Nine
-a-
I never liked the musical. Loved the score, hated the book, always so I was
wary going in.
While impeccably cast and technically (except makeup which is problematic at
times) marvelous, it still doesn't work for me, only bigger time in the
film. It's not for lack of effort from the talent -- some of whom (Fergie,
in particular) come off much better than expected, the flaw is still book.
Guido Contini is still for me a self-involved person who is irresponsible to
everyone in his life and makes a terrible and utterly unrepentant hero.
Again, Day-Lewis is terrific, but the part is the hole in the center of a
mess of a script which would have you believe that an entire film crew and
cast are working on a picture for which there is no script while the man
whom they all believe in is too busy chasing his own anatomy to step up to
the plate and honor their commitments.
Musically everyone does well (don't know if everyone is doing their own
singing). I hate that they dropped "Getting Tall," which is the one time we
get something about a sense of responsibility. They've also dropped the
title song. The musical numbers are all extremely stylish and the film's
opening and closing which involved the entire phenomenal talent roster, are
so exciting that you wish they had fixed everything in between. It ends up
being way too similar to All That Jazz for me in which we at least believed
the Fosse character was fueling his creative energy through his
self-destroying excesses. (And by the way Fosse tonality is pretty resonant
throughout with a few nods to Richard Avedon as well).
Penelope Cruz has the showcase here and the part has been expanded to give
Marion Cotillard's Luisa something more tangible to react to. Cruz is quite
good with her Phone Call from the Vatican which requires a different kind of
overplaying for camera then for stage which is pretty much given to the
Director of Cinematogrphy who is given an exquisite landscape to pore over
both in Cruz's personal landscape and elsewhere in Rome which is beautiful
and romantic here. I don't know why Cruz's makeup is so awful -- it makes
her look way too old and I don't know why they've added Kate Hudson in a
pretty similar character (with a much less interesting though no less sexy)
song (although Hudson's number is all 60's mod with boots and go-go
dancers).
The wattage of the cast -- each of whom works her heart out is certainly
compelling and like I say the opening and closing gave me such hope. But
the middle just lays there for me.
fmomoon
"-a-" <hm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hff93j$48c$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Thanks! I'm counting down the days until I can see it! Is the opening like
the stage show? Does he "conduct" the women?
--
Moni
"Who told you that you should be able to walk on water? You're human, get
used to it."
My mom
David Lawver
> Just back from a screening.
>
> I never liked the musical. Loved the score, hated the book, always so I
> was wary going in.
>
> person who is irresponsible to everyone in his life and makes a terrible
> and utterly unrepentant hero. Again, Day-Lewis is terrific, but the part
> is the hole in the center of a mess of a script which would have you
> believe that an entire film crew and cast are working on a picture for
> which there is no script while the man whom they all believe in is too
> busy chasing his own anatomy to step up to the plate and honor their
> commitments.
Thank you! You've put into words exactly what I always felt about the
show.
I'm less of a fan of the score, and in fact of Yeston in general. "In
a Very Unusual Way" is lovely and poignant, and "Be Italian" is fun,
but the rest of it is pretty ordinary stuff.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lawver la...@charter.net
"Without danger, Mr. Bardolph, there is no theatre." -Peter Shaffer
-a-
"fmomoon" <fmo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:l_GdnXhmfsRNoobW...@giganews.com...
No -- SPOILER AHEAD
On en empty soundstage the ghosts of his life enter grandly.
It's been done before and more magnificently, but somehow ghosts and a
deserted stage always do it for me.... Here this is Guido's process for
finding inspiration which is at least a hook into him as an artist.
Unforuntately, I don't think the film ever lands that paricular fish.
Robert Bouton
> > I never liked the musical. Loved the score, hated the book, always so I
> > was wary going in.
>
> > the flaw is still book.
> You've put into words exactly what I always felt about the
> show.
>
> I'm less of a fan of the score, and in fact of Yeston in general. "In
> a Very Unusual Way" is lovely and poignant, and "Be Italian" is fun,
> but the rest of it is pretty ordinary stuff.
I saw the original on Broadway and feel that Maury Yeston did an
extraordinary job on just about every song except Be Italian. His
musical palette comes from the world of classical music, so many of
the songs resemble what you'd hear at an orchestral "pops" concert
more than ordinary Broadway show tunes. Few Broadway scores do this.
On the 20th Century comes to mind, but that's used to mock and here
there's a more expressive use: to portray the inner passions of the
characters. So, numbers like The Bells of St. Sebastian and My
Husband Makes Movie are full of feeling due to rich harmonies and
emotional use of the orchestra.
I look forward to seeing the film, where there's no limit to the
number of musicians that can be used.
fmomoon
Ah. I like the idea of the empty stage. But all the women dressed
elegantly in black is so wonderful, especially has he conducts every move.
I still want to see that movie!
fmomoon
"Robert Bouton" <mpro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b6abcaef-e5a2-434e...@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
-------------
"My Husband Makes Movies" is my second favorite song from the show, "A Very
Unusual Way" is, of course, my favorite. I agree with you regarding
Yeston's influences. I noticed the same thing with his "Phantom."
-a-
Well, they had me at hello. And they had me again at goodbye... It was
everything in between which I didn't like -- although in and of themselves,
many times, the musical sequences, particularly, "Be Italian" worked very
well for me.
fmomoon
who thought she might want to go. "No, too many characters," was her
answer. Ah well...
Harlett O'Dowd
> "fmomoon" <fmom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> Well, they had me at hello. And they had me again at goodbye... It was
> everything in between which I didn't like -- although in and of themselves,
> many times, the musical sequences, particularly, "Be Italian" worked very
> well for me.- Hide quoted text -
NINE may be my favorite post-SWEENEY B'way musical. I think Kopit's
book does an extraordinary job of reducing
8 1/2 down to a managable length - especially considering the length
and scope of Yeston's score (I think there may be all of two unsung/
underscored pages of dialogue in the entire second act.)
Yes, the central conflict is much the same as STOP THE WORLD, but
where the former tried to tell its story as minimalistically as
possible, NINE (at least musically) does so using a much more
ambitious canvas.
I, too, can't wait for the film. If they do it right, this could be
the best of the post-FIDDLER-era movie musicals.
Steve Newport
Guido's Song
The Germans at the Spa
The Bells of St. Sebastian
The Grand Canal
Getting Tall
And I was disappointed that Raul went back to Karen, instead of winding
up with Shelly. BFS.
Steve Newport
favorite post-SWEENEY B'way musical.
best of the post-FIDDLER-era movie musicals.
I hope it's better than the FIDDLER or SWEENEY films.
Steve Newport
or Sophia Loren!
Joan in GB-W
"Steve Newport" <birdp...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29128-4B2...@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net...
>A commercial for the film on tonight's GLEE failed to mention Judi Dench
> or Sophia Loren!
>
People Magazine gave it three out of four stars.
Steve Newport
My wife wants to go on Chrismas Day, but I want to wait a little longer
and listen to the soundtrack CD a couple of times first.
Stephen Ross Roberts-Newport
Read about our family:
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/ps/3/fsg9vxwzgjd7y8lr1k9g.
And please click to give -- it*s free!
Blanche
there was lots of "posing", good singing, and almost no dancing, and
that was the disappointment.
David Levy
but have never seen it. I have seen 8½ but it was a few years ago and
I don't remember many of the details.
Anyway, I liked it. I thought it was slow at points, but I found
myself with tears in my eyes by the end. The only piece of music I
really missed were the first half of Be Italian (which I wouldn't have
missed if it had been replaced with dialogue, but it wasn't, it was
just cut) and The Bells of Saint Sebastian (although the scene that
replaces it almost works). I liked Kate Hudson's song better than
others seem to have liked it (based on ranting on the internet) -- I'd
love to see someone film a remake of Sweet Charity starring her.
My biggest complaint about the film was that Rob Marshall is trying
really hard to be Bob Fosse, when he's not trying to audition to
direct the film of Follies. There were a couple of moments that so
directly echoed Cabaret that it felt like it crossed the line from
tribute to pastiche. Be Italian is a direct riff on Mein Herr, and
there's a moment towards the end where the Follies Bergere theme is
played in a mournful low-brass and low-reed arrangement while all the
characters put on makeup at their tables that feels just like it was
lifted whole-cloth from Cabaret. Both Follies Bergere and Take It Off
felt like he was trying to woo Sondheim -- "Look what I could do with
the Mirror Song! Look how I would stage Ah, But Underneath!"
The irony is that Fellini didn't need to go to such lengths to
differentiate "real" from "memory" from "fantasy" in his film - part
of the artistry of his film is that the audience is never quite sure
which is which. Marshall's paint-by-numbers approach to musical
filmmaking robs Nine of this quality, and the film is all the poorer
for it.
But as I said, overall I enjoyed it. It's a beautiful film to look
at, the songs (and their singers) are great, and I even really like
the jazzy underscore by Andrea Guerra. (Too bad it's not included on
the soundtrack album. iTunes has it as a separate album, but they
want $10 for about 15 minutes worth of underscore.)
Will be curious to read what everyone else thinks!
David
Steve Newport
the film was that Rob Marshall is trying really hard to be Bob Fosse,
when he's not trying to audition to direct the film of Follies. There
were a couple of moments that so directly echoed Cabaret that it felt
like it crossed the line from tribute to pastiche. Be Italian is a
direct riff on Mein Herr, and there's a moment towards the end where the
Follies Bergere theme is played in a mournful low-brass and low-reed
arrangement while all the characters put on makeup at their tables that
feels just like it was lifted whole-cloth from Cabaret. Both Follies
Bergere and Take It Off felt like he was trying to woo Sondheim -- "Look
what I could do with the Mirror Song! Look how I would stage Ah, But
Underneath!"
I don't want Marshall near the FOLLIES film if he's going to have as few
numbers in it as he does in CHICAGO and NINE. And I really don't want
"Ah, but Underneath" in the film version of FOLLIES. BFS.
Harlett O'Dowd
SPOLIERS AHEAD:
I really really really really really wanted to like it. As I noted
previously, NINE may well be my favorite post-SWEENEY stage musical.
And while I urge anyone who loves musicals and wants more film
musicals to be made to go see it and support it, I have to say it is a
very mixed bag indeed.
The great:
1) incredibly beautiful looking film - especially the Italian location
filming. If you never had a hankering to go (or return) to Italy, you
will after seeing this film.
2) some very very clever editing. I'd love to see some of the story-
boards for this just to see the care in the planning for these
sequences.
The good:
1) Cotillard, as other have noted, comes off best. DDL, while no
singer, does some good acting work here. Loren (class with a capital
K) and Dench are quite game but no singers. (Making Lili a costumer/
confidant instead of the producer robs the role of much of its
effectiveness.) Cruz was fine and benefitted from the restoration of a
lot of Carla's material from the 8 1/2 film. As filmed, you didn't
miss "Simple" at all. Hudson and Fergie came off best after Cotillard,
largely because they had the highest energy numbers and the closest
thing to dancing in the whole film.
2) Guido actually suffers a bit after Luisa leaves him. Even without
"Getting Tall" the ending actually works.
The awful:
1) shoe-horning half of Yeston's stage score into what is essentially
a film remake of 8 1/2 helped no one.
2) yes, I get it that ALL THAT JAZZ is Fosse's take on 8 1/2, but we
don't need a remake of that either.
3) yes, we get it that Marshall wants to do the film of FOLLIES. But
we didn't need this film to be said audition reel for same.
4) yes, we get it that Marshall really loves CABARET. See above.
5) The second half of Fellini's 8 1/2 grinds to a numbing halt. Making
a musical film remake of 8 1/2 also means that the second half of the
remake will also grind to a numbing halt.
6) I suppose that Marshall wanted to make each of his numbers some
sort of pastiche/homage ("Be Italian" as "Mein Herr," / "Cinema
Italiano" as "These Boots Were Made For Walking,' "/ "Folies Bergeres"
as an audition for FOLLIES) in much the same way that the numbers in
CHICAGO are homages to 20s styles (Helen Morgan, Sophie Tucker, Bert
Williams, etc.) but when we got the um-pah "Wilkommen" vamp at the end
that eerily brought to mind the abortion sequence in Fosse's CABARET
film, I knew that Marshall simply didn't trust Yeston's and Kopit's
material.
The unforgivable:
1) remaking 8 1/2 and not including that great pan shot of the spa.
Even if we couldn't have some/most/all of "The Germans at the Spa" we
still needed that shot so long as we were sticking closer to Fellini
than to Kopit.
2) Nicole Kidman. In any other version of NINE I would weep over the
excising of "A Man Like You" and the counterpoint duet for "Unusual
Way" but here I was greatful. Not since Treat Williams appeared in
FOLLIES has a single performance sucked every bit of energy out of a
musical. Instead of making the plodding second half of the film spark
with life, she made it even worse.
fmomoon
"Harlett O'Dowd" <chris.c...@worldspan.com> wrote in message
news:8aa25969-df87-4bd2...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
That makes it so sad for me. Kidman's character is my favorite from the
stage show because she has such a gorgeous song, but otherwise the character
isn't that well written, is it? Kidman needs someone to write carefully for
her, which is why Moulin Rouge worked and, apparently, why Nine doesn't.
Steve Newport
carefully for her, which is why Moulin Rouge worked
Nothing about it worked for me.
Steve Newport
shoe-horning half of Yeston's stage score into what is essentially a
Instead of making the plodding second half of the film spark with life,
she made it even worse.
Did you see the LARRY KING interview?
She said Anthony Minghella (sp) wrote the role for her. And Rob Marshall
said she was the only one he didn't make audition.
fmomoon
Robert Bouton
was moved, as I always am, by the glorious My Husband Makes Movies.
Outside of that, it’s a flick full of problems, almost none of which
existed in the original Broadway version, which was expertly crafted
by director Tommy Tune, librettist Arthur Kopit, and songwriter
extraordinaire Maury Yeston.
Nine not only suffers in comparison to a stage show that was very much
“of the theatre” but recalls two brilliant cinematic forebears: 8½ (on
which it’s based) and Bob Fosse’s All That Jazz, a musical about a
besieged director. The new movie needed to be significantly different
rather than derivative.
One obvious thing that movies can do easier than stage is filmic
pastiche. We keep hearing what a great director Guido is, but we
never see examples, so his genius is put out there for the audience to
accept, sans evidence. On stage, we accept it, as the opening chorus
“Not Since Chaplin” is part of a musical theatre tradition – when
groups warble information, it’s usually true. Fellini’s works are
ripe for parody, and it’s a shame Rob Marshall chose to ignore this
comic possibility.
In All That Jazz, we see Joe Gideon at work and his genius is
displayed again and again. In Nine, we see Guido Contini asked a
zillion yes-or-no questions by his subordinates and he never answers.
It’s a rather dull thing to see, over and over again, and doesn’t
support the notion that he’s some genius.
But who is Guido, the man? The lyrics tell us he is “lusting for
more” and like any good Italian, has learned to “live each day as if
it may become your last.” He derives much pleasure from beautiful
women, whether it’s sexual or not, and we, the viewers, must be
seduced by his élan. On Broadway in 1982, Raul Julia may have been
childish and fickle, but he was eminently lovable. Daniel Day Lewis
makes Guido’s refusal to grow-up (nearing 50 instead of 40)
unforgivable. If he has an ounce of charm, I must have missed it.
But those Oscar-honored women have charms, don’t they? I mean, we’ve
loved them in other films, and here they are again, doing just the
sorts of things we’ve enjoyed them doing before. Compare Broadway: On
came this contralto with an other-worldly sound (Karen Akers), then an
amazingly flexible sexpot (Anita Morris) and an honest-to-God folies
bergeres girl (Liliane Montevecchi). Each was a DISCOVERY … and we
felt the excitement of being blown away by a performer we’d never
heard of before. You can’t get that when you cast umpteen famous
actresses.
In lieu of plot, the film gives us a parade: a lady is introduced,
sings a song, and then another lady is introduced, sings another song,
and soon I’m going: this is so repetitive, whoever’s last in this
parade is going to come off really badly. It’s Nicole Kidman. And
her Unusual Way makes no sense, partly because we’ve no emotional
stake in her character and how she – yet another float in the
procession – feels about Guido; partly because since the songs are
happening in Guido’s mind, “you don’t know what you do to me, you
don’t have a clue” can’t ring true.
One thing a stage show can do that celluloid never can is audience
interaction. Liliane Montevecchi was so delightful ad libbing with the
crowd, giving theatre-goers a taste of the Folies Bergeres. And then
Yeston topped it off with a contrapuntal patter filled with Cahiers du
Cinema cynicism. The movie eviscerates the number: It’s no longer an
authority figure singing, it’s an old British costumer inexplicably
throwing on a French accent, and then there’s no counterpoint.
Perhaps the worst thing the movie does is to make Guido a cipher. His
cut songs are sorely missed: Only With You’s playful passion and Bells
of St. Sebastian’s profound dichotomy in particular. It’s essential
to find Guido fascinating. The only line of dialogue retained from
Kopit’s script is the joke “It’s from the Vatican.” Later, in the
musical, we’re interested enough in Guido’s upbringing to want to
delve into his love-hate relationship with the church, which is why
The Bells of St. Sebastian is such a knock-out. You really care about
that nine-year-old boy. In the movie, we see a tired cliché, Sophia
Loren wincing as her son is beaten. Big deal!
Much has been made of Marshall’s inability to accept the convention
that, in a musical, characters speak and sing and mean what they say
and we take this as real. We’re willing to suspend disbelief because
of that old axiom, that when emotions become too great for mere words
to do, characters sing. In this Nine, characters sing because Guido
is bored, unwilling to work, or distracted, so he daydreams that
people are singing. Compared to what we see in good musicals, that’s
not a good reason to sing, so Nine comes off as a fantasy in which
every song is unmotivated, unreal, and, ultimately, unconvincing.
Steve Newport
Chaplin" is part of a musical theatre tradition. We see Guido asked a
zillion yes-or-no questions by his subordinates and he never answers.
some genius. On Broadway in 1982, Raul Julia may have been childish and
fickle, but he was eminently lovable.
Liliane Montevecchi was so delightful ad libbing with the crowd, giving
theatre-goers a taste of the Folies Bergeres. And then Yeston topped it
off with a contrapuntal patter. It's no longer an authority figure
singing and then there's no counterpoint.
Guido's cut songs are sorely missed: Only With You's playful passion and
Bells of St. Sebastian's profound dichotomy in particular. Later, in the
musical, we're interested enough in Guido's upbringing to want to delve
into his love-hate relationship with the church, which is why The Bells
of St. Sebastian is such a knock-out. You really care about that
nine-year-old boy.
------------------------------------
"The Bells" and the "Casanova" sequences are where I always lose
interest. I really don't care about his love-hate relationship with
religion. The character of "Young Guido" is never real to me. But
removing "Not Since Chaplin," "Only With You," and the "Bergeres"
counterpoint are terrible choices.
Harlett O'Dowd
> "The Bells" and the "Casanova" sequences are where I always lose
> interest.
They're also a bitch to sing. If DDL had to finess his way through "I
Can't Make this Movie" there's no way he could have handled the rest
of the score.
FWIW, "Bells" is one of my favorite parts of the show and the major
reason why I would really love to play this role.
fmomoon
----------
It is my favorite moment for Guido also.
Steve Newport
In a time when "60 is the new 40" audiences might resent a character
having a mid-life crisis in his late 30's. Plus, from the clips I've
seen, Day-Lewis still has "a torso that's rare."
Steve Newport
parts of the show and the major reason why I would really love to play
this role.>>>
----------
It is my favorite moment for Guido also.
SN: I really like "Only With You' and would probably have as much fun
doing it as I did with "Hundreds of Girls" in MACK AND MABEL. BFS.
Robert Bouton
> (nearing 50 instead of 40) unforgivable.
> --------------------------------------
Once again, you've snipped a quote to give it a completely different
meaning. What was actually said was:
"On Broadway in 1982, Raul Julia may have been
childish and fickle, but he was eminently lovable. Daniel Day Lewis
makes Guido’s refusal to grow-up (nearing 50 instead of 40)
unforgivable. If he has an ounce of charm, I must have missed it."
> In a time when "60 is the new 40" audiences might resent a character
> having a mid-life crisis in his late 30's. Plus, from the clips I've
> seen, Day-Lewis still has "a torso that's rare."
The film is set in the 1960's, when 40 was still 40. The musical
involves a character accepting that he's too old to act like an
irresponsible child any more.
Steve Newport
an irresponsible child any more.
Even the Broadway version strains to convince us that "Getting Tall" is
really an option for Guido. At 40 or 50. I never bought it. He'll go
back to his wife until he finds another young "muse."