ALW BASHING!
John Baxindine
D CR0SBY (dcr...@aol.com) wrote:
: So Schoenburg is a great genius who never lifted anyone
: else's melody (even one of Pucinni's)?
: Listen to "Bring Him Home" from Les Mis, than "The Humming Song"
: I believe it is named, from Madame Butterfly. It's "Humming" something.
: Tell me where that melody came from first.
: David C
I realize that it has been a while since you wrote this, but I figured I'd respond
anyway.
I checked out the "Humming Chorus" from BUTTERFLY, and I think it's an exaggeration
to say that Schonberg "lifted" Puccini's melody. To be precise, he used six of the
same notes with a somewhat similar harmonic structure. In Puccini, the phrase was
a throwaway; the remainder of the "Humming Chorus" bears no resemblance to "Bring
Him Home." The fact that Schonberg used a musical quote from a famous opera is
hardly reason to call him a plagiarist.
On the other hand, I have never caught Lloyd Webber overtly copying either; but
I'm not an opera buff. I have heard (from an expert on opera) that much of PHANTOM
is lifted wholesale from various operas by Mozart and Verdi; I have no means of
testing the truth of that statement. I wish I had asked him for specific examples;
I will certainly try to find some.
I freely admit that as a fan of Schonberg and not of Lloyd Webber, I am somewhat
prejudiced in this manner. But I consider that the level of musical achievment in
LES MISERABLES (which goes considerably beyond surface level and is utterly
astonishing coming from a man who never had any musical training) can certainly
excuse a six-note borrowing from Puccini.
John Baxindine
thalia
baxi...@fas.harvard.edu (John Baxindine) wrote:
>D CR0SBY (dcr...@aol.com) wrote:
>: So Schoenburg is a great genius who never lifted anyone
>: else's melody (even one of Pucinni's)?
>: Listen to "Bring Him Home" from Les Mis, than "The Humming Song"
>: I believe it is named, from Madame Butterfly. It's "Humming" something.
>: Tell me where that melody came from first.
I checked out the "Humming Chorus" from BUTTERFLY, and I think it's
an exaggeration
>to say that Schonberg "lifted" Puccini's melody. To be precise, he used six of the
>same notes with a somewhat similar harmonic structure. In Puccini, the phrase was
>a throwaway; the remainder of the "Humming Chorus" bears no resemblance to "Bring
>Him Home." The fact that Schonberg used a musical quote from a famous opera is
>hardly reason to call him a plagiarist.
>On the other hand, I have never caught Lloyd Webber overtly copying either; but
>I'm not an opera buff. I have heard (from an expert on opera) that much of PHANTOM
>is lifted wholesale from various operas by Mozart and Verdi; I have no means of
>testing the truth of that statement. I wish I had asked him for specific examples;
>I will certainly try to find some.
>I freely admit that as a fan of Schonberg and not of Lloyd Webber, I am somewhat
>prejudiced in this manner. But I consider that the level of musical achievment in
>LES MISERABLES (which goes considerably beyond surface level and is utterly
>astonishing coming from a man who never had any musical training) can certainly
>excuse a six-note borrowing from Puccini.
>John Baxindine
I don't think anyone *deliberately* lifted anything. But as an
opera buff, I can tell you that IMO 'Bring him Home' is much more
reminiscent of the 'Humming Chorus' than anything in Phantom
is of anything by Puccini. Phantom is about opera, and revels
in its pastiche Mozart plots (Il Muto and Don Juan Triumphant)
and pastiche Puccino grandioseness. But the music is original,
despite echoes of other works. If ever such echoes were justified, it
is in POTO. They are not justified in Les Miz. To echo the 'Humming
Chorus' in Miss Saigon would have been justified, because it is
derived from MADAME BUTTERFLY. The final moments of MS do
contain an actual quote from the opera, but it is appropriate.
Sadly, I think MS is a rehash of Les Miz grafted onto an update
of the MADAME BUTTERFLY plot.
Thalia
DCrosby108
Thalia,
I did make that top quote, sometime ago. I think a year?
Whoever made the rest about Phantom and ALW stealing was not
me. The point I was making was that a lot of people like to blame Lloyd
Webber of lifting others work, when everyone knows that he doesn't.
But no one ever says anything about Schonberg when his most famous
song, Bring Him Home, sounds exactly like Puccini's Humming Chorus.
Talk about being hypocritical or bias. Just proves that some people hate
ALW for other personal reasons and just say that its just his music,
liars.
David
Christine Daae
At 15:47 17/10/96 GMT, you wrote:
>I checked out the "Humming Chorus" from BUTTERFLY, and I think it's an
exaggeration
>to say that Schonberg "lifted" Puccini's melody. To be precise, he used
six of the
>same notes with a somewhat similar harmonic structure. In Puccini, the
phrase was
>a throwaway; the remainder of the "Humming Chorus" bears no resemblance to
"Bring
>Him Home." The fact that Schonberg used a musical quote from a famous opera is
>hardly reason to call him a plagiarist.
Indeed it isn't; it's just that when ALW is accused of having the same six
notes as something else in a somewhat similar harmonic structure, he's
accused of plagiarism for it. I believe Mr Crosby was just pointing out the
hypocritical behaviour of so many of ALW's detractors, as they so often see
things as great crimes in him which they don't even notice in other people.
Christine
-----------------------------------------
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http://phantomopera.home.ml.org/
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LesT...@aol.com
Dear David,
You wrote (edited):
>> Whoever made the rest about Phantom and ALW stealing was not
>> me. The point I was making was that a lot of people like to
>> blame Lloyd Webber of lifting others work, when everyone
>> knows that he doesn't.
ignorance displayed in posts on this list. AND these are people
who often consider themselves experts on Musical Theatre; maybe
Theatre, but sure as hell NOT music. Those that remained awake
during Music Appreciation, Mus 101 or whatever it's called
these days, should have learned that virtually every great
composer throughout history has "borrowed" at the very least,
thematic material, if not entire movements from other composers,
rarely did they even bother to credit the source.
Folks just feel free to make accusations of plagiarism without
even knowing exactly what it (plagiarism) is. ANYTHING: melody,
rythm, harmony, key setting may be varied, and it's a whole new
thing. You can take ANY composer's music and find bits and
snatches of other peoples tunes.
>> But no one ever says anything about Schonberg when his most
>> famous song, Bring Him Home, sounds exactly like Puccini's
>> Humming Chorus.Talk about being hypocritical or bias.
No, just ignorant.
>> Just proves that some people hate ALW for other personal
>> reasons and just say that its just his music, liars.
Not necessarily. Most of us rarely see our own flaws David.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I get as irritated as you do, but then
I remember: "There is no accounting for taste.". There is also
no set of standards, other than social mores for those that
attend Musical Theatre. Because of the horrible system of
education we have in this country, only a very few self-motivated
people get any exposure to an arts oriented schooling. Too bad.
It's a generation kinda thing. The "Boosters" (folks born before
1946) would do anything to make a better life for their kids.
Music and Theatre were part of education.
The "Boomers", Born 1946 - 1964 only care about themselves and
their own problems. Success, left too little time for frivolity.
The "Busters", our current crop of youth, Born 1965 - 1984, have
to live with drugs, guns, and knives in school from primary on.
They are relegated to having to learn survival. No wonder "Rent"
is so popular.
Warmest Regards,
Les
"Love not what thou art, but only what thou may become."
- Don Miguel De Cervantes
DCrosby108
Thanks for your kind remarks Les.
I agree with everything you said. You stated my point a bit more
eloquently
than I did. But its still bias to say that "this composer -derived- his
tune based
on another's work, but that another composer's -derivative- is
plagiarized".
Those phrases mean two different things and its frustrating to composers.
David