Why are Broadway musicals so LOUD?!
Bob Grabowski
the past year, I've attended two shows that were deafendingly loud. I
forgave Jesus Christ Superstar because I saw it in previews and
figured that they were working on the sound before opening night. But
on Saturday I saw The Music Man. The vocals were so overamplified that
most of the words sung were unintelligible. Why is it necessary the
vocalists so much? For me, it ruined what was otherwise, a very
enjoyable show.
Bob
Lee Goodman
you.
I think everyone in my generation is deaf from loud rock music.
I also think that with electronic amplification, Broadway
doesn't need singers like Merman who could fill the house with
their voice. just hook up a mike and turn up the amp.
Movies are louder, concerts are louder, and now everyone just
expects it.
I almost walked out of Rent due to excessive volume hurting my
ears and when I took my nieces to Riverdance (don't ask), it was
deafening.
The microphone may be the worst thing that has ever happened to
broadway.
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
David A. Gilman
Well, it's your fault, really. Producers generally believe that the
audience of a musical wants it to sound like the cast recording CD
does in their living room. Sound designers design systems to do this,
and sound engineers mix the show that way. AND PEOPLE PAY TO SEE IT.
The producers feel vindicated in their feeling, and the cycle
continues.
That's the general reason that musicals are so loud. There are
obviously specific reasons, from everything that the director feels
the way show sounds is the way it should sound, to the sound engineer
doing what he wants regardless of what the designer had intended.
--
David A. Gilman
Sound Engineer, CATS
Marty Silverberg
overamplified.
--
MARTY
mart...@bellatlantic.net
"Bob Grabowski" <bubs...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:42mtkssla8f706r0g...@4ax.com...
David Lewis
<dgi...@ix.netcom.com> writes
>the director feels
>the way show sounds is the way it should sound, to the sound engineer
>doing what he wants regardless of what the designer had intended.
I suppose the other problem is that the sound engineers are so deaf that
to hear what is being offered needs to be loud!
Two shows I visited, GREASE and THE BLUES BROTHERS were so amplified
that my seat was vibrating. After a fairly short period of time being
subjected to the torture of sound in GREASE, my colour balance went
(concussion?). I honestly believe that if H&SE officials were to
monitor the decibel rating, a show would either be much quieter or
closed as injurious to public safety.
--
David Lewis
postm...@nodanw.com
Melanie
so distorted you can't understand what they were saying, as was the case
with Cabaret's Emcee in Baltimore On Sunday. If he sang you could mostly
make out the lyrics (truly I think that knowing them helped a lot) but
when he spoke you understood perhaps half of what he was saying. I didn't
seem to have that problem with anyone else - only the Emcee.
I wonder, too, how much of it has to do with the fact that sound checks
are done with an empty house and it is an art to compensate for bodies.
I also think it's too damn loud 90% of the time. When I have complained
to the sound guy, it has made no difference.
Melanie
"David A. Gilman" wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:47:24 -0400, Bob Grabowski
> <bubs...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I've been attending Broadway musicals for the past 20+ years but in
> >the past year, I've attended two shows that were deafendingly loud. I
> >forgave Jesus Christ Superstar because I saw it in previews and
> >figured that they were working on the sound before opening night. But
> >on Saturday I saw The Music Man. The vocals were so overamplified that
> >most of the words sung were unintelligible. Why is it necessary the
> >vocalists so much? For me, it ruined what was otherwise, a very
> >enjoyable show.
> >
> >Bob
>
> Well, it's your fault, really. Producers generally believe that the
> audience of a musical wants it to sound like the cast recording CD
> does in their living room. Sound designers design systems to do this,
> and sound engineers mix the show that way. AND PEOPLE PAY TO SEE IT.
> The producers feel vindicated in their feeling, and the cycle
> continues.
>
> That's the general reason that musicals are so loud. There are
> obviously specific reasons, from everything that the director feels
> the way show sounds is the way it should sound, to the sound engineer
> doing what he wants regardless of what the designer had intended.
>
Marcia Rovins
Marcia
Marty Silverberg wrote:
> I adored The Music Man, but also felt that the show was horribly
> overamplified.
>
> --
> MARTY
> mart...@bellatlantic.net
> "Bob Grabowski" <bubs...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:42mtkssla8f706r0g...@4ax.com...
David A. Gilman
<leegoodma...@planetkc.com.invalid> wrote:
>The microphone may be the worst thing that has ever happened to
>broadway.
Well, they've been using them since about the 30s.
It's not the technology, it's the people.
--
David A. Gilman
Sound Engineer - CATS
David A. Gilman
<mro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I miss the days when there were no mikes and Broadway performers had voices!
>
>Marcia
You must be pretty old. When was this? No mics part, not the
performers with voices part.
Foot mics and speakers have been used on Broadway since the 30s.
David A. Gilman
>That doesn't excuse overdoing the sound to the extent that the voices are
>so distorted you can't understand what they were saying, as was the case
>with Cabaret's Emcee in Baltimore On Sunday. If he sang you could mostly
>make out the lyrics (truly I think that knowing them helped a lot) but
>when he spoke you understood perhaps half of what he was saying. I didn't
>seem to have that problem with anyone else - only the Emcee.
Maybe the Emcee had bad diction? Or maybe the Emcee was so lousy,
that you had to amplify his voice so he could be heard at all. I know
the road guy for Cabaret, so I'll ask him and let you know.
>I wonder, too, how much of it has to do with the fact that sound checks
>are done with an empty house and it is an art to compensate for bodies.
Well, if you're working at a Broadway level, the chances are you have
the skill to make those adjustments. And certainly have the skill to
compensate for any oversight once the show has started.
>I also think it's too damn loud 90% of the time. When I have complained
>to the sound guy, it has made no difference.
Maybe other people are complaining that it is too soft.
Working as a sound engineer is one of the more complicated jobs you
can do on a musical. It's not as simple as turning it up or down.
This doesn't excuse over loud productions, but do try to keep it in
mind.
If you don't like the color of the set, or the cut of the costumes,
you don't ask them to change it to suit you. Why should the sound be
any different?
Pizzaman95
Jon A Conrad
>>I miss the days when there were no mikes and Broadway performers had voices!
>You must be pretty old. When was this? No mics part, not the
>performers with voices part.
>
>Foot mics and speakers have been used on Broadway since the 30s.
Yes, but not universally. Not all shows were miked, and it was rather a
point of pride not to need it. (THE MOST HAPPY FELLA made much of this in
the original issue of its recording, for instance; thereby implying that
other then-running shows *did* use amplification.) It would sometimes
happen (as with the Met Opera when it would tour to very large theaters
inhospitable to acoustic sound) that a show that had played NYC
unamplified would tour amplified. SOUTH PACIFIC was an example of this.
During the 1960s, "sound design" did become pretty near universal. I'm
told THE GRASS HARP (1971) was the last musical to play Broadway unmiked,
for its few performances.
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
con...@udel.edu
Marcia Rovins
old) are hearing the actual voice and not something coming out of speakers.
Marcia
"David A. Gilman" wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:26:38 GMT, Marcia Rovins
> <mro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >I miss the days when there were no mikes and Broadway performers had voices!
> >
> >Marcia
>
> You must be pretty old. When was this? No mics part, not the
> performers with voices part.
>
> Foot mics and speakers have been used on Broadway since the 30s.
>
Romey777
God, why is this total cliche still so prevalent? When I saw "Student Prince"
at Paper Mill, the woman next to me not only had several cellophane-wrapped
candies during the show, but she would then play with the wrapper in her lap
the rest of the time. Just when I'd be about to say something to her, she'd
stop (for a bit).
When I saw "Sunset Blvd.", my friend turned to me during the overture and
asked, "is this live?" The sound was so processed, it sounded totally canned.
Ugh. That's another reason I like to sit close - so you can (maybe) catch an
acoustic voice or instrument.
Romey
<a href="http://members.aol.com/romey777">http://members.aol.com/romey777</a>
Melanie Lynch
>
> Maybe the Emcee had bad diction? Or maybe the Emcee was so lousy,
> that you had to amplify his voice so he could be heard at all. I know
> the road guy for Cabaret, so I'll ask him and let you know.
Possibly. I would be interested to hear his observations
> Well, if you're working at a Broadway level, the chances are you have
> the skill to make those adjustments. And certainly have the skill to
> compensate for any oversight once the show has started.
I would expect that kind of expertise at that level. The last touring
company of Cats that came through Baltimore and the whole show was so muffled
that again, you couldn't understand anything that was being sung. My friend
(who had never seen the show before) didn't get much of the show until the
video came out (granted she's no rocket scientist) because she couldn't
hear. I pointed it out to the sound man
>
> >I also think it's too damn loud 90% of the time. When I have complained
> >to the sound guy, it has made no difference.
>
> Maybe other people are complaining that it is too soft.
Actually others made the same observation that he was often difficult to
understand. His mike seemed to be coming in VERY bright. My hearing is
still quite good, in spite of all those rock concerts in the 70's ;-)
>
> Working as a sound engineer is one of the more complicated jobs you
> can do on a musical. It's not as simple as turning it up or down.
> This doesn't excuse over loud productions, but do try to keep it in
> mind.
>
> If you don't like the color of the set, or the cut of the costumes,
> you don't ask them to change it to suit you. Why should the sound be
> any different?
You have no control over the sets or the costumes - those issues are
non-negotiable, whereas the sound is probably the only thing about a show
that is directly in your control. If the sound man knows he is getting
complaints from the audience and does not attempt to respond to those
observations, then he is doing the audience a disservice. What good is a
show you either have trouble hearing or go home with your ears ringing? (the
very reason why I refuse to see Rent).
Melanie
laneda...@my-deja.com
Bob Grabowski <bubs...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I've been attending Broadway musicals for the past 20+ years but in
> the past year, I've attended two shows that were deafendingly loud. I
> forgave Jesus Christ Superstar because I saw it in previews and
> figured that they were working on the sound before opening night. But
> on Saturday I saw The Music Man. The vocals were so overamplified that
> most of the words sung were unintelligible. Why is it necessary the
> vocalists so much? For me, it ruined what was otherwise, a very
> enjoyable show.
>
> Bob
up your orchestra seats-- Lane
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
laneda...@my-deja.com
dgi...@ix.netcom.com (David A. Gilman) wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:47:24 -0400, Bob Grabowski
> <bubs...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I've been attending Broadway musicals for the past 20+ years but in
> >the past year, I've attended two shows that were deafendingly loud. I
> >forgave Jesus Christ Superstar because I saw it in previews and
> >figured that they were working on the sound before opening night. But
> >on Saturday I saw The Music Man. The vocals were so overamplified
that
> >most of the words sung were unintelligible. Why is it necessary the
> >vocalists so much? For me, it ruined what was otherwise, a very
> >enjoyable show.
> >
> >Bob
>
> audience of a musical wants it to sound like the cast recording CD
> does in their living room. Sound designers design systems to do this,
> and sound engineers mix the show that way. AND PEOPLE PAY TO SEE IT.
> The producers feel vindicated in their feeling, and the cycle
> continues.
>
> That's the general reason that musicals are so loud. There are
> obviously specific reasons, from everything that the director feels
> the way show sounds is the way it should sound, to the sound engineer
> doing what he wants regardless of what the designer had intended.
>
> David A. Gilman
> Sound Engineer, CATS
>
> David,how right you are!If Music Man is like the cd,then i understand
Matthew Winn
<mro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There may have been foot mikes, but my early theater memories (and I'm not that
> old) are hearing the actual voice and not something coming out of speakers.
Some of my favourite performances have been when someone's mic has
failed and the whole show has been turned down to match: all the cast
singing almost unamplified, and the orchestra at a reasonable level
(i.e. not shaking my teeth out of their sockets). Voices sound so
much better without the distortion of the amplification.
One of my most horrifying experiences as far as sound is concerned was
seeing (or hearing) a cast at the tiny Jermyn Street Theatre fully
wired up. This is a theatre that's about 8 metres (if that) from the
rear of the stage to the rear of the auditorium. You can damn near
hear someone breathing across that distance.
Matthew
David A. Gilman
wrote:
>You have no control over the sets or the costumes - those issues are
>non-negotiable, whereas the sound is probably the only thing about a show
>that is directly in your control. If the sound man knows he is getting
>complaints from the audience and does not attempt to respond to those
>observations, then he is doing the audience a disservice. What good is a
>show you either have trouble hearing or go home with your ears ringing? (the
>very reason why I refuse to see Rent).
That's like saying if you don't like the way a show is acted, you can
go to the actor at intermission and complain, and they can change it.
Is the actor doing a disservice to the audience if everyone hates the
way he is doing something (an accent, a character trait) and doesn't
change it?
Sound doesn't just happen, and a show doesn't sound the way it does
arbitrarily.
Someone (who, incidentally, still doesn't receive a Tony award for his
work), designed the sound of the show you are seeing. Right now,
someone is sitting somewhere, expecting that show to sound the same
way every night. Just like the director wants to show to be performed
the same every night.
It is, of course, live theatre. Things change and get adjusted.
Presuming that since you have access to the sound engineer means that
you have some control is ludicrous.
--
David A. Gilman
Sound Engineer - CATS
Melanie Lynch
>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:07:25 GMT, Marcia Rovins
> <mro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > There may have been foot mikes, but my early theater memories (and I'm not that
> > old) are hearing the actual voice and not something coming out of speakers.
>
> Some of my favourite performances have been when someone's mic has
> failed and the whole show has been turned down to match: all the cast
> singing almost unamplified, and the orchestra at a reasonable level
> (i.e. not shaking my teeth out of their sockets). Voices sound so
> much better without the distortion of the amplification.
Exactly! I sing on the weekends using a hand mike that I drop down to
about 6 inches from my mouth because it would be easy to overpower the
mike. Every so often (when the room isn't real noisy) several of us
drop the mike completely. It forces you to use all of your voice,. The
audience hears parts of the voice you don't use when it's amplified and
they can hear the difference. I got so used to singing with a mike for
so long that when I went back to my voice teacher I really had to shift
gears and relearn techniques I had forgotten because the mike allowed me
to get lazy.
Melanie
Melanie Lynch
"David A. Gilman" wrote:
>
> That's like saying if you don't like the way a show is acted, you can
> go to the actor at intermission and complain, and they can change it.
> Is the actor doing a disservice to the audience if everyone hates the
> way he is doing something (an accent, a character trait) and doesn't
> change it?
No, I don't feel that's an accurate analogy - that creates the product.
It is within the power of of the sound engineer (who I am assuming keeps
an eye on the lighting cues and effects that are programmed into the
board) to deliver the show in a manner that can be easily perceived by
the audience. I would think it is ultimately your responsibility to be
sure that everyone on stage is audible to the audience with the
realization that there are hearing disabilities.
>
> Sound doesn't just happen, and a show doesn't sound the way it does
> arbitrarily.
I understand that very well
> Someone (who, incidentally, still doesn't receive a Tony award for his
> work), designed the sound of the show you are seeing. Right now,
> someone is sitting somewhere, expecting that show to sound the same
> way every night. Just like the director wants to show to be performed
> the same every night.
>
> It is, of course, live theatre. Things change and get adjusted.
> Presuming that since you have access to the sound engineer means that
> you have some control is ludicrous.
I don't expect the sound engineer to correct things on feedback from one
person. When he gets a group of people pointing out the same problem,
however, that should be an indication that there is something that needs
attention. To ignore that because someone who is not in the house
designed the show to be done in a certain way, you are saying that the
audience be damned.
Perhaps I have erred in my perception. I thought I was spending $70+ per
ticket to be able to hear and see everything that happens on stage. I
guess I shouldn't feel somehow disappointed when I pay that much and am
only able to hear a portion of a production. Perhaps I should show up
with a script in my hand the next time I go to a show just in case there
is someone's speech I can't hear. I somehow don't think I should have to
work that hard while spending that kind of money.
Melanie
John Ross
David A. Gilman <dgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message > Someone (who,
incidentally, still doesn't receive a Tony award for his
[snip]
> work), designed the sound of the show you are seeing. Right now,
> someone is sitting somewhere, expecting that show to sound the same
> way every night. Just like the director wants to show to be performed
> the same every night.
[snip]
>
> It is, of course, live theatre. Things change and get adjusted
[snip]
I hope I haven't misrepresented the above post, but despite the generally
high level of professionalism in B'way production personnel, I have seen
"Miss Saigon" at the Broadway Theatre when the sound guy was just ... off!
In addition to a generally spotty show, the relative levels of orchestra,
people screaming and helicopter were just ... screwed up at one perf. I
asked him about it after the show and got a fairly curt response to the
effect that he'd been doing the show for three years and knew what he was
doing. 'Fraid not -- at least not that night!
I agree in general about the unnaturally high level and "bright" (strident?)
sound quality of many musicals in New York theatres, but I've also heard
some that were done extraordinarily well. I think directors are sometimes
bulldogged into believing that "today's audiences" want everything as loud
as it sounds "at home." On the road, it's generally more of a crap
shoot -- particularly in giant theatres like the Atlanta Fox, pretty as it
is! Of course, the Fox is around three times the size of even the larger
B'way houses. On the other hand, I've also strained to hear an unamplified
Merman from the cheap seats at the same Broadway Theatre where Saigon is
playing, and I prefer well designed and controlled sound reinforcement!
Don't know why I'm so chatty tonight...
John
Lorin
1. The sound man was 15 minutes late for a one hour sound check in a
difficult hall.
2. The actors told him they were having trouble hearing themselves and
the orch. He said it sounded fine. It didn't. It was almost inaudible.
3. After the sound check, the conductor asked me how it sounded (I was
in the house) I told him that it sounded like the mikes were not on.
4. An hour later the curtain went up before the opening night crowd.
The musical in question starts with a trumpet solo. It sounded like it
was being played from the dressing rooms.
5. The curtain rose. The actors could not be heard over the soft
orchestra underscoring.
6. After about 2 minutes of this someone in the audience shouted
"sound". The sound man finally relented and turned the actors' mikes
up just loud enough so that they could be heard part of the time. He
never did adjust the orchestra's sound.
7. This went on all week and the audience complained to the ushers all
week.
8 Later, I found it that it was the mixer's last week.
The sound of a show isn't always the way the sound designer would
prefer. I have seen a director stand at the console and give the sound
designer/mixer directions during previews. I also once saw a mixer and
a director have a heated argument because of this DURING a preview.
Both of the above stories happened at professional theatres.
My concern with the sound of shows (in addition to the often excessive
volume) is that many of the mixers (not the designers) have come up
through the electronic end of the business and their primary musical
experiences have been rock music. Listening to the amplified sound of
many theatre orchestras, I have to conclude that the person at the
board doesn't know what an acoustic instrument is supposed to sound
like.
What do think David?
LG
Stephen Farrow
> One of my most horrifying experiences as far as sound is concerned was
> seeing (or hearing) a cast at the tiny Jermyn Street Theatre fully
> wired up. This is a theatre that's about 8 metres (if that) from the
> rear of the stage to the rear of the auditorium. You can damn near
> hear someone breathing across that distance.
Ugh. Yes. I saw Donna McKechnie's one-woman show there, and while she
was terrific, she really didn't need to be miked (which she was). I was
sitting about 6 feet from her. She wasn't singing over a rock band, and
it's certainly not as if she doesn't know how to sing - hers isn't the
most spectacular voice I've ever heard, but she's got a pretty wide
range and she knows how to use it.
On the other hand, I still shudder at the memory of Adrian Lester's
unmiked performance in the Donmar Warehouse "Company". I was sitting
about the same distance away (second row), and he was all but inaudible.
Which is not an argument for amplification, by the way - it's an
argument for casting people who can sing above a whisper.
Stephen
>
> Matthew
--
Will men ever get pregnant? And if they do, will they opt for
shoulder-tie dungarees, or play safe with Peter Pan collar-type loose
smocks? Whatever they decide, there's bound to be a documentary about
it. And possibly a tea towel.
- Victoria Wood
David A. Gilman
<mel...@chardonnay.org> wrote:
>"David A. Gilman" wrote:
>>
>> That's like saying if you don't like the way a show is acted, you can
>> go to the actor at intermission and complain, and they can change it.
>> Is the actor doing a disservice to the audience if everyone hates the
>> way he is doing something (an accent, a character trait) and doesn't
>> change it?
>
>No, I don't feel that's an accurate analogy - that creates the product.
>It is within the power of of the sound engineer (who I am assuming keeps
>an eye on the lighting cues and effects that are programmed into the
>board) to deliver the show in a manner that can be easily perceived by
>the audience. I would think it is ultimately your responsibility to be
>sure that everyone on stage is audible to the audience with the
>realization that there are hearing disabilities.
No, it is ultimately my responsibility to make the show sound the way
the sound designer wants it to. Period. Just like it is an actor's
responsibility to act the show the way the director wants them to.
If the sound designer wants the show to be loud, it will be loud.
It's not within my purview to decide to turn it down because the
audience want it to be softer.
And I still don't understand why my analogy is inaccurate.
>I don't expect the sound engineer to correct things on feedback from one
>person. When he gets a group of people pointing out the same problem,
>however, that should be an indication that there is something that needs
>attention. To ignore that because someone who is not in the house
>designed the show to be done in a certain way, you are saying that the
>audience be damned.
Which is what directors do when they direct a show that everyone
hates. You assume that the sound of the show is a service (like the
seats being comfortable) as opposed to an artistic element of the
show.
>Perhaps I have erred in my perception. I thought I was spending $70+ per
>ticket to be able to hear and see everything that happens on stage. I
>guess I shouldn't feel somehow disappointed when I pay that much and am
>only able to hear a portion of a production. Perhaps I should show up
>with a script in my hand the next time I go to a show just in case there
>is someone's speech I can't hear. I somehow don't think I should have to
>work that hard while spending that kind of money.
Do you feel disappointed when you see a show and you don't like it?
What about when you see a show and it just isn't very good? Why are
you not rallying to change those aspects of a show?
Of course the design elements of a show have to serve needs - you need
to be able to see the actors, you need to be able to understand the
period from the set and costumes, etc. However, these are no
different then the needs a script or director needs to fulfill.
David A. Gilman
<mel...@chardonnay.org> wrote:
>Exactly! I sing on the weekends using a hand mike that I drop down to
>about 6 inches from my mouth because it would be easy to overpower the
>mike. Every so often (when the room isn't real noisy) several of us
>drop the mike completely. It forces you to use all of your voice,. The
>audience hears parts of the voice you don't use when it's amplified and
>they can hear the difference. I got so used to singing with a mike for
>so long that when I went back to my voice teacher I really had to shift
>gears and relearn techniques I had forgotten because the mike allowed me
>to get lazy.
Why don't you just sing as loud as you should for the part and let the
sound engineer adjust accordingly? Unless you are belting some pretty
heavy stuff, you won't overpower the microphone, and if you are, then
you should be using a different mic.
--
David A. Gilman
Sound Engineer - CATS
PS - The short form of microphone is mic.
PPS - Don Davis, inventor of the graphic equalizer (among other
things) once said - "If bad sound could kill, we'd all be dead"
David A. Gilman
wrote:
<SNIP - How the sound isn't always the way the designer wants it to be
because humans are involved>
I agree completely with you, Lorin. Sound engineers often times
completely destroy a designer's intention. OFten times, they are
assisted by directors and producers.
This, however, does not change the fact sound, like any other element
of a production, is intentional, and just because you are unhappy with
it does not mean it should change so you like it.
It is that sentiment (ie - I told the sound guy it was too loud, and
he didn't do anything) that I am rallying against.
laneda...@my-deja.com
> wrote:
> >You have no control over the sets or the costumes - those issues are
> >non-negotiable, whereas the sound is probably the only thing about a
show
> >that is directly in your control. If the sound man knows he is
getting
> >complaints from the audience and does not attempt to respond to those
> >observations, then he is doing the audience a disservice. What good
is a
> >show you either have trouble hearing or go home with your ears
ringing? (the
> >very reason why I refuse to see Rent).
>
> go to the actor at intermission and complain, and they can change it.
> Is the actor doing a disservice to the audience if everyone hates the
> way he is doing something (an accent, a character trait) and doesn't
> change it?
>
> arbitrarily.
>
> someone is sitting somewhere, expecting that show to sound the same
> way every night. Just like the director wants to show to be performed
> the same every night.
>
> Presuming that since you have access to the sound engineer means that
> you have some control is ludicrous.
>
> David A. Gilman
> Sound Engineer - CATS
>
you're skill and knowledge is obvious.I'm really tired of people out
there saying that they hate Cats-- I see it for what it is- a dancing
show and I don't mind that at all.How long have you been with the show
and what show will you work on after Cats closes? Also,did you work on
the recording also?
Regards, Lane
Lorin
Gilman) wrote:
>This, however, does not change the fact sound, like any other element
>of a production, is intentional, and just because you are unhappy with
>it does not mean it should change so you like it.
>
>It is that sentiment (ie - I told the sound guy it was too loud, and
>he didn't do anything) that I am rallying against.
>
I worked on Tommy at the La Jolla Playhouse. One night I was standing
at the mixing board during intermission (I am not in sound design or
mixing). The older members of the audience were complaining to the
mixer (asst. designer, I think) that it was too loud. The younger
members were complaining that it was not loud enough.
LG
Melanie Lynch
> Why don't you just sing as loud as you should for the part and let the
> sound engineer adjust accordingly? Unless you are belting some pretty
> heavy stuff, you won't overpower the microphone, and if you are, then
> you should be using a different mic.
The "sound engineer" is also the piano player - not everyone is blessed with
techies. When I do a show it is a different story. Then we have a soundboard
to work with. The weekend gig is a fairly primitive setup in a bar with
lots of noise and questionable acoustics, although we do have an
appreciative audience. While he may be a pretty amazing pianist, both he
and I prefer when he keeps his mind on the keyboard. On any given night you
will hear just about anything, from ballads, belts, pop standards, and a
smattering of opera. There is not a lot of leaway on that particular sound
scene.
Melanie
David A. Gilman
<mro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>There may have been foot mikes, but my early theater memories (and I'm not that
>old) are hearing the actual voice and not something coming out of speakers.
>
>Marcia
Here's an interesting fact - if I do it (amplification) right, I can
amplify the actor's voice, and you'll still think it's coming from
him. Obviously this has it's limits, and it isn't an easy thing to
do. But with small to medium amplification, it can be done.
So did you hear the actual voice, or just think you did?
JCTravis
(strident?)
> sound quality of many musicals in New York theatres, but I've also heard
> some that were done extraordinarily well. I think directors are sometimes
> bulldogged into believing that "today's audiences" want everything as loud
> as it sounds "at home." On the road, it's generally more of a crap
There's a big difference between "loud" and "powerful". The sound should be
able to blast you *selectively* when necessary, but I agree that constant
high-decibels are bad. I know theatres that have sound pretty much from a
single source turned up loud. Others have many smaller speakers spread
around the theatre, which are at lower volume but help comprehension. All
in the designer's skill.
jo...@johnsibley.com
searching for something totally unrelated. (Hi David!) Heck, I never
even read usenet. Nonetheless and against somewhat of my
better judgement, I'm going to chime in on this one.
I feel like an AA Meeting: My name is John, and I'm a sound
engineer. Specifically, I'm the head of sound for the national tour of
Cabaret.
In article <394FAFBB...@cbmmag.net>,
mel...@chardonnay.org wrote:
> That doesn't excuse overdoing the sound to the extent that the
voices are
> so distorted you can't understand what they were saying, as was
the case
> with Cabaret's Emcee in Baltimore On Sunday. If he sang you
could mostly
> make out the lyrics (truly I think that knowing them helped a lot)
but
> when he spoke you understood perhaps half of what he was
saying. I didn't
> seem to have that problem with anyone else - only the Emcee.
Well, it's somewhat comforting to know that you didn't have the
problem with anyone else. :) I'll address this issue in two parts: the
horror that is the Morris Mechanic theater, and then the problems
that relate to the Emcee specifically.
I hope the architect that designed the Mechanic got his check in
advance. From my perspective as an engineer it's a disaster: a
small, highly reflective concrete room with the acoustic signature
of a high school gym. Intelligibility is very poor to begin with. In a
fistfight between acoustics and electronics, acoustics usually win.
You have to work within the parameters of the performance space.
Additionally, the stage is *very* close to the audience and very well
coupled to the room acoustically speaking. This is great for a
straight play but horrible for Cabaret, with an on-stage band that
sometimes kicks quite loud. The first thing I did in the house was
to cut the band mix down to just enough to keep drums (which are
behind baffles) and strings in the mix. In the louder numbers, it
can be a struggle to keep vocals comfortably on top of the band
without any band amplification at all: the audience is essentially
sitting in the pit.
All right, so that's the acoustic situation. Now, on to other issues:
due to limited load-in time it is standard industry practice for
touring shows to use the house-owned cluster (a flown group of
speakers that covers the balcony), augmented with pieces of my
own system. The house cluster in the Mechanic is a design that
dates back to the late 1970s, assisted by studio control-room
speakers of the same era dropped in to cover some problem
areas. It wasn't a very good design then and it just looks plain silly
now. The largest problem with it is pattern control: when you're
running it loud enough to get good coverage in the balcony, the
people sitting directly under it on the orchestra level get a large
dose of leakage - they're not in the pattern of the speaker (not
pointed at them) so it's not anything intelligible or useful, it just
ends up being noise. The only solution for this is to run the
speakers covering the orchestra level loud enough to mask this
junk coming from directly above you - which you have to do anyway
to compete with the massive acoustic potential of the extremely
close band! Believe me, I felt very sorry for the people sitting in the
first three rows - I felt it was immensely loud. I also didn't have
much of a choice - hearing loud vocals beats not hearing 'em at
all.
The HVAC system is poor and extremely noisy. When the AC is on,
two people on-stage 3 feet apart would have trouble with a low
conversation. The room also fluctuates *wildly* in temperature and
humidity, which has a direct effect on the sound. I'll get into the
physics in a later post if you wish, but suffice it to say for now that
when the room is warm and humid the sound will have much
more low end and when it is cold and dry it will seem much crisper
and sharper. The temperature routinely fluctuates by 15 degrees
during a show at the mix position.
Finally and most importantly, the FOH mixer in the Mechanic is
tucked into a small airless low-ceiling concrete cutout in the rear of
the orchestra area that doesn't sound anything like the rest of the
room. At all. I had to add special coverage for the mix position to
approximate the sound of the show, but it's never perfect: as
tempting as it is for producers to save the worst seats for the mix
position, the show sounds much better when I hear it in the blend
that the bulk of the audience does. (The Mechanic is pretty bad, but
it gets worse: at the Fox in Atlanta, I'm mixing the show from a
space that acoustically speaking is part of the lobby. I can't hear
the show *at all* and am mixing from a pair of speakers that sit on
the console that approximate the sound of the room. This is an
imperfect solution at best, the ideal is for the mixer to be in a place
where they can hear the show as the audience does.)
So those are the issues facing the Mechanic. It's a pretty poor
room for sound, definitely in my bottom 5 in America thus far. If it's
any comfort, it's poorly designed all over: lighting bleeds all over
the place due to the proximity of the audience to backlight and the
fact that it's all unpainted concrete, which reflects light like crazy.
It's an extremely difficult load-in situation with serious access
issues - just a poorly designed space overall.
Now, onto the issues that face the Emcee specifically - much of
his dialogue is dynamic, fast, with a German accent, and most
importantly..... spoken during play-outs, with a full band kicking
behind him. You can't keep the band down in that house, all you
can do is fight to get him up. Additionally, there are places (at least
2 major ones) where he is intentionally mixed down (buried, if you
will) into the playout. I don't make those decisions and don't have
the power to change 'em. The Emcee is also cursed with one of
the most difficult songs in musical theatre: Money. A patter song
sung in canon; one man on one part, six girls on the other part,
thick orchestration, difficult choreography. It's a nearly impossible
formula.
> I wonder, too, how much of it has to do with the fact that sound
checks
> are done with an empty house and it is an art to compensate for
bodies.
Sure, that's part of it... but after a few years of this, you get pretty
good at making a good guess at what the room will do with bodies
in it. It's only going to help you, humans make great sound
absorbers and can only help to calm a room that is very reflective.
Unfortunately, sometimes my job comes down to making the best
of a bad situation. The only yardstick I have to measure my
performance in any house is comments from the house staff, who
see every show that come through and have an idea of the
benchmark, and complaints from the audience. Baltimore was no
complaints and the house staff was complimentary. It's a really,
really tough room - but the fact that there were no audience
complaints means to me that I'm doing better than average for that
space.
Now, if I might add a few musings on the original subject: sound is
loud on B'way (and in the movie theater, and on TV....) because the
public demands it. Period. Now, it's very much a matter of personal
taste and in any audience I'm somebody's hero and somebody's
goat, but we as a culture have forgotten how to listen critically.
Gone are the days where you could do an unamplified straight play
and the audience would sit in silence and *actively* listen, and
most importantly.... not expect to catch every word. Today's
audience, raised on rock and roll, movies, and television, expects
every word at living-room listening level. They don't want to listen
critically and they do not respect the need for quiet (don't get me
started on candy wrappers, hearing-aid feedback, or coughers!)
We're also dealing with a higher noise floor imposed by lighting
technology (every one of those gee-whiz moving lights has a fan in
it!), actors cast without concern to projection ability, and
orchestrations done without regard to the vocal. I once had to
explain to a very famous composer why I couldn't make the star
heard over the on-stage band - there was a trumpet doubling the
vocal line. She was essentially a walking trumpet mic - it drowned
out her voice at her own mic. Finally, we have the elderly, who
make up a very significant portion of the modern theatre-going
audience and aren't afraid to complain when their hearing aid is
working overtime, and producers/directors, who want it loud.
(Especially producers - I cringe every time a producer asks me to
run a show louder when he's standing 8 feet behind the console,
waaaay outside of the audience area. But he signs my check.)
Having said all this, I agree with you - it is too loud, generally. For
me especially, as I consider the ideal of theatre to be a totally
transparent sound design - where you can hear everything, but you
can't tell it's amplified. This, unfortunately, is the holy grail. I've
heard pretty close, but no cigar yet. Every show I have ever done
has started out at a reasonable volume. Every show I have ever
done has had a producer or director or both ask for the show to be
louder, usually against the wishes of the sound designer. The
director wants excitement and energy, the producer just wants the
bluehairs not to complain.
So I'm with ya on this one. But I do understand *why* it's so loud.
> I also think it's too damn loud 90% of the time. When I have
complained
> to the sound guy, it has made no difference.
Never hesitate to go speak to the sound person about any issue.
You paid good money, you deserve to hear. (And just as a general
rule, we're usually pretty approachable if you come to us nicely!) I
can't guarantee that you will hear an instant change/fix to your
specific complaint - sometimes, there are no simple solutions
(and sometimes, the solution can't happen until after the show!).
What I can guarantee is that I take every audience comment,
complaint or compliment with the utmost seriousness and that I or
my assistant will go to the exact area you are sitting in, listen to
what is going on, and judge what to do. I have actually added
speakers in problem areas when audience members have
commented on it - I can't sit in every seat in the house during a one
hour soundcheck, and sometimes I miss problem areas,
especially if they're small. Without audiences, I have no job. We
take you seriously.
[Side note: as a touring engineer I have a much wider lattitude to
fix/play than a Broadway NYC engineer. As a B'way engineer, your
job is to maintain the show exactly as the designer left it. As a
touring engineer, it is to adapt the design as appropriate to the
house.]
My lord, I'm writing a freakin' novel here. Can you tell this is a
subject near and dear to my heart, not to mention my wallet? Gotta
get off the soapbox before it breaks!
-J
Head Sound
Cabaret National Tour
J1514
reinforcement for an amateur?
J
"You get what you deserve, whether you deserve it or not."
Days & Nights Of Molly Dodd
Flight
in a little too loud, these babies are a quick fix. Also
a pretty good cure for people that like to chat thru the
whole play. In that situation, I'm happy for a loud speaker,
it drowns out the morons who continue to talk and
banter about each scene.
The other comment is the excellence of the sound
system at the Wang in Boston. I dont think I have
ever heard a better system in my life. I happened
to say hi to the Sound Engineer after a performance,
and complemented him on the show, and he was
very pleasant, telling me about the EAW speakers,
and Crown amp. Anybody like to vote on the
theater with the best sound system?
good day to all...
Romey777
>it drowns out the morons who continue to talk and
>banter about each scene.
I saw "Macbeth" on Broadway last night, which (not being a musical) didn't have
a lot of 'sound' - unfortunately. During much of the first half, I could hear
what sounding like a transistor radio. I'm pretty sure it was chatter leaking
from the headset of a follow-spot operator, or maybe from the headset of the
person at the console in the box (I wasn't sure if it was lights or sound, or
both, and didn't think to look closer afterwards). Unfortunately, there was no
intermission, so I couldn't lodge a complaint anywhere. I know it gets dull
for operators to sit through the same show night after night, but at least a
third of the balcony could hear it - other people kept looking over to see
where it was coming from too.
Flight
> unfortunately. During much of the first half, I could hear
>what sounding like a transistor radio. I'm pretty sure it was chatter
>leaking
>from the headset of a follow-spot operator,
choked up 50 or 60 bucks to try to enjoy a play,and
be able to concentrate on the actors. That is
a controlable technical issue that should not
occur.
I would have said something, even after the
performance, I'm sure those people would not want
their headphones to disturb the audience, they
are interested in the audience's enjoyment of the show.
I do have to say, for the most part, most shows
I have been to, everything is enjoyable, but like
a bad neighbor, it only takes one or two nearby people
to become a distraction, and ruin the show for anyone
sitting closeby, or within earshot. But, I wouldnt dare
go to a show without my trusty earplugs, those
are absolutely essential these days. They are foam,
and dont block sounds completely, just attenuate,
then I can play with them and have them block out
sound to a level I find comfortable. I would recommend
these heartily.
regards,
Thomas Lee
the curtain went up as the orchestra started the overture onstage (I hope
reporting that bit of staging isn't a spoiler for anyone). It wasn't
until "Seventy-Six Trombones" (approximately 20 minutes into the show)
that my ears adjusted to the sound level. Another problem--common to most
over-miked musicals these days--is the lack of direction in sound
design...during "The Music Man" there were several moments when I couldn't
figure out WHO was singing.
In article <42mtkssla8f706r0g...@4ax.com>, Bob Grabowski
egam...@my-deja.com
ever I go to the theatre if the theatre has Assisted Listening devices,
I get them. Actually for two reasons 1.) So I don't have to listen to
Marge and June Public's critique of the show (yes they are that rude).
and 2) I can control the volume of what I hear. That might be a
solution for you too.
In article <42mtkssla8f706r0g...@4ax.com>,
Bob Grabowski <bubs...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I've been attending Broadway musicals for the past 20+ years but in
> the past year, I've attended two shows that were deafendingly loud. I
> forgave Jesus Christ Superstar because I saw it in previews and
> figured that they were working on the sound before opening night. But
> on Saturday I saw The Music Man. The vocals were so overamplified that
> most of the words sung were unintelligible. Why is it necessary the
> vocalists so much? For me, it ruined what was otherwise, a very
> enjoyable show.
>
> Bob
>
jo...@johnsibley.com
> I saw "Macbeth" on Broadway last night, which (not being a
musical) didn't have
> a lot of 'sound' - unfortunately. During much of the first half, I
could hear
> what sounding like a transistor radio. I'm pretty sure it was
chatter leaking
> from the headset of a follow-spot operator, or maybe from the
headset of the
> person at the console in the box (I wasn't sure if it was lights or
Could also be a patron with their hearing-assist headset set on
"stun" - THAT drives me insane!
Marc Salzberg
David Lewis wrote:
> I suppose the other problem is that the sound engineers are so deaf that
> to hear what is being offered needs to be loud!
Wrong. The soundman does what the director wants. Period. If the artistic
staff wants is loud, then it's loud. If they want it quiet, that's the way
it is.
Marc Salzberg
Marc Salzberg
"David A. Gilman" wrote:
>
> Working as a sound engineer is one of the more complicated jobs you
> can do on a musical. It's not as simple as turning it up or down.
> This doesn't excuse over loud productions, but do try to keep it in
> mind.
>
One of the hardest things about sound is that at every performance, there are
1,000 people who know how to do your job better that you.
Marc Salzberg
Production Soundman, "Contact," "Marie Christine," "Parade," et al.
Marc Salzberg
Pizzaman95 wrote:
> They are so loud to drown out the candy wrappers!
And cell phones.
Marc Salzberg
Marc Salzberg
Marcia Rovins wrote:
> There may have been foot mikes, but my early theater memories (and I'm not that
> old) are hearing the actual voice and not something coming out of speakers.
Well, when you have foot mikes, the sound still comes out of speakers. Now, I've
only been at this for 22 years, but I worked with the original sound man from the
original production of "Hello, Dolly!" and I've worked with the original sound man
for the original "Fiddler." So I can tell you that you've been hearing speaker
since at least 1965.
Marc Salzberg
Marc Salzberg
I'm copying your entire message on the end of this. Everyone who read
John's message, read it again! I've played the Mechanic, and let me tell
you, there's a reason it's going to get torn down. (John, is Joe Hesley
still at the Mechanic? If so, please tell him I said "hi." Tell him Marc
from "Lend Me a Tenor" and "Forever Plaid.")
For those who didn't read John's message, read it below! Better than I
could have said it.
Marc Salzberg
Romey777
>"stun" - THAT drives me insane!
That was my first thought too - but I began to notice that there was *more*
noise during quite parts on stage, that the noise didn't seem to coincide with
dialogue or anything, so it seemed not to be a headset. I guess I would also
have been more into complaining if the show weren't closing this week...
jo...@johnsibley.com
> I'm copying your entire message on the end of this. Everyone
who read
> John's message, read it again! I've played the Mechanic, and let
me tell
> you, there's a reason it's going to get torn down. (John, is Joe
Hesley
> still at the Mechanic? If so, please tell him I said "hi." Tell him
Nope, it's Steve Kicas now. Apperantly they go through house
engineers pretty fast. Wonder why. :)
jo...@johnsibley.com
> I'm copying your entire message on the end of this. Everyone
who read
> John's message, read it again! I've played the Mechanic, and let
me tell
> you, there's a reason it's going to get torn down. (John, is Joe
Hesley
> still at the Mechanic? If so, please tell him I said "hi." Tell him
Nope, it's Steve Kicas now. Apperantly they go through house
engineers pretty fast. Wonder why. :)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Marc Salzberg
jo...@johnsibley.com wrote:
> Nope, it's Steve Kicas now. Apperantly they go through house
> engineers pretty fast. Wonder why. :)
>
Well, Joe was there for a few years. Nice guy.
Marc Salzberg
jo...@johnsibley.com
I didn't actually address the specific complaint. So, moving on!
> That doesn't excuse overdoing the sound to the extent that the
voices are
> so distorted you can't understand what they were saying, as was
the case
> with Cabaret's Emcee in Baltimore On Sunday. If he sang you
could mostly
> make out the lyrics (truly I think that knowing them helped a lot)
but
> when he spoke you understood perhaps half of what he was
saying. I didn't
> seem to have that problem with anyone else - only the Emcee.
I'm fairly positive that distortion is not the correct word here, in the
technical sense. Distortion is the sound produced when you are
driving an amplifier at some stage past it's power potential,
resulting in a "clipped", or squared-off, wave. I believe she was
trying to express that the MC was, to her, harsh and strident...
which he was, in certain areas of the house, due to factors I laid
out in my post. Only him because he has by far the widest dynamic
range in the show, he's the only one to (attempt to) shout his way
over play-outs, and his voice is quite peaky in the upper mids
when he's blasting away at any rate. But I'm pretty confident that
the system didn't distort according to the actual definition of the
word - that I'd hear a mile away.
I'm now very curious to find out where Melanie was sitting!
-J
David Lawver
> searching for something totally unrelated. (Hi David!) Heck, I never
> even read usenet. Nonetheless and against somewhat of my
> better judgement, I'm going to chime in on this one.
>
> I feel like an AA Meeting: My name is John, and I'm a sound
> engineer. Specifically, I'm the head of sound for the national tour of
> Cabaret.
THIS is why I love Usenet!! Thanks, John... I'm saving your post both
to come back to myself as a sound designer and as a clear exposition of
the problems involved to use as explanatory material.
The problems you lay out are epidemic. Coupled with the lack of respect
and recognition (why isn't there a Tony award, anyway???) they make the
job of the sound designer and engineers very, very hard. Add to that
orchestrators who don't do their jobs... (a TRUMPET doubling at
unison???
time was that orchestrators know how to score to support the voice and
let it through)... producers who think loud=good, performers who don't
know how to produce the voice to carry....
Thanks for sharing your professional expertise and insight.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lawver dmla...@facstaff.wisc.edu
"Paranoia can reduce security." --Nick Maclaren
Melanie Lynch
the board today. Thanks so much for your incredible, intelligent posts
on the Mechanic. I tend to see more shows at the Kennedy Center, with
they Lyric in Baltimore a distant second. Cabaret was the fourth time I
have been to the Mechanic - the first time was in '68 for the movie
Oliver! before it was renovated with all that concrete, then J&H a few
years ago and I was actually impressed with the renovations compared to
the run down nightmare it was 22 years ago. Last month was Les Mis
(orchestra Row F on the aisle). I didn't have any trouble hearing those
two shows. Cabaret was 2nd row 1st Mezz stage right on the aisle (a last
minute decision).
After outlining the acoustic nightmares in the Mechanic, now I am
getting nervous thinking about committing to a season subscription for
next year which will have Swing, Fosse and Ragtime (already seen it but
will see it over and over again wherever I can).
Melanie
===================
--
Melanie
Any typos are solely the responsibility of the cat, Sweeney Todd, the
demon cat of Monroe St.
rach...@aol.com
At a matinee of Jesus Christ Superstar in April, the family behind us
(in the dress circle) brought snacks. They actually had CANS OF SODA and
you could hear the popping of the pull tabs. But this behavior emanated
from the same group of individuals overheard commenting that "there
are no famous actors on Broadway...well, sometimes a famous actor will
finish up his or her career there..." I wanted to turn around and
scream "You mean AFTER the sitcom fails???"
crl...@columbia.edu
> I've been attending Broadway musicals for the past 20+ years but in
> the past year, I've attended two shows that were deafendingly loud. I
> forgave Jesus Christ Superstar because I saw it in previews and
> figured that they were working on the sound before opening night. But
> on Saturday I saw The Music Man. The vocals were so overamplified that
> most of the words sung were unintelligible. Why is it necessary the
> vocalists so much? For me, it ruined what was otherwise, a very
> enjoyable show.
>
> Bob
Cly Hale
levels for decades now and there is some evidence that it has a
relationship to lowered hearing ability in the average movie-goer.
I remember a discussion of this all the way back in the late 80s. If
movie theaters haven't done anything about it for such a long span of
time, , I don't see why musical theatre would do anything about it.
robertja...@hotmail.com
> I've been attending Broadway musicals for the past 20+ years but in
> the past year, I've attended two shows that were deafendingly loud. I
> forgave Jesus Christ Superstar because I saw it in previews and
> figured that they were working on the sound before opening night. But
> on Saturday I saw The Music Man. The vocals were so overamplified that
> most of the words sung were unintelligible. Why is it necessary the
> vocalists so much? For me, it ruined what was otherwise, a very
> enjoyable show.
>
> Bob
Something I never thought I'd be able to say, that remake of A Star is Born is very good! Play it loud, but of course that's more rock format.