WHY Rape?(Spoiler: violations)
Gautham D. Kamath
never stopped me before. Almost everyone here has been screaming
rape in connection with the "mental raping" of Troi. It seems
that no one has been the least concerned with the raping of
Riker because he was a man. Now I don't want to start some
men can/cannot be raped thread, but it seems to me that hypothetically
if Troi wouldn't have been attacked (she tends to experience the most
emotionally trauma of anyone) that this just would have been another
psionic alien scares the shit out of humans story. And I bet even the
writers wouldn't have inserted the term mental rape either.
But not only do they make Troi the first victim, they further cloud
the issue by making the "mental rape" a memory of an actual PHYSICAL
DATE rape, thus setting the "rape" undertone for the rest of the
episode. Their need to do that to me admits that they themselves
felt an invasion and twisting of memories by itself was not enough
to justify their moralizing lesson of the week.
Also the fact that Riker after he was in the coma, was virtually
ignored and the whole rest of the episode concentrated on Troi
signals to me that implicitly it wasn't a rape unless it happens to
a woman, which would be a very idiotic message to send.
Now I realize that Beverly too was attacked, but again I maintain
that without Troi's date rape memomry to set the "rape" tone for the
rest of the episode, this would have just been considered a mere
invasion of privacy.
The other thing that really disgusts me about the episode, is the
rapist returning to the scene of the crime shit. "Oh why are you so
nice to me, so I'll guess I'll have to rape you again for good
measure so the incompetent crew has a chance to catch me and end this
episode in the last 3 minutes" schtick just was painful to watch.
IS IT ASKING TOO MUCH that once in a while, we can get a bad guy
who actually is competent and escapes????? Like an ST version of
HANNIBAL LECHTER from "Silence of Lambs". There is no rule of drama
that says that the good guys have to come out on top every week.
In fact the most interesting episode to me is one in which the
crew are suckered/fail miserably and LEARN from their mistakes.
Are you listening writers?
Gautham
Dave Martin
>But not only do they make Troi the first victim, they further cloud
>the issue by making the "mental rape" a memory of an actual PHYSICAL
>DATE rape, thus setting the "rape" undertone for the rest of the
I think they intended that the "mental rape" scenes to be based more on fear
than on real memory. If you notice, Keiko's memory sequence had things from
her own viewpoint, the way her mind remembered the event more or less. The other
sequences were from a third-party view, and were further modified by the
inclusion of the "rapist" in them. Troi's "memory" was probably based upon a
discussion between her and Riker, perhaps with Riker's kiss startling her (if
it wasn't -- if Riker really did date-rape her, or make the attempt, then they
certainly should have done more than show it as a memory). Apparently Riker's
was from a death which he felt responsible for due to a Command decision, but
was enhanced by the crewman's repetitive "You killed her" which may not have
happened in reality. And certainly Jack Crusher did not open his eyes when
Beverly went to see the body (also, the "Borgness" of Picard -- did anyone
else think he looked like Uncle Martin from "My Favorite Martian"? -- implied
the unreality of the memory. The explanation one poster offered as being
used in one of the books doesn't hold a lot a solidity since the writers of the
show are not supposed to read the books so they can't be accused of stealing
from them).
If the data-rape memory was mostly real, then the writers need to clear this
up and boot Riker from Starfleet. If it wasn't real, it would help for them to
have Riker & Troi discussing this altered memory to show that it didn't happen.
- -
- Dave Martin - Geochemical & Environmental Research Group, Texas A&M -
- DAVE@GERGA[GERGO,GERGI].TAMU.EDU - BRO...@TAMVXOCN.BITNET - AOL:DBM -
- -
Margaret Newman
SPOIlER ALERT! Personal opinion on "mental rape"
In article <1992Feb9.2...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, gdkg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Gautham D. Kamath) writes:
> What I'm about to say may get me flamed, but who cares, that
> never stopped me before. Almost everyone here has been screaming
> rape in connection with the "mental raping" of Troi. It seems
> that no one has been the least concerned with the raping of
> Riker because he was a man....
The 'rape' issue seemed centered around Troi, but little -it seemed to me-
was mentioned in either Riker's or Crusher's direction. They suffered, too,
but their experience was somewhat different. (The subject matter -Riker in
the engine room, and Bev with her husband's death.) Maybe it was suppose
to be worse for Troi -because of her empathic abilities?
The entire episode was badly done. They left it hanging in parts, and then
wrapped it up neatly coming to Troi's rescue at the end. Didn't Riker and
Beverly feel 'violated'? I wonder, too, about whether Troi heard Riker when
she was in her coma, and he was talking to her. She did not seem to
reciprocate -no shot of her in the Sickbay whispering to Riker.
Very disappointing show. -but that's my opinion!
Michael Cornelius
>The entire episode was badly done. They left it hanging in parts, and then
>wrapped it up neatly coming to Troi's rescue at the end.
Maybe so, but wasn't it neat to see Worf coldcock someone for a change ?
>>;-} <--Klingon smiley
--
===============================================================================
Michael Cornelius ...it was a game. Okay, we made it up,
m...@cse.unl.edu but it was a good game!
--Mr. Frost
Dwight Joe
>IS IT ASKING TOO MUCH that once in a while, we can get a bad guy
>who actually is competent and escapes????? Like an ST version of
>HANNIBAL LECHTER from "Silence of Lambs". There is no rule of drama
>that says that the good guys have to come out on top every week.
>In fact the most interesting episode to me is one in which the
>crew are suckered/fail miserably and LEARN from their mistakes.
>Are you listening writers?
Please remember that you are talking about Star Trek-TNG,
which is consistent with politically correct notions of right and wrong
and happiness. Things work with the fine precision of logic
equations regardless of whether this is indicative of real life or not.
Star Trek-TOS was different.
>
>Gautham
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Steven Grimm
>Please remember that you are talking about Star Trek-TNG,
>which is consistent with politically correct notions of right and wrong
>and happiness. Things work with the fine precision of logic
>equations regardless of whether this is indicative of real life or not.
Hmm, you must be talking about "The High Ground." No, I get it, you mean
"Q Who." Maybe you're talking about "Conspiracy." "The Survivors?" Aha,
got it. "Reunion." "Sins Of the Father?" "The Mind's Eye," yeah, that
must be it. "Silicon Avatar." "The Host." "Brothers." "Symbiosis."
"The Defector." "Half a Life."
Are we even watching the same show?
>Star Trek-TOS was different.
Oh, yeah, Kirk _never_ won and lived happily ever after, with the Federation
untouched and the premise of the show unaltered. Nope, not on TOS.
---
Steven Grimm kor...@eng.sun.com Moderator, comp.{sources,binaries}.atari.st
"We must be brave, and not let them know how frightened we really are."
-- OPEN LOOK Graphical User Interface Functional Specification
Michael Rawdon
>SPOIlER ALERT! Personal opinion on "mental rape"
>was mentioned in either Riker's or Crusher's direction. They suffered, too,
>but their experience was somewhat different. (The subject matter -Riker in
>the engine room, and Bev with her husband's death.) Maybe it was suppose
>to be worse for Troi -because of her empathic abilities?
>The entire episode was badly done. They left it hanging in parts, and then
>wrapped it up neatly coming to Troi's rescue at the end. Didn't Riker and
>Beverly feel 'violated'?
Possibly. Remember, though, that they probably didn't actually remember what
happened to them (Troi did not). Besides, I don't think that displaying
redundant outrage on the parts of each of them would have contibuted anything
to the episode. Especially as Jev was caught and would be punished anyway.
I don't think the neat wrap-up was a detriment; it was logically carried out,
I thought, culminating in one of the more exciting scenes of the season.
> I wonder, too, about whether Troi heard Riker when
>she was in her coma, and he was talking to her. She did not seem to
>reciprocate -no shot of her in the Sickbay whispering to Riker.
She probably didn't hear him, then. Besides, knowing what happened to her,
she probably realized that he would wake up within a day.
>Very disappointing show. -but that's my opinion!
Well, I liked it. My second favorite episode of the season...
--
Michael Rawdon raw...@cabrales.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department, Madison, WI
You can watch them die, live on TV.
- The Box, "Live On TV"
lea...@eis.dofasco.ca
> What I'm about to say may get me flamed, but who cares, that
> never stopped me before. Almost everyone here has been screaming
> rape in connection with the "mental raping" of Troi. It seems
> that no one has been the least concerned with the raping of
> Riker because he was a man.
> But not only do they make Troi the first victim, they further cloud
> the issue by making the "mental rape" a memory of an actual PHYSICAL
> DATE rape, thus setting the "rape" undertone for the rest of the
> episode.
I interpreted this as an alteration of Troi's good memory with
Riker and not an actual date rape.
> Also the fact that Riker after he was in the coma, was virtually
> ignored and the whole rest of the episode concentrated on Troi
> signals to me that implicitly it wasn't a rape unless it happens to
> a woman, which would be a very idiotic message to send.
> Now I realize that Beverly too was attacked, but again I maintain
> that without Troi's date rape memomry to set the "rape" tone for the
> rest of the episode, this would have just been considered a mere
> invasion of privacy.
>
At the end of the episode Piccard has everyone involved in
the briefing room. He said that they would receive treatment
for their trauma on the _____'s (insert alien's name here) home
planet. The father of the trio added that it had been hundreds
of years since they dealt with it. So there is some mention of
Beverly and Will's suffering and not just Troi's.
===============================================================================
Peter J. Lear CMPO 74 Wellington St. S. #2
lea...@eis.dofasco.ca Dofasco Inc. Hamilton, Ontario
tel (416) 548-4404 1330 Burlington St. E. L8N 2R1
fax (416) 548-4299 P.O. Box 2460 Canada
Hamilton, Ontario
L8N 3J5
Canada
===============================================================================
Michael Rawdon
>Oh, yeah, Kirk _never_ won and lived happily ever after, with the Federation
>untouched and the premise of the show unaltered. Nope, not on TOS.
Not on TNG either.
--
Michael Rawdon raw...@cabrales.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department, Madison, WI
"I think that (one of) TNG's problems is that it considers lacking action,
humor and character interplay to be interchangable with cerebral (just like
it often considers civility and lack of conflict interchangable with
friendship)."
- Atsushi Kanamori on rec.arts.startrek, 7 July 1991
Lance McQuage
When I saw this episode I felt it was somewhat mediocre. The guy who mind
raped troi was infattuated with her. He attaacked Riker because Riker was
special to her and it was his way of getting rid of the competition. In a
sense I guess you could call it rape, but I don't think it was of the same
order as that with Troi.
Riker was a threat to this guy so he needed to be eliminated. Beverly
was invaded because he feared she might glean the truth and expose him.
This was how I read this episode. If you notice the only two attacked here
were those who the guy knew were close to Troi. Troi was the catalyst. She
was at the heart of his obsession. He was infatuated with her and basically
raped her mentally because he knew he couldn't get involved with her physically. I enjoyed this episode, but thought it could have been done better.
I agree telepathy and empathy have at times been a little overused on the show
but I look at it this way. This people are getting paid a lot of money. Every
one knoes it, they have to have something to do to justify their salaries so
might as well usee their talents give them lines even if they are worthless.
lance
e
--
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Lance McQuage : As We go through our daily chores...Let us remember that there
la...@rbdc.wsnc.org: are others out there less fortunate than ourselves. Let's
take time out to help someone in need.
Burleigh Thomas L
>marg...@cs.arizona.edu (Margaret Newman) writes:
>>SPOIlER ALERT! Personal opinion on "mental rape"
>
>>wrapped it up neatly coming to Troi's rescue at the end.
>
>Maybe so, but wasn't it neat to see Worf coldcock someone for a change ?
>>>;-} <--Klingon smiley
with a couple of martial arts moves (or at least looked like so) and ended
up using a picture and a cold-cock by Worf by take the guy out. Surely her
basic martial skills training from StarFleet would have enabled her to do
better than that!
Also, just think of how much everyone's opinion of her would have been
raised - from a sensitive, touchy-feely counsellor to an Officer of
StarFleet that had enough spirit and gumption (word exists?) to defend
herself from attack effectively and aggressively! Besides, even Dr. Bev
used a phaser on a person (forgot the episode, sorry)!!
Ahh, well.... Maybe next time.....
--
Thomas L. Burleigh (take your pick:) | InterNet: tlb...@usl.edu
University of Southwestern Louisiana| Voice: (318) 232-8298
Fleming Co.s, Inc. |* My opinions are mine alone! *
LA Army National Guard |* You hear me?! They're MINE!! *
Janis Maria Cortese
>In article <1992Feb10.1...@unlinfo.unl.edu> m...@cse.unl.edu (Michael Cornelius) writes:
>>marg...@cs.arizona.edu (Margaret Newman) writes:
>>>SPOIlER ALERT! Personal opinion on "mental rape"
>>
>>>The entire episode was badly done. They left it hanging in parts, and then
>>>wrapped it up neatly coming to Troi's rescue at the end.
>>
>>Maybe so, but wasn't it neat to see Worf coldcock someone for a change ?
>>>>;-} <--Klingon smiley
>
> I thought it was rather disappointing that Troi started defending herself
>with a couple of martial arts moves (or at least looked like so) and ended
I wouldn't call kneeing someone in the nuts a martial-arts move.
>up using a picture and a cold-cock by Worf by take the guy out. Surely her
>basic martial skills training from StarFleet would have enabled her to do
>better than that!
I don't think she was thinking of StarFleet training; remember, she's a
counselor, not a security goon. She just wanted his blood on her hands.
> Also, just think of how much everyone's opinion of her would have been
>raised - from a sensitive, touchy-feely counsellor to an Officer of
>StarFleet that had enough spirit and gumption (word exists?) to defend
>herself from attack effectively and aggressively! Besides, even Dr. Bev
>used a phaser on a person (forgot the episode, sorry)!!
> Ahh, well.... Maybe next time.....
And you don't think that what she did was aggressive enough? Effective?
If Worf hadn't come in, she'd have chased him into the corridor, knocked
him unconscious, and the kept right on going. *MY* opinion of her was
raised quite high; I was cheering when she started whaling on Jev. She
didn't just slap him across the face and say "Oh, now, you stop that,
you naughty telepath." She whomped on him.
You might just have a problem with a physically small character who IS
a warm-fuzzy type doing any physical damage to anyone whatsoever.
Regards,
Janis C.
Ron Christian
>Star Trek-TOS was different.
Yeah -- it never changed. There was not the slightest continuity from one
show to the next that wasn't set in concrete in the first three episodes.
(Oh, excuse me: Photon torpedos, and Ensign Checkov. And the warp nacelle
bubbles. In three years.) There was absolutely no tension, because you
knew that (a), the guests were probably toast, especially any nameless
redshirts, and (b), absolutely everything else would somehow end up the same
as before.
At least in the movies, things changed and (with one particularly rude
exception) stayed changed.
TNG does have a tendancy to return to normalcy at the end of the hour, but
guest characters do reappear, and real changes do occur. As exemplified
by: Picard's cabin. The trophies displayed there grow with each season.
They would never have thought to do that in the old series. TNG has certainly
had it's share of stinkers, but on the average, the writing, continuity, and
technobabble is superior.
We're looking at TOS with twenty-year-long glasses. It may have been the
best thing on at the time (considering the competition: Lost in Space???)
but it just wasn't that great.
Ron
--
uunet!uswnvg!rchrist or uswnvg!rch...@uunet.uu.net
"It's the greatest advance in employee relations since the cat o' nine tails!"
Scott J Gorcey
>In article <1992Feb10....@leland.Stanford.EDU> unde...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>>Star Trek-TOS was different.
>
>Yeah -- it never changed. There was not the slightest continuity from one
>show to the next that wasn't set in concrete in the first three episodes.
>(Oh, excuse me: Photon torpedos, and Ensign Checkov. And the warp nacelle
>bubbles. In three years.) There was absolutely no tension, because you
>knew that (a), the guests were probably toast, especially any nameless
>redshirts, and (b), absolutely everything else would somehow end up the same
>as before.
> >
Not completely. During the third season, there were at least
two occasions where previous episodes were referred to. The
first was in "By Any Other Name" when the Kelvins (is that right?)
mentions the energy field at the edge of the galaxy and Kirk
says, "Yes, I know, we've been there."
The second was in "Turnabout Intruder" (is ^that^ right? The one
where the chick switches bodies with Kirk). When the chick, who's
really Kirk in a woman's body (where he belongs, IMO), tries to
convince Spock that she's really he. He mentions a couple of
past third-season episodes as evidence that he's really Kirk,
among them "The Empath" and (not sure, tho), "Is There In Truth
No Beauty?"
Harry Mudd appeared twice, and would have also appeared in
"Trouble with Tribbles" had all connections been made at both
ends in time.
That field at the edge of the galaxy was shown several times,
and with no exposition, as if to say: "You've seen this before,
we hope you remember it."
True, TNG has quite a bit more continuity between episodes (and
should have quite a bit more than that -- i.e., serial continuity
for the characters while maintaining an episodic format, as LA
Law does), but TOS ^did^ have some.
"I'm a politician and that means
"I'm a liar and a cheat
"And when I'm not kissin babies
"I'm thinkin up new ways to steal its sucker."
Tom Clancy, _Hunt For Red October_
(in all other ways, a piece of techno
speak garbage. Nifty movie tho.)
-Scott Gorcey
Michael L. Hasenfratz
> <stuff deleted>
>
>IS IT ASKING TOO MUCH that once in a while, we can get a bad guy
>who actually is competent and escapes????? Like an ST version of
>HANNIBAL LECHTER from "Silence of Lambs". There is no rule of drama
>that says that the good guys have to come out on top every week.
>In fact the most interesting episode to me is one in which the
>crew are suckered/fail miserably and LEARN from their mistakes.
>Are you listening writers?
>
>Gautham
Have been keeping an eye over your shoulder for Lore?
Mike Hasenfratz - WA6FXT * mi...@uMEM.COM or uunet!microme!mikeh
Micro Memory Inc.
Chatsworth, Ca. 91311
Scott J Gorcey
>In article <1992Feb9.2...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> gdkg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Gautham D. Kamath) writes:
>> <stuff deleted>
>>
>>IS IT ASKING TOO MUCH that once in a while, we can get a bad guy
>>who actually is competent and escapes????? Like an ST version of
>>HANNIBAL LECHTER from "Silence of Lambs". There is no rule of drama
>>that says that the good guys have to come out on top every week.
>>In fact the most interesting episode to me is one in which the
>>crew are suckered/fail miserably and LEARN from their mistakes.
>
> Have {you} been keeping an eye over your shoulder for Lore?
>
How about Lursa and B'Etor?
Gautham D. Kamath
>In article <1992Feb9.2...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> gdkg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Gautham D. Kamath) writes:
>> <stuff deleted>
>>
>>IS IT ASKING TOO MUCH that once in a while, we can get a bad guy
>>who actually is competent and escapes????? Like an ST version of
>>HANNIBAL LECHTER from "Silence of Lambs". There is no rule of drama
>>that says that the good guys have to come out on top every week.
>>In fact the most interesting episode to me is one in which the
>>crew are suckered/fail miserably and LEARN from their mistakes.
>>Are you listening writers?
>>
>>Gautham
> Have been keeping an eye over your shoulder for Lore?
Lore is irrelevant.
In "datalore" Lore starts in a winning postion and loses at the end.
He didn't really "escape" as much as was thrown out like yesterday's
garbage.
In the next episode he is in, he doesn't actually face the crew, but
rather beats up his creator, Dr. Sooong. Oh how tough it is to
beat up and outwit a senile old man and a naive Data (heavy sarcasm).
Hannibal Lechter, on the other hand starts in a losing position
(he is imprisoned heavily) and escapes and kills people in the
process. Throughout the movie you get the impression that he is
the master of his situation and can really escape whenever he
wants to. He IS A SUCCESS. LORE is FAILURE IN MY BOOK.
Gautham
Gautham D. Kamath
>In article <1992Feb21.1...@microme.uucp>, mi...@microme.uucp (Michael L. Hasenfratz) writes...
>>In article <1992Feb9.2...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> gdkg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Gautham D. Kamath) writes:
>>> <stuff deleted>
>>>
>>>IS IT ASKING TOO MUCH that once in a while, we can get a bad guy
>>>who actually is competent and escapes????? Like an ST version of
>>>HANNIBAL LECHTER from "Silence of Lambs". There is no rule of drama
>>>that says that the good guys have to come out on top every week.
>>>In fact the most interesting episode to me is one in which the
>>>crew are suckered/fail miserably and LEARN from their mistakes.
>>>Are you listening writers??
>>
>> Have {you} been keeping an eye over your shoulder for Lore?
>>
> How about Lursa and B'Etor?
See my previous post as to why Lore is a loser and Hannibal
Lechter is not.
Same for Lursa and B'Etor. They were on the winning team and LOST.
LOST.LOST.LOST. So what if they escape? They were never on the
enterprise or in the clutches of the good guys, so you can't
even call it an escape.
Hannibal Lechter starts in a losing position, has no freedom,
sets a goal for himself (escape and to kill a few people too) and
succeeds admirably. He IS A WINNER and role model for people who
want to accomplish positive results.
Gautham
Mark Runyan
>succeeds admirably. He IS A WINNER and role model for people who
>want to accomplish positive results.
<shudder> A *role model*? Yow.