers equipment both good and bad. I'm not speaking
> of general rants, but specific instances of either problems or
> outstanding service / products.
It's completely valid to post your experiences, both good and bad
- as long as you provide all the relevant facts.
Sometimes the support teams do read these groups; if you identify
the company and the problem, the service team can defend their
actions - or at least explain them - if they so choose.
Another reason to do so: let's say the company has 12 service
reps, and 5 customers having the same problem, but each is
handled by a seperate rep. None of the parties know that there
are others having the same problem. Posting in a group like this
can bring that to light. "Hey! I have the same problem!"
Now you can call and say "XYZ company is having the same
problem" or "XYZ said your company told them <fitb>." Now the
company knows that it's a larger problem, or will be forced to
deal with the fact that their customers are aware that it is a
larger problem.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
A man with one watch knows what time it is--with two watches he
is never sure.
Stuart Wheaton
> The thread does bring up an interesting point, however. How valid is
> it for us to post our experiences with various manufacturers equipment
> both good and bad. I'm not speaking of general rants, but specific
> instances of either problems or outstanding service / products.
Treat it like you would a review of a show...
If you say "___Sucks, don't go!" How many people are going to listen?
If you say "the costumes were poorly fitted, the set for act two fell
over part way through, two of the leads went up on their lines in a
noticeable and catastrophic way and the sound system had more from the
local airport than from the actors" And signed your name, people might
not choose to waste the hours.
The way the initial post was phrased, I think somebody has a 14 year old
kid and they are trying to help daddy sell more American DJ gear by
trashing a competitor.
Nothing at all wrong with a clear, detailed, honest evaluation of gear,
especially if it comes from somebody who knows what he is talking about.
I'm not a lighting guy, and I don't program Martin gear, but I have seen
Martin send out factory people to help restore a batch of movers that
got doused by a faulty sprinkler system. And even though they had been
through a pretty severe drenching, the lights worked very reliably
afterwards.
Stuart
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO wrote in
>news:iomc24duvlk4mbcbm...@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> When they already can't/won't help you, nor can they suggest
>> anywhere or anything that can, what less can they do...what do
>> you have to lose by ranting? Well, what can they do *to*
>> someone for warning that they're lame because they provide no
>> help? How about for warning that all other feedback you've
>> heard has been negative too?
>
>But you haven't presented a case. YOu've said "They suck,
>because I said so!" If you are going to slam someone else's
>reputation, you'd damn well better be willing to put your own on
>the line.
>
>We don't know who the hell you are, what equipment is in
>question, what the problem was, or even if you are qualified to
>identify that the equipment wasn't working properly. Maybe you
>bought the wrong equipment for what you're trying to do. Maybe
>they did give you the correct solution
They said specifically they could not, nor could they suggest
a good place to find out.
>and you're too stupid to apply it.
>
>As far as I'm concerned, you're just some lying asshole.
The fact that you immediately jump to the conclusion someone
is lying for no reason, causes that person to take it for granted
you must be in the habit of doing so yourself.
>If you
>had a viable complaint and a valid case against the company,
>you'd be posting under your actual name,
Why?
>and letting the world
>know that your company won't do business with them.
By now it should really be quite clear to anyone that we do.
Duncan Wood
> On Sun, 11 May 2008 16:11:39 -0500, Christopher Jahn
> <cj...@actorsplayhouse.org> wrote:
>
>> nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO wrote in
>> news:iomc24duvlk4mbcbm...@4ax.com:
>>
>>>
>>> When they already can't/won't help you, nor can they suggest
>>> anywhere or anything that can, what less can they do...what do
>>> you have to lose by ranting? Well, what can they do *to*
>>> someone for warning that they're lame because they provide no
>>> help? How about for warning that all other feedback you've
>>> heard has been negative too?
>>
>> But you haven't presented a case. YOu've said "They suck,
>> because I said so!" If you are going to slam someone else's
>> reputation, you'd damn well better be willing to put your own on
>> the line.
>>
>> We don't know who the hell you are, what equipment is in
>> question, what the problem was, or even if you are qualified to
>> identify that the equipment wasn't working properly. Maybe you
>> bought the wrong equipment for what you're trying to do. Maybe
>> they did give you the correct solution
>
> They said specifically they could not, nor could they suggest
> a good place to find out.
>
OK, what was the problem?
Christopher Jahn
news:5d7f24t9bss6otdlh...@4ax.com:
>>
>>We don't know who the hell you are, what equipment is in
>>question, what the problem was, or even if you are qualified
>>to identify that the equipment wasn't working properly. Maybe
>>you bought the wrong equipment for what you're trying to do.
>>Maybe they did give you the correct solution
>
> They said specifically they could not, nor could they suggest
> a good place to find out.
Could not do what? Could not suggest a solution to what?
Until you tell us exactly which equipment you have, and exactly
what your problem is, you're not making a complaint, you're
simply committing libel.
>
>>and you're too stupid to apply it.
>>
>>As far as I'm concerned, you're just some lying asshole.
>
> The fact that you immediately jump to the conclusion someone
> is lying for no reason, causes that person to take it for
> granted you must be in the habit of doing so yourself.
I think you're lying because you haven't give us a single fact.
All you've done is say terrible things about a company; but you
haven't offered a single shred of proof to back up your claims.
>
>>If you
>>had a viable complaint and a valid case against the company,
>>you'd be posting under your actual name,
>
> Why?
>
Because that's what honest people who have a complaint against a
company do.
If you really had a problem with Martin, you'd want me to be able
to use your case against doing business with them. You'd want me
to be able to tell my Martin rep "Hey, Joe Blow over at
Legitimate Stage told me that he bought one of these doohickeys,
and they do these three things that are on their spec sheets.
I'm not doing business with someone who screws over Joe Blow."
This way, not only does Martin lose business, but now they have a
very good reason to solve your problem.
>>and letting the world
>>know that your company won't do business with them.
>
> By now it should really be quite clear to anyone that we do.
The only thing clear from what you've written is that you don't
know anything.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
After a number of decimal places, nobody gives a damn.
Stuart Wheaton
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 07:38:27 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:
>
>>>> If you
>>>> had a viable complaint and a valid case against the company, you'd be
>>>> posting under your actual name,
>>> Why?
>>>
>>>
>> Because that's what honest people who have a complaint against a company
>> do.
>
> use real names instead of pen names under any circumstance.
>
>
On RATS it is strongly advised if you wish to be taken seriously. In
this case I think somebody's daddy sells American DJ gear and his 14
year old kid thinks defaming a competitor is how to help daddy sell more.
Stuart
Christopher Jahn
in news:pan.2008.05...@nospam.invalid:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 07:38:27 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:
>
>>>>If you
>>>>had a viable complaint and a valid case against the company,
>>>>you'd be posting under your actual name,
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>>
>> Because that's what honest people who have a complaint
>> against a company do.
>
> Actually, this is Usenet.
Don't teach granpa to suck eggs.
> There is (and has never been) no
> requirement to use real names instead of pen names under any
> circumstance.
Your point is nothing more than a strawman argument; this isn't a
discussion about internet anonymity. If you want to know my
position on that subject, google my name and "Stuck on the
Palmetto." You'll find it in the Miami Herald, among other
places. Heck, you can find it on my blog, Man Or Maniac?
The little whining jerk isn't using a pen name to protect his
identity. He's not a whistle blower afraid of retribution. He's
not making some political stand that could have professional
repercussions. He's a lying little jackass who has a grudge.
If you want to be taken seriously, you don't hide everything
relevant to your argument. This kid has hidden everything.
When you are tasking a company to honor its committment to its
product by dealing with you, you have to let them know who they
are making reparations to.
Now stop annoying the grownups and go learn something worthile
about stagecraft.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
Time Warner: bringing you the finest in cradle-to-grave thought
management.
Christopher Jahn
news:cb69a$482a059b$d0660e36$11...@FUSE.NET:
>>> Because that's what honest people who have a complaint
>>> against a company do.
>>
>> Actually, this is Usenet. There is (and has never been) no
>> requirement to use real names instead of pen names under any
>> circumstance.
>>
>>
>
> On RATS it is strongly advised if you wish to be taken
> seriously.
I will point out that we do have some members who post using a
nomme de plume; but at least they have an identity.
But in this group, we're not discussing anything you'd want to
hide your involvement in.
> In this case I think somebody's daddy sells
> American DJ gear and his 14 year old kid thinks defaming a
> competitor is how to help daddy sell more.
Bingo, Stuart!
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
Only the lavender prairie dogs know the key to unlock the secret
of the tumble-weeds.
Christopher Jahn
in news:pan.2008.05...@nospam.invalid:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 22:36:07 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:
>
>> The little whining jerk isn't using a pen name to protect his
>> identity. He's not a whistle blower afraid of retribution.
>> He's not making some political stand that could have
>> professional repercussions. He's a lying little jackass who
>> has a grudge.
>
> That much was obvious, and his unsubstantiated rant should be
> treated with the sort of disregard as any rant like that
> should.
>
>
> Meanwhile, I still consider that the use of a nome de plume on
> Usenet is perfectly valid - just as not posting using your
> real email address is just as valid in order to avoid viruses
> or other malicious stuff that trolls around.
And I don't disagree with you.
>
> BTW, I have been reading this NG for some time now, and have
> found the various points of view and suggestions offered to be
> very interesting.
>
> The post that started this thread was quite clearly bogus.
Which is really the only point I was trying to make.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
We're just two lost souls swimmin' in a fishbowl, year after year
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>On Tue, 13 May 2008 22:36:07 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:
>
>> The little whining jerk isn't using a pen name to protect his identity.
>> He's not a whistle blower afraid of retribution. He's not making some
>> political stand that could have professional repercussions. He's a lying
>> little jackass who has a grudge.
>
>That much was obvious,
Yet you have all jumped to the assumption that it's for no
valid reason.
>and his unsubstantiated rant should be treated
>with the sort of disregard as any rant like that should.
>
>
>Meanwhile, I still consider that the use of a nome de plume on Usenet is
>perfectly valid - just as not posting using your real email address is
>just as valid in order to avoid viruses or other malicious stuff that
>trolls around.
>
>BTW, I have been reading this NG for some time now, and have found the
>various points of view and suggestions offered to be very interesting.
>
>The post that started this thread was quite clearly bogus.
It was intended as a warning. Now that I see the reaction, if I ever
want to warn about a lame company it would probably be best to
say they are fantastic, so people like yourselves will jump to the
conclusion that they must be lame. From the "logic" of this group
and yourself included I should jump to the conclusion that you
disbelieve smoking causes cancer...etc...
Duncan Wood
> On 14 May 2008 23:16:50 +1200, "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)"
> <SC...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 13 May 2008 22:36:07 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:
>>
>>> The little whining jerk isn't using a pen name to protect his identity.
>>> He's not a whistle blower afraid of retribution. He's not making some
>>> political stand that could have professional repercussions. He's a
>>> lying
>>> little jackass who has a grudge.
>>
>> That much was obvious,
>
> Yet you have all jumped to the assumption that it's for no
> valid reason.
>
WEll you haven't yet posted what your issue was?
>> and his unsubstantiated rant should be treated
>> with the sort of disregard as any rant like that should.
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile, I still consider that the use of a nome de plume on Usenet is
>> perfectly valid - just as not posting using your real email address is
>> just as valid in order to avoid viruses or other malicious stuff that
>> trolls around.
>>
>> BTW, I have been reading this NG for some time now, and have found the
>> various points of view and suggestions offered to be very interesting.
>>
>> The post that started this thread was quite clearly bogus.
>
> It was intended as a warning. Now that I see the reaction, if I ever
> want to warn about a lame company it would probably be best to
> say they are fantastic, so people like yourselves will jump to the
> conclusion that they must be lame. From the "logic" of this group
> and yourself included I should jump to the conclusion that you
> disbelieve smoking causes cancer...etc...
Nope, we just have a post from you that says Martin are crap without
telling us what it was you (or according to your 1st post, someone you
knew) had as an issue. Now quite a few of us will have happily pointed out
that Strand won't answer the phone, return your tech support calls & avoid
you at trade shows when asking for ,say, the pinout of their AV interface.
Peter Herman
<nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote in message
news:6e4l241ha97pee82d...@4ax.com...
> On 14 May 2008 23:16:50 +1200, "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)"
> <SC...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> Yet you have all jumped to the assumption that it's for no
> valid reason.
> It was intended as a warning. Now that I see the reaction, if I ever
> want to warn about a lame company it would probably be best to
> say they are fantastic, so people like yourselves will jump to the
> conclusion that they must be lame. From the "logic" of this group
> and yourself included I should jump to the conclusion that you
> disbelieve smoking causes cancer...etc...
I don't think that most of us would object to the use of a pen name IF the
post had contained some information on WHY you were slamming Martin. For
the most part, we don't need a pseudonym when we complain. I told our
Strand Sales Rep right to his face that I liked his product (he was trying
to sell me a 300 series console) but that I would never buy one until their
service in our area got a whole lot better than it was. I am living proof
that Strand didn't put out a contract on me as a result of my lack of tact!
As a group of technically inclined folks, we want to know what exactly is
wrong. Are lamps blowing for no reasons? Are the optics inconsistent from
unit to unit? Are the shutters failing to index? Is the service rep unable
to fix a problem? As they say in the National Inquirer ads, "Inquiring
minds want to know, we want to know!" With information we can compare your
experiences with ours and perhaps even suggest a fix.
Peter
Christopher Jahn
news:6e4l241ha97pee82d...@4ax.com:
>>On Tue, 13 May 2008 22:36:07 -0500, Christopher Jahn wrote:
>>
>>> The little whining jerk isn't using a pen name to protect
>>> his identity. He's not a whistle blower afraid of
>>> retribution. He's not making some political stand that could
>>> have professional repercussions. He's a lying little jackass
>>> who has a grudge.
>>
>>That much was obvious,
>
> Yet you have all jumped to the assumption that it's for no
> valid reason.
That's because you haven't provided any reason whatsoever.
Tell us what the equipment was, what it was or wasn't doing, and
what Martin told you, and then you'll have said something
worthwhile.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
Beyond good and evil lies North Dakota.
Duncan Wood
<SC...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 May 2008 21:32:33 -0600, Peter Herman wrote:
>
>> As a group of technically inclined folks, we want to know what exactly
>> is wrong. Are lamps blowing for no reasons? Are the optics inconsistent
>> from unit to unit? Are the shutters failing to index? Is the service rep
>> unable to fix a problem? As they say in the National Inquirer ads,
>> "Inquiring minds want to know, we want to know!" With information we
>> can compare your experiences with ours and perhaps even suggest a fix.
>
> Personally, I've found Martin gear to be solidly reliable stuff - even in
> environments with high amounts of airborne particles such as that from
> smoke machines which when regularly used seem to result in an awful lot
> of grime building up on lenses!
>
> His rant was totally contrary to my own personal experience of Martin
> gear.
>
>
I've got bitter memories of roboscans.....
However Macs are some of the most reliable lights I've worked with.
EKeil
profiles and a Maxxyz desk and I must say I couldn't have been happier
with the performance of either set of gear, they are the best fixture/
console pairing I've had the joy of working with, so much so that we
bought 4 of them. We have also been incredibly happy with their
customer support and service. As an example, they neglected to pack
two of the esoteric 15A fuses for running the 700's on 110 instead of
208V. He apologized profusely and less than 24 hours later I had an
overnight package with half a dozen of them in my hands, no questions
asked. They have offered to come out and do demos for our university
to help our students shorten their learning curve on their gear.
Martin makes great stuff in every experience I have had with the
gear.
Erich Keil
Designer/Technical Director
Bradley University
Peoria, IL
Christopher Jahn
news:39a58328-fa07-4d28...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroup
s.com:
> they neglected to pack
> two of the esoteric 15A fuses for running the 700's on 110
> instead of 208V. He apologized profusely and less than 24
> hours later I had an overnight package with half a dozen of
> them in my hands, no questions asked.
You see what Erick did? He told us exactly what was wrong, and
exactly what the response was.
He had a satisfactory response, but this is the same way a
complaint should be posted. We know exactly what equipment is in
question, and exactly what the problem is. We know what the
response needs to be, and in this case, it is the same as what
they did.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
In-con-CEIvable!
Mark McNeill
> Meanwhile, I still consider that the use of a nome de plume on Usenet is
> perfectly valid - just as not posting using your real email address is
> just as valid in order to avoid viruses or other malicious stuff that
> trolls around.
Using a false email address violates RFC 1036, for those who are
bothered by such things (unless I'm wrong or out of date, which is
entirely possible).
In any case I don't find it necessary: in the last couple of years I've
been using a real, free email address for my Usenet posts; it receives
very little spam, but allows Usenet users to contact me without even
having to de-munge.
--
Mark, UK
"How future generations will get on without us is indeed, when we come
to think of it, quite a puzzle. But I suppose they will get on somehow,
and may possibly venture to revise our judgments as we have revised
earlier judgments."
Christopher Jahn
in news:pan.2008.05...@nospam.invalid:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 14:53:05 +0100, Mark McNeill wrote:
>
>> Using a false email address violates RFC 1036, for those who
>> are bothered by such things (unless I'm wrong or out of date,
>> which is entirely possible).
>>
>> In any case I don't find it necessary: in the last couple of
>> years I've been using a real, free email address for my
>> Usenet posts; it receives very little spam, but allows Usenet
>> users to contact me without even having to de-munge.
>
> Usenet is actively used by spammers to gather email addresses.
> Why would you use a real email address only for it to start
> being swamped with spam?
1. so people can actually reach me
2. it's an address only used for usenet, so I don't care if it
gets spammed.
3. Better free email providers have effective spam filters, so I
don't get that much spam anyway.
>
> I quickly learned that one back in the '90s.
Ancient history. Most of your lessons are in the fossil record
now.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
%QUOTE
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>I just did 2 major corporate and theatre events with a rig of Mac 700
>profiles and a Maxxyz desk and I must say I couldn't have been happier
>with the performance of either set of gear, they are the best fixture/
>console pairing I've had the joy of working with,
I've certainly never heard anyone else say anything even
close to something like that. The best I've encountered is
a couple of people who said Martin fixtures are ok.
>so much so that we
>bought 4 of them. We have also been incredibly happy with their
>customer support and service.
I have no complaint with their tech support for mechanical
problems. Support for getting familiar with a Maxxyz is
non-existent however. Maybe that's not lame somehow
and I just can't appreciate it. Then again, maybe it's lame.
>As an example, they neglected to pack
>two of the esoteric 15A fuses for running the 700's on 110 instead of
>208V. He apologized profusely and less than 24 hours later I had an
>overnight package with half a dozen of them in my hands, no questions
>asked. They have offered to come out and do demos for our university
>to help our students shorten their learning curve on their gear.
Martin, or the dealer you bought the gear from?
>Martin makes great stuff in every experience I have had with the
>gear.
I had that experience with High End, but not Martin.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>EKeil <ek...@bradley.edu> wrote in
>news:39a58328-fa07-4d28...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroup
>s.com:
>
>> they neglected to pack
>> two of the esoteric 15A fuses for running the 700's on 110
>> instead of 208V. He apologized profusely and less than 24
>> hours later I had an overnight package with half a dozen of
>> them in my hands, no questions asked.
>
>You see what Erick did? He told us exactly what was wrong, and
>exactly what the response was.
>
>He had a satisfactory response, but this is the same way a
>complaint should be posted.
He posted a compliment. I have nothing complimentary
to post. That puts us in completely different situations.
>We know exactly what equipment is in
>question, and exactly what the problem is. We know what the
>response needs to be, and in this case, it is the same as what
>they did.
A completely different type of situation, and if I was in
it I wouldn't have the complaint.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
How should someone know when you'll believe the opposite
of what they warn you about, and when they will believe you?
>we just have a post from you that says Martin are crap without
>telling us what it was you (or according to your 1st post, someone you
>knew) had as an issue.
All other comments about the Maxxyz that I've heard have
been bad, except for one guy this past weekend who said
he likes it. My bitch is about their support for learning to use
the thing, since there is none.
>Now quite a few of us will have happily pointed out
>that Strand won't answer the phone, return your tech support calls & avoid
>you at trade shows when asking for ,say, the pinout of their AV interface.
Why don't they tell you where to get it instead? Do you think
their behavior is respectable or half ass?
Duncan Wood
Well who did you buy your training from?
>> Now quite a few of us will have happily pointed out
>> that Strand won't answer the phone, return your tech support calls &
>> avoid
>> you at trade shows when asking for ,say, the pinout of their AV
>> interface.
>
> Why don't they tell you where to get it instead? Do you think
> their behavior is respectable or half ass?
I think it was inadequate.
Christopher Jahn
news:7m5v24du1o4jntvb9...@4ax.com:
>>Nope,
>
> How should someone know when you'll believe the opposite
> of what they warn you about, and when they will believe you?
>
>>we just have a post from you that says Martin are crap without
>> telling us what it was you (or according to your 1st post,
>>someone you knew) had as an issue.
>
> All other comments about the Maxxyz that I've heard have
> been bad, except for one guy this past weekend who said
> he likes it.
Ahh, NOW you post something relevant; the equipment.
Although you drop the ball when you then claim that "all other
comments" say something, without offering any proof of it. Where
can we look at "all other comments" to judge for ourselves?
> My bitch is about their support for learning to
> use the thing, since there is none.
Which is a little more clear than "they suck." Of course, there
IS training available.
http://www.maxxyz.com/support/
>
>>Now quite a few of us will have happily pointed out
>>that Strand won't answer the phone, return your tech support
>>calls & avoid you at trade shows when asking for ,say, the
>>pinout of their AV interface.
>
> Why don't they tell you where to get it instead? Do you think
> their behavior is respectable or half ass?
Since you still haven't provided a clear narrative of your
problem and your efforts to solve it, the only behavior we can
judge is yours, and it's notably half-assed.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
A relationship is like a shark. It has to keep moving forward or
it dies.
Christopher Jahn
news:ej5v2494qifdetilf...@4ax.com:
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 18:34:39 -0500, Christopher Jahn
> <cj...@actorsplayhouse.org> wrote:
>
>>EKeil <ek...@bradley.edu> wrote in
>>news:39a58328-fa07-4d28...@x35g2000hsb.googlegro
>>up s.com:
>>
>>> they neglected to pack
>>> two of the esoteric 15A fuses for running the 700's on 110
>>> instead of 208V. He apologized profusely and less than 24
>>> hours later I had an overnight package with half a dozen of
>>> them in my hands, no questions asked.
>>
>>You see what Erick did? He told us exactly what was wrong,
>>and exactly what the response was.
>>
>>He had a satisfactory response, but this is the same way a
>>complaint should be posted.
>
> He posted a compliment. I have nothing complimentary
> to post. That puts us in completely different situations.
No, he posted FACTS. There were compliments, too, but he
included facts.
If you're too stupid to see that, then it's apparent that you
probably are getting help, but you're too stupid to understand
it.
>
>>We know exactly what equipment is in
>>question, and exactly what the problem is. We know what the
>>response needs to be, and in this case, it is the same as what
>>they did.
>
> A completely different type of situation.
He had a problem. You had a problem. He called Martin Support,
you called Martin support.
It's an identical situation.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
Anarchy -- it's not the law, it's just a good idea.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>it's apparent that you probably are getting help, but you're
>too stupid to understand
. . .
>It's an identical situation.
You're too stupid to understand.
Torrance Bell
>
> I have no complaint with their tech support for mechanical
> problems. Support for getting familiar with a Maxxyz is
> non-existent however. Maybe that's not lame somehow
> and I just can't appreciate it. Then again, maybe it's lame.
>
Did you happen to read the 266 page manual for the Maxxyz, still not
sure if that's the actual product you've been crying about? It's pretty
descriptive. If you can't become familiar with a system from reading a
manual, then there's no help for you.
You can read manuals and go to school to learn how to operate systems,
but unless you're willing to be creative, then don't get mad when the
manufacturer won't tell you how to program a show you're supposed to
come up with on your own.
Torrance
Christopher Jahn
news:g63034tu8lnmfqn44...@4ax.com:
I'm certainly wasting my time trying to teach an idiot like you
anything. You should go back to Facebook with the other
children, and quit annoying the professionals.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
It was such a lovely day I thought it a pity to get up.
Bob Howes
<nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote in message
news:7m5v24du1o4jntvb9...@4ax.com...
Ah, we may be getting somewhere here. You want support for "LEARNING TO USE
THE THING". So...you don't want support, you want lessons and training.
That's something very different.
Most people find the instruction manual to be entirely adequate. Obviously
you didn't.
However, may I ask: did you ring support with a totally specific question
or was your call along the lines of "how do I make this work?" If it was a
specific query that you were left with after reading the manual and trying
to make it work then they should have responded. If, it was "I can't make
it work" then how is anyone expected to answer?
From the lack of detail in all your posts here, I suspect you call(s) to
Martin were equally short on detail.
Bob
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
Good. Why don't they?
>You want support for "LEARNING TO USE
>THE THING". So...you don't want support, you want lessons and training.
>That's something very different.
Do you think any manufacturers can tell you how to use
their microwave ovens? I wonder if there are any who can
tell you how to use their software.......hmmm......ż?ż?ż?ż?
>Most people find the instruction manual to be entirely adequate. Obviously
>you didn't.
I've figured out a couple of things from it. They didn't even give
us one when we got the console, and it was another terrible
experience trying to get one out of them in the long run. When
we finally did get one--*years!* later--they didn't send an index
or table of contents with it, so I'm making my own as I go along.
>However, may I ask: did you ring support with a totally specific question
I had a couple. One was how to assign a cue list to one of the
faders. There was no one at Martin who could tell me how to
do *that*, nor could they tell me anyone who could other than
to post the question in a forum and see if someone answered
it. How much lamer can it get? Not very much, that's for sure.
I needed to know right then, so I dug through the manual until
I found it. What was the main lesson to be learned? It was that
a person can not count on Martin to help them with anything
like that, and should be very common knowledge anyone who's
considering getting or has a Maxxyz should know and be familiar
with.
>or was your call along the lines of "how do I make this work?" If it was a
>specific query that you were left with after reading the manual and trying
>to make it work then they should have responded. If, it was "I can't make
>it work" then how is anyone expected to answer?
>
>From the lack of detail in all your posts here, I suspect you call(s) to
>Martin were equally short on detail.
They were very clear on detail, and the reply was very clearly
that no one associated with Martin could help me unless some
Martin associate just happened to do so in the forum. So to
break it down:
When no one associated with Martin happens to answer your
question in the forum then Martin has performed in the lamest
way it's possible for an organization to perform, and when
someone does happen to then they have performed in the
second lamest way.
Should that not be common knowledge to everyone who's
considering Martin? If not, why not?
Duncan Wood
> tell you how to use their software.......hmmm......¿?¿?¿?¿?
That's the way most lighting desk forums work, who did your initial
training with the desk?
The manuals on the website, along with the software
http://www.martin.com/service/downloadfile.asp?name=UM_Maxxyz-2.0-color_EN_E.pdf&cat=65
There's a TOC at the front & it's a PDF so you can search it.
David McCall
http://www.martinpro.com/product/product.asp?product=maxxyz
Google is your friend.
David
<nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote in message
news:n42334dkoqgq3opfq...@4ax.com...
> tell you how to use their software.......hmmm......¿?¿?¿?¿?
>
M.C.Gordon Jr
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 06:11:07 GMT, "Bob Howes" <bob.ho...@bee-tee-internet.com> wrote:
> ><noooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote in message
> >news:7m5v24du1o4jntvb9...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 14 May 2008 22:00:18 +0100, "Duncan Wood" <bodged...@dmx512.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>On Wed, 14 May 2008 08:21:45 +0100, <noooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote:
>
> >>>> On 14 May 2008 23:16:50 +1200, "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)"
>
I have not been posting much but I have to ask.
When you buy a car do you expect the manufacturer to teach you how to
drive?
Matt
--
"If the Magic is done right its still Magical even if you know all the
Secrets."
Wholesale prices in a retail world. http://www.delightfuljewelry.com
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
That's not the least bit similar. A similar question would be to wonder
if they could tell you how to operate the vehicle that they manufactured.
Do you think any washing machine manufacturers can tell you how to
operate their washing machines? Do you think any of them send manuals
with their products, as Martin did not do with the Maxxyz? Do you think any
other light controller manufacturers can tell you how to operate their boards?
Do you think any of them give you a manual when you get a board from
them? I know for a fact that at least sometimes when you buy an Avo board
they include a manual, and are happy to do it unlike Martin who refused to
give us a manual for the Maxxyz a number of times before they finally broke
down and sent one. Also, moments ago I called High End to see how they
would respond to the same thing I asked Martin. I asked the operator if there
was anyone there who could answer a question about a Whole Hog and
she said: "Sure, just a moment", unlike at Martin where they say "No" when
asked the same thing regarding a Maxxyz. Shortly a guy came on and I asked
him if he could tell me how to assign a cuelist to a fader on a Whole Hog. He
wanted to know what type I was using, so I explained that I don't have one but
just wanted to know if anyone there could help with such a question. He said
that he could. I asked if he would do so and he said that he'd be happy to, but
it might be difficult to walk me through it without one sitting in front of me.
Martin takes the lamest approach they could take. Why don't you people want
that to be known by anyone considering buying a Maxxyz, do you even know
why? Do any of you know why???
Torrance Bell
>> When you buy a car do you expect the manufacturer to teach you how to
>> drive?
>
> That's not the least bit similar. A similar question would be to wonder
> if they could tell you how to operate the vehicle that they manufactured.
You still haven't told us your specific, exact problem you were having
with a specific, exact product (that I have seen). Yes they will teach
you specific features of the car, but learning how to drive is a whole
'nother matter which is not the responsibility of the dealer.
> Do you think any washing machine manufacturers can tell you how to
> operate their washing machines?
How to use their product, yes. How to wash clothes, no.
> Do you think any of them send manuals
> with their products, as Martin did not do with the Maxxyz?
Yes. It's your own fault for not trying to find a manual for the
system. It took me all of five minutes to download the complete manual
along with several other documents from their website.
> Do you think any
> other light controller manufacturers can tell you how to operate their boards?
Yes, it's all in the manual.
> Do you think any of them give you a manual when you get a board from
> them?
Yes. Did you get the system brand new from a licensed dealer, or did
you buy the system used?
> I know for a fact that at least sometimes when you buy an Avo board
> they include a manual, and are happy to do it unlike Martin who refused to
> give us a manual for the Maxxyz a number of times before they finally broke
> down and sent one.
Did you simply ask them for a manual for a specific product and have an
address for them to send it? Did you scoff at them? Did they try to
tell you how easy it is to use the internet and download it from their
website? If you call someone expecting failure, that's what you're
going to get.
You are a walking self-fulfilling prophecy.
Martin has been around for a long time, has made thousands upon
thousands of units of their various products, and shipped to an even
greater number of customers around the world. If they were such an
awful company, they would have gone out of business a long time ago.
The problems you are experiencing are your own creations.
Torrance
Duncan Wood
Generally you get a manual & their dealer will tell you what the switches
do if you're to dumb to read the manual
> Do you think any washing machine manufacturers can tell you how to
> operate their washing machines? Do you think any of them send manuals
> with their products, as Martin did not do with the Maxxyz?Do you think
> any
> other light controller manufacturers can tell you how to operate their
> boards?
> Do you think any of them give you a manual when you get a board from
> them? I know for a fact that at least sometimes when you buy an Avo board
> they include a manual, and are happy to do it unlike Martin who refused
> to
> give us a manual for the Maxxyz a number of times before they finally
> broke
> down and sent one.
But it's on the website. You need the right manual for the software
version you've installed.
> Also, moments ago I called High End to see how they
> would respond to the same thing I asked Martin. I asked the operator if
> there
> was anyone there who could answer a question about a Whole Hog and
> she said: "Sure, just a moment", unlike at Martin where they say "No"
> when
> asked the same thing regarding a Maxxyz. Shortly a guy came on and I
> asked
> him if he could tell me how to assign a cuelist to a fader on a Whole
> Hog. He
> wanted to know what type I was using, so I explained that I don't have
> one but
> just wanted to know if anyone there could help with such a question. He
> said
> that he could. I asked if he would do so and he said that he'd be happy
> to, but
> it might be difficult to walk me through it without one sitting in front
> of me.
>
> Martin takes the lamest approach they could take. Why don't you people
> want
> that to be known by anyone considering buying a Maxxyz, do you even know
> why? Do any of you know why???
We don't understand why you didn't ask the dealer this when you bought it,
why you didn't download the manual & why you didn't ask on the forum.
Christopher Jahn
news:d9r534t7efigdt24p...@4ax.com:
> Martin takes the lamest approach they could take. Why don't
> you people want that to be known by anyone considering buying
> a Maxxyz, do you even know why? Do any of you know why???
1. Because you've done a crappy job explaining what problem you
actually had wth Martin.
2. Because you haven't offered any evidence that your experience
is common.
3. When asked to explain the background of your problem, you
dodged the issue and accused us of all kinds of nonsense.
4. Because all of us are professionals that have done business
with Martin over many years, and we know what their flaws are;
your vague claims indicate that you don't know what you're doing,
or what to expect from a professinal business arrangement. Since
it's obvious to most members of this board that you don't know
what you're doing, it's hard to take you seriously.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
It is hard for me to find the right thing to say when I find
myself in a room full of cockroaches.
Christopher Jahn
<starl...@yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.com> wrote in
news:g0vbb4$krd$1...@aioe.org:
>> Do you think any of them send manuals
>> with their products, as Martin did not do with the Maxxyz?
>
> Yes. It's your own fault for not trying to find a manual for
> the system. It took me all of five minutes to download the
> complete manual along with several other documents from their
> website.
And I have never purchased a Martin product that did not come
with a manual. When I have had Martin products but misplaced the
manuals, I have never had problems acquiring them from Martin.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>If you call someone expecting failure, that's what you're
>going to get.
It was only after they failed several times that I learned to expect
their failure. Up until their multiple failures I had thought they were
probably at least somewhere near as competent as other companies.
They taught me that they are not, obviously.
>>Also, moments ago I called High End to see how they
>>would respond to the same thing I asked Martin. I asked the operator if there
>>was anyone there who could answer a question about a Whole Hog and
>>she said: "Sure, just a moment", unlike at Martin where they say "No" when
>>asked the same thing regarding a Maxxyz. Shortly a guy came on and I asked
>>him if he could tell me how to assign a cuelist to a fader on a Whole Hog. He
>>wanted to know what type I was using, so I explained that I don't have one but
>>just wanted to know if anyone there could help with such a question. He said
>>that he could. I asked if he would do so and he said that he'd be happy to, but
>>it might be difficult to walk me through it without one sitting in front of me.
>>
>>Martin takes the lamest approach they could take. Why don't you people want
>>that to be known by anyone considering buying a Maxxyz, do you even know
>>why? Do any of you know why???
>
>The problems you are experiencing are your own creations.
In contrast to that, the problems I have would never have even become
problems with a better company or if Martin was not so lame.
Duncan Wood
BUt you still haven't worked out which dealer you "bought" the maxxyz from
or why you didn't just download the manual?
rigger
> I've certainly never heard anyone else say anything even
> close to something like that. The best I've encountered is
> a couple of people who said Martin fixtures are ok.
Then you haven't been around this business very long and you don't
know very many people with street cred, do you.
I've been doing this better than 25 years on a national and global
level and I can count the times I've heard complaints about Martin
products on the fingers of one hand.
--
Dave Vick
Asst. Carpenter/Rigger,
"A Chorus Line" National Tour '08-'09
Duncan Wood
Now be fair, they did use to make roboscan 1220s. And Light Jockey. &
wired everthing on 3 pin connecters back to front. & you had to fit the
safetys before the hanging clamps or the carbiner wouldn't fit.
Richard Crowley
> Do you think any manufacturers can tell you how to use
> their microwave ovens?
No, certainly not. Did you think there were? Had you
intended that example to *support* your position?
If makers of mass-market appliances were required to
maintain a fully-staffed, free cooking schools, how much
do you think microwave ovens would cost?
TANSTAAFL
If your questions to the vendor were similar to your
amorphous rants here, it is quite easy to see why you
got the response you describe.
NB: People who hide behind annonymous psuedonyms
have zero credibility by definition. And people who post
general rants with zero facts are readily dismissed as trolls.
Richard Crowley
> Meanwhile, I still consider that the use of a nome de plume
> on Usenet is perfectly valid -
No question that it is valid. But equally no question that it
puts the annonymous poster in an automatic state of zero
credibility (at best).
> just as not posting using your real email address is just as
> valid in order to avoid viruses or other malicious stuff that
> trolls around.
They have *nothing* to do with each other. MOST Usenet
users have munged their email headers, but they still use their
real names. A practice which has nothing to do with harvesting
email addresses. Perhaps you don't understand how Usenet
works?
Michael Neff
> <noooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote in message
>
>
> > On 14 May 2008 23:16:50 +1200, "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)"
> > <S...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> [snip]>
> > Yet you have all jumped to the assumption that it's for no
> > valid reason.
> > It was intended as a warning. Now that I see the reaction, if I ever
> > want to warn about a lame company it would probably be best to
> > say they are fantastic, so people like yourselves will jump to the
> > conclusion that they must be lame. From the "logic" of this group
> > and yourself included I should jump to the conclusion that you
> > disbelieve smoking causes cancer...etc...
>
> post had contained some information on WHY you were slamming Martin. For
> the most part, we don't need a pseudonym when we complain. I told our
> Strand Sales Rep right to his face that I liked his product (he was trying
> to sell me a 300 series console) but that I would never buy one until their
> service in our area got a whole lot better than it was. I am living proof
> that Strand didn't put out a contract on me as a result of my lack of tact!
>
> As a group of technically inclined folks, we want to know what exactly is
> wrong. Are lamps blowing for no reasons? Are the optics inconsistent from
> unit to unit? Are the shutters failing to index? Is the service rep unable
> to fix a problem? As they say in the National Inquirer ads, "Inquiring
> minds want to know, we want to know!" With information we can compare your
> experiences with ours and perhaps even suggest a fix.
>
> Peter
I would like to purchase one light, Parcam size, small spot maybe,
which could be used remotely to follow an actor. The High School
theater has little funding and no room for large normal spotlights to
follow moving actors, nor do we have enough instruments to fill all
the holes as they wander during a song. Could someone give me some
ideas- companies, prices? dependable is important but price is key.
Duncan Wood
wrote:
It'll be cheaper to buy enough lights to actually light the stage.
Followspotting with a moving head light is seriously tricky.
Bert Morris
snip
> It'll be cheaper to buy enough lights to actually light the stage.
> Followspotting with a moving head light is seriously tricky.
Good points, Duncan, and true, in many situations; but for the price of
either renting a followspot or tricking out one of your own profiles
'as' a followspot, your lighting designer can actually save on lighting
(if manpower is not a cost issue).
By using a followspot(s), the LD can limit the use of other lighting
instruments. In other words, don't light the entire stage if one or two
followspots can keep the 'face' on your production. Judicious use of
even one followspot can keep the contrast levels for area lighting way
down. It also has the added advantage of keeping the audience attention
exactly where you want it, even while pre-setting the next scene.
In a properly rehearsed lighting cue, one performer covered in one
followspot can carry an entire scene without ANY other stage lighting,
if it comes down to that. And you are not limited to acting area, color,
intensity, beam size [coverage], or focus; any changes in these aspects
are available at any time within the cue.
It involves a very 'theatrical' way of presentation; but hey, that's the
business you are in. Go for it; followspots are the potential in stage
lighting, not the limits.
Regards,
Bert
FluxionDesigns
As those guys said, your cheapest option is probably to buy a couple
extra lights to fill those holes. You can pick up a couple used par
cans quite cheap, and make them work, as long as you have dimmers for
them in your front of house positions.
That said, there are a couple of decent mirror heads for leikos that
are made for things like moving specials around and filling holes.
I've successfully used them as follow spots several times, and while
it takes a little practice if you're controlling it with submaster
faders, it's quite easy if you have a board which is made to control
moving lights and has a trackball. At the very least, they are easy to
program to hit a specific position (a hole) and then move to hit a
different one later on.
If you're on a tight budget, the place to look is at the meteor
Elipscans:
http://www.meteor-global.com/products-theatricalLighting.php
they are made to fit on the front of a source four with a barrel of 26
degrees or less. I own eight of them that I use in auto mode for
parties, and will often put one or two in the front of house for shows
where I want a followspot look, or will need to fill in some holes.
If you have the money, then Roscoe makes the I-Cue, which is basically
the same thing, but with a bit more finesse. The biggest difference
you get for the price is that the Elipscans have only one channel of
control each for pan and tilt - divide up the entire 180 degree spread
of where the mirror can move, and then put that range into 100 (0 -
full on your board) and you see that each 1 percent on your board
covers almost 2 degrees of movement. Over a long throw, this can be a
significant difference. The I-cue can use two channels to control pan
and two for tilt, which means that you have 10,000 positions you can
hit across that range instead of 100 (technically with one channel you
have 255, and with two you have 255 x 255, but in practice, it will be
your board's percentages that limit you).
The only time you will notice that difference, really, is if you have
the light moving very slowly across the stage. I once used an elipscan
to move a window gobo across the stage very slowly, to show the
movement of the moon outside, moving it 5 - 8% every five or six
minutes. Ideally I wanted a smooth movement over that range, but what
I got instead was that each time the board would click up a percentage
point as it did i's timed fade, the light would move a few inches on
the stage. By keeping the light rather dim in comparison to the other
stuff that was lighting the scene, I was able to get away with it, but
I was definitely wishing I had an I-cue during that technical
process.
There may be some other mirror heads out there, but I haven't run into
them. Some will add music sensing mics and other features (Meteor
makes two or three different versions of the Elipscan) to them, but it
sounds like all you need is the simplest version. Have a look and see
if they might do what you're looking for.
Stephen
Torrance Bell
1200' looks an awful lot like the Clay-Paky Shadow.
Torrance
M.C.Gordon Jr
I’m old school.
Give me a Strong Super Trouper any day. {:-)
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>Everyone I've encountered who has been around
>one has had bad experiences with it. Worst of all there is no
>support from the manufacturer. If you call them with a problem,
>they tell you they have no one who can help you. They refer
>you to a lame forum, and that's the "best" you can get out of
>them. It is all so pathetic that it's hard to believe, but it's true.
>Stay far away from Martin if you don't like things that suck.
One of the people I work with said he talked with some other
lighting guys from another gig that was in town over the weekend.
They said that everyone they've know who has been involved
with a Maxxyz has had bad things to say about it. It's always the
same...time after time. I mentioned it to a friend who is a sound
guy, and he said there are very few people who try to use one.
I pointed out since that's the case Martin should make a point
of providing help when people need it since they can't go find
it anywhere else...that if High End was too half ass to provide
help with Hogs--which they are NOT!--it wouldn't be as bad
since there are enough people using them that help could be
found a number of places. Not so and apparently with good
reason with the damn Maxxyz, because most people have
apparently learned to avoid them.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
It's very likely that your front lights are too close to the stage, if not
directly over the front of it. That is a very very common problem.
You can try solving it by using floods or diffusion filters, but that
makes them too dim imo. The best solution I've found for that sort of
problem is to use NSP par lamps and move them back far enough
that they can wash the whole stage. Then you might not have to
buy any more lights, but you probably would have to buy some
more power chord and whatever else it takes to get them there.
You can't fill an entire video screen if the projector is too close
and the same is true with lighting a stage, but for some reason(s)
people much too often don't seem able to figure that one out.
When I was doing lights for a band that was playing different bars
every week I eventually learnd that lesson, and how to overcome
it. I bought some cheap galvanised tubing (for the top of chain link
fences) at places like Lowe's and always kept it on hand. When
the house's downstage light bar was too close--which was most
if not all of the time--I'd hang my own where it needed to be. If I
thought we'd be going back a few times, I left it there. Another
light guy I was sort of friends with started doing the same thing
too, so it was good for lots of people over the years. One place
in particular I asked the owner if I could leave what I put up,
and he said: 'No because one else would use it.' I went ahead
and left it there anyway. In the five or six or however many years
that followed, every band I saw in there used the bar I left and
none of them ever used the original one that was still there (and
much prettier btw) except for one band that had more lights than
they could get on the one I left (the one I left was also several
feet longer than the original).
Christopher Jahn
news:5igr4412tuviqhq75...@4ax.com:
> They said that everyone they've know who has been involved
> with a Maxxyz has had bad things to say about it.
"They" report about "everyone," huh. And the problem is "bad
things."
That's the most pathetic complaint about a product I've seen
since you started this thread.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation: We have assumed
control.
Duncan Wood
> On Thu, 08 May 2008 19:22:06 +0900, nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO wrote:
>
>> Everyone I've encountered who has been around
>> one has had bad experiences with it. Worst of all there is no
>> support from the manufacturer. If you call them with a problem,
>> they tell you they have no one who can help you. They refer
>> you to a lame forum, and that's the "best" you can get out of
>> them. It is all so pathetic that it's hard to believe, but it's true.
>> Stay far away from Martin if you don't like things that suck.
>
> One of the people I work with said he talked with some other
> lighting guys from another gig that was in town over the weekend.
> They said that everyone they've know who has been involved
> with a Maxxyz has had bad things to say about it.
WEll here's some 1st hand disagreement. I don't love it or use it by
choice but I've not had any rral grief & I found the manuals at the same
time as I loaded the software
> It's always the
> same...time after time. I mentioned it to a friend who is a sound
> guy, and he said there are very few people who try to use one.
That's kinda reassuring though, I reckon they do make a bloody awfull
sound console
> I pointed out since that's the case Martin should make a point
> of providing help when people need it since they can't go find
> it anywhere else...that if High End was too half ass to provide
> help with Hogs--which they are NOT!--it wouldn't be as bad
> since there are enough people using them that help could be
> found a number of places. Not so and apparently with good
> reason with the damn Maxxyz, because most people have
> apparently learned to avoid them.
Most of us avoid Hogs as well though,
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>On May 17, 7:37 pm, noooo...@nonono.nonononoNO wrote:
>
>> I've certainly never heard anyone else say anything even
>> close to something like that. The best I've encountered is
>> a couple of people who said Martin fixtures are ok.
>
>
>Then you haven't been around this business very long and you don't
>know very many people with street cred, do you.
>
>I've been doing this better than 25 years on a national and global
>level and I can count the times I've heard complaints about Martin
>products on the fingers of one hand.
I sure can't believe that one, nor can I believe you do.
Stuart Wheaton
>> I would like to purchase one light, Parcam size, small spot maybe,
>> which could be used remotely to follow an actor. The High School
>> theater has little funding and no room for large normal spotlights to
>> follow moving actors, nor do we have enough instruments to fill all
>> the holes as they wander during a song. Could someone give me some
>> ideas- companies, prices? dependable is important but price is key.
>
> It's very likely that your front lights are too close to the stage, if not
> directly over the front of it. That is a very very common problem.
> You can try solving it by using floods or diffusion filters, but that
> makes them too dim imo.
>The best solution I've found for that sort of
> problem is to use NSP par lamps and move them back far enough
> that they can wash the whole stage.
Dumbest thing you've said yet.
> Then you might not have to
> buy any more lights, but you probably would have to buy some
> more power chord
How much for 100 feet of C major?
> and whatever else it takes to get them there.
> You can't fill an entire video screen if the projector is too close
> and the same is true with lighting a stage, but for some reason(s)
> people much too often don't seem able to figure that one out.
> When I was doing lights for a band that was playing different bars
> every week I eventually learnd that lesson, and how to overcome
> it. I bought some cheap galvanised tubing (for the top of chain link
> fences) at places like Lowe's and always kept it on hand. When
> the house's downstage light bar was too close--which was most
> if not all of the time--I'd hang my own where it needed to be.
Wow! a new record for dumb ideas, fence pipe as lighting position! Do I
dare ask how you rigged it? Cheapest clothesline you could find?
> If I
> thought we'd be going back a few times, I left it there.
Always a good idea with cheesy rigging!
> Another
> light guy I was sort of friends with started doing the same thing
> too, so it was good for lots of people over the years. One place
> in particular I asked the owner if I could leave what I put up,
> and he said: 'No because one else would use it.' I went ahead
> and left it there anyway.
So, you can't obey the instructions of the guys who own the spaces you
work in.
> In the five or six or however many years
> that followed,
Until the bar crashed and killed 6 patrons?
> every band I saw in there used the bar I left and
> none of them ever used the original one that was still there (and
> much prettier btw) except for one band that had more lights than
> they could get on the one I left (the one I left was also several
> feet longer than the original).
Stuart
rigger
>> I've been doing this better than 25 years on a national and global
>> level and I can count the times I've heard complaints about Martin
>> products on the fingers of one hand.
>
> I sure can't believe that one, nor can I believe you do.
Professionals couldn't give a rat's ass what anonymous kiddies
believe. Go back to your tinker-toy "lighting rigs," there's a good
little boy...
Duncan Wood
Since the days of the roboscan the only justifiable one I've heard is the
safety bond arragement on the mac300s. You still haven't told us which
dealer you bought this Maxyyz from who couldn't tell you where the manual
was on the website.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>On Thu, 29 May 2008 23:15:33 -0700, Richard Crowley wrote:
>
>>> Meanwhile, I still consider that the use of a nome de plume on Usenet
>>> is perfectly valid -
>>
>> No question that it is valid. But equally no question that it puts the
>> annonymous poster in an automatic state of zero credibility (at best).
>
>That is not an issue when credibility is either not desired, or has been
>proven over a period of time. :o)
These ngs always have liars, and they always have freaks of various
types. I predicted that this one is no different, and judging by the
responses that have been made I can only believe my prediction
was correct. The fact that none of you appear able to appreciate
that, much less do any of you appear to have been able to figure
it out for yourselves, is even more reason for me not to give specific
info. The only reason anyone would really care to know, is so they
could try to find a way of screwing up my gear or worse if I piss them
off enough. The more valid a complaint or criticism I have, the more
it's likely to piss off someone who's opposed to seeing it pointed out...
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>On Jun 10, 3:59 am, noooo...@nonono.nonononoNO wrote:
>
>>> I've been doing this better than 25 years on a national and global
>>> level and I can count the times I've heard complaints about Martin
>>> products on the fingers of one hand.
>>
>> I sure can't believe that one, nor can I believe you do.
>
>
>Professionals couldn't give a rat's ass
In your 25 years 'round the globe have you heard more
than 5 complaints about any other company(s)? Maybe
you'd like people to believe that you've heard more than
5 complaints about every company except Martin. From
your vast experience, what particularly do you like about
the Maxxyz other than the Martin emblem?
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO wrote:
>
>
>>> I would like to purchase one light, Parcam size, small spot maybe,
>>> which could be used remotely to follow an actor. The High School
>>> theater has little funding and no room for large normal spotlights to
>>> follow moving actors, nor do we have enough instruments to fill all
>>> the holes as they wander during a song. Could someone give me some
>>> ideas- companies, prices? dependable is important but price is key.
>>
>> It's very likely that your front lights are too close to the stage, if not
>> directly over the front of it. That is a very very common problem.
>> You can try solving it by using floods or diffusion filters, but that
>> makes them too dim imo.
>
>>The best solution I've found for that sort of
>> problem is to use NSP par lamps and move them back far enough
>> that they can wash the whole stage.
>
>Dumbest thing you've said yet.
Yet it worked for me many times and every time, and you
don't have a suggestion that's as good much less better.
Or do you? If so, why not share it instead of just bitching
about something that does work?
>> Then you might not have to
>> buy any more lights, but you probably would have to buy some
>> more power chord
>
>How much for 100 feet of C major?
>
>> and whatever else it takes to get them there.
>> You can't fill an entire video screen if the projector is too close
>> and the same is true with lighting a stage, but for some reason(s)
>> people much too often don't seem able to figure that one out.
>> When I was doing lights for a band that was playing different bars
>> every week I eventually learnd that lesson, and how to overcome
>> it. I bought some cheap galvanised tubing (for the top of chain link
>> fences) at places like Lowe's and always kept it on hand. When
>> the house's downstage light bar was too close--which was most
>> if not all of the time--I'd hang my own where it needed to be.
>
>Wow! a new record for dumb ideas, fence pipe as lighting position!
Try explaining exactly what's wrong with using fence pipe, and
also what sort of pipe should be used instead and why.
>Do I
>dare ask how you rigged it? Cheapest clothesline you could find?
>
>> If I
>> thought we'd be going back a few times, I left it there.
>
>Always a good idea with cheesy rigging!
>
>
>> Another
>> light guy I was sort of friends with started doing the same thing
>> too, so it was good for lots of people over the years. One place
>> in particular I asked the owner if I could leave what I put up,
>> and he said: 'No because one else would use it.' I went ahead
>> and left it there anyway.
>
>So, you can't obey the instructions of the guys who own the spaces you
>work in.
It benefitted many people over a period of several years, and
if the guy still didn't like it after the first week, or month, or year,
or two years, or three years, or four years...it would have only
taken him long enough to say: "Get that thing down." to one of
his employees, or to me when he saw me in there, and it would
have been gone. Since he didn't have it taken down, and every
band I saw in there made use of it, it seems that it quite possibly
was a good idea and the owner was able to figure that out. So it
looks like you have no good complaint but only wish that you did.
>> In the five or six or however many years
>> that followed, every band I saw in there used the bar I left and
Duncan Wood
BUt you still don't seem to have tried talking to the dealer who sold said
Maxxyz. Or downloaded the freely available manual from the same site that
supplies the uptodate software for it.
Peter Herman
>>
>>Wow! a new record for dumb ideas, fence pipe as lighting position!
>
> Try explaining exactly what's wrong with using fence pipe, and
> also what sort of pipe should be used instead and why.
Fence pipe is thin walled which makes it unsatisfactory as lighting pipe.
At least in the US where we have C-clamps with a fairly stout screw, it is
very easy to have someone over tighten the clamp and dimple or dent the
pipe. These dimples and dents introduce weak spots in the pipe which can
cause it to collapse under the weight of instruments hung on it.
Schedule 40 steel/iron pipe is what is generally used. While it is heavier,
it is much stronger and there is much less risk of a pipe failing over an
audience's head. If you have a failure of your fence pipe and someone is
injured, both you and the venue which let you hang it would be looking at a
very big settlement since the plaintiff's lawyers would have an easy time
demonstrating that you were negligent for not following accepted industry
standards.
Peter
Peter Herman
<nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote in message
news:1kns44hop0tqtughh...@4ax.com...
I hate to say it, but Rigger is a professional who has been contributing
good stuff to this group for years. Based on that and what other lighting
folks I know say about their experiences with Martin, I think that what
Rigger has to say is pretty spot on. Do I beleive that you had a bad
experience, sure, even good companies produce a lemon now and then. Do I
think that you went about trying to fix the problem very professionally -
no!
Peter
Torrance Bell
> types. I predicted that this one is no different, and judging by the
> responses that have been made I can only believe my prediction
> was correct. The fact that none of you appear able to appreciate
> that, much less do any of you appear to have been able to figure
> it out for yourselves, is even more reason for me not to give specific
> info. The only reason anyone would really care to know, is so they
> could try to find a way of screwing up my gear or worse if I piss them
> off enough. The more valid a complaint or criticism I have, the more
> it's likely to piss off someone who's opposed to seeing it pointed out...
If you think the people who have been posting here for years with good
and valid information, questions, complaints, and so forth are liars
'like the rest of humanity' then why bother posting here at all?
Again, all people that use /any/ company's products will have complaints
from time to time. Most of the time, the complaints are valid and
backed up with specific information. For example, "I had a problem with
a soundboard made by Mackie. Model 1604. After a quick search on the
internet, it turns out the problem is with a ribbon cable."
Your initial complaint had zero information, only hate. You failed to
specify the actual product and problem. You never mentioned where you
got it from, or whether it was new or used.
What did your mother say to you when you were a kid? "If you don't have
anything nice to say, don't say anything at all because no one wants to
hear your negativity!" (or are you old enough to have learned that yet?)
Your posts are consistent with the posts of an internet troll.
Also, industry standards are in place for a reason, and usually that
reason is experience has taught that half-ass rigs lead to accidents,
injuries, and yes.....death. Your use of fence pipe to hang lights from
is THE WRONG ANSWER! The venue that allowed you to install such a thing
should be cited and fined and made to replace it. I'm surprised an
inspector hasn't already.
Please save us and yourself the time and trouble.
Do not post in stagecraft newsgroups again.
Torrance
Christopher Jahn
<starl...@yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.com> wrote in
news:g2peqq$3ca$1...@aioe.org:
>> These ngs always have liars, and they always have freaks of
>> various types. I predicted that this one is no different, and
>> judging by the responses that have been made I can only
>> believe my prediction was correct.
>
> If you think the people who have been posting here for years
> with good and valid information, questions, complaints, and so
> forth are liars 'like the rest of humanity' then why bother
> posting here at all?
Because he's not interested in getting help, or learning how to
learn to use his equipment; he's here solely to libel Martin.
This is easily discerned by reading his posts, where we can
clearly see that he
- never described the problem in detail,
- never described what actions he took to solve the problem
- never explains why he did't call his vendor first
- never explains exactly what it was he was told by Martin
- he's never posted here under this psuedonym
- he's hiding his identity completely
- he hasn't even bothered to establish his credibility
A stranger wearing a mask walks in to your office and tells you
that a vendor you sometimes use "sucks." Should he be surprised
that he's not taken seriously?
But "nonononononono" is right. There are liars to be found in
this ng, and he's the proof.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( http://soflatheatre.blogspot.com/
I may have my faults, but being wrong isn't one of them.
Christopher Jahn
news:sc9v44lrqont825a6...@4ax.com:
>>Wow! a new record for dumb ideas, fence pipe as lighting
>>position!
>
> Try explaining exactly what's wrong with using fence pipe, and
> also what sort of pipe should be used instead and why.
A fence pipe lacks the tensile strength, and is not rated for use
for anything other than its intended use. It will bend under a
load, Its walls will collapse under a strongly tightend c-clamp,
and that destroys the structural integrity of the pipe, leading
to metal fatigue and complete structural failure: the pipe will
break.
Only properly hung schedule 40 pipe should be used for this
application. This is rigging 101.
You just outed yourself as a rank amateur who doesn't squat about
rigging.
Christopher Jahn
news:484ffabc$1...@nntp.zianet.com:
>
> Do I think that you went about trying to fix the
> problem very professionally - no!
We know he's not a professional because he thought hanging lights
from a fence post was a good idea.
:-)
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2008-06-11 starl...@yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.com said:
>> These ngs always have liars, and they always have freaks of
>>various types. I predicted that this one is no different, and
>>judging by the responses that have been made I can only believe
>>my prediction was correct. The fact that none of you appear able
>Also, industry standards are in place for a reason, and usually that
>reason is experience has taught that half-ass rigs lead to
>accidents, injuries, and yes.....death. Your use of fence pipe to
>hang lights from is THE WRONG ANSWER! The venue that allowed you
>to install such a thing should be cited and fined and made to
>replace it. I'm surprised an inspector hasn't already.
posted about the fence pipe I knew what we were dealing
with.
LEt's hope the only person he kills is himself with this
sort of stupidity.
And finally, MR. nonono note that though I disguise my
internet address, I provide a name, and a clue to decode the
email address.
Anybody who wants further contact *can* email me, and thence
get a phone number if they have the need.
YOu oth are just a trolling coward.
>Please save us and yourself the time and trouble.
>Do not post in stagecraft newsgroups again.
I would agree with this.
Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider
Incompetence knows no barriers of time or place.
Jose
> learn to use his equipment; he's here solely to libel Martin.
... which he's being very successful at, since subsequent conversation
which has nothing to do with Martin carries the same subject line.
hint: change the subject line when you change the subject. :)
Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
rigger
> I hate to say it, but Rigger is a professional who has been contributing
> good stuff to this group for years. Based on that and what other lighting
> folks I know say about their experiences with Martin, I think that what
> Rigger has to say is pretty spot on.
Peter, I apologize to you for defending me...
I know it probably grates you to no end to do so, and it's
appreciated.
--
Dave Vick
Asst. Carpenter/Rigger
rrr
"rigger" <dave...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e5429311-888a-449d...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 11, 9:17 am, "Peter Herman" <rpe...@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> > I hate to say it, but Rigger is a professional who has been contributing
> > good stuff to this group for years. Based on that and what other
lighting
> > folks I know say about their experiences with Martin, I think that what
> > Rigger has to say is pretty spot on.
>
>
> Peter, I apologize to you for defending me...
> I know it probably grates you to no end to do so, and it's
> appreciated.
It doesn't grate me to do it. What grates is the need to do it! When a
newcomer to the group who hasn't established his or her bona fides (or in
this case, demonstrates his lack of them) claims that a respected member is
either lying or stupid. it just can't be allowed to happen without comment.
In a civilized group which has as its major goal sharing experience to help
members solve problems there is just no place for that sort of behavior.
Members often either disagree or have rather different solutions based on
their training, experience, and available resources. Mostly we manage to
lay them out civilly and let the originator of the question pick and choose
what will work in their situation. That's how it ought to work!
Peter
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>
>"rigger" <dave...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:e5429311-888a-449d...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 11, 9:17 am, "Peter Herman" <rpe...@zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I hate to say it, but Rigger is a professional who has been contributing
>> > good stuff to this group for years. Based on that and what other
>lighting
>> > folks I know say about their experiences with Martin, I think that what
>> > Rigger has to say is pretty spot on.
>>
>>
>> Peter, I apologize to you for defending me...
>> I know it probably grates you to no end to do so, and it's
>> appreciated.
>
>It doesn't grate me to do it. What grates is the need to do it! When a
>newcomer to the group who hasn't established his or her bona fides (or in
>this case, demonstrates his lack of them) claims that a respected member is
>either lying or stupid. it just can't be allowed to happen without comment.
I still don't believe he hasn't heard more than 5 complaints about
Martin if he's been around anyone who uses the stuff. I've heard
more than that just about the Maxxyz in the past year. I never hear
any complaints about Clay Paky, but I'm never around anyone
who uses it...
>In a civilized group which has as its major goal sharing experience to help
>members
I had good intentions, but no one appreciates that part.
>solve problems
Oh, but not avoid them. My bad.
>there is just no place for that sort of behavior.
>Members often either disagree or have rather different solutions based on
>their training, experience, and available resources. Mostly we manage to
>lay them out civilly and let the originator of the question pick and choose
>what will work in their situation. That's how it ought to work!
Maybe it does sometimes, when people are less agressive
and insulting. Oh, and don't forget that I was accused of
being a liar to start with, with absolutely no good reason for
anyone to think so.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
Agreed, but in that situation the thinner walled piped was adequate for
the job. The pipe was so close to the ceiling that the lights had to be
hung so the clamps didn't need to be tightened down too much, and
the pipe was supported every 5' or so. Even if people tried to destroy it
by over tightening they would have had to put a lot of effort into trying
to make it happen, but no one did.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>> These ngs always have liars, and they always have freaks of various
>> types. I predicted that this one is no different, and judging by the
>> responses that have been made I can only believe my prediction
>> was correct. The fact that none of you appear able to appreciate
>> that, much less do any of you appear to have been able to figure
>> it out for yourselves, is even more reason for me not to give specific
>> info. The only reason anyone would really care to know, is so they
>> could try to find a way of screwing up my gear or worse if I piss them
>> off enough. The more valid a complaint or criticism I have, the more
>> it's likely to piss off someone who's opposed to seeing it pointed out...
>
>
>If you think the people who have been posting here for years with good
>and valid information, questions, complaints, and so forth are liars
>'like the rest of humanity' then why bother posting here at all?
To warn people firstly, and see if other people have had similar
problems also. I expected some abuse as you can tell, but not
this much. I do tend to over-estimate people though, even when
I expect insults and abuse before making the first post.
>Again, all people that use /any/ company's products will have complaints
>from time to time. Most of the time, the complaints are valid and
>backed up with specific information. For example, "I had a problem with
>a soundboard made by Mackie. Model 1604. After a quick search on the
>internet, it turns out the problem is with a ribbon cable."
>
>Your initial complaint had zero information, only hate. You failed to
>specify the actual product and problem. You never mentioned where you
>got it from, or whether it was new or used.
Good.
>What did your mother say to you when you were a kid? "If you don't have
>anything nice to say, don't say anything at all because no one wants to
>hear your negativity!"
Or maybe she said that if some child wants to lick the stove, don't
ruin his life with your negativity by warning him not to do it. She
would never have said that though. Did yours?
>(or are you old enough to have learned that yet?)
> Your posts are consistent with the posts of an internet troll.
>
>Also, industry standards are in place for a reason, and usually that
>reason is experience has taught that half-ass rigs lead to accidents,
>injuries, and yes.....death. Your use of fence pipe to hang lights from
>is THE WRONG ANSWER!
I wasn't suggesting for the person to use it in his situation. In mine
it was adequate for the job. In his probably not. My point was that
downstage installs are often too close to the stage for a good wash.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>
>On 2008-06-11 starl...@yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.com said:
> >> These ngs always have liars, and they always have freaks of
> >>various types. I predicted that this one is no different, and
> >>judging by the responses that have been made I can only believe
> >>my prediction was correct. The fact that none of you appear able
><snippage>
> >Also, industry standards are in place for a reason, and usually that
> >reason is experience has taught that half-ass rigs lead to
> >accidents, injuries, and yes.....death. Your use of fence pipe to
> >hang lights from is THE WRONG ANSWER! The venue that allowed you
> >to install such a thing should be cited and fined and made to
> >replace it. I'm surprised an inspector hasn't already.
>Already figured this was a troll and an idiot, but when he
>posted about the fence pipe I knew what we were dealing
>with.
>LEt's hope the only person he kills is himself
Agreed!!!
>with this sort of stupidity.
>
>And finally, MR. nonono note that though I disguise my
>internet address, I provide a name, and a clue to decode the
>email address.
>Anybody who wants further contact *can* email me, and thence
>get a phone number if they have the need.
>YOu oth are just a trolling coward.
I didn't trust these people before I made the first post as you
can tell, and of course I have learned to distrust the group
very much by this time.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
>
><nooo...@nonono.nonononoNO> wrote in message
>news:1kns44hop0tqtughh...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 21 May 2008 14:46:21 -0700 (PDT), rigger <dave...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On May 17, 7:37 pm, noooo...@nonono.nonononoNO wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've certainly never heard anyone else say anything even
>>>> close to something like that. The best I've encountered is
>>>> a couple of people who said Martin fixtures are ok.
>>>
>>>
>>>Then you haven't been around this business very long and you don't
>>>know very many people with street cred, do you.
>>>
>>>I've been doing this better than 25 years on a national and global
>>>level and I can count the times I've heard complaints about Martin
>>>products on the fingers of one hand.
>>
>> I sure can't believe that one, nor can I believe you do.
>
>I hate to say it, but Rigger is a professional who has been contributing
>good stuff to this group for years. Based on that and what other lighting
>folks I know say about their experiences with Martin, I think that what
>Rigger has to say is pretty spot on.
Some people like it. Maybe it depends on what they've been
exposed to.
>Do I beleive that you had a bad
>experience, sure, even good companies produce a lemon now and then. Do I
>think that you went about trying to fix the problem very professionally -
>no!
Maybe not. But I wouldn't have had the problem with other
companies, and therefore wouldn't have ever posted anything
about it trying to warn anyone else.
nooo...@nonono.nonononono
I did that years ago, but wanted them to provide a printed manual so I
didn't have to challenge my own printer with the task. Maybe a printed
manual is too much to ask for a device like that, but so far I still consider
it to be a legitimate request.
Torrance Bell
>>
>> If you think the people who have been posting here for years with good
>> and valid information, questions, complaints, and so forth are liars
>> 'like the rest of humanity' then why bother posting here at all?
>
> To warn people firstly, and see if other people have had similar
> problems also. I expected some abuse as you can tell, but not
> this much. I do tend to over-estimate people though, even when
> I expect insults and abuse before making the first post.
To warn people of /what/ exactly?
>>
>> Your initial complaint had zero information, only hate. You failed to
>> specify the actual product and problem. You never mentioned where you
>> got it from, or whether it was new or used.
>
> Good.
No, it's /NOT/ good. If you want to be treated with any kind of dignity
or respect, you need to include factual and useful information if you're
going to tell people about your problems.
> Or maybe she said that if some child wants to lick the stove, don't
> ruin his life with your negativity by warning him not to do it. She
> would never have said that though. Did yours?
That doesn't make any sense, you're just rambling off a non-response.
>> Also, industry standards are in place for a reason, and usually that
>> reason is experience has taught that half-ass rigs lead to accidents,
>> injuries, and yes.....death. Your use of fence pipe to hang lights from
>> is THE WRONG ANSWER!
>
> I wasn't suggesting for the person to use it in his situation. In mine
> it was adequate for the job. In his probably not. My point was that
> downstage installs are often too close to the stage for a good wash.
You WERE suggesting it is an acceptable thing, just by the fact you
posted that you did it. It is NEVER acceptable to use fence pipe in an
application where you're not using it for fence. I DON'T CARE if it
worked for you. You're wrong for using it, and you're wrong for posting
about it. You've lost ALL credibility because of it.
You're RIGHT that lights being too close too the stage are a pain in the
neck if you want a wash, that's why responsible theatres hire
professional electricians and theatrical supply companies to install a
proper AP.
Torrance
Torrance Bell
>> Maxxyz. Or downloaded the freely available manual from the same site that
>> supplies the uptodate software for it.
>
> I did that years ago, but wanted them to provide a printed manual so I
> didn't have to challenge my own printer with the task. Maybe a printed
> manual is too much to ask for a device like that, but so far I still consider
> it to be a legitimate request.
IT IS a legitimate request to ask a dealer for the manual that was
supposed to come with the product in the first place. You should be
angry with the dealer, not with Martin. If you would have bought the
product NEW, which I am only guessing it is not, because you haven't
specified such, it would have. It's in the package.
Torrance
Duncan Wood
But it would out od date as soon as you upgraded the software, given the
choice between paying for software upgrades & printing the manual the
industries gone for printing the manual. Either way that's an issue for
your unnamed dealer.
Duncan Wood
I've used it a lot. It's heavy & the macs have a suffeciently large
presence in the hire market that they make more sense to own/rent as you
can sub them in more easily. The situation was the opposite when moving
mirrors where in vogue.
>> In a civilized group which has as its major goal sharing experience to
>> help
>> members
>
> I had good intentions, but no one appreciates that part.
>
>> solve problems
>
> Oh, but not avoid them. My bad.
>
>> there is just no place for that sort of behavior.
>> Members often either disagree or have rather different solutions based
>> on
>> their training, experience, and available resources. Mostly we manage
>> to
>> lay them out civilly and let the originator of the question pick and
>> choose
>> what will work in their situation. That's how it ought to work!
>
> Maybe it does sometimes, when people are less agressive
> and insulting. Oh, and don't forget that I was accused of
> being a liar to start with, with absolutely no good reason for
> anyone to think so.
Because everybody else had found the manual on the website. As per every
other desk manufacturer. & support is normally via your dealer,
particulalrly for question of a basic nature, complicated questions are
normally via forums as the people using the desk normally know more about
that end of the issue than the desk manufacturer. I don't ring Jands when
I can't work out why the Visat doesn't work unless it's a hardware fault.