Defiant vs. Warbird (was Re: Romulan Cloaking device)
Bret Ancowitz
>against the Warbird. It's the Romulan's Cloaking Device! Don't you think they
>would know how to detect a ship using their own cloaking technology?
The Romulans wouldn't necessarily know how to detect other cloaking technology, including their own. Remember the TNG episode "The Defector" where the 4 Klingon ships decloak and surprise the Romulans...
Bret
Suresh Singaratnam
>warbird, charge up it's souped up phasers, fire a couple dozen rounds
>and punch a hole straight through the warbird.
> Defiant can cloak and just watch.
> Warbird is history.
First of all, the Defiant couldn't fly inside the empty space inside the
Warbird. The Warbird's shields extend around the whole vessel like a big
bubble. The Defiant could not punch through with its hull. Secondly, I don't
understand why everyone insists the cloaking device would be effective
against the Warbird. It's the Romulan's Cloaking Device! Don't you think they
would know how to detect a ship using their own cloaking technology?
l8r,
Suresh S.
--iii-<
Suresh Singaratnam
I agree that the Defiant could hold its own in a battle against a Warbird.
But I'm saying the Romulans would probably detect it (even when cloaked)
before it could get inside. If you designed a cloaking device and distributed
it to a fleet of very powerful vessels, wouldn't you design a way to track
them for things like multivessel attacks so you would know where different
ships from your fleet were? Another reason for this would be to prevent
against rebellious acts against the Romulan government.
l8r,
Suresh S.
--iii-<
Major Rakal
would know what codes we give to each of the nullifier cores of ALL
Romulan cloaking devices onboard warbirds, therefore making detection of
our own ships an easy task. Second, why must you generalize the
situation? Yes, Romulans did invent cloaking technology, and yes the
Romulans gave cloaking technology to the Klingons (a BAD move, and yes,
the initiators of this technology exchange were executed by the
Tal-Shiar). But what is to say the Klingons didn't change the access
codes to the nulliefies cores on their ships? Besides, Klingon cloaking
devices used a faulty design, and Klingon scientists went their own way on
cloaking technology.
Face it the Federation envies the Romulan Star Empire, too bad we really
didn't get the funds from the Ferengi Alliance to arm ourselves to the
teeth.
I suggest being careful, Bret, the guy next to you in one of those
pretentious Yale classes might just be an undercover Tal-Shiar agent. So
be careful with what you say, ROMULUS IS LISTENING!
In article <3k3207$3...@news.ycc.yale.edu>, br...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Bret
Ancowitz) wrote:
--
<go...@america.com>
"Go, and declare to the Romulans the will of Xaunberh that my Romulus shall be the center of the Universe; so let them cherish the art of war, and let them know and teach their children that no strength can resist Romulan arms!"
D. Miller
>l8r,
> Suresh S.
>--iii-<
Well, if I was designing a cloaking device, and I knew a way to detect it, I
would make the cloaking device immune to that method. You're trying to make
a ship as invisible as your technology will allow....so if your technology
could detect the ship, don't you think the cloaking device engineers would
do something about that?
Dave......the Amazing Verteron Man
John Dilday
: Bret you may be a human Yale boy, but, first of all we at the Tal-Shiar
: would know what codes we give to each of the nullifier cores of ALL
: Romulan cloaking devices onboard warbirds, therefore making detection of
: our own ships an easy task. Second, why must you generalize the
: situation? Yes, Romulans did invent cloaking technology, and yes the
: Romulans gave cloaking technology to the Klingons (a BAD move, and yes,
: the initiators of this technology exchange were executed by the
: Tal-Shiar). But what is to say the Klingons didn't change the access
: codes to the nulliefies cores on their ships? Besides, Klingon cloaking
: devices used a faulty design, and Klingon scientists went their own way on
: cloaking technology.
"Nullifier cores" what in the world are nullifier cores? When were they
mentioned? Who said that Romulans invented cloaking technology? Sure, they
were the first on Star Trek to have it, that we saw. That dosen't mean
they invented it. Remember, the Aldeans had one, and it covered their
entire planet. Definately more advanced that the Roms, and probably
older. And it's never been said that any cloaking device was "faulty", or
flawed in any way.
- J. Seth DIlday
John Dilday
Jem'Hadar ship > Galaxy class
Galaxy class = Romulan warbird
Defiant > Romulan warbird
- J. Seth Dilday
Phil Wood
Football Team A beats Team B
Team B beats Team C
Team C draws Team D
does not guarantee Team A beats Team D
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Wood EMail ph...@optwood.demon.co.uk |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Wagner
Are you stupid or something? A Jem H'Dar ship cannot beat the Big E or
any Galaxy class ship for that matter. Compare the size and fire power.
As for galaxy vs. warbird, the outcome will be based on the skill of the
captains, not firepower.
Suresh Singaratnam
>any Galaxy class ship for that matter. Compare the size and fire power.
>As for galaxy vs. warbird, the outcome will be based on the skill of the
>captains, not firepower.
Actually, If you remember the season 2 finale of DS9 (The Search, Part I), A
squadron of only 2 or 3 Jem'Hadar battleships did destroy the USS Odessey, a
Galaxy Class Starship.
l8r,
Suresh S.
--iii-<
Aric West
CW>From: wag...@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Chris Wagner)
CW>Date: 19 Mar 1995 13:13:24 GMT
CW>Are you stupid or something? A Jem H'Dar ship cannot beat the Big E or
CW>any Galaxy class ship for that matter. Compare the size and fire power.
CW>As for galaxy vs. warbird, the outcome will be based on the skill of the
CW>captains, not firepower.
Oh but a Jem Hedar ship will make a kamikaze run. Look what happened to
the USS Odyssey, a Galaxy class ship. Three Jem Hedar ships bloodied it
up, and one ship rammed into the engineering section, wiping out the Big
O.
---
* KingQWK 1.05 * Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
Marc Gonzales Escuro
I take it you are not a DS9 fan? The USS Odyssey was destroy by
3 Jem'Hadar ships. Remember these are really puny ships too.
In addition to the Galaxy class Odyssey, there were 3 runabouts,
1 was disabled by Jake, the other had it's navigational array
blasted to bits, and the other one was OK.
Size means nothing. Galaxy class ships were the best and most
powerful of starfleet and even it's full phasers couldn't stop
(let alone scratch) a Jem'Hadar ship.
A few bursts from the DEFIANT's enhanced phasers put and end to
the Jem'Hadar ships.
One can noe conclude that the DEFIANT is superior in firepower
to the Galaxy class ship.
--
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
You think the only people who are people || Marc Escuro [R]
Are the people who look and think like you || (aka Bryan Esquire)
But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger || (aka Bucko)
You learn things you never knew, you never knew. ||
from "Colors of the Wind" || UC, Santa Cruz
-Pocahontas || bas...@cats.ucsc.edu
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
George Lianeris
> Actually, If you remember the season 2 finale of DS9 (The Search, Part I), A
> squadron of only 2 or 3 Jem'Hadar battleships did destroy the USS Odessey, a
> Galaxy Class Starship.
>
were losing so they kamikazeed into the Odyssey...not to mention that
their phased poleron beam gave them an unfair advantage...Odyssey was
simply not prepaired for that fight.
--
Lt. Cmdr. George Lianeris CSS Cathawk, Tactical Officer
Captain George Lianeris CSS DreamStar, Commanding Officer
"Captain, this pultry appears to be raw!"
"Gentlemen, set phasers on roast!!!"
Joe Nieten
writes:
>
Uhhh ... I think there was a galaxy class ship destroyed on one of the DS9
episodes ... and I think (well if memory serves me) that it was destroyed by a
Jem'Hadar ship.
Suresh Singaratnam
I was just trying to say that a Jem'Hadar ship COULD defeat a Galaxy class
ship in battle. The message I replied stated otherwise.
l8r,
Suresh S.
--iii-<
Marc Gonzales Escuro
In article <D5psI...@freenet.carleton.ca> ai...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (George Lianeris) writes:
>
> Yeah, but rememberthat Odyssey had lost it's shield and the Jem'Hadar
>were losing so they kamikazeed into the Odyssey...not to mention that
>their phased poleron beam gave them an unfair advantage...Odyssey was
>simply not prepaired for that fight.
>
episode.
The Jem'Hadar's weapons could penetrate the shields of the Odyssey
and the Runabouts, so it was useless to keep drawing more power to
the shields. Instead, the order was given to drop shields and
to divert all power to weapons. Since when were the Jem'Hadar
losing?
The main point DS9 tried to make was that Federation technology
was insufficient to deal with the threaet of the Dominion at
that point. Their shields were useless and their phasers were
underpowered. Also, the kamikazee attack of the Jem'Hadar ship
pointed out that the Dominion were willing to do anything to
demonstrate their power and willingness to defeat the Federation.
Defiant was brought on line because it is the most powerful ship
in the Federation. It is carrying phasers that are over 30%
more powerful than those on Galaxy class and most likely have
frequency rotation in the phasers themselves to prevent Borg
from adapting. (Definat was built to destroy the BORG.)
You are right though---Odyssey was NOT prepared for that fight.
That's why DS9 is now armed to the teeth and the Defiant is
there.
Chung, Peter W.
>
>In article <D5psI...@freenet.carleton.ca> ai...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (George Lianeris) writes:
>>
> The main point DS9 tried to make was that Federation technology
> was insufficient to deal with the threaet of the Dominion at
> that point. Their shields were useless and their phasers were
> underpowered. Also, the kamikazee attack of the Jem'Hadar ship
Must have been the same writers who wrote "Generations".
As far as the phasers being underpowered, that's not the case everytime.
One of the big problems is that they were when they knew the frequencies
(as the Borg have proved time and again). Plus, the shields obviousy
didn't cover the necessary frequencies the Jem'Hedar used for attacking.
That's always the problem with first encounters. The Odyssey captain
just couldn't compensate quick enough.
> pointed out that the Dominion were willing to do anything to
> demonstrate their power and willingness to defeat the Federation.
> Defiant was brought on line because it is the most powerful ship
> in the Federation. It is carrying phasers that are over 30%
Not so. The Defiant is considered an escort ship,overpowered for its size and
packing alot of specialized weaponry to deal with the Borg problem.
That doesn't make it more powerful overall than a Galaxy
class because this time, they were prepared for Jem'Hedar weaponry.
> more powerful than those on Galaxy class and most likely have
> frequency rotation in the phasers themselves to prevent Borg
> from adapting. (Definat was built to destroy the BORG.)
It would be silly to think that only the Defiant was built to destroy the
Borg. I'm sure there were various other designs built also. Some more
powerful, some less. And who knows, maybe certain parts of the
Intrepid class incorporated the technology.
> You are right though---Odyssey was NOT prepared for that fight.
> That's why DS9 is now armed to the teeth and the Defiant is
> there.
Here's a question, why didn't Sisko in the "O'Brien Time Hopping epsiode"
threaten to send the Defiant after the Warbird? Perhaps he wasn't
sure it could do the job?
xca...@mec.ohio.gov
Actually, the Jem H'Dar were able to destroy a Galaxy class starship in last
year's season finale. But, the Jem H'Dar ship did kamikaze into the ship, so
there was very little chance for it to survive.
Besides that, the Jem H'Dar were kicking everyone's butts, especially the
Galaxy class ship. The weapons the Jem H'Dar ships used apparantly penatrated
the shields on the Federation ships as if they were not there. So, we have an
enormous, not highly maneuverable, Galaxy class ship with basicly no shielding.
It was really taking a pounding. In fact, the smaller and more maneuverable
Runabouts were doing pretty well against the Jem H'Dar ships. Remember, size
isn't always an asset.
Marc Gonzales Escuro
In article <20MAR199...@jane.uh.edu> st...@jane.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>>
>>>
>
>As far as the phasers being underpowered, that's not the case everytime.
>One of the big problems is that they were when they knew the frequencies
>(as the Borg have proved time and again). Plus, the shields obviousy
>didn't cover the necessary frequencies the Jem'Hedar used for attacking.
>That's always the problem with first encounters. The Odyssey captain
>just couldn't compensate quick enough.
The new phaser frequencies failed to stop the Borg. Remember
in Best of Both Worlds when they thad that meeting in Main
Engineering about retunig all phasers? Well, obviously, they
didn't work against the ship. The only way they were able to
keep the Borg from getting them the first time were phaser
bursts that were continually rotating. Then and only then did
the Borg break the tractor beam, but there was NO visible damage.
The Jem'Hadar's phased polaron beam were able to penetrate the
Odyssey's shields. The Odyssey captain had rotate the frequency
of the shield to encompass the entire spectrum and the beams
were still getting through. Whatever the technology behind the
Jem'hadar's weaponry is, it was able to penetrate the shields.
>Not so. The Defiant is considered an escort ship,overpowered for its size and
>packing alot of specialized weaponry to deal with the Borg problem.
>That doesn't make it more powerful overall than a Galaxy
>class because this time, they were prepared for Jem'Hedar weaponry.
True. The DEFIANTis classified as an Escort class vessel.
Unofficially, it is classified as a warship. It was built under
the supervision of Ben Sisko at Utopia Planitia Ship Yards.
To quote SIsko, "Defiant was built for one purpose, to fight
and defeat the BORG." It is overpowered for it's size and it
does have specialized weaponry. As of yet we don't know if
VOYAGER has these weapons. We know that VOYAGER has photon and
not quantum torpedoes and their phsers look the same as those on
Galaxy class.
Also stated in a DS9 episode, the phasers are enhanced by rerouting
them through plasma conduits to give an overall 30% increase
in phaser power. Now those are DEFINITELY MORE POWERFUL than
those found on Galaxy Class.
>It would be silly to think that only the Defiant was built to destroy the
>Borg. I'm sure there were various other designs built also. Some more
>powerful, some less. And who knows, maybe certain parts of the
>Intrepid class incorporated the technology.
Wrong again. As stated in DS9, Defiant was built for one purpose--
to defeat the BORG. So when the Borg threat subsided, there was
no more need for the Defiant, so the project was scrapped. THat's
why the ship sill has the designation NX and not NCC.
This is the first and ONLY warship ever built by the Federation.
And more likely the technology in the Defiant is not in
Intrepid class ships because Defiant's technology was mainly
experimental.
>Here's a question, why didn't Sisko in the "O'Brien Time Hopping epsiode"
>threaten to send the Defiant after the Warbird? Perhaps he wasn't
>sure it could do the job?
Maybe because the Defiant couldn't sneak up on the warbird without
cloaking and the Feds are forbidden to use the cloak in the
Alpha quadrant.
Also, they didn't want to alert the Romulans that they knew what
they were up to. So it was easier to lock on 50 some odd torpedoes
on the quantum singularity orbiting the station than to launch
the Defiant.
The Defiant can do the job if needed, but DS9 is armed to the teeth,
so why launch the ship when the station will do just nicely?
JORDAN SPENSER AARON
Season Finaly; DS9; destruction of USS Odyssey (Galaxy class ship) by Jem
H'Dar. Sure, argue that they had to ram the Odyssey to destroy her. I
argue that she would have blown up any way, had she not turned tail for the
worm hole.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/-----------\ No matter where yo go
| |------| | There you are
| | __ |__| __
JORDAN SPENSER AARON
Marc Gonzales Escuro <bas...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>Are you stupid or something? A Jem H'Dar ship cannot beat the Big E or
>>any Galaxy class ship for that matter. Compare the size and fire power.
>>As for galaxy vs. warbird, the outcome will be based on the skill of the
>>captains, not firepower.
>
> I take it you are not a DS9 fan? The USS Odyssey was destroy by
> 3 Jem'Hadar ships. Remember these are really puny ships too.
> In addition to the Galaxy class Odyssey, there were 3 runabouts,
> 1 was disabled by Jake, the other had it's navigational array
> blasted to bits, and the other one was OK.
> Size means nothing. Galaxy class ships were the best and most
> powerful of starfleet and even it's full phasers couldn't stop
> (let alone scratch) a Jem'Hadar ship.
> A few bursts from the DEFIANT's enhanced phasers put and end to
> the Jem'Hadar ships.
> One can noe conclude that the DEFIANT is superior in firepower
> to the Galaxy class ship.
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like so many of us Sci-Fi fans have to do in these matters, I will base my
arguments on my personal beliefs and not cannon. Ok, here we go:
The fact that the Defiant was able to blow up a Jem H'Dar ship, in my
opinion is a result of a poor plot devices and not the conclusion that
the Defiant is superior in firepower. Don't get me wrong, I love the
Defiant and it has some really big guns. Bigger even that our venerably
Enterprise. But the boys over at Paramount had to find some way of
weakening the Jem H'Dar just as they did with the Borg so that their lack
of script writing creativity would not leave us fans watching the final
season of DS9.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JORDAN SPENSER AARON
George Lianeris <ai...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>> Actually, If you remember the season 2 finale of DS9 (The Search, Part I), A
>> squadron of only 2 or 3 Jem'Hadar battleships did destroy the USS Odessey, a
>> Galaxy Class Starship.
>>
> Yeah, but rememberthat Odyssey had lost it's shield and the Jem'Hadar
>were losing so they kamikazeed into the Odyssey...not to mention that
>their phased poleron beam gave them an unfair advantage...Odyssey was
>simply not prepaired for that fight.
AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! Do you think cruise missles are un unfair
advantage? We used them in Desert Storm againts Saddam. Should we not
have because it was unfair to do so. HA! We flew them up his ASS!
Chung, Peter W.
>
[snip]
>
> The new phaser frequencies failed to stop the Borg. Remember
> in Best of Both Worlds when they thad that meeting in Main
> Engineering about retunig all phasers? Well, obviously, they
> didn't work against the ship. The only way they were able to
> keep the Borg from getting them the first time were phaser
> bursts that were continually rotating. Then and only then did
> the Borg break the tractor beam, but there was NO visible damage.
I point to the original encounter between the Borg and the Enterprise-D.
30% of the Borg ship was destroyed because the Borg never met or seen
a phaser before. Once they figured out the limitations of the phaser (its
frequency range, max output, firing time, recharge rate, etc.) no amount
of compensation short of a brand new weapon could be completely effective
against the Borg.
>
> The Jem'Hadar's phased polaron beam were able to penetrate the
> Odyssey's shields. The Odyssey captain had rotate the frequency
> of the shield to encompass the entire spectrum and the beams
> were still getting through. Whatever the technology behind the
> Jem'hadar's weaponry is, it was able to penetrate the shields.
>
Because the shields weren't designed to cover or were not able to without
someone like Scotty or Spock around to "jury-rig on the fly" new shields
or have a better plan other than sit and fight. The thing is that there
were survivors, and they now had sensor data to analyze these phased
poleron beams so the next time around (i.e. DEFIANT) and all the other
ships of the Fed won't be as susceptible.
>>Not so. The Defiant is considered an escort ship,overpowered for its size and
>>packing alot of specialized weaponry to deal with the Borg problem.
>>That doesn't make it more powerful overall than a Galaxy
>>class because this time, they were prepared for Jem'Hedar weaponry.
>
> True. The DEFIANTis classified as an Escort class vessel.
> Unofficially, it is classified as a warship. It was built under
> the supervision of Ben Sisko at Utopia Planitia Ship Yards.
> To quote SIsko, "Defiant was built for one purpose, to fight
> and defeat the BORG." It is overpowered for it's size and it
^^^^^^
Exactly, it is overpowered for its size. Does that mean it puts out more
power than a Galaxy-class? Not necessarily. Does it put out more power than
a Escort? Obviously YES. Not debating that point at all.
COntinuing this power output business, we've seen the Defiant vaporize
a Jem'Hedar on the first salvo (Of course, I am assuming this time they
were a little more prepared after studying the Big-O's battle.) Yet,
the same Defiant didn't vaporize any Cardassian warships in "Defiant".
With this evidence, I conclude that the Jem'Hedar ship was very unlucky,
and the Defiant is not that powerful.
> does have specialized weaponry. As of yet we don't know if
> VOYAGER has these weapons. We know that VOYAGER has photon and
> not quantum torpedoes and their phsers look the same as those on
> Galaxy class.
> Also stated in a DS9 episode, the phasers are enhanced by rerouting
> them through plasma conduits to give an overall 30% increase
> in phaser power. Now those are DEFINITELY MORE POWERFUL than
> those found on Galaxy Class.
>
You're basing that assumption again on whether an overpowered Escort is
more powerful than a Explorer (which is considered the most powerful).
>>It would be silly to think that only the Defiant was built to destroy the
>>Borg. I'm sure there were various other designs built also. Some more
>>powerful, some less. And who knows, maybe certain parts of the
>>Intrepid class incorporated the technology.
>
> Wrong again. As stated in DS9, Defiant was built for one purpose--
> to defeat the BORG. So when the Borg threat subsided, there was
> no more need for the Defiant, so the project was scrapped. THat's
> why the ship sill has the designation NX and not NCC.
You're not serious that the Fed is going to build only ONE ship? The
design was eventually shelved because not only the Borg threat went away but
the ship was *unstable*. If the ship wasn't, and it was a proven design
I'm sure the Feds will build more than one. (At least six :) )
> This is the first and ONLY warship ever built by the Federation.
> And more likely the technology in the Defiant is not in
I don't think that this is the first warship ever built by the Feds.
There are the Dreadnaughts of TMP fame, the implied "Military" branch
from "The Undiscovered Country" where one of the officers at the meeting
ask "Mothball starfleet?" "Well, we'll keep the Exploration Branch".
> Intrepid class ships because Defiant's technology was mainly
> experimental.
>
>>Here's a question, why didn't Sisko in the "O'Brien Time Hopping epsiode"
>>threaten to send the Defiant after the Warbird? Perhaps he wasn't
>>sure it could do the job?
>
> The Defiant can do the job if needed, but DS9 is armed to the teeth,
> so why launch the ship when the station will do just nicely?
So the Warbird theoretically couldn't escape :)
Marc Gonzales Escuro
In article <20MAR199...@elroy.uh.edu> st...@elroy.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>
>I point to the original encounter between the Borg and the Enterprise-D.
>30% of the Borg ship was destroyed because the Borg never met or seen
>a phaser before. Once they figured out the limitations of the phaser (its
>frequency range, max output, firing time, recharge rate, etc.) no amount
>of compensation short of a brand new weapon could be completely effective
>against the Borg.
Yeah, but how many times did Worf have to fire the main phasers
until 1701-D was able blast the left corner of the cube and then
the direct center and then the tractor emitter? Picard said fire.
Worf did. Nothing. Picard says, "Uses whatever force necessary
and terminate that beam. Fire when ready." 3 holes. Obviously
Worf had to do something to destroy 30% of the cube; he probably
increased power. Which brings me to the next point of the 30%
increase in phaser power in the Defiant. Also, we don't know if
its phasers have self-frequency rotation capabilities. If
so, then the Borg would have little chance at something that
can adapt along with it. ALso, Defiant is equipped with new
weapons (quantum torpedoes).
>Because the shields weren't designed to cover or were not able to without
>someone like Scotty or Spock around to "jury-rig on the fly" new shields
>or have a better plan other than sit and fight. The thing is that there
>were survivors, and they now had sensor data to analyze these phased
>poleron beams so the next time around (i.e. DEFIANT) and all the other
>ships of the Fed won't be as susceptible.
How in the world can you jury rig new shields? Shields are shields.
They stop all forms of energy by dispersing it around the spherical
area it creates (I think). Now matter what, the shields were useless
against the Jem'Hadar weapons. Shield frequency rotation was
attempted, but that was futile. They ran through the entire
spectrum. How is it possible to go beyond the existing spectrum?
If you'll notice, the Jem'Hadar's beams were still going through the
Defiant's shields. Yes, I did notice that SIsko said, raise
shields, but if you'll look at the battle scenes, you WILL NOT
see the familiar transparent sphere that appears when the shields
are hit. Instead, you'll see the beams glossing over the
Defiant's hulls. Therefore, shields were useless and Fed ships
are still susceptible.
>Exactly, it is overpowered for its size. Does that mean it puts out more
>power than a Galaxy-class? Not necessarily. Does it put out more power than
>a Escort? Obviously YES. Not debating that point at all.
What exactly are you trying to get at? Defiant is about 4-5 times
larger than a runabout. (It has a shuttlebay.) It is overpowered
because it is packing so much to power the weapons it's carrying.
It's a strained little ship that blows it's engines when it
goes max. warp.
Again, note that it is officially classified as an escort, but
unofficially, it is the Federation's first warship. It was built
to fight the Borg. (Search Pt.1)
>COntinuing this power output business, we've seen the Defiant vaporize
>a Jem'Hedar on the first salvo (Of course, I am assuming this time they
>were a little more prepared after studying the Big-O's battle.) Yet,
>the same Defiant didn't vaporize any Cardassian warships in "Defiant".
>With this evidence, I conclude that the Jem'Hedar ship was very unlucky,
>and the Defiant is not that powerful.
No vaporization probably because the warship was about 10 times
larger that the Defiant. Remember when the Defiant too shelter
from the incoming Cardassian super-warships? Defiant was SO
TINY compared to the Cardassian warship. Look at the episode again.
Now, imagine. The Jem'Hadar ships are approximately the same
size of the Defiant. Fine. A couple blasts from the enhanced
phaser array would blow it to pieces. Now imagine the Defiant's
phasers on a target 10-15 times its size. Will it blow it
to bits? Probably not. However, a few bursts from the Defiant's
phasers put one warship out of commission and 2 quantum torpedoes
shut down another one. Now look at the size of Defiant. That
ship is one powerful m****r f****r.
>You're not serious that the Fed is going to build only ONE ship? The
>design was eventually shelved because not only the Borg threat went away but
>the ship was *unstable*. If the ship wasn't, and it was a proven design
>I'm sure the Feds will build more than one. (At least six :) )
The design was still in experimental stages. That's why it's
still designated as NX-?????. They only built one. Do you remember
ST3? Remember NX-2000? How many Excelsiors did they have?
ONE. What's the use of building more than one prototype?
Yes, I will agree, the ship was unstable, but the flaws can be
worked out of its systems, which is why O'Brien is constantly
working on it. (Defiant) Remember also the Adm. Hanson had
state in "Best of Both World Pt1" that most of the new defenses
were still on the drawing board and the closest thing they had
to a working prototype was still a couple months away. SHelby
was probably referring to the Defiant class ships. Also, Definant
was a first of it's kind. It's the first Federation warship.
The Federation had always believed that they do not believe in
warships, just heavily armed "peace ships." :)
1701-A was a heavy cruiser (or battlecruiser can't remember (ST6?)
Excelsior is a battleship. Galaxy is a heavy cruiser.
No warship. Definat is the 1st. When the need for one went
away, so did the ship -- until now.
Refeerence to Defiant being a warship is stated by Gul (something)
in "Defiant."
>There are the Dreadnaughts of TMP fame, the implied "Military" branch
>from "The Undiscovered Country" where one of the officers at the meeting
>ask "Mothball starfleet?" "Well, we'll keep the Exploration Branch".
I'm curious, what ships would you consider to be DREADNAUGHT?
There is no mention of dreadnaughts in any movie that I can
remember. They only place where I even saw the word dreadnaught
is in TOS tech manuals (which are non-canon). They had 3 warp
nacelles. Excelsior wasn't a dreadnaught. Reliant isn't one.
Saratoga isn't one. 1701-A isn't one. Are there any other
Federation ships that were in the movies? 1701-D isn't one.
1701-B is the same class as NCC-2000.
>So the Warbird theoretically couldn't escape :)
Nope. 50 photons? No way. Plus they had the ability to
track the warbird. No escape.
Kevin Armstrong
>From: zap...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Barnaby Brown)
>Subject: Re: Defiant vs. Warbird (was Re: Romulan Cloaking device)
>Date: 21 Mar 1995 07:19:11 GMT
>Chris Wagner (wag...@ucunix.san.uc.edu) wrote:
>What happened it 'The Jem'Hadar' then?
>--
> -=============================-Barnaby Brown-============================-
> zap...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au,bar...@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au,cs03...@cs.uwa.edu.au
> "If there's anything more important than my ego around here,
> I want it caught and shot now" --Beeblebrox
The Jem'Hadar rammed the Odyssey. Not exactly a fair move if you want to
compare firepower. Any speed boat could sink a battleship or an aircraft
carrier if it was packed with enough explosives. If a Galaxy class starship
were primed and ready for battle, it could kick just about anythings butt
short of a big Borb cube. According to the Next Generation Tech Manual,
Galaxy class starships mount Type X phasers, which are the most powereful type
of phasers installed on starships. The only type of phaser more powerful are
planetary defence phasers. And if I remeber correctly, in that episode where
the crew loses it's memory, and that one alien dude tries to make them wipe
out his enemies, its stated that the Enterprise has 10 banks of these phasers.
It is also stated that the Big E carriers something in the neighborhood of
250 Photon Torpedoes. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to argue
with anyone whould said they were the most powerful and had that arsenal to
back it up. Basicly put, a Galaxy class starship could kick anyone's butt if
it really wanted to.
Chris Wagner
> I take it you are not a DS9 fan? The USS Odyssey was destroy by
> 3 Jem'Hadar ships. Remember these are really puny ships too.
> In addition to the Galaxy class Odyssey, there were 3 runabouts,
> 1 was disabled by Jake, the other had it's navigational array
> blasted to bits, and the other one was OK.
> Size means nothing. Galaxy class ships were the best and most
> powerful of starfleet and even it's full phasers couldn't stop
> (let alone scratch) a Jem'Hadar ship.
> A few bursts from the DEFIANT's enhanced phasers put and end to
> the Jem'Hadar ships.
> One can noe conclude that the DEFIANT is superior in firepower
> to the Galaxy class ship.
I watch DS9 with a passion. Apparently I didn't see that episode. But
it still took 3 ships to destroy the Odyssey. It was an unfair fight.
This also means that there are only two Galaxy class ships left in the
Federation. (Big E, Yamato, Odyssey destroyed)
Inept Juggler
: > Actually, If you remember the season 2 finale of DS9 (The Search, Part I), A
: > squadron of only 2 or 3 Jem'Hadar battleships did destroy the USS Odessey, a
: > Galaxy Class Starship.
: >
: Yeah, but rememberthat Odyssey had lost it's shield and the Jem'Hadar
: were losing so they kamikazeed into the Odyssey...not to mention that
: their phased poleron beam gave them an unfair advantage...Odyssey was
: simply not prepaired for that fight.
Ermm??? Unfair advantage??? This is real combat, not an exercise! In combat
whatever gets your side victory with the minimal casualties *is* fair! The
fact that the Feds screwed up (again) and wheren't ready is their own
problem!
--
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but this one is *mine*!
[ http://www.york.ac.uk/~ajg101/ ]
Finger ajg...@tower.york.ac.uk for my PGP key.
Michael D. Cornelius
I feel it is my moral obligation to point out that maneuverability has
played little or no role in the outcome of any ship to ship battle I
have seen on Star Trek. Regardless of the firing or target ship's
agility, weapons nearly always strike home. (The only exception to
this I can think of is combat between runabout sized ships and
in this case it is the result of a fixed forward firing arc.)
Further, I think the Defiant is being given too much credit because of
its "Borg Fighter" label. I don't believe the Defiant was meant to bring
about the fall of the collective all by itself. It is a small, simple,
yet powerful design meant for ease of production in order to flesh out
Starfleet, whose forces were greatly diminished at Wolf 359. It
incorporates certain elements designed specifically to combat the
Borg, but this does not make it the be all and end all of battleships.
It has been argued that the Defiant must be able to defeat a Warbird,
because it could defeat a Jem'Hadar ship, and a Jem'Hadar ship can
defeat a Galaxy class ship which is comparable to a Warbird. I find
this argument weak in a couple of areas. First, the Jem'Hadar did not
truly defeat the Odyssey in combat. Destroying the Odyssey by ramming
her did not demonstrate greater power or prowess in battle on the part
of the Jem'Hadar. It did show a fatalistic commitment to that battle,
however -- a sort of "we're going to take you with us" attitude.
Could it be argued that if the captain of the Odyssey had made the
decision to ram the Jem'Hadar ship, thereby destroying it (and
probably the Odyssey as well) that Galaxy class ships are superior to
those of the Jem'Hadar? I don't think so.
The other point of contention I have with the
Defiant>Jem'Hadar>Galaxy=Warbird argument is the assertion that Galaxy
class vessels are equivalent to Warbirds. This is not an "apples to
apples" comparison. We not only have to account for the differences in
design resulting from the differences in philosophy and ideology
between the Federation and the Romulan Empire, but we must also
recognize the differences in roles between the two types of vessel.
The Galaxy class is a multirole exploration vessel (the Federation is
a strong advocate of peace, right?). In a pinch, one of those roles
is combat. The D'deridex class is a multirole warship. It can perform
exploratory missions as well, but very likely goes in with both
disruptors and sensors fully powered. Someone has already pointed out
that the Warbird's weapons are about four times more powerful than
those of a Galaxy class vessel. (Just as a side note here: If we
assume, as some have, that the Defiant's phasers are 30% more powerful
than those of the Enterprise, and we use the numbers given in the
tactical section of the Tech Manual, we find that the Warbird's weapons
are still 202% more powerful than the Defiant's.) Because of these
differences in roles, there are things that a Galaxy class vessel will
be able to do better than a Warbird and vice versa. These ships are not
equivalent, and I am arguing that combat is one of the things a Warbird
will do better than a Galaxy class.
The other argument for the superiority of the Defiant is its ability
to overcome several Cardassian ships. I agree this is to the Defiant's
credit, that with an inexperienced crew of Maquis it was able to
accomplish this, but, nevertheless, a couple of things need to be
recognized. In VOY:Caretaker a single Cardassian cruiser was having
significant trouble subduing a single, much smaller Maquis vessel. The
Cardassian vessel scored several direct hits with its main battery which
did relatively little damage. The Defiant did not encounter a unified
squadron of Cardassian ships, but rather a number of them each
intercepting and engaging the Defiant individually. Remember, they were
being called in from all over Cardassian space. They did not make a
coordinated attack. Also, the Defiant has a cloaking device which
provides a significant tactical advantage over an opponent not so well
accoutered. Finally, let's not forget that the Cardassian Union is
really a second rate empire. Expansionist, yes. Aggressive, yes. But
still not much more than a galactic Banana Republic divided against
itself (remember the Obsidian Order vs. the Military). It's threat lies
not so much in some huge military capacity but in its unpredictability.
Their ships might not be that great, but the Cardassians seem like the
types who might use a star-killer weapon against a civilian target if
things aren't going their way. I guess what I am trying to say is, I
would expect similar results from a fully committed Galaxy class vessel,
or a Warbird for that matter. If Captain Picard swooped into Cardassian
space and told Worf, "Blow 'em away, Lieutenant. Make it so." instead
of "Target only the weapon systems." I think the Enterprise would kick
butt, too, before the Cardassians could muster a coordinated counter
attack. The USS Phoenix, recall, made quick work of Cardassian warships
as well.
Finally, barring all of the above, I submit the following alternate
ending for the time hopping episode "Miles & Miles Excellent
Adventure"...
INT. DS9 Ops
O'BRIEN
(Bursts into ops.) Commander! The singularity is a
cloaked Romulan Warbird orbiting the station.
SISKO
How many torpedos do we have in the stores?
KIRA
Fifty, Commander.
SISKO
Fifty, eh? (beat, Sisko grins devilishly) I've got a
better idea.
INT. Defiant bridge, a few minutes later.
SISKO
Activate the cloaking device, chief.
DAX
Benjamin, what about Subcommander T'Rul?
O'BRIEN
(Working cloaking device controls.) Oh, her. I hit
her over the head with a hydrospanner and left her
with the Klingons.
DAX
(Nods approvingly.)
SISKO
Let's go get 'em. Full impulse!
EXT. Space
The Defiant fades from sight as it accelerates away from the station.
INT. Defiant bridge
SISKO
Standby cloaking device. Prepare to fire.
INT. Warbird bridge
CENTURION
Commander! There's a ship decloaking off the stern!
(clutches her console as the Warbird rocks under a hail
of pulsed phaser fire from the Defiant.) It's the
Defiant, Commander.
COMMANDER
Indeed. (beat, just long enough for him to narrow his eyes
and sneer) Activate the self destruct mechanism we cleverly
concealed in the Defiant's cloaking device.
EXT. Space
An explosion erupts from the Defiant's hull, sending it tumbling. Then
it is engulfed the the blue-white brilliance of a warp core breach.
INT. Warbird bridge
COMMANDER
Damage report.
CENTURION
Moderate damage to the upper wing section. (beat)
Our cloak is functional and singularity containment intact.
COMMANDER
Well done. Let's finish this mission and go home.
EXT. Space
The Warbird arcs toward the wormhole, releasing several torpedos. The
wormhole opens like a fiery flower to accept this lastest traffic. The
warbird swings around and by the camera as it cloaks. The wormhole
coughs and sputters as the torpedos detonate and collapses in upon
itself one final time.
(Despite what the writers might do to them, Romulans aren't stupid.)
--
Michael Cornelius | Heedless of a person's intentions, the mouth acts
| like a tiger which bites the speaker's own body and
m...@csealumni.unl.edu | the tongue turns into a sword which cuts short its
mic...@dsndata.com | owner's life. -- Ihara Saikaku
Chung, Peter W.
>
>In article <20MAR199...@elroy.uh.edu> st...@elroy.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>>
>
> Yeah, but how many times did Worf have to fire the main phasers
THREE TIMES. Each shot took out 10% of the borg cube. Literally.
> until 1701-D was able blast the left corner of the cube and then
> the direct center and then the tractor emitter? Picard said fire.
> Worf did. Nothing. Picard says, "Uses whatever force necessary
> and terminate that beam. Fire when ready." 3 holes. Obviously
> Worf had to do something to destroy 30% of the cube; he probably
> increased power. Which brings me to the next point of the 30%
> increase in phaser power in the Defiant. Also, we don't know if
> its phasers have self-frequency rotation capabilities.
Worf got those 3 shots in before the Borg had a chance to adapt. Afterwards,
nothing got through.
If
> so, then the Borg would have little chance at something that
> can adapt along with it. ALso, Defiant is equipped with new
> weapons (quantum torpedoes).
>
>>Because the shields weren't designed to cover or were not able to without
>>someone like Scotty or Spock around to "jury-rig on the fly" new shields
>>or have a better plan other than sit and fight. The thing is that there
>>were survivors, and they now had sensor data to analyze these phased
>>poleron beams so the next time around (i.e. DEFIANT) and all the other
>>ships of the Fed won't be as susceptible.
>
[snip]
> spectrum. How is it possible to go beyond the existing spectrum?
> If you'll notice, the Jem'Hadar's beams were still going through the
Then obviously they weren't covering the right part of the spectrum.
They can't possibly cover the existing spectrum because they admit not
to have even researched into the deepest subspace domains, etc. Plus
different methods of using the shields create different effects (like
the old metaphasic shielding). It won't be too long before the writers
add to the Feds the ability to shield against Jem'Hedar weaponry.
> Defiant's shields. Yes, I did notice that SIsko said, raise
> shields, but if you'll look at the battle scenes, you WILL NOT
> see the familiar transparent sphere that appears when the shields
> are hit. Instead, you'll see the beams glossing over the
> Defiant's hulls. Therefore, shields were useless and Fed ships
> are still susceptible.
If this is correct, then the Defiant is still running with the same type
of shields, so it will be succeptible to standard phaser and disruptor fire,
say, from a Warbird, eh?
[snip]
>>COntinuing this power output business, we've seen the Defiant vaporize
>>a Jem'Hedar on the first salvo (Of course, I am assuming this time they
>>were a little more prepared after studying the Big-O's battle.) Yet,
>>the same Defiant didn't vaporize any Cardassian warships in "Defiant".
>>With this evidence, I conclude that the Jem'Hedar ship was very unlucky,
>>and the Defiant is not that powerful.
>
> No vaporization probably because the warship was about 10 times
> larger that the Defiant. Remember when the Defiant too shelter
> from the incoming Cardassian super-warships? Defiant was SO
> TINY compared to the Cardassian warship. Look at the episode again.
The Defiant wasn't that small. Cardie ships are about half the length of
a Galaxy, putting it roughly the same size as a Constitution or Intrepid
class. The Defiant was maybe 2/3rds the length of a cardie ship.
> to bits? Probably not. However, a few bursts from the Defiant's
> phasers put one warship out of commission and 2 quantum torpedoes
> shut down another one. Now look at the size of Defiant. That
> ship is one powerful m****r f****r.
A damaged USS Pheonix vaporized one Cardie Warship with if I remember correctly
one torpedo salvo (I don't remember if Data said one torpedo or several
torpedoes. I'll check later.) Cardassian ships really aren't that tough,
yet, the Defiant still couldn't take a squadron out.
>>You're not serious that the Fed is going to build only ONE ship? The
>>design was eventually shelved because not only the Borg threat went away but
>>the ship was *unstable*. If the ship wasn't, and it was a proven design
>>I'm sure the Feds will build more than one. (At least six :) )
[snip]
> to a working prototype was still a couple months away. SHelby
> was probably referring to the Defiant class ships. Also, Definant
> was a first of it's kind. It's the first Federation warship.
> The Federation had always believed that they do not believe in
> warships, just heavily armed "peace ships." :)
> 1701-A was a heavy cruiser (or battlecruiser can't remember (ST6?)
> Excelsior is a battleship. Galaxy is a heavy cruiser.
> No warship. Definat is the 1st. When the need for one went
> away, so did the ship -- until now.
> Refeerence to Defiant being a warship is stated by Gul (something)
> in "Defiant."
The only difference in this warship scheme is that the Defiant has little
or no research facilities. Otherwise, there is very little to differentiate
it from a COnstitution, Excelsior or Nebula. They're all warships.
>>There are the Dreadnaughts of TMP fame, the implied "Military" branch
>>from "The Undiscovered Country" where one of the officers at the meeting
>>ask "Mothball starfleet?" "Well, we'll keep the Exploration Branch".
>
> I'm curious, what ships would you consider to be DREADNAUGHT?
> There is no mention of dreadnaughts in any movie that I can
> remember. They only place where I even saw the word dreadnaught
Star Trek 1: TMP, communications chatter at the subspace relay/monitoring
station. There is a reference for USS Entente to rendezvous with another
ship. The NCC number matches the one in the TOS manual, which predates
the movie. When TMP was filmed (and most of the later movies up to
ST:IV) the TOS manual was used for reference. The USS Entente was a
dreadnaught.
>>So the Warbird theoretically couldn't escape :)
>
> Nope. 50 photons? No way. Plus they had the ability to
> track the warbird. No escape.
They had the ability to track where the singularity last was. If the Warbird
detected the arming of the torpedoes, I'm sure it wouldn't stay in orbit
around DS9.
Now if they launched the Defiant on a little routine patrol, that would give
the ship an oppurtunity to blow up an unshielded Warbird.
Now if the Warbird decloaked, then we'd get to see the Defiant challenge
a Warbird. The only thing the Defiant has to do is close on the Warbird
and keep it's bow towards it. All the Warbird has to do is keep out of
the Defiant's way. The Warbird has an all-around disruptor coverage. I'll
even bet the Warbird has better shielding than the Defiant. Plus, the
Warbird probably has better range with its disruptors too.
Odds are the fight will go to the Warbird.
Stephen Hui
> In fact, the smaller and more maneuverable
> Runabouts were doing pretty well against the Jem H'Dar ships. Remember, size
> isn't always an asset.
I think this statement illustrates why conclusions can't really be drawn
from a fight shown in any one episode. The previous poster was correct in
stating that the Jem H'Dar were giving the Federation ships a beating, and
the runabouts were faring very well. However, one thing I find
aggravating is that the gigantic Odyssey was taking severe damage from
each hit from a Jem H'Dar (sp?) weapon, and yet I clearly remember one of the
runabouts taking a square hit from a Jem H'Dar ship, without any catastropic
effects. How does this work out, when each runabout is tiny in comparison
to even the Galaxy-class ship's warp nacelles? (This is obvious when the
Odyssey and the runabouts emerge from the wormhole; you have to strain to
even *see* the smaller ships.) Maybe someone who taped the episode can
provide more information.
Getting back to the subject, I've said it once, and I'll say it again:
frequency modulation notwithstanding, how can the Defiant possibly have
phasers more powerful than a Galaxy's when the Galaxy class' main phaser
ring is larger than the *entire* Defiant, including crew quarters, warp
engines, etc.? This "30% more powerful than a Galaxy class" figure that
keeps popping up has yet to be referenced to an episode or other canon
source.
Steve
--
Stephen Hui ae...@freenet.carleton.ca
Computer Engineering (613) 592-2627 - home
University of Waterloo (613) 763-7298 - work (BNR Carling)
Marc Gonzales Escuro
In article <3kpp21$7...@crcnis3.unl.edu> m...@csealumni.unl.edu (Michael D. Cornelius) writes:
>
>I feel it is my moral obligation to point out that maneuverability has
>played little or no role in the outcome of any ship to ship battle I
>have seen on Star Trek. Regardless of the firing or target ship's
>agility, weapons nearly always strike home. (The only exception to
>this I can think of is combat between runabout sized ships and
>in this case it is the result of a fixed forward firing arc.)
I also should feel the moral obilgation to tell you that if
the 1701-D's battle section was not maneuverable enough, the
Borg would have been able to immediately lock on and start
cutting them to pieces. Remeber how Riker kept telling Wesley
to keep dodging? Evaive patter Riker Alpha, etc. I can clearly
remember seeing the tractor beam firing into space as the
battle section moved hard right. Though the battle section is
considerably smaller w/o the saucer, it's still a large enough
target to hit.
>fUrther, I think the Defiant is being given too much credit because of
>its "Borg Fighter" label. I don't believe the Defiant was meant to bring
>about the fall of the collective all by itself. It is a small, simple,
>yet powerful design meant for ease of production in order to flesh out
>Starfleet, whose forces were greatly diminished at Wolf 359. It
>incorporates certain elements designed specifically to combat the
>Borg, but this does not make it the be all and end all of battleships.
You are right. The Defiant was not brought on line to destroy
the collective. It was suppossed to provide a suitable defense
against the Borg, one that the combined force of a few dozen
starships at Wolf 359 could not do.
There was only one Defiant class ship built because:
1) It was overpowered.
2) It kept blowing it's engines when tessted at full.
3) The Borg were destroyed.
Now assume that the Borg weren't destroyed, I'm sure that Starfleet,
despite it's failings would have created a couple dozen of these
tiny ships. Because of their small size, they have a high degree
of maneuverability. They have enhanced phasers. They have the
new quantum torpedoes (whatever they are). A squadron of these
Defiants would definitely shut down the Borg at least to the
point that they had to fall back and regenerate.
Defiant was still being tested as Wolf 359 was occurring. Besides,
Commander Shelby said that they could get the fleet back up in a
matter of months. That's a hell of a lot of ships.
Defiant, despite it's awkwardness, is a VERY POWERFUL warship.
>iT has been argued that the Defiant must be able to defeat a Warbird,
>because it could defeat a Jem'Hadar ship, and a Jem'Hadar ship can
>defeat a Galaxy class ship which is comparable to a Warbird. I find
>this argument weak in a couple of areas. First, the Jem'Hadar did not
>truly defeat the Odyssey in combat. Destroying the Odyssey by ramming
OK. The Odyssey, even if the Jem'hadar had not done a suicide
run into the saucer would most likely have been destroyed. Did
you see the condition of the Oddyssey bridge?
Also note that the Jem'Hadar were mainly focusing their attention
on the Odyssey's nacelles. Which would have eventaully caused a
warp core breach and destroyed the Odyssey.
You have to admit that the Jem'Hadar are a fairly powerful force
in the Gamma quadrant. Just the plain and simple fact that
they could humble the most powerful class of ship in the
Federation is feat in itself. You have to admit that they
have a far different technology than is known to the Feds. That
technology was advanced enough to humble a Galaxy class ship.
No matter which way you look at it, Odyssey was defeated. She
was destroyed. Also note that this attack on them was symbollic
of what teh Dominion were willing to do to conquer the Alpha
Quadrant.
>The other point of contention I have with the
>Defiant>Jem'Hadar>Galaxy=Warbird argument is the assertion that Galaxy
>class vessels are equivalent to Warbirds. This is not an "apples to
>apples" comparison. We not only have to account for the differences in
>design resulting from the differences in philosophy and ideology
>between the Federation and the Romulan Empire, but we must also
>recognize the differences in roles between the two types of vessel.
Fine if you want to look at it at that standpoint. Galaxy
class ships have a tactical advantage. Their warp nacelles
are tucked away behind the saucer which makes them less
vulnerable to attack, whereas the warbirds are straight out in
the open, making them VERY vulnerable. Still though, the
warbird in sheer size and power puts 1701-D to shame.
>tHe Galaxy class is a multirole exploration vessel (the Federation is
>a strong advocate of peace, right?). In a pinch, one of those roles
>is combat. The D'deridex class is a multirole warship. It can perform
>exploratory missions as well, but very likely goes in with both
>disruptors and sensors fully powered. Someone has already pointed out
>that the Warbird's weapons are about four times more powerful than
>those of a Galaxy class vessel. (Just as a side note here: If we
>assume, as some have, that the Defiant's phasers are 30% more powerful
>than those of the Enterprise, and we use the numbers given in the
>tactical section of the Tech Manual, we find that the Warbird's weapons
>are still 202% more powerful than the Defiant's.) Because of these
>differences in roles, there are things that a Galaxy class vessel will
>be able to do better than a Warbird and vice versa. These ships are not
>equivalent, and I am arguing that combat is one of the things a Warbird
>will do better than a Galaxy class.
Where did you get the information that the Romulan disruptors
were 4 times more powerful than the galaxy's phaser array?
Also note that the Defiant also has stronger than normal shields
and extra shields, which can make up for the power difference.
Still, you have to look at the size of the Defiant against the
warbird. The Defiant is about 5 times as large as a runabout.
It's dwarfed by a Cardassian warship [Defiant (DS9)], which in
turn is dwarfed by 1701-D, which in turn is 2 times smaller than
a warbird. To pack so much power in a small agile ship is
extremely impressive.
We don't know the full extent of the power of the Defiant nor
do we know the full strength of a warbird. We can only assume
that the warbird is greater or equal to the Galaxy class ships
in firepower. Also, assuming that the Defiant was built to
destroy the most powerful force EVER encounterd by the Feds (Q
not included), then you know that Defiant definitely has
some teeth (with a couple of fangs) built in.
yes, the 3 ships have different roles, but we still have to
fully understand their max firepower. I really doubt that
a warbird has 4 times more powerful weaponry than the Galaxy
class. Is that info in the tech manual?
>Finally, barring all of the above, I submit the following alternate
>ending for the time hopping episode "Miles & Miles Excellent
>Adventure"...
[RIDICULOUS STORY SNIPPED]
Sorry, but that story was the most ridiculous written. One,
Ben Sisko has the common sense NOT to violate a treaty established
between the Romulans and the Federation. Also, why would they
launch Defiant because it would alert the Romulans to their
intentions. It's a lot easier to detect a ship leaving the
docking ring than to detect a weapons lock -- especially when they
weren't looking for a weapons lock.
Also, I do agree with the point that the cloaking device may have
a booby trap installed, but don't you think that Federation and
Romulan engineers would have found it? I mean, the Romulans
are aware of the Federation cloaking device, so why protect
the cloak? Yes, I do know that Romulans are still guarding it
from prying eyes, but still. The technology is old.
Kerry "Kei" Nelson
> Are you stupid or something? A Jem H'Dar ship cannot beat the Big E or
> any Galaxy class ship for that matter. Compare the size and fire power.
> As for galaxy vs. warbird, the outcome will be based on the skill of the
> captains, not firepower.
>
If you will remeber correctly, the Odyssey, one of the afore mention
Galaxy class ships was destroyed by Jem H'Dar ships as the weapons on the
smaller Jem H'Dar ships were able to completely ignore the Odyssey's
shields. I would say that not only does the Jem H'Dar have the better
firepower but they knew better how to use it.
K.E.N. (Just pretend my sig is here.)
Bret Ancowitz
>to even the Galaxy-class ship's warp nacelles?
They wanted to destroy the Odyssey, not the runabouts. The role of the runabouts was to escape and spread the message that the Dominion was "serious." Plus, the Odyssey's mission was fairly suicidal. This was a hostile first contact, and what the Odyssey (and later, Defiant) really did was to gather information and prepare the Federation for later encounters, just like their first encounter with the Borg.
Bret
George Lianeris
In a previous posting, JORDAN SPENSER AARON (jord...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU) writes:
> In article <D5psI...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
> George Lianeris <ai...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>
>>> squadron of only 2 or 3 Jem'Hadar battleships did destroy the USS Odessey, a
>>> Galaxy Class Starship.
>>>
>> Yeah, but rememberthat Odyssey had lost it's shield and the Jem'Hadar
>>were losing so they kamikazeed into the Odyssey...not to mention that
>>their phased poleron beam gave them an unfair advantage...Odyssey was
>>simply not prepaired for that fight.
>
> advantage? We used them in Desert Storm againts Saddam. Should we not
> have because it was unfair to do so. HA! We flew them up his ASS!
>
intercepted and shot down! Not easy, but possible, but there was no
defence for the phased poleron beam. If the Jem'Hadar didn't have it
they'd be dead meat!
George Lianeris
> Getting back to the subject, I've said it once, and I'll say it again:
> frequency modulation notwithstanding, how can the Defiant possibly have
> phasers more powerful than a Galaxy's when the Galaxy class' main phaser
> ring is larger than the *entire* Defiant, including crew quarters, warp
> engines, etc.? This "30% more powerful than a Galaxy class" figure that
> keeps popping up has yet to be referenced to an episode or other canon
> source.
>
only 4 phaser emitters, while a Galaxy class has-like you mentioned, the
ring that is-about 600. One ring alone has 200 emitters-sais so in
the technical manual. It's the fault of the FEderation Plot Distortion
Device-installed on all Galaxy, and some other classes of starships-it
makes sure that everything will go wrong, or something impossible will
happen at the worst possible moment.
Marc Gonzales Escuro
In article <D5vBF...@freenet.carleton.ca> ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Hui) writes:
[SNIP]
>the runabouts were faring very well. However, one thing I find
>aggravating is that the gigantic Odyssey was taking severe damage from
>each hit from a Jem H'Dar (sp?) weapon, and yet I clearly remember one of the
>runabouts taking a square hit from a Jem H'Dar ship, without any catastropic
>effects. How does this work out, when each runabout is tiny in comparison
>to even the Galaxy-class ship's warp nacelles? (This is obvious when the
>Odyssey and the runabouts emerge from the wormhole; you have to strain to
>even *see* the smaller ships.) Maybe someone who taped the episode can
>provide more information.
iYou say that the Runabouts were taking direct hits w/o
catastrophic damage. If I recall correctly, one of the
runabout's Navigationa array was blown off the chassis. If that's
not catastrophic, I have no idea what is. Also, they were
losing power to the engines and were compensating. That's some
pretty heavy damage.
You're right, the ships are incredibly tiny. They're about
2-3 times the size of the largest shuttlecraft and about 5 times
smaller than Defiant.
>Getting back to the subject, I've said it once, and I'll say it again:
>frequency modulation notwithstanding, how can the Defiant possibly have
>phasers more powerful than a Galaxy's when the Galaxy class' main phaser
>ring is larger than the *entire* Defiant, including crew quarters, warp
>engines, etc.? This "30% more powerful than a Galaxy class" figure that
>keeps popping up has yet to be referenced to an episode or other canon
>source.
The episode is "DEFIANT." Major Kira tell Tom Riker that Defiant
has enchanced phaser by rerouting them through the plasma
conduits which results in phaser that are 30% more powerful.
I believe this is a VERY canon source. I did make the reference
earlier, in other posts.
Marc Gonzales Escuro
But the Odyssey did not know what to expect. The Federation sent
in it's most powerful class ship, and saw it get smacked around
by some pint-sized ships of the Dominion.
The Odyssey captain was fairly confident that they would be able to
find Sisko and Jake and Quark. Boy was he wrong.
Yeah, it did provide information to the Federation, too bad they
didn't survive to tell the Feds personally.
The RUnabouts were crippled -- all except one. THat one, manned by
bashir and Kira, was busy trying to prevent the Jem'Hadar's
kamikazee run.
Marc Gonzales Escuro
>One of the big problems is that they were when they knew the frequencies
>(as the Borg have proved time and again). Plus, the shields obviousy
>didn't cover the necessary frequencies the Jem'Hedar used for attacking.
>That's always the problem with first encounters. The Odyssey captain
>just couldn't compensate quick enough.
That's bull. The Odyssey's main problem was that their shields
were useless against the phased-polaron bean used by the Jem'Hadar.
It's not a problem of whether the shield frequencies weren't rotated
fast enough or not.
Shields more likely than not were either totally useless or didn't
cover the frequencies.
>Not so. The Defiant is considered an escort ship,overpowered for its size and
>packing alot of specialized weaponry to deal with the Borg problem.
>That doesn't make it more powerful overall than a Galaxy
>class because this time, they were prepared for Jem'Hedar weaponry.
As I have just posted, the DEFIANT has phsers that are more than
DOUBLE the power of standard phasers. This means that these
phasers are DEFINITELY more powerful than those found on the 1701-D
or any other galaxy class ship.
Yes, it's an escort ship. Yes it's overpowered. BUT IT HAS
TEETH!!!
>It would be silly to think that only the Defiant was built to destroy the
>Borg. I'm sure there were various other designs built also. Some more
>powerful, some less. And who knows, maybe certain parts of the
>Intrepid class incorporated the technology.
Actually, I have just rewatched "SEARCH PT 1." It was stated that
Defiant was going to be a new class of starshiip, built to fight
specifically, the BORG. We are not sure that there were any other
designs on the table.
I'm pretty sure Intrepid class incorporates the technology because
DEFIANT is breaking the warp speed limitation barrier.
Francois Piche
as possible by their own ships. Let's use the analogy of the US Submarine
fleets. The US Navy tries to make their submarines so quiet that they
are difficult to detect even by their own submarines.
Chung, Peter W.
>
>In article <20MAR199...@jane.uh.edu> st...@jane.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>>
>>As far as the phasers being underpowered, that's not the case everytime.
>>One of the big problems is that they were when they knew the frequencies
>>(as the Borg have proved time and again). Plus, the shields obviousy
>>didn't cover the necessary frequencies the Jem'Hedar used for attacking.
>>That's always the problem with first encounters. The Odyssey captain
>>just couldn't compensate quick enough.
>
> That's bull. The Odyssey's main problem was that their shields
> were useless against the phased-polaron bean used by the Jem'Hadar.
> It's not a problem of whether the shield frequencies weren't rotated
> fast enough or not.
> Shields more likely than not were either totally useless or didn't
> cover the frequencies.
Umm. Not to seem confused. But didn't I say that the shields weren't
configured to defend against the Jem'Hedar? Actually, it is important
to know if the shield frequencies were rotated fast enough. What if
the Jem'Hedar could match their weapon frequencies to the shields quick
enough? There are quite a number variables involved in that scene
that the writers never mention.
>
>>Not so. The Defiant is considered an escort ship,overpowered for its size and
>>packing alot of specialized weaponry to deal with the Borg problem.
>>That doesn't make it more powerful overall than a Galaxy
>>class because this time, they were prepared for Jem'Hedar weaponry.
>
> As I have just posted, the DEFIANT has phsers that are more than
> DOUBLE the power of standard phasers. This means that these
> phasers are DEFINITELY more powerful than those found on the 1701-D
> or any other galaxy class ship.
> Yes, it's an escort ship. Yes it's overpowered. BUT IT HAS
I've also followed up that posting. Again, I point to the problem that
even if they said double the power of phaser output, but relative to
what?
> TEETH!!!
For an escort ship, not a cruiser.
The bad thing is that in Star Trek, any ship with alot of weaponry packed
on it is unusually vulnerable to critical hits because a higher percentage
volume of the ship is ordnance. I refer to "Journey to Babel", "Reunification
part I", "The Search Part 1". Of course their is the legendary "power
coupling" on Galaxy-class ships, but that's something else.
In a standup fight, a Warbird has the advantage of being a
really powerful warship (which it is afterall) with the ability to move
quickly (for a ship that size, watch "Defector", "Tin Man"). The only
advantage the Defiant has are it's novel, but close-range weaponry and
it's maneuverability.
By the time the Defiant could get a firing solution
the Warbird would have got *alot* of disruptor fire off. And more than
likely crippled or severely degraded the Defiant's ability to fight.
Timo S Saloniemi
>Actually, the Jem H'Dar were able to destroy a Galaxy class starship in last
>year's season finale. But, the Jem H'Dar ship did kamikaze into the ship, so
>there was very little chance for it to survive.
>
>Besides that, the Jem H'Dar were kicking everyone's butts, especially the
>Galaxy class ship. The weapons the Jem H'Dar ships used apparantly penatrated
>the shields on the Federation ships as if they were not there. So, we have an
>enormous, not highly maneuverable, Galaxy class ship with basicly no shielding.
To put the record straight, let's emphasize that the Odyssey had *lowered*
its shields at the time of the JH suicide run, to give more power to
weapons. I doubt ramming would have been possible had the Odyssey had even
minimal shields up. Trek quite consistently tells that mere matter is easily
deflected by shields.
The only time ramming was considered an option in TNG was when Riker contem-
plated a suicide attack against the Borg in BOBW. But that was against the
Borg shields, which could later be penetrated by a standard shuttlecraft.
Evidently the Borg do not consider ship shielding very relevant.
Of superships and superweapons: I recall that the Borg cutting beam comple-
tely ignored Ent-D, and later Saratoga et al., shields. That weapon *could*
be beaten by maneuvering hard, until the Borg caught Ent-D in their tractor
beam. On the other hand, hard maneuvering has never caused a Galaxy-class
ship to miss its target. The hit record of Odyssey phasers vs. JH ships was
nearly 100%. Too bad the phasers did no damage...
Timo Saloniemi/tsal...@vipunen.hut.fi/Helsinki University of Tech.
.sigless and proud of it!
Stephan A. Manchir
>From: st...@rosie.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.)
>Subject: Re: Defiant vs. Warbird (was Re: Romulan Cloaking device)
>In article <3l5mda$j...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, bas...@cats.ucsc.edu (Marc Gonzales Escuro) writes...
>>
>>In article <20MAR199...@jane.uh.edu> st...@jane.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>>>
>>>As far as the phasers being underpowered, that's not the case everytime.
>>>One of the big problems is that they were when they knew the frequencies
>>>(as the Borg have proved time and again). Plus, the shields obviousy
>>>didn't cover the necessary frequencies the Jem'Hedar used for attacking.
>>>That's always the problem with first encounters. The Odyssey captain
>>>just couldn't compensate quick enough.
>>
>> That's bull. The Odyssey's main problem was that their shields
>> were useless against the phased-polaron bean used by the Jem'Hadar.
>> It's not a problem of whether the shield frequencies weren't rotated
>> fast enough or not.
>> Shields more likely than not were either totally useless or didn't
>> cover the frequencies.
>Umm. Not to seem confused. But didn't I say that the shields weren't
>configured to defend against the Jem'Hedar? Actually, it is important
>to know if the shield frequencies were rotated fast enough. What if
>the Jem'Hedar could match their weapon frequencies to the shields quick
>enough? There are quite a number variables involved in that scene
>that the writers never mention.
They attempt to rotate the frequencies, and fail. At that point they
transfer ALL of the shield power to the weapons. At least,
that's how I remember it.
>>
>>>Not so. The Defiant is considered an escort ship,overpowered for its size and
>>>packing alot of specialized weaponry to deal with the Borg problem.
>>>That doesn't make it more powerful overall than a Galaxy
>>>class because this time, they were prepared for Jem'Hedar weaponry.
>>
>> As I have just posted, the DEFIANT has phsers that are more than
>> DOUBLE the power of standard phasers. This means that these
>> phasers are DEFINITELY more powerful than those found on the 1701-D
>> or any other galaxy class ship.
>> Yes, it's an escort ship. Yes it's overpowered. BUT IT HAS
>I've also followed up that posting. Again, I point to the problem that
>even if they said double the power of phaser output, but relative to
>what?
I believe that it was in comparison to the maximum output of a galaxy class
vessel. But I could be wrong.
-
-Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephan A. Manchir sa...@po.cwru.edu; D.MA...@Genie.geis.com
I should have something witty or funny here, but no one understood the last one,
so I figured, what's the point, really? I don't know. Oh, well.
WWW server: http://b61548.Student.CWRU.Edu
Marc Gonzales Escuro
In article <3l9knh$4...@crcnis3.unl.edu> m...@csealumni.unl.edu (Michael D. Cornelius) writes:
>
>Fair enough. But you may recall that this was not really a duel to the
>death between the Enterprise and the Borg cube. The Enterprise (both
>sections) was creating a diversion to allow Data and Worf to get aboard
>and retrieve Picard. The Enterprise was clearly losing. Riker,
>remember, ordered a collision course at the end. Fortunately, Data and
>Picard were able to find a solution to the problem before it was
>executed.
Agreed. Both parts of the Enterprises were clearly losing.
Saucer was immobile. I always thought that it was the saucer's
part to do the diversion with the anti-matter spread. Oh well.
I'm currently watching the episode and I'm not to that part yet.
>I think we are coming at the same point from different angles here. My
>main point was that the Defiant, as a single ship, is not the force
>Starfleet had in mind to deflect a Borg attack. The Defiant, by itself,
>is not sufficient to engage a single Borg cube. In order to defeat a
>Borg cube, the cube must be obliterated so it cannot regenerate and so
>it cannot adapt to the attack. One Defiant class ship was able to
>disable, but not destroy utterly, a Cardassian cruiser which was much
>smaller than the Borg ship. If the Cardassian had been a Borg ship, it
>would have fallen back, regrouped, regenerated, and come back probably
>able to withstand another similar attack. So, although the Defiant
>carries novel technologies (or at least novel applications of old
>technologies), I think it is going too far to say, "Well, the Defiant
>was designed to fight the Borg, therefore it could take out anything
>in known space." As Marc said, a squadron of Defiants could give the
>Borg a run for their money, but not just one.
DEFIANT was the first of a new breed of starship. This was stated
by Sisko in "Search Pt1." If DEFIANT was successful, there would
have literally been an entire fleet of them built.
Well, DEFIANT is/was designed to fight the Borg. That has now been
firmly established. I would probably say that it could probably
handle it's own against almost anything in space. It is also
regarded as one of the most powerful warships in the quadrant. You
can refer to the DS9 episode, "Defiant" for the direct quote stated
by Gul Dukat.
>If they were winning so handily, why was a suicide run necessary? If
>they were winning, it was a stupid thing to do.
As said in "The Jem'Hadar," the Hem'Hadar are showing us that they
are willing to do anything.
>Either they were losing, and they ended the battle using any means
>necessary, or they were winning and the wasted an entire ship and crew
>for the hell of it. Dedicated on the one hand, or stupid on the other
>-- I don't know. To me, the Jem'hadar seem a greater threat of they if
>they can be defeated in a "fair fight" but are willing to go to any
>lengths to achieve their goals. Yes, the Jem'hadar are a force to
>reckon with, and yes, the Defiant took out one of their ships. However,
>if one of the Jem'hadar ships and chosen to ram the Defiant, the Defiant
>would have blown up, just like the Odyssey. They didn't have to ram her
>because they were winning.
Actually, if you looked closely enough at the kamikazee attack on
the Odyssey, the ship was still intact. The fact that the Jem'Hadar
ship ricochetted off the main deflector dish and into the
starboard nacelle was why the Odyssey blew up. Otherwise,
the saucer would have been able to be detached and most of the
crew saved.
True, the J'H didn't fight fair, but you have to agree that before the
suicide run, they were winning.
>Um. I'm not sure I understand your point. If Starfleet wants to
>protect the engines of its starships by using the crew as a human
>shield, I'm sure the Romulans don't mind. All I was trying to say is
>that the Warbird is a warship, a Galaxy class ship is not. The
>Enterprise *can* fight if need be (just like a Warbird can send a
>geological survey team to the surface of a planet, or map spaceborne
>gaseous anomalies), but that is not it's main role.
I think it is stated in the Tech Manual somewhere that many design
flaws of previous Starfleet ships were corrected in GAlaxy class.
One of them being the nacelles. If you'll notice the nacelles
protrude above the saucer section on 1701-A and not on 1701-D.
>Well, I was using numbers I saw tossed around in other posts. Actually,
>what the tech manual (section 11.1) says is that the Type X phasers,
>like those carried by the Enterprise, have a maximum output of 5.1
>megawatts *per emitter*. The saucer section dorsal array has 200 emitter
>segments. Notice that we have never seen more than one emitter segment
>fire at a time. This means that either each array is limited to 5.1 MW
>output, or the output of multiple emitter segments can be directed
>through a single segment. Let's give Federation engineers the benefit
>of the doubt and assume the latter. Two hundred emitters at 5.1 MW
>each gives a total output of 1.02 GW for the saucer section dorsal
>phaser array. Note that it is the largest array, and will therefore
>have the most emitters and greatest total output.
GREAT!! Now notice that Defiant has a phaser array that has double
the power of Galaxy class phasers because of the rerouting through
the main plasma conduits.
So approximate max output of the DEfinat's phasers are 10.2 megawatts.
I don't know how many emitters the Defiant has.
>Later, in section 11.2, several excerpts from the Starfleet spacecraft
>maneuver database are given, illustrating maneuvers of a Galaxy class
>vessel using Type X phasers against a variety of Threats in different
>situations. In the scenario involving a Warbird, the Warbird is
>indicated to be discharging 20 GW phaser pulses.
I do recall this. (I'm too lazy to go upstairs and grab my manual.)
Maybe a mistake? I don't know. Beside Romulans don't have phasers.
That's not the point though.
>By these figures, the estimate that Romulan weapons are four times more
>powerful than those of the Enterprise are conservative at best. If the
>Enterprise can discharge the total output of its largest phaser array at
>once, the Romulan weapons are still more than 19 times (!) more
>powerful.
Point taken, but seriously though. Is that correct? I know the
info comes from the tech manual, but with that kind of weaponry,
the Romulans could have easily defeatd the Borg when they were
attacked. Romulans aren't stupid. They probably would have discovered
that the Borg adapt to frequencies and altered their shileds and
disruptors accordingly.
Marc Gonzales Escuro
In article <3l8bnk$r...@nntp.hut.fi> tsal...@vipunen.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) writes:
>The only time ramming was considered an option in TNG was when Riker contem-
>plated a suicide attack against the Borg in BOBW. But that was against the
>Borg shields, which could later be penetrated by a standard shuttlecraft.
>Evidently the Borg do not consider ship shielding very relevant.
Sorry for being nitpicky, but the shuttlecraft penetrated the shields
of the Borg before Riker even considered ramming 1701-D into the
cube.
>Of superships and superweapons: I recall that the Borg cutting beam comple-
>tely ignored Ent-D, and later Saratoga et al., shields. That weapon *could*
>be beaten by maneuvering hard, until the Borg caught Ent-D in their tractor
>beam. On the other hand, hard maneuvering has never caused a Galaxy-class
>ship to miss its target. The hit record of Odyssey phasers vs. JH ships was
>nearly 100%. Too bad the phasers did no damage...
Wrong on that count. the main purpose of the Borg tractor beam is
to drain the power of the shields. Remeber Worf does a count down
on shield power. That's why Geordi devised the rotation of shield
nutation (frequencies). Once shields were DOWN, the cutting beam
can be used to carve up the ships.
You are right, hard maneuvering can be used to avoid the tractor
beam as shown by Riker in the battle section of 1701-D (BOBW).
Phaser power on the Odyssey was to low to destroy the Jem'Hadar
ships. Phaser power on Defiant is double that power, so it's
easier to destroy the Jem'Hadar.
Kevin Armstrong
>From: bas...@cats.ucsc.edu (Marc Gonzales Escuro)
>Subject: Re: Defiant vs. Warbird (was Re: Romulan Cloaking device)
> The episode is "DEFIANT." Major Kira tell Tom Riker that Defiant
> has enchanced phaser by rerouting them through the plasma
> conduits which results in phaser that are 30% more powerful.
> I believe this is a VERY canon source. I did make the reference
> earlier, in other posts.
Yeah, the phaser are 30% more powerful than before, but compared to what? Are
you telling us that little ol' Defiant, if it had been unmodified (ie just a
run of the mill escort), would have carried the same size phasers as the Big
E does. I don't think so. I think the Big E's phasers would have to be more
than 30% bigger than an escort's. Therefore, I would definatly say that a
Galaxy class ship's is still more powerful than Defiant in a conventional
sence. However, the Defiant's phasers are different in that they are built to
handle higher tech foes. Heres a modern day example. A bomber could be
assigned to destroy a bridge. It could drop 10 2000lbs dumb bombs but would
not be guarenteed a single hit on the bridge. At the same time, a small
attack plane could drop 1 500lbs laser guided bomb and take out the whole
bridge with that one hit. Now, I'm not saying that the Big E is any less
precise with it's shootin, esp. with Worf at weapons. What I am saying, is
that the Defiant is better suited to fight something like the Jem Hadar than
the Big E would be. Against something like a warbird, the Big E's phasers
would be just as good as Defiant's because Romulan sheilds are not so far
ahead of Federation phasers as Jem Hadar shields are against normal Federation
phasers.
Stuart A. Bronstein
: Tom riker said the defiant had double the phaser power, and
: Kira said it had 30% more engine power. Also, in the Star Trek
: Encyclopedia under D'deridex class warbird, it sais that
: romulan warbirds have more firepower than a galagy class ship.
Marc Gonzales Escuro
In article <S1095706.6...@cedarville.edu> S109...@cedarville.edu (Kevin Armstrong ) writes:
>
>Yeah, the phaser are 30% more powerful than before, but compared to what? Are
>you telling us that little ol' Defiant, if it had been unmodified (ie just a
>run of the mill escort), would have carried the same size phasers as the Big
>E does. I don't think so. I think the Big E's phasers would have to be more
>than 30% bigger than an escort's. Therefore, I would definatly say that a
>Galaxy class ship's is still more powerful than Defiant in a conventional
>sence.
Sorry, I had mis-posted that information. Defiant's phasers are more
than double the power of standard phasers. Defiant's ENGINES are 30%
more efficient..
I believe that Defiant's phaser array is comparable to those on Galaxy
class ships, because it is a warship. THough it is classified as an
escort class, it IS as WARSHIP. Now, when the phasers are rerouted
through the plasma conduits, it more than double their power.
Therefore, phaser power is more that those founf on 1701-D.
The Great Cornholio
>> Fine if you want to look at it at that standpoint. Galaxy
>> class ships have a tactical advantage. Their warp nacelles
>> are tucked away behind the saucer which makes them less
>> vulnerable to attack, whereas the warbirds are straight out in
>> the open, making them VERY vulnerable. Still though, the
>> warbird in sheer size and power puts 1701-D to shame.
>
> protect the engines of its starships by using the crew as a human
> shield, I'm sure the Romulans don't mind. All I was trying to say is
> that the Warbird is a warship, a Galaxy class ship is not. The
> Enterprise *can* fight if need be (just like a Warbird can send a
> geological survey team to the surface of a planet, or map spaceborne
> gaseous anomalies), but that is not it's main role.
>
Well, if I may be allowed to interupt what seems to be a two-person
disscussion, I don't think it makes a bit of difference where you target
a ship. As long as the shields are up, you won't be able to do that much
damage, or shouldn't anyway. If the shields are down, the ship is gone anyway,
look at Generations.
>
>> I really doubt that
>> a warbird has 4 times more powerful weaponry than the Galaxy
>> class. Is that info in the tech manual?
>
> Well, I was using numbers I saw tossed around in other posts. Actually,
> what the tech manual (section 11.1) says is that the Type X phasers,
> like those carried by the Enterprise, have a maximum output of 5.1
> megawatts *per emitter*. The saucer section dorsal array has 200 emitter
> segments. Notice that we have never seen more than one emitter segment
> fire at a time. This means that either each array is limited to 5.1 MW
> output, or the output of multiple emitter segments can be directed
> through a single segment. Let's give Federation engineers the benefit
> of the doubt and assume the latter. Two hundred emitters at 5.1 MW
> each gives a total output of 1.02 GW for the saucer section dorsal
> phaser array. Note that it is the largest array, and will therefore
> have the most emitters and greatest total output.
>
> Later, in section 11.2, several excerpts from the Starfleet spacecraft
> maneuver database are given, illustrating maneuvers of a Galaxy class
> vessel using Type X phasers against a variety of Threats in different
> situations. In the scenario involving a Warbird, the Warbird is
> indicated to be discharging 20 GW phaser pulses.
>
> By these figures, the estimate that Romulan weapons are four times more
> powerful than those of the Enterprise are conservative at best. If the
> Enterprise can discharge the total output of its largest phaser array at
> once, the Romulan weapons are still more than 19 times (!) more
> powerful.
Well, I don't want to sound nit-picky, but the Tech Manual does say phaser
*pulses* from the Romulan Warbird. If a warbird fired a pulse that was say 10
meters long, and it was 20 GW, it wouldn't be the same as a 20 GW beam of a
light second. Remember the Enterprise fires in pulses and beams, depending on
the shields of the Threat. So a 20 GW pulse of very short duration could very
well be inferior to a 1 GW beam of 4 seconds. Also, just a side thing, the
ST:TNG Tech Journal states that a Galaxy is roughly equal to a Warbird.
--
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Burt "Beavis" Ward Computer Science student at Marshall University |
|--------------------<It's a sick world, I'm a happy guy>---------------------|
| Wa...@muvms6.mu.wvnet.edu | |
| Wa...@marshall.edu | Klingon rules of Acquisition : |
| ROAD...@Delphi.com | 1.) Shoot it |
| Jolan Tru my Vulcan ass! | 2.) Pick it up, eat if applicable |
\--.SIG Heil!-----------------------------------------------------.SIG Heil!--/
Stuart A. Bronstein
phaser emitter segement can fire 5.1 MW, and a large phaser bank has 200
emitter segements, that's 1.02 GW. as said in the startrek tecnical
manual, a romulan warbird has 20 GW disruptors. Also, in the startrek
encyclopedia under D'deridex class warbird, it sais they have more
firepower, but a slightly lower sustanable warp speed. Then enterprise can
fire maybe 3 phaser banks at a time, plus 1 photon torpedo at a time.
Well 10 if you have a full spread set up. Anyway, the defiant has double
the phaser power(30% more engine power), and it can fire 4 banks at a time.
Plus, it can fire 2 Quantom torpedos at a time. That would mean that the
warbird would have slightly more firepower, but in Startrek jugement rites,
it sais disruptors are less efficiant in energy usage. Also, in timescape,
2 hits brang the shields down to 27%, and blasted a hole in the enterprise.
It took the 2 klingon battlecrusers 15-20 hits before the enterprises
shields failed. Hope this helps.
Stuart A. Bronstein
any starship I've ever seen(Including runabouts and shuttles) You should
see "The pegasus"