Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Darmok"
Timothy W. Lynch
for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
Now *that's* more like it.
Much better. Much more solid. Not perfect, mind you, but I'll take "Darmok"
over "Redemption II" any day. Details on why will follow, after this synopsis
from your local station:
The Enterprise is in the El'A'Dral system to meet with the Tamarians, a race
which seems peaceful, but have been described as "incomprehensible" in past
encounters. Both sides try to converse, but no progress seems to be made;
although the words are understandable, their meaning is not. The Tamarian
captain, after a brief and heated discussion with his first officer about
"Darmok and Jilad at Tanagra", beams off his bridge--and Picard is beamed off
the Enterprise at the same time. Attempts to retrieve him fail, as the
Tamarians have set up a transporter-blocking field in the planet's ionosphere.
Worf's first assumption is that this is some sort of challenge ritual, e.g.
personal combat. Picard at first believes this as well, and throws away the
knife that Captain Dathon throws to him, refusing to fight. Dathon replies,
frustratedly, "Chaka...when the walls fell." Riker's first attempts to
communicate with the Tamarians fail, and he orders Worf to assemble a team and
take a shuttle down to save Picard, hoping the Tamarians won't push things
that far. Picard, meanwhile, is still getting nowhere--Dathon appears
friendly, and throws Picard a brand with which to light his own campfire, but
communication is still seemingly impossible.
The shuttle tries to go down and is hit by Tamarian phasers--but only with
enough force to make them go back. Riker is puzzled. Geordi thinks that
given enough time, he might be able to punch through a very tight beam and get
Picard off, but it'll take at least a day to get ready. Riker orders him to
get on it, and orders Data and Troi to work on establishing a communication of
some sort.
They find very little at first--"Darmok", used as a name of some sort, has 47
different meanings in nearby systems. After Troi expresses her frustration at
the situation, they try again, this time with "Tanagra". It also has many
meanings--but the meanings for a particular planet combine nicely ("Darmok" is
a mythical hunter-hero, and "Tanagra" is a mythical island). Meanwhile,
Picard examines Dathon's campsite when he finds Dathon gone, and discovers
some sort of captain's log. But just then, Dathon hurries back, and
frantically tries to give Picard a knife again, saying "Darmok and Jilad at
Tanagra!" repeatedly. Picard refuses--but then a loud growl is heard from not
very far away. "Darmok, and Jilad..." says Dathon with resignation, "at
Tanagra."
Picard then takes the knife, realizing that the problem is not with Dathon.
Since ship's sensors are picking up this creature (whatever it is) moving
towards the two captains, Riker hurries Geordi along with the transporter,
despite Geordi's warning that it might not work. Meanwhile, as the creature
approaches, Picard makes an intuitive breakthrough, and finally realizes that
the Tamarians communicate via _metaphor_, by citing examples from their own
culture. "Sucat, his eyes uncovered!" exclaims Dathon in elation. However,
the creature's attack easily breaks through the defenses of both men, and
Dathon is sorely battered. Picard moves to help--and is promptly seized by a
transporter beam. The beam isn't strong enough to get him, though, and Picard
(who screamed out *against* the beam when it came) is returned to the surface,
just in time to see the creature vanish, and Dathon fall unconscious.
As the situation worsens in orbit (the interference field has now been
strengthened, Data and Troi conclude that although they know *how* the
Tamarians communicate, they don't know what the examples mean, and Riker
prepares to fire on the Tamarian ship to remove the field), Picard "talks"
with a wounded Dathon. Eventually, he pieces together the puzzle--Dathon
intended for the two of them to come down to the planet and fight a common
enemy to form a bond between them, just as Darmok and Jilad did against the
beast of Tanagra. Picard, in return, tells Dathon a tale of Gilgamesh and
Enkidu--just before Dathon succumbs to his wounds and dies.
When Riker receives word that Dathon's life signs have vanished, and that the
creature has been detected moving towards Picard again, he decides they're out
of options, and they open fire. The field is removed, and Picard is saved
just in time. Both ships trade shots several times, and the Enterprise is
close to destruction, but Picard manages to communicate the facts of the
situation enough to the Tamarian first officer that both sides leave
peacefully; not necessarily as friends, but certainly not as enemies.
There, that should do--lots shorter than last time, too. (Phew--Vidiot would
have killed me, no doubt about it. :-) ) Now, on to some commentary.
Now _this_ was an intriguing idea, no doubt about it. I find the concept of a
race which communicates only via imagery and metaphor a fascinating one, and
that portion of it was extremely well done and well executed. (One question
which I'm sure people will have is "how did they learn the myths in the first
place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would seem
to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of pictures.)
I'll get the gripes out of the way early this time. Most of the scenes on
board the Enterprise didn't work very well for me. Primarily, Riker was
WAAAAAY too hostile and quick on the trigger this time around. Now, that
isn't necessarily a problem--I was expecting towards the end that Picard would
probably speak to Riker about it at the end. Unfortunately, we're given no
indication that this was anything but the best course of action. I don't
agree. It happened to work, but it was lucky at best.
That was the biggest problem with the Enterprise scenes. Other, smaller ones
are:
--The technobabble was at a much higher and a much less relevant level than
usual, both in the shuttle and in Engineering. I was something less than
impressed. :-)
--Troi's speech during her scene with Data was overblown, unfortunately as
usual. She didn't get this way during "Loud As a Whisper", after all...
They narrowly missed a couple of other objections, too. At first, I was
really annoyed that Troi and Data managed to figure out as much as they did
and as quickly. It's still slightly annoying, but I think what they did
figure out was somewhat understandable--once the commonality came up, they
probably checked other words in the recorded exchange as well, and presumably
found lots of other mythological connections. If they'd managed to figure out
the rest and actually gotten through to them, I'd have been annoyed--but as it
is, I'll let 'em get away with it. :-)
You may be wondering why I didn't/don't have similar objections about Picard.
Simple--it's twofold. Firstly, Picard strikes me as someone far more likely
to be able to figure it out; he's an archaeologist and a historian, and has
shown in the past that he has a fairly decent intuition about things like
this. (Plus, if the last scene is any indication, he's also a hell of a
linguist, if he's reading Homer in the original Greek.) Secondly, and more
importantly, Picard had a LOT more direct exposure and conversation, and so
had more than just a few sentences to go on. Context is a very valuable
thing, and I'm sure it's what eventually won the day for him.
Now that I've gotten my objections out of the way, let's talk about the _good_
things here...
Just about all of the planetside scenes were truly amazing. It's incredibly
frustrating not to be able to get your point across to someone even when they
speak the _same_ language--to be in this situation with such a conceptual
barrier facing you must be far more so, and Stewart managed to get that across
strongly enough that I was really gritting my teeth and feeling it. (So was
Winfield, actually--I shouldn't slight him. I think he did a far better job
here than in "Star Trek II", to be honest.)
The plot was tight (I wish Riker'd been a bit less trigger-happy, but that's
more a characterization goof than a plot goof), again most especially in the
planetside scenes. Although some of the technobabble didn't thrill me, both
of the end results (the shuttle sequence and the failed transport) were very
nice indeed, especially the latter. Talk about your lousy timing...
I'm happy to say that Winrich Kolbe has *finally* turned in a superb directing
effort. He's been steadily improving (of course, from "Galaxy's Child", it's
hard not to go up :-) ), but this is the first one that really felt right. In
his last effort, "Identity Crisis", I'd said that although he pulled off the
eerie scenes quite handily, the "normal" scenes seemed stiff. Not so
here--the Picard/Dathon scenes were easily the best of the show. (There's one
particular shot which beats it, actually, but I'll get to that later.)
What really fascinated me, though (enough so that I was pausing the VCR
repeatedly during my synopsis rewatching to try to figure stuff out), was how
much of the Tamarian language and culture the show managed to get across in so
short a time. I must confess that I didn't figure out what "Darmok and Jilad
at Tanagra" meant much before we were told, but that's mostly because I wasn't
hearing it as an "and Jilad", but rather as an "Anjilad", which caused major
confusion. :-) But the Tamarian language strikes me as a rich and vivid one,
and I'm looking forward to many an argument over precisely what various
statements mean. :-) (I think some are a given--"Mirab, with sails unfurled"
almost undoubtedly is some sort of "let's get the hell out of here" comment,
and "Chaka, when the walls fell" and "Temba, his arms open" are both fairly
straightforward. I'm still puzzling over "The river Temoc, in winter!",
though.)
Miscellaneous short bits--
--Looooove that new outfit of Picard's. I want one of the jackets. :-)
--Obligatory Donaldson reference: Okay, who else was reminded of Covenant's
aborted summoning to the Land in _The Power That Preserves_ when Picard was
caught up in the failed transport?
--Picard says he's not much of a storyteller, and then casts a truly riveting
rendition of one of the many Gilgamesh legends. Modesty *does* have its
limits, Jean-Luc--I mean, really. :-) (Actually, the biggest thing this did
was whet my appetite for Stewart's "A Christmas Carol" reading this December!)
--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular mythos
was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it. (Actually, I'm
at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but I don't know most
of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind you--just interesting.
--That wonderful shot I referred to at the earlier was at the end, when we see
Picard, at the window, grimly saluting Dathon. That image itself was pretty
powerful, but somehow the warp-starfield reflecting on the window, making it
look as though the stars are moving through Picard's face and uniform,
absolutely blew me away. Marvelous piece of work. Kudos to Kolbe and to
whomever else was responsible.
--The music was once again by Jay Chattaway the Underused and Underrated, and
was superb. Bits of it reminded me of Courage's original TOS theme (and in
all the right places, too), and other bits of it reminded me of the best music
out of "The Emissary", which is one of TNG's best bits of music, IMHO. Nice
work.
--Since I'm sure someone will ask "why didn't the translator work!", I'll
answer it. This wasn't a translation problem--it was a conceptual,
comprehension problem. All the translators in the world won't help you if you
aren't thinking in even marginally similar ways.
And now, a special bonus: the last sequence of dialogue between Picard and
the Tamarian first officer. I figure tons of people will ask (and it's nice
to see the statements up for analysis later), and besides, I think the scene
was really nice. :-) For those of you reading this without having seen the
show yet, I'll apologize in advance--the voices are a powerful part of this.
Anyway:
[the Tamarians are hailed]
"Sinda--His face black, his eyes red!"
"Temoc! The river Temoc--in winter!"
[inquisitive] "Darmok?"
[decisive] "And Jilad. At Tanagra. Darmok, and Jilad--on the ocean."
[pleased] "Soca, his eyes open!"
"The beast of Tanagra. Uzani, his army. Chaka, when the walls fell."
[the Tamarians bow in reverence to Dathon. Picard holds Dathon's log in his
hand--they beam it over.] "Picard, and Dathon--at El'A'Dral. [to his crew]
Mirab, with sails unfurled."
[Picard holds up the knife, offering it] "Temba, his arms open."
"Temba...at rest." [they depart]
Marvelous, marvelous scene.
Aaaaaanyway, I think I've babbled on long enough. It's a pity the shipboard
scenes weren't a bit better, but in the grand scheme of things they didn't
hurt much. The show is _extremely_ worth seeing, just for the Picard/Dathon
scenes if nothing else. This year, as last year, a slightly muddled (or more
than slightly, in this case) season opener was followed up by a complete
change of pace, and a very worthy one.
Anyhoo, the numbers:
Plot: 9. The shipboard problems were more of a characterization problem than
a plot problem, so just down a point.
Plot Handling: 10. The cuts between the shipboard and the planetside part of
the plot were done well, and Kolbe finally figured out how to direct
well.
Characterization: 7. Points off for Riker (2) and Troi (1). Everyone else
was either stellar or unimportant. :-)
TOTAL: 9.5, after rounding up for the music. Much, MUCH better.
NEXT WEEK:
Cardassians, sabotage, terrorism and war. Oooh, great fun. :-)
Temba, at rest.
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"Sucat, his eyes uncovered!"
--"Darmok"
--
Copyright 1991, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
Paul J. Schinder
>WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
>for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
>said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
>Now _this_ was an intriguing idea, no doubt about it. I find the concept of a
>race which communicates only via imagery and metaphor a fascinating one, and
>that portion of it was extremely well done and well executed. (One question
>which I'm sure people will have is "how did they learn the myths in the first
>place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
>presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would seem
>to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of pictures.)
Doubt it, but one possibility is that only their spoken language is
imagery. I also wondered how these folks ever did the mathematics
necessary to build a starship.
I never thought I'd see a plot like this. This was the first time on
TV I've ever seen an attempt to portray aliens that are *truly* alien
in the way they think.
>I'll get the gripes out of the way early this time. Most of the scenes on
>board the Enterprise didn't work very well for me. Primarily, Riker was
>WAAAAAY too hostile and quick on the trigger this time around. Now, that
>isn't necessarily a problem--I was expecting towards the end that Picard would
>probably speak to Riker about it at the end. Unfortunately, we're given no
>indication that this was anything but the best course of action. I don't
>agree. It happened to work, but it was lucky at best.
>That was the biggest problem with the Enterprise scenes. Other, smaller ones
>are:
>--The technobabble was at a much higher and a much less relevant level than
>usual, both in the shuttle and in Engineering. I was something less than
>impressed. :-)
The whole problem with the Enterprise scenes was that it was on the
order of "we'll make one or two feeble attempts, then start blasting".
They could have easily sent down stuff down to Picard in probes, they
could have sent out several shuttles, and put the planet between
themselves and the Tamarians before decending (we know they can sense
through planets, but we know they can't shoot through them). No way
do I believe that the Tamarian pseudo-babble field extended over the
entire planet.
>The plot was tight (I wish Riker'd been a bit less trigger-happy, but that's
>more a characterization goof than a plot goof), again most especially in the
>planetside scenes. Although some of the technobabble didn't thrill me, both
>of the end results (the shuttle sequence and the failed transport) were very
>nice indeed, especially the latter. Talk about your lousy timing...
Well, here's another point that bothered me a little. They knew that
Picard and the Tamarian were under attack, so why didn't they try to
grab *both* of them?
>--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular mythos
>was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it. (Actually, I'm
>at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but I don't know most
>of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind you--just interesting.
There's a Penguin translation, and it's worth reading. Probably
chosen because it's the oldest written myth.
>--Since I'm sure someone will ask "why didn't the translator work!", I'll
>answer it. This wasn't a translation problem--it was a conceptual,
>comprehension problem. All the translators in the world won't help you if you
>aren't thinking in even marginally similar ways.
Yes, which is what made it intriguing. It took me a while to realize
that the universal translator was *working*, and that we weren't
hearing Tamarian words mixed in with English.
>TOTAL: 9.5, after rounding up for the music. Much, MUCH better.
I wouldn't go nearly this high. It was about a 7 for me. Great idea,
but the scenes in space brought it down. This was nowhere near YE or
WWtW.
>Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
>BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
>INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
>UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
>"Sucat, his eyes uncovered!"
> --"Darmok"
>--
--
--------
Paul J. Schinder
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center/Dept. of Astronomy, Cornell University
schi...@leprss.gsfc.nasa.gov
Mr. Smiley Face
:)WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
:)for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
:)said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
:)Now *that's* more like it.
:)Much better. Much more solid. Not perfect, mind you, but I'll take "Darmok"
:)over "Redemption II" any day. Details on why will follow, after this synopsis
This is getting scary... I'm agreeing with Tim again!
:)There, that should do--lots shorter than last time, too. (Phew--Vidiot would
:)have killed me, no doubt about it. :-) ) Now, on to some commentary.
Shorter isn't always better, ya know... ;)
:)Now _this_ was an intriguing idea, no doubt about it. I find the concept of a
:)race which communicates only via imagery and metaphor a fascinating one, and
:)that portion of it was extremely well done and well executed. (One question
I agree without a doubt... my curiousity was peaked the entire episode.
:)which I'm sure people will have is "how did they learn the myths in the first
:)place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
:)presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would seem
:)to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of pictures.)
I think the resolution of the conflict scene helped show this. Picard
creates the phrase himself, the first officer of the other ship accepts the
phrase, as well as the record log. I'm assuming the log contains a visual
of what occured on the planet, and anyone who want to know what the phrase
Picard created means can see a copy of this visual.
:)I'll get the gripes out of the way early this time. Most of the scenes on
:)board the Enterprise didn't work very well for me. Primarily, Riker was
:)WAAAAAY too hostile and quick on the trigger this time around. Now, that
Not neccesarily. The kidnapping of a Federation officer, much less the captain
of the flag ship, isn't an everyday occurance. (Well, okay, so this is the
third or so time it's happened in four full seasons... :)
:)--The technobabble was at a much higher and a much less relevant level than
:)usual, both in the shuttle and in Engineering. I was something less than
:)impressed. :-)
It's only a TV show, Tim :)
:)--Troi's speech during her scene with Data was overblown, unfortunately as
:)usual. She didn't get this way during "Loud As a Whisper", after all...
Actually, I didn't think this was as bad as her speaches usually are.
:)They narrowly missed a couple of other objections, too. At first, I was
:)really annoyed that Troi and Data managed to figure out as much as they did
:)and as quickly. It's still slightly annoying, but I think what they did
:)figure out was somewhat understandable--once the commonality came up, they
:)probably checked other words in the recorded exchange as well, and presumably
:)found lots of other mythological connections. If they'd managed to figure out
:)the rest and actually gotten through to them, I'd have been annoyed--but as it
:)is, I'll let 'em get away with it. :-)
Agreed. It gets really annoying when the entire cast figures out the solution.
Makes them all sound like they're related to Wesley. :)
:)You may be wondering why I didn't/don't have similar objections about Picard.
:)Simple--it's twofold. Firstly, Picard strikes me as someone far more likely
:)to be able to figure it out; he's an archaeologist and a historian, and has
:)shown in the past that he has a fairly decent intuition about things like
:)this. (Plus, if the last scene is any indication, he's also a hell of a
:)linguist, if he's reading Homer in the original Greek.) Secondly, and more
:)importantly, Picard had a LOT more direct exposure and conversation, and so
:)had more than just a few sentences to go on. Context is a very valuable
:)thing, and I'm sure it's what eventually won the day for him.
Another reason is this: get yourself stranded in Mexico. If you want to
get around and survive, you're gonna learn Spanish REAL quick. The rest
of the crew, on the other hand, wasn't in as threating a situation, and
were still able to communicate with each other in English.
:)Now that I've gotten my objections out of the way, let's talk about the _good_
:)things here...
[Points with which I agree with Tim omitted]
:)What really fascinated me, though (enough so that I was pausing the VCR
:)repeatedly during my synopsis rewatching to try to figure stuff out), was how
:)much of the Tamarian language and culture the show managed to get across in so
:)short a time. I must confess that I didn't figure out what "Darmok and Jilad
:)at Tanagra" meant much before we were told, but that's mostly because I wasn't
:)hearing it as an "and Jilad", but rather as an "Anjilad", which caused major
:)confusion. :-) But the Tamarian language strikes me as a rich and vivid one,
I think they might have even done that on purpse. I was having the same
problems. I started to realize they where of the metaphor nature, probably
events or something like that, before we were told, but not much before, and
I still was rather clueless on what they meant.
:)Miscellaneous short bits--
:)--Looooove that new outfit of Picard's. I want one of the jackets. :-)
Agreed. I'm seriously considering making myself one!
:)--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular mythos
:)was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it. (Actually, I'm
:)at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but I don't know most
:)of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind you--just interesting.
I think maybe the reason for this was that everyone is familiar with many of
the Greek and Roman myths, as well as Shakespeare and other things. As you
said, not may know more than who Gilgamesh was, and I think this shows
Picard's broad knowledge of literature and stories even further.
:)--That wonderful shot I referred to at the earlier was at the end, when we see
:)Picard, at the window, grimly saluting Dathon. That image itself was pretty
:)powerful, but somehow the warp-starfield reflecting on the window, making it
:)look as though the stars are moving through Picard's face and uniform,
:)absolutely blew me away. Marvelous piece of work. Kudos to Kolbe and to
:)whomever else was responsible.
Yeah, a lot better than the similar shot at the end of BoBWII, which it
very much reminded me of.
:)--Since I'm sure someone will ask "why didn't the translator work!", I'll
:)answer it. This wasn't a translation problem--it was a conceptual,
:)comprehension problem. All the translators in the world won't help you if you
:)aren't thinking in even marginally similar ways.
And I'm glad it didn't work, too. Everyone takes for granted that the
translator will instantly tell them what the other person is saying. It's
nice to see them have to struggle for communication. :)
:)And now, a special bonus: the last sequence of dialogue between Picard and
:)the Tamarian first officer. I figure tons of people will ask (and it's nice
:)to see the statements up for analysis later), and besides, I think the scene
:)was really nice. :-) For those of you reading this without having seen the
:)show yet, I'll apologize in advance--the voices are a powerful part of this.
:)Anyway:
:)[the Tamarians are hailed]
:)"Sinda--His face black, his eyes red!"
:)"Temoc! The river Temoc--in winter!"
:)[inquisitive] "Darmok?"
:)[decisive] "And Jilad. At Tanagra. Darmok, and Jilad--on the ocean."
:)[pleased] "Soca, his eyes open!"
:)"The beast of Tanagra. Uzani, his army. Chaka, when the walls fell."
:)[the Tamarians bow in reverence to Dathon. Picard holds Dathon's log in his
:)hand--they beam it over.] "Picard, and Dathon--at El'A'Dral. [to his crew]
:)Mirab, with sails unfurled."
:)[Picard holds up the knife, offering it] "Temba, his arms open."
:)"Temba...at rest." [they depart]
:)Marvelous, marvelous scene.
I couldn't agree more (sickening, isn't it? :)
It truely shows Picard's understanding of the language, as well as the people.
It also helps the audience to understand the language, since it's all
refernece to what we now know happened.
:)Aaaaaanyway, I think I've babbled on long enough. It's a pity the shipboard
On r.a.s? That's not possible! :)
:)scenes if nothing else. This year, as last year, a slightly muddled (or more
:)than slightly, in this case) season opener was followed up by a complete
:)change of pace, and a very worthy one.
Hmm... didn't even think about that... Let's hope they pick up the rest of
the season some more...
:)Anyhoo, the numbers:
:)Plot: 9. The shipboard problems were more of a characterization problem than
:) a plot problem, so just down a point.
:)Plot Handling: 10. The cuts between the shipboard and the planetside part of
:) the plot were done well, and Kolbe finally figured out how to direct
:) well.
:)Characterization: 7. Points off for Riker (2) and Troi (1). Everyone else
:) was either stellar or unimportant. :-)
:)TOTAL: 9.5, after rounding up for the music. Much, MUCH better.
Uhhh... Tim? 26/3 = 8 2/3. rounding up would make a 9. :)
:)Temba, at rest.
Darmok, and Jilad, on the ocean. :)
-Josh Laff :)
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
| Josh Laff: e-mail to: |
This is nothing but a consistently | smi...@uiuc.edu | # #
pathological display of inconsistent |smi...@gnu.ai.mit.edu____| _ _
consistencies. |_____________________| | |#\_____/#|
| (217) 384-6227 | \#######/
Mr. Smiley Face
:)In <1991Oct3.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
:)>WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
:)>for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
:)>said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
:)The whole problem with the Enterprise scenes was that it was on the
:)order of "we'll make one or two feeble attempts, then start blasting".
:)They could have easily sent down stuff down to Picard in probes, they
:)could have sent out several shuttles, and put the planet between
I think it can be assumed that any probes would get destroyed, and shuttles
would suffer the same problems, if not worse. Sending out a shuttle was
a test to see if the Tamarians would do anything, and what they did was
the most they could without hurting anyone. The next step would be hurting
someone.
:)themselves and the Tamarians before decending (we know they can sense
:)through planets, but we know they can't shoot through them). No way
And there all the Tamarians have to do is follow them in orbit.
:)do I believe that the Tamarian pseudo-babble field extended over the
:)entire planet.
Why not? What's to prevent that from being the case?
:)>The plot was tight (I wish Riker'd been a bit less trigger-happy, but that's
:)>more a characterization goof than a plot goof), again most especially in the
:)>planetside scenes. Although some of the technobabble didn't thrill me, both
:)>of the end results (the shuttle sequence and the failed transport) were very
:)>nice indeed, especially the latter. Talk about your lousy timing...
:)Well, here's another point that bothered me a little. They knew that
:)Picard and the Tamarian were under attack, so why didn't they try to
:)grab *both* of them?
Well, if the Tamarians grabbed Picard from the Enterprise, and Riker was
struggling to get him back, why would he either a) waste efforts to try
and get one of the ones he thought responsible for his kidnapping, or
b) risk starting further problems by "kidnapping" their captain?
James K. Huggins
|WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
|for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
|said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
|Now *that's* more like it.
|Much better. Much more solid. Not perfect, mind you, but I'll take "Darmok"
|over "Redemption II" any day.
I don't usually comment on particular episode reviews, but this is one of
those episodes you think about constantly for a few days after you watch it.
|Now _this_ was an intriguing idea, no doubt about it. I find the concept of a
|race which communicates only via imagery and metaphor a fascinating one, and
|that portion of it was extremely well done and well executed.
So much so that I found myself trying to solve the mystery along with
Picard as I watched. When you can become that involved in a mystery
(that's really what this was), you've got a hit on your hands.
|Just about all of the planetside scenes were truly amazing. It's incredibly
|frustrating not to be able to get your point across to someone even when they
|speak the _same_ language--to be in this situation with such a conceptual
|barrier facing you must be far more so, and Stewart managed to get that across
|strongly enough that I was really gritting my teeth and feeling it. (So was
|Winfield, actually--I shouldn't slight him. I think he did a far better job
|here than in "Star Trek II", to be honest.)
True, but Winfield didn't have all that much to do in STII -- he had so
little screen-time while not "under-the-influence" that he couldn't
build much character into Terrell -- and of course once the critter was
inside him, he became quite bland. Winfield had much more to work from
in this story.
|The plot was tight (I wish Riker'd been a bit less trigger-happy, but that's
|more a characterization goof than a plot goof), again most especially in the
|planetside scenes. Although some of the technobabble didn't thrill me, both
|of the end results (the shuttle sequence and the failed transport) were very
|nice indeed, especially the latter. Talk about your lousy timing...
I can imagine half of r.a.s shouting "arrgh!" with Picard at that moment.
[on various phrase meanings]
|(I'm still puzzling over "The river Temoc, in winter!", though.)
Haven't checked my tape yet, but did Dathon use that phrase sometime
after getting attacked by the energy creature?
|--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular mythos
|was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it. (Actually, I'm
|at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but I don't know most
|of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind you--just interesting.
I didn't know Gilgamesh, either -- but my first action after watching it
was dialing up my college library computer system to find a book on the
legend. I can just imagine some poor confused librarians next week:
"Alex, why are all these engineers checking out books on
ancient Babylonian mythology?"
|--That wonderful shot I referred to at the earlier was at the end, when we see
|Picard, at the window, grimly saluting Dathon. That image itself was pretty
|powerful, but somehow the warp-starfield reflecting on the window, making it
|look as though the stars are moving through Picard's face and uniform,
|absolutely blew me away. Marvelous piece of work. Kudos to Kolbe and to
|whomever else was responsible.
And the first time we've seen that shot since BOBWII, where it had another
powerful effect. Nice.
Jim Huggins
Timothy W. Lynch
>>WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
>>for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
>>said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
>>place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
>>presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would
>>seem to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of
>>pictures.)
>Doubt it,
Which one? And why?
>but one possibility is that only their spoken language is
>imagery.
Possible, I suppose, but it's implied that this is how they THINK, even,
so I doubt the written form would be much different.
>I also wondered how these folks ever did the mathematics
>necessary to build a starship.
Perhaps, as I've said, this form of communication slowly developed and
supplanted everything else. Once the technology exists, it doesn't strike
me as difficult to maintain it with this sort of culture.
>I never thought I'd see a plot like this. This was the first time on
>TV I've ever seen an attempt to portray aliens that are *truly* alien
>in the way they think.
I'm not certain it's the first I've seen, but they're definitely _very_ few and
far between.
>The whole problem with the Enterprise scenes was that it was on the
>order of "we'll make one or two feeble attempts, then start blasting".
Basically, yes.
>They could have easily sent down stuff down to Picard in probes, they
>could have sent out several shuttles, and put the planet between
>themselves and the Tamarians before decending (we know they can sense
>through planets, but we know they can't shoot through them). No way
>do I believe that the Tamarian pseudo-babble field extended over the
>entire planet.
Probably not...but as Josh has pointed out, the Tamarians could in all
probability easily take out some probes, etc. Still, it would have been
nice for them to make the effort.
>Well, here's another point that bothered me a little. They knew that
>Picard and the Tamarian were under attack, so why didn't they try to
>grab *both* of them?
Would _you_ grab a captain you believed at the time to possibly be an enemy?
Especially with that ship right off your bow?
>>TOTAL: 9.5, after rounding up for the music. Much, MUCH better.
>I wouldn't go nearly this high. It was about a 7 for me. Great idea,
>but the scenes in space brought it down. This was nowhere near YE or
>WWtW.
The shipboard scenes hurt, but not nearly that much. The focus was on the
planet, and that stuff was some of the best Trek I've seen.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>:)WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
>:)for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
>:)said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
>:)which I'm sure people will have is "how did they learn the myths in the
>:)first place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
>:)presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would
>:)seem to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of
>:)pictures.)
>I think the resolution of the conflict scene helped show this. Picard
>creates the phrase himself, the first officer of the other ship accepts the
>phrase, as well as the record log. I'm assuming the log contains a visual
>of what occured on the planet, and anyone who want to know what the phrase
>Picard created means can see a copy of this visual.
Good point. I hadn't made that connection, but it makes a lot of sense...
>:)--Troi's speech during her scene with Data was overblown, unfortunately as
>:)usual. She didn't get this way during "Loud As a Whisper", after all...
>Actually, I didn't think this was as bad as her speaches usually are.
It was better than some of them, to be sure, but it still stuck out.
>:)--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular
>:)mythos was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it.
>:)(Actually, I'm at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but
>:)I don't know most of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind
>:)you--just interesting.
>I think maybe the reason for this was that everyone is familiar with many of
>the Greek and Roman myths, as well as Shakespeare and other things. As you
>said, not may know more than who Gilgamesh was, and I think this shows
>Picard's broad knowledge of literature and stories even further.
That's certainly a possibility. That and the fact that it's just so old, as
Paul's noted, probably went into it.
>Uhhh... Tim? 26/3 = 8 2/3. rounding up would make a 9. :)
No, no, Josh. The music/FX/general production values are up to a full point
either way. This one got most of that point. :-)
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1991Oct3.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>|WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
>|for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
>|said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
>I don't usually comment on particular episode reviews, but this is one of
>those episodes you think about constantly for a few days after you watch it.
That it is, no doubt.
>|Now _this_ was an intriguing idea, no doubt about it. I find the concept of a
>|race which communicates only via imagery and metaphor a fascinating one, and
>|that portion of it was extremely well done and well executed.
>So much so that I found myself trying to solve the mystery along with
>Picard as I watched. When you can become that involved in a mystery
>(that's really what this was), you've got a hit on your hands.
Yep. Firmly agreed [glug, glug].
[on Paul Winfield's performance]
>|Winfield, actually--I shouldn't slight him. I think he did a far better job
>|here than in "Star Trek II", to be honest.)
>True, but Winfield didn't have all that much to do in STII
Quite so. The material helped, but I think he also might have just been in
better form here. (The fact that it was a larger role probably helped him
get more interested. :-) )
>|planetside scenes. Although some of the technobabble didn't thrill me, both
>|of the end results (the shuttle sequence and the failed transport) were very
>|nice indeed, especially the latter. Talk about your lousy timing...
>I can imagine half of r.a.s shouting "arrgh!" with Picard at that moment.
Yep. At least, I'm one.
>[on various phrase meanings]
>|(I'm still puzzling over "The river Temoc, in winter!", though.)
>Haven't checked my tape yet, but did Dathon use that phrase sometime
>after getting attacked by the energy creature?
Not to my knowledge. He used it to his exec, apparently to stifle opposition,
and Picard used it to shut up that same exec.
>|--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular mythos
>|was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it. (Actually, I'm
>|at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but I don't know
>|most of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind you--just
>|interesting.
>I didn't know Gilgamesh, either -- but my first action after watching it
>was dialing up my college library computer system to find a book on the
>legend. I can just imagine some poor confused librarians next week:
> "Alex, why are all these engineers checking out books on
> ancient Babylonian mythology?"
Heh. That'll puzzle 'em--it was weird enough to see how briskly _I, Claudius_
and _Claudius the God_ started moving in June, but this'll really knock 'em
for a loop.
[on the final shot]
>And the first time we've seen that shot since BOBWII, where it had another
>powerful effect. Nice.
The BOBW2 shot seemed somehow different to me--this one seemed better
executed. Similar concepts, though, to be sure.
Good heavens...we've got a net.consensus brewing here...
Tim Lynch
Paul J. Schinder
>schi...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul J. Schinder) writes:
>:)In <1991Oct3.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>:)>WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
>:)>for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
>:)>said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
>:)The whole problem with the Enterprise scenes was that it was on the
>:)order of "we'll make one or two feeble attempts, then start blasting".
>:)They could have easily sent down stuff down to Picard in probes, they
>:)could have sent out several shuttles, and put the planet between
>I think it can be assumed that any probes would get destroyed, and shuttles
>would suffer the same problems, if not worse. Sending out a shuttle was
>a test to see if the Tamarians would do anything, and what they did was
>the most they could without hurting anyone. The next step would be hurting
>someone.
That's why you use probes. You send out tens of them, to give the
Tamarians problems. If they attempt to shoot at several targets, then
the Enterprise can knock on their sheilds just to let them know that
they don't appreciate it. (Heck, use shielded probes so they can't
be easily hurt.) No personnel need be put in danger.
The immediate problem was to insure that Picard could survive on the
surface since they couldn't bring him back right away. A vigorous
attempt to send down a phaser, some matches, and some Earl Grey would
have been much more believable than the techno-weenie hand wringing
that they indulged in.
>:)themselves and the Tamarians before decending (we know they can sense
>:)through planets, but we know they can't shoot through them). No way
>And there all the Tamarians have to do is follow them in orbit.
So you send out several shuttles at widely varying points over the
planet. The Tamarians can't cover them all, especially if they're
worried about what the Enterprise might do.
>:)do I believe that the Tamarian pseudo-babble field extended over the
>:)entire planet.
>Why not? What's to prevent that from being the case?
I don't believe in the "pseudo-babble field that blocks off all forms
of communication" in the first place, but it sounded to me that it was
caused by some kind of beam striking a single point on the atmosphere.
>:)>The plot was tight (I wish Riker'd been a bit less trigger-happy, but that's
>:)>more a characterization goof than a plot goof), again most especially in the
>:)>planetside scenes. Although some of the technobabble didn't thrill me, both
>:)>of the end results (the shuttle sequence and the failed transport) were very
>:)>nice indeed, especially the latter. Talk about your lousy timing...
>:)Well, here's another point that bothered me a little. They knew that
>:)Picard and the Tamarian were under attack, so why didn't they try to
>:)grab *both* of them?
>Well, if the Tamarians grabbed Picard from the Enterprise, and Riker was
>struggling to get him back, why would he either a) waste efforts to try
>and get one of the ones he thought responsible for his kidnapping, or
>b) risk starting further problems by "kidnapping" their captain?
No, that's not the point. My impression was that the Enterprise
believed Picard to be in imminent danger from the "creature" (*why*
must they use those ridiculous energy beings all the time; why not a
simple carnivore?). If that's the case, then the Tamarian was in
danger, too, and then it's out of character for them *not* to attempt
to save the Tamarian, whether or not it looked like a kidnapping to
his ship, and whether or not the Tamarian captain was involved in
Picard's kidnapping.
>-Josh Laff :)
Paul J. Schinder
>schi...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul J. Schinder) writes:
>>In <1991Oct3.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>>WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
>>>for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
>>>said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
>>>place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
>>>presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would
>>>seem to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of
>>>pictures.)
>>Doubt it,
>Which one? And why?
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I doubt that you can pass along a
rich and complex mythology solely by pictures. For example, how would
you pictorially say "pon farr", and describe what happened to Spock in
"Amok Time"? It seems to me that the simplest solution is that the
Tamarians have another form of communication that we didn't see.
>>I also wondered how these folks ever did the mathematics
>>necessary to build a starship.
>Perhaps, as I've said, this form of communication slowly developed and
>supplanted everything else. Once the technology exists, it doesn't strike
>me as difficult to maintain it with this sort of culture.
Possibly not, but I'd wonder why they'd give up the previous communication
technique entirely.
>>Well, here's another point that bothered me a little. They knew that
>>Picard and the Tamarian were under attack, so why didn't they try to
>>grab *both* of them?
>Would _you_ grab a captain you believed at the time to possibly be an enemy?
>Especially with that ship right off your bow?
Yes, if he was in danger. At least that's how I'd expect the crew of
the Enterprise to act.
>Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>In <1991Oct3.2...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
Spoilers for "Darmok":
>Sorry, I should have been clearer. I doubt that you can pass along a
>rich and complex mythology solely by pictures.
*Not* solely by pictures...by pictures and appropriately phrased captions.
I've been speaking with Mike Shappe about this in email, and there's a para-
graph he wrote that seems to deal with this nicely. Take it away, Mikey...
============================================================================
(I wrote:)
[(One question
[which I'm sure people will have is "how did they learn the myths in the first
[place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
[presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would seem
[to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of pictures.)
(Mikey responds:)
I was thinking about this one...it seems to me that, on Terra, the
earliest form of written communication was pictoral--indeed, every
form of writing in existence today can be traced back to a more directly
symbolic stage in someone else's culture. Spoken language, one assumes,
was more advanced--so that even when the Egyptians were still using
Heiroglyphics--a very symbolic and culture-dependent coding system--their
actual spoken *language* was probably fairly complex.
Now, envision instead the reverse: a culture who develops a highly
complex WRITTEN language, but retains a wholly symbolic SPOKEN one...
Just a thought.
===========================================================================
Good one too, I think.
Getting back to Paul...
>For example, how would
>you pictorially say "pon farr", and describe what happened to Spock in
>"Amok Time"?
Okay. Here's part of it:
Picture of Spock hurling the plomeek soup back at Chapel. "Spock, his passions
raging."
Picture of Spock and T'pring talking over the viewscreen. "Spock, his waiting
ended."
T'pring calling for the challenge. "T'pring at her wedding."
T'pring choosing Kirk. "T'Pring, her finger pointing. Kirk, his eyes wide."
Spock and Kirk fighting. "Kirk and Spock...at Vulcan."
And so forth. I can't get all of it down off the top of my head, but I
think it's easily doable.
>It seems to me that the simplest solution is that the
>Tamarians have another form of communication that we didn't see.
See Mikey's statement above.
>>>Well, here's another point that bothered me a little. They knew that
>>>Picard and the Tamarian were under attack, so why didn't they try to
>>>grab *both* of them?
>>Would _you_ grab a captain you believed at the time to possibly be an enemy?
>>Especially with that ship right off your bow?
>Yes, if he was in danger. At least that's how I'd expect the crew of
>the Enterprise to act.
If they thought they could somehow manage to get across to the Tamarians that
this wasn't an aggressive act, yes. But you can't even speak to them--best
to leave it as alone as you can while protecting your own.
Tim Lynch
John S. Novak III
I have NO idea whether or not my system includes page breaks
correctly, so I'm going to leave Tim's intact, and add 30 blank lines
of my own. NO one deserves to have this episode spoiled.
>Now *that's* more like it.
>Dathon is sorely battered. Picard moves to help--and is promptly seized by a
>transporter beam. The beam isn't strong enough to get him, though, and Picard
>(who screamed out *against* the beam when it came) is returned to the surface,
>just in time to see the creature vanish, and Dathon fall unconscious.
>Now _this_ was an intriguing idea, no doubt about it. I find the concept of a
>race which communicates only via imagery and metaphor a fascinating one, and
>that portion of it was extremely well done and well executed. (One question
>which I'm sure people will have is "how did they learn the myths in the first
>place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
>presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would seem
>to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of pictures.)
Interesting question-- certainly the language would be harder to learn
B
for an infant than learning a Terran toungue. Perhaps the children
would be easier to communicate with than the adults, having learned
the meanings of many key phrases but not actually associating them
consciously with myths.
Of course, with advanced technology, they could simply show movies
with a little voice-over in the the background, identifying nouns and
such. Gads, a language with no verbs...! Beats me how they REALLY
learn their language.
Also, we only scratch the surface of their language, the equivalent of
the English, "Darmok meets Jilad. Darmok and Jilad fight critter."
If English were that limited no one would speak it. There are
undoubtadly inflections and such that imply _how_ a metaphor is to be
applied, much like Latin, where inflective endings imply what each
word's function is.
Admiration of Concept Time-- This language must be incredibly rich and
imaginative. I could learn to love that language, and I have all the
linguistic capacity of a brick. And imagine the linguistic drift-- I
would imagine that the phrase "Picard and Dathon, at El Adril," could
be a standard phrase for first contact experts among the Children of
Tamaar in several years.
>I'll get the gripes out of the way early this time. Most of the scenes on
>board the Enterprise didn't work very well for me. Primarily, Riker was
>WAAAAAY too hostile and quick on the trigger this time around. Now, that
>isn't necessarily a problem--I was expecting towards the end that Picard would
>probably speak to Riker about it at the end. Unfortunately, we're given no
>indication that this was anything but the best course of action. I don't
>agree. It happened to work, but it was lucky at best.
I dunno. I could really sympathize with Riker on that respect. After
all, his captain was just kidnapped by a powerful race for no apparent
reason. What irritated me most about Riker was his "I don't care if
its impossible, do it anyway," attitude with Geordie. Some things
simply take time, and someone breathing down your neck, especially
someone who doesn't understand the problems involved, doesn;t help the
situation. (Thus speaks the engineering student...)
It worked for Kirk, but it doesn't seem to work for Riker. I was
personally itching for Geordie to turn around and explain the facts to
Riker...
>--The technobabble was at a much higher and a much less relevant level than
>usual, both in the shuttle and in Engineering. I was something less than
>impressed. :-)
Hammond, in the lecture class, his numbers meaningless.
Oh, sorry, you wouldn't understand that unless I told you that one of
my profs tends to drop his units from his developing equations during
his lectures, which drives me bananas, would you? }I-)
And that's what they did this episode-- I don't think I heard a single
technobabble phrase with any units at all after the numbers. Urg.
>--Troi's speech during her scene with Data was overblown, unfortunately as
>usual. She didn't get this way during "Loud As a Whisper", after all...
I thought almost every line Troi uttered was wasted.
"The Captain could be dead by then!"
"Thanks, Troi. Way to steady our nerves down here in engineering,
know what I mean?"
>Just about all of the planetside scenes were truly amazing. It's incredibly
>frustrating not to be able to get your point across to someone even when they
>speak the _same_ language--to be in this situation with such a conceptual
>barrier facing you must be far more so, and Stewart managed to get that across
>strongly enough that I was really gritting my teeth and feeling it. (So was
>Winfield, actually--I shouldn't slight him. I think he did a far better job
>here than in "Star Trek II", to be honest.)
Excellent acting and scripting and directing, on every planet-side
scene I remember.
>The plot was tight (I wish Riker'd been a bit less trigger-happy, but that's
>more a characterization goof than a plot goof), again most especially in the
>planetside scenes. Although some of the technobabble didn't thrill me, both
>of the end results (the shuttle sequence and the failed transport) were very
>nice indeed, especially the latter. Talk about your lousy timing...
Indeed! I was fighting the urge to scream at the screen, telling them
that it they can't beam him the hell up, then let him bloody loose...!
On the other hand, what would have happened if Worf's team would have
landed? "There is the alien captain! Halt!" Dathon looks confused,
and keeps doing something, and Worf wastes him. Perhaps the Children
of Tamaar are wiser than they appear.
> I must confess that I didn't figure out what "Darmok and Jilad
>at Tanagra" meant much before we were told, but that's mostly because I wasn't
>hearing it as an "and Jilad", but rather as an "Anjilad", which caused major
>confusion. :-)
I was watching with seven friends, so we were pretty much ahead of
Picard, once we got the general concept. Before that, though, I was
arguing that "Temba" was just timber, as in the wood from which the
torch was made...
>--Looooove that new outfit of Picard's. I want one of the jackets. :-)
I like it too. I wish I knew what it meant.
Theory-- The only people that I've seen with truly non standard
uniforms have been the admirals. Did Picard get a brevet promotion
that stuck? Somehow, I think not, since his rank insignia was still
that of a Captain.
>--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular mythos
>was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it. (Actually, I'm
>at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but I don't know most
>of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind you--just interesting.
A friend of mine suggested right off that Picard would tell a
Gilgamesh story. I convinced him that it would be the Iliad.
On reflection, though, the story, and the Tamaarian legends _did_ sem
to have an older feel than Greecian, hearkening back to the almost
hunter-gatherer state. Besides, the Gilgamesh and Enkidu seemed to
fit the situation, and demonstrated that Picard reallt _did_
understand how to apply the language.
e
>--That wonderful shot I referred to at the earlier was at the end, when we see
>Picard, at the window, grimly saluting Dathon. That image itself was pretty
>powerful, but somehow the warp-starfield reflecting on the window, making it
>look as though the stars are moving through Picard's face and uniform,
>absolutely blew me away. Marvelous piece of work. Kudos to Kolbe and to
>whomever else was responsible.
Agreed.
>"Temoc! The river Temoc--in winter!"
Did this line appear anywhere else in the episode? I can't really
remember it from anywhere else. If not, perhaps it means something
like, "Freeze your tears-- he fulfilled his life in our friendship."
Or, since the second was quite upset, perhaps, "Cool your passion,
slow your actions-- Darmok is successful."
I dunno.
>"Temba...at rest." [they depart]
"Just keep it-- Temba sleeps, and will not take it."
>Anyhoo, the numbers:
>TOTAL: 9.5, after rounding up for the music. Much, MUCH better.
Heh. I don't give numbers, since mine would be in a
pseudo-logarhythmic form, where a ten is unattainable.
}I-)
--
John S. Novak, III dark...@buhub.bradley.edu
"Stephen J. Patrick, director of computing services, claims that he
wishes to maintain freedom of speech over the system. The only case
in which direct action would be taken would be when something inap-
propriate would be placed in the notes."
Paul J. Schinder
>schi...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul J. Schinder) writes:
>>In <1991Oct3.2...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>Spoilers for "Darmok":
>>Sorry, I should have been clearer. I doubt that you can pass along a
>>rich and complex mythology solely by pictures.
>*Not* solely by pictures...by pictures and appropriately phrased captions.
But phrased in what language? It seems you're agreeing that they have
some other language to describe the content of the picture.
>>For example, how would
>>you pictorially say "pon farr", and describe what happened to Spock in
>>"Amok Time"?
>Okay. Here's part of it:
>Picture of Spock hurling the plomeek soup back at Chapel. "Spock, his passions
>raging."
>Picture of Spock and T'pring talking over the viewscreen. "Spock, his waiting
>ended."
>T'pring calling for the challenge. "T'pring at her wedding."
>T'pring choosing Kirk. "T'Pring, her finger pointing. Kirk, his eyes wide."
>Spock and Kirk fighting. "Kirk and Spock...at Vulcan."
>And so forth. I can't get all of it down off the top of my head, but I
>think it's easily doable.
I was thinking more of the biological changes that McCoy was
indicating. The story can obviously be done pictorially, since that's
how it was shown to us, but imagine watching it with the sound off.
How, for example, does one say "hormonal imbalance" ("Hulk, really
pissed off"? :-)).
That they can get simple concepts pictorially I can easily see. But
how do they say "electron"? Maybe only in written form, I guess.
Imagine a colloquium on Tamaria :-)
>>>Would _you_ grab a captain you believed at the time to possibly be an enemy?
>>>Especially with that ship right off your bow?
>>Yes, if he was in danger. At least that's how I'd expect the crew of
>>the Enterprise to act.
>If they thought they could somehow manage to get across to the Tamarians that
>this wasn't an aggressive act, yes. But you can't even speak to them--best
>to leave it as alone as you can while protecting your own.
No, because *both* are in imminent danger. If necessary, scram when
you're finished, but try to save both lives. (A believable sequence
would have been something like Riker saying "Geordi, can we get them
both?" "No Commander, we don't have the <insert technobabble here>."
"Worf, get down to the transporter room, and grab a phaser and
survival kit on the way. O'Brian, transport Lt. Worf down as soon as
you have the captain." Then as shown. At least they would have
tried.)
I never had the feeling that what the Tamarians did was hostile up
until the time they fried the shuttlecraft (which shouldn't have
happened the way it did). Kidnapping is not the word for what they
did; kidnapping would have been taking Picard off his bridge onto the
Tamarian ship and warping out. It was clear that they *were*
attempting to communicate at the beginning. They were difficult to
understand, but that's all, and there was no reason for Riker to
assume them hostile (up to the first shot), since he knew that Picard
was safe enough. In any event, we've seen the Enterprise go out of
its way saving people *known* to be hostile.
Joy Haftel
(Timothy W. Lynch) says:
*Spoiler Warning*
>--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular mythos
>was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it. (Actually, I'm
>at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but I don't know most
>of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind you--just interesting.
I was *very* pleased with the use of this myth as opposed to any other.
The writers for this show finally impressed me, for this was the *perfect*
myth. With the caveat that I don't know the story of Gilgamesh outside of
what Picard told the dying captain, let me explain.
Picard told of Gilgamesh and his friend fighting the Bull of Heaven, in
which battle Eknidu (sp?) was killed. It ended with Gilgamesh speaking
to and mourning his beloved friend and companion in battle. Picard is not
only drawing a subtle parallel to the experience he and the dying
captain have gone through, but is also offering an *Earth* myth as a
way of speaking about it. I thought it was a brilliant touch.
I also thought it was interesting that Picard was reading the Homeric
Hymns as opposed to the Iliad which I would have expected. I'll have
to check them out--preferrably in translation :). (Although I can vouch
that it can take as few as 3 semesters of college Greek to get to Homer,
few people do it without a dictionary and a lot of spare time).
Joy Haftel "Pure and complete sorrow is as impossible
JKH107@PSUVM as pure and complete joy."--Tolstoy
tony murray
spoiler, here is a just-in-case control-l. :)
A friend of mine who watched the episode (and liked it) thought it was
rather unlikely that a race that communicated the way the
Tamarians (sp?) did could achieve the highly sophisticated level of
technology required for space travel, warp drive, etc. I'm not sure
I agree with the suggestion in Tim's post that their written language
would vary THAT much from their spoken one...to the point where their
written language would contain such essential (to us) concepts as
"I" and "you" and their spoken language would completely ignore these
concepts.
If their spoken and written languages were different from each
other (and this is getting back to my point), all scientific or
mathematical discussions (anything which was speculative or
theoretical about technology that was yet to be) would have
to proceed in writing. For a humanoid race which seems to use
speech as much as humans do, that doesn't seem feasible.
Any thoughts on this?
--
--Tony Murray (tmu...@socrates.umd.edu)
"I like when they talk real loud trying to tell you what they know."
-MwoH
Timothy W. Lynch
jal4...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mr. Smiley Face) writes:
>schi...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul J. Schinder) writes:
Spoilers for "Darmok":
>:)I don't believe in the "pseudo-babble field that blocks off all forms
>:)of communication" in the first place, but it sounded to me that it was
>:)caused by some kind of beam striking a single point on the atmosphere.
>Okay... how about if the atmosphere is used as a medium to help make
>this field surround the planet?
Not at all likely. You've got power demands on the ship, you've got shifting
weather patterns on the planet, etc. I think it's very likely that this was a
local phenomenon. (I'd be more inclined, however, as an alternate "out", to
believe that it was basically a large hemisphere surrounding the section of
the planet with Picard and Dathon on it, so that going around becomes
impossible.)
And now, more on the infamous "The river Temoc, in winter" question.
I received a marvelously good observation from Toni Moore in email today.
The first point was one we've already seen, that it probably means, in
effect, "keep yer trap shut, I'm in charge". (I'd still like to see some sort
of mythological basis for this, but it could just be that Temoc is a mythical
river, like Styx.)
However, she also points out that just before both captains are beamed down,
Dathon says "The river Temoc," without any qualification whatsoever. A normal
river flows--could this be their "well, let's get going with this" concept,
rather like "Make it so"?
Innnnnnteresting...
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>In <1991Oct4.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>Spoilers for "Darmok":
>>>Sorry, I should have been clearer. I doubt that you can pass along a
>>>rich and complex mythology solely by pictures.
>>*Not* solely by pictures...by pictures and appropriately phrased captions.
>But phrased in what language? It seems you're agreeing that they have
>some other language to describe the content of the picture.
No...phrased in the manner of the language we've already heard. "Images" is
a far better word than "pictures" in this context, I think.
>>>For example, how would
>>>you pictorially say "pon farr", and describe what happened to Spock in
>>>"Amok Time"?
[my example deleted]
>>And so forth. I can't get all of it down off the top of my head, but I
>>think it's easily doable.
>I was thinking more of the biological changes that McCoy was
>indicating. The story can obviously be done pictorially, since that's
>how it was shown to us, but imagine watching it with the sound off.
With a few statements here and there when the scene changes, it's easily
comprehensible. I don't see the problem. (The biological changes are a
different issue--I think there probably is a more complex _written_ language,
as I said earlier.)
>Imagine a colloquium on Tamaria :-)
Ye gads.
As for whether they should have tried to transport Dathon as well...I think
we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
>I never had the feeling that what the Tamarians did was hostile up
>until the time they fried the shuttlecraft (which shouldn't have
>happened the way it did).
I completely agree with that, which is why I've been coming down on Riker. But
since the transporter trick wasn't tried until well after that, it doesn't
seem relevant.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>Timothy W. Lynch writes:
>I have NO idea whether or not my system includes page breaks
>correctly, so I'm going to leave Tim's intact, and add 30 blank lines
>of my own. NO one deserves to have this episode spoiled.
It kept, don't worry.
>>place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
>>presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would
>>seem to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of
>>pictures.)
[...]
>Of course, with advanced technology, they could simply show movies
>with a little voice-over in the the background, identifying nouns and
>such. Gads, a language with no verbs...! Beats me how they REALLY
>learn their language.
That may be the point. If they think *that* differently from us, isn't it a
little egocentric for us all to be assuming that we can somehow figure out how
they learned it all?
>Also, we only scratch the surface of their language, the equivalent of
>the English, "Darmok meets Jilad. Darmok and Jilad fight critter."
>If English were that limited no one would speak it. There are
>undoubtadly inflections and such that imply _how_ a metaphor is to be
>applied, much like Latin, where inflective endings imply what each
>word's function is.
Absolutely, yes.
>>--The technobabble was at a much higher and a much less relevant level than
>>usual, both in the shuttle and in Engineering. I was something less than
>>impressed. :-)
>Hammond, in the lecture class, his numbers meaningless.
Students, their mouths open, their eyes closed. :-)
>And that's what they did this episode-- I don't think I heard a single
>technobabble phrase with any units at all after the numbers. Urg.
Aside from "250 kilometers from the surface", I don't believe there were, no.
Double urg.
>On the other hand, what would have happened if Worf's team would have
>landed? "There is the alien captain! Halt!" Dathon looks confused,
>and keeps doing something, and Worf wastes him. Perhaps the Children
>of Tamaar are wiser than they appear.
:-) Could be. 'Twould depend on where Picard was during this, though--he
would almost undoubtedly rein Worf in, and they'd have no reason to seek out
Dathon *first*.
>I was watching with seven friends, so we were pretty much ahead of
>Picard, once we got the general concept. Before that, though, I was
>arguing that "Temba" was just timber, as in the wood from which the
>torch was made...
You thought that too, hmm? Glad to see it wasn't just me. :-)
>A friend of mine suggested right off that Picard would tell a
>Gilgamesh story. I convinced him that it would be the Iliad.
Whoops. :-)
>On reflection, though, the story, and the Tamaarian legends _did_ sem
>to have an older feel than Greecian, hearkening back to the almost
>hunter-gatherer state.
Agreed--and that's probably why a few people are saying that the race probably
"shouldn't" be above Bronze Age level. Same feel to it. Of course, if the
race is *that* alien, there's no reason to think that they progressed in the
same way...
>>"Temoc! The river Temoc--in winter!"
>Did this line appear anywhere else in the episode? I can't really
>remember it from anywhere else. If not, perhaps it means something
>like, "Freeze your tears-- he fulfilled his life in our friendship."
It did--Dathon used it on his exec while they were arguing.
>Or, since the second was quite upset, perhaps, "Cool your passion,
>slow your actions-- Darmok is successful."
That's probably the gist of the statement, but I'm trying to think up a
surrounding story for it...
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>Since the topic contained herein may be considered by some to be a
>spoiler, here is a just-in-case control-l. :)
>I'm not sure
>I agree with the suggestion in Tim's post that their written language
>would vary THAT much from their spoken one...to the point where their
>written language would contain such essential (to us) concepts as
>"I" and "you" and their spoken language would completely ignore these
>concepts.
Why would a written language _need_ them, necessarily? Not for scientific
examples--read a few papers sometime to see how much is in the active voice.
:-)
>If their spoken and written languages were different from each
>other (and this is getting back to my point), all scientific or
>mathematical discussions (anything which was speculative or
>theoretical about technology that was yet to be) would have
>to proceed in writing. For a humanoid race which seems to use
>speech as much as humans do, that doesn't seem feasible.
Ah, but we don't _know_ that they use speech that much among themselves.
Since *we* use speech so greatly, they may have tried to do the same.
Tim Lynch
Mr. Smiley Face
:)>schi...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul J. Schinder) writes:
:)>:)In <1991Oct3.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
:)>:)>WARNING: This article, not unexpectedly, contains large amounts of spoilers
:)>:)>for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
:)>:)>said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
:)>:)The whole problem with the Enterprise scenes was that it was on the
:)>:)order of "we'll make one or two feeble attempts, then start blasting".
:)>:)They could have easily sent down stuff down to Picard in probes, they
:)>:)could have sent out several shuttles, and put the planet between
:)>I think it can be assumed that any probes would get destroyed, and shuttles
:)>would suffer the same problems, if not worse. Sending out a shuttle was
:)>a test to see if the Tamarians would do anything, and what they did was
:)>the most they could without hurting anyone. The next step would be hurting
:)>someone.
:)That's why you use probes. You send out tens of them, to give the
:)Tamarians problems. If they attempt to shoot at several targets, then
:)the Enterprise can knock on their sheilds just to let them know that
:)they don't appreciate it. (Heck, use shielded probes so they can't
:)be easily hurt.) No personnel need be put in danger.
If the shots that came off the Tamarian vessel were accurate enough to
force the shuttle to return in *one* shot, do you really think they'd have
a problem shooting at probes that don't run evasive maneuvers? And firing
on the enemy at that point would have been even more trigger happy than
people are already saying.
:)The immediate problem was to insure that Picard could survive on the
:)surface since they couldn't bring him back right away. A vigorous
:)attempt to send down a phaser, some matches, and some Earl Grey would
:)have been much more believable than the techno-weenie hand wringing
:)that they indulged in.
First of all, there's too much time constraint. Second, I'm sure Riker
assumed, as would I, that if a shuttle can be forced to return in one shot,
then they would have no problems destroying anything unmaned.
:)>:)themselves and the Tamarians before decending (we know they can sense
:)>:)through planets, but we know they can't shoot through them). No way
:)>And there all the Tamarians have to do is follow them in orbit.
:)So you send out several shuttles at widely varying points over the
:)planet. The Tamarians can't cover them all, especially if they're
:)worried about what the Enterprise might do.
I think you're trying to carry this a bit far. One orbit sweep can cover
where all the shuttles would go. And if they started sending out lots o
shuttles, the Tamarians would just start firing on them sooner (remember
they waited a little bit before firing on the shuttle). Yeah, they could
then come up with the plan of sending out every shuttle and probe they
have, but this would start to get a little silly, especially for a star
trek episode.
:)>:)do I believe that the Tamarian pseudo-babble field extended over the
:)>:)entire planet.
:)>Why not? What's to prevent that from being the case?
:)I don't believe in the "pseudo-babble field that blocks off all forms
:)of communication" in the first place, but it sounded to me that it was
:)caused by some kind of beam striking a single point on the atmosphere.
Okay... how about if the atmosphere is used as a medium to help make
this field surround the planet?
:)>:)Well, here's another point that bothered me a little. They knew that
:)>:)Picard and the Tamarian were under attack, so why didn't they try to
:)>:)grab *both* of them?
:)>Well, if the Tamarians grabbed Picard from the Enterprise, and Riker was
:)>struggling to get him back, why would he either a) waste efforts to try
:)>and get one of the ones he thought responsible for his kidnapping, or
:)>b) risk starting further problems by "kidnapping" their captain?
:)No, that's not the point. My impression was that the Enterprise
:)believed Picard to be in imminent danger from the "creature" (*why*
:)must they use those ridiculous energy beings all the time; why not a
The energy creature here is more justified than in any other situation...
It was actually *chosen* by the other captain. I'm sure he saw the
invisiblity of the beast as something much harder to defeat than a normal
carnivore.
:)simple carnivore?). If that's the case, then the Tamarian was in
:)danger, too, and then it's out of character for them *not* to attempt
:)to save the Tamarian, whether or not it looked like a kidnapping to
:)his ship, and whether or not the Tamarian captain was involved in
:)Picard's kidnapping.
Tim's point added well to this. I'm not gonna beem up the other captain,
with the possibility of it looking like a kidnapping, with the other
vessel right of the side of the ship, especially when the Tamarians appear
more powerful, and I can't even *explain* why I beemed up their captain.
Tony Minkoff
>I'm looking forward to many an argument over precisely what various
>statements mean. :-)
The impression I got was that the river Temoc was a powerful river,
but in the winter it freezes over. I think this was Picard's way of
saying, "Captain Dathon is dead."-- i.e., the powerful Tamarean who
was your captain is dead, his body cold and unmoving, much like the
river Temoc in winter. (The question, of course, is how did
_Picard_ know this little bit of Tamarean culture? Could it be a
scene which did not survive the final cut?)
I've got to hand it to the Tamareans-- that's a lot of
emotionally charged imagery to get across in such a short sentence.
Could we do the same? I'd love to see more of the Tamareans, but it
must be very difficult for a human to write.
Other thoughts:
I think the resemblance of the Tamareans to Lou Gosset, Jr., in
"Enemy Mine" is unfortunate. It invites a bad analogy. While there
is _some_ validity to the analogy-- Picard was rather distrusting of
the Tamarean captain at first, and eventually learned to trust him--
the main challenge here was to learn to communicate, rather than to
learn not to hate. The obvious connection to "Enemy Mine" was,
therefore, somewhat distracting.
The resemblance of the creature to the "Predator" is also kind
of annoying. The make-up and effects people really have not shown a
lot of originiality since TNG began.
I was really disappointed in Riker's actions. Firing on the
Tamarean ship and risking war, all to save one man, even your
captain, is unforgiveable.
Otherwise, I thought it was an excellent episode.
Tony Minkoff
Dave Schaumann
>Since the topic contained herein may be considered by some to be a
>spoiler, here is a just-in-case control-l. :)
>
>A friend of mine who watched the episode (and liked it) thought it was
>rather unlikely that a race that communicated the way the
>Tamarians (sp?) did could achieve the highly sophisticated level of
>technology required for space travel, warp drive, etc.
This objection has been raised many times, and while I don't necessarily
agree with it, there is an obvious explanation if it is so...
Maybe they didn't develop sophisticated technology. Maybe someone sold
it to them. Not everyone has the Prime Directive to deal with.
Also, you might like to consider that most of physics is understood (in
part, at least) on a metaphor level -- for instance, there's the model
of the atom that is very like planets circling a sun <-> electrons
circling a nucleus. Seems to me in this instance, having a strong
concept of metaphor would help understanding and discovery, not hinder it.
--
_
_ //\miga! | The persons and events in this post are fictitious. Any
\X/~~\ | similarity to actual persons or events is unintentional.
Timothy W. Lynch
>(Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
Spoilers for "Darmok" ahead...
>>I'm still puzzling over "The river Temoc, in winter!"
>The impression I got was that the river Temoc was a powerful river,
>but in the winter it freezes over. I think this was Picard's way of
>saying, "Captain Dathon is dead."-- i.e., the powerful Tamarean who
>was your captain is dead, his body cold and unmoving, much like the
>river Temoc in winter. (The question, of course, is how did
>_Picard_ know this little bit of Tamarean culture? Could it be a
>scene which did not survive the final cut?)
It can't be that specific, as Dathon uses it at the beginning to silence his
first, before anyone is dead. The closest thing I think I've seen so far is
probably "be still".
And the fact that it was said before both captains beamed off also explains
how Picard knew it. Hell of a memory that man has...:-)
Your "Enemy Mine" comments are probably well taken...but since I've never
seen the film, I couldn't judge. :-)
Tim Lynch
Albert Crosby
Hopefully, that worked. Just in case...
I haven't yet seen Darmok (oh the woes of not resisting spoilers! :-)), but
here's a thought/question.
Several people have asked "Well, how would they learn the stories in the first
place?"
Is it possible that the attempts we see at communication in Darmok are just
that - attempts? That we're really NOT seeing how the aliens communicate with
each other. That, in fact, their thought processes are so different that we
simply couldn't. Instead, the aliens are making a tremendous effort to
communicate with the Federation. The "metaphor language" is simply the
closest means they have discovered to share their thought processes, etc.
with us.
I can't wait to see this one! I may have to do a mini-review of my own... A
sort of "after the spoilers review".
--
Albert L. Crosby Why me?
acr...@uafhp.uark.edu Because someone cared.
Michael Rawdon
>for this week's TNG episode, "Darmok". Those not wishing to be exposed to
>said spoilers are advised to skip this article at the present time.
>Now *that's* more like it.
And I think I liked it even better than you did. :-)
>Much better. Much more solid. Not perfect, mind you, but I'll take "Darmok"
>over "Redemption II" any day. Details on why will follow, after this synopsis
>from your local station:
We'll see how my feelings about the show withstand the usual r.a.s review
onslaught :-) but I might just be willing to call it "perfect". TNG might
have just broken into my top ten. (Hell, it may have broken into my top
THREE. Naw; I don't want to overstate myself TOO much. :-)
[Synopsis deleted.]
>Now _this_ was an intriguing idea, no doubt about it. I find the concept of a
>race which communicates only via imagery and metaphor a fascinating one, and
>that portion of it was extremely well done and well executed. (One question
>which I'm sure people will have is "how did they learn the myths in the first
>place, and how do the myths get passed on?" The answer to the former,
>presumably, is that they didn't always communicate this way, and it would seem
>to me that the myths could easily be passed along in a series of pictures.)
That question didn't even occur to me, and I think you're giving it more
thought than it deserves. :-) This race had such a convincingly alien
culture that I can easily imagine the language structure developing fitfully
without a need for an intermediate mode of conceptual representation. Once
they have the nouns and the verbs, then they can easily convey the ideas of
new experiences in terms of the old (especially if they evolved from a close-
knit tribal society where groups of people would tend to share experiences),
and the myths developed from there.
>I'll get the gripes out of the way early this time. Most of the scenes on
>board the Enterprise didn't work very well for me. Primarily, Riker was
>WAAAAAY too hostile and quick on the trigger this time around. Now, that
>isn't necessarily a problem--I was expecting towards the end that Picard would
>probably speak to Riker about it at the end. Unfortunately, we're given no
>indication that this was anything but the best course of action. I don't
>agree. It happened to work, but it was lucky at best.
Well, yes, it was lucky, but I'm curious as to what else you would have had
Riker do. The thing's already killed one person, and it appears to be
seconds away from killing Picard...
>That was the biggest problem with the Enterprise scenes. Other, smaller ones
>are:
>--The technobabble was at a much higher and a much less relevant level than
>usual, both in the shuttle and in Engineering. I was something less than
>impressed. :-)
Didn't bother me, for some reason.
>--Troi's speech during her scene with Data was overblown, unfortunately as
>usual. She didn't get this way during "Loud As a Whisper", after all...
Yeah, it was Not Too Good. But in final review, it was also trivial when
scaled against the rest of the episode. Very trivial.
>They narrowly missed a couple of other objections, too. At first, I was
>really annoyed that Troi and Data managed to figure out as much as they did
>and as quickly. It's still slightly annoying, but I think what they did
>figure out was somewhat understandable--once the commonality came up, they
>probably checked other words in the recorded exchange as well, and presumably
>found lots of other mythological connections. If they'd managed to figure out
>the rest and actually gotten through to them, I'd have been annoyed--but as it
>is, I'll let 'em get away with it. :-)
I wasn't annoyed at all, largely because I'd already started unraveling some
of the language mystery. I'd figured out that the Captain's idea was a
"friendship forged in the fires of common survival" one before this scene,
for instance, and learning that Darmok was a person and Telagra a place
pretty much confirmed my suspicions.
[...]
>Now that I've gotten my objections out of the way, let's talk about the _good_
>things here...
>Just about all of the planetside scenes were truly amazing. It's incredibly
>frustrating not to be able to get your point across to someone even when they
>speak the _same_ language--to be in this situation with such a conceptual
>barrier facing you must be far more so, and Stewart managed to get that across
>strongly enough that I was really gritting my teeth and feeling it. (So was
>Winfield, actually--I shouldn't slight him. I think he did a far better job
>here than in "Star Trek II", to be honest.)
I disagree; I think he was quite good in both roles. This was emphasized for
me by the fact that I couldn't make out any resemblance between him here
and him in TWOK (even accounting for the make-up).
>The plot was tight (I wish Riker'd been a bit less trigger-happy, but that's
>more a characterization goof than a plot goof),
I really just don't see Riker as having been trigger-happy. Quite the
opposite, in fact. He really did seem to leave violence until there wasn't
any other option.
> again most especially in the
>planetside scenes. Although some of the technobabble didn't thrill me, both
>of the end results (the shuttle sequence and the failed transport) were very
>nice indeed, especially the latter. Talk about your lousy timing...
Picard's reaction was great, too.
>I'm happy to say that Winrich Kolbe has *finally* turned in a superb directing
>effort. He's been steadily improving (of course, from "Galaxy's Child", it's
>hard not to go up :-) ), but this is the first one that really felt right. In
>his last effort, "Identity Crisis", I'd said that although he pulled off the
>eerie scenes quite handily, the "normal" scenes seemed stiff. Not so
>here--the Picard/Dathon scenes were easily the best of the show. (There's one
>particular shot which beats it, actually, but I'll get to that later.)
>What really fascinated me, though (enough so that I was pausing the VCR
>repeatedly during my synopsis rewatching to try to figure stuff out), was how
>much of the Tamarian language and culture the show managed to get across in so
>short a time. I must confess that I didn't figure out what "Darmok and Jilad
>at Tanagra" meant much before we were told, but that's mostly because I wasn't
>hearing it as an "and Jilad", but rather as an "Anjilad", which caused major
>confusion. :-) But the Tamarian language strikes me as a rich and vivid one,
>and I'm looking forward to many an argument over precisely what various
>statements mean. :-) (I think some are a given--"Mirab, with sails unfurled"
>almost undoubtedly is some sort of "let's get the hell out of here" comment,
>and "Chaka, when the walls fell" and "Temba, his arms open" are both fairly
>straightforward. I'm still puzzling over "The river Temoc, in winter!",
>though.)
I haven't figured out a lot of the lesser ones. It'd be interesting to
see the WHOLE interactions with the aliens transcribed to the net, though, for
me/us to analyze.
But yes, the alien culture was conveyed really well. And boy did it seem
alien!
>Miscellaneous short bits--
>--Looooove that new outfit of Picard's. I want one of the jackets. :-)
Me, too. :-)
>--Obligatory Donaldson reference: Okay, who else was reminded of Covenant's
>aborted summoning to the Land in _The Power That Preserves_ when Picard was
>caught up in the failed transport?
Not me; 95% of the people I know who read those books loathe them with a
passion, so I haven't read 'em.
[...]
>--And about Gilgamesh--I'm a little bit surprised that that particular mythos
>was chosen. I doubt most of the audience will recognize it. (Actually, I'm
>at something of a loss myself--I know who Gilgamesh was, but I don't know most
>of that set of legends.) Not a complaint at all, mind you--just interesting.
I haven't read them either, but Jim Starlin's graphic limited series
Gilgamesh II meshed (pardon the pun :-) very closely with the story that
Picard told, so I have a grasp of the basic ideas.
Of course, part of the point of the story was that we should have a better
understanding of our myths to understand our culture, so maybe we'd better
pull our noses out of our science fiction and start reading some ancient
Greek! :-)
>--That wonderful shot I referred to at the earlier was at the end, when we see
>Picard, at the window, grimly saluting Dathon. That image itself was pretty
>powerful, but somehow the warp-starfield reflecting on the window, making it
>look as though the stars are moving through Picard's face and uniform,
>absolutely blew me away. Marvelous piece of work. Kudos to Kolbe and to
>whomever else was responsible.
It also reminded me of the last shot of Picard at the end of BOBW2.
>--The music was once again by Jay Chattaway the Underused and Underrated, and
>was superb. Bits of it reminded me of Courage's original TOS theme (and in
>all the right places, too), and other bits of it reminded me of the best music
>out of "The Emissary", which is one of TNG's best bits of music, IMHO. Nice
>work.
There was no music here that really stuck in my mind (they're still working
on figuring out what musical themes are, it seems), but the general sounds
set the mood quite nicely, especially all the french horns.
>--Since I'm sure someone will ask "why didn't the translator work!", I'll
>answer it. This wasn't a translation problem--it was a conceptual,
>comprehension problem. All the translators in the world won't help you if you
>aren't thinking in even marginally similar ways.
Bingo.
Not much to say, except that I think I'd give it a 10, not a measly 9.5 :-)
--
Michael Rawdon
raw...@cs.wisc.edu
The the Fool said "Oh you Wise men, you really make me laugh,
With your talk of vast persuasion and searching through the past,
There is only greed and evil in the men who fight today,
The Song of the Crusader has long since gone away."
- Chris De Burgh, "Last Night"