Miss Saigon- Ellen's song
Ryan Mooney
after the CD... Now That I've Seen Her, just worked better... I agree.
Ryan
Ryan Mooney
think it's better when the audience is torn between who to cheer for! For
example- I felt BAD for Ellen and for Kim... they both love this man, who
is not being completely honest with either of them, if that makes any
sense...
But- I do enjoy the Engineer.
Ryan
Ryan Mooney
doing what he believe is right, that whole gang mentality that made many
Germans do stupid things...
Ryan
Ryan Mooney
> I think that's going a bit far to say you didn't dislike Thuy. I mean, sure,
> if
> you really think about it, he was only doing what he thought he should be
> doing. But, at the same time he did try to kill an innocent 2 year old boy
> just because the child made him lose his right to the woman he felt he
> deserved to be wed to.
Yah- but we all don't understand the mentality of what was going on at
that time in Saigon and such... ya know? I mean- the Vietnamese do things
very differently than we do in "civilized" (notice the quotations!!!)
North America. For example- they do kill the first born if it's a female,
or they used to!
> Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you actually saying you don't dislike
> the Nazis?
Reading it very wrong- but you have to seperate the "Germans" from the
"Nazis" they are different.
Ryan
Fryman-Maddern
the musical is loosly based, we never even have a true character for Mrs.
Pinkerton/Ellen.
Monica
Ryan Mooney wrote in message ...
Ryan Mooney
alt.fan.rosieodonnell and those people are assholes!!! :)
Ryan
RCB1113
I've been listening to my Miss Saigon CD non-stop the past week. I saw the
show on Broadway a few years ago (i'm 16 now, so I was about 13 when I saw it)
and I liked it then, but now I've totally fallen in love with it after
repeatedly listening to the recording. But one thing is confusing me- according
to the booklet, Ellen's solo number is called "Now That I've Seen Her," but she
sings the line as, "It's Her or Me." How is it sung in the show? (I certainly
can't remember what it was when I saw it) And why were the lyrics changed?
Anyone know anything about it? Thanx for any info :-)
-Ben
Pizzaman95
(Ryan Mooney) writes:
You are right, they changed it. However, I personally think It's Her or Me
worked much better since we all like to hate someone and it allowed us
to hate Ellen. Now, even Ellen lacks character, Chris is wishy-washy,
John is a do-gooder. The only one to care about is the Engineer! Seriously,
Ryan, why do you think it works better? Do you prefer the lack of conflict
between Ellen and Kim? Did you ever see the show the "original" way.
Sometimes I think my perference is because I did see it that way.
P_man
Marinus de Graaf
Ryan Mooney heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>I don't think it's better when the audience "hates" a character... I
>think it's better when the audience is torn between who to cheer for! For
>example- I felt BAD for Ellen and for Kim... they both love this man, who
>is not being completely honest with either of them, if that makes any
>sense...
>
>But- I do enjoy the Engineer.
>
>Ryan
I think 'Now that I've seen her' works better.
1. It makes more sense in a chronoligical way
2. It's more agressive than 'It's her or me' . Allthough the words are less
agressive, the rythm within those words show the anger that Ellen is
feeling.
Marinus
RCB1113
fact, i think of this show as one where you basically just feel sympathy for
all the main characters- Kim, Chris, Ellen, definitely Tam, and even the
engineer (poor guy, just wants to get to America). The only person in the whole
show the audience should dislike is Thuy. But I definitely don't understand how
this lyric change "worked better."
-Ben
JenLynnD
>worked much better since we all like to hate someone and it allowed us
>to hate Ellen. Now, even Ellen lacks character, Chris is wishy-washy,
>John is a do-gooder. The only one to care about is the Engineer!
I completely agree. It's Her or Me was so moving, Now that I've Seen Her
just didn't do it for me.
Jen
RCB1113
>doing what he believe is right
I think that's going a bit far to say you didn't dislike Thuy. I mean, sure, if
you really think about it, he was only doing what he thought he should be
doing. But, at the same time he did try to kill an innocent 2 year old boy just
because the child made him lose his right to the woman he felt he deserved to
be wed to.
> that whole gang mentality that made many
>Germans do stupid things...
>
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you actually saying you don't dislike the
Nazis?
-Ben
RCB1113
>> the Nazis?
>
>"Nazis" they are different.
>
>Ryan
>
>
In that case, i apologize. =)
-Ben
Debb
rosie...@yahoo.com (Ryan Mooney) wrote:
> I don't think it's better when the audience "hates" a character... I
> think it's better when the audience is torn between who to cheer for!
For
> example- I felt BAD for Ellen and for Kim... they both love this man,
who
> is not being completely honest with either of them, if that makes any
> sense...
>
> But- I do enjoy the Engineer.
>
> Ryan
>
about identifying with them. Although, I felt more for Kim. It must
have been so devastating to find out that the only hope that she had
left was shattered too. Did you guys watch MS with Lea in it? I
thought she made the show. It was amazing!
--
=)
As water reflects a face,
so a man's heart reflects the man.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
RCB1113
>Ah, but at least the writers give us Ellen. In "Madam Butterfly," on which
>the musical is loosly based, we never even have a true character for Mrs.
>Pinkerton/Ellen.
>Monica
That reminds me of something else I was wondering- Exactly how close is the
story of Miss Saigon to that of Madam Butterfly?
-Ben
Stephen Farrow
it three days after it opened). I read an interview with Claire Moore somewhere in
which she said that the lyrics to that song changed more or less nightly during
previews. The song was recorded as 'Her or Me', and listed as such on the British
release of the recording. I went back to see the show 18 months after it opened,
and I seem to remember that it had been changed to 'Her or Me' in the show. I'm not
sure whether it's still the same or not, because I haven't seen it since.
As to what makes better sense, I think 'Now That I've Seen Her' works best on the
first chorus ('Now that I've seen her/There's no place to hide...'), but 'Her or
Me' works better with the second ('It's her or me/and it's me he must choose...').
And no, neither version made me hate Ellen.
Stephen
RCB1113 wrote:
--
"Having intelligence enables one to analyze problems and to make sense of one's
life. This is difficult to achieve but with perseverance and persistence it is
possible not even to get out of bed in the morning."
- Christopher Durang, 'The Marriage of Bette and Boo'
Melanie Lynch
Pretty close, actually. In Butterfly, Pinkerton is sent to Japan on where he
"takes" a Japanese "wife." For her it is serious, for him it is for the
duration of his stay in Japan. He returns home and takes an American wife.
Meanwhile Butterfly is back in Japan pinning away and has his child. He returns
several years later with his wife. It's been a number of years since I have
seen it, but I'm fairly certain she commits suicide when she is gaces with the
finality of the situation.
--
Melanie
This is ridiculous! What am I doing here?
I'm in the wrong story!
FM
>
>
> I think 'Now that I've seen her' works better.
> 1. It makes more sense in a chronoligical way
> 2. It's more agressive than 'It's her or me' . Allthough the words are less
> agressive, the rythm within those words show the anger that Ellen is
> feeling.
>
> Marinus
I don't know about chronology or story, I just like Now That I've Seen Her
better because it just sounds better to me. I like how they broke up the notes
of "It's her or me" to the quicker, "Now that I've seen her." Why? Because
this score, unlike Les Miz has almost all "screamer ballads" It seems like
every darn song in this show has those overdrawn loooong notes that when
repeated too many times becomes overbearing. Sort of like what Ragtime has
been recently accused of (Listen to the Forbidden Broadway parody of this,
you'll know what I mean). After two acts of nothing but:
"Dreeeeaaaam, the dream I long to fiiiiiind, the movie in my miiiiiiiind..."
"Whyyyyyyyy Goooood?..."
"A sooooooooong played on a solo saxophoooooone"
"Stiiiiiiiill, I still belieeeeeve..."
"They're called Bui Dooooiiiii, the dust of liiiiiiiife"
etc... you get the picture...
...I would have been ready to hang myself if toward the end a song that went,
"It's her or meeee and it's me he must chooooooose..." came along. I like the
short quick five notes of Now That I've Seen Her, regardless of the lyrics, or
contents or whether or not I hate Ellen (which I think is pointless thing).
FM
RCB1113 wrote:
> >I don't even dislike Thuy... I mean- I do to a point, but he is only
> >doing what he believe is right
>
> I think that's going a bit far to say you didn't dislike Thuy. I mean, sure, if
> you really think about it, he was only doing what he thought he should be
> doing. But, at the same time he did try to kill an innocent 2 year old boy just
> because the child made him lose his right to the woman he felt he deserved to
> be wed to.
>
I do not feel that it is a bit far for the original post-er to say he/she didn't
dislike Thuy. I myself feel ambiguous about him. Of course he is no angel and I do
not condone his actions but coming from an Asian heritage myself I can at least
understand some aspects of his character. To Thuy, Tam was not an "innocent 2 year
old" and he did not merely "feel" he deserved to wed Kim. To a fiercely
nationalistic Thuy who just succeeded in recapturing his country, the ethnically
mixed Tam is an "it," a shameful spot of dirt that needed to be wiped away as
quickly as possible. His obsessed search for Kim is more than just infatuation.
Centuries of tradition and culture has dictated that his "claim" to Kim is
virtually legal and he can't see it any other way. Add to that the fact that Kim
wants to be with an American and you can just imagine how confused and irate Thuy
became. His point of view is perhaps disturbing to address, and you and I of
course will not agree with it, but the cross-cultural scope of the story demands
that we try to understand it.
FM
Melanie Lynch wrote:
That pretty much sums it up. Other key differences is of course the characters.
Butterfly has that maid, (Susuki, I think it was, right?) who is somewhat of a
major character. MS has no similar counterpart. If I recall correctly Butterfly
commits suicide because of the hopelessness of the situation. It seems to me that
Miss Saigon addresses the practical issue of the child more. To me, I see Kim as
the ultimate mother and as much as she loved Chris, by the end of the show her
first and only concern is Tam -- that's why she commits suicide because she was in
the way of Chris and Ellen taking Tam to America. That's one of the major
differences I see in comparing the opera and the musical and comparing the
musical's marketing with the actual story. The Puccini opera seems to indulge more
in the classic Western fantasy of the all-faithful, subservient Asian woman while
the musical seems more oriented toward the real social aspects of the story.
Mackintosh markets the show as a "love story" but throughout the second act, Tam's
character and the motivations he inspires in Kim play a much larger role than it
should in a typical love tragedy. Is it just me or did anyone else not see this
story as a "love story."
Oh and of course another major difference is that for all the popularity Miss
Saigon's score has achieved, all of its songs together don't match that one
killer-deathblow-of-an-aria that Butterfly has, Un Bel Di Vodremo. What a
song!!!! What a moment!!!!
FM
Here's another question for you all (man, I've never posted this many messages to a
single thread before!)
We've all discussed the whole Now That I've Seen Her/It's Her or Me thing.
Speaking of the same song, does anybody notice that of all the differences, there's
still one difference that keeps changing? The ending of the song -- "Who's the man
that I TRUSTED? Now I have to know." Another version has, "Who's the man that I
ALWAYS trusted? Now I have to know." INDEPENDENT of the whole Now That I've Seen
Her/It's Her or Me changes, this little change of lyric has been going back and
forth for the last few years. I have seen Miss Saigon 4 times now since 1993 and
although each time they used "Now That I've Seen Her", the ending line has
alternated between those two slightly different endings. Is this totally trivial?
Yes of course but since we're on this topic, I thought -- hey what the heck? I'll
ask!
By the way, of all the Ellens I've seen and heard, the one who has sung this song
with the most passion is the current Ellen -- Mary Ann Gates I think the name is.
Go check her out. It's friggin weird to see two Asians in the hotel scene. I have
in my head an image of how that scene is supposed to go -- Kim, an Asian with dark
hair on the left and Ellen a Caucasian with blond hair on the right. Seeing it
last Xmas with Lea and Gates was jolting.
Ryan Mooney
>
>
>Here's another question for you all (man, I've never posted this many messages to a
>single thread before!)
>
>We've all discussed the whole Now That I've Seen Her/It's Her or Me thing.
>Speaking of the same song, does anybody notice that of all the differences, there's
>still one difference that keeps changing? The ending of the song -- "Who's the man
>that I TRUSTED? Now I have to know." Another version has, "Who's the man that I
>ALWAYS trusted? Now I have to know." INDEPENDENT of the whole Now That I've Seen
>Her/It's Her or Me changes, this little change of lyric has been going back and
>forth for the last few years. I have seen Miss Saigon 4 times now since 1993 and
>although each time they used "Now That I've Seen Her", the ending line has
>alternated between those two slightly different endings. Is this totally trivial?
>Yes of course but since we're on this topic, I thought -- hey what the heck? I'll
>ask!
Yes- totally trivial! :) Perhaps it's changes nightly... who knows?
Lyrics I've heard are not the same everynight! :) :) :)
Ryan
Tim Gowen
<rosie...@yahoo.com> writes
>Yes- totally trivial! :) Perhaps it's changes nightly... who knows?
>Lyrics I've heard are not the same everynight! :) :) :)
The problem is that there's a lot of notes in that last line, and some
of the versions don't seem to fit - the actress sings some words across
the music, and it sounds terrible.
Tim
--
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+ The RATM FAQ: http://www.juglans.demon.co.uk/Tim/Tim.htm
Alfonso Barrera
wonderful by the way). Most of the time i hated him, but a few times the way he
looked and talked to Kim was so tender it was like he really loved her and wasn't
just upset because he "couldn't claim his prize". I don't know if anyone else ever
thought of it that way. -Camille
Alfonso Barrera
Ellen be Asian though, and could put another plot twist into the story...maybe Chris
was trying to replace Kim?? Like a man who dates a girl exactly like his ex girlfriend?
FM wrote:
> Here's another question for you all (man, I've never posted this many messages to a
> single thread before!)
>
> We've all discussed the whole Now That I've Seen Her/It's Her or Me thing.
> Speaking of the same song, does anybody notice that of all the differences, there's
> still one difference that keeps changing? The ending of the song -- "Who's the man
> that I TRUSTED? Now I have to know." Another version has, "Who's the man that I
> ALWAYS trusted? Now I have to know." INDEPENDENT of the whole Now That I've Seen
> Her/It's Her or Me changes, this little change of lyric has been going back and
> forth for the last few years. I have seen Miss Saigon 4 times now since 1993 and
> although each time they used "Now That I've Seen Her", the ending line has
> alternated between those two slightly different endings. Is this totally trivial?
> Yes of course but since we're on this topic, I thought -- hey what the heck? I'll
> ask!
>
Alison Franck
>I saw Mary Ann Gates play Ellen and she
>was spectacular. I is kind of weird having
>Ellen be Asian though, and could put
>another plot twist into the story...maybe
>Chris was trying to replace Kim?? Like a
>man who dates a girl exactly like his ex
>girlfriend?
Margaret Ann Gates is her name..and yes, she was excellent! & I felt by
having both women be Asian added a different element to the
story...Ellen, this Ellen had much more sympathy for Kim & the quality
of Margaret's voice and strong physicality...I don't think I could ever
see her as Kim...she's very different.
Alison
FM
Alison Franck wrote:
> Margaret Ann Gates is her name..and yes, she was excellent!
Oh my god!!! Soooo sorry about that! I hope she's not reading this!
Noel Katz
you all considered how the music to this song doesn't really fit the words?
Listen to it in another language, or just play it without words, and what
you've got is a very major, very jaunty-jolly melody. Does this have ANYTHING
to do with what Ellen is feeling?
Tim Gowen
<noel...@aol.com> writes
I wish she'd jump
off the Empire State!
I don't hate this girl,
even so, I'd help her jump
off the Empire State.
Eighty floors, and I'd watch her
as she went down.
You see, it's not a happy song and those last notes are very hard to
set.