Re: Lights that can be lowered and raised
Rusty
news:8e5aa7e7-b5c8-44bc...@d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
> that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
> lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
>
> JF
This sounds kinda like theatrical-type lighting, which is why I added a
cross-post to rec.arts.theatre.stagecraft.
What's the space like? is this a home? church? business? how big is the
space?
There are many options of course. Do you want to have separate flood fills
and spotlights? ability to add color? How much control do want over the
area spots? Would you want to spend money on automated lighting? What
about a dimming/control system for independent control of the area spots? do
aesthetics matter?
Rigging is another matter I am not extremely familiar with, but the
chandelier winch mentioned earlier sounds like a good starting point.
What's your budget? Enough for some basic par cans on a track? Or could you
splurge for something a bit more exotic?
Duncan Wood
wrote:
Budget's the deciding factor, if you've got plenty then TV style
pantographs work fine to a reasonable height,
Tamlite make a semi automatic winch
http://www.tamlite.co.uk/product_details.asp?product=546
or if you only need a little adjustment then rise & fall pendants are
moderately economic
http://www.directlight.co.uk/search.php?c_id=0&sc_id=0&search=rise+fall&submit.x=0&submit.y=0
Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting
> that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
> lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
>
> JF
*** Does it actually need to be raised and lowered? If you just need
area light, could you not arrange for the lights to cover the required
area from the beam height?
If you really do need the lights to be moved, chain winches can be had
at auto parts or surplus places. Be sure to get chains long enough to
span the vertical distance. Chain winches meant for car engine
replacements come with only a metre or two of lift height.
A cheaper solution is to rig boat winches. They use cable instead of
chain. Attach them to close-by walls and run their cables to the beams via
secondary pulleys.
In all cases, hook the chain or cable to pipe with eyebolts or to
truss. Cheap truss can be had from used TV or amateur radio antenna tower.
--
Richard Bonner
http://AIEL.chebucto.biz
David McCall
"Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting" <ai...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote
in message news:hbtijk$8ut$1...@Kil-nws-1.UCIS.Dal.Ca...
suggested wouldn't work, but are they safe? Would you be willing to put your
name on them as a professional in this biz? Anytime you rig equipment
overhead you have to take safety very seriously. I don't think boat winches
and chain motors purchased at an auto parts store are load rated for
theatrical use.
It is one thing for you to make decisions based on your extensive personal
experience where you will be installing and standing behind it personally.
However it is a completely different thing to suggest these solutions on a
public newsgroup where you have no idea if the people you are advising
may not have any concept of structures and stress. You have no way to
know how they will mount the winch or pulleys, and you don't know how
much weight will be put on it in the future. You don't know if a kid could
come by and release the winch while people are standing under the bar.
Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still isn't
legal for
you to install uncertified components in a public space.
David
Duncan Wood
wrote:
Or any other application where they suspend loads above people. Thereagain
most chainhoists used in theatre & rock & roll aren't individually rated
to lift or /suspend/ loads above people.
Richard Crowley
> Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still
> isn't legal for you to install uncertified components in a public space.
That is all very true. Note however, that absent direct information,
the original issue does NOT appear to be a theatrical (or even
public for all we know) situation. Remember that this thread was
only cross-posted to r.a.t.s (presumably from s.e.l) after it started.
Local jurisdictions regulate what can be deployed in public
places, whether mechanical or electrical, etc. But your warning
is a prudent reminder.
David McCall
"Richard Crowley" <rcro...@xp7rt.net> wrote in message
news:lfadnXnTtPAOsX7X...@posted.pcez...
use a winch designed for pulling a boat onto a trailer for overhead rigging.
Odds are that it would not be legal and if there was an accident, that
person might point back to this group and say that someone here
suggested that it would be OK.
I'm not paranoid, it's just that everyone IS out to get me :-)
David
Victor Roberts
Let me throw in my 2 cents.
I have a boat on a trailer, and can confirm that winches
designed to pull boats on to trailers DO NOT have a secure
means of locking the winch. They do not need a secure lock,
since the boat is usually not going anywhere if the winch
becomes unlocked.
While it may take quite a bit of force to pull a boat onto a
trailer, once the boat stops moving against the friction of
the bunkers on the trailer, there is almost no "unwinding"
force on the winch. The friction of the bunkers holds the
boat in place and the winch is not needed to keep the boat
from moving back off the trailer.
The winch locks are used to partially hold the boat on the
trailer when it is bouncing down the road, but the
"unwinding" force on the winch is very, very, small because
the boat is then strapped to the trailer. Mostly the winch
locks just keep the rope from unwinding due to its own its
own weight and dragging on the ground.
The locks these winches have are totally inadequate for
holding the winch against any substantial force for any
length of time.
This is one of many reason why using a boat winch for this
application is a VERY BAD idea.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
http://www.cflfacts.com
To reply via e-mail:
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Dave Vick
a winched-batten lifting system commonly used for theatrical
houselighting that may serve your needs. It's pricy, but it'll
certainly do what you say you need. I installed a few of them in a
middle school auditorium a couple of years back, and they're pretty
slick.
As far as the liability issues raised, I'm in violent agreement; chain
hoists may well handle the load, but many manufacturers do not certify
certain model lines for overhead lifting.
Using "borrowed technology" (I'm trying to be polite here) such as boat
winches for overhead lifting is an invitation to disaster. Please do not
even consider it.
--
Dave Vick
Asst. Carpenter/Rigger
"A Chorus Line" National Tour '08-'??
(...and ETCP Certified Rigger, Arena and Theatre)
David McCall
He is a very useful member of this community.
It just seemed like a bad idea to suggest such things in a public
forum where you don't know who you might be influencing.
You might get away with such a winch if you mounted everything
securely and safetyed it once it was in place so that you never
relied on the winch to hold any load except for while it was moving,
and then you took it out before somebody got hurt. Even then it
qualifies as bad practice.
I wouldn't use an eye-bolt here either because the nut has the potential
of working it's way off and dropping it's load. So to speak. I would
prefer to wrap the cable around the pipe or perhaps use a hitch
and then swag it or use 3 wire clips to secure it. Faster and Safer.
Pipe isn't much fun to drill anyway.
David
Duncan Wood
wrote:
Amusingly doing either tends to get the job failed over here, if it's
going to be used for lifting then it gets a barrel clamp & an eye or wedge
socket on the end of the rope.
Richard Crowley
> Amusingly doing either tends to get the job failed over here, if it's
> going to be used for lifting then it gets a barrel clamp & an eye or wedge
> socket on the end of the rope.
I did an annual gig where I flew a microphone in the middle of a
60ft span (a giant wood-truss WW2-era quonset hut used as the
gymnasium at the elementary school in Canon Beach, Oregon)
I used 3/16" aircraft cable looped around the entire wood truss,
and secured with three wire clamps at each end. Never had any
problems in 15 years. But I did learn along the way to never trust
anyone else to secure the cable properly.
Duncan Wood
wrote:
When you've got a 20000:1 safety margin I'll cut you some slack:-)
David McCall
work yourself, but you don't know how someone else will do it. We
grew up in a time when there was a lot less regulation than there is now.
You hopefully learned some common sense and figured out ways to
accomplish stuff just based on your experience, and what was on hand.
Too many stupid people did dumb stuff and got people hurt in the
process. Now there is an "legally accepted" way to do everything, and
you have to do it that way. It's one of the reasons we look forward to
retirement. Maybe someday after I'm totally useless.
David
TimR
RickR
> How about a long piece of Allthread and a crank?
There are winches designed for commercial & residential ceilings.
Their purpose is to lower chandeliers for cleaning & re-lamping. I
posted about them in SEL but it didn't cross over.
UL and professional!
---
RickR
Andrew Gabriel
This is how to take an expensive chandelier down for cleaning...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mf58Yndjsw
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Duncan Wood
<and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <35028d24-669a-4ce9...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
> RickR <lumino...@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Oct 27, 3:54 am, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> How about a long piece of Allthread and a crank?
>> There are winches designed for commercial & residential ceilings.
>> Their purpose is to lower chandeliers for cleaning & re-lamping. I
>> posted about them in SEL but it didn't cross over.
>> UL and professional!
>
> This is how to take an expensive chandelier down for cleaning...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mf58Yndjsw
>
I'm wondering if anyone in the UK didn't think "Brace yourself Rodney"
before going to that clip.
Lloydj
Lloydj
Entertainment Lighting) wrote:
> > "Jim" <jfer...@gmail.com> wrote: in message
I'm afraid I couldn't disagree with this approach more strongly.
Sounds like the lights are over people's heads (not actors) and MUST
be rigged with properly safety-rated equipment. It could be as simple
as a piece of 1-1/2" sched. 40 black pipe with properly sized wire
rope running through sheaves expressly designed for this purpose,
mounted with an engineered solution to prevent their coming loose, and
then going to a manual or motorized approved winch.
Antenna truss is completely inappropriate for lighting use because the
tubing is typically only about 1" in diameter and it is engineered to
be standing vertically, not hanging horizontally. I have done this
ONLY once to hang commando cloth backdrops because it truly is cheap
stuff.
If you have a budget, look at IFF Manfrotto yo-yo lilts with built-in
electric circuits and are rated for 250kg. They also have to be
mounted properly but that's the end of your engineering since they are
a complete solution. I put about 40 of these things in Sony Music
Studios in Manhattan and they have worked flawlessly.
For all your rigging needs, and maybe a little advice, check with Fehr
Brothers (see them online). They are a wonderful one stop rigging
source.
Anyone who does any rigging these days is under a pall because of a
couple of unfortunate accidents in the recent past. Please don't add
to that poor reputation by using non-rated Home Depot bolts, auto
cable winches (which are 12V DC and consume a huge amount of current),
or other "cheap" solutions and having an accident.
Be smart, and always safety first!
LJ
Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting
> "Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting" <ai...@chebucto.ns.ca>
> wrote:
> >> "Jim" <jfe...@gmail.com> wrote: in message
> >> We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
> >> that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
> >> lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
> >>
> >> JF
(Snip)
> > If you really do need the lights to be moved, chain winches can be had
> > at auto parts or surplus places.
(Snip)
> > A cheaper solution is to rig boat winches. They use cable instead of
> > chain. Attach them to close-by walls and run their cables to the beams via
> > secondary pulleys.
> >
> > In all cases, hook the chain or cable to pipe with eyebolts or to
> > truss. Cheap truss can be had from used TV or amateur radio antenna tower.
> > --
> > Richard Bonner
> You have wandered out onto a rather shaky limb. Not that the things you
> suggested wouldn't work, but are they safe?
*** That depends on how well they are rigged and how strong the beam
is. Jim was pretty vague as to the circumstances.
> Would you be willing to put your name on them as a professional in
> this biz?
*** If I select the equipment and do or oversee the rigging - yes.
> Anytime you rig equipment overhead you have to take safety very
> seriously. I don't think boat winches and chain motors purchased
> at an auto parts store are load rated for theatrical use.
*** It depends on how heavy the lights and support components are. One
can get different ratings for boat winches and chain hoists. The latter
especially would be suitable because they are meant to lift an engine. The
former are bought to handle a given size boat. Allow enough of a rating
margin and it can do the job.
Now I would not raise a major lighting rig with boat winches, but a
pipe with have a half dozen PARS or fresnels is not a problem. There are
caveats to using certain models, though. Some have no lowering control.
Others have no load locks. I see smaller, similar models used in tripod
stands that are legally on the market and they are rated accordingly.
> It is one thing for you to make decisions based on your extensive personal
> experience where you will be installing and standing behind it personally.
> However it is a completely different thing to suggest these solutions on a
> public newsgroup where you have no idea if the people you are advising
> may not have any concept of structures and stress. You have no way to
> know how they will mount the winch or pulleys, and you don't know how
> much weight will be put on it in the future. You don't know if a kid could
> come by and release the winch while people are standing under the bar.
*** All valid points, David, but they can apply to anything suggested
here. Users would have to use correct replacement lamps, mount lights
away from flammables and sprinkler heads, wire connectors properly, use
proper overload protection devices, and keep the public away from
equipment.
I am not dissing your response, but any public forum suggestions have
potential to harm if those using the suggestions have not considered
the consequences if they have not engaged professionals or at
least professional advice at their ends to oversee a given job.
> Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still isn't
> legal for you to install uncertified components in a public space.
*** Hmm, I don't believe that's the case here in Canada - or at least
not here in Nova Scotia. As long as a component is certified for the rated
load, it should pass inspection.
Now, radio-tower trussing might be a sticking point, but I can tell
you that some of the lighting trussing I have seen in stores and displays
in public places is actually less strong than radio-tower antenna. It's
pretty light duty.
Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:35:41 +0100, David McCall wrote:
> > I don't think boat winches and chain motors purchased at an auto
> > parts store are load rated for theatrical use.
> Or any other application where they suspend loads above people.
*** Chain hoists would be rated for that because they do suspend loads
above people - at a minimum, the workers using them.
> Thereagain most chainhoists used in theatre & rock & roll aren't
> individually rated to lift or /suspend/ loads above people.
*** Unless some governing body tests them and comes up with a rule
book, those ratings won't appear, either. In the meantime, I'd say that
they fall under industrial usage and so those rules would apply.
Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting
> Local jurisdictions regulate what can be deployed in public
> places, whether mechanical or electrical, etc.
*** They sure do and they vary widely, in my experience, as does
enforcement.
> But your warning is a prudent reminder.
*** Agreed.
Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting
> "Richard Crowley" <rcro...@xp7rt.net> wrote:
> > David McCall wrote:
> >> Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still
> >> isn't legal for you to install uncertified components in a public space.
> >
> > That is all very true. Note however, that absent direct information,
> > the original issue does NOT appear to be a theatrical (or even
> > public for all we know) situation. Remember that this thread was
> > only cross-posted to r.a.t.s (presumably from s.e.l) after it started.
(Snip)
> My warning was more aimed at the idea of advising a total stranger to
> use a winch designed for pulling a boat onto a trailer for overhead rigging.
> Odds are that it would not be legal and if there was an accident, that
> person might point back to this group and say that someone here
> suggested that it would be OK.
*** True, but the liability lies with the implementer in the end. A
newsgroup partipant who is perhaps a country or continent away cannot
oversee another participant in his local area who decides to not follow
safety guidelines.
> I'm not paranoid, it's just that everyone IS out to get me :-)
> David
*** Lock up your winches then! (-:
Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting
> I really didn't intend to start a rag fest on Richard.
*** I didn't take it that way. It's a discussion group and participants
need not agree with one another. Followups of a dissenting or clarifying
manner, if kept civil, are for the positive.
> He is a very useful member of this community.
*** Thanks, I appreciate that.
> It just seemed like a bad idea to suggest such things in a public
> forum where you don't know who you might be influencing.
*** I don't disagree, but as with any suggestions, the user must in the
end decide upon the suitability of those given.
> You might get away with such a winch if you mounted everything
> securely and safetyed it once it was in place so that you never
> relied on the winch to hold any load except for while it was moving,
> and then you took it out before somebody got hurt. Even then it
> qualifies as bad practice.
*** Again, I am not saying that boat winches are the answer for every
lighting job, but if a correct winch is bought and is adequately
safeguarded, it may be suitable for some jobs. Certainly, safety chaining
the load in place is a good idea as is guarding the winch itself.
This discussion reminds me of years ago being in some university or
military hall where winches had been used to raise pipes with flags or
some sort of banners (or maybe they were chandeliers) high above the
floor. The winches were accessible to the public, but the handles had been
removed. I don't remember noticing if there were locks on them or not.
> I wouldn't use an eye-bolt here either because the nut has the potential
> of working it's way off and dropping its load. So to speak.
*** We rent pipe and chain to a few local theatre groups for one-off
shows every year where the only option is to dead hang. The nuts have
split lockwashers and the eyebolt ends have been peened over the nuts to
prevent exactly that. Also, the longer pipes have three eyebolts.
> I would prefer to wrap the cable around the pipe or perhaps use a
> hitch and then swag it or use 3 wire clips to secure it. Faster and
> Safer. Pipe isn't much fun to drill anyway.
> David
*** We used a v-shaped rest for the pipe and a drill press to keep the
pipe and drill bit straight. A vari-speed pulley system on the drill ran
it at a slow enough speed to bite without skating.
Duncan Wood
Lighting <ai...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
> Duncan Wood wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:35:41 +0100, David McCall wrote:
>> > I don't think boat winches and chain motors purchased at an auto
>> > parts store are load rated for theatrical use.
>
>> Or any other application where they suspend loads above people.
>
> *** Chain hoists would be rated for that because they do suspend loads
> above people - at a minimum, the workers using them.
>
You can buy ones that are, nearly all the ones out there aren't. Don't
stand under the load is fairly commonly (less commonly than legally
required or sensible) stated rule fro any industrial lifting equipment.
>
>> Thereagain most chainhoists used in theatre & rock & roll aren't
>> individually rated to lift or /suspend/ loads above people.
>
> *** Unless some governing body tests them and comes up with a rule
> book, those ratings won't appear, either. In the meantime, I'd say that
> they fall under industrial usage and so those rules would apply.
>
Well CM say don't. I've never seen an industrial rule that allows standing
under something suspended from a normal lifting machine.
Duncan Wood
This is probably a bit like the hook clamp discussion, but why do that
rather than just use a barrel clamp?
TimR
. Please don't add
> to that poor reputation by using non-rated Home Depot bolts, auto
> cable winches (which are 12V DC and consume a huge amount of current),
> or other "cheap" solutions and having an accident.
>
A long threaded rod driven by a gear could be an elegant and safe
solution to the problem. If an 1/8 inch cable can suspend a fixture,
so can a half inch or larger solid rod.
Of course I assume you'd hire somebody to do the calculations.
Duncan Wood
It'll probably suspend it quite happily, how long before it seizes is a
rather seperate question, you don't normally use UNC/metric thread forms
for a drive thread. If you need to hire somebody to calculate the SWL on
1/2 inch threaded rod (which isn't the same as 1/2" solid) then you
probably want to stay away from electricity in general.
TimR
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:04:25 -0000, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 28, 9:54 pm, Lloydj <ljeffo...@theclarientgroup.com> wrote:
> > . Please don't add
> >> to that poor reputation by using non-rated Home Depot bolts, auto
> >> cable winches (which are 12V DC and consume a huge amount of current),
> >> or other "cheap" solutions and having an accident.
>
> > A long threaded rod driven by a gear could be an elegant and safe
> > solution to the problem. If an 1/8 inch cable can suspend a fixture,
> > so can a half inch or larger solid rod.
>
> > Of course I assume you'd hire somebody to do the calculations.
>
> It'll probably suspend it quite happily, how long before it seizes is a
> rather seperate question, you don't normally use UNC/metric thread forms
> for a drive thread.
No reason you have to use the same thread on the drive as on the
fixture. Lots of ways to skin this cat. Turn down the last inch on
either end, add ringfeder and spur gear, and a hand crank. I can
think of at least half a dozen other ways without even trying. But
with the very low forces involved, there's a good chance you could
drive it from the existing threads.
Don't be jealous because you didn't think of it first! I haven't
patented it and you are welcome to the idea.
Duncan Wood
> On Oct 30, 1:36 pm, "Duncan Wood" <nntpn...@dmx512.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:04:25 -0000, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > On Oct 28, 9:54 pm, Lloydj <ljeffo...@theclarientgroup.com> wrote:
>> > . Please don't add
>> >> to that poor reputation by using non-rated Home Depot bolts, auto
>> >> cable winches (which are 12V DC and consume a huge amount of
>> current),
>> >> or other "cheap" solutions and having an accident.
>>
>> > A long threaded rod driven by a gear could be an elegant and safe
>> > solution to the problem. If an 1/8 inch cable can suspend a fixture,
>> > so can a half inch or larger solid rod.
>>
>> > Of course I assume you'd hire somebody to do the calculations.
>>
>> It'll probably suspend it quite happily, how long before it seizes is a
>> rather seperate question, you don't normally use UNC/metric thread
>> forms for a drive thread.
>
> No reason you have to use the same thread on the drive as on the
> fixture.
Err no, but if you try & buy any other thread form it gets rather expensive
> Lots of ways to skin this cat. Turn down the last inch on
> either end, add ringfeder and spur gear, and a hand crank. I can
> think of at least half a dozen other ways without even trying. But
> with the very low forces involved, there's a good chance you could
> drive it from the existing threads.
>
> Don't be jealous because you didn't think of it first! I haven't
> patented it and you are welcome to the idea.
I've built all sorts if things driven from threads but in general winches
are far cheaper & more reliable.
Sean
> *** Chain hoists would be rated for that because they do suspend loads
> above people - at a minimum, the workers using them.
Nope. For most of the chain hoists we use in our industry (the good old
model L CM Lodestar, for example) using them to lift or suspend loads above
people is directly contrary to the manufacturer's instructions. As it is
in industrial applications - lifting a load directly above people's heads
is, generally speaking, a no-no.
> *** Unless some governing body tests them and comes up with a rule
> book, those ratings won't appear, either.
Those ratings have existed for years*, and there are motors on the market
that the manufacturer specifically says are 'rated' for hanging loads above
people.
* - for example the German BGV-C1 (formerly the insurance regulation VGB-70)
and the relatively new British Standard BS-7906 Part 1 Cat A.
Columbus McKinnon have been making a BGV-C1 variant of Lodestar for ages.
They're not much used in theatre/live music, but if you think they don't
exist you're just not terribly well informed.
Sx