Wildhorn....taking over Broadway
Alison Franck
Hey, I am not happy about this fact, but it seems to be his mission. I
spoke with someone who works with him and not only does he envision
himself as the new KING OF BROADWAY but ne has loads of other musicals
he's working on...
YIKES!!!
Someone save us!
(hey I kinda enjoyed PIMPERNELL, the newer version, I will admit that
but it was because of the stars and the new direction and book...I still
think Wildhorn's music, er, is cheesey pop yuck...I much prefer
Sondheim, Jason Robert Brown, and Jonathan Larson's RENT any day to
Wildhorn's drivel)
But, if this is the crap the public wants, I just hope that his future
projects are a vast improvement of the drek he currently has produced on
Bway.
J & H was the worst thing I have ever seen on Broadway...that includes
THE RED SHOES, OIL CITY SYMPHONY, CATS, CYRANO, CAPEMAN, BLOOD BROTHERS
and the awful recent revivals of ON THE TOWN (which is a very close
second to J & H for all time hated shows) & GREASE (which I only forgive
because I like the movie so much...in a campy, funsy, sort of way)...
And if it wasn't for Douglas Sills' wonderfully engaging performance I
would have equally hated PIMPERNELL the first time around...
Alison
Eric Rasmussen
fra...@webtv.net (Alison Franck) wrote:
> Hmmmmmmmmmm
>
> Hey, I am not happy about this fact, but it seems to be his mission. I
> spoke with someone who works with him and not only does he envision
> himself as the new KING OF BROADWAY but ne has loads of other musicals
> he's working on...
>
> YIKES!!!
>
> Someone save us!
<snip>
I agree it could be bad, regardless of if you are a Wildhorn fan or not.
However, what if along his journey to THE THRONE he decides that a Best
New Musical Tony is what he really wants, then he has two options:
1) Write a Tony caliber show, or...
2) Fill every theatre with a Wildhorn show and debut 4 new shows in a
single year, blocking out any competition, and guaranteeing a win.....
:)
Eric
..Whose two posts in one evening has frightened him back into the shadows.
Chorine
recall, it was the ONLY musical nominated in more than one category.
Or am I remembering it incorrectly?
GumiCo
about Mr. Wildhorn actually work with him? Frank seems like a very humble
person and although he has been very successful on Broadway, it hasn't appeared
that it has gone to his head. Maybe you don't like Jekyll & Hyde or Scarlet
Pimpernel for that matter, but consider how different the two are. The Civil
War and Havana are also completely different. At least Mr. Wildhorn is
exploring several different styles of music, and hopefully, one day you will
learn to appreciate his transcendence through "classic" musical styles.
EMoore1975
and his musicals happen to be his choice of collaborators. Say what you want
about pop music, but just because the music is in one style does not require
that the lyrics be as well. Pop music can work in a musical setting, but
generic pop lyrics will fail you everytime with people who look for a song to
further the story.
I think many of the songs in the Civil War tell good stories, though they are
self-contained and thus much like country or pop music today, but his music for
Havana is really hot. I only hope the lyrics live up to what it can be.
Eric
Ira Rohinsky
dislike Wildhorn, but try being a little grown up about it (and a bit
more intelligent too). I am also sorry to tell you that there many , and
many more to come, Wildhorn fans.
<A
HREF="http://www.inergy.com/Jekyll/">
Visit my Daughter's Site : Lady Lurk's Links </A>
Ira
FM
Mr. Michael A. Benedetto wrote:
> Ira Rohinsky wrote on Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:58:10 -0500 (EST):
> >
> > All I can say is I feel sorry for you. It's your choice to like or
> > dislike Wildhorn, but try being a little grown up about it (and a bit
> > more intelligent too). I am also sorry to tell you that there many ,
> > and many more to come, Wildhorn fans.
>
> SONG CUE: "Tomorrow Belongs to Me"
>
> -Mike
HA HA HA HA!!!
oh that was good Mr Benedetto!!
Alison Franck
>All I can say is I feel sorry for you. It's
>your choice to like or dislike Wildhorn,
>but try being a little grown up about it
>(and a bit more intelligent too). I am also
>sorry to tell you that there many , and
>many more to come, Wildhorn fans.
Who do you feel sorry for?
Since you didn't quote any posts in your reply, I have no idea who you
are referring to...
And, yes, I know all about the scarey Bridge & Tunnel Wildhorn fans.
Alison
Bonnie Kole
composers for Victor,Victoria. Henry Mancini had died, and Wildhorn was
brought in. I saw "Victor, Victoria" and the original treatment of
"Pimpernel," and Wildhorn is very mediocre. The musical theatre is worthy
of much more than what this composer can offer.
Alison Franck wrote in message
<5224-369...@newsd-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Hmmmmmmmmmm
Hey, I am not happy about this fact, but it seems to be his mission. I
spoke with someone who works with him and not only does he envision
himself as the new KING OF BROADWAY but ne has loads of other musicals
he's working on...
YIKES!!!
Someone save us!
(hey I kinda enjoyed PIMPERNELL, the newer version, I will admit that
Mr. Michael A. Benedetto
>
> dislike Wildhorn, but try being a little grown up about it (and a bit
> more intelligent too). I am also sorry to tell you that there many ,
> and many more to come, Wildhorn fans.
SONG CUE: "Tomorrow Belongs to Me"
-Mike
DAVEYLOW
>If we review Wildhorn's work, let's not forget that he was one of the
>composers for Victor,Victoria. Henry Mancini had died, and Wildhorn was
>brought in. I saw "Victor, Victoria" and the original treatment of
>"Pimpernel," and Wildhorn is very mediocre.
Indeed, Wildhorn was responsible for Paris Makes Me Horny in the score of VV,
although I guess Leslie Bricusse also must take part of the blame.--David
Ira Rohinsky
that.
Endle...@webtv.net
Rent isn't pop. Believe me, the lyrics in Seasons of Love are not
exactly profound anyway.
And what do you mean by "cheesy"? The lyrics in The Scarlet Pimpernel
fit the mood of the story and the characters, and help move the story
along. All in all, "''S Wonderful, 's marvelous." Of course, we can all
have our own opinions, "You say potato, I say pot-AH-to." If SP is
cheesy, pass the cheese, please.
"I'm just wild about WILDHORN! And Wildhorn's wild about me!"
Dana
P.S. Oh, yes, how could I forget the master of cheesiness himself- Mr.
Sondheim! How can we forget those immortal, deep lyrics from West Side
Story-- "I Feel Pretty! Oh so pretty! " Or what about, "Maria, Maria,
Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria. . ." Now, Don't get me wrong--I love
West Side Story. My point is, though, that lyrics don't have to be
profound. They just have to fit the story and sound good.
Adam D. Feldman
> And what do you mean by "cheesy"? The lyrics in The Scarlet Pimpernel
> fit the mood of the story and the characters, and help move the story
> along.
> P.S. Oh, yes, how could I forget the master of cheesiness himself- Mr.
> Sondheim! How can we forget those immortal, deep lyrics from West Side
> Story-- "I Feel Pretty! Oh so pretty! " Or what about, "Maria, Maria,
> Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria. . ." Now, Don't get me wrong--I love
> West Side Story. My point is, though, that lyrics don't have to be
> profound. They just have to fit the story and sound good.
Simple lyrics are not the same as dumb ones. Not all dumb lyrics are
simple and not all simple lyrics are dumb. "I feel pretty" is not the
same as, say, "Murder, murder / makes me 'ead spin."
Simple lyrics can be much harder to write because of the risk of falling
into platitudes or cliches. It's a delicate balance, and one which
Sondheim generally handles well (though lately, to my ear, he has fallen
into preachiness). Wildhorn hasn't had great luck with his lyricists, in
part because his music is often punchy and bombastic, which may be fun
to listen to but which doesn't lend itself well to lyrical
sophistication.
Warmly,
Adam
EMoore1975
>part because his music is often punchy and bombastic, which may be fun
>to listen to but which doesn't lend itself well to lyrical
>sophistication.
At least you managed to put into words a good reason to find fault with
Wildhorn's music. Saying something is too poppy only means you don't like pop
music. But I do think you're right. Jack Murphy, who has been Wildhorn's
collaborator of late (and on Linda Eder's albums), has done the best job of
producing lyrics that sometimes say something, but they often fall on the
repetitive side (as in, different songs say basically the same thing). His
work on Havana has promise...Linda has been singing two of the numbers from the
show in her concert. The music is not pop, it's big band and Cuban, and the
lyrics don't have that verse, chorus, verse, chorus, refrain, big ending feell
each time out.
Eric
Endle...@webtv.net
being yelled by a newsboy.
Dana
Endle...@webtv.net
Prayer, for instance, does not ever repeat, and beautifully shows
Percy's inner turmoil. He moves from wanting his wife no matter what she
has done, to being angry at her deception, then mad at himself for being
"a fool," and then finally deciding he can move on and right
Marguerite's wrong. If this song is not emotional and perceptive, I
don't know what is. The songs in SP make you feel for the characters, as
do the songs in J&H.
And Jack Murphy's lyrics are at times smart and sophisticated, and also
can be incredibly emotional. How can you listen to "I Don't Know How To
Say Goodbye" and not feel the widow's pain and loss? Or any of the songs
in The Civil War? Listen to the words of "Sarah"--about a soldier
writing to his wife on the eve of a battle, not expecting to survive. He
sings, "A hard wind is rising and fixing to blow, and scatter the days
we have known. But come what may I'll always be with you, watching from
above. So when you feel a cool breeze passing by, know that I am there,
as real as the words of my prayer." That is just one exerpt from one
song of an entire score of incredible emotion.
Dana
EMoore1975
I agree that many times his lyrics really say something strong, but so many of
the songs in TCW (And bear in mind I enjoy them and will definitely go see the
show) seem repetitive, most often in their theme. There's the rockin' song
about how great it is to be in the South. There's the rockin' songs about how
hard it is being a slave and how great freedom is. There's the tug at your
heartstring songs because someone has just died but life moves on.
Also, he rehashes a few of his lyrics in other songs. I won't name specific
instances here, but perhaps seeing the show itself would justify that. Many
lyricists do it, but not always in the same show.
Eric
FM
> Sondheim! How can we forget those immortal, deep lyrics from West Side
> Story-- "I Feel Pretty! Oh so pretty! " Or what about, "Maria, Maria,
> Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria. . ." Now, Don't get me wrong--I love
> West Side Story. My point is, though, that lyrics don't have to be
> profound. They just have to fit the story and sound good.
And exactly how do lyrics like "Give me this moment, this momentous
moment..." fit accurately with an upper-class, educated doctor from 19th
Century England? Interesting that you mentioned "I Feel Pretty" because
some people even feel that some of the constructions of that song are too
complicated for a Puerto Rican girl who just came to America to be
singing. The fact remains, Sondheim tries a little harder to "fit" the
story as you say and even when he doesn't, they can be too complicated!.
J&H on the other hand is an embarrassment Even I feel embarrassed for
Bricusse and I don't even know the guy. Judging from the fact that he is
not an amateur and that he has written the lyrics for several shows in his
life, I take consolation in speculating that he was too bored when he was
writing this piece. That's exactly how it comes off as -- as if he didn't
put any effort into writing this show.
Endle...@webtv.net
version of J&H. Secondly, what would an English doctor in the 19th
century say? Seems to me all of those words were around back then!
Speech hasn't changed that much since then.
I would hardly call J&H an embarrassment. Bricusse did a fine job with
the lyrics. "Facade" has smart lyrics, as does "Good And Evil." Many of
the songs show how the characters are feeling with perception and
emotion. "A New Life" can make the listener cry, it so perfectly shows
Lucy's hope and dreams for the future. Not every song is perfect, but
the show is packed with beautiful music. J&H is certainly not an
embarrassment.
Dana
Twc6
in The Civil War? Listen to the words of "Sarah"--about a soldier
writing to his wife on the eve of a battle, not expecting to survive. He
sings, "A hard wind is rising and fixing to blow, and scatter the days
we have known. But come what may I'll always be with you, watching from
above. So when you feel a cool breeze passing by, know that I am there,
as real as the words of my prayer." That is just one exerpt from one
song of an entire score of incredible emotion.>>
Any yet, what soldier from the Civil War would write a letter like that? It
sounds like junior high poetry from someone in junior high.
If the wind is "rising and fixing to blow (cliche)" how does the soldier know
it's a hard wind? And what does scatter the days we have know mean? The days
aren't going anywhere, neither are the memories, and apparently from the rest
of the lyric, the soldier isn't going too far away either.
And why say "come what may" in the same sentence where you say you'll be
watching from above? So it's not what MAY happen, he's sure. And why will he
ALWAYS be watching from above? Is his wife never going to die? And then with
the cool breeze line, he's suddenly " there." I thought he was watching from
above?
And why are only the WORDS of his prayer real? The prayer isn't? Why even
mention the "words" or a prayer -- it's empty imagery.
Alison Franck
>First of all what is wrong with "pop"
>music on Broadway?
Absolutely nothing! It should be better than it is, however. I can
clearly see by all of your posts that you love Frank Wildhorn. And by
my previous posts on this thread I have neglected to enlighten all of
you why I am disturbed by his huge following. It's not his music I
hate, it's the construction of his shows. It is facinating to me that
he had a show running for a year on Broadway and it had to be rewritten!
Songs were switched and moved like props...how was this possible? I
know how, because as catchy as some of his tunes are, they are not
helpful in telling the story...and they are as generic as a Hallmark
Card. Interesting concept...I used to spend hours in card stores (in
fact I used to work in one as a teen), and I would like to search and
search for the best cards for different people...I loved doing
that...and one day, it dawned on me..."I should start making my own
cards to say exactly what I feel or want to say to that particular
person" What a concept....to be able to tell someone exactly how you
feel at that special moment in time.
It seems to me that Wildhorn has a stock of songs that he pulls out at
any given moment. "Someone Like You Found Someone like me..." Blah blah
blah...The song that kllls me is "This is the moment"...oh god...here I
go: Why do I hate this song, oh let me count the whys: It's repetative.
It shows no inner feelings of the main character...I mean yes, we get
the point that he's made a huge decision, but why does he not go into
what and why and how he's going to do it? Listen to the lyrics....the
song can be about anything anywhere anytime..."This is the moment" I
keep wondering "The moment for what?" To quote Grease (sadly, another
yucky show...but better than this one) "Tell me more, tell me more" And
yet, he says the same thing over and over with an annoying key change
(well the song wasn't going anywhere, thy had to toss in a key change)
>Don't tell me Rent
>isn't pop. Believe me, the lyrics in
>Seasons of Love are not exactly\
>profound anyway.
Wow! You have been brainwashed! I know a lot of people here who are
not RENT fans...for many reasons. I personally love the show. And I
have openly expressed how I feel about it many times...RENT is most
definately POP music...who here ever said it wasn't? And as for the
lyrics in RENT...I will say this FOR THE RECORD...they are quite good.
Simple in some cases, but much much more profound and better at telling
the viewers the story of RENT (which is why IMHO, RENT is a much better
show than either J & H and SP) "Seasons of Love" already has a
gimmick...measuring a year...but, I had never heard of that concept
before...counting the minutes of a year...that's quite clever and very
sad because when you are dying, that's a concept you may have never
thought of until that moment. A good song to set the tone of ACT 2 of
RENT...and to reach right out to the audience....which, never happens in
a Wildhorn song...
>And what do you mean by "cheesy"? The
>lyrics in The Scarlet Pimpernel fit the
>mood of the story and the characters,
>and help move the story along. All in all,
>"''S Wonderful, 's marvelous." Of course,
>we can all have our own opinions, "You
>say potato, I say pot-AH-to." If SP is
>cheesy, pass the cheese, please.
SP is better than J & H (IMHO), but because now the songs are better
fitted in the script to better tell the story...but, yes, the songs,
IMHO, are cheesy...but several as most in J & H are super
generic...bland and more about the performer's spotlight and money note
than about the reason why they are singing in the first place. The
reason why I like musicals is because to tell the story onstage they are
using song & dance to help tell the story. If the song shows up and
stops the story and doesn't help tell the story and seems completely out
of place, something is wrong. If it all makes sense to you and you like
it...fine, but you are in a Musical Theatre newsgroup, it's not just
"you say po-tay-to and I say pa-tah-to"...many people are fired up about
this new trend on Broadway and it pisses us off. Wildhorn is not the
musical theatre I like...I am embarrassed by it's presence on Broadway.
I am not a snob. I embrace many artforms (yes, I work in television, I
watch MTV, I like rock music, I think Howard Stern is interesting)
Attention Wildhorn fans: It's not the pop music elements about Wildhorn
Musicals that bothers me...it's the cut and paste approach to story
telling. I think it's insulting to the audience and it shows poor
craftsmanship.
Alison
MrHyde6571
>although I guess Leslie Bricusse also must take part of the blame.--David
Sorry, but I believe that Mr. Mancini was responsible for this gem.
Endle...@webtv.net
the lyrics with Wildhorn. He doesn't write the words, just the music. So
to criticize Wildhorn shows's lyrics is not fair. If you don't like the
words, criticize the lyricist.
Anyway, I agree that some of the songs have obvious repetition, but
since when can a song not have a refrain? Besides, if you want to talk
about repetition, talk about Les Mis. You woud think they could have
come up with at least one more melody.
You mentioned "Someone Like You" as being blah. I disagree. Not only is
this song beautiful, but it shows how Lucy has fallen in love with
Jekyll and wishes that he could love her. I fail to see how that doesn't
help develop the character while giving the listener a wonderful song to
hear. The songs in J&H do move the story along, as they do in SP. As I
said before, they develop the characters and show their emotion and
their feelings. Of late too many songs get caught up in telling all of
the action going on. Why not speak the information and save the songs
for emotion?
Many shows have songs that could be sung apart from the actual
production. How many times have we heard Memory without a cat costume in
sight? As for cut and paste, what about the countless old songs by
Gershwin and others that were recycled show after show, movie after
movie? I suppose you didn't like Crazy For You, because that show was
made with the same concept.
Dana
Alison Franck
>P.S. Oh, yes, how could I forget the
>master of cheesiness himself- Mr.
>Sondheim! How can we forget those
>immortal, deep lyrics from West Side
>Story-- "I Feel Pretty! Oh so pretty! " Or
>what about, "Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria,
>Maria, Maria, Maria. . ." Now, Don't get
>me wrong--I love West Side Story. My
>point is, though, that lyrics don't have to
>be profound. They just have to fit the
>story and sound good.
You could have given examples of dozens of poor lyricists...you could
have pointed out the lame translations of much of LES MIZ & MISS
SAIGON...oh, so many bad lyricists...cheesey lyricists...But Sondheim is
not a good example of a bad lyricist..he is by far one of the
best...and so there, you lost me.
I can give you dozens of examples from one scene in GYPSY alone that
shows what a great book musical should be like...EXAMPLE: the Mr.
Goldstone/Little Lamb scene with Louise's Birthday party...how a genius
writes...he incorperates all of the "stuff" in the scene to tell the
story and sing some plot developing songs...Chinese Food (they love
Chinese Food..."have an EggRoll" and they use the Chinese Food to show
their joy ...and then all of Louise's animal gifts fit beautifully into
her plaitive "Little Lamb...I wonder how old I am...." seemlessly the
scene and songs go into each other, nothing is awkard or strange. True,
singing these songs out of context would be awkward...but who cares, not
all shows should have songs that can easily be removed from the score
and stand alone. I think that's part of Sondheim's charm...he sort of
discourages generic lyrics (& thank GOD!).
Alison
Mallory
fit the mood of the story and the characters, and help move the story
along. >>
*intelligently* Yeah!
<<P.S. Oh, yes, how could I forget the master of cheesiness himself- Mr.
Sondheim! How can we forget those immortal, deep lyrics from West Side
Story-- "I Feel Pretty! Oh so pretty! " Or what about, "Maria, Maria,
Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria. . ." Now, Don't get me wrong--I love
West Side Story. My point is, though, that lyrics don't have to be
profound. They just have to fit the story and sound good.>>
LOL... GO YOU... hee hee....
-Mallory
(openly not Sondheim's biggest fan... although I love Merrily We Roll
Along....)
Mallory
any given moment. "Someone Like You Found Someone like me..." Blah blah
blah...The song that kllls me is "This is the moment"...oh god...here I
go: Why do I hate this song, oh let me count the whys: It's repetative.>>
Okay, my opinions:
Wildhorn... well... to be honest, I don't usually like Wildhorn shows,
although
I confess to a Pimpernel obsession... in fact, I think Wildhorn shows are
scary, don't ask... I love most of the songs from J&H, Pimpernel --
especially
the lyrics, so ha -- but I agree about the fact that they're lyrics for
random
situations, and they don't really advance the plot or reveal character much
of
the time.
<<And
yet, he says the same thing over and over with an annoying key change
(well the song wasn't going anywhere, thy had to toss in a key change)>>
Hey, that was pretty cool, you know.
<<And as for the
lyrics in RENT...I will say this FOR THE RECORD...they are quite good.>>
Or they can be, at least. => Rent, I think, is sometimes labeled as trash
by some people... I think it's a really GOOD show, powerful at least for
the times... I'm not an obsessor, but I think it's really cool... "What You
Own"
being my favorite Rent song. (Does that say something about my personality
or anything? ;>) But, you know... it can have some not-totally-groovy
lyrics...
but that's okay... so can Wildhorn's songs....
<<A good song to set the tone of ACT 2 of
RENT...and to reach right out to the audience....which, never happens in
a Wildhorn song...>>
Whatever....
<<Attention Wildhorn fans: It's not the pop music elements about Wildhorn
Musicals that bothers me...it's the cut and paste approach to story
telling. I think it's insulting to the audience and it shows poor
craftsmanship. >>
Sooooo... are you against Wildhorn and his songs, or the way the songs fit
in (or should I say, don't)? I think the songs are great, well, on their
own. I
think Pimpernel does well with most of its songs... I don't know about J&H,
etc....
-Mallory
Ira Rohinsky
town prep run was a mistake. They said they would have made changes that
they later incorporated into SP2.
But what show has not made changes before hitting Broadway? Yes doing it
a year later was unusual, but apparantly there are theater fans who do
like SP and Wildhorn's work and producers willing to support him. And I
totally disagree with you Alison. His songs are not bland and
repetitive. Yes singers love to sing them, but is that a crime? And yet
if you don't listen to the lyrics you will miss an interesting story
being told.
Alison Franck
>As for cut and paste, what about the
>countless old songs by Gershwin and
>others that were recycled show after
>show, movie after movie? I suppose you
>didn't like Crazy For You, because that
>show was made with the same concept.
Incorrect! I loved CRAZY FOR YOU because the cut and paste method
worked! But, technically, it''s a corny show...but it's a corny show
that knows it's a corny show. Singing GREAT Gershwin songs in a Boy
Meets Girl old fashioned world of charm and fabulously constructed dance
#'s makes a hell of a lot of fun and the book to CRAZY FOR YOU works!
So there.
I don't agree with you one bit that "Someone Like You" works...it just
doesn't..and as for your theory on the diologue telling the story and
the songs showing the emotion..maybe I could agree with you, if the
songs showed any REAL emotion. The songs are plastic garbage...and
IMHO, they barely stand on their own. ("Someone Like You" is a pretty
song...but, I can think of dozens of better songs with more meaning and
better at hitting me emotionally...sorry)
Alison
Alison Franck
>His songs are not bland and repetitive.
>Yes singers love to sing them, but is that
>a crime? And yet if you don't listen to the
>lyrics you will miss an interesting story
>being told.
Of course it's not a crime that singers love to sing his songs...but,
where and when did I say that there was anything wrong with that? And,
IMHO, his songs are indeed bland and repetative...obviuosly you
disagree, fine, you have your opinion and have mine, but this is
clearly an argument of differing tastes...and clearly we disagree.
Believe me, I have listened to the lyrics (& yes, I know Wildhorn didn't
write any of them)...let me say again why I think they are not good
theatre songs...many of them are interchangable and say the same
"Non-Specific" thing about Love and Feelings...and yes, like a Hallmark
Card, one can be touched by their sentiments...but if the card were
specifically written and drawn just for you and you alone...wouldn't
that be more special? Uh, yes. Look at Sondheim's songs in INTO THE
WOODS...special songs were written to tell stories..."I Know Things
Now", "Giants in the Sky" & " On the Steps of the Palace"...the minute
you hear these songs you know specifically who is singing the song and
you have a sense of what their feeling are...nothing is missing
Wolf/Giant/Shoe...and as direct and to the point as all of these songs
are their are sneaking inward rhymes, and double meanings...clever
(maybe a bit too clever)...but we have a strong sense of who is singing
the song and why...(in Little Red's & Jack's case..it's to tell their
story & share their self-discovery...in Cinderella's case it's to make a
decision...)
But look at less obvious lyrics..like "If I Loved You" from
CAROUSEL..technically one can remove that song from CAROUSEL and it can
indeed stand on it's own...(the verse needs to be cut...) but the song
shows two people fallng in love with each other so tenderly and
dramatically...it all falls beautifully into place and tells us
something about our main characters...and they sing to each other...but
the song is filled with dramatic interpretation that is completely
lacking in the SP & J & H scores...actable moments that make the song
soar...lyrics like "Longing to tell you, but afraid and shy..I'd let my
golden chances pass me by.." When we hear these lyrics, the thoughts
and phrases make sense and we relate to them profoundly...these are
simple pure thoughts, but they are specifically stated.
"Someone like you found someone like me and suddenly nothing will ever
be the same"....whatever...it's complete drivel in my opinion... Look,
song lyrics need better verbs, better imagry, better ideas. Sorry,
but.better lyrics can be found on bathroom walls. And until Wildhorn
works with a better lyricist, his shows will continue to bug me.
Alison
Mallory
>years, to Sondheim's first show, to a song Sondheim himself admits to
>disliking (and to a section of another song that was written by Bernstein,
>not Sondheim) to critcize Sondheim's lyrics.
I'm not even going to START with my Sondheim feelings, just because
I don't want to get flamed, but.... =>
-Mallory
Matthew Murray
> From the fingers of Mallory <afredo...@earthlink.net>:
> > I'm not even going to START with my Sondheim feelings, just because
> > I don't want to get flamed, but.... =>
> > -Mallory
>
> Look, it's possible to discuss his strengths and weaknesses without
> descending into flames.
>
> For example, one could say Sondheim achieves his best work only when
> working in pastiche. His best songs are those from Follies and Company in
> which he directly lifts his style from another composer, and although he
> doesn't plagerize, this does reflect poorly on his own style. Many people
> find it harder to connect to Passion, Into the Woods, and Sunday in the
> Park with George for precisely this reason.
That's interesting... Is that actually your philosophy?
Whether it is or not, I think Sondheim's best work occurs when the
music suits the material. The music in Company is, for the most part,
"modern music" for the early 1970s and works on that level. The music for
Follies is, as the subject matter warrants, in the typical big Broadway
tradition. Occasionally in Sunday in the Park With George, this
happens--the big example I can think of is "Putting it Together," which is
one of the most perfect weddings of scene and music I can think of in
modern musical theatre. When Into the Woods treats its subject as a fairy
tale (mostly in the title song), it succeeds.
The problem with much of Sondheim's work, as I see it, is he is
too often trying to do something different regardless of whether or not it
truly fits the material. Much of the music in Sunday in the Park With
George is good, but really, when the music is pointillism or 19th century
inspired, what exactly is the source of the music? If Into the Woods
isn't a fairy tale, what is it, and why does so much of >that< music
sound modern? I have a great amount of respect for much of Sondheim's
work, but find myself very discouraged when his inability (or perhaps lack
of desire) to write music that exactly fits the material intrudes on what
have always been some of the most perfect lyrics in musical theatre
history.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew A. Murray | Over 190 computer game reviews covering
mmu...@cc.wwu.edu | games from 1977 to the present!
http://www.wwu.edu/~mmurray | http://www.wwu.edu/~mmurray/Reviews.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Levy
> Sondheim! How can we forget those immortal, deep lyrics from West Side
> Story-- "I Feel Pretty! Oh so pretty! " Or what about, "Maria, Maria,
> Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria. . ." Now, Don't get me wrong--I love
> West Side Story. My point is, though, that lyrics don't have to be
> profound. They just have to fit the story and sound good.>>
> LOL... GO YOU... hee hee....
> -Mallory
> (openly not Sondheim's biggest fan... although I love Merrily We Roll
> Along....)
The ironic bit here is that the original poster needed to go back 40
years, to Sondheim's first show, to a song Sondheim himself admits to
disliking (and to a section of another song that was written by Bernstein,
not Sondheim) to critcize Sondheim's lyrics.
No, Sondheim isn't infallible. But some intelligence in criticism goes a
long way.
(And to weigh in on the Wildhorn debate, I've not been taken by any of his
scores, but I do like individual songs like "Louis Says" and "Into the
Fire".)
--
It's delightful, it's delicious, it's dlevy!
David Levy
> I'm not even going to START with my Sondheim feelings, just because
> I don't want to get flamed, but.... =>
> -Mallory
Look, it's possible to discuss his strengths and weaknesses without
descending into flames.
For example, one could say Sondheim achieves his best work only when
working in pastiche. His best songs are those from Follies and Company in
which he directly lifts his style from another composer, and although he
doesn't plagerize, this does reflect poorly on his own style. Many people
find it harder to connect to Passion, Into the Woods, and Sunday in the
Park with George for precisely this reason.
See, that wasn't hard. Now you try.
David Levy
From the fingers of Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu>:
> That's interesting... Is that actually your philosophy?
No, but it makes a convincing argument, eh?
> Whether it is or not, I think Sondheim's best work occurs when the
> music suits the material. The music in Company is, for the most part,
> "modern music" for the early 1970s and works on that level.
Except for "You Could Drive a Person Crazy," "What Would We Do Without
You," and to a lesser extent, "Ladies Who Lunch."
> modern musical theatre. When Into the Woods treats its subject as a fairy
> tale (mostly in the title song), it succeeds.
Right - when Sondheim's pastiching Disney music. The title song, Jack,
and Red Riding Hood fall into this category. The music for the Baker,
Wife, and Mysterious Man are in the "original music" mold... I happen to
like their music, but it's much more reminiscent of Passion then the other
stuff. The same thing happens with the "book" songs in Follies, like
"Don't Look at Me," "The Road You Didn't Take," "Country House," etc.
> sound modern? I have a great amount of respect for much of Sondheim's
> work, but find myself very discouraged when his inability (or perhaps lack
> of desire) to write music that exactly fits the material intrudes on what
> have always been some of the most perfect lyrics in musical theatre
> history.
That's sort of what I was saying. Except that there's a point - when
Woods' music isn't in the fairy tale mode, it's showing the sides of the
characters that we didn't see in the "traditional" tellings of the tales.
EMoore1975
>random
>situations, and they don't really advance the plot or reveal character much
>of
>the time.
***But sometimes they do. I think that "Once Upon a Dream," "Someone Like
You," and "A New Life" all tell what a character is thinking. "A New Life" is
the best at generating a move for the character, from wishing for this life in
the beginning to preparing to reach out and grab it at the end. There's a
little manipulation after the song to make it seem a little heart-wrenching,
but that's beside the point.
><<And as for the
>lyrics in RENT...I will say this FOR THE RECORD...they are quite good.>>
><<A good song to set the tone of ACT 2 of
>RENT...and to reach right out to the audience....which, never happens in
>a Wildhorn song...>>
So it reaches out to the audience. Tell me, how does Seasons of Love advance
the plot of Rent? Not one iota; it is a definite pop song inserted to preach a
message. But it does not further the action from the first act. It is a
stand-alone song that is included there because it is a good song.
Also, tell me that "Tomorrow For Me" (or whatever the song's title is) is not
repetitive. Also, that particular line of the chorus really has nothing to do
with the rest of the song, does it? Larsen was very good at manipulating a
stereotypical music style (dance style you will hear in gay bars) for the
purposes of a character who fit this stereotype.
By being through-sung, however, Rent has many more opportunities for its songs
to tell a story. "Tango Maureen" is one of my personal favorites, although it
doesn't go anywhere. It does set up a realization, however.
On a final note: almost anyone on this newsgroup can randomly pick a musical
and effectively present their opinion of why it is good or bad. The many
things the critics have found wrong with Fosse I see and understand but I do
not have those problems. I found the show perfect for what they were trying to
accomplish (or what I thought they wanted to accomplish).
Eric
EMoore1975
>discourages generic lyrics (& thank GOD!).
By the same token, he manages to remove simplicity from the minds of a
character. Not all characters are/should be clever. Clever lyrics can amuse
many people, but you also stand the chance of breaking a character.
I think a good example of successful "dumbing" of lyrics would be Jack in Into
the Woods. He gets to sing clever (still) songs like the one to Milky White:
"I'll see you soon again...I hope that when I do, it won't be on a plate."
Cute, didn't rhyme, didn't need to.
On the other hand, I find that Squeaky (and that other guy...sorry about
forgetting the name)'s duet in Assassins is far too poetic for a Manson
groupie. It sounds like a traditional love song. Maybe that's what he wanted:
eeriness in normality...but it doesn't work.
It strangely fits better the way it was in the revised Putting It Together in
LA: a straight love song between two young lovers.
And I also like that many of Sondheim's songs are show-specific; they really
don't work as stand-alones. But he designs them that way. He knows how to
write a tune and he uses it when it is appropriate-"Send in the Clowns", "No
One Is Alone", "Move On"...well, there are plenty of others.
I'll be the first to admit that many of Wildhorns songs say the same thing.
Again, though, you have to point the finger at his lyricists. The vast
majority of his songs in a show that speak the same feeling (that generic,
gushy love thing) do not have the same musical feel...but the lyrics are
similar and generic in that Hallmark way. I've heard it told that it's because
pop music tends to inspire pop lyrics. Pop love songs are generic...no one
goes in for a Broadway-style pop song with a true story to tell. However,
there are songs of Wildhorn's which tell a beautiful tale: in the Civil War, my
personal favorite is "Candle in the Window." Standing alone, it has a
different meaning than it does in the show. Within the context, it's a very
poignant meaning and does advance the plot of that scene.
Enough criticism/defense for one night.
Eric
EMoore1975
they were set to any other composer's music.
Eric
> He
>sings, "A hard wind is rising and fixing to blow, and scatter the days
>we have known. But come what may I'll always be with you, watching from
>above. So when you feel a cool breeze passing by, know that I am there,
>as real as the words of my prayer.
>Any yet, what soldier from the Civil War would write a letter like that? It
MrHyde6571
>if
>they were set to any other composer's music.
>
>Eric
AND what credentials do THEY have? I'm curious to know what makes the people
who criticize experts? How many Broadway shows have they written and gotten to
Broadway? People like what they want. What is the problem with that?
Obviously, there are many, many people who enjoy Mr. Wildhorn's music;
otherwise his shows would have been long gone. I'm not going to argue popular
and critical success. People like what they like and that should be the end of
it.
Endle...@webtv.net
right. You seem to be a little repetitive yourself--you keep quoting the
same line. How about "The past is holding me, keeping life at bay. I
wander lost in yesterday, wanting to fly, but scared to try." Or how
about "A love to open every door, to set me free so I can soar." If
that's not imagery, I don't know what is!
Dana
Twc6
Yes, but completely trite, cliche and generic imagery... Keeping something at
bay, opening every door, set me free so I can soar -- all cliches you have
heard a million times in any bad pop song. (Not to say that EVERY pop song is
bad)
A pop song on the radio can have terrible lyrics and it really doesn't matter
-- good lyrics aren't REQUIRED for a pop hit. But to put a pop in a show, good
lyrics ARE required.
Alison Franck
>Alison, if we are going to quote from
>"Someone Like You" lets do it right. You
>seem to be a little repetitive
>yourself--you keep quoting the same line.
>How about "The past is holding me,
>keeping life at bay. I wander lost in
>yesterday, wanting to fly, but scared to
>try." Or how about "A love to open every
>door, to set me free so I can soar." If
>that's not imagery, I don't know what is!
You know what? You don't get it...I could quote any lyric from that
piece of trite and say the same thing: "Generic, generic, generic"..."A
love to open every door, to set me free so I can soar" wow..that's
deep...NOT! That's general mushiness high school poetry. Yikes. No,
you don't see how the imagry is general and non-speific do you. where in
"If I Loved You"...it's specific to a special moment shared between two
people...
I could go on and on...but we clearly will not agree here...not for a
second, because clearly what you think is genius is completely lost on
me. But, trust me, maybe once you graduate from High School you will
see the difference.
Alison
Alison Franck
>Alison, if we are going to quote from
>"Someone Like You" lets do it right. You
>seem to be a little repetitive
>yourself--you keep quoting the same line.
>How about "The past is holding me,
>keeping life at bay. I wander lost in
>yesterday, wanting to fly, but scared to
>try." Or how about "A love to open every
>door, to set me free so I can soar." If
>that's not imagery, I don't know what is!
>Dana
Oh, wait, you're right...I suddenly realize that I was all wrong..thanks
for pointing out the profound lyrics...you have proven me wrong!
Sheesh...I am not gonna bend here...but thanks for sharing more bland,
unspecific lyrics with me...you have still not impressed me in the
least!
Alison
Alison Franck
discussing Wildhorn...there is no similarities and it is an unfair
discussion. No one can begin to compare these two...Sondheim is a great
lyricist...and Wildhorn doesn't write lyrics...
It would be a much more fair argument to have discussing the
similarities between Wildhorn and Andrew Lloyd Webber...
but, you know, I am not the world's biggest Lloyd Webber fan,
either...but I will say, I thiink he's shows and scores show much more
understanding of theatricality and usually his productions have been
very well directed...
I think the concept musical, CATS (a very clever dance concert, IMHO),
was better thoughtout and structured than either
J & H or SP... It just makes me sad that people are so quick to love
something new...without realizing that even super cheesy musicals used
to be done better.
Alison
Alison Franck
>So it reaches out to the audience. Tell
>me, how does Seasons of Love advance
>the plot of Rent? Not one iota; it is a
>definite pop song inserted to preach a
>message. But it does not further the
>action from the first act. It is a
>stand-alone song that is included there
>because it is a good song.
Actually it does more than stand alone...it totally sets the tone for
Act 2 (which I had said before).the theme of "measuring a year" is seen
and heard throughout Act 2...and "Seasons of Love" is a group of friends
realization that perhaps one of them may die in that year..."Seasons of
Love" invites the audience to live the next year of their life
together...so, I can't really figure ot why you think it's just an
generic song...it's not, at laest not to me. Also, it's a warning to
the audience that someone may die in Act 2...
>Also, tell me that "Tomorrow For Me" (or
>whatever the song's title is) is not
>repetitive. Also, that particular line of the
>chorus really has nothing to do with the
>rest of the song, does it?
"Today 4U, Tomorrow For Me"...well, other than the repetative
chorus...which pop songs generally have..the song tells a story of how
Angel killed a dog and made a grand...and now he/she is sharing the
wealth with his new friends...and important song, because we see here
how generous Angel is and how delightful he is...the audience and the
people onstage all are charmed by this man...and his unique way of
thinking.
> Larsen was very good at manipulating a
>stereotypical music style (dance style
>you will hear in gay bars) for the
>purposes of a character who fit this
>stereotype. By being through-sung,
>however, Rent has many more
>opportunities for its songs to tell a story.
>"Tango Maureen" is one of my personal
>favorites, although it doesn't go
>anywhere. It does set up a realization,
>however.
"Tango Maureen"...huh..it doesn't? It does plenty about telling the
audience who Maureen is and how she makes Mark & Joanne feel...
Alison
who could point out that "Without You" is a poem set to music and really
on it's own doesn't forward the plot...but because of how it's staged it
is one of this most moving songs in the show...
IMHO, RENT really works...
Mallory
>descending into flames.
Well, -I- won't flame, but Sondheim is one majorly touchy subject, I have
found.... =>
-Mallory
Mallory
>discussing Wildhorn...there is no similarities and it is an unfair
>discussion. No one can begin to compare these two...Sondheim is a great
>lyricist...and Wildhorn doesn't write lyrics...
But your main point in your discussion was Wildhorn's lyrics (or, lyrics
to his songs)... we're just discussing that sort of thing....
>It would be a much more fair argument to have discussing the
>similarities between Wildhorn and Andrew Lloyd Webber...
We're not comparing Sondheim and Wildhorn, though, anyway....
-Mallory
Elizabeth
I recently had the privilage of seeing Pimpernel this past Saturday night.
First, I wouldn't worry too much about its popularity. It's only been out
a little over a year and I got 5th row center tickets the night before the
show. Which was really nice, I might add. It's a story that I'm fond of
and the book was very well written, I thought. The performances were
fabulous, though I can't say anything for the leads because I had the
privilage of seeing Percy's, Chauvlin's, and Marguerite's standbys perform.
My only complaint was that Marguerite had some trouble with her microphone
or her projection, because I couldn't understand any of the first song.
But she was lovely after the opening and Percy was brilliant, as was
Chauvlin. If I were the stars and I wanted to keep my job, I'd never have
called in sick.
However, I found the music uninspired. Perhaps that's because I am ever a
fan of "old school" Broadway. But I grew up with wall-to-wall musicals
like Cats and Phantom and Les Miz. And I appreciate these shows, though at
this point they are less art than they are amusement park rides. Actors
are now recreating roles that were originated before they were old enough
to play them. I saw Les Miz in Atlanta at the Fox when it was touring and
again in London and again at the Fox years later. There was one
difference. In london, the bishop was a younger man made up to look old
and I was so close I could see his make-up was poorly applied. That's it.
It's like watching a movie over and over.
My complaint with the songs in Pimpernel is that they are less songs than
really long recitatives. There was no clear line to the pieces. Even
Phantom had reoccuring themes throughout, but Pimpernel was like
stream-of-conciousness singing. And it did not touch me. It did not move
me. There was no suspense in the music, just the hanging mystery of "Is
this song ever going to end?" I always say that the proof of a good
musical is if you can leave the theatre with a song in your head. I left
Cabaret humming "Willcommen, beinvenue, Velcome.." I left Pimpernel
wondering if the guy playing Percy was gay or not.
I prefer songs you can actually sing, that have actual structure and rhythm
and mode and theme and style. Songs that tell a story, not just with the
lyrics and the occaisional dramatic note, but with melodic line and a clear
musical style. (I'm running out of vocabulary here because I only took a
semester of theory and never did my homework, but you get the idea.) And
god forbid the words should rhyme.
It is my opinion that Stephen Sondheim one of the finest song writers that
has ever lived. He is a master craftsman. Jonathan Larson said that
Sondheim was his mentor. There are countless others. Sondheim's mentor
was Hammerstein. It's a style I'd love to see revived with new material.
But if stream-of-conciousness is where we are headed, oh well. It's not my
preference, but I'm not one to stifle creativity or change. I don't think
that Wildhorn is the next king of Broadway, Broadway's last genius's
potential will never be realized. And I enjoyed Pimpernel, just not the
music. I loved J&H, but that was before Broadway and I understand the
whole thing is different now (Incidentally, I thought Maury Yeston did that
show.)
As long as shows like Chicago and Little Me and Cabaret get revived, that's
where I'll be. And if that's not what's popular, all the better. I'll get
good seats. :)
Ooops. I didn't mean to write that much.
Anyhow, if anybody reads this and knows of a good thread I can pick up
about the acting profession please point me that way, I'm always looking
for new resources.
Thanks!
Libby
Endle...@webtv.net
intelligence of every adult Wildhorn fan with one exceedingly childish
sentence.
Dana
Curt R.
David Levy wrote in message <780kei$92v$2...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
>My point is that perhaps Wildhorn is working so hard against being part of
>Broadway ("I want to bring pop music back blah blah blah") that he's
>missing out on an important part of the process. I don't think that some
>guidance or even simple exchange with some of the old-school composers
>would damage the "pop" quality of his songs, but maybe it would increase
>their theatricality. Any thoughts?
Good point. It certainly couldn't hurt! Although he'd STILL need to do
something about getting his lyricists to do the same...
Michael A Benedetto
<misss...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> First, I wouldn't worry too much about its popularity. It's only been out
> a little over a year and I got 5th row center tickets the night before the
> show.
Isn't this fact very good reason *to* worry about its popularity? It's
hardly a hot ticket, even now that it's a respectable show.
-Mike
--
I've been around. Well, maybe I haven't been around... but I've been nearby.
-Mary Richards
andy Moore
<misss...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Hm. Well. This is a facinating thread.
>
> It is my opinion that Stephen Sondheim one of the finest song writers that
> has ever lived. He is a master craftsman. Jonathan Larson said that
> Sondheim was his mentor. There are countless others. Sondheim's mentor
> was Hammerstein. It's a style I'd love to see revived with new material.
>
Hammerstein was much less pretentious than Sondheim and had the sense to
work with people who could create memorable melodies. I think its sad that
so many people are trying to imitate the Sondheim style.
Ira Rohinsky
FM
your post:
EMoore1975 wrote:
> On the other hand, I find that Squeaky (and that other guy...sorry about
> forgetting the name)'s duet in Assassins is far too poetic for a Manson
> groupie. It sounds like a traditional love song. Maybe that's what he wanted:
> eeriness in normality...but it doesn't work.
> It strangely fits better the way it was in the revised Putting It Together in
> LA: a straight love song between two young lovers.
>
I do not know how it was revised for Putting It Together but I gather they had to
throw out 3/4 of the lyrics.
"Take my blood and my body...
Let me feel fire
Let me drink poison
Tell me to tear my heart in two....
I would come take you from your life"
I cannot even IMAGINE this song as a straight love song. Yes you have hit the nail
right on its head when you say "eeriness in normality" However I have no idea what
you mean by "it doesn't work" It is a catchy tune, very much like a traditional
pop ballad. When I hear it, I like the tune, and maybe I even start to hum along
with it. But then I remember exactly WHAT they're singing about and it just gives
me the chills. If that's not called "working" (Sondheim's ability to toy with your
emotions) I don't know what is.
Ira Rohinsky
David Levy
> It is my opinion that Stephen Sondheim one of the finest song writers that
> has ever lived. He is a master craftsman. Jonathan Larson said that
> Sondheim was his mentor. There are countless others. Sondheim's mentor
> was Hammerstein. It's a style I'd love to see revived with new material.
I find the concept of mentorship very interesting. Sondheim credits
Hammerstein for much of where he is today. Jerry Herman and Meredith
Wilson both had Frank Loesser as a guiding hand. Sondheim currently
provides the role of mentor to Adam Guettel, who (I'd imagine) also has
his mom, Mary Rodgers in that position. Ahrens and Flahrety, Menkin, and
Yeston all got a lot out of the BMI process, and at least Yeston has begun
to give back in that fashion.
My point is that perhaps Wildhorn is working so hard against being part of
Broadway ("I want to bring pop music back blah blah blah") that he's
missing out on an important part of the process. I don't think that some
guidance or even simple exchange with some of the old-school composers
would damage the "pop" quality of his songs, but maybe it would increase
their theatricality. Any thoughts?
David Levy
> High School? Wow, Alison. I'm impressed. You managed to insult the
> intelligence of every adult Wildhorn fan with one exceedingly childish
> sentence.
All three of you?
Adara Rose
>"A hard wind is rising and fixing to blow, and scatter the days
>we have known. But come what may I'll always be with you, watching from
>above. So when you feel a cool breeze passing by, know that I am there,
>as real as the words of my prayer."
Then tw...@aol.com.org criticized the lyrics and said:
>Any yet, what soldier from the Civil War would write a letter like that?
Major Sullivan Ballou, 2nd Rhode Island -- whose July 14, 1861 letter inspired
the lyrics for this song. Major Ballou was killed in the battle of Bull Run.
The letter reads, in part, "But, O Sarah! if the dead can come back to this
earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in
the gladdest days and in the darkest nights always, always, and if there be a
soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath, as the cool air fans your
throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by."
Mock the imagery if you like, but your argument regarding authenticity is
hollow.
You ask
>why will he
ALWAYS be watching from above?<
Ask Major Ballou -- he was certain enough that he would ALWAYS be near Sarah
that he used the word three times in the same sentence.
You also ask,
>And why say "come what may" in the same sentence where you say you'll be
>watching from above? So it's not what MAY happen, he's sure.
I believe here you are either parsing the lyric to find an inconsistency where
one does not exist, or are simply unaware of the meaning of the phrase "come
what may." "Come what may" does not imply uncertainty -- on the contrary, it
implies resolve in the face of expected adversity. It is used in this
sentence the same way you or I would use "no matter what." Thus, "no matter
what [happens], I'll always be with you." There is no inconsistency.
Say what you will about whether these words move you on a purely subjective
level -- I cannot make you feel (or even like) something you don't. But your
critique, which purports to challenge the historical accuracy and internal
consistency of the lyrics, reads rather more like someone looking for an
after-the-fact justification of his dislike of the song, rather than a truly
objective critique.
Sharon
adar...@aol.com
David Levy
> Hammerstein was much less pretentious than Sondheim and had the sense to
> work with people who could create memorable melodies. I think its sad that
> so many people are trying to imitate the Sondheim style.
Ever see Allegro? Pipe Dream? Me and Juliet? What about any of
the string of flops Hammerstein had between Showboat and Oklahoma?
Thought so.
Sondheim had the sense to work with people who could create memorable
melodies. Jule Styne and Richard Rodgers certainly fall into that
category. But I know what you mean. Sometimes, I'm so frustrated that I
can't remember the tune to "Comedy Tonight" or "Send in the Clowns" that I
need to run to the CD player to remind myself. It's too bad Sondheim's
first show was with that guy who wrote all that long-hair music. It's a
pity that no one remembers that show... what was it called?
Adara Rose
Alison wrote:
> It's not the pop music elements about Wildhorn
>Musicals that bothers me...it's the cut and paste approach to story
>telling.
Well said. No, really. I'm a Wildhorn fan and it bothers me, too.
But what bothers me about this discussion is that it is focusing on the most
"pop" -- and most "non-character-specific" songs he has written, like "Someone
Like You."
As he writes more stuff, he is becoming more theatrical in his work. The score
to Jekyll & Hyde was first written in 1980. The Scarlet Pimpernel concept
album came out in '92. You're judging the guy, for the most part, on stuff he
wrote between ten and twenty years ago.
When you look at his more recent work, you find songs with greater
theatricality, such as "Falcon In the Dive," which couldn't be moved to another
character, or another moment in the show, and certainly couldn't exist out of
the show as a standard pop song. Also, to a somewhat lesser extent, "She Was
There." Or "By the Sword/Sons of Dixie" and "How Many Devils" from "Civil
War."
If you want to say Frank Wildhorn writes generic pop songs -- yeah, sure, I'll
grant you that. But he is also writing theatrical songs, and improving as a
theatrical composer. To write the guy off because his first musical wasn't
Sondheim is preposterous.
Sharon
adar...@aol.com
Twc6
>Any yet, what soldier from the Civil War would write a letter like that?
Major Sullivan Ballou, 2nd Rhode Island -- whose July 14, 1861 letter inspired
the lyrics for this song. Major Ballou was killed in the battle of Bull Run.
The letter reads, in part, "But, O Sarah! if the dead can come back to this
earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in
the gladdest days and in the darkest nights always, always, and if there be a
soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath, as the cool air fans your
throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by."
Mock the imagery if you like, but your argument regarding authenticity is
hollow. >>
The actual quote is nothing like the awful lyrics in the show -- it sounds
real, sincere and has much more original and evocative imagery. My point was
that the awful bland thoughts and images would never be expressed by a real
soldier, only a "lyricist" (sic)
Twc6
inspired
the lyrics for this song. Major Ballou was killed in the battle of Bull Run.
The letter reads, in part, "But, O Sarah! if the dead can come back to this
earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in
the gladdest days and in the darkest nights always, always, and if there be a
soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath, as the cool air fans your
throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by."
>why will he
ALWAYS be watching from above?<
Ask Major Ballou -- he was certain enough that he would ALWAYS be near Sarah
that he used the word three times in the same sentence.>>
Right, but he doesn't say that he will always be watching from above, he says
he will always be with her in some way. The bad lyrics suggest that Sarah will
never die and the soldier will watch her from the sky forever. The soldier was
much clearer, much more emotional, muc more poetic
Adara Rose
twc6 says, comparing the song to the Sullivan letter,
>The bad lyrics suggest that Sarah will
>never die and the soldier will watch her from the sky forever.
Have you even heard this song? Or are you basing your entire discussion on the
two lines (taken out of context) originally quoted in this newsgroup? The last
lines of the song read:
"And know that we will surely meet again
Until then I swear
I love you, my Sarah
Forever and always
And always my heart will be there."
This idea that you have that the lyrics suggest the letter-writer/singer is
saying he will be some sort of guardian angel, watching his wife from the sky
forever, protecting her from death, is simply not in the song.
Sharon
adar...@aol.com
FM
Endle...@webtv.net wrote:
> First of all, "This momentous moment" is not a line in the Broadway
> version of J&H. Secondly, what would an English doctor in the 19th
> century say? Seems to me all of those words were around back then!
>
Why is it that every time I point out that horrendous lyric, a jekkie
always responds NOT with, "No I think it's good" or "No it's not that bad"
but rather with, "That's not in the show anymore."? Hmmmm...
To answer your second question -- The point I was trying to make is not
that the English language has changed but that someone as educated as Dr
Henry Jekyll is supposed to be, would not have such a limited vocabulary as
to resort to saying, "momentous moment" I don't care if they've revised
that show a million times or how long ago that first lyric was written (yes
I know it is from the original concept recording with Colm Wilkinsion) --
for a seasoned Broadway lyricist like Bricusse to have EVER written such a
childish lyric is DAMN embarrassing. If I were him, I would never have
enough guts to show my face in public ever again.
> I would hardly call J&H an embarrassment. Bricusse did a fine job with
> the lyrics. "Facade" has smart lyrics, as does "Good And Evil."
Really?"There are preachers who kill
'There are killers who preach
There are teachers who lie
There are liars who teach"
Does anybody remember English class in grade school? Remember as a
creative writing exercise, you would sometimes be told to write a poem?
Well if you were like me, you weren't a natural born Shakespeare. If you
were like a lot of grade schoolers, your vocabulary wasn't that developed
yet. So, the forced writing assignment would progress something like this:
"Roses are red
Violets are blue
Sugar is sweet
(hmmm, I need a word that rhymes with 'blue'.. hmmm...aha!)
And I love YOU."
Many many people, when forced to write poems do this. They think of only
the rhyme that comes next and, without giving the continuity of the poem a
single thought, they just come up with any word that fits. THAT'S how I
feel like when I'm listening to J&H's lyrics -- as if Bricusse was a grade
schooler being forced to finish his English homework before getting to go
outside to play. I am sorry but I don't consider that selection above from
Facade smart at all. Good and Evil is even worse. J&H's lyrics continually
fall into the trap of repeating themselves. There is nothing clever at all
about "preachers who kill" coupled with "killers who preach" Yes we all
know what he was going for -- hypocrisy, irony shown through the use of
opposites blah blah blah. You want a better example of irony using
juxtaposed ideas? How about some lines from Sondheim, "Bricks can fall out
of clear blue skies"or "Thieves get rich and saints get shot." At least
those are true opposites.
While we're speaking of those two songs, another thing that I never
understood about J&H -- is the whole point of the show really JUST that
there is good and evil in everyone??? Exactly what the heck is Facade
about? They seem to be going for a "Double-sided nature of man" theme for
the show, yet, Facade is about hypocrisy. What the hell does hypocrisy
have to do with "there is good and evil in everyone?" Also the greatest
mystery of them all -- why do Jekkies think this theme is so profound? Do
they mean to say that they DIDN'T know that everyone has a good and evil
side to them UNTIL they saw the show? That's very scary if you ask me.
OK getting back to the lyrics. (Now I'm really into this!) I'd like to
take a look at another song: Take Me As I Am. Cute tune, love it. But
let's see...
"Look in my eyes
Who do you see there
Someone you know
Or just a stranger
If you were wise
You would see me there
(SIX LINES and we are STILL on the "I see you, you see me" thing!!!! Ok,
ok, maybe the big punch line is coming up, maybe I'm not being patient,
maybe the next line will sum it all up and make these six lines
worthwhile...)
"Love is the only danger
(WHAT THE *&#$!!!!!???? What does that mean??? I waited through six lines
of repeated phrases for THAT?? What does that have to do with the SIX
whole lines that came before it???)
"Love.... meaning me
Love... meaning you"
(Oh god make it stop, make it stop)
> "A New Life" can make the listener cry,
Of course it can, it's SUPPOSED to. Just look at how formulaic it is.
Story is starting to get long, need to end soon, but before ending, need
resolution, but before resolution, need climax (Confrontation) , need
something to spark climax, something big -- the death of a well liked
character -- but it can't be anyone too good so cross out Emma and Utterson
-- of course, Lucy! Now they needed to make it truly shocking and heart
breaking soooo... why not have her sing a
-scream-it-to-the-rafters-showstopper-of-a-number! Yes, she will make up
her mind (all of a sudden) to give up her street-walking life and start
anew. She will sing louder and louder as the song progresses. For added
effect, the bass will be added only towards the end to make it sound like
the song changed a great deal. Then when she finally dies, it will be long
and graphic. Hook, line and sinker --You've just experienced a cheap
thrill and Wildhorn is $75 richer.
While I'd love to go on, Orgo homework beckons. I wouldn't have even
written so much if it weren't for the inspiration of Alison. I haven't
checked this newsgroup for two days and suddenly I'm reading all these
posts from her that sounds like she's fighting a crusade or something!. I
just HAD to throw in an "Amen!" Good god! I'm out of breath for you
Alison!!!! :-) Good night all. I've procrastinated too much.
SngA2n
>something new...without realizing that even super cheesy musicals used
>to be done better.
>
>Alison
Like Side Show?
andy Moore
<dl...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
. Sometimes, I'm so frustrated that I
> can't remember the tune to "Comedy Tonight" or "Send in the Clowns" that I
> need to run to the CD player to remind myself. It's too bad Sondheim's
> first show was with that guy who wrote all that long-hair music. It's a
> pity that no one remembers that show... what was it called?
>
Send in the Clowns was a great song. Comedy Tonight is nowhere near that
league and very few of Sondheim's other songs come anywhere close.
Hammerstein's shows were usually packed with great songs. Sure he and his
collaborators had their bad days and some shows were better than others but
they gave you songs that stayed with you.
I also agree with Sharon about knocking new writers/composers who are not
Sondheim. Theres a lot of that going on in this newsgroup. I don't like
Wildhorn much myself because I think his songs dont reflect the character
or the situations or the drama or the period he is supposed to be writing
about. But I agree that he should not be judged on what he did years ago.
Twc6
Until then I swear
I love you, my Sarah
Forever and always
And always my heart will be there."
This idea that you have that the lyrics suggest the letter-writer/singer is
saying he will be some sort of guardian angel, watching his wife from the sky
forever, protecting her from death, is simply not in the song.>>
But if they were good lyrics, they would be consistent....only a lazy, slopyy
lyricist would have a character say "I will watch you always from above" and
not mean it
Michael A Benedetto
andyM...@hotmail.com (andy Moore) wrote:
> Send in the Clowns was a great song. Comedy Tonight is nowhere near that
> league and very few of Sondheim's other songs come anywhere close.
> Hammerstein's shows were usually packed with great songs. Sure he and his
> collaborators had their bad days and some shows were better than others but
> they gave you songs that stayed with you.
"I Enjoy Being a Girl", anyone?
As for the rest of Sondheim's output, it's a much more subjective question
than you suggest. I certainly don't agree with your assessment -- I can't
imagine how someone could overlook the quality of virtually everything in
his early 70's scores. (His later work is more of a mixed bag, but three
stunning successes should be enough for anyone.)
It's curious, too, that you call "Send in the Clowns" a great song. I like
it, but I'd still call it one of the weakest songs in that score.
Familiarity counts for a lot, eh? It's hard for theatre songs to stay with
you when they don't have any significant airplay anymore.
Alison Franck
>Alison be real! CATs better than J&H and SP?
Hey, Ira, is there any way you can figure out how to quote the posts you
are responding to???
First of al, yes, I think CATS is better than anything Wildhorn has
done. But I also don't consider CATS to be a real musical. I called it
a concept musical (this is why I wish you would quote your
posts...because you are puting words into my mouth)
When CATS was created in 1980-81...it was a new thing...nohing like it
had ever existed before...to me it is a glorified tribute to the works
of T.S. Elliott (a great poet) & to Gillian Lynn & Tevor Nunn who
figured out a way to showcase these poems to ALW's tunes...it is not a
complete musical in the sense that we expect, but it certainly created
the ART FORM of a MEGA-MUSICAL...something that got better in the
eighties with LES MIZ & PHANTOM & MISS SAIGON...(and look all of the
shows I have just mentioned are still running)...I am saying very
honestly and without one doubt that all of the above shows are INDEED
far superior to any of Wildhorn's drivel. Why???...direction, concept
and overall throughline...
Yes, I am not a huge Lloyd Webber fan...but his shows are far more
credible than Wildhorn. PHANTOM is way better than J & H (& I don't
really love PHANTOM)...and Boubil Schonberg's LES MIZ & MISS SAIGON are
genius compared to either SP & J & H...
I will go so far as to say that I love LES MIZ & MISS SAIGON for one
strong reason...I bawl my eyes out every single time I see these shows.
Why??? Because of the action, the characters and the strong direction...
Yes, some lyrics from these B & S scores are, uh, NVG (not very good),
I will agree that lyrics sound as though they may have been badly
translated from French (uh, they have)...but they do tell the story in a
very active way..and by god, you feel something! I think "Now That I've
Seen Her" has had different lyrics every single time I have seen MISS
SAIGON...and I still get the point...because emotionally we have no
question as to the reason why Ellen is singing that song...
My point is...there is nothing wrong with pop score with slighly trite
lyrics...if SOMEHOW they still move the plot along..and somehow really
really activate the characters emotions. IMHO, MISS SAIGON somehow
manages to completely move me (although "I'd Give My Life For You" is a
truly beautiful beautiful song...that song alone makes me bawl...see,
the authors know how to place a song...and utilize the right song...to
completely captivate the audience).
So, I will say that, no CATS doesn't really have a true plot...I look at
it as a spectacular dance concert/cat study...circus...but, I enjoy all
of the intial design elements and focus on detail (bad pun)...I also,
don't take CATS seriously, but I will never dismiss it...as a
concept..it works...and as a concept it works better than J & H. ( I
like SP a lot more than J & H...so, I will be kind here...but, I only
like SP more now that the changes were made)...but the score to
CATS...is a fun one...nothing great, but fun...I remember how impressed
I was with CATS when I saw it in 1984, I was 15 years old...and I
thought it was cool! I look at it now and smile, because, I try to
remember what it was that impressed me so much when I was a kid...it was
impressive...but, I am older and jaded now...I guess it was the newness
of it...I had never seen anything like it. Now, it's just sort of a
strange feeling of "ah, remember when dancing Cats were
thrilling?"...maybe it's the same sentiment I get from watching early
eighties movies like ST. ELMO'S FIRE..."ah, remember when you though
Demi Moore was a good actress?...and when this movie was deep?"
Blah,Ira...learn to quote my post before you comment...
Alison
(still soaring from Lea's opening night in SAIGON!)
Alison Franck
>But I agree that he should not be judged
>on what he did years ago.
So, if he wrote the show years ago...why was it just mounted on Broadway
2 years ago???
Hey, I am all for improvement, so why didn't Wildhorn meet a better
lyricist and rewrite J & H before it was put on a Broadway stage???
Hey, make fun of CATS all you guys want...at least it was put on
Broadway 16 years ago..
Alison
Alison Franck
>Like Side Show?
Well, yes, like SIDE SHOW.
Alison
Alison Franck
>"Amen!" Good god! I'm out of breath for
>you Alison!!!! :-) Good night all. I've
>procrastinated too much.
Thanks, FM...
Alison
MLoft31287
>lyricist...and Wildhorn doesn't write lyrics...
>
>It would be a much more fair argument to have discussing the
>similarities between Wildhorn and Andrew Lloyd Webber...
This may be off subject,but I have always wondered why shows are considerd
"Lloyd Webber's" or" Wildhorn's" when they don't write the lyric's.
Rogers & Hammerstein, Rogers & Hart, & Lerner & Loewe all give credit where
credit is due.
Shelley
EMoore1975
>> intelligence of every adult Wildhorn fan with one exceedingly childish
>> sentence.
>
>All three of you?
>
>It's delightful, it's delicious, it's dlevy!
Again, unnecessary quips. I have never been impressed by people who claim to
be such great judges of Broadway, but who quickly resort to childish remarks to
show how others have no taste when it comes to theatre.
How about I won't insult you and you won't insult me?
I happen to like Wildhorn's music. I have found many things that could be
improved upon, but I don't think any composer out there puts out work that is
beyond reproach always. However, even if I hate a composer's work, I wouldn't
bash someone for liking it. I will say in defense of people who don't like
Wildhorn that he seems to attract some people to this newsgroup who have no
ability to write...and they are also guilty of baiting others into arguments.
Eric
Tim Gowen
writes
>"Roses are red
>Violets are blue
>Sugar is sweet
>(hmmm, I need a word that rhymes with 'blue'.. hmmm...aha!)
>And I love YOU."
I like the way your fourth line seeks to typify the struggle which is
central to the artist's search for inspiration, but it doesn't really
fit in with the overall structure of the piece. :-)
Tim
Change nospam to equipoise when you e-mail me!
--
Tim Gowen
****** The RATM FAQ http://www.juglans.demon.co.uk/Tim/Tim.htm ******
Tim Gowen
<kah...@king.cts.com> writes
>you call Sondheim "pretentious" and claim he can't create "memorable
>melodies." What *is* it _exactly_ you are having trouble "follerin'?"
Yeah, I want to hear this too. I can't even think of a melody in his
most difficult show, Sunday In The Park With George, which is
'difficult'.
EMoore1975
>had to
>throw out 3/4 of the lyrics.
Actually, I think the only lyric changed was the names Jodi/Charlie to darlin'.
IT works as a love song. I don't find it eerie within the context of the
show, I find it kind of sick. These people tried to kill people for this
"love" and the only reference you have to that in the song is that they will
drink poison or do anything for their love.
EMoore1975
>lyricist and rewrite J & H before it was put on a Broadway stage???
You know the really amazing thing? All of Sondheim's really "poetic" and
meaningful shows average less than a year most of the time, yet Wildhorn's
cheap schlock continues to sell well, making enough money to continue running
and even inspire the producing company to mount international productions as
well as a US tour. Go figure.
Now I'm sure I'll hear the traditional tale of how true art never receives the
accolades, that cheap schlock is what people come to see? Guess what; if
that's what people want to see, give it to them. I saw Titanic last night, and
what I saw was a show that attempted to do both. It tried to be romantic and
faithfully good to a real life tragedy, but it obviously also wanted to descend
into traditional caricatures of the classes: the brassy, noble Kate from 3rd
class, the society ladder-climbing Beane wife, the snobby, "how dare they make
me put on a life preserver" first class.
It missed many opportunities to decide how it wanted to proceed and thus, I
felt little to nothing for any of the characters. When they died, I mourned
the human tragedy of it all, but I really didn't care that someone in
particular (such as Barrett) had died, just that people had to die period.
Eric
(how in God's name did I get to Titanic? Well, it's late I suppose)
Eric
Adara Rose
that
>This idea that you have that the lyrics suggest the letter-writer/singer is
>saying he will be some sort of guardian angel, watching his wife from the sky
>forever, protecting her from death, is simply not in the song.
To which twc6 responded:
>But if they were good lyrics, they would be consistent....only a lazy, slopyy
>lyricist would have a character say "I will watch you always from above" and
>not mean it
I don't think there's anything lazy or sloppy here. If you wrote, "I will
always hate Wildhorn's music," I would not accuse you of lazy or sloppy
writing, even though your use of the word "always" could be interpreted to
imply a hatred that would outlive you, Wildhorn, and the planet itself.
Because, quite clearly, the word "always" in that sentence is limited by its
context -- in that case, to (at most) the lifespan of the speaker.
Similarly, consider the context of the "always" in "Sarah."
The song begins with:
"Oh Sarah my Sarah
I fear I must go
And leave you to move on alone."
It is only in that framework that the singer then says,
"But come what may I'll always be with you
Watching from above."
That is, he's saying, "yes, I will die, but I'm not leaving you truly alone,
because I will always be with you." Obviously, his promise to "always" be with
her (from above) is limited by the time during which she will be left alone (on
earth). And in case this is unclear to anyone, it is repeated at the end of
the song (already quoted) where he says that they will surely meet again, but
until that time, his heart will always be with her.
Again I ask if you have even heard this song, or if you are basing your entire
criticism on two lines taken out of context?
Sharon
adar...@aol.com
andy Moore
<t...@equipoise.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <36A41153...@hotmail.com>, FM <fm...@hotmail.com>
> writes
> >"Roses are red
> >Violets are blue
> >Sugar is sweet
> >(hmmm, I need a word that rhymes with 'blue'.. hmmm...aha!)
> >And I love YOU."
>
> I like the way your fourth line seeks to typify the struggle which is
> central to the artist's search for inspiration, but it doesn't really
> fit in with the overall structure of the piece. :-)
>
This tickled me and reminded me of some of the silly comments I have
recently seen on this newsgroup since I went online. Among them was some
critical comments about Nosferatu and Much Ado. I came across these and
other works by Bernard J Taylor when I was in London last summer and I have
become a great admirer of his works. I think the scores for these shows are
the most original and fresh sounding stage music I have heard. I also
think a lot of the lyrics are brilliant, like Somewhere at the Edges of
Creation and The Point of Singularity, Likewise the music and lyrics for
Much Ado which seemed very true to the story. I thought Wuthering Heights
was a bit lame on some of the lyrics but has some of the most beautiful and
dramatic music I have heard. Likewise Pride and Prejudice. I was amazed to
read that anyone could be left cold by his work. But I guess it takes all
kinds...
David Levy
> Sondheim. Theres a lot of that going on in this newsgroup. I don't like
> Wildhorn much myself because I think his songs dont reflect the character
> or the situations or the drama or the period he is supposed to be writing
But the thing people seem to forget is that we don't knock every new
composer who's not Sondheim. Will Finn, Jason Scott Brown, Adam Guettel,
etc. all seem to be accepted here. It's almost as though people just
scream something about Sondheim to divert an argument whenever it's not
going their way...
David Levy
> This may be off subject,but I have always wondered why shows are considerd
> "Lloyd Webber's" or" Wildhorn's" when they don't write the lyric's.
> Rogers & Hammerstein, Rogers & Hart, & Lerner & Loewe all give credit where
> credit is due.
It's a combination of two factors: Teams don't exist as they once did,
when the partners used to stick together for many shows. Also, Wildhorn
and Lloyd Webber project images that scream "me! me! me!" to the world,
obscuring their partners.
Twc6
Watching from above.">>
An even more striking bad lyric -- is he going to be with her, or is he going
to be watching from above? The two are mutually exclusive. In the real
soldier's letter, he is quite clear. The lyrics aren't.
Twc6
slopyy
>lyricist would have a character say "I will watch you always from above" and
>not mean it
I don't think there's anything lazy or sloppy here. If you wrote, "I will
always hate Wildhorn's music," I would not accuse you of lazy or sloppy
writing, even though your use of the word "always" could be interpreted to
imply a hatred that would outlive you, Wildhorn, and the planet itself. >>
Just a note: I haven't said a word, good or bad about Wildhorn's music in the
course of this discussion. HOWEVER, if I were listening to song lyrics about
me hating Wildhorn's music, I wouldn't want to hear "I will always hate it" in
one verse and then a verse about how eventually I will love it. It would be
lazy and sloppy, as in the Civil War lyrics
Twc6
>lyricist and rewrite J & H before it was put on a Broadway stage???
You know the really amazing thing? All of Sondheim's really "poetic" and
meaningful shows average less than a year most of the time, yet Wildhorn's
cheap schlock continues to sell well, making enough money to continue running
and even inspire the producing company to mount international productions as
well as a US tour. Go figure.>>
Highest grossest movie of 1998? Armageddon...and The Waterboy was a smash.
Alison Franck
>High School? Wow, Alison. I'm
>impressed. You managed to insult the
>intelligence of every adult Wildhorn fan
>with one exceedingly childish sentence.
You may not but this..and this may be equally as insulting, but my
remark was not meant to insult you or anyone else that way....I actually
thought you must be in high school because of how passionate you feel
about the lyrics in J & H...I mean the way you went on & on about the
beautiful imagery in "Someone Like You"...that took guts, IMHO, these
are sweet lyrics...but truthfully nothing special. And I am aware that
a very large group of the J & H fans are still in High School or Junior
High...
If someone was still young and discovering the joys of Musical Theatre I
can excuse the lame attempt to show me lyrical brilliance in J & H's
songs..but I guess I was wrong in assuming that you were still a
teenager. I am sorry...I was hoping to have "given you the benefit of
the doubt"...
Alison
feelin pretty bad right now
sarah thiboutot
emoor...@aol.com (EMoore1975) wrote:
you're supposed to find it kinda sick. but at the same time, it DOeS work
as a love song. the whole point is that the characters are so fanatic in
their love that (in just a few seconds) they will kill for it. they arent
going to condemn themselves in the song any more than the other assassins
do in the rest of the show. the whole show is designed to gte you past
that kneee-jerk reaction to look at the characters as people. it supposed
to be disturbing.
Karen Horn
: In article <780s6t$d0p$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, David Levy
: <dl...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
:
: . Sometimes, I'm so frustrated that I
: > can't remember the tune to "Comedy Tonight" or "Send in the Clowns" that I
: > need to run to the CD player to remind myself. It's too bad Sondheim's
: > first show was with that guy who wrote all that long-hair music. It's a
: > pity that no one remembers that show... what was it called?
: Send in the Clowns was a great song. Comedy Tonight is nowhere near that
: league and very few of Sondheim's other songs come anywhere close.
You are being disengenous or imprecise here. What YOU claimed was
that Sondheim didn't write _MEMORABLE_ songs. dlevy pointed out
two songs for openers, and now you're whining that you don't _LIKE_
one of them. While I'd defend your right not to _like_ something....
that's far different from your prior claim.
Karen
Karen Horn
: >Hey, I am all for improvement, so why didn't Wildhorn meet a better
: >lyricist and rewrite J & H before it was put on a Broadway stage???
:
: You know the really amazing thing? All of Sondheim's really "poetic" and
: meaningful shows average less than a year most of the time, yet Wildhorn's
: cheap schlock continues to sell well, making enough money to continue running
: and even inspire the producing company to mount international productions as
: well as a US tour. Go figure.
And by that logic would you prima facie argue that McDonald's hamburgers
are quality wise better than what 99% of the people on the planet make
from scratch?
I'm not arguing your right to like Wildhorn....I'm arguing your logic.
Karen
Jennifer Barber
adar...@aol.com (Adara Rose) wrote:
>But what bothers me about this discussion is that it is focusing on the most
>"pop" -- and most "non-character-specific" songs he has written, like "Someone
>Like You."
>
>As he writes more stuff, he is becoming more theatrical in his work.
Yes, but the problem is, he doesn't seem willing to go back and use the
more theatrical songs to *replace* the generic, non-character-specific
drivel like Somone Like You or You Are My Home. Granted, I haven't
actually *seen* J&H, but when I saw Pimpernel (old version), both YAMH and
Where's the Girl (which AFAIK *is* a newer song--at least, not on the
concept album) seemed plunked down from the middle of nowhere. And in the
latter case, it was especially bothersome, because it replaced the much
more suitable (not to mention enjoyable--and I used to think I hated this
song, until hearing Where's the Girl!) Marguerite from the concept....
I agree that some of Wildhorn's songs have been theatrical. But until he
gets rid of the generic garbage...well, I for one will continue mostly
disliking him as a theatrical composer. :) Or, rather, he'll be on my list
of "some of the songs are okay, but I don't like the shows".
jennifer
--
Uwe Kroeger page: http://www.mindspring.com/~jlbarber/kroeger.html
Elisabeth page: http://members.aol.com/jlbarber/eljen.html
"Ein Leben ohne Buecher waer' Tortur!"
--Michael Kunze, "Buecherlied", _Tanz der Vampire_
Mallory
to stay out of this, but I think some of this is getting pretty immature....
-Mallory
Alison Franck wrote in message
<5396-36A...@newsd-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>Alison, if we are going to quote from
>"Someone Like You" lets do it right. You
>seem to be a little repetitive
>yourself--you keep quoting the same line.
>How about "The past is holding me,
>keeping life at bay. I wander lost in
>yesterday, wanting to fly, but scared to
>try." Or how about "A love to open every
>door, to set me free so I can soar." If
>that's not imagery, I don't know what is!
>Dana
Oh, wait, you're right...I suddenly realize that I was all wrong..thanks
for pointing out the profound lyrics...you have proven me wrong!
Sheesh...I am not gonna bend here...but thanks for sharing more bland,
unspecific lyrics with me...you have still not impressed me in the
least!
Alison
Mallory
Mallory
Why does it matter?
Jennifer Barber
<afredo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>Blah,Ira...learn to quote my post before you comment...
>
>
>Why does it matter?
Because this is a long discussion, and besides, not everyone on the
internet gets to see every single post made to Usenet, much less in
order--even if they have the time and inclination to *read* every post they
do get. So some people won't have seen the post being replied to, some
will have forgotten it, and others just like to be able to keep the
separate sub-discussions within a thread straight in their minds. We're
not all psychic, you know; without judicious quoting, most of us aren't
going to know what someone's replying to--*especially* if the reply is a
one-line comment that reveals nothing about the context. (And see, I don't
remember what the comment that was sent without quoting was, so I don't
know if that last bit applies in this case or not.)
Alison Franck
>Because this is a long discussion, and
>besides, not everyone on the internet
>gets to see every single post made to
>Usenet, much less in order--even if they
>have the time and inclination to *read*
>every post they do get. So some people
>won't have seen the post being replied
>to, some will have forgotten it, and
>others just like to be able to keep the
>separate sub-discussions within a thread
>straight in their minds. We're not all
>psychic, you know; without judicious
>quoting, most of us aren't going to know
>what someone's replying to--*especially*
>if the reply is a one-line comment that
>reveals nothing about the context. (And
>see, I don't remember what the comment
>that was sent without quoting was, so I
>don't know if that last bit applies in this
>case or not.)
>jennifer
Thanks, I couldn't have said that better...and yes, everything you wrote
did apply...because Ira wrote that I thought CATS was better than SP & J
& H, when what I wrote was: "I think the concept musical, CATS (a very
clever dance concert, IMHO), was better thought out and structured than
either J & H or SP... It just makes me sad that people are so quick to
love something new...without realizing that even super cheesy musicals
used to be done better."...and if he had used that quote instead of just
posting:
>Alison be real! CATs better than J&H and
>SP?
If he had included what I had written it would be clear that I wasn't
putting CATS on a huge platform of wonder...and, yes, IMHO, CATS is
better than J & H and at laest the old SP (which I have already
stated)...but I ceratinly never thought CATS was a masterpiece of
Musical Theatre..but it was unique when it first arrived on
Broadway....I don't think J & H or SP share that special "new" quality
that CATS had 16 years ago...or that THE LION KING had last year.
But without quoting what I had written, Ira has misrepresented my
argument and looks like a baffoon in the process.
Alison
EMoore1975
And your point? Remember, if you want highbrow artsy music, there is always
opera.
Musicals were created as a popular art form and to suggest that it MUST be
something higher is to suggest that the form itself is wrong. Musical theatre
will only survive as long as it remains popular among a majority. Sondheim has
enjoyed enough success in the masses to create shows like Passion and
Assassins. So be happy that both can exist.
Eric
EMoore1975
>are quality wise better than what 99% of the people on the planet make
>from scratch?
>
>I'm not arguing your right to like Wildhorn....I'm arguing your logic.
>
know what? Apparently enough people find them acceptable to grace their doors
on a daily basis and necessitate branches. Same thing with Wildhorn. Maybe
his music (or the lyrics) aren't as good as, say, Sondheim, but he fills a need
many people obviously have when they choose a musical.
Eric
David Levy
> And your point? Remember, if you want highbrow artsy music, there is always
> opera.
That's not an answer. Who says we need to draw such distinctions?