Silly Fiddler on the roof question
Mark Bernstein
: In the dream-sequence song, where the grandmother is singing
: about how great Motel the tailor is, I could have sworn that she
: says he was named after her uncle, Mordechai. Is that right? If
: he was, wouldn't that mean that the bride and groom are related?
: Anyone know?
That's an interesting point, but I don't think it's much of a
problem. First, the character singing, if I recall correctly, is
Golde's grandmother. That means the connection may be as much as
four generations back (Tzeitel->Golde->?->Grandma->Mordechai's
sibling). Tzeitel and Motel would then be fourth cousins, not much
of a relationship. Second, Mordechai may have been Grandma's uncle
by marriage, so there may be no blood relationship at all. And
third, Anatevka is a small, isolated village, in an era with limited
transportation. There *has* to be a certain amount of inbreeding.
--
Mark Bernstein
ma...@erim.org
Karen Mercedes
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Ella wrote:
>
> This is a silly nitpicky question, but it has been in the back of my
> mind for a while:
>
> In the dream-sequence song, where the grandmother is singing
> about how great Motel the tailor is, I could have sworn that she
> says he was named after her uncle, Mordechai. Is that right? If
> he was, wouldn't that mean that the bride and groom are related?
> Anyone know?
That would depend on whether Mordechai was her uncle by marriage or by
blood. If by marriage, he would not be any kind of relation to her
granddaughter (except, again, by marriage). Even if by blood, this would
make him Tzeitel's great grand uncle. She does not, however, define what
Motel's relationship is to Mordechai, so it's impossible to tell what, if
any, blood relationship there might be between Tzeitel and Motel. Given
Anatevka was supposed to be small village, it is likely that they are
somehow related as distant cousins, but I'm not even sure there was a
taboo on first cousins marrying at that time in Jewish Russia; even if
there were, it doesn't sound like Motel and Tzeitel were anything like
first, or even second cousins, but were probably cousins through several
stages of "removal".
Karen Mercedes
merc...@access.digex.net
.sig glueing leaves to Grandma Tzeitel's family tree
Davi...@aol.com
>
>That's an interesting point, but I don't think it's much of a
>problem. First, the character singing, if I recall correctly, is
>Golde's grandmother. That means the connection may be as much as
>four generations back (Tzeitel->Golde->?->Grandma->Mordechai's
>sibling). Tzeitel and Motel would then be fourth cousins, not much
>of a relationship. Second, Mordechai may have been Grandma's uncle
>by marriage, so there may be no blood relationship at all. And
>third, Anatevka is a small, isolated village, in an era with limited
>transportation. There *has* to be a certain amount of inbreeding.
That inbreeding WOULD tend to explain the widespread dementia in Anatevka:)
I've done Fiddler twice (Motel and Perchik) and I never noticed that
connection before. Thanks.
David
Ella
>Um, not that connection. I was referring to the possible connection
>(relation) between Motel and Tzeidel. (The line in the dream about Motel
>being named after an uncle of Grandma Tzeidel) Of course, the relation may
>have been by marriage or not at all (They could have named him after a friend
>as oppposeed to a relative. Or Grandma Tzeidel could have just been taking
>credit for Motel being such a nice boy... Hey it was only a dream (and not
>even a real dream.)
That's why I this line always disturbed me. First of all, because
Tevye is trying to convince Golde that Motel is the better choice, and
I don't see how Tevye bringing that up (by having the grandmother say
it) would help. But, that's a minor plot point.
Second, I don't understand why it is there at all-- not for a rhyme,
the line rhymes with itself. Is it there to show how small the town
is? I'm pretty sure that saying Motel is named after Mordechai assumes
they are related, although distantly.
Well, thanks to everyone for answering.
Karen Mercedes
> I've done Fiddler twice (Motel and Perchik) and I never noticed that
> connection before. Thanks.
You forget, Perchik was the outsider -- not from Anatevka at all. The only
connection between him and Motel arose when each married one of Tevye's
daughters.
Karen Mercedes
merc...@access.digex.net
+--------------------------------------+
| .sig dancing the tango with Domingo. |
+--------------------------------------+
Davi...@aol.com
>
>> I've done Fiddler twice (Motel and Perchik) and I never noticed that
>> connection before. Thanks.
>
>You forget, Perchik was the outsider -- not from Anatevka at all. The only
>connection between him and Motel arose when each married one of Tevye's
>daughters.
>
>
Um, not that connection. I was referring to the possible connection
(relation) between Motel and Tzeidel. (The line in the dream about Motel
being named after an uncle of Grandma Tzeidel) Of course, the relation may
have been by marriage or not at all (They could have named him after a friend
as oppposeed to a relative. Or Grandma Tzeidel could have just been taking
credit for Motel being such a nice boy... Hey it was only a dream (and not
even a real dream.)
David
Adam Rubin
>In the dream-sequence song, where the grandmother is singing
>about how great Motel the tailor is, I could have sworn that she
>says he was named after her uncle, Mordechai. Is that right? If
>he was, wouldn't that mean that the bride and groom are related?
If you're remembering correctly, and I think you are, it doesn't
matter. They'd be distantly related enough for marriage to be
allowed. I was once informed by a rabbi that even marriages between
first cousins are allowed.
Adam
(whose grandparents were half-first-cousins)
Ashley Smith
mother is named after one of her mother's best friends.
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Ella wrote:
>
> This is a silly nitpicky question, but it has been in the back of my
> mind for a while:
>
> In the dream-sequence song, where the grandmother is singing
> about how great Motel the tailor is, I could have sworn that she
> says he was named after her uncle, Mordechai. Is that right? If
> he was, wouldn't that mean that the bride and groom are related?
> Anyone know?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ella
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majo...@world.std.com
> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE MUSICALS
>
Davi...@aol.com
>
>Second, I don't understand why it is there at all-- not for a rhyme,
>the line rhymes with itself. Is it there to show how small the town
>is? I'm pretty sure that saying Motel is named after Mordechai assumes
>they are related, although distantly.
Maybe the line came from the source material. I had a book of the Shalom
Alechem stories when I was a kid, but I don't remember if there was any
mention of this.
David
Davi...@aol.com
>
> True, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are related. My
>mother is named after one of her mother's best friends.
>
>
Isn't Jewish tradition to name a child after a deceased relative?
I know I'm named after an uncle who passed away ten years before I was born.
David Alan Zack
Michael M. O'Connor
: This is a silly nitpicky question, but it has been in the back of my
: mind for a while:
:
: In the dream-sequence song, where the grandmother is singing
: about how great Motel the tailor is, I could have sworn that she
: says he was named after her uncle, Mordechai. Is that right? If
: he was, wouldn't that mean that the bride and groom are related?
: Anyone know?
:
: Thanks,
:
: Ella
Don't mind me if I add another silly question to the heap... Doesn't
"named after" usually mean first name? Is it me, or are "Motel" and
"Mordechai" different names? If it is last name, does that mean grandma's
uncle is named Mordechai Kamzoil? Somehow all of this doesn't make sense
to me. Oh, well.
Michael
--
********************************************* "Oh the hoot owl she
* Michael M. O'Connor * hollers, and the
* moco...@mail.trincoll.edu * turtle dove moans. I'm
* http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~moconnor/ * a poor boy in trouble.
********************************************* I'm a long way from ********************************************* home." -Stewball, Tra.
Karen Mercedes
On 21 Sep 1995, Michael M. O'Connor wrote:
> Don't mind me if I add another silly question to the heap... Doesn't
> "named after" usually mean first name? Is it me, or are "Motel" and
> "Mordechai" different names? If it is last name, does that mean grandma's
> uncle is named Mordechai Kamzoil? Somehow all of this doesn't make sense
> to me. Oh, well.
One presumes that "Motel" is a diminutive form of "Mordechai", i.e., a
nickname.
Karen Mercedes
merc...@access.digex.net
.sig stuffing a kishka
David Weiner
> Don't mind me if I add another silly question to the heap... Doesn't
> "named after" usually mean first name? Is it me, or are "Motel" and
> "Mordechai" different names? If it is last name, does that mean grandma's
> uncle is named Mordechai Kamzoil? Somehow all of this doesn't make sense
> to me. Oh, well.
>
Being a non-practicing Jew, don't know if I can explain this too
well, but here goes --
When a Jewish baby is named after a late relative, that is the Hebrew
name they take, but the English one may be different, as long as it
begins with the same letter. Example: My sister was named after a
great-aunt, Golde (really!). So her Hebrew name is Golde. My mom had
several English names in mind: Gina, Goldie or Gail. She decided on
Gail, which became my sister's name. My Hebrew name is Duvid, after
my great-grandfather David and David became my English name.
In Motel's case, the Hebrew name was probably Mordeche (in English,
Mordecai), so any English name that began with M would have been OK:
Michael, perhaps; in his case, Motel. It's usually nice to try to keep the
English name close to the Hebrew one--Moshe, for example, would be Moses
in English. Since that name is kind of archaic, the closest
acceptable English name might be Morris.
Hope this is accurate -- working from old memory here.
Dave (Duvid)
elanah...@gmail.com
I was just looking up the subject of Mottel and Tzeitel being related. Fruma Sarah, the singer in the dream, aside from saying "They named him after my dear Uncle Mordechai" also says "I meant a tailor, Tevye, my great-grandchild."
Mottel is Fruma Sarah's great-grandchild.
Tzeitel is also Fruma Sarah's great-grandchild. We know this because when Tevye finishes telling Golde about the dream, Golde says, If my grandmother Tzeitel, may she rest in peace,took the trouble to come from the other world to tell us about the tailor all I can say is that it's for the best. It couldn't possibly be any better."
Individuals who share a great-parent are 2nd cousins. That is what Mottel and Tzeitel are to each other. Which would not be at all surprising in shtetl circumstances.
Mottel is a Yiddish nickname for the name Mordechai that appears in the Scroll of Esther.
elanah...@gmail.com
Individuals who share a great-grandparent are 2nd cousins. That is what Mottel and Tzeitel are to each other. Which would not be at all surprising in shtetl circumstances.