Vulcan Blood Color?
ver...@suna4.cs.uiuc.edu
I've got a question about the color of Spock's blood. It is green and is
copper-based correct? Well, a chemistry friend of mine has told me that
if Vulcan blood is indeed copper based, the color of the blood should be blue,
not green because of the color of copper in its oxidation state happens to be
blue (or some reason having to deal with the color when copper is in its
oxidation state). Anyone (especially those chemists amoung us Trekkies) have
anything to say, add, or correct?
Andrew Vernon
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Christopher Lee Mero
Copper ions in solution (Cu2+) do give the solution a
blueish color. However, copper when it oxidizes forms
a green oxide (I think). As for what the copper-based
equivalent of hemoglobin is colored, I don't know.
Chris Mero
christoph...@dartmouth.edu
Michael A. Libes
> copper-based correct? Well, a chemistry friend of mine has told me that
> if Vulcan blood is indeed copper based, the color of the blood should
be blue,
> not green because of the color of copper in its oxidation state happens to be
> blue (or some reason having to deal with the color when copper is in its
> oxidation state). Anyone (especially those chemists amoung us Trekkies) have
> anything to say, add, or correct?
Most oxides of copper are blue, but a few are green...
- Lunarmobiscuit
Tom Kuchar
When they first decided Spock's blood was green (in the "Man Trap"), I guess
they tried to rationalize what metal, when carrying oxygen, is green. All
one has to do is look at the Statue of Liberty or the roof of some old churches
to realize copper is one answer. Whether this transfers easily to hemoglobin,
I can only speculate.
--
Tom Kuchar
kuc...@bu-ast.bu.edu
Department of Astronomy
Boston Univerity
Lee M Hirsch
A. Libes) writes:
> I've got a question about the color of Spock's blood. It is green and is
> copper-based correct? Well, a chemistry friend of mine has told me that
> if Vulcan blood is indeed copper based, the color of the blood should
> be blue,
> not green because of the color of copper in its oxidation state happens to
> be blue (or some reason having to deal with the color when copper is in its
> oxidation state).
The color has to do with the quantity of energy that Cu-based blood could
absorb both in oxidized and unoxidized states. In complex molecules such
as hemoglobin it depends not only on the oxidation state of the transition
metal, that is iron, but also what is bound with. In terms of allowable
energy transitions of the complex molecules you get some sort of compromise
between the allowable energy transitions of the transition metal and the
other atoms it is bound to, for example in hemoglobin nitrogen and oxygen.
I don't know off hand whether copper based blood would be green or blue
when exposed to air. Do we even know that it is nitrogen and oxgyen based?
The oxygen pressure on Vulcan is low. Why would we expect that the oxygen
would be an important part of Vulcan blood? Does someone know what Vulcans
really need to breathe?
Greg Banks
add my two cents' worth.....
In article <21...@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> me...@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Christopher Lee Mero) writes:
>
>Copper ions in solution (Cu2+) do give the solution a
>blueish color. However, copper when it oxidizes forms
>a green oxide (I think). As for what the copper-based
>equivalent of hemoglobin is colored, I don't know.
And the answer is: if Spock's blood uses copper instead of iron to carry
oxygen, then the chances are it would be BLUE.
Why? Well, a whole lot of real-life Earth creatures do precisely this.
Instead of using hemoglobin (which I seem to remember is four "heme groups" -
large proteins surrounding a single Fe2+ iron ion - and a whole lot of "globin",
which is another large protein) to carry oxygen from the appropriate breathing
organ, they use hemocyanins, which are the same sort of thing but use a copper
ion. Some of the creatures that do this are larger crustaceans (i.e. crabs,
lobsters, that sort of thing) and gastropod and cephalopd molluscs (which as
far as I know are snails, octupi, squids, and a whole lot of other disgustingly
squishy crawlies).
The point is that blood using hemocyanins is colourless when de-oxygenated,
but BLUE when oxygenated (or exposed to air).
As for green, there seem to be some poryphins (sp?) which have salts of
copper in them giving a green colour. However my understanding is that for
blood you need a metal cation (like Fe2+ in hemoglobin) to bond to the oxygen,
so salts are out (because the anion in the salt interferes with the
oxygenating action?!). So copper => BLUE. (Possible bogus paragraph:-)
I might add that this is so far out of my area of expertise that it's not
funny; my source is the Encyclopaedia Brittanica and a high school chemistry
text book.
On the other hand, Spock is half-human. Maybe he has both hemoglobin AND
hemocyanin in his blood. Just imagine: purple blood!
This brings me to an interesting point. I quote from the Brittanica:
" Because hemocyanins possess only about one-fourth the oxygen-combining
capacity of the common hemoglobins, species endowed with the copper carrier
of oxygen are either subject to relatively depressed metabolic activity,
... or are extremely sensitive to lack of oxygen"
In other words, copper blood either makes you sluggish or makes you pass
out in crowded rooms or at altitude (i.e. when the oxygen partial pressure
is too low). Is this the real explanation for the Vulcans' peacable attitude?
Is all that IDIC stuff simply a mask for their REAL motivation: that they
CAN'T get emotional because they can't get enough oxygen to do it properly?
For that matter, how did the Vulcans evolve? Does Vulcan have a higher
oxygen concentration than Earth, compensating for the less-potent blood?
And how does the Pon Farr (sp?) cycle fit in - is it an evolutionary device
to prevent energy being frittered away on sex without reproduction? Why am
I asking so many questions?
I have a feeling that I am about to be singed by some real biologists
(hi, p m if you're listening) or old-time Trekkies who have seen all this
before :-):-)
Hope that helps the discussion along,
Greg.
| Greg Banks, Master's shitkicker | ACSnet: ba...@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU |
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Cookson
cut open a horse shoe crab. They have copper based blood.
Dean
% Dean Cookson $ Anyone can be taught to sculpt %
% cookson%hel...@mbunix.mitre.org $ Michaelangleo would have had to %
% {devax,et al..}!linus!mbunix!helios!cookson $ have been taught how not to. %
% Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, and $ The same is true of great %
% are of questionable sanity $ programmers %
p.s. It's blue-green I believe.
Howard Steel
>> I've got a question about the color of Spock's blood. It is green and is
>> copper-based correct? Well, a chemistry friend of mine has told me that if
>> Vulcan blood is indeed copper based, the color of the blood should be blue
>Most oxides of copper are blue, but a few are green...
Indeed. Just check out our own earth-bound alien intelligence... the octopus.
This creature has a copper based blood system with a distinctive green colour.
--
Howard...@Waterloo.NCR.COM NCR Canada Ltd.
Product Safety E & M Waterloo
(519)884-1710 Ext 570 580 Weber St.N Waterloo, Ont., N2J 4G5
(519)884-0610 Facs
r..diamond
>
>to realize copper is one answer. Whether this transfers easily to hemoglobin,
>I can only speculate.
>
>--
>Tom Kuchar
>kuc...@bu-ast.bu.edu
It's been a while since organic chemistry, but isn't chlorophyll(sp?) almost
chemically identical to hemoglobin, with the difference essentially being
an iron atom replaced with copper?
__
Robert Diamond (201) 576-2357 /\
AT&T Lincroft 1A-205 /RO\
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sarah
>No-one seems to have properly answered this question, so I thought I might
>add my two cents' worth.....
>
>oxygen, then the chances are it would be BLUE.
>
>
>Hope that helps the discussion along,
>Greg.
>
>| Greg Banks, Master's shitkicker | ACSnet: ba...@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU |
>| Electrical Engineering _______| Uunet: ....!munnari!mullian!banks |_____
>| University of Melbourne | "Mednick? Mednick is a fraud. He told me I was |
>| Melbourne, Australia. | alienated. Of course I was - I'm an alien!!" |
Well, now. And what shall we do with the Andorians? I can't remember the
reference off hand, but there was, somewhere, a ST publication stating
Vulcans were copper-based and Andorians are cobalt-based, thus the
blue color skin. Now, the writers are proven not to be chemists,
and the Vulcans are proven to be Andorians. How's that again?
And what are the Andorians?
All right. Sanity is returning. It has been asked if Vulcan is a
low-oxygen atmosphere. Treknologically speaking, since the gravity
of 40 Eridani is 2.?, greater density of oxygen, as well as heavier
elements, are present. Now, to the chemists out there, what conditions,
presuming extreme heat, greater gravity, thinner atmosphere (the
_real_ reason for the pointy ears), and an _EXCESS_ of chemically
related emotionalism would account for green blood?
:-)!
Sarah L. Winters
sa...@menolly.UUCP InterNet: sa...@menolly.sr.com
UUCP: {sun, aeras, usc, pyramid, jato}!srhqla!menolly!sarah
Christopher Bruce Kidwell
>It's been a while since organic chemistry, but isn't chlorophyll(sp?)
>almost chemically identical to hemoglobin, with the difference
>essentially being an iron atom replaced with copper?
Not quite. Chlorophyll-a and chlorophyll-b both have a magnesium
center.
Chris
Sean Fagan
In article <54...@cbnewsl.ATT.COM> r...@cbnewsl.ATT.COM (r..diamond,er,) writes:
>It's been a while since organic chemistry, but isn't chlorophyll(sp?) almost
>chemically identical to hemoglobin, with the difference essentially being
>an iron atom replaced with copper?
Ugh. Why did you have to post this? I mean, my books are several hundred
miles away!
Anyway, yes, chlorophyll is *extremely* similar to hemoglobin, but I don't
believe that's the only difference.
If anybody is really curious about this, one of the sci.med groups should
provide a better answer...
--
-----------------+
Sean Eric Fagan | "It's a pity the universe doesn't use [a] segmented
se...@sco.COM | architecture with a protected mode."
uunet!sco!seanf | -- Rich Cook, _Wizard's Bane_
(408) 458-1422 | Any opinions expressed are my own, not my employers'.
acv3...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Well, I'm not sure about the exact structure of chlrophyll (or how ever it is
spelled), but it has a magnesium atom (I think) not a copper atom in it. So
it probably is not wise to compare Chlophyll and hemoglobin/hemocyanin.
Andrew Vernon
Lee M Hirsch
> It has been asked if Vulcan is a
> low-oxygen atmosphere. Treknologically speaking, since the gravity
> of 40 Eridani is 2.?, greater density of oxygen, as well as heavier
> elements, are present. Now, to the chemists out there, what conditions,
> presuming extreme heat, greater gravity, thinner atmosphere (the
> _real_ reason for the pointy ears), and an _EXCESS_ of chemically
> related emotionalism would account for green blood?
If there is a greater density of heavier elements and oxygen why isn't the
atmoshphere thicker? Also the extreme heat would also tend to favor thicker
atmosphere, for example Venus with run away Greenhouse effect. Of course,
oxygen may not be a dominant element in the rocks of Vulcan and thus wouldn't
be abundant in the atmosphere. Now I thought that in "Amok Time" Bones tells
T'pow that he must give Kirk a tri-Ox(ygen) injection to compensate for the
climate. I presume the idea of "tri" is to increase the level of oxygen in
his blood, that implies that the atmosphere is thin w.r.t. oxygen. What is
the correct story on Vulcan?
sarah
>
>If there is a greater density of heavier elements and oxygen why isn't the
>atmoshphere thicker?
There is a _lesser_ amount of oxygen, hence the reason Spock has to be
cautious in Earth-normal "rich" oxygen, also excessive water vapor causes
a type of pneumonia due to inability to handle high amounts of water in
his lungs.
I don't know about other elements, but Vulcan is a 2+ gee planet, desert
heat is the norm, going well over 140+ degrees. It is a dry heat. It has no
oceans, as they were burned off ages ago. "Spock's World" "Uhura's Song"
Thus accounting for the apparent dichotomy of high gee and thin atmosphere.
I know. Novels aren't considered 'canonical'. But it makes for a good
discussion! :-)!!
>be abundant in the atmosphere. Now I thought that in "Amok Time" Bones tells
>T'pau that he must give Kirk a tri-Ox(ygen) injection to compensate for the
>climate. I presume the idea of "tri" is to increase the level of oxygen in
>his blood, that implies that the atmosphere is thin w.r.t. oxygen. What is
>the correct story on Vulcan?
Yes, the tri-ox (if it had been given.. :) would be necessary to a human
to be able to do *anything* much less fight, because the ratio of oxygen/air
would be too little compared to human norms. Which is why Vulcans have to
lower metabolism... hm.. maybe this explains why Spock could go for 'days'
without sleep? :-)??
:-)!
Sarah L. Winters
sa...@menolly.UUCP InterNet: sa...@menolly.sr.com
UUCP: {sun, aeras, usc, pyramid, jato}!srhqla!menolly!sarah
"Art lives where absolute freedom is." Bruce Lee, 'Jeet Kune Do'
Mark Newton-John
I don't know about oxidation states (hey, I was a Political Science
major...) but the blood of scallops, which is copper based, is
blue. Perhaps things are different on another planet, but I think
that some writer saw that since the Statue of Liberty is green,
(and since it is made of copper) that copper blood is green.
Perhaps some alien newsgroup is wondering if iron based hemoglobin
isn't brown or orange in color....
Sore ja da-cha
--
Mark Newton-John
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ucdavis!csusac! - sactoh0!mfolivo
uunet!mmsac! / the good guys!
Lee M Hirsch
>
> I don't know about oxidation states (hey, I was a Political Science
> major...) but the blood of scallops, which is copper based, is
> blue. Perhaps things are different on another planet, but I think
> that some writer saw that since the Statue of Liberty is green,
> (and since it is made of copper) that copper blood is green.
>
> Perhaps some alien newsgroup is wondering if iron based hemoglobin
> isn't brown or orange in color....
Yeah! I already posted that the color is not simply due to the oxidation
state of copper (or iron) but also depends on what it is bound to, that is
the ligands (for example the iron in hemoglobin is bound to nitrogen atoms
which are portions of proteins). (I'll admit that my previous explanation
was pretty messy. - I hope this is an improvement.) Because of the bonding
only certain energies for electrons are permissible. When light strikes
the blood, some of the light frequencies (energies) are absorbed and what's
left gives you the color. Only energies (frequencies) that correspond to
going from one permissible energy to another are absorbed.
In hemoglobin, the iron is surrounded by 4 heme units (these nitrogens
attacted to protein, a globin protein (also connected via a nitrogen atom),
and a di-oxygen pair (in oxyhemoglobin, the red blood) or by water (in
deoxyhemoglobin, the blue form). (From freshman chemistry book). It is
not a simple matter to compare the color of the oxides to predict the
color of the blood because it depends on the surrounding protiens also.
Newton-John's examples above illustrate the point.
Andrew Lindh
> blue. Perhaps things are different on another planet, but I think
This is also true for Horse Shoe Crabs.
--
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Bryan George Lord
From postnews Tue May 8 20:32:31 1990
In article <49000007@suna4>, ver...@suna4.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>
> I've got a question about the color of Spock's blood. It is green and is
> copper-based correct? Well, a chemistry friend of mine has told me that
> if Vulcan blood is indeed copper based, the color of the blood should be
> blue,
> not green because of the color of copper in its oxidation state happens to be
> blue (or some reason having to deal with the color when copper is in its
> oxidation state). Anyone (especially those chemists amoung us Trekkies) have
> anything to say, add, or correct?
Sure, why not.
Actually, the color of oxidized copper is sorta turquois.
Plus green blood has always been asosiated with lizards and
negative stuff like that. That's why McCoy refers to Spocks blood as
being Green. More affect. Dig?
"Why you Blue blooded Vulcan!"
"Why you Green blooded Vulcan!"
I think that illistrates McCoy's choice of colors.
Bryan Lord * ALLOW
THE * F.P.I.G.M.
________DOWSER________ * br...@scicom.alphacdc.com
Imagination is reality. * Live long and prosper....
sarah
>
> "Why you Blue blooded Vulcan!"
Maybe this would be more appropriate for T'Pau? She was sort of the
royalty of the family, being Head Mother and all... Especially of the
House that progenated Surak. (Spock's World).
Well, then. Science has shot the writers' choice of obvious color
down the tubes. When do we inform Paramount and Goddenberry?
"40 Eridani -- Ah yes, the true royalty of the stars."
Dane Spearing
>About Spock's blood color: Have we ever gotten a good look at Spock's blood
>on the shows or movies? The only case I can think of is on Patterns of Force
>when Kirk and Spock are being whipped, you can see reddish lash marks on Kirk's
>back and greenish on Spock's. It was too hard to tell in that scene what shade
>of green it was (greenish-blue maybe? - that would solve the current debate).
>Can anyone think of other scenes that showed his blood? Was there any during
>the fight scene in Amok Time? when he "died" in The Wrath of Khan? when
>he was shot in A Private Little War?
We get a brief glimpse of Vulcan blood in "Journey to Babel" when McCoy
is doing the transfusion between Spock and Sarak. Just some green goo
coursing through rubber tubing between the two.
+-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
|Dane Spearing | |
|INTERNET: ji...@portia.stanford.edu | #include <disclaim.h> |
| or da...@denali.stanford.edu | |
+-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
E Rosenfeld
on the shows or movies? The only case I can think of is on Patterns of Force
when Kirk and Spock are being whipped, you can see reddish lash marks on Kirk's
back and greenish on Spock's. It was too hard to tell in that scene what shade
of green it was (greenish-blue maybe? - that would solve the current debate).
Can anyone think of other scenes that showed his blood? Was there any during
the fight scene in Amok Time? when he "died" in The Wrath of Khan? when
he was shot in A Private Little War?
Elie Rosenfeld | "I can see by your coat, my friend,
Bellcore | you're from the other side
Piscataway, N.J. | just one thing I've got to know; can you tell me please
(201) 699-8800 | who won?" - CSNY, "Wooden Ships"
jhc0...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
The best scene for "vulcan blood" was probably in Journey to Babel
where we see a transfusion taking place.
It looked green to me....(what was the reasoning in ST for green
blood again? Was it because the hemoglobin used Copper instead of Iron if
I remember correctly?)
Later, Jason
Diana Tyrrell
>
>I've got a question about the color of Spock's blood. It is green and is
>copper-based correct? Well, a chemistry friend of mine has told me that
>if Vulcan blood is indeed copper based, the color of the blood should be blue,
>not green because of the color of copper in its oxidation state happens to be
>blue (or some reason having to deal with the color when copper is in its
>oxidation state). Anyone (especially those chemists amoung us Trekkies) have
>anything to say, add, or correct?
>
> Andrew Vernon
In answer to your query about copper coloring, I believe that it is
the oxidized state which is green not blue. A geological example of this
is azurite and malachite, two copper minerals. Azurite (blue) forms first
in the reduced state. With changes in environment, say a change in the water
table, a malachite (green) coating will form on the exiting azurite. If
the azurite continues to be exposed to the oxidizing environment, it will
transform to malachite.
Diana M. Tyrrell
Wayne's World
The Statue of Liberty is made of copper and it is green from oxidation.
You can experiment with an old penny. (new pennies might not have much copper)
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