Data Contractions--So what?
Peter_...@cup.portal.com
contractions in the beginning? Me, I don't understand why he doesn't
use them now. Because he CAN'T? I bet there are word processing programs
NOW that can use contractions. What's the big deal?
Why doesn't anyone argue over how Spock grinned like a fool in all his
early appearances? Now that's more interesting to me.
PAD
Stephen Dennison
Or, better yet, how Data grinned like a fool in the first season, *and* at
appropriate times. It seems that the comic relief of Data acting like an
idiot occurred to the writers in the second season.
See, there's a problem here. I thought Hawkeye Pierce (in M*A*S*H*) went
through an *incredible* amount of change from the first season on. Alda's
character grew by leaps and bounds, but Data, being an android, isn't
allowed to make those changes and have them be credible. Granted, the
evolution of his character *does* seem to be going backwards (More human to
less human), but the concept is the same. Spock suffered from the same
backwards malady. Doesn't Gene learn from his past mistakes ?
Stephen
"There's a black cat caught in a high tree top."
-- Sting
Eric &
> I'm missing something here--what's the big deal about Data having used
> contractions in the beginning? Me, I don't understand why he doesn't
> use them now. Because he CAN'T? I bet there are word processing programs
> NOW that can use contractions. What's the big deal?
Exactly my view...
> Why doesn't anyone argue over how Spock grinned like a fool in all his
> early appearances? Now that's more interesting to me.
The two that stick out in my mind are:
1. The scene in "The Cage" where Spock touches a plant on Talos
IV, it makes some chiming music or some such(been awhile
since I saw it) and Spock broke into a smile. A _BIG_
smile.
2. In "The Man Trap" in the final showdown in McCoy's quarters,
Spock rushs in and yells "Shoot! It's killing the Captain!"
He didn't say this in the calm, rational voice we've come to
know and love...
--
Eric Rossing Internet: ros...@cs.hope.edu
"Well, this is a new ship but she's got the right name. Now you remember
that, you hear? You treat her like a lady, she'll always bring you home."
--The Admiral to Data, "Encounter at Farpoint"
Andrew Pomianowski
>I'm missing something here--what's the big deal about Data having used
>contractions in the beginning? Me, I don't understand why he doesn't
>use them now. Because he CAN'T? I bet there are word processing programs
>NOW that can use contractions. What's the big deal?
This gets to me as well -- Data's brain works amazingly fast, right?
He never forgets anything, right?
So, why doesn't he simply remember the forms of all human contractions,
and have a simple syntax checking 'subroutine' running in the background
that checks what he is about to say against his table of contractions and
instantly reworks the sentence with the appropriate contractions.
Data can work like a computer, and this would be a relatively simple
task for such a computer, and since Data thinks so much faster than a
human no one would notice any slight delays. Besides, this is basically
how our own speech centres use contractions isn't it -- by replacing
known constructs with other shorter ones.
Data should have no problem with contractions at all. He has been
proved *by law* to be a sentient being, and one of the requirements for
such a being is the ability to learn.
>Why doesn't anyone argue over how Spock grinned like a fool in all his
>early appearances? Now that's more interesting to me.
Hey, questioning TOS is a definate mistake -- you mess with TOS
you answer to me!!
:-) :-)
Actually, I do agree with you. However, the only time I have seen
Spock 'grin like a fool' as you put it was in 'The Cage', which is not
normally regarded as a canon part of the TOS mythos. (Did the scene where
Spock grins appear in 'The Menagerie'? I'll have to check on that since
that *would* be a glaring continuity error.) Smiles in the regular series
were usually very restrained - maybe a slight upturning of the corners of
the mouth, which Spock probably hoped would be put down to 'a trick of the
light' by his fellow crewmembers. Then, when McCoy started getting on his
case he stopped even that, since he *knew* McCoy would notice and accuse
him of showing emotion.
A more noticeable continuity error is that in the early episodes he
shouts all the time. Have you ever seen Spock shouting in normal
conversation since then? I think not.
>PAD
-- Andy.
Andrew Pomianowski-----The Man From U.M.I.S.T.-----Just the VAX, maam.-----
You told me that you loved me, and you cried.
I said I had no feelings. And I lied.
-------Sonnet From the Vulcan : Omicron Ceti Three. By Shirley Meech-------
Sandeep Shriram Mulgund
I do remember reading an explanation (read rationalization) for this
observation. It seems that very early on, Roddenberry et al. hadn't
decided that Spock would be this stoic emotionless type. So, they had
him running around grinning like a fool...
Mika O. Latokartano
>From article <44...@cup.portal.com>, by Peter_...@cup.portal.com:
>> I'm missing something here--what's the big deal about Data having used
>> contractions in the beginning? Me, I don't understand why he doesn't
>> use them now. Because he CAN'T? I bet there are word processing programs
>> NOW that can use contractions. What's the big deal?
>
>Exactly my view...
>
>> Why doesn't anyone argue over how Spock grinned like a fool in all his
>> early appearances? Now that's more interesting to me.
>
>The two that stick out in my mind are:
> 1. The scene in "The Cage" where Spock touches a plant on Talos
> IV, it makes some chiming music or some such(been awhile
> since I saw it) and Spock broke into a smile. A _BIG_
> smile.
That is simply because at the time during the pilot, the character
or Spock was not yet established. The producers, Big G.R. and
the lot didn't know yet what to make of this Vulcan. It was only
later on that the now well knows characteristics of Spock
defeloped and got established.
> 2. In "The Man Trap" in the final showdown in McCoy's quarters,
> Spock rushs in and yells "Shoot! It's killing the Captain!"
> He didn't say this in the calm, rational voice we've come to
> know and love...
>
Was this one of the earlier episodes? What was its number (counting
from the first one)? The deal was probably the same with this one.
>--
>Eric Rossing Internet: ros...@cs.hope.edu
>"Well, this is a new ship but she's got the right name. Now you remember
>that, you hear? You treat her like a lady, she'll always bring you home."
> --The Admiral to Data, "Encounter at Farpoint"
- Mika
--
[ Mika O. Latokartano Internet : m...@tukki.jyu.fi ]
[ Decnet : m...@jylk.decnet Bitnet : m...@finjyu.bitnet ]
Mr. Smiley Face
[Lot's of stuff about Data not going into contractions deleted]
Okay... how's this for an explanation of the ENTIRE contraction problem...
It's a serious one, so don't hit n yet... :)
We've seen in Brothers that Data can have certain processes bloked,
such as his inability to remember anything he did in hijacking the ship
until he accessed some program. Perhaps, in order to make Data less
like humans/ stand out from the rest of the colonists/ not seem like Lore/
whatever the reason, Soong installed such a device in Data's programing
that excludes the possibility of him using contractions. This would
explain why Lore can use them; he has no such device. This would explain
why Lal could use them; Data (nor anyone but Soong) doesn't know about the
device, and therefore didn't install one in Lal, therfore her processes
of contraction usage isn't blocked.
Now, as far as Data OCCASSIONALLY using contractions... (this is where
the theory gets streched slightly) we have two theories here...
1) There is a bug/malfunction in the device, and therefore it doesn't
work right all the time. (I can see this as being quite possible... the
program for my modem for some reason sometimes dials all 7 numbers and
lets me connect, and sometimes goes haywire and forces me to send the
command again. Malfunction is definitely possible... then again, it is
an apple iic)
2) The process of speach can take several different paths within Data's
network of programing. Some paths filter through the device, some don't.
In terms of forseeing the arguement "But certainly Data would know if
he's trying to use a contraction but it doesn't come out that way",
remember, the device blocked his memory when he hijacked the ship. It
can just as easily block his memory as to remembering whehter or not
he tried to use one.
-Josh Laff :)
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Do you know how much damage it would | Josh Laff: e-mail to: |
do to the bulldozer if I simply just | smi...@uiuc.edu | # #
let it run over you?" |smi...@gnu.ai.mit.edu____| _ _
"No. How much?" |_____________________| | |#\_____/#|
"None at all." | (217) 328-1134 | \#######/
Bruce Barr
place was a statement her made in the episode where he creates his 'daughter.'
(I don't remember the name of the episode, but it was on just the other night.)
He makes the observasion that she can use contractions, while he does not.
Mysterious, since she is supposed to be an exact copy of himself.
Thusly the writers have made the fact that Data does not use contractions a
part of his character and have stated this fact. This is not just a case of
observation of a tendency that is part of the actors characterization, but
a planned and acknowledged part of the character.
So that...
(It's not that this thread hasn't taken an interesting path, but I don't remem-
ber anyone addressing the original question.
Cheers,
BB
James P. Callison
>
>In article <44...@cup.portal.com> Peter_...@cup.portal.com writes:
> This gets to me as well -- Data's brain works amazingly fast, right?
> He never forgets anything, right?
> So, why doesn't he simply remember the forms of all human contractions,
>and have a simple syntax checking 'subroutine' running in the background
>that checks what he is about to say against his table of contractions and
>instantly reworks the sentence with the appropriate contractions.
> Data can work like a computer, and this would be a relatively simple
>task for such a computer, and since Data thinks so much faster than a
>human no one would notice any slight delays. Besides, this is basically
>how our own speech centres use contractions isn't it -- by replacing
>known constructs with other shorter ones.
> Data should have no problem with contractions at all. He has been
>proved *by law* to be a sentient being, and one of the requirements for
>such a being is the ability to learn.
Unless, as hinted in "DataLore", Data has code which specifically prohibits
the use of contractions. Remeber, Lore said he was "too" human, so Soong
rewrote the code, eliminating contractions, etc. to make him "less"
human. It is possible that Lore was lying, although I doubt it.
I postulate that the contractions are due to:
a) Spiner's errors
b) Writer's errors
c) Spiner's speech patterns
d) "DataLore" didn't air 'til later in the season; the contractions
are retconned into non-existence.
>>Why doesn't anyone argue over how Spock grinned like a fool in all his
>>early appearances? Now that's more interesting to me.
> Actually, I do agree with you. However, the only time I have seen
>Spock 'grin like a fool' as you put it was in 'The Cage', which is not
>normally regarded as a canon part of the TOS mythos. (Did the scene where
>Spock grins appear in 'The Menagerie'? I'll have to check on that since
>that *would* be a glaring continuity error.) Smiles in the regular series
>were usually very restrained - maybe a slight upturning of the corners of
>the mouth, which Spock probably hoped would be put down to 'a trick of the
>light' by his fellow crewmembers. Then, when McCoy started getting on his
>case he stopped even that, since he *knew* McCoy would notice and accuse
>him of showing emotion.
> A more noticeable continuity error is that in the early episodes he
>shouts all the time. Have you ever seen Spock shouting in normal
>conversation since then? I think not.
There have been a few interesting theories on that subject; one is that
what we see in early TOS is Spock's character in internal turmoil. That is,
Spock is unsure of who he is, and what his "purpose" is. In the early
episodes, he tries a more emotional approach; later in the series he
tries a more emotionless approach; it's not until TMP that he finally
hits his stride, and "knows who he is and where he belongs."
Sounds reasonable to me....
James
James P. Callison Applications Analyst UCS/AUS, University of Oklahoma
JCal...@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu /\ JPCa...@uokmax.ecn.uoknor
JCa...@metgem.gcn.uoknor.edu /\/ \/\/\ AUS...@UOKMVSA.BITNET
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make the other
bastard die for his.
--General George S. Patton
Andrew T. Johnston
>>I'm missing something here--what's the big deal about Data having used
>>contractions in the beginning? Me, I don't understand why he doesn't
>>use them now. Because he CAN'T? I bet there are word processing programs
>>NOW that can use contractions. What's the big deal?
>
> This gets to me as well -- Data's brain works amazingly fast, right?
>
> He never forgets anything, right?
>
> So, why doesn't he simply remember the forms of all human contractions,
>and have a simple syntax checking 'subroutine' running in the background
>that checks what he is about to say against his table of contractions and
>instantly reworks the sentence with the appropriate contractions.
>
> Data can work like a computer, and this would be a relatively simple
>task for such a computer, and since Data thinks so much faster than a
>human no one would notice any slight delays. Besides, this is basically
>how our own speech centres use contractions isn't it -- by replacing
>known constructs with other shorter ones.
> Data should have no problem with contractions at all. He has been
>proved *by law* to be a sentient being, and one of the requirements for
>such a being is the ability to learn.
No, no, no. Remember, the only reason Data even exists is because all the
colonists on whatever planet Data was found on didn't like Lore since he
was far too human (and a bit too warped), and they were afraid of him. So
Dr. Soong made Data-- without emotions, without the ability to use
contractions, without the ability to understand humour, etc. But the key
factor in understanding Data's inability to perform these simple tasks (well,
I guess some of them aren't so simple after all) is an inhibition of these
things in his basic essential programming, which he is not able to change so
easily (although the episode 'The Most Toys' suggests it is possible).
Remember the episode 'Brothers', when it was pointed out that Data was _not_
less perfect than Lore? That means that Data has programmed into him the
ability to perform all the tasks Lore does, but they are either not in his
current program or, as one wouls suspect in the use of contractions, they are
simply inhibited. Surely this is a simple feat of programming to achieve,
and just as surely, Data would be hard pressed to overcome this programming
design without external help. This is why he can't use contractions and the
like.
As for when he uses contractions either in character or when repeating
something previously said by another, this is not the creative act of
forming a contraction from the base words (as is inhibited by his programming),
but is instead the playback of something heard earlier (which would surely
not be inhibited). The argument "Well, why doesn't Data just replace every
instance when he's going to use a contraction with a recorded contraction"
has it's flaw in the lack of consideration of Dr. Soong's original programming.
If Soong didn't want Data to use contractions, then dammit, he's not going to
let Data find such a simple way around it! So this, too, must be inhibited.
And when Data uses a contraction all by his lonesome...well, geez, give Brent
Spiner a break. He _is_ human after all, you know.
>
DISCLAIMER:
Not really ajohnston. I'm Kevin Santosuosso, the only student at the
University of Waterloo without his own computer account.
"I'm not being unfair...okay, I am, but who cares?" -- The Wedding Present
Davy Jones
> I'm missing something here--what's the big deal about Data having used
> contractions in the beginning? Me, I don't understand why he doesn't
> use them now. Because he CAN'T? I bet there are word processing programs
> NOW that can use contractions. What's the big deal?
>
> early appearances? Now that's more interesting to me.
>
> PAD
Peterwaafah-mon, Jambo! Ndbeli?
Well, do word-processors talk? Do they think? Do they use correct grammar?
(Yes, I know there are grammar checkers, but they aren't always correct.)
Data was also a prototype and for simplicity was probably programmed to use
proper grammar (which means no contractions). The use of contractions (from
a programmers POV) would require not only an additional check on the word
before it's said, but also to look ahead a word.
Dagwaafah.
Memory Alpha BBS (memalph.UUCP), Phoenix, AZ +1 602 943 0287
-= The Sum of All Knowledge =-
Life...
>>I'm missing something here--what's the big deal about Data having used
>>contractions in the beginning? Me, I don't understand why he doesn't
>>use them now. Because he CAN'T? I bet there are word processing programs
>>NOW that can use contractions. What's the big deal?
> This gets to me as well -- Data's brain works amazingly fast, right?
> He never forgets anything, right?
> So, why doesn't he simply remember the forms of all human contractions,
>and have a simple syntax checking 'subroutine' running in the background
>that checks what he is about to say against his table of contractions and
>instantly reworks the sentence with the appropriate contractions.
I'mn't sure you can use a system like that. Some contractions aren't
legal, and sometimes you do not use a contraction in order to emphasize
what you are saying. Sometimes two contractions can be formed in a
sentence, and you need to know which one to use.
It may also be that he can't insert a program in that part of his system.
It may be part of his speech hardware that disallows contractions from the
normal path where his speech originates. When emulating, such data comes
from a raw data path. It takes a moment to switch modes: "What would you
like me to do. Dear."
A good instance of two different modes of Data, one emulating, the other
speaking, comes from the same episode: "You don't tell me how to behave!
You're not my mother!" "What?" "You are not my mother. That is the
proper response to your statement that I was acting foolishly." This also
explains the instances when he was emulating Holmes and using
contractions. He was emulating Holmes' speech patterns.
> Data can work like a computer, and this would be a relatively simple
>task for such a computer, and since Data thinks so much faster than a
>human no one would notice any slight delays. Besides, this is basically
>how our own speech centres use contractions isn't it -- by replacing
>known constructs with other shorter ones.
Can you change a 300 bps modem to a 19.2 Kbps modem via software alone?
It may be a limitation like that. That area of his system may be
intentionally locked away, to make him less human, and easier for humans
to deal with.
> Data should have no problem with contractions at all. He has been
>proved *by law* to be a sentient being, and one of the requirements for
>such a being is the ability to learn.
So if someone can't learn one piece of information or one ability, that
someone can not be considered a sentient being? Sounds like alot of the
human population of this planet could then be considered non-sentient.
Life...
>In terms of forseeing the arguement "But certainly Data would know if
>he's trying to use a contraction but it doesn't come out that way",
>remember, the device blocked his memory when he hijacked the ship. It
>can just as easily block his memory as to remembering whehter or not
>he tried to use one.
Also through experience he has found he can't use them, so he no longer
tries. Also, a scene where it appears he is trying, also from Brothers:
"I am not less perfect than Lore. I am not less perfect than Lore. I am
not less perfect than Lore."
>"Do you know how much damage it would | Josh Laff: e-mail to: |
> do to the bulldozer if I simply just | smi...@uiuc.edu | # #
> let it run over you?" |smi...@gnu.ai.mit.edu____| _ _
I'm not sure if that is phrased right, but there are different phrasings
available via different mediums.
Andrew Pomianowski
>a...@tcom.stc.co.uk (Andrew Pomianowski) writes:
>>Peter_...@cup.portal.com writes:
>
>> This gets to me as well -- Data's brain works amazingly fast, right?
>
>> He never forgets anything, right?
>
>> So, why doesn't he simply remember the forms of all human contractions,
>>and have a simple syntax checking 'subroutine' running in the background
>>that checks what he is about to say against his table of contractions and
>>instantly reworks the sentence with the appropriate contractions.
>
>I'mn't sure you can use a system like that. Some contractions aren't
>legal, and sometimes you do not use a contraction in order to emphasize
>what you are saying. Sometimes two contractions can be formed in a
>sentence, and you need to know which one to use.
Point taken. I may have oversimplified the problem, but the basic idea
is still sound - I was working on the assumption that the reworked
sentence would still have to pass through whatever standard syntax
checking Data uses, hence if it was not syntactically correct after
rework it would be rejected and would have to be constructed again.
There have been several posts stating that his problems with contractions
were caused by Dr. Soong, and after watching Datalore again I can see the
point. Since you have also raised this topic I will give my opinions after
this piece of included text.
>It may also be that he can't insert a program in that part of his system.
>It may be part of his speech hardware that disallows contractions from the
>normal path where his speech originates. When emulating, such data comes
>from a raw data path. It takes a moment to switch modes: "What would you
>like me to do. Dear."
It strikes me that the ideal point for such a piece of hardware would
be in the aforementioned syntax checking position. Here sentences could be
analysed for contractions and rejected, however I can see a problem with
this.
What happens if Data encounters a new language (and he apparently does have
the ability to learn new languages) that uses words like:
havent, cant (which is a word even in English as I recall), hasnt etc.?
What would be the effect on this piece of his hardware that intercepts
contractions? If it let them pass due to the fact that he was using a
different language bank, then Data could easily relearn English with
contractions, put it in a different bank and thus completely fool his
internal hardware.
If the hardware did not allow him to use havent, cant etc. then he
could be severely limited - for example - how could he speak a new language
if havent was the word for I/me - answer : he couldn't (at least, he
could *never* speak it fluently).
PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying that there aren't ways around these
problems I have outlined, but I hope I have shown that any piece of
hardware (or software) preventing Data from using contractions would
have to be highly intelligent. It would have to be capable of covering
many possible situations that could arise, and that would have taken
Dr. Soong a lot of time and work in design. From what I saw in Datalore
the modification to Data was performed in something of a hurry as a
last minute addition. Could Dr. Soong have covered all the possible
approaches that Data could take if he was *really* determined to use
contractions?
I don't know, and we will probably never find out.
>[...]
>> Data can work like a computer, and this would be a relatively simple
>>task for such a computer, and since Data thinks so much faster than a
>>human no one would notice any slight delays. Besides, this is basically
>>how our own speech centres use contractions isn't it -- by replacing
>>known constructs with other shorter ones.
>Can you change a 300 bps modem to a 19.2 Kbps modem via software alone?
>It may be a limitation like that. That area of his system may be
>intentionally locked away, to make him less human, and easier for humans
>to deal with.
See above.
>> Data should have no problem with contractions at all. He has been
>>proved *by law* to be a sentient being, and one of the requirements for
>>such a being is the ability to learn.
>So if someone can't learn one piece of information or one ability, that
>someone can not be considered a sentient being? Sounds like alot of the
>human population of this planet could then be considered non-sentient.
Again, point taken. I'm sorry that what I said was a bit generalised,
perhaps I should have taken a bit more time over what I wrote, but I
hope that this article outlines my position a bit more clearly.
- Andy.
--
Andrew Pomianowski----The Man From U.M.I.S.T.----Just the VAX, maam----
"I'm a pretty dangerous guy when I'm cornered."
"Yeah... you go to pieces so fast people get hit by the shrapnel."
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