Macross(aka SDF-1) vs Enterprise-D: a new debate.
James Strocel
Mike Yoshida <myos...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>Peter Choi wrote:
>>
>> Y'ello! I'm Peter "needs therapy" Choi who posted Zentraedy vs
>> Starfleet first! I'll give you a new debate, Macross(aka SDF-1) versus
>> Enterprise-D!
>>
>> Hmmm, Bruno Global vs Jean Luc Pecard....
>The Macross would KILL the Enterprise in a few shots... That main
>cannon on the Macross would just shred the hull of the Enterprise!
Hmmmm, interesting, interesting. Meanwhile let's cross-post to the
Trekkie corner.
Kenji (in exile)
jstr...@uniserve.com (James Strocel) wrote:
That way we can have a big battle over what would be a big battle?
The Feds might be able to reconfigure the deflectors to handle the
Macross' cannon, after they lose a few ships. The Macross would lose
out big on the mobility portion, and I do believe the feds have
fighters to counter the Valkyries.
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* Come visit my page for better nutrition *
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email: Yot...@oasis.novia.net o_O
Peter Choi
In <31e81db...@news.novia.net> Yot...@oasis.novia.net (Kenji (in
Yeah, right. I saw a few starfighters in a TNG episode. (but I don't
remember what it is...)
WinterMute
In article <4s99dm$h...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Saturn defense post and they get summarily obliterated. No match for a
Valkyrie, I'm pretty sure.
Kenji (in exile)
dark...@u.washington.edu (B. Hwang) wrote:
>Just figured I'd add in a couple points.
>
>About the main gun...
>1) Sure the Enterprise can dodge around (although I'd always wondered what
> good that did at the couple thousand km range vs. lightspeed weapons.)
> But the SDF-1 should have a fairly easy time targeting it. Say the
> Enterprise moved behind the SDF-1. No problemo, simply flip the ship
> around. To fire the main gun, one only needs to be pointed in the right
> direction, not headed in the right direction as well. Besides, I'm
> not too sure the Enterprise can clear the main gun's area of effect in
> time to dodge a shot. If they don't... well.. *KA-BOOM!*
>
>The shields...
>2) Actually for me the question isn't how much damage the shields can take,
> (oops, I mean DO...) it's how much they can take. All they do is have
> to hold on long enough for the SDF-1 to line up the aforementioned main gun.
>
>The fighters...
>3) This ahs been bugging me for a looong time... What exactly do the fighters
> carry that makes all the big ships worry about them? Okay if they carry
> nukes, I can see it. But somehow I think the Enterprise-D's shields'll
> laugh at just about anything that a fighter could carry. I could be
> wrong about this, but somehow I think the fighters will be replay of
> ID4... without a virus to take down the shields.
>
>Anyways, just my cent or two... - Peter
Hmm... Having played both Star Trek wargames, the only thing I'd worry
about from the Macross would be that main gun... but I think the E-D
is very manueverable at close range under impluse power to avoid it
for a while...
Couple of scenarios (my opinion):
E-D: What's that? Some primitive armored ship, by appearances... looks
like two old-style earth sea vessels attached to it. Doesn't appear
to have the capacity for shields...
Mac: What's going on? What's that goofy looking ship doing here? Why's
the main cannon powering up?
E-D: Energy concentration in those two huge prongy thingies, sir. Raise
shields...
#1: They sit there confused until the main cannon goes off.
E-D: We've been hit! Shields at 15% Holy cow! Evasive action. Dodge,
dodge, hey their lasers, missiles, and fighters just bounces off what
remains of our shields... and that big gun seems to take a while...
#1a: E-D: Sir we've located the enemy bridge crew. Lock on transporters.
The Mac's crew find themselves floating thru space.
#1b: After half an hour, E-D slices thru Mac's thick slabs of armor. The
Mac attempted to change, but got locked into postion by a photon
torpedo. Mac is too massive for it's drives to spin the gun towards
the E-D.
#1c: E-D decides to leave instead of taking revenge, or Mac plays it safe
and folds. How long does that folding take?
#2: The E-D takes evasive action before they get hit. See scenarios above.
#3: Maybe the shield can't handle the gun...
#3a: The E-D is destroyed. Oops.
#3b: The Saucer is destroyed, the lower section is still able to fight. See
scenario #1. If lower section has no shields, maybe #1a. If lower section
can't fight, see #3a.
Main points:
-Folding or using the main gun takesmore time than powering up shields,
phasers, torpedoes, or impulse power.
-Only the Borg had a weapon that cut thru the E-D's shields, I believe it
was due to a special varying frequency. The main gun just relies on immense
power, while it may take out a Constitution class, probably won't hurt the
Galaxy class.
-The Macross cant' maneuver as well as the E-D. Watch the shows, guys.
-Feds and Klingons don't stand in front of each other and shoot at close
ranges, they do quite a bit of dog fighting in hopes of shaking the weapon
locks, etc. The Mac wouldn't be even able to get close enough to a crochety
Romulan Warbird to punch it or use it's force field on it.
-The E-D can strafe with the phasers. Cute anime babes can't spin the roller
ball in the right direction fast enough.
-Photon torps are explosive, and I do believe, cover more area than Mac's
shields can cover. Mac under full shields? They can't shoot, E-D can, and
either can eventually shoot thru the shield or wait for the Mac to run out
of juice.
Sir Alby
Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>
> Main points:
> -Folding or using the main gun takesmore time than powering up shields,
> phasers, torpedoes, or impulse power.
The main guns, yes, But folding, probably not. You also forget about the SDF1's
barrier system, which makes it pretty much invulnerable. And if you do breach it,
it blows up and destroys everything nearby.
> -Only the Borg had a weapon that cut thru the E-D's shields, I believe it
> was due to a special varying frequency. The main gun just relies on immense
> power, while it may take out a Constitution class, probably won't hurt the
> Galaxy class.
Nothing in the Star Trek universe has the main gun's powers. If you think about
how few hits from a Klingon cruisers phasers to drop the Enterprise's shields,
you'd realize the main gun of the SDF1 will evaporate the Enterprise.
> -The Macross cant' maneuver as well as the E-D. Watch the shows, guys.
But it does have guns in every direction. It doesn't need to maneuver. Even if it
can't bring the main guns to bear, all the other guns and warheads will damage the
Enterprise.
> -Feds and Klingons don't stand in front of each other and shoot at close
> ranges, they do quite a bit of dog fighting in hopes of shaking the weapon
> locks, etc. The Mac wouldn't be even able to get close enough to a crochety
> Romulan Warbird to punch it or use it's force field on it.
Can someone verify how slow the SDF1 really is. It seems to make it from Pluto to
Earth in pretty good time without having to fold. How long would it take the
Enterprise to get from Pluto the Earth on impulse power?
> -The E-D can strafe with the phasers. Cute anime babes can't spin the roller
> ball in the right direction fast enough.
> -Photon torps are explosive, and I do believe, cover more area than Mac's
> shields can cover. Mac under full shields? They can't shoot, E-D can, and
> either can eventually shoot thru the shield or wait for the Mac to run out
> of juice.
How 'bout them beefed up Veritechs carrying reflex warheads? A few hundred of
those will make toast of the Enterprise.
--
--------------------------
Sir Alby
al...@slip.net
My favorite anime: KOR
My favorite anime song: Eternal Winds from Gundam-F91
My favorite girlfriend: I only have one. You know who you are.
Ming Yau So
Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon on
board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When Minmay's
song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be sooooooooo
shock to here something sings in a language besides English and Klingon,
the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just destroyed)
by the Macross main gun !!!
--
==============================================================================
Ming Yau So Internet: min...@netcom.com
AOL: Ming So
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Peter Choi
In <mingsoDu...@netcom.com> min...@netcom.com (Ming Yau So)
writes:
>Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon
on
>board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When
Minmay's
>song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be
sooooooooo
>shock to here something sings in a language besides English and
Klingon,
>the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just
destroyed)
>by the Macross main gun !!!
Well, we have Data with a violin, Riker with a trombone, Starfleet
ochestra, and Worf who can sing Klingon opera!
Sir Alby
I'm sorry guys. All this time I'd been rooting for the Macross. But with
those four playing music together. They could wipe out the entire galaxy:)
Sir Alby
Ratboy wrote:
>
> On the topic of shields, I am surprised that people don't realize the
> Enterprise has a much better shield then the SDF-1. From looking at
> episodes of both, many times you see missile launchers on the SDF-1 blow
> up from enemy attack. Who can forget the time Miria broke into the
> SDF-1?? However, never once do you seen the surface of the enterprise
> obliterated before the shields fail. In order for the Enterprise hull to
> be breached, the shields have to be. Basically, the Macross shields are
> general for beam weapons, not for projectile weapons while the
> Enterprise's shields are shields for all type of weapons. Official Trek
> technology states that the shields of the Enterprise is what keeps
> micro-objects off the Enterprise when traveling FTL.
>
If you believe that the Enterprise shields are capable of stopping FTL objects
colliding with it, then the Enterprise's shield theoretically would be
indestructible. Yet, in many episodes, we see several phaser hits easily bringing
down the shields. There is a contradiction here. How strong the enterprise's
shields are depends on which you believe. I personally place my bets on the shields
while in combat, which are much more realistic. And much weaker than you think it
is.
> > > -The Macross cant' maneuver as well as the E-D. Watch the shows, guys.
> >
> > But it does have guns in every direction. It doesn't need to maneuver. Even if it
> > can't bring the main guns to bear, all the other guns and warheads will damage the
> > Enterprise.
> >
>
> Macross has guns in every direction, but the Enterprise also has
> weapons covering everypoint of the ship. The phasers can cover the
> entire ship pretty well, and there are forward and aft torpedo
> launchers. While the Macross missile launchers just fires almost
> indiscrimately in all directions, the Enterprise Torpedos are fired in
> optimal spread for maximum damage.
>
I don't think you give Macross targeting crews enough credit. The reason they fired
in every direction was because there were millions of ships surrounding them. I
merely point out that the Macross does not need to maneuver. It has plenty of guns
in every direction.
And from looking at Star Trek six, when the old Enterprise gets hit by a photon torp,
assuming that photon torpedo technology wasn't too much advanced in NG, they're not
that powerful. If they were, then a single shot would have destroyed the unshielded
enterprise.
>
> Now the rest of my comments. =P As have already been stated, a small
> piece of rock traveling at near light speed has about the same amount of
> explosive power as the medium size nuclear warhead. But in just normal
If you believe this, why does the enterprise get damaged by phasers and photon torps?
> warp travel the Enterprise is already shielded from such projectiles. So
> no matter how many missiles are fired at the Enterprise, I doubt they
> would do much damage. If you take the terminology literally, the
> Valkeries fire lasers. In one episode of TNG, Enterprise encountered an
Both, actually.
> inferior civilization that was firing lasers at the Enterprise. Needless
> to say the bridge crew was astounded at such an ineffectual weapon. So
> already as long as the Enterprise crew don't try to fight the Valkeries
> with the shuttles, they are fine. Only if we assume the missiles does as
> much damage as even a quarter of a photon torpedo would the valkeries
> pose a potential problem.
>
What about thousands of missiles doing a .1 the damage of a photon torp? That would
still be like getting hit by 10-20 photon torpedos. I do not think the Enterprises
shields can handle that. I think we have sufficient evidence that the veritechs
alone could fire that many, never mind how many the Macross could fire. The
Enterprise is vapor at that point.
> On to the Macross and the Enterprise themselves. Since I estimate the
> Macross to be roughly 2x the size of the Enterprise, that would place the
> Macross a little larger then a Romulan Warbird. A few people mentioned
> the Daedulus (sp?) manuever. You have to take into account however, of
The Daedulus maneuver is ludicrous anyways. It should never be able to hit Zentradi
ships either. Given that the Macross will fight with Macross physics and the
Enterprise with Star Trek physics, we must say that the Macross will somehow pull of
the Daedalus maneuver.
> the transformation time it takes. I also believe that the Macross is
> EXTREMELY vulnerable during the transformation. That aside, whether or
> not the Daedulus can penetrate or smash the Enteriprise is up to you.
> Note however, that the Enterprise also has a manuever of it's own: the
> Picard Manuever. If you don't know what this is, it's basically warping
> at close range to produce double images of the ship - at which time the
> real ship which is closer to the target begans bombardment of target with
> all available weapon. This manuever would be VERY effective against the
> SDF-1. For one thing, as soon as the Enterprise warps, all surrounding
> Valkeries would be destroyed because of the bending of spacetime. At
> close range, the main cannon would be useless, and the Enterprise can
> thus pass all defenses and be close enough to destroy the bridge.
>
Or be punched by the Daedalus.
> On to weapons. Contrary to popular belief, the Photon Torpedos are not
> FTL as in they travel faster then the speed of light during an attack.
> Merely that they CAN be launched when the ship is itself FTL. Phasers
> would not work when traveling at warp speed because phasers itself is
> traveling on a beam of light. Therefore the phasers can still be fired
> during warp, but the damage would be about as bad as a sunburn. The
> photon torpedo however, because it is basically a projectile weapon, can
> survive the stress of warp, and still pack a punch. From the Tech
> Manual, the fastest speed of a photon fired from rest is a little over
> Warp 1. How they explain the photon still detonating at the target I'd
> forgotten. Assuming that the SDF-1 is made from material as strong as
> the Enterprise hull, it will still take a heavy beating from each
Much stronger. The Enterprise, without shields, can't take much punishment. The
Macross, as we have seen time and time again, is nearly indestructible. It crash
lands onto Macross island with nary a scratch. The Enterprise crash lands and it's a
smoking pile of reckage. The Enterprise is very high tech. A little damage here, a
little damage there, and the warp core goes kaboom! The Macross, if you believe in
Mac II (which I don't, BTW), is so tough even it's command tower is still capable of
flying after the rest of it is destroyed.
> Photon. If we take it that photons can travel long distances, it would
How much distance can the main guns fire? I assume an energy weapon like that can
travel much farther than photon torps.
> be the perfect offense against the main cannon of SDF-1, which we are
> taking as the ultimate weapon. Take the following scenerio: Enterprise
> is coming head on to the SDF-1, the SDF-1 detects the Enterprise and
> fires the main cannon. The Enterirpse also fire the photons at the same
> time. Not just one however, but an entire spread while at the same time
> manuevering out of the way of the cannon blast. With the photons set to
> detonate at the blast, the blast would probably be stopped. The
Photon torps stopping the main guns? You gotta be kidding. Several Zentradi
warships exploding doesn't stop the main guns' beam. I think several Zentradi
warships, each a couple of km in length, exploding like that is much more destructive
than photon torps. The Macross main guns would just eat up the torps like a light
snack.
> Enterprise then does a Picard manuever, heads for the bridge, and takes
> it out with with the phasers.
>
Or get punched.
We mustn't forget the sheer number of guns and warheads the Macross has. Even if
Macross weapons did .1 the damage of their Enterprise counterparts, they can fire
several thousand times more weapons at once than the Enterprise. If the Enterprise
was stupid enough to get to close range, it wouldn't stand a chance.
Sir Alby
Slick wrote:
>
> >No. Veritechs can dodge lasers. It's been shown again and again. Doesn't make much
> >sense. But you are comparing the Macross universe to the Star Trek one.
>
> So now you have the fighter-pilots with reflex's faster then the speed
> of light? Sounds like your digging. Also all any one is taking into
Hey, anime physics. Can't just say anime physics don't work, since we are
comparing Macross of Enterprise. You must assume Macross physics apply for the
Macross.
> account is the Phasers and Photons, look at the specs in the tech
> books, they also have some in-close weapons and anti missile defense
> stuff. Also the tech on the Enterprise is better(or at least better
> understood) making it easier to figure out the enemies weak points.
> I realy think all of the people who are saying the Enterprise would
> get vaporized right away aren't realy thinking about it, I love
> Robotech, but you should step back and look at it from the outside,
> then it makes more sense.
How would the Enterprise avoid being vaporized?
Kenji (in exile)
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>>
>> Main points:
>> -Folding or using the main gun takesmore time than powering up shields,
>> phasers, torpedoes, or impulse power.
>
>barrier system, which makes it pretty much invulnerable. And if you do breach it,
>it blows up and destroys everything nearby.
The E-D and any other ST vessel don't hang around near enough for that. They'd
be able to bombard Mars from Jupiter's orbit, why come in close?
>> -Only the Borg had a weapon that cut thru the E-D's shields, I believe it
>> was due to a special varying frequency. The main gun just relies on immense
>> power, while it may take out a Constitution class, probably won't hurt the
>> Galaxy class.
>
>Nothing in the Star Trek universe has the main gun's powers. If you think about
>how few hits from a Klingon cruisers phasers to drop the Enterprise's shields,
>you'd realize the main gun of the SDF1 will evaporate the Enterprise.
I accounted for that possibility, but I don't think the E-D is going to get
hit by my beloved Macross' main gun...
>> -The Macross cant' maneuver as well as the E-D. Watch the shows, guys.
>
>But it does have guns in every direction. It doesn't need to maneuver. Even if it
>can't bring the main guns to bear, all the other guns and warheads will damage the
>Enterprise.
Lasers, particle beams wouldn't scratch the shields, nukes would be similar to
photons, and would get picked off by point defense weaponry, since they don't
travel anywhere near as fast as a photon torpedo.
>> -Feds and Klingons don't stand in front of each other and shoot at close
>> ranges, they do quite a bit of dog fighting in hopes of shaking the weapon
>> locks, etc. The Mac wouldn't be even able to get close enough to a crochety
>> Romulan Warbird to punch it or use it's force field on it.
>
>Can someone verify how slow the SDF1 really is. It seems to make it from Pluto to
>Earth in pretty good time without having to fold. How long would it take the
>Enterprise to get from Pluto the Earth on impulse power?
Impulse power is near light speed. Macross took months to get back, E-D would
take hours (or was it days? Can't remember how far Pluto is).
>> -The E-D can strafe with the phasers. Cute anime babes can't spin the roller
>> ball in the right direction fast enough.
No answer for this one?
>> -Photon torps are explosive, and I do believe, cover more area than Mac's
>> shields can cover. Mac under full shields? They can't shoot, E-D can, and
>> either can eventually shoot thru the shield or wait for the Mac to run out
>> of juice.
>
>How 'bout them beefed up Veritechs carrying reflex warheads? A few hundred of
>those will make toast of the Enterprise.
I don't think they had a few hundred of them, did they? I love Macross, but I
think it's kind of bad none of these scenarios has her acting alone. A photon
torp would take out a squadron of veritech fighters, BTW. And it's FTL.
This is fun :) (Actually, it hurts, I don't want to see the Macross get
destroyed...)
On a related note: Star Fleet may have better technology, but they would
$h*t their pants at the number of Zentraedi vessels that show up...
Sir Alby
> >> -Folding or using the main gun takesmore time than powering up shields,
> >> phasers, torpedoes, or impulse power.
> >
> >barrier system, which makes it pretty much invulnerable. And if you do breach it,
> >it blows up and destroys everything nearby.
>
> The E-D and any other ST vessel don't hang around near enough for that. They'd
> be able to bombard Mars from Jupiter's orbit, why come in close?
>
From what source do you have it that the Enterprise can hit mars from jupiter?
> >> -Only the Borg had a weapon that cut thru the E-D's shields, I believe it
> >> was due to a special varying frequency. The main gun just relies on immense
> >> power, while it may take out a Constitution class, probably won't hurt the
> >> Galaxy class.
> >
> >Nothing in the Star Trek universe has the main gun's powers. If you think about
> >how few hits from a Klingon cruisers phasers to drop the Enterprise's shields,
> >you'd realize the main gun of the SDF1 will evaporate the Enterprise.
>
> I accounted for that possibility, but I don't think the E-D is going to get
> hit by my beloved Macross' main gun...
>
Why not? If the Macross was distant enough, it could track the enterprise and fire
it's main guns at it. I'm sure Zentradi fleets didn't just sit still either. I'm
sure the Macross had targeting computers.
> >> -The Macross cant' maneuver as well as the E-D. Watch the shows, guys.
> >
> >But it does have guns in every direction. It doesn't need to maneuver. Even if it
> >can't bring the main guns to bear, all the other guns and warheads will damage the
> >Enterprise.
>
> Lasers, particle beams wouldn't scratch the shields, nukes would be similar to
> photons, and would get picked off by point defense weaponry, since they don't
> travel anywhere near as fast as a photon torpedo.
>
I disagree. Notice now many lasers and warheads Macross can fire at once versus how
many photon torpedos the enterprise can fire. 1000 to 1? 10000 to 1? The
Enterprise doesn't stand a chance of hitting every missile fired. And reflex
warheads are very powerful. At least as powerful as a photon torpedo. Perhaps the
Enterprise's shields can withstand a few hits. But with the sheer number of missiles
and lasers the Macross can fire, along with the pesky veritech's firing their
missiles and lasers, and the Enterprise's shields would be down in no time.
>>> -Feds and Klingons don't stand in front of each other and shoot at close
>>> ranges, they do quite a bit of dog fighting in hopes of shaking the weapon
>>> locks, etc. The Mac wouldn't be even able to get close enough to a crochety
>>> Romulan Warbird to punch it or use it's force field on it.
>>
>>Can someone verify how slow the SDF1 really is. It seems to make it from Pluto to
>>Earth in pretty good time without having to fold. How long would it take the
>>Enterprise to get from Pluto the Earth on impulse power?
>
>Impulse power is near light speed. Macross took months to get back, E-D would
>take hours (or was it days? Can't remember how far Pluto is).
By the way, if you truly do believe the the power of photon torps and phasers, how
can any federation ship dog fight anyways? Even if they can go near the speed of
light (I doubt it, especially when they're engaged in combat), they couldn't
possibly maneuver that quickly. Nothing I've seen indicated the Enterprise can make
tight turns and stuff like that.
>
> >> -The E-D can strafe with the phasers. Cute anime babes can't spin the roller
> >> ball in the right direction fast enough.
>
> No answer for this one?
Irrelevant, since the Enterprise would be vaporized so quickly it wouldn't make any
difference how fast the cute anime babes can spin the rolloer ball.
>
> >> -Photon torps are explosive, and I do believe, cover more area than Mac's
> >> shields can cover. Mac under full shields? They can't shoot, E-D can, and
> >> either can eventually shoot thru the shield or wait for the Mac to run out
> >> of juice.
> >
> >How 'bout them beefed up Veritechs carrying reflex warheads? A few hundred of
> >those will make toast of the Enterprise.
>
> I don't think they had a few hundred of them, did they? I love Macross, but I
> think it's kind of bad none of these scenarios has her acting alone. A photon
> torp would take out a squadron of veritech fighters, BTW. And it's FTL.
>
They did. In the huge battle above the earth, every veritech was equipped that way.
No. Veritechs can dodge lasers. It's been shown again and again. Doesn't make much
sense. But you are comparing the Macross universe to the Star Trek one.
And I don't think a photon torp can take out a squadron, if the squadron was well
piloted, they wouldn't just sit in formation to get hit like that.
Dragonmaster Lou
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Can someone verify how slow the SDF1 really is. It seems to make it from Pluto to
>Earth in pretty good time without having to fold. How long would it take the
>Enterprise to get from Pluto the Earth on impulse power?
Minutes...
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Ratboy
On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Sir Alby wrote:
> Kenji (in exile) wrote:
> >
> > Main points:
> > -Folding or using the main gun takesmore time than powering up shields,
> > phasers, torpedoes, or impulse power.
>
> The main guns, yes, But folding, probably not. You also forget about the SDF1's
> barrier system, which makes it pretty much invulnerable. And if you do breach it,
> it blows up and destroys everything nearby.
>
One thing about folding and warping: for a fold manuever to succeed,
you need to have the coordinates first. As evident in the first eps. of
Macross they thought they had coordinates for the opposite side of earth,
but because of gravitational distortions and other problems, they ended
up not where they want to be. With Warp power however, you can just take
a general directional heading and run...so to speak.
> > -Only the Borg had a weapon that cut thru the E-D's shields, I believe it
> > was due to a special varying frequency. The main gun just relies on immense
> > power, while it may take out a Constitution class, probably won't hurt the
> > Galaxy class.
>
> Nothing in the Star Trek universe has the main gun's powers. If you think about
> how few hits from a Klingon cruisers phasers to drop the Enterprise's shields,
> you'd realize the main gun of the SDF1 will evaporate the Enterprise.
>
On the topic of shields, I am surprised that people don't realize the
Enterprise has a much better shield then the SDF-1. From looking at
episodes of both, many times you see missile launchers on the SDF-1 blow
up from enemy attack. Who can forget the time Miria broke into the
SDF-1?? However, never once do you seen the surface of the enterprise
obliterated before the shields fail. In order for the Enterprise hull to
be breached, the shields have to be. Basically, the Macross shields are
general for beam weapons, not for projectile weapons while the
Enterprise's shields are shields for all type of weapons. Official Trek
technology states that the shields of the Enterprise is what keeps
micro-objects off the Enterprise when traveling FTL.
> > -The Macross cant' maneuver as well as the E-D. Watch the shows, guys.
>
> But it does have guns in every direction. It doesn't need to maneuver. Even if it
> can't bring the main guns to bear, all the other guns and warheads will damage the
> Enterprise.
>
Macross has guns in every direction, but the Enterprise also has
weapons covering everypoint of the ship. The phasers can cover the
entire ship pretty well, and there are forward and aft torpedo
launchers. While the Macross missile launchers just fires almost
indiscrimately in all directions, the Enterprise Torpedos are fired in
optimal spread for maximum damage.
> > -Feds and Klingons don't stand in front of each other and shoot at close
> > ranges, they do quite a bit of dog fighting in hopes of shaking the weapon
> > locks, etc. The Mac wouldn't be even able to get close enough to a crochety
> > Romulan Warbird to punch it or use it's force field on it.
>
> Can someone verify how slow the SDF1 really is. It seems to make it from Pluto to
> Earth in pretty good time without having to fold. How long would it take the
> Enterprise to get from Pluto the Earth on impulse power?
>
If you take the Generations movie literally, the Enterprise-B was
launched from Earth orbit, and escaped the solar system in mere minutes.
If you take the episodes to be the more accurate, in the borg battle, it
took the Enterprise amost an hour to go from Pluto orbit to Earth orbit.
> > -The E-D can strafe with the phasers. Cute anime babes can't spin the roller
> > ball in the right direction fast enough.
> > -Photon torps are explosive, and I do believe, cover more area than Mac's
> > shields can cover. Mac under full shields? They can't shoot, E-D can, and
> > either can eventually shoot thru the shield or wait for the Mac to run out
> > of juice.
>
> How 'bout them beefed up Veritechs carrying reflex warheads? A few hundred of
> those will make toast of the Enterprise.
>
Now the rest of my comments. =P As have already been stated, a small
piece of rock traveling at near light speed has about the same amount of
explosive power as the medium size nuclear warhead. But in just normal
warp travel the Enterprise is already shielded from such projectiles. So
no matter how many missiles are fired at the Enterprise, I doubt they
would do much damage. If you take the terminology literally, the
Valkeries fire lasers. In one episode of TNG, Enterprise encountered an
inferior civilization that was firing lasers at the Enterprise. Needless
to say the bridge crew was astounded at such an ineffectual weapon. So
already as long as the Enterprise crew don't try to fight the Valkeries
with the shuttles, they are fine. Only if we assume the missiles does as
much damage as even a quarter of a photon torpedo would the valkeries
pose a potential problem.
On to the Macross and the Enterprise themselves. Since I estimate the
Macross to be roughly 2x the size of the Enterprise, that would place the
Macross a little larger then a Romulan Warbird. A few people mentioned
the Daedulus (sp?) manuever. You have to take into account however, of
the transformation time it takes. I also believe that the Macross is
EXTREMELY vulnerable during the transformation. That aside, whether or
not the Daedulus can penetrate or smash the Enteriprise is up to you.
Note however, that the Enterprise also has a manuever of it's own: the
Picard Manuever. If you don't know what this is, it's basically warping
at close range to produce double images of the ship - at which time the
real ship which is closer to the target begans bombardment of target with
all available weapon. This manuever would be VERY effective against the
SDF-1. For one thing, as soon as the Enterprise warps, all surrounding
Valkeries would be destroyed because of the bending of spacetime. At
close range, the main cannon would be useless, and the Enterprise can
thus pass all defenses and be close enough to destroy the bridge.
On to weapons. Contrary to popular belief, the Photon Torpedos are not
FTL as in they travel faster then the speed of light during an attack.
Merely that they CAN be launched when the ship is itself FTL. Phasers
would not work when traveling at warp speed because phasers itself is
traveling on a beam of light. Therefore the phasers can still be fired
during warp, but the damage would be about as bad as a sunburn. The
photon torpedo however, because it is basically a projectile weapon, can
survive the stress of warp, and still pack a punch. From the Tech
Manual, the fastest speed of a photon fired from rest is a little over
Warp 1. How they explain the photon still detonating at the target I'd
forgotten. Assuming that the SDF-1 is made from material as strong as
the Enterprise hull, it will still take a heavy beating from each
Photon. If we take it that photons can travel long distances, it would
be the perfect offense against the main cannon of SDF-1, which we are
taking as the ultimate weapon. Take the following scenerio: Enterprise
is coming head on to the SDF-1, the SDF-1 detects the Enterprise and
fires the main cannon. The Enterirpse also fire the photons at the same
time. Not just one however, but an entire spread while at the same time
manuevering out of the way of the cannon blast. With the photons set to
detonate at the blast, the blast would probably be stopped. The
Enterprise then does a Picard manuever, heads for the bridge, and takes
it out with with the phasers.
All this is making certain assumptions that I am sure many of you would
disagree with. Too bad. =P The biggest assumption is that the Valkeries
are useless against the Enterprise. Others are that phasers are more
powerful then lasers, and the shields are of equal strength against beam
weapons. Any further comments are welcome.
=m=a=c=r=o=s=s====o=r=a=n=g=e==r=o=a=d====g=u=n=d=a=m=*====V=G=Ai====t=o=t=o=r=o
Wayne Lu \ way...@seas.ucla.edu | SPACE!
JAC: Contact Officer \ Ratboy:the One and ONLY!!! ^_^ | MONEY!
AIAA: Vice President \ accept no imitations. | ANIME!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ratboy Kingdom: http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~waynel
UCLA Anime Club Web Site: http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~waynel/JAC
Drogn
>
> Can someone verify how slow the SDF1 really is. It seems to make it
from Pluto to
> Earth in pretty good time without having to fold. How long would it take the
> Enterprise to get from Pluto the Earth on impulse power?
>
In one of the movies (I don't remember which, but probably the
first) the original Enterprise takes the "scenic route" past all the outer
system planets in about a minute of screen time, so I don't think there's
any contest in the sublight speed catagory. Also, in Diane Carey's novel
Final Fronteir (NOT a novelization of the idiotic movie, a totally
separate work that takes place before Kirk is 12) the Constitution class
Enterprize (at that point unnamed, as in, "what do we call this new ship
we built?") has a maximum sublight speed of .76 lightspeed, while the
SDF-1's listed maximum speed in any sources I have is .2 lights, with
several weeks acceleration needed to reach it.
-Drogn, a relatively minor Trek fan
--
G++++, FR+/FW, M+.5, #14.5, AA+, N+++, B, Q++
Seriously considering that altiversal New Adventures of Wheeljack & the Matrix of Primacron story...
Wilson Christopher H C
Ming Yau So (min...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon on
: board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When Minmay's
: song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be sooooooooo
: shock to here something sings in a language besides English and Klingon,
: the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just destroyed)
: by the Macross main gun !!!
Ahh, but the enterprise has been destroyed many times before and
always gets resurrected by some cheesy time trick. Data would set
some phase tacyon bullshit up and bring the ship back. The crew
of the SDF-1 would assume the classic anime pose of dismay over
some cheesy occurance(freeze, fall over, one foot and one hand
sticking up). While they were so incapacitated the enterprise would
take them out.
-Greebs (who thinks that in Real Life(tm) SDF-1 would whip ass)
James Marken
Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>
> They have Riker. Lovely Minmay will be just another notch in the bedpost.
Riker and Minmay!?! Yurusan! Zettttai ni yurusan!!
--
_____________________________________________________________
James Marken (Who apologizes for posting in Japanese, but couldn't think
of a good way to say the same thing in English.)
jma...@indiana.edu
http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~jmarken/
"The important thing is to ignore data, which complicates life."
-James Watson
_____________________________________________________________
Kenji (in exile)
min...@netcom.com (Ming Yau So) wrote:
>Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon on
>board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When Minmay's
>song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be sooooooooo
>shock to here something sings in a language besides English and Klingon,
>the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just destroyed)
>by the Macross main gun !!!
They have Riker. Lovely Minmay will be just another notch in the bedpost.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
mi...@netup.cl
And also, SDF-1 has an inteligent, capable, condecorated captain. Mr Henry
Global. And, How about the enterprice? they got that guy Kirk, who wins
all of his battles just by luck!
Peter Choi
In <31EAF3...@indiana.edu> James Marken <jma...@indiana.edu>
writes:
>Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>>
>> They have Riker. Lovely Minmay will be just another notch in the
bedpost.
>
What the hell does that mean?
Mike Perry
> On the topic of shields, I am surprised that people don't realize the
>Enterprise has a much better shield then the SDF-1. From looking at
Not really.
>episodes of both, many times you see missile launchers on the SDF-1 blow
>up from enemy attack. Who can forget the time Miria broke into the
>SDF-1?? However, never once do you seen the surface of the enterprise
But those times, the shields were not up. See, teh SDF-1 can't
have the full barrier in place, and still fire its weapons, since the
barrier is invulnerable BOTH WAYS. No shooties through the shield. :)
However, once the max damage of the barrier is reached, it detonates
with the force of the main-gun, but spherically.
>technology states that the shields of the Enterprise is what keeps
>micro-objects off the Enterprise when traveling FTL.
Actually, that's the job of the main deflector dish
(deflector, get it? =)
> Macross has guns in every direction, but the Enterprise also has
>weapons covering everypoint of the ship. The phasers can cover the
>entire ship pretty well, and there are forward and aft torpedo
>launchers. While the Macross missile launchers just fires almost
>indiscrimately in all directions, the Enterprise Torpedos are fired in
>optimal spread for maximum damage.
I doubt thier "fired indescriminately". Not a good plan for a
ship 2 years away from resupply! I would immage that each crew in
charge of each missile/gun turret would aim and fire independently
from the rest, ie each turret would have its own "optimum spread".
> Now the rest of my comments. =P As have already been stated, a small
>piece of rock traveling at near light speed has about the same amount of
>explosive power as the medium size nuclear warhead. But in just normal
>warp travel the Enterprise is already shielded from such projectiles. So
>no matter how many missiles are fired at the Enterprise, I doubt they
>would do much damage. If you take the terminology literally, the
>Valkeries fire lasers. In one episode of TNG, Enterprise encountered an
No they don't, they fire 53mm depleted uranium slugs.
>inferior civilization that was firing lasers at the Enterprise. Needless
>to say the bridge crew was astounded at such an ineffectual weapon. So
>already as long as the Enterprise crew don't try to fight the Valkeries
>with the shuttles, they are fine. Only if we assume the missiles does as
>much damage as even a quarter of a photon torpedo would the valkeries
>pose a potential problem.
A photon apparenty does ~65 megatons of damage, do you can
kindof figure out how much a small nuke would do in relation.
> On to the Macross and the Enterprise themselves. Since I estimate the
>Macross to be roughly 2x the size of the Enterprise, that would place the
Macross is .6 miles long, masses 85,000,000 tons.
>the transformation time it takes. I also believe that the Macross is
>EXTREMELY vulnerable during the transformation. That aside, whether or
well, it is a bigger target, but the armour and weapons are
still there...
>SDF-1. For one thing, as soon as the Enterprise warps, all surrounding
>Valkeries would be destroyed because of the bending of spacetime. At
actually, if the Valkyries were inside the warp bubble, they'd
go along. Outside, they'd get left behind. only ones destroyed would
be the ones "half-in, half-out".
>traveling on a beam of light. Therefore the phasers can still be fired
>during warp, but the damage would be about as bad as a sunburn. The
A phaser fired at warp would get left behind by the ship,
unless it was warp 1, in which case it'd "pile up" in front of the
warp bubble..
>forgotten. Assuming that the SDF-1 is made from material as strong as
>the Enterprise hull,
at least
>Photon. If we take it that photons can travel long distances, it would
>be the perfect offense against the main cannon of SDF-1, which we are
>taking as the ultimate weapon. Take the following scenerio: Enterprise
>is coming head on to the SDF-1, the SDF-1 detects the Enterprise and
>fires the main cannon. The Enterirpse also fire the photons at the same
>time. Not just one however, but an entire spread while at the same time
>manuevering out of the way of the cannon blast. With the photons set to
Remember that the cannon doesn't require a direct hit. Even a
near-miss peeled the hull of a 5-mile long Zentraedi battle-waggon...
You also forgot the Enterprise's biggest advantage. Distance.
Photon torpedoes have a range of 3 million miles (according the tech
manual), while the SDF-1's main gun is limited to 60,000/100,000 miles
(depending on what you read). So the Big-E could just sit 2.5 million
miles away, and pummel it to death.
Course, i'd like to the see the Federation take on the
Zentraedi fleet! 4.5 million warships...
Or the Invid...
Wilson Christopher H C
P. Tram (son...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Full impulse speed is supposed to be pretty damn close to light speed with
: full normal physics. Ie time distortions. The faster the Enterprise
: goes, in normal space, the more time distorted they become.
Whooah! If that's true then the Enterprise wins hands down. At
relativistic velocities the supposedly empty interstellar medium
assumes the characteristics of a high energy proton accelerator.
We're talking giga-eV here. Any ship that can ship that can shrug
off a continual assault of that magnitude doesn't have to worry about
anythin other that the SDF-1s main gun. Face it guys the Star Trek
universe simply has too much cheese to be overcome by the coolness
of the Macross universe.
If we're gonna have fights let's make them more personal.
Guld Goa Bowman vs. Riker (in a steel cage so none of Riker's
women can interfere)
Data vs. Sharon Apple in a battle of will.
ect.
-Greebs
B. Hwang
On the boarding question. First off, I thought it was only the Enterprise, not all of Starfleet. Secondly, does the
Enterprise carry marines? I've only seen security teams, who were mostly armed to repel boarders. If the Enterprise could
successfullytake control of the bridge quickly, then yes, it is possible that they could successfully board. Otherwise,
all the mecha on the SDF-1 might have a little bit of impact on the fight. - Peter
Another ST sidequestion: Does the Enterprise have anything in the way of a boarding force? I mean besides away teams?
I don't think an away team would last too long against a couple mecha.
B. Hwang
Actually, the thing I think the Zentradi have to worry about is the Federation's industrial capacity. Consider
how fast their battle fleet could grow if they start getting really serious about building warships (like the
Klingons).
Conclusion: The federation's probably way too big to take over quickly or easily, and it's industrial capacity
and the production of new ships is too great to ignore. - Peter
Kenji (in exile)
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Ratboy wrote:
<snip>
>> Now the rest of my comments. =P As have already been stated, a small
>> piece of rock traveling at near light speed has about the same amount of
>> explosive power as the medium size nuclear warhead. But in just normal
>
>If you believe this, why does the enterprise get damaged by phasers and photon torps?
Because they're charged particles design to both destroy objects _and_
overcome such things as shields.
<snip>
>What about thousands of missiles doing a .1 the damage of a photon torp? That would
>still be like getting hit by 10-20 photon torpedos. I do not think the Enterprises
>shields can handle that. I think we have sufficient evidence that the veritechs
>alone could fire that many, never mind how many the Macross could fire. The
>Enterprise is vapor at that point.
Are the missiles charged in any way? The E-D sucks up millions of
debris in warp, the missiles shouldn't bother it any...
>> On to the Macross and the Enterprise themselves. Since I estimate the
>> Macross to be roughly 2x the size of the Enterprise, that would place the
>> Macross a little larger then a Romulan Warbird. A few people mentioned
>> the Daedulus (sp?) manuever. You have to take into account however, of
>
>The Daedulus maneuver is ludicrous anyways. It should never be able to hit Zentradi
>ships either. Given that the Macross will fight with Macross physics and the
>Enterprise with Star Trek physics, we must say that the Macross will somehow pull of
>the Daedalus maneuver.
>
>> the transformation time it takes. I also believe that the Macross is
>> EXTREMELY vulnerable during the transformation. That aside, whether or
>> not the Daedulus can penetrate or smash the Enteriprise is up to you.
>> Note however, that the Enterprise also has a manuever of it's own: the
>> Picard Manuever. If you don't know what this is, it's basically warping
>> at close range to produce double images of the ship - at which time the
>> real ship which is closer to the target begans bombardment of target with
>> all available weapon. This manuever would be VERY effective against the
>> SDF-1. For one thing, as soon as the Enterprise warps, all surrounding
>> Valkeries would be destroyed because of the bending of spacetime. At
>> close range, the main cannon would be useless, and the Enterprise can
>> thus pass all defenses and be close enough to destroy the bridge.
>
>Or be punched by the Daedalus.
Ouch! :) If they were transformed, and not surprised by Picard's
manuever, that could very well happen.
>> On to weapons. Contrary to popular belief, the Photon Torpedos are not
>> FTL as in they travel faster then the speed of light during an attack.
>> Merely that they CAN be launched when the ship is itself FTL. Phasers
>> would not work when traveling at warp speed because phasers itself is
>> traveling on a beam of light. Therefore the phasers can still be fired
>> during warp, but the damage would be about as bad as a sunburn. The
>> photon torpedo however, because it is basically a projectile weapon, can
>> survive the stress of warp, and still pack a punch. From the Tech
>> Manual, the fastest speed of a photon fired from rest is a little over
>> Warp 1. How they explain the photon still detonating at the target I'd
>> forgotten. Assuming that the SDF-1 is made from material as strong as
>> the Enterprise hull, it will still take a heavy beating from each
>
>Much stronger. The Enterprise, without shields, can't take much punishment. The
>Macross, as we have seen time and time again, is nearly indestructible. It crash
>lands onto Macross island with nary a scratch. The Enterprise crash lands and it's a
>smoking pile of reckage. The Enterprise is very high tech. A little damage here, a
>little damage there, and the warp core goes kaboom! The Macross, if you believe in
>Mac II (which I don't, BTW), is so tough even it's command tower is still capable of
>flying after the rest of it is destroyed.
>
>> Photon. If we take it that photons can travel long distances, it would
>
>How much distance can the main guns fire? I assume an energy weapon like that can
>travel much farther than photon torps.
I imagine a peace loving planet. La la la laddi la. The Main Gun destroys
it... How many innocent lives were lost? ^_^;;
>> be the perfect offense against the main cannon of SDF-1, which we are
>> taking as the ultimate weapon. Take the following scenerio: Enterprise
>> is coming head on to the SDF-1, the SDF-1 detects the Enterprise and
>> fires the main cannon. The Enterirpse also fire the photons at the same
>> time. Not just one however, but an entire spread while at the same time
>> manuevering out of the way of the cannon blast. With the photons set to
>> detonate at the blast, the blast would probably be stopped. The
>
>Photon torps stopping the main guns? You gotta be kidding. Several Zentradi
>warships exploding doesn't stop the main guns' beam. I think several Zentradi
>warships, each a couple of km in length, exploding like that is much more destructive
>than photon torps. The Macross main guns would just eat up the torps like a light
>snack.
Then blow up in indigestion. They had to fix the Macross when it crashed,
the repair took years. And I agree, I don't think the E-D has enough torps
to try something like that.
<snip>
>We mustn't forget the sheer number of guns and warheads the Macross has. Even if
>Macross weapons did .1 the damage of their Enterprise counterparts, they can fire
>several thousand times more weapons at once than the Enterprise. If the Enterprise
>was stupid enough to get to close range, it wouldn't stand a chance.
My wife shooting a million spitballs at me would just annoy me, not kill me.
(Now that 30-40 Krag, that would hurt!)
Kenji (in exile)
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Slick wrote:
>>
>> >No. Veritechs can dodge lasers. It's been shown again and again. Doesn't make much
>> >sense. But you are comparing the Macross universe to the Star Trek one.
>>
>> of light? Sounds like your digging. Also all any one is taking into
>
>Hey, anime physics. Can't just say anime physics don't work, since we are
>comparing Macross of Enterprise. You must assume Macross physics apply for the
>Macross.
Remember Trek physics, too! Cardboard monsters are viscious, and some eat
planets for breakfast!
Kenji (in exile)
"The People, Jones" <ltj...@ipa.net> wrote:
>I got it! Globe tries to talk them into something...e-D lowers the
>sheilds...
>
>then...VERITECH HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile, a security team holds the Macross' bridge crew hostage...
Kenji (in exile)
>>Hey, anime physics. Can't just say anime physics don't work, since we are
>>comparing Macross of Enterprise. You must assume Macross physics apply for the
>>Macross.
><snip>
>
>Remember Trek physics, too! Cardboard monsters are viscious, and some eat
>planets for breakfast!
Aak! I mean "vicious" not "viscous", though the paper mache may have still
been sticky when they shoot the scene...
Peter Choi
In <31ebaed1....@news.kent.net> mpe...@kent.net (Mike Perry)
writes:
Well, someone claims that Federation has more than millions of
vessels. 45%of them are battleship, and surely Klingons have more than
10,000 battle ships including bird-of-prey.
Also, think about transporter! If boarding party armed with phaser
rofle and Riker who can easily TAKE OUT Minmay, what gonna be happened?
Sir Alby
B. Hwang wrote:
>
> I dunno, I still think it's a good idea for the Enterprise to get as close t
> the SDF-1 as possible. If for example, they could stay behind the SDF-1
> for the entire engagement (minimum number of weapons pointing that way
> usually), well, first of all, the main gun can't hit them. Secondly, less
> guns to pound on them. The Enterprise's main advantage during a fight would
> be maneuverability (unless of course you believe that the Enterprise can FTL
> in real space, and survive a hit with a small rock. If this is the case,
> you'd need the amount of energy produced by antimatter/matter reaction equal
> to reaction involving mass several orders of magnitude larger than the rock.)
> Anyways, the Enterprise's best strategy would be to overload the shields, and
> then pound the SDF-1 with everything it's got, and basically attempt to
> turn the entire rear of the SDF-1 into a blind zone. Their option is to
> attempt to snipe from warp space (warp in, fire a spread of torps, warp out),
> but I think this might take a little too long. Anyways, I still think the
> Enterprise would get toasted by the main gun. - Peter
I wasn't aware of any blind spots. If you look at how the Macross fires it
reflex warheads while inside Dolza's main battle fortress, you can see it goes in
every which direction. How many missiles did the Macross fire anyways? Seemed
like an awful lot of them.
chu...@soca.com
James Marken wrote:
>
> Kenji (in exile) wrote:
> >
> > They have Riker. Lovely Minmay will be just another notch in the bedpost.
>
> Riker and Minmay!?! Yurusan! Zettttai ni yurusan!!
> _____________________________________________________________
> James Marken (Who apologizes for posting in Japanese, but couldn't think
> of a good way to say the same thing in English.)
> jma...@indiana.edu
> http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~jmarken/
>
> "The important thing is to ignore data, which complicates life."
> -James Watson
> _____________________________________________________________
Riker may bag Minmay, but after that he'll be in the brig and court-marshalled. Minmay is 15-17 years old
during the Macross saga. She is jail bait. Riker, try to bag Counselor Troy!
Riker isn't even a better soldier than Macross' finest female, Miriyia Perina. Miriyia Perina, in her Power
Armor or red veritech, could easily destroy Riker in his pathetic Fed shuttle. In either veritech battloid
mode or Power Armor, she could rip open Riker's shttle.
chu...@SoCA.com
P. Tram
In article <4seb38$b...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
B. Hwang <dark...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>I think I'd discount the movie. Earth itself is 5 light MINUTES away
>from the sun. Pluto is much, much, much further.
_8_ light minutes! The sun's light takes 8 minutes to get to us.
>Final Fronteir may be accurate, although as I remember, that was about
>the very first Enterprise, which probably means the Enterprise-D ought to
>be able to go somewhere around .9c. Ought to have fairly decent shields
>(not to mention inertial compenssators!) to handle that speed. Oh,
>anyone know how many times the speed of light Warp 10 is? I've heard
>it's 10^10*c, but I'm not too sure. - Peter
Full impulse speed is supposed to be pretty damn close to light speed with
full normal physics. Ie time distortions. The faster the Enterprise
goes, in normal space, the more time distorted they become.
Warp 10 is subjective to current technology. Voyager said that Warp 10
allowed the ship to be anywhere at any time. The ST:TNG Enterprise-D's
Warp scales are different from ST:TOS Enterpirse's Warp scales. ST:TNG's
"All Good Things" had a modified Enterprise-D going at Warp 13.
Phuc Tram * DBZ Liberation Front * | ---
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http://weber.u.washington.edu/~songoku/dragonball.html * --- | |
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****************************************************************** | ---
B. Hwang
Hmmm, I guess I stand corrected. Anyways, I suppose the Enterprise could
have taken a couple minutes (or even a minute!) to get past Pluto if you
use subjective time. Forgot about that part. Anyways my question about
warp speeds was trying to gauge the strength of the shields. Consider,
if warp really is in powers of ten, then Warp 9 = 10^9*c. A small rock
hitting an object going at 1c is somewhere around the low megatons.
Assume all of this is from kinetic energy. At Warp 9, then kinetic energy
would be 10^18 ties greater. Anyways, to get through shields that can
withstand such a hit... would take a lot of power. Somehow I really doubt
that the Enterprise moves through normal space at Warp 9. Either that or
planets should get destroyed more often. ("Dang! Missed again! There goes
Mars!") Ah well... - Peter
Slick
>No. Veritechs can dodge lasers. It's been shown again and again. Doesn't make much
>sense. But you are comparing the Macross universe to the Star Trek one.
So now you have the fighter-pilots with reflex's faster then the speed
of light? Sounds like your digging. Also all any one is taking into
account is the Phasers and Photons, look at the specs in the tech
books, they also have some in-close weapons and anti missile defense
stuff. Also the tech on the Enterprise is better(or at least better
understood) making it easier to figure out the enemies weak points.
I realy think all of the people who are saying the Enterprise would
get vaporized right away aren't realy thinking about it, I love
Robotech, but you should step back and look at it from the outside,
then it makes more sense.
Slick
Still trying to buy a VW Squareback in HI.
http://www.vvm.com/~tkaufman
Fireflight in TF2 mush (TF2.ORG 1996)
Rick Hunter
After seeing these VS threads getting extremely ridiculous (ie Star
Trek characters sleeping with animated Robotech characters just isn't
right) I noted how many people really love these silly VS posts and how
many just hate them. So why not create a NEW newsgroup just dedicated
to VS ideas and threads. I like having fun in newsgroups, but these
threads are seriously going nowhere fast.
Louis de Pointe du Lac
org...@ix.netcom.com
The People, Jones
Peter,
That's the subspace they tak about..nothing can travel FTL in normal
space...so subspace is there with different properties to facilitate warp
drive
The People, Jones
Stephen Gaisano
Please don't forget that the Enterprise have a transporter system, and if
there are a lot of starfleet ships, the SDF-1 will be boarded and
overwhelmed. Probably the Starfleet boarding party have their own
portable shields with them and all the Macross population could do is
shoot bullets.
Wilson Christopher H C
Ratboy (way...@lightning.seas.ucla.edu) wrote:
: Enterprise's shields are shields for all type of weapons. Official Trek
: technology states that the shields of the Enterprise is what keeps
: micro-objects off the Enterprise when traveling FTL.
I'm sorry but that's crappy. You'd think Official Trek tecnology
would at least try to adhere to _some_ laws of physics. I always
thought that wapr involved being stationary in a moving bit of
space(in which case you wouldn't need to worry about little rocks).
FTL travel in real space is impossible.
: Macross has guns in every direction, but the Enterprise also has
: weapons covering everypoint of the ship. The phasers can cover the
: entire ship pretty well, and there are forward and aft torpedo
: launchers. While the Macross missile launchers just fires almost
: indiscrimately in all directions, the Enterprise Torpedos are fired in
: optimal spread for maximum damage.
The SDF-1 fires for maximum damage as well it's just surrounded by
a gagillion more ships so it looks random.
: > Can someone verify how slow the SDF1 really is. It seems to make it from Pluto to
: > Earth in pretty good time without having to fold. How long would it take the
: > Enterprise to get from Pluto the Earth on impulse power?
: If you take the Generations movie literally, the Enterprise-B was
: launched from Earth orbit, and escaped the solar system in mere minutes.
: If you take the episodes to be the more accurate, in the borg battle, it
: took the Enterprise amost an hour to go from Pluto orbit to Earth orbit.
And here I thought that impulse power wasn't faster than light. No
way can the Enterprise go that fast without warp.
: Note however, that the Enterprise also has a manuever of it's own: the
: Picard Manuever. If you don't know what this is, it's basically warping
: at close range to produce double images of the ship - at which time the
: real ship which is closer to the target begans bombardment of target with
: all available weapon. This manuever would be VERY effective against the
: SDF-1. For one thing, as soon as the Enterprise warps, all surrounding
: Valkeries would be destroyed because of the bending of spacetime. At
: close range, the main cannon would be useless, and the Enterprise can
: thus pass all defenses and be close enough to destroy the bridge.
Or the SDF-1 could just wait for the right moment and fold, ripping
the enterprise apart.
: On to weapons. Contrary to popular belief, the Photon Torpedos are not
: FTL as in they travel faster then the speed of light during an attack.
: Merely that they CAN be launched when the ship is itself FTL. Phasers
: would not work when traveling at warp speed because phasers itself is
: traveling on a beam of light. Therefore the phasers can still be fired
: during warp, but the damage would be about as bad as a sunburn.
I have no clue what kind of logic you're using here.
: photon torpedo however, because it is basically a projectile weapon, can
: survive the stress of warp, and still pack a punch. From the Tech
: Manual, the fastest speed of a photon fired from rest is a little over
: Warp 1. How they explain the photon still detonating at the target I'd
You mean to tell me they fit a warp drive in those suckers?!?
: forgotten. Assuming that the SDF-1 is made from material as strong as
: the Enterprise hull, it will still take a heavy beating from each
Much stronger, the SDF-1 survives getting hit much better than the
enterprise
: Photon. If we take it that photons can travel long distances, it would
: be the perfect offense against the main cannon of SDF-1, which we are
:taking as the ultimate weapon. Take the following scenerio: Enterprise
:is coming head on to the SDF-1, the SDF-1 detects the Enterprise and
:fires the main cannon. The Enterirpse also fire the photons at the same
:time. Not just one however, but an entire spread while at the same time
:manuevering out of the way of the cannon blast. With the photons set to
:detonate at the blast, the blast would probably be stopped. The
Whatever! How are photon torpedo detonations supposed to stop
the main gun?
:Enterprise then does a Picard manuever, heads for the bridge, and takes
:it out with with the phasers.
The enterprise does _not_ want to close with the SDF-1. Many people
seem to be of the opinion that the SDF-1s secondary weaponry is totally
ineffective against the enterprise's shields. Bull. Even if they
did very little damage indeed, there are so many of them that it
would add up to a signifigant amount.
-Greebs
Wilson Christopher H C
Stephen Gaisano (i909...@wsunix.wsu.edu) wrote:
: Please don't forget that the Enterprise have a transporter system, and if
Why have I never seen these personal shields in any episode ever?
-Greebs
Amoja Sumler
In article <31ead6f5...@news.novia.net>, Yot...@oasis.novia.net
says...
>
>Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Zentraedi have ships that are falling apart. No comparison to the E-D,
>except Starfleet would lose due to sheer numbers.
You are at best mistaken, at worst you are NUTS the Zentraedi ships SELF
REPAIR. They are never in bad shape unless they are running low on
protoculture. They don't LOOK as good as the USS Enterprise, but are
vastly more powerful, even more powerful than than the SDF 1, which all
and of itself was more than a match for the Enterprise, only a Borg
Vessel could damage a Zentreadi Flag Ship, and NOTHING in the Startrek
wolrd, could have even started to damage Dolza's Ship, or Reno's
Protoculture Satellite.
The Mo-Man
Support the Shapings
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http://www.intellinet.com/~ads/ Member of P.O.E. Support The
Shapings!
Mike Breen
Sir Alby wrote about Re: Macross(aka SDF-1) vs Enterprise-D: a new debate.:
>How much distance can the main guns fire? I assume an energy weapon like
>that can travel much farther than photon torps.
Well... we know the main gun can fire from the Earth's surface to at
_least_ Earth orbit. Probably a _lot_ further.
---Mike (THIS SPACE UNDER CONSTRUCTION)
The new, faster home of the Other Days home page is
http://www.channel1.com/users/mikeb/odays.html
Kenji (in exile)
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Peter Choi wrote:
>>
>> In <mingsoDu...@netcom.com> min...@netcom.com (Ming Yau So)
>> writes:
>> >
>> >Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon
>> on
>> >board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When
>> Minmay's
>> >song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be
>> sooooooooo
>> >shock to here something sings in a language besides English and
>> Klingon,
>> >the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just
>> destroyed)
>> >by the Macross main gun !!!
>>
>> ochestra, and Worf who can sing Klingon opera!
>
>I'm sorry guys. All this time I'd been rooting for the Macross. But with
>those four playing music together. They could wipe out the entire galaxy:)
I won! I won! Oh, wait... it's a funny... nevermind! ^_^;;
Kenji (in exile)
3c...@qlink.queensu.ca (Wilson Christopher H C) wrote:
>Ming Yau So (min...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon on
>: board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When Minmay's
>: song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be sooooooooo
>: shock to here something sings in a language besides English and Klingon,
>: the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just destroyed)
>: by the Macross main gun !!!
>
> Ahh, but the enterprise has been destroyed many times before and
> always gets resurrected by some cheesy time trick. Data would set
> some phase tacyon bullshit up and bring the ship back. The crew
> of the SDF-1 would assume the classic anime pose of dismay over
> some cheesy occurance(freeze, fall over, one foot and one hand
> sticking up). While they were so incapacitated the enterprise would
> take them out.
ROTFL!
Anyone for Lum vs. Enterprise-D?
Kenji (in exile)
son...@u.washington.edu (P. Tram) wrote:
>In article <4seb38$b...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
>B. Hwang <dark...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>I think I'd discount the movie. Earth itself is 5 light MINUTES away
>>from the sun. Pluto is much, much, much further.
>
>_8_ light minutes! The sun's light takes 8 minutes to get to us.
Thank God!!! I thought we were going to be dying soon...
Kenji (in exile)
mi...@netup.cl wrote:
>And also, SDF-1 has an inteligent, capable, condecorated captain. Mr Henry
>Global. And, How about the enterprice? they got that guy Kirk, who wins
>all of his battles just by luck!
Dude. Wake up. We're talking about Picard's ship, here.
Sir Alby
> debris in warp, the missiles shouldn't bother it any...
>
As I said earlier, it seems there are two versions of the Enterprise's shields. One
that can withstand debris at warp and another that get's taken down with a few photon
torps. I'm using the one they use in combat scenes, ie. the one that is relatively
weak.
Mike Breen
Sir Alby wrote about Re: Macross(aka SDF-1) vs Enterprise-D: a new debate.:
>
>But it does have guns in every direction. It doesn't need to maneuver
Not only that, but the DYRL-issue Macross was pretty damned maneuverable
during the final battle. One could assume that the TV-issue Macross was
about the same on the maneuverability scale.
chu...@soca.com
Stephen Gaisano wrote:
>
> Please don't forget that the Enterprise have a transporter system, and if
> there are a lot of starfleet ships, the SDF-1 will be boarded and
> overwhelmed. Probably the Starfleet boarding party have their own
> portable shields with them and all the Macross population could do is
> shoot bullets.
You say the Starfleet boarding party will probably, I repeat, probably, have their own portable shields. Hey,
let's deal with facts of the programs. If you saw an episode where Starfleet boarding parties had portable
shields, then it's a sound argument. If not, then it's unsound. As for Macross forces shooting bullets, I seem
to recall Veritechs having lasers. A military that arms their fighters with lasers will in all probability have
rifles and hand guns with lasers.
Don't forget the SDF-1 has a defensive shield. I'm not talking about the Pinpoint Barrier system, where three
rotating energy shields protect the ship. I'm referring to the Omni Directional Barrier system, which covers
the entire ship. (Remember how the SDF-1 destroyed Khyron's forces over the Ontario Quadrant with a barrier
overload?) Fed boarding parties can't invade the ship through the tranporters with the Omni Directional
Barrier activated.
One last thing, the Feds wouldn't even get the opportunity to transport a boarding party. The Veritechs led by
Rick Hunter and Max Sterling's Skull Squadron would shred any Fed ship in the matter of minutes.
chu...@SoCA.com
B. Hwang
Dragonmaster Lou
dark...@u.washington.edu (B. Hwang) wrote:
>inertial compenssators!) to handle that speed. Oh, anyone know how many times the speed of light Warp 10 is? I've heard
>it's 10^10*c, but I'm not too sure. - Peter
Actually, Warp 10 is infinite speed as they gave the warp scale an
exponentially increasing curve.
---
+-------------- http://www.netspace.org/users/drgnmstr ----------------+
|Dragon...@brown.edu|"Searching for a distant star, heading off to |
|"Dragonmaster Lou" |Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows|
|Technology House |what dangers we'll find..." |
+------------------ ftp://yamato.techhouse.brown.edu ------------------+
Save Our Sailors: Please help keep "Sailor Moon" on the air in the US by
signing the SOS petition @ http://looney.physics.sunysb.edu/~daffy/sos/
Peter Choi
Peter Choi
Bruce James Robert Linley
min...@netcom.com (Ming Yau So) wrote:
>Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon on
>board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When Minmay's
>song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be sooooooooo
>shock to here something sings in a language besides English and Klingon,
>the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just destroyed)
>by the Macross main gun !!!
Yeah, but the original enterprise had Kevin Riley! (singing "Kathleen",
remember?). Sure the Big E would pound SDF while Gloval and Co. have
their hands over their ears screaming "No more!"
--
Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | Kyuuketsuki Miyu, Armitage III
lin...@netcom.com | | |NV | UT | Lovely Angels, Ah My Goddess!
Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ |-------------------------------
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ----------> \*| AZ | My opinions, not my employers.
lee chris
In note <Pine.OSF.3.91.96071...@unicorn.it.wsu.edu>, Stephen
>Please don't forget that the Enterprise have a transporter system, and if
>there are a lot of starfleet ships, the SDF-1 will be boarded and
>overwhelmed. Probably the Starfleet boarding party have their own
>portable shields with them and all the Macross population could do is
>shoot bullets.
Yeah, right. The starfleet dweebs vs a well-trained military force fighting on
their home turf. It'll be a masscre all right. Of the Stardreck forces, that
is....
Kenji (in exile)
Home turf? The Macross was still fairly alien to it's own crew, while a
Star Fleet marine would be familiar with invading a strange ship. But the
E-D doesn't have any marines, and would target the bridge, anyway.
Ellen L. Contini-Morava
In article <31ead6f5...@news.novia.net>,><snip>
>>> The E-D and any other ST vessel don't hang around near enough for that. They'd
>>> be able to bombard Mars from Jupiter's orbit, why come in close?
>>>
>>
>>From what source do you have it that the Enterprise can hit mars from jupiter?
>
>Starfleet Battles? :D
>
>>> >> -Only the Borg had a weapon that cut thru the E-D's shields, I believe it
>>> >> was due to a special varying frequency. The main gun just relies on immense
>>> >> power, while it may take out a Constitution class, probably won't hurt the
>>> >> Galaxy class.
>>> >
>>> >Nothing in the Star Trek universe has the main gun's powers. If you think about
>>> >how few hits from a Klingon cruisers phasers to drop the Enterprise's shields,
>>> >you'd realize the main gun of the SDF1 will evaporate the Enterprise.
>>>
>>> I accounted for that possibility, but I don't think the E-D is going to get
>>> hit by my beloved Macross' main gun...
>>
>>Why not? If the Macross was distant enough, it could track the enterprise and fire
>>it's main guns at it. I'm sure Zentradi fleets didn't just sit still either. I'm
>>sure the Macross had targeting computers.
>
>Zentraedi have ships that are falling apart. No comparison to the E-D, except
>Starfleet would lose due to sheer numbers.
>
>>> >
>>> >can't bring the main guns to bear, all the other guns and warheads will damage the
>>> >Enterprise.
>>>
>>> Lasers, particle beams wouldn't scratch the shields, nukes would be similar to
>>> photons, and would get picked off by point defense weaponry, since they don't
>>> travel anywhere near as fast as a photon torpedo.
>>
>>I disagree. Notice now many lasers and warheads Macross can fire at once versus how
>>many photon torpedos the enterprise can fire. 1000 to 1? 10000 to 1? The
>>Enterprise doesn't stand a chance of hitting every missile fired. And reflex
>>warheads are very powerful. At least as powerful as a photon torpedo. Perhaps the
>>Enterprise's shields can withstand a few hits. But with the sheer number of missiles
>>and lasers the Macross can fire, along with the pesky veritech's firing their
>>missiles and lasers, and the Enterprise's shields would be down in no time.
>
>This reminds me of Battletech versus some other game/show/M1a1 Abrams threads.
>What's the range and speed of these missiles, BTW.
>
>>>>> -Feds and Klingons don't stand in front of each other and shoot at close
>>>>> ranges, they do quite a bit of dog fighting in hopes of shaking the weapon
>>>>> locks, etc. The Mac wouldn't be even able to get close enough to a crochety
>>>>> Romulan Warbird to punch it or use it's force field on it.
>>>>
>>>>Can someone verify how slow the SDF1 really is. It seems to make it from Pluto to
>>>>Earth in pretty good time without having to fold. How long would it take the
>>>>Enterprise to get from Pluto the Earth on impulse power?
>>>
>>>take hours (or was it days? Can't remember how far Pluto is).
>>
>>By the way, if you truly do believe the the power of photon torps and phasers, how
>>can any federation ship dog fight anyways? Even if they can go near the speed of
>>light (I doubt it, especially when they're engaged in combat), they couldn't
>>possibly maneuver that quickly. Nothing I've seen indicated the Enterprise can make
>>tight turns and stuff like that.
>
>Same way today's fighters' dogfight, just on a much larger scale... You're not
>really watching where that missile is, you're just hoping what you're doing
>keeps you from getting hit. Come to think of it, I don't know exactly what E-D
>or Macross has for jamming capabilities...
>
>>> >> -The E-D can strafe with the phasers. Cute anime babes can't spin the roller
>>> >> ball in the right direction fast enough.
>>>
>>> No answer for this one?
>>
>>Irrelevant, since the Enterprise would be vaporized so quickly it wouldn't make any
>>difference how fast the cute anime babes can spin the rolloer ball.
>
>Ooh, getting sly, are we? :D
>
>>> >> -Photon torps are explosive, and I do believe, cover more area than Mac's
>>> >> shields can cover. Mac under full shields? They can't shoot, E-D can, and
>>> >> either can eventually shoot thru the shield or wait for the Mac to run out
>>> >> of juice.
>>> >
>>> >How 'bout them beefed up Veritechs carrying reflex warheads? A few hundred of
>>> >those will make toast of the Enterprise.
>>>
>>> I don't think they had a few hundred of them, did they? I love Macross, but I
>>> think it's kind of bad none of these scenarios has her acting alone. A photon
>>> torp would take out a squadron of veritech fighters, BTW. And it's FTL.
>
>'Scuse me here, meant NLS (near light speed).
>
>>They did. In the huge battle above the earth, every veritech was equipped that way.
>>
>>No. Veritechs can dodge lasers. It's been shown again and again. Doesn't make much
>>sense. But you are comparing the Macross universe to the Star Trek one.
>
>that half the fun?
>
>>And I don't think a photon torp can take out a squadron, if the squadron was well
>>piloted, they wouldn't just sit in formation to get hit like that.
>
>Not after that first hit. But I sure remember Hikaru running his team in
>formations, though... Must mean Macross doesn't have any good pilots... Nah.
>
>BTW...
>Should I bother to substitute the upgraded E-D with the 3 warp engines and
>a cloak? Now that sucker can move...
Sir Alby
Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>
> lee chris <cl...@envirolink.org> wrote:
> >In note <Pine.OSF.3.91.96071...@unicorn.it.wsu.edu>, Stephen
> >Gaisano writes:
> >>Please don't forget that the Enterprise have a transporter system, and if
> >>there are a lot of starfleet ships, the SDF-1 will be boarded and
> >>overwhelmed. Probably the Starfleet boarding party have their own
> >>portable shields with them and all the Macross population could do is
> >>shoot bullets.
> >
> >Yeah, right. The starfleet dweebs vs a well-trained military force fighting on
> >their home turf. It'll be a masscre all right. Of the Stardreck forces, that
> >is....
>
> Home turf? The Macross was still fairly alien to it's own crew, while a
> Star Fleet marine would be familiar with invading a strange ship. But the
> E-D doesn't have any marines, and would target the bridge, anyway.
>
Yeah, right. I can see it now.
Enterprise boarding party materializes inside Macross.
WORF: "Where are we?"
WEENIE GUY: "I don't know. But there is a giant piece of tuna here."
WORF: "Let's take the left corridor."
Days later...
WEENIE GUY: "Are we there yet? I have to go to the bathroom!"
WORF: "I'm sure if we take this corridor, we'll get out"
WEENIE GUY: "Nope. Not it. I think I'll break this pipe and take a shower!"
Weeks later...
WORF: "Mmmm. Never realized human meat was so delicious..."
Sir Alby
Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>
> Dragon...@brown.edu (Dragonmaster Lou) wrote:
>
> >dark...@u.washington.edu (B. Hwang) wrote:
> >
> >>inertial compenssators!) to handle that speed. Oh, anyone know how many times the speed of light Warp 10 is? I've heard
> >>it's 10^10*c, but I'm not too sure. - Peter
> >
> >Actually, Warp 10 is infinite speed as they gave the warp scale an
> >exponentially increasing curve.
>
So if the Enterprise can withstand particles hitting it at Warp 9, which is
tantamount to being blasted by a super nova, how can phasers and photon
torps possible damage it's shields?
Seems to me like the Enterprise actually does something similar to folding,
in which it travels outside of normal space.
Sir Alby
Sir Alby wrote:
>
> Kenji (in exile) wrote:
> >
> >
>
> Yeah, you turn into a newt, and have cute little newt babies.
>
And screw the Prime Directive. Let's just leave these super advanced human
newt creatures on this planet so they can forever alter it's development.
Slick
mi...@netup.cl wrote:
>And also, SDF-1 has an inteligent, capable, condecorated captain. Mr Henry
>Global. And, How about the enterprice? they got that guy Kirk, who wins
>all of his battles just by luck!
Wrong Captain, the captain of the D was Picard.
Slick
Still trying to buy a VW Squareback in HI.
http://www.vvm.com/~tkaufman
Fireflight in TF2 mush (TF2.ORG 1996)
Mike Breen
Everyone's fogetting one thing, though. The Rick Berman version of Picard
and his PC habbit of "let's talk to the aliens and see what their point of
view is," _especially_ if the aliens are percieved as a threat. Picard
would try to talk his way out of the situation. Gloval was always one for
peace, but he was always a realist. If the ship was a threat, he'd order
an attack. While Roddenberry was alive, Picard would eventually fight if
he knew he had no choice. In that respect, the Roddenberry version of
Picard and Gloval are remarkably similar. After Roddenberry, though, I
think the Macross would make mince meat out of the Enterprise.
Now _Kirk_, OTHO, _there's_ a fight!
ZetaSON
Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>
> min...@netcom.com (Ming Yau So) wrote:
>
> >Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon on
> >board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When Minmay's
> >song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be sooooooooo
> >shock to here something sings in a language besides English and Klingon,
> >the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just destroyed)
> >by the Macross main gun !!!
>
That's if Miria doesn't rip his balls off first!!!!
hehe
--
Zeta SON
so...@spacelab.net
http://www.********.***/~*****
(***) ***-****
"He Who knows men is clever;
He who knows himself has insight.
He who conquers men has force;
He who conquers himself is truly strong."
TAO TEH CHING
~Lao Tzu
ZetaSON
dark...@u.washington.edu (B. Hwang) wrote:
>-Photon torps are explosive, and I do believe, cover more area than >Mac's
> shields can cover. Mac under full shields? They can't shoot, E-D can, >and
> either can eventually shoot thru the shield or wait for the Mac to >run out
> of juice.
Let's not forget about the barrier overload. Can the Enterprise
activate its warp engines B4 it get's hit with the desructon wave????
Kenji (in exile)
ZetaSON <so...@spacelab.net> wrote:
>dark...@u.washington.edu (B. Hwang) wrote:
>>-Photon torps are explosive, and I do believe, cover more area than >Mac's
>> shields can cover. Mac under full shields? They can't shoot, E-D can, >and
>> either can eventually shoot thru the shield or wait for the Mac to >run out
>> of juice.
>
>Let's not forget about the barrier overload. Can the Enterprise
>activate its warp engines B4 it get's hit with the desructon wave????
By the size of the crater that was Ontario, the E-D would be sitting
a comfortable ways away from where it would engage the Macross to be
affected.
GReNDeL
Macross is _alien_ technology. Closest Starfellet analogy is the
Voyager, with the bioneural crap.
Can the palladium role-playing game stats come in here?
If so, most of the macross' guns are rail-guns.
Depleted uranium slugs with a ferrous core propelled
using a magnetic coil to high speeds.
Another thing: the E-D is not structurally sound. They
say so themselves. Structural integrity fields hold it
together for the most part. The macross holds itself
together. (Nuts and bolts)
Sounds like the macross could take a lot more damage.
Anyways, let em duke it out, out of sight out of mind,
each with their own laws of physics in effect. Riker
would end up dating the bridge bunnies, and Minmay would
be strangely attracted to Data. Beverley, Deanna and Lisa
would party hearty, and Rick would make friends with Worf.
(They both believe in life or death charges into the fray)
Slater,
Luke
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Luke "Grendel" Mason | |\/ \/| |\/ \/|
ll...@uow.edu.au | -->.<-- VIVAT GRENDEL!! -->.<--
gre...@rabble.uow.edu.au | \ / \ /
Sir Alby
Kenji (in exile) wrote:
> >>it's 10^10*c, but I'm not too sure. - Peter
> >
> >Actually, Warp 10 is infinite speed as they gave the warp scale an
> >exponentially increasing curve.
>
>
Yeah, you turn into a newt, and have cute little newt babies.
--
Sir Alby
Dragonmaster Lou wrote:
>
> org...@ix.netcom.com(Rick Hunter) wrote:
>
> > After seeing these VS threads getting extremely ridiculous (ie Star
> >Trek characters sleeping with animated Robotech characters just isn't
> >right) I noted how many people really love these silly VS posts and how
> >many just hate them. So why not create a NEW newsgroup just dedicated
> >to VS ideas and threads. I like having fun in newsgroups, but these
> >threads are seriously going nowhere fast.
>
> Well, this is a misc newsgroup. If you don't like vs posts, just
> ignore them or killfile them. :)
If anything, I'd like to see the Ranma tournament stuff moved to a new group.
Rec.arts.anime.ranma.tournament. I hate skipping past hundreds of Ranma
tournament articles just to get to those few scattered between them.
Kenji (in exile)
chu...@SoCA.com wrote:
<snip>
>One last thing, the Feds wouldn't even get the opportunity to transport a boarding party. The Veritechs led by
>Rick Hunter and Max Sterling's Skull Squadron would shred any Fed ship in the matter of minutes.
There wouldn't be any Fed ships for them to shred, the boarding party will
be beamed in by transporter. Beaming Valkyrie pilots out of the cockpit
would be even easier, since the Valkyries move very slow (in the view of
the E-D crew), and unlike the Macross, don't even have a shield to protect
themselves with.
Kenji (in exile)
dark...@u.washington.edu (B. Hwang) wrote:
>On the boarding question. First off, I thought it was only the Enterprise, not all of Starfleet. Secondly, does the
>Enterprise carry marines? I've only seen security teams, who were mostly armed to repel boarders. If the Enterprise could
>successfullytake control of the bridge quickly, then yes, it is possible that they could successfully board. Otherwise,
>all the mecha on the SDF-1 might have a little bit of impact on the fight. - Peter
>
>Another ST sidequestion: Does the Enterprise have anything in the way of a boarding force? I mean besides away teams?
>I don't think an away team would last too long against a couple mecha.
The bridges of both ships are small enough to be taken by
a small team of security (or other similar) personnel.
Worf might be able to handle a fairly small team if one
should happen to appear on the E-D bridge, while a bunch
of anime babes and an old man ain't got any such luck.
Kenji (in exile)
chu...@SoCA.com wrote:
>James Marken wrote:
>>
>> Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>> >
>>
>
>during the Macross saga. She is jail bait. Riker, try to bag Counselor Troy!
>
>Riker isn't even a better soldier than Macross' finest female, Miriyia Perina. Miriyia Perina, in her Power
>Armor or red veritech, could easily destroy Riker in his pathetic Fed shuttle. In either veritech battloid
>mode or Power Armor, she could rip open Riker's shttle.
Point 1: Riker travels by transporter more often than shuttle.
Point 2: Legal age of consent in Japan is -what? 15-16 years old? I can
go out and pick up a sixteen year old in more than a couple places and
not worry about stat rape. (Adultery charges and divorce, though, will
definitely be in my future.)
Point 3: Riker will bag every pretty woman on board the Macross :)
Heck, he's bagged hermaphrodites and holograms... ^o^;;
Kenji (in exile)
ZetaSON <so...@spacelab.net> wrote:
>Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>>
>> min...@netcom.com (Ming Yau So) wrote:
>>
>> >Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful weapon on
>> >board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When Minmay's
>> >song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be sooooooooo
>> >shock to here something sings in a language besides English and Klingon,
>> >the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just destroyed)
>> >by the Macross main gun !!!
>>
>> They have Riker. Lovely Minmay will be just another notch in the bedpost.
>
>That's if Miria doesn't rip his balls off first!!!!
>hehe
Riker (in bed, with a cig): How did you say your name... Miriyah something?
<notch!>
Mike Breen
mi...@netup.cl wrote:
>And also, SDF-1 has an inteligent, capable, condecorated captain. Mr Henry
>Global. And, How about the enterprice? they got that guy Kirk, who wins
>all of his battles just by luck!
If you think that Kirk won all his battles by luck, watch the episode that
introduces the Romulans ("Balance Of Terror," I believe). There is quite a
_bit_ of strategy and tactial anaylasis, not to mention Kirk's reading of
the enemy captain's psychological makeup.
Then, Sl...@hula.net wrote:
>Wrong Captain, the captain of the D was Picard.
Who is third on this list of tacticians, IMO. Kirk is #1, followed by Gloval.
Kenji (in exile)
Dragon...@brown.edu (Dragonmaster Lou) wrote:
>dark...@u.washington.edu (B. Hwang) wrote:
>
>>inertial compenssators!) to handle that speed. Oh, anyone know how many times the speed of light Warp 10 is? I've heard
>>it's 10^10*c, but I'm not too sure. - Peter
>
>Actually, Warp 10 is infinite speed as they gave the warp scale an
>exponentially increasing curve.
Yeah, reach that and you end up in various different times and places.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Dragonmaster Lou
mi...@user1.channel1.com (Mike Breen) wrote:
>Now _Kirk_, OTHO, _there's_ a fight!
Yep, good ol' shoot-first, ask questions later Kirk. :) Albeit even
Kirk if you can talk to him long enough may talk peace on occaision,
but if you get him mad and start a fight with him... heheh :)
Dr. Briefs
Sir Alby wrote:
>Sir Alby wrote:
>>Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>newt creatures on this planet so they can forever alter it's development.
I'll never believe that ST:Voyager episode. Don't like Janeway, anyway.
--
Glenn Wang <br...@ix.netcom.com>, Proud member of #SAS#,
http://www.netcom.com/~brief The Sasami Appreciation Society
***********************************************************************
"I won't forget (this sky) R "Fuurinkan Koukou wa doko da?"
I won't forget (this dream) A "hito yonde, Fuurinkan Koukou
the gentle seasons I now share w/you.N no Aoi Ikazuchi"
In sadness (the days I shook and), M "setsumei shito moraoo ka,
In joy (the days I cried), A Ranma-kun?"
these are important memories." _1_"kawaikunee, iroke ga nee"
-Full of Memories (1990) 2 "meiwaku da wa!"
***********************************************************************
GReNDeL
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
>Yeah, right. I can see it now.
>Enterprise boarding party materializes inside Macross.
>WORF: "Where are we?"
>WEENIE GUY: "I don't know. But there is a giant piece of tuna here."
>WORF: "Let's take the left corridor."
>Days later...
>WEENIE GUY: "Are we there yet? I have to go to the bathroom!"
>WORF: "I'm sure if we take this corridor, we'll get out"
>WEENIE GUY: "Nope. Not it. I think I'll break this pipe and take a shower!"
>Weeks later...
>WORF: "Mmmm. Never realized human meat was so delicious..."
BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Now, this is what this debate needs more of :)
Come on, we could make a whoel script out of these bits.
(Although anything with Riker would be a porno.....)
Kenji (in exile)
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Dragonmaster Lou wrote:
>>
>> org...@ix.netcom.com(Rick Hunter) wrote:
>>
>> > After seeing these VS threads getting extremely ridiculous (ie Star
>> >Trek characters sleeping with animated Robotech characters just isn't
>> >right) I noted how many people really love these silly VS posts and how
>> >many just hate them. So why not create a NEW newsgroup just dedicated
>> >to VS ideas and threads. I like having fun in newsgroups, but these
>> >threads are seriously going nowhere fast.
>>
>> Well, this is a misc newsgroup. If you don't like vs posts, just
>> ignore them or killfile them. :)
>
>If anything, I'd like to see the Ranma tournament stuff moved to a new group.
> Rec.arts.anime.ranma.tournament. I hate skipping past hundreds of Ranma
>tournament articles just to get to those few scattered between them.
Yeah, and we need to shove these damn Evangalion and Dragonball threads
somewhere else, too. And Conty and Yff need their own groups. And also,
we could...
Kenji (in exile)
>> >In note <Pine.OSF.3.91.96071...@unicorn.it.wsu.edu>, Stephen
>> >Gaisano writes:
>> >>Please don't forget that the Enterprise have a transporter system, and if
>> >>there are a lot of starfleet ships, the SDF-1 will be boarded and
>> >>overwhelmed. Probably the Starfleet boarding party have their own
>> >>portable shields with them and all the Macross population could do is
>> >>shoot bullets.
>> >
>> >Yeah, right. The starfleet dweebs vs a well-trained military force fighting on
>> >their home turf. It'll be a masscre all right. Of the Stardreck forces, that
>> >is....
>>
>> Home turf? The Macross was still fairly alien to it's own crew, while a
>> Star Fleet marine would be familiar with invading a strange ship. But the
>> E-D doesn't have any marines, and would target the bridge, anyway.
>>
>
>
>Enterprise boarding party materializes inside Macross.
>
>WORF: "Where are we?"
>
>WEENIE GUY: "I don't know. But there is a giant piece of tuna here."
>
>WORF: "Let's take the left corridor."
>
>Days later...
>
>WEENIE GUY: "Are we there yet? I have to go to the bathroom!"
>
>WORF: "I'm sure if we take this corridor, we'll get out"
>
>WEENIE GUY: "Nope. Not it. I think I'll break this pipe and take a shower!"
>
>Weeks later...
>
>WORF: "Mmmm. Never realized human meat was so delicious..."
That's surmisable (funny as hell, too), but for some odd reason, the E-D crew
never had problems locating the enemies' bridge... The fact that the Mac's
bridge section is somewhat obvious from the design won't help matters either.
lee chris
In note <31EC6B...@slip.net>, Sir Alby writes:
>> Are the missiles charged in any way? The E-D sucks up millions of
>> debris in warp, the missiles shouldn't bother it any...
>>
>
>As I said earlier, it seems there are two versions of the Enterprise's
>shields. One that can withstand debris at warp and another that get's taken
>down with a few photon torps. I'm using the one they use in combat scenes,
>ie. the one that is relatively weak.
He's correct in a sense. The *missiles* wouldn't bother the E-D any.
Their *exploding warheads* are an entirley diffrent story though..
Sir Alby
>
> and lacked any intelligence be our advanced evolution?????
>
Please don't get me started on this. It's one of the worse episodes of
anything I've ever watched.
Sir Alby
Douglas Jacobs wrote:
>
>
> I don't care how much fire power the Macross can muster...all the
> Enterprise has to do is sit safely out of range and make 'bombing' runs
> at warp 1. If you can't fire weapons at warp, then warp in, fire, warp
> out. The Macross shouldn't even be able to track the Enterprise. I
Okay, various people have said that the Enterprise can just sit out of range and
torpedo the Macross to death. My take on this.
Given that the cute anime babes manning the pinpoint barrier system can block lasers
(we have plenty of evidence for this) and missiles, and since photon torps are not
FTL, then the CAB's (cute anime babes) can easily deflect the torps fired from a
great range. Just think about it. If ships like the Romulan warbird and the
Enterprise can actually dogfight (trek people said this, not me), that must mean that
photon torps and phasers are not that quick.
Okay, so the Enterprise is sitting out of range of the main guns. But fire as many
photon torps as they like, the CAB's just block them all with the pinpoint barriers.
So the Enterprise is eventually going to have to come into range to do anything.
The pinpoint barriers are of sufficient size to block photon torpedos. Just look at
their size relative to the Macross. Even though it looks small, one musn't forget
how large the Macross is. And from various space combat scenes from the TV shows and
movies, one can see the radius of a photon torp blast isn't that great.
So now the Enterprise must come into range of all those nice reflex warheads and
laser cannons. And the main gun.
The Enterprise goes Kaboom.
Peter Choi
In <31ed65ab....@news.novia.net> Yot...@oasis.novia.net (Kenji
(in exile)) writes:
>>>
>>> >Ha, ha, ha !!! You guys all forget we have THE most powerful
weapon on
>>> >board of Macross - our lovely Miss Macross, Lynn Minmay. When
Minmay's
>>> >song is being boardcast to the E-D, the whole crew of E-D will be
sooooooooo
>>> >shock to here something sings in a language besides English and
Klingon,
>>> >the the whole ship will stalled and soon be VAPORIZED (not just
destroyed)
>>> >by the Macross main gun !!!
>>>
>>> They have Riker. Lovely Minmay will be just another notch in the
bedpost.
>>
>>That's if Miria doesn't rip his balls off first!!!!
>>hehe
>
>Riker (in bed, with a cig): How did you say your name... Miriyah
something?
><notch!>
Now we confirm that Riker is the ultimate weapon. The next targets
will be bridge bunnies.... and entire Meltrandi.
P. Tram
>>
>> >dark...@u.washington.edu (B. Hwang) wrote:
>> >
>> >>inertial compenssators!) to handle that speed. Oh, anyone know how many times the speed of light Warp 10 is? I've heard
>> >>it's 10^10*c, but I'm not too sure. - Peter
>> >
>> >Actually, Warp 10 is infinite speed as they gave the warp scale an
>> >exponentially increasing curve.
>>
>
>tantamount to being blasted by a super nova, how can phasers and photon
>torps possible damage it's shields?
>
>Seems to me like the Enterprise actually does something similar to folding,
>in which it travels outside of normal space.
I was always under the impression that the Enterprise's shields were not
necessary during warp. The Enterprise's warp nacelles would create a warp
bubble (that pocket of subspace) and use that to traverse the galaxy.
Since they were not in normal space, the normal laws of physics (including
Einstein's laws of relativity) did not affect them. Since they are not in
normal space, how then would they bump into tiny particles?
Also, aren't the navigational shields (not the combat shields that almost
_always_ go down after a few blasts) used only when the Enterprise is
traveling in normal space? If that were the case, then particles hitting
the shield would not be doing nuclear megaton explosion worth damages to
the shield.
Phuc Tram * DBZ Liberation Front * | ---
son...@becker.u.washington.edu ********************************** | ---
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~songoku/dragonball.html * --- | |
****************************************************************** / ---
* UW Anime Discovery Project ** X-Files * AMS! * BGC * Ranma ** /|\ ---
* ADP Urd Officer = A/V Officer * 3x3 Eyes * MKRE * Taiho * KOCB * | |+|
****************************************************************** | ---
lee chris
In note <31ed7dca....@news.novia.net>, Yot...@oasis.novia.net (Kenji
>lee chris <cl...@envirolink.org> wrote:
>>In note <Pine.OSF.3.91.96071...@unicorn.it.wsu.edu>,
>>Stephen Gaisano writes:
>>>Please don't forget that the Enterprise have a transporter system, and if
>>>there are a lot of starfleet ships, the SDF-1 will be boarded and
>>>overwhelmed. Probably the Starfleet boarding party have their own
>>>portable shields with them and all the Macross population could do is
>>>shoot bullets.
>>
>>Yeah, right. The starfleet dweebs vs a well-trained military force fighting
>>on their home turf. It'll be a masscre all right. Of the Stardreck forces,
>>that is....
>
>Home turf? The Macross was still fairly alien to it's own crew, while a
>Star Fleet marine would be familiar with invading a strange ship. But the
>E-D doesn't have any marines, and would target the bridge, anyway.
You're assuming that the E-D would get the chance to target the bridge. No
way. The E-D crew would so busy trying to cope (trying to keep the E-D from
blowing up as result of the battle damage they substained that is) they
wouldn't have time to target the bridge.
And yes, the Macross forces *would* be fighting on their home turf. The
Macross is their *home*. You can bet that they won't be taking any prisoners
in such a fight.
Dragonmaster Lou
Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> wrote:
>Yeah, you turn into a newt, and have cute little newt babies.
I didn't get that. How the heck was a newt that couldn't even talk
and lacked any intelligence be our advanced evolution?????
---
Douglas Jacobs
chu...@SoCA.com wrote:
: You say the Starfleet boarding party will probably, I repeat, probably, have their own portable shields. Hey,
: let's deal with facts of the programs. If you saw an episode where Starfleet boarding parties had portable
: shields, then it's a sound argument. If not, then it's unsound. As for Macross forces shooting bullets, I seem
: to recall Veritechs having lasers. A military that arms their fighters with lasers will in all probability have
: rifles and hand guns with lasers.
Actually, the few times we see side arms, they seem to be more projectile
(ie. bullets) than energy. The Palladium game series bears this out as
well (for what that's worth...)
Just because the veritechs used lasers doesn't mean the technology exists
to make usable side-arms as well.
To cast my vote in this thread, I'm going to vote for the Enterprise.
I don't care how much fire power the Macross can muster...all the
Enterprise has to do is sit safely out of range and make 'bombing' runs
at warp 1. If you can't fire weapons at warp, then warp in, fire, warp
out. The Macross shouldn't even be able to track the Enterprise. I
agree that the main gun would vaporize the Enterprise...however, how
are you going to convince the Enterprise to stand still for such an
attack? Same arguement for the fold engine...that sort of energy
build up should show up nicely on the Enterprise's scanners. Daedelous
Manuever? I can just see the E's crew reaction to that one...
("Sir, they appear to be trying to punch us...")
Simply overload the barrier, avoid the blast, and you have a nice
unshielded (and low on power?) SDF-1. Blast at will.
As for the Veritechs...well, they're not shielded and their small size would
make them easy prey for something like...the tractor beam!
Use your imagination...think of all the "fun" you can have without using
phasers & photon torpedos.
Dragonmaster Lou
org...@ix.netcom.com(Rick Hunter) wrote:
> After seeing these VS threads getting extremely ridiculous (ie Star
>Trek characters sleeping with animated Robotech characters just isn't
>right) I noted how many people really love these silly VS posts and how
>many just hate them. So why not create a NEW newsgroup just dedicated
>to VS ideas and threads. I like having fun in newsgroups, but these
>threads are seriously going nowhere fast.
Well, this is a misc newsgroup. If you don't like vs posts, just
ignore them or killfile them. :)
---
Dragonmaster Lou
chu...@SoCA.com wrote:
>Riker isn't even a better soldier than Macross' finest female, Miriyia Perina. Miriyia Perina, in her Power
>Armor or red veritech, could easily destroy Riker in his pathetic Fed shuttle. In either veritech battloid
>mode or Power Armor, she could rip open Riker's shttle.
Not fair though, at least compare them in comparable aircraft. :)
James Marken
Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>
> Point 3: Riker will bag every pretty woman on board the Macross :)
> Heck, he's bagged hermaphrodites and holograms... ^o^;;
If he goes after Minmay, I'll beam his testicles into a black hole.
--
_____________________________________________________________
James Marken
jma...@indiana.edu
http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~jmarken/
"The important thing is to ignore data, which complicates life."
-James Watson
_____________________________________________________________
Peter Choi
In <4smf97$p...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> dja...@umich.edu
1. To get in fold....in Macross
Gloval: Engage fold-system, Prepare the shock!
Misa: Fold will be engaged in 5 minutes!
Claudia: Ooops... I'd better get a barfbag...!
2. To make warp speed....in E-D
Picard: Engage!
Data pushes control panel very simply.
(tingling~ E-D diappears. ;D)
Jonnan West
Umm - just FYI - The Photon torpedoes -are- warp capable weapons,
although as I understand it they don't actually have a warp drive but
have a warp sustainer field - i.e. if it's fired at warp it maintains the
warp velocity the ship was in when it was fired (Plus an undefined but
slight amount)
So yes Photon Torps can maintain warp velocity
Jonnan
Jonnan West
B. Hwang (dark...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: I think I'd discount the movie. Earth itself is 5 light MINUTES away from the sun. Pluto is much, much, much further.
: Final Fronteir may be accurate, although as I remember, that was about the very first Enterprise, which probably means
: the Enterprise-D ought to be able to go somewhere around .9c. Ought to have fairly decent shields (not to mention
: inertial compenssators!) to handle that speed. Oh, anyone know how many times the speed of light Warp 10 is? I've heard
: it's 10^10*c, but I'm not too sure. - Peter
Under the current system warp ten is infinite speed.
Sir Alby
James Marken wrote:
>
> Kenji (in exile) wrote:
> >
> > Point 3: Riker will bag every pretty woman on board the Macross :)
> > Heck, he's bagged hermaphrodites and holograms... ^o^;;
>
> If he goes after Minmay, I'll beam his testicles into a black hole.
Wait in line!:)
Actually, Claudia would see Riker as the second coming of Folker and nab
him and force him to eat pineapple salad. The rest of the Macross would
be safe.
Peter Choi
In <31EF33...@slip.net> Sir Alby <al...@slip.net> writes:
>
>James Marken wrote:
>>
>> Kenji (in exile) wrote:
>> >
>> > Point 3: Riker will bag every pretty woman on board the Macross :)
>> > Heck, he's bagged hermaphrodites and holograms... ^o^;;
>>
>> If he goes after Minmay, I'll beam his testicles into a black hole.
>
>Wait in line!:)
>
>Actually, Claudia would see Riker as the second coming of Folker and
nab
>him and force him to eat pineapple salad. The rest of the Macross
would
>be safe.
No, Claudia would be bagged. ;) Then Misa, Banessa, oops I forgot the
names of bridge bunnies. Then finally Milia and Minmay.
Then....finally....finally....
Judge: Send William T. Riker to Runa Phenthe for life!
Douglas Jacobs
Mike Breen (mi...@user1.channel1.com) wrote:
: I think the whole point of this thread isn't only one mecha against
: another, but one universe's tactics against the other. I'm basing all my
: arguements on tactics that have been used in the Macross TV show. Sure,
: the Enterprise is _capable_ of the kind of bombing runs you describe, but,
: I've _never_ seen _any_ Star Fleet ship actually _do_ that. If there's an
: episode (not a first-draft script or book) where they do, please tell me.
#disclaminer - I'm no Trek expert ;)
I seem recall in the few combat scenes I've seen, the ships sort of
fly by each other, with their phasers firing away. This gives me the
impression that ships simply charge at one another, while firing at
their opponent and twisting/dodging to avoid getting shot in senstive
places. The SDF-1, on the other hand, stands relatively still and
tries to pound on their opponents.
Assuming the E-D wants to destroy the SDF-1, surely they'll analyze
their initial movements, and suggest alternatives.
: >Simply overload the barrier, avoid the blast, and you have a nice
: >unshielded (and low on power?) SDF-1. Blast at will.
: You're assuming that the Enterprise somehow _knows_ about the barrior
: overload _and_ its purpose, _and_ its blast radius. In the event of the
: barrior overload, Picard, being Mister Mercy, would more likely than not
: assume that the battle had disabled the Macross and the shield overload was
: something similar to warp core breach. In other words, he'd assume the
: Macross was criticaly damaged and about to explode. He'd hang around and
: attempt to communicate with the Macross asking if they needed any
: assistance, or if they wanted to evacuate the crew onto the Enterprise, all
: the while having _no_ clue as to the overload's true destructive power (and
: I highly doubt that the Enterprise's sensors can predict the power of a
: potental explosion who's cause had never been recorded). Ten seconds
: later, BLAMMY!!!
This would hinge on whether or not the E-D would be able to determine
the blast radius of the impending explosion. Let's say don't. Let's
also say that if the E-D doesn't react fast enough, they'll be destroyed.
However, it was shown in Robotech/Macross that Khyron managed to pilot
his flag ship out of the blast from the shield. Granted, he didn't
get away scot-free. Picard will also not put the E-D into more
danger than he deems neccessary. The shield would blow, the E-D
would asses it as a serious danger, and Picard would order them out of
there. They may lose their shields...they may even take some actual
damage, but I don't think they'll be destroyed.
: _Maybe_ the Enterprise would warp out in time, which could be viewed aboard
: the Macross as a retreat. They'd study the battle and see what they could
: devise to bring down the Enterprise's shields early. The Enterprise, OTHO,
: would assume the Macross had been destroyed in the blast. If they met
: again, the Macross would have the tactial upper hand.
I don't think the E-D would simply assume the Macross was destroyed
after the explosion. After things settle down, they'd pick up the
Macross on their sensors. Assuming this is a battle to the death,
the E-D would observe the Macross from far away and would also
analyze the battle.
: In a battle scenario, you have to assume that neither side knows the
: capibilities of the other. The Macross really has _way_ too many things
: "up its sleeve" for the Enterprise to deal with that the Enterprise
: _dosen't_ know about.
While the Macross has many surprises, the E-D (from the Macross'
point of view) also has many surprises. I don't think either side
is more or less 'surprising' ;)
However, the reason I say the E-D would eventually win is because of
their suprior speed and defenses. The Macross wins hand down
for offensive capability...but unless they can actually score a hit
on the E-D with their main-gun, there's not much else they can do.
Yes, the main gun would surely destroy the E-D...but it's a one-shot
deal. If they miss, or don't completely destroy (or at least severly cripple)
the E-D, they'll be sitting ducks. Same goes for their shield overload
and fold-system...these things drain immense amounts of energy as
shown in the show.
Peter Choi
In <4somro$h...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> dja...@umich.edu
I think sensor arrays of E-D can easily detect the activity of
Macross's main gun. Maybe whole power circuitry in Macross can be read
by sensors... Hmm. and a lot of life signs of civilians.
Ro: Captain! We are attacking a vessel full of civilians!!!
If the captain was Janeway.
Janeway: I don't give a fuck, fire at will!
Peter Choi
In <4sol7i$h...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> dja...@umich.edu
(Douglas Jacobs) writes:
>
>Ming Yau So (min...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: The problem is how do the E-D know the max-firing range of the
Macross main
>: gun (you don't think the Macross will sent them the tech manual
before they
>: fire the gun, right ?) ? Besides, the Macross main gun just doesn't
look
>: like a cannon at all, so it may take the E-D crew some time to
figure it's
>: actual a cannon pointing at them.
>
>I'm not so sure... The E-D crew may never of met up with something
like
>the SDF-1 before, however, what else would a huge power build-up be
>for? Like I said...that's _got_ to show up on the E-D's sensors.
>
>: >As for the Veritechs...well, they're not shielded and their small
size would
>: >make them easy prey for something like...the tractor beam!
>
>
>This assumes that the Valkyries are even a threat to the E-D...this
>seems to be another argument by itself. Assuming they are a threat
>to the E-D (or even if they aren't...) there are still a number of
>things I can think of that don't involve the E-D's primary weapon
>systems. The tractor-beam would probably crush a Valkyrie..if not,
>hey...you have a large particle you can acclerate (eg. 'throw' the
>fighter back at the SDF-1) Seeing as how modifiable the E-D's
>systems are, maybe Geordi could use his visor to modify the tractor
>beam into a dispersed 'tractor field' ;) which wouldn't be as strong
as
>the tractor beam, but would be spread over a wider area. Then there's
>the transporters... Beam the pilots from the planes onto the E-D.
>Beam the planes somewhere away from the battle. Beam the missiles
fired at
>the E-D to face the SDF-1. (I don't know enough about the
transporters
>to know if that last one would be possible...)
>
>I think the E-D would win through creative measures...not brute force
>ones.
You are right. Whole structures and systems of Macross are very
static, but those of E-D are surely not. Even crews doesn't.
Keith Morrison
Ming Yau So wrote:
> The problem is how do the E-D know the max-firing range of the Macross main
> gun (you don't think the Macross will sent them the tech manual before they
> fire the gun, right ?) ? Besides, the Macross main gun just doesn't look
> like a cannon at all, so it may take the E-D crew some time to figure it's
> actual a cannon pointing at them.
"Sir, the enemy ship is aligning facing us and the big thingie in the front
is sort of glowing."
"Move us beside the enemy."
ZAP
"Hmm, nice fireworks. Would have been a shame had it hit us. Ah well,
return fire."
> >As for the Veritechs...well, they're not shielded and their small size would
> >make them easy prey for something like...the tractor beam!
>
> There are just too many Valkyries to be dealt with.
"Sir, dozens of enemy fighter aircraft are closing!"
"Status?"
"Lasers cannot penetrate the shields. Their missiles are not causing
detectable weakening. Sir, they are attempting to penetrate the
shields!"
*smack* *smack* *crunch* *pop* *smack*
"Ah, they *attempted* to penetrate the shields."
--
Keith Morrison
t0...@unb.ca