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Star Trek: The Problem With The Federation's Economy - There are some ironic dark consequences of an economy that refuses to revolve around money.
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Ubiquitous
Aug 20, 2022, 9:06:04 PM8/20/22
to
Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their
‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
culture.
One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine? How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money
no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.
The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko’s
New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It’s great for Sisko, but what
about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word)
would not already have?
The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
function?
Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race. The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if
there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.
--
Let's go Brandon!
additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their
‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
culture.
One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine? How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money
no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.
The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko’s
New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It’s great for Sisko, but what
about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word)
would not already have?
The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
function?
Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race. The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if
there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.
--
Let's go Brandon!
BTR1701
Aug 20, 2022, 10:54:38 PM8/20/22
to
On Aug 20, 2022 at 6:04:30 PM PDT, "Ubiquitous" <web...@polaris.net> wrote:
> STAR TREK has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
during the DS9 era when episodes were airing showing Sisko and Jake back on
earth visiting his father's restaurant in New Orleans. It looked every bit
like any restaurant you might currently find in New Orleans and I was like,
"How does this work without money?" Do people just wander in, order some food,
eat it, and then get up and leave without paying for anything? And does Daddy
Sisko just get supplies of meat, poultry, eggs, fish, flour, etc. from farmers
who just drop it off, free of charge?
With replicator technology, a lot of this becomes meaningless, but all
throughout the TNG-era shows, we've been led to believe that replicator food
isn't as good as real food, so one assumes the appeal of a restaurant like
Daddy Sisko's is that it's using real ingredients, cooked by real people, so
the question then becomes how the hell does it all work?
And then I pointed out exactly what that paragraph above described: How the
hell does someone who, say, wants to be a chef and run their own restaurant
actually *get* the restaurant? Do they just ask the government for a building
with a fully-equipped kitchen and a completely furnished dining room and the
government gives them one? That seems absurd, but otherwise, they either have
to pay someone for a restaurant or pay someone to build them one. The only
alternative is that the answer is, if you're not already a chef who owns a
restaurant somehow-- like Picard's inherited vineyard-- then no, you can never
become one.
> The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko's
> New Orleans restaurant in DEEP SPACE 9. It's great for Sisko, but what
ordering around the busboys and line cooks, and I was like, "Why the hell
would someone who lives in a society where there's no need to work to live
conceivably take a job in a restaurant doing back-breaking work like busing
tables and mopping floors? Or cleaning toilets or any of the other things that
one would think 24th-century technology could do but apparently doesn't?
> STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
and/or unpleasant tasks is equated with 'creating a slave race'. Have I
enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?
How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a bathroom
become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to facilitate my
postings to Usenet not enslavement?
> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> STAR TREK has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
> these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
> question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
> organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
> over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
> spreads across a lot of the Federation-- not just Earth-- is their
> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
> these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
> question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
> organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
> over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
> 'evolution' away from currency and monetary importance. While this
> sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
>
> The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
> was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
> days of NEXT GENERATION. The Federation had grown almost complacent
> sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
>
> The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
> was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
> over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
> Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
> something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
> effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
> achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
> from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
> at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
> best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
> culture.
>
> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
> wanted to make wine? How could one can they 'buy' a vineyard when money
> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
> what they were born into.
I made this same point years ago in a STAR TREK discussion group. It was
> Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
> something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
> effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
> achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
> from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
> at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
> best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
> culture.
>
> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
> wanted to make wine? How could one can they 'buy' a vineyard when money
> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
> what they were born into.
during the DS9 era when episodes were airing showing Sisko and Jake back on
earth visiting his father's restaurant in New Orleans. It looked every bit
like any restaurant you might currently find in New Orleans and I was like,
"How does this work without money?" Do people just wander in, order some food,
eat it, and then get up and leave without paying for anything? And does Daddy
Sisko just get supplies of meat, poultry, eggs, fish, flour, etc. from farmers
who just drop it off, free of charge?
With replicator technology, a lot of this becomes meaningless, but all
throughout the TNG-era shows, we've been led to believe that replicator food
isn't as good as real food, so one assumes the appeal of a restaurant like
Daddy Sisko's is that it's using real ingredients, cooked by real people, so
the question then becomes how the hell does it all work?
And then I pointed out exactly what that paragraph above described: How the
hell does someone who, say, wants to be a chef and run their own restaurant
actually *get* the restaurant? Do they just ask the government for a building
with a fully-equipped kitchen and a completely furnished dining room and the
government gives them one? That seems absurd, but otherwise, they either have
to pay someone for a restaurant or pay someone to build them one. The only
alternative is that the answer is, if you're not already a chef who owns a
restaurant somehow-- like Picard's inherited vineyard-- then no, you can never
become one.
> The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko's
> about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
> currency. If one doesn't have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
> they offer in exchange that the 'wealthy' (for want of a better word)
> would not already have?
>
> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don't need to
> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
> function?
Yes, in the same DS9 restaurant episodes, there was a scene of Daddy Sisko
> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
> currency. If one doesn't have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
> they offer in exchange that the 'wealthy' (for want of a better word)
> would not already have?
>
> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don't need to
> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
> function?
ordering around the busboys and line cooks, and I was like, "Why the hell
would someone who lives in a society where there's no need to work to live
conceivably take a job in a restaurant doing back-breaking work like busing
tables and mopping floors? Or cleaning toilets or any of the other things that
one would think 24th-century technology could do but apparently doesn't?
> STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
> slave race.
I've always hated the way TREK portrays using technology to do rote, menial,
> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
> slave race.
and/or unpleasant tasks is equated with 'creating a slave race'. Have I
enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?
How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a bathroom
become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to facilitate my
postings to Usenet not enslavement?
> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>
> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
> societal dark underbellies are shown.
This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>
> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
> societal dark underbellies are shown.
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
A Friend
Aug 20, 2022, 10:59:12 PM8/20/22
to
In article <FsycnTljUvnGGZz-...@giganews.com>, Ubiquitous
https://gamerant.com/star-trek-problem-federation-economy
Please stop hiding the links in the headers, Ubi.
<web...@polaris.net> wrote:
> Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures.
Link is
> Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures.
https://gamerant.com/star-trek-problem-federation-economy
Please stop hiding the links in the headers, Ubi.
Ninapenda Jibini
Aug 20, 2022, 11:15:38 PM8/20/22
to
There are no holes in the logic because there is no logic. It doesn't
make sense because _it doesn't make sense_.
It's like the technobabble: they use popular buzzwords without any
regard for what they actually *mean*, and next week, forget all about
it.
Star Trek has never had the slightest concern for continuity.
--
Terry Austin
Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
make sense because _it doesn't make sense_.
It's like the technobabble: they use popular buzzwords without any
regard for what they actually *mean*, and next week, forget all about
it.
Star Trek has never had the slightest concern for continuity.
--
Terry Austin
Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Adam H. Kerman
Aug 21, 2022, 12:01:28 AM8/21/22
to
will be genuine than for Ubi to stop pretending he's the author and to
stop plagarizing.
A Friend
Aug 21, 2022, 7:19:34 AM8/21/22
to
In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
<atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
BTR1701
Aug 21, 2022, 10:43:07 AM8/21/22
to
On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> economy,
>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>
> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
allow it to be replicated.
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 11:05:51 AM8/21/22
to
come visit a lot but not every day. Somehow they have money in every way
shape and form except the name.
Do people just wander in, order some food,
eat it, and then get up and leave without paying for anything? And does
Daddy
Sisko just get supplies of meat, poultry, eggs, fish, flour, etc. from
farmers
who just drop it off, free of charge?
>
> With replicator technology, a lot of this becomes meaningless, but all
throughout the TNG-era shows, we've been led to believe that replicator
food
isn't as good as real food, so one assumes the appeal of a restaurant
like
Daddy Sisko's is that it's using real ingredients, cooked by real people,
so
the question then becomes how the hell does it all work?
>
about replicators and the holo deck that we can’t ever reconcile it. At
least if they’d crippled voyagers holo emitters in the pilot they could
rely on the fact that the system doesn’t work right.
Voyagers food replicators can’t make crisp celery. So every planet they
pass, Neelix takes a runabout down into a gravity well and looks around
randomly for crisp greens to cook with.
Apparently there’s some intrinsic difference between transporter technology
and food replicator technology and holodeck technology. We know replicator
food replicators use a different kind of power than anything else does.
But the systems are at least similar. If they can’t make crisp celery, are
you really going to ride in the transporter? Why the hell not just find
some celery you like and keep it in the transporter buffer and duplicate a
batch now and then? How can you possibly need crisp celery badly enough to
fly a spaceship to the bottom of a gravity well with every planet you pass?
How often do you feed the crew celery? Has anybody mentioned to Neelix that
there is no nutritional benefit in celery?
But then the trolley went completely off the tracks when they made a
restaurant on the hoodeck and people would be in there for days eating and
drinking while there was a food shortage on the real ship and nobody ever
suggested people just go to the holodeck to eat. Does the holodeck subtract
the food from you like it does everything else when you exit? If so, and
you’ve been in there for three days, why don’t you die when you leave?
systems can. There’s just no way to defend that.
>
> I've always hated the way TREK portrays using technology to do rote, menial,
and/or unpleasant tasks is equated with 'creating a slave race'. Have I
enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?
>
> How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a bathroom
become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to facilitate my
postings to Usenet not enslavement?
>
>> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
>> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
>> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
>> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
>> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
>> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
>> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>>
>> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
>> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
>> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
>> societal dark underbellies are shown.
>
> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>
I watched an episode the other night where somehow somebody had managed to
remove all the gold leaving just Latinum sludge behind. Even though gold is
intrinsically worthless to the Ferengi somehow Latinum without gold is
worthless as well. Also apparently gold pressed Latinum can’t be replicated
but it can be carried through a transporter. It’s the monetary equivalent
of crisp celery.
>> It may seem like a freeing
>> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
>> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
>> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
>> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
>> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
>> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
>> elites, such as Picard.
>
>
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.
BTR1701
Aug 21, 2022, 12:11:50 PM8/21/22
to
In article
<1079020054.682755557.4...@news.easynews.com>,
> Voyager is the biggest offender here. They said so many horrible things
transporter if the damn thing couldn't replicate crisp celery.
> But then the trolley went completely off the tracks when they made a
> restaurant on the hoodeck and people would be in there for days eating and
> drinking while there was a food shortage on the real ship and nobody ever
> suggested people just go to the holodeck to eat. Does the holodeck subtract
> the food from you like it does everything else when you exit? If so, and
> you’ve been in there for three days, why don’t you die when you leave?
But in one of the first eps of TNG, we see Wesley emerging from the
holodeck in a ski outfit and the snow on his shoulders doesn't disappear
when he walks out into the corridor.
> > Sisko ordering around the busboys and line cooks like drill sergeant,
so...
> > I've always hated the way TREK equates using technology to do rote,
> > menial, and/or unpleasant tasks with 'creating a slave race'. Have I
> > participate.
> >
> Gold pressed Latinum.
Yes, I typed 'latinum', but Siri apparently doesn't have an incorporated
Trek dictionary so she helpfully changed it to 'platinum' for me.
<1079020054.682755557.4...@news.easynews.com>,
> about replicators and the holo deck that we can't ever reconcile it. At
> least if they’d crippled voyagers holo emitters in the pilot they could
> rely on the fact that the system doesn't work right.
>
> Voyagers food replicators can't make crisp celery. So every planet they
> pass, Neelix takes a runabout down into a gravity well and looks around
> randomly for crisp greens to cook with.
>
> Apparently there's some intrinsic difference between transporter technology
> and food replicator technology and holodeck technology. We know replicator
> food replicators use a different kind of power than anything else does.
>
> But the systems are at least similar. If they can’t make crisp celery, are
> you really going to ride in the transporter?
Yep, I always wondered why the hell they'd put their bodies into a
> least if they’d crippled voyagers holo emitters in the pilot they could
> rely on the fact that the system doesn't work right.
>
> Voyagers food replicators can't make crisp celery. So every planet they
> pass, Neelix takes a runabout down into a gravity well and looks around
> randomly for crisp greens to cook with.
>
> Apparently there's some intrinsic difference between transporter technology
> and food replicator technology and holodeck technology. We know replicator
> food replicators use a different kind of power than anything else does.
>
> But the systems are at least similar. If they can’t make crisp celery, are
> you really going to ride in the transporter?
transporter if the damn thing couldn't replicate crisp celery.
> But then the trolley went completely off the tracks when they made a
> restaurant on the hoodeck and people would be in there for days eating and
> drinking while there was a food shortage on the real ship and nobody ever
> suggested people just go to the holodeck to eat. Does the holodeck subtract
> the food from you like it does everything else when you exit? If so, and
> you’ve been in there for three days, why don’t you die when you leave?
holodeck in a ski outfit and the snow on his shoulders doesn't disappear
when he walks out into the corridor.
> > and I was like, "Why the hell would someone who lives in a society where
> > there's no need to work to survive conceivably take a job in a restaurant
> > doing back-breaking work like busing tables and mopping floors? Or
> > cleaning toilets or any of the other things that one would think 24th-
> > century technology could do but apparently doesn't?
> >
> >> STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
> >> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
> >> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
> >> slave race.
>
> And then there's the tailor who makes better clothes than the automatic
> systems can. There's just no way to defend that.
Well, the computer's clothes don't come with a side order of spying,
> > cleaning toilets or any of the other things that one would think 24th-
> > century technology could do but apparently doesn't?
> >
> >> STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
> >> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
> >> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
> >> slave race.
>
> And then there's the tailor who makes better clothes than the automatic
> systems can. There's just no way to defend that.
so...
> > I've always hated the way TREK equates using technology to do rote,
> > menial, and/or unpleasant tasks with 'creating a slave race'. Have I
> > enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?
> >
> > How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a
> > bathroom become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to
> > facilitate my postings to Usenet not enslavement?
> >
> >> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
> >> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
> >> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
> >> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
> >> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
> >> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
> >> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
> >>
> >> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
> >> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
> >> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
> >> societal dark underbellies are shown.
> >
> > This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
> > economy, in which no small number of Federation people seemed to
> >
> > How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a
> > bathroom become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to
> > facilitate my postings to Usenet not enslavement?
> >
> >> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
> >> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
> >> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
> >> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
> >> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
> >> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
> >> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
> >>
> >> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
> >> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
> >> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
> >> societal dark underbellies are shown.
> >
> > This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
> > participate.
> >
> Gold pressed Latinum.
Yes, I typed 'latinum', but Siri apparently doesn't have an incorporated
Trek dictionary so she helpfully changed it to 'platinum' for me.
Dimensional Traveler
Aug 21, 2022, 2:32:04 PM8/21/22
to
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
BTR1701
Aug 21, 2022, 2:42:35 PM8/21/22
to
In article <tdttn2$2ddrn$1...@dont-email.me>,
nothing for them.
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
> > On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> >> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
> >>> economy,
> >>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >>
> >> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> >> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
> >
> > Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> > replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
> > has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
> > allow it to be replicated.
> >
> TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
Well, they had something that hummed and produced their food out of
> On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
> > On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> >> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
> >>> economy,
> >>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >>
> >> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> >> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
> >
> > Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> > replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
> > has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
> > allow it to be replicated.
> >
> TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
nothing for them.
A Friend
Aug 21, 2022, 3:21:36 PM8/21/22
to
In article <cgednXGcUce92Z_-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
gold for trading purposes.
We can assume that in TOS, which is set ~85 years before TNG,
replicator technology didn't yet exist. Ex: no Thanksgiving turkeys.
<atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> > <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
> >> economy,
> >> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >
> > We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> > Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>
> Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> replicate it as needed.
To repeat, we know from Kirk's dialogue that the Enterprise carries
> On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> > <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
> >> economy,
> >> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >
> > We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> > Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>
> Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> replicate it as needed.
gold for trading purposes.
We can assume that in TOS, which is set ~85 years before TNG,
replicator technology didn't yet exist. Ex: no Thanksgiving turkeys.
A Friend
Aug 21, 2022, 3:25:37 PM8/21/22
to
In article <atropos-B2C484...@news.giganews.com>, BTR1701
They once showed a snack being transported from the galley to the
transporter room. They never showed food being created out of nothing.
transporter room. They never showed food being created out of nothing.
Dimensional Traveler
Aug 21, 2022, 3:37:33 PM8/21/22
to
the food to look like a turkey in one episode. ;)
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 7:36:27 PM8/21/22
to
>> rely on the fact that the system doesn't work right.
>>
>> Voyagers food replicators can't make crisp celery. So every planet they
>> pass, Neelix takes a runabout down into a gravity well and looks around
>> randomly for crisp greens to cook with.
>>
>> Apparently there's some intrinsic difference between transporter technology
>> and food replicator technology and holodeck technology. We know replicator
>> food replicators use a different kind of power than anything else does.
>>
>> But the systems are at least similar. If they can’t make crisp celery, are
>>
>> Voyagers food replicators can't make crisp celery. So every planet they
>> pass, Neelix takes a runabout down into a gravity well and looks around
>> randomly for crisp greens to cook with.
>>
>> Apparently there's some intrinsic difference between transporter technology
>> and food replicator technology and holodeck technology. We know replicator
>> food replicators use a different kind of power than anything else does.
>>
>> you really going to ride in the transporter?
>
> Yep, I always wondered why the hell they'd put their bodies into a
> transporter if the damn thing couldn't replicate crisp celery.
>
>> But then the trolley went completely off the tracks when they made a
>> restaurant on the hoodeck and people would be in there for days eating and
>> drinking while there was a food shortage on the real ship and nobody ever
>> suggested people just go to the holodeck to eat. Does the holodeck subtract
>> the food from you like it does everything else when you exit? If so, and
>> you’ve been in there for three days, why don’t you die when you leave?
>
> Yep, I always wondered why the hell they'd put their bodies into a
> transporter if the damn thing couldn't replicate crisp celery.
>
>> But then the trolley went completely off the tracks when they made a
>> restaurant on the hoodeck and people would be in there for days eating and
>> drinking while there was a food shortage on the real ship and nobody ever
>> suggested people just go to the holodeck to eat. Does the holodeck subtract
>> the food from you like it does everything else when you exit? If so, and
>
> But in one of the first eps of TNG, we see Wesley emerging from the
> holodeck in a ski outfit and the snow on his shoulders doesn't disappear
> when he walks out into the corridor.
I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
> But in one of the first eps of TNG, we see Wesley emerging from the
> holodeck in a ski outfit and the snow on his shoulders doesn't disappear
> when he walks out into the corridor.
deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>> but it can be carried through a transporter. It’s the monetary equivalent
>> of crisp celery.
>
>>>> It may seem like a freeing
>>>> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
>>>> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
>>>> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
>>>> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
>>>> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
>>>> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
>>>> elites, such as Picard.
>
>
>>>> It may seem like a freeing
>>>> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
>>>> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
>>>> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
>>>> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
>>>> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
>>>> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
>>>> elites, such as Picard.
>
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 7:36:28 PM8/21/22
to
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
>> On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
>>> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
>>>> economy,
>>>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>>
>>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
>>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>>
>> Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
>> replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
>> has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
>> allow it to be replicated.
>>
> TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
>
>
There’s an argument to be made that TAS did.
> On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
>> On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
>>> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
>>>> economy,
>>>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>>
>>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
>>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>>
>> Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
>> replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
>> has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
>> allow it to be replicated.
>>
> TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
>
>
Also something Hass to be going on on a scale beyond making turkeys out of
synthetic meatloaf and sticking them in an oven for Kirk to be able to
instantly get a chicken sandwich and coffee out of a food slot
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 7:36:29 PM8/21/22
to
magic. I’ve always wondered if the power was off in the galley how yeoman
rand made a pot of coffee that she could heat with a hand phaser.
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 7:36:30 PM8/21/22
to
menu of fat floppy disks you can get stuff to appear almost instantaneously
behind an opaque automat door.
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 7:36:30 PM8/21/22
to
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 7:36:32 PM8/21/22
to
equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me they’re still
using money.
Dimensional Traveler
Aug 21, 2022, 8:15:51 PM8/21/22
to
On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>
> I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>
And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
>
> I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>
and laugh. :D
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 9:01:48 PM8/21/22
to
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>
>> I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
>> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
>> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
>> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
>> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>>
> And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
> and laugh. :D
>
But it’s a Holo victory
> On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>
>> I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
>> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
>> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
>> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
>> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>>
> And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
> and laugh. :D
>
Dimensional Traveler
Aug 21, 2022, 9:52:37 PM8/21/22
to
On 8/21/2022 6:01 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
>>> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
>>> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
>>> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
>>> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>>>
>> And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
>> and laugh. :D
>>
>
> But it’s a Holo victory
>
LOL. NOW it works.
> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
>>> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
>>> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
>>> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
>>> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>>>
>> And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
>> and laugh. :D
>>
>
> But it’s a Holo victory
>
A Friend
Aug 21, 2022, 10:59:50 PM8/21/22
to
In article
<2046459558.682814783.4...@news.easynews.com>,
> equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me theyąre still
> using money.
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
gold. Oops.
<2046459558.682814783.4...@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> > In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> > <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
> >> economy,
> >> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >
> >
> >
> > We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> > Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
> >
>
> Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that heąs authorized to pay an
> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> > In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> > <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
> >> economy,
> >> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >
> >
> >
> > We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> > Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
> >
>
> equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me theyąre still
> using money.
I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
gold. Oops.
anim8rfsk
Aug 21, 2022, 11:57:39 PM8/21/22
to
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 8/21/2022 6:01 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
>>>> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
>>>> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
>>>> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
>>>> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>>>>
>>> And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
>>> and laugh. :D
>>>
>>
>> But it’s a Holo victory
>>
> LOL. NOW it works.
>
:)
> On 8/21/2022 6:01 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/21/2022 4:36 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I’ve always stopped the wardrobe department should be inside the hollow
>>>> deck. The idea that they have wardrobe and pop accoutrements available to
>>>> them elsewhere and that they then have to walk through the ship to the
>>>> holodeck is ridiculous. Also I’m sick and tired of over writing spellcheck
>>>> so if it decides it Hass to say Hollow deck I am going to let it.
>>>>
>>> And as an added benefit for the rest of us it makes it easier to point
>>> and laugh. :D
>>>
>>
>> But it’s a Holo victory
>>
> LOL. NOW it works.
>
anim8rfsk
Aug 22, 2022, 4:35:43 AM8/22/22
to
A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> In article
> <2046459558.682814783.4...@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
>>> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
>>>> economy,
>>>> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
>>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>>>
>>
>> Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that heıs authorized to pay an
> In article
> <2046459558.682814783.4...@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
>>> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
>>>> economy,
>>>> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
>>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>>>
>>
>> equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me theyıre still
>> using money.
>
>
> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
> gold. Oops
IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
>
>
> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
> gold. Oops
more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
A Friend
Aug 22, 2022, 7:27:47 AM8/22/22
to
In article
<1820992551.682849148.9...@news.easynews.com>,
RUTH: Yes. The miners are healthy and fairly young.
MUDD: Later, dear, later. Magda, did you get to your communications man?
MAGDA: The head miner is named Ben Childress. The others are Gossett
and Benton.
MUDD: And they've been there?
RUTH: Almost three years now, alone!
MUDD: Perfect. Perfect. Three of them and three lovely ladies has Harry
Mudd. And lithium crystals, my dear, are worth three hundred times
their weight in diamonds, thousands of times their weight in gold.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm
<1820992551.682849148.9...@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <2046459558.682814783.4...@news.easynews.com>,
> > anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> >>> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
> >>>> economy,
> >>>> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> >>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that heıs authorized to pay an
> >> equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me theyıre still
> >> using money.
> >
> >
> > I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
> > gold. Oops
>
> IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
MUDD: Just three? You're sure?
> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <2046459558.682814783.4...@news.easynews.com>,
> > anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> >>> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
> >>>> economy,
> >>>> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> >>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that heıs authorized to pay an
> >> equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me theyıre still
> >> using money.
> >
> >
> > I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
> > gold. Oops
>
> IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
RUTH: Yes. The miners are healthy and fairly young.
MUDD: Later, dear, later. Magda, did you get to your communications man?
MAGDA: The head miner is named Ben Childress. The others are Gossett
and Benton.
MUDD: And they've been there?
RUTH: Almost three years now, alone!
MUDD: Perfect. Perfect. Three of them and three lovely ladies has Harry
Mudd. And lithium crystals, my dear, are worth three hundred times
their weight in diamonds, thousands of times their weight in gold.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm
Ubiquitous
Aug 22, 2022, 2:07:29 PM8/22/22
to
anim...@cox.net wrote:
>A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
>> gold. Oops
>
>IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
>more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
>A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
>> gold. Oops
>
>IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
>more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
--
Let's go Brandon!
Dimensional Traveler
Aug 22, 2022, 4:00:19 PM8/22/22
to
episode meant "dilithium".
anim8rfsk
Aug 22, 2022, 5:28:10 PM8/22/22
to
A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
> In article
> <1820992551.682849148.9...@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <2046459558.682814783.4...@news.easynews.com>,
>>> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
>>>>> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
>>>>>> economy,
>>>>>> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
>>>>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not that I recall. Kirk tells Childress that heąs authorized to pay an
> In article
> <1820992551.682849148.9...@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <2046459558.682814783.4...@news.easynews.com>,
>>> anim8rfsk <anim...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-...@giganews.com>, BTR1701
>>>>> <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
>>>>>> economy,
>>>>>> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
>>>>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> equitable price for the lithium crystals. Which says to me theyąre still
>>>> using money.
>>>
>>>
>>> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
>>> gold. Oops
>>
>> IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
>> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
>
>
> MUDD: Just three? You're sure?
>
> RUTH: Yes. The miners are healthy and fairly young.
>
> MUDD: Later, dear, later. Magda, did you get to your communications man?
>
> MAGDA: The head miner is named Ben Childress. The others are Gossett
> and Benton.
>
> MUDD: And they've been there?
>
> RUTH: Almost three years now, alone!
>
> MUDD: Perfect. Perfect. Three of them and three lovely ladies has Harry
> Mudd. And lithium crystals, my dear, are worth three hundred times
> their weight in diamonds, thousands of times their weight in gold.
>
> http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm
>
Thanks! I found that but had no way to copy paste off Jacote using the
>>>
>>>
>>> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
>>> gold. Oops
>>
>> IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
>> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
>
>
> MUDD: Just three? You're sure?
>
> RUTH: Yes. The miners are healthy and fairly young.
>
> MUDD: Later, dear, later. Magda, did you get to your communications man?
>
> MAGDA: The head miner is named Ben Childress. The others are Gossett
> and Benton.
>
> MUDD: And they've been there?
>
> RUTH: Almost three years now, alone!
>
> MUDD: Perfect. Perfect. Three of them and three lovely ladies has Harry
> Mudd. And lithium crystals, my dear, are worth three hundred times
> their weight in diamonds, thousands of times their weight in gold.
>
> http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm
>
iPhone which is really annoying.
anim8rfsk
Aug 22, 2022, 5:28:12 PM8/22/22
to
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
>> anim...@cox.net wrote:
>>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
>>>> gold. Oops
>>>
>>> IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
>>> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
>>
>> I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
>>
> The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
> episode meant "dilithium".
>
Maybe, and sort of. TOS has lithium, lithium cracking stations, and
> On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
>> anim...@cox.net wrote:
>>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
>>>> gold. Oops
>>>
>>> IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so much
>>> more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
>>
>> I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
>>
> The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
> episode meant "dilithium".
>
dilithium. I always assume that’s the order in which they exist and that
dilithium is cracked with them. But we’ve seen the big E repair herself
with both lithium and freshly cracked stuff. I’m sure we could probably
wank it somehow that plain lithium can be used in a pinch but it’s a lot
better to refine it.
Ubiquitous
Aug 22, 2022, 5:47:54 PM8/22/22
to
In article <te0n8b$2ob9c$1...@dont-email.me>, dtr...@sonic.net wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
>> anim...@cox.net wrote:
>>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>>> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
>>>> gold. Oops
>>>
>>> IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so
>>> much more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
>>
>> I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
>
>The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
>episode meant "dilithium".
Are you sure he didn't mean "mood stabilizers"? Mudd did seem a bit manic.
> On 8/22/2022 11:07 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
>> anim...@cox.net wrote:
>>> A Friend <no...@noway.com> wrote:
>>>> I just looked at the script for Mudd's Women, and Kirk doesn't mention
>>>> gold. Oops
>>>
>>> IIRC somebody does but only in the context of how Latinum is worth so
>>> much more than gold or diamonds. Might be Harry.
>>
>> I am pretty sure latnum didn't exist before DS9, maybe late in TNG.
>
>The reference was to "lithium crystals" which in the context of the
>episode meant "dilithium".
:-D
Dimensional Traveler
Aug 22, 2022, 6:03:29 PM8/22/22
to
being the same thing in TOS. The argument was largely based on the poor
continuity between the various writers using different terms for the
same thing in whatever series bible there was (assuming there even was one).
Dimensional Traveler
Aug 22, 2022, 6:05:20 PM8/22/22
to
replace their own dilithium crystals which were broken in some manner by
chasing down Mudd, I'm going with "Yes, I'm sure". :-P
anim8rfsk
Aug 22, 2022, 11:18:26 PM8/22/22
to
crystals are all the same thing, then what is that cracking station doing?
Especially if lithium crystals can be used raw right out of the ground.
Dimensional Traveler
Aug 23, 2022, 12:28:39 AM8/23/22
to
RichA
Aug 23, 2022, 7:54:11 AM8/23/22
to
On Saturday, 20 August 2022 at 21:06:08 UTC-4, Ubiquitous wrote:
> Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
> these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
> question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
> organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
> over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
> spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their
> ‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
> sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
>
> The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
> was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
> days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
> over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
> Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
> something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
> effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
> achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
> from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
> at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
> best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
> culture.
because not everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants are still regulated
by scarcity. The guy who sold tribbles sold them for something, though
Spock does say he has a modest living.
The man who played the man who was actually Merlin, Brahms, etc., having live
several lifetimes owned a planet. But then maybe he bought it or traded for
it from a non-human race?
> Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
> these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
> question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
> organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
> over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
> spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their
> ‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
> sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
>
> The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
> was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
> days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
> over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
> Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
> something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
> effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
> achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
> from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
> at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
> best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
> culture.
>
> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
> wanted to make wine? How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money
> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
> what they were born into.
>
> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
> wanted to make wine? How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money
> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
> what they were born into.
>
> The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko’s
> New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It’s great for Sisko, but what
> about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
> currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
> they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word)
> would not already have?
>
> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
> function?
>
> Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
> currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
> they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word)
> would not already have?
>
> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
> function?
>
> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
> slave race. The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if
> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>
> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
> societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>
> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
> elites, such as Picard.
>
> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
> elites, such as Picard.
>
> --
> Let's go Brandon!
There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard, probably
> Let's go Brandon!
because not everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants are still regulated
by scarcity. The guy who sold tribbles sold them for something, though
Spock does say he has a modest living.
The man who played the man who was actually Merlin, Brahms, etc., having live
several lifetimes owned a planet. But then maybe he bought it or traded for
it from a non-human race?
Ubiquitous
Aug 23, 2022, 1:38:19 PM8/23/22
to
davidjo...@yahoo.com wrote:
>There probably is some vine-growing land that is up for grabs because
>the previous owners released it to the government because they had no
>interest in viticulture. Alternative they take off to one of the
>underpopulated colonies that has some suitable land. They'd just have
>to show the government that they were serious about their pursuit of
>such a career.
Why would they have to prove need to Starfleet?
>Full AI probably isn't necessary for the really dirty jobs.
>The guy who sold tribbles lived before Earth got taken over by the
>commies.
Or left before it happened...
>the previous owners released it to the government because they had no
>interest in viticulture. Alternative they take off to one of the
>underpopulated colonies that has some suitable land. They'd just have
>to show the government that they were serious about their pursuit of
>such a career.
Why would they have to prove need to Starfleet?
>
>>> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
>>> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
>>> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what's the point if
>>> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career?
>
>Keeping the damn shrinks off your back.
>>> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
>>> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
>>> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what's the point if
>>> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career?
>
>
>>> Not everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
>>> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
>>> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>>>
>>> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
>>> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
>>> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
>>> societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
>>> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
>>> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
>>> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
>>> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
>>> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
>>> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
>>> elites, such as Picard.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Let's go Brandon!
>>
>> There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard,
>> probably because not everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants
>> are still regulated by scarcity. The guy who sold tribbles sold
>> them for something, though Spock does say he has a modest living.
Wasn't there a throwaway line about synth alcohol not being as good?
>>> Not everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
>>> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
>>> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>>>
>>> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
>>> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
>>> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
>>> societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
>>> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
>>> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
>>> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
>>> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
>>> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
>>> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
>>> elites, such as Picard.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Let's go Brandon!
>>
>> There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard,
>> probably because not everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants
>> are still regulated by scarcity. The guy who sold tribbles sold
>> them for something, though Spock does say he has a modest living.
>The guy who sold tribbles lived before Earth got taken over by the
>commies.
Or left before it happened...
0 new messages