Starfleet Intelligence Rank
Captain BSL
Sloan is a director, are there anymore canon/speculative intel ranks?
Timo S Saloniemi
>HI, all. Does anyone have any info about Intelligence rank? I know that
>Sloan is a director, are there anymore canon/speculative intel ranks?
"Sloan" is NOT a director in Starfleet Intelligence. He's a secret
operative of unknown rank in a largely unknown organization called
Section 31, an agent who once posed as "deputy director" of Starfleet
Intelligence Internal Investigations division, IIRC. Perhaps the
writers were hunting for associations, and "deputy director" sounded
more like "assistant director Skinner", another character of unknown
allegiances.
"Deputy director" isn't a rank, anyway. It is a position that can be
held by people of various ranks. Starfleet Intelligence probably often
employs in this position people who wear insignia consisting of four
pips and a long bar underneath - "Sloan" wore those and nobody seemed
to think of this as improper for his cover identity (actually, Bashir
was the only one to see "Sloan" in reality, but even he should have known
which insignia are used in Starfleet and which are not). But we do not
know what rank those insignia signify.
Even then, we can deduce the rank is higher than or at least as high as
Captain, which is four pips (more brass = higher rank, eh?). Almost
certainly this is lower than flag ranks, which have a separate squarish
background plate for the pips. Real military organizations do not have
ranks that would fall between Captain and the lowest flag rank, so
this rank either is imaginary (Trek does have some other imaginary
ranks like Fleet Captain), or then it does not actually differ from
Captain. "Sloan" might have impersonated a Captain who just wore that
long bar to signify his Internal Investigations status.
The strange bar cannot be something worn by all Starfleet Intelligence
personnel, since we have seen Intelligence-related Admirals beginning
with TNG "The Pegasus", where I believe Adm. Blackwell was said to
represent that organization. Blackwell's insignia were simple Vice Admiral
ones, without an added bar. Perhaps the bar is worn by SF Intel Internal
Investigations exclusively, or then all brances have their own Internal
Investigations departments. It would be strange indeed for Starfleet
to place its IntInv solely in the hands of Intelligence division, which
is a spying organization - Security division, which is more of a policing
organization, would be a far more logical choice. Or Accounting
division, for that matter ("Sloan" could be "Deputy Chief Comptroller"
then if he wished).
Anyway, since we have seen a SF Intel Adm. (Blackwell), I'd wager all
the other standard ranks from Ensign to Fleet Admiral could be represented
in the Intelligence organization. Or then there could be a minimum rank
for SF Intel assignments, perhaps from Commander up or something. It's
unlikely that SF Intel would employ enlisted crew (or if it did employ,
say, Engineering crewmen in covert ops, those would not be on SF Intel
payroll as enlisteds - they'd get officer pay or special fees for their
cloak-and-dagger stuff in addition to their regular Engineering pay).
Intel might also extensively employ civilian experts; but we have seen
that Sciences usually makes officers out of its researchers, so perhaps
civilian experts in the field of intelligence would also get officer
pips?
Timo Saloniemi
Jonah Rapp
I favor the explanation that the bar denotes the rank of Fleet Captain -- which does exist,
almost exclusively in conversation, though. It's a way of specifying an officer who holds a
rank of the line, but works as a staff officer (adjutant, deputy director, personal
assistant, secretary, whatever). So a Fleet Captain would be a Captain who works a desk job
in some Admiral's office. Perfect for a deputy director of Starfleet Intelligence. And the
bar would be there so people would know he's a staff officer and possibly not the most
qualified to take command of a ship in an emergency, regardless of rank or seniority.
> The strange bar cannot be something worn by all Starfleet Intelligence
> personnel, since we have seen Intelligence-related Admirals beginning
> with TNG "The Pegasus", where I believe Adm. Blackwell was said to
> represent that organization.
Rear Admiral Eric Pressman. And Admirals don't need the bar because they're already staff
officers.
> Anyway, since we have seen a SF Intel Adm. (Blackwell), I'd wager all
> the other standard ranks from Ensign to Fleet Admiral could be represented
> in the Intelligence organization.
I would stop at the four-pip full Admiral. the five-pip Fleet Admiral quite possibly only
exists in time of war (as with contemporary militaries), and even if not, I'd suggest that
only the Commander, Starfleet, holds the rank of Fleet Admiral.
> Or then there could be a minimum rank
> for SF Intel assignments, perhaps from Commander up or something. It's
> unlikely that SF Intel would employ enlisted crew (or if it did employ,
> say, Engineering crewmen in covert ops, those would not be on SF Intel
> payroll as enlisteds - they'd get officer pay or special fees for their
> cloak-and-dagger stuff in addition to their regular Engineering pay).
> Intel might also extensively employ civilian experts; but we have seen
> that Sciences usually makes officers out of its researchers, so perhaps
> civilian experts in the field of intelligence would also get officer
> pips?
Officer equivalency, as with the CIA (Jack Ryan, anyone?). But I do think SI has personnel
in the lower ranks, too, just not a lot. I postulate that SI operates isolated border
listening posts, where crypto-techs, and strike teams would serve. No enlisted rates,
though. Small installations, and I don't know if SI would trust anyone who hadn't gone
through the Academy with that sort of assignment...
--Jonah
Timo S Saloniemi
>I favor the explanation that the bar denotes the rank of Fleet Captain
>-- which does exist, almost exclusively in conversation, though. It's
>a way of specifying an officer who holds a rank of the line, but works
>as a staff officer (adjutant, deputy director, personal assistant,
>secretary, whatever). So a Fleet Captain would be a Captain who works
>a desk job in some Admiral's office. Perfect for a deputy director of
>Starfleet Intelligence.
I find this appealing as well. I didn't know that about Fleet Captains -
I must have heard it here before, but I really didn't remember any of
it. Damn. And thanks.
>And the bar would be there so people would know he's a staff officer
>and possibly not the most qualified to take command of a ship in an
>emergency, regardless of rank or seniority.
More brass means diminished competence? Hmm. Perhaps the bar is intended
to be worn as a "strike-through" line that "negates" the pips, and
Sloan's cover identity just prefers to wear it the way we saw it when
his superiors aren't watching? :-)
>> The strange bar cannot be something worn by all Starfleet Intelligence
>> personnel, since we have seen Intelligence-related Admirals beginning
>> with TNG "The Pegasus", where I believe Adm. Blackwell was said to
>> represent that organization.
>Rear Admiral Eric Pressman. And Admirals don't need the bar because
>they're already staff officers.
Blackwell was the female three-pipper contacted by Picard through his
viewscreen... although now that I think of it, I cannot be sure whether
Blackwell was of Intelligence or Security. Pressman originally arrived
under the auspices of SF Intel, and this was the authority that
diverted the E-D to the rendezvous - but later Pressman says the
Chief of SF Security is backing him fully. I *think* Blackwell was
of the former organization, and that the Chief of SF Security was
the off-screen (female) admiral whose name I chronically forget.
In any case, Blackwell wore the regular black-cuffed, red admiral's
duty uniform with no special insignia. And yes, I like your idea of
the bar denoting a special "parallel" rank more than the idea that
the bar denotes a special organization within Starfleet, whether
this be SF Intel or SF Intel IntInv.
>> Anyway, since we have seen a SF Intel Adm. (Blackwell), I'd wager all
>> the other standard ranks from Ensign to Fleet Admiral could be represented
>> in the Intelligence organization.
>I would stop at the four-pip full Admiral. the five-pip Fleet Admiral
>quite possibly only exists in time of war (as with contemporary
>militaries), and even if not, I'd suggest that only the Commander,
>Starfleet, holds the rank of Fleet Admiral.
Agreed - I was just including a theoretical maximum rank. And ignoring
the fact that we have already seen three officers called Fleet Admirals
in the TNG/DS9 era, all wearing three pips!
Timo Saloniemi
Love...@aol.com
bsc...@netsgo.com writes:
> HI, all. Does anyone have any info about Intelligence rank? I know that
> Sloan is a director, are there anymore canon/speculative intel ranks?
sloan is not in the intelligence *community* in that Section31 is not
answerable to any official starfleet or federation authority
far as we can tell...Starfleet Intelligence has the same ranking structure as
regular SF.... for those times when they have to use their ranks.. i imagine
that undercover and field agents dont wear pips while on assignment
----------
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Starfleet Internal Affairs (SIA)
Starbase 001
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wing...@penn.com
>> Anyway, since we have seen a SF Intel Adm. (Blackwell), I'd wager all
>> the other standard ranks from Ensign to Fleet Admiral could be represented
>> in the Intelligence organization.
>
> I would stop at the four-pip full Admiral. the five-pip Fleet Admiral quite
> possibly only
> exists in time of war (as with contemporary militaries), and even if not,
> I'd suggest that
> only the Commander, Starfleet, holds the rank of Fleet Admiral.
===========================================
I seem to recall from an earlier thread, "RANK IN STAR TREK", that Fleet
Admirals have been shown/mentioned in at least one, possibly more episodes
of TNG.
Jonah Rapp
> In article <38028878...@usa.net> Jonah Rapp <j.r...@usa.net> writes:
>
> >I favor the explanation that the bar denotes the rank of Fleet Captain
> >-- which does exist, almost exclusively in conversation, though. It's
> >a way of specifying an officer who holds a rank of the line, but works
> >as a staff officer (adjutant, deputy director, personal assistant,
> >secretary, whatever). So a Fleet Captain would be a Captain who works
> >a desk job in some Admiral's office. Perfect for a deputy director of
> >Starfleet Intelligence.
>
> I find this appealing as well. I didn't know that about Fleet Captains -
> I must have heard it here before, but I really didn't remember any of
> it. Damn. And thanks.
>
> >And the bar would be there so people would know he's a staff officer
> >and possibly not the most qualified to take command of a ship in an
> >emergency, regardless of rank or seniority.
>
> More brass means diminished competence? Hmm. Perhaps the bar is intended
> to be worn as a "strike-through" line that "negates" the pips, and
> Sloan's cover identity just prefers to wear it the way we saw it when
> his superiors aren't watching? :-)
Not diminished competance -- just, say, the Star Trek equivalent of specialist
markings. So the mess that happened in "Disaster" doesn't happen again. I can
explain to those who don't get the reference.
> >> The strange bar cannot be something worn by all Starfleet Intelligence
> >> personnel, since we have seen Intelligence-related Admirals beginning
> >> with TNG "The Pegasus", where I believe Adm. Blackwell was said to
> >> represent that organization.
>
> >Rear Admiral Eric Pressman. And Admirals don't need the bar because
> >they're already staff officers.
>
> Blackwell was the female three-pipper contacted by Picard through his
> viewscreen... although now that I think of it, I cannot be sure whether
> Blackwell was of Intelligence or Security. Pressman originally arrived
> under the auspices of SF Intel, and this was the authority that
> diverted the E-D to the rendezvous - but later Pressman says the
> Chief of SF Security is backing him fully. I *think* Blackwell was
> of the former organization, and that the Chief of SF Security was
> the off-screen (female) admiral whose name I chronically forget.
>
> In any case, Blackwell wore the regular black-cuffed, red admiral's
> duty uniform with no special insignia. And yes, I like your idea of
> the bar denoting a special "parallel" rank more than the idea that
> the bar denotes a special organization within Starfleet, whether
> this be SF Intel or SF Intel IntInv.
Ack. I need to watch "The Pegasus" again...
> >> Anyway, since we have seen a SF Intel Adm. (Blackwell), I'd wager all
> >> the other standard ranks from Ensign to Fleet Admiral could be represented
> >> in the Intelligence organization.
>
> >I would stop at the four-pip full Admiral. the five-pip Fleet Admiral
> >quite possibly only exists in time of war (as with contemporary
> >militaries), and even if not, I'd suggest that only the Commander,
> >Starfleet, holds the rank of Fleet Admiral.
>
> Agreed - I was just including a theoretical maximum rank. And ignoring
> the fact that we have already seen three officers called Fleet Admirals
> in the TNG/DS9 era, all wearing three pips!
I retconned that to Admiral of the Fleet.
--Jonah
Ryan McReynolds
they're the officers in charge of each given numbered fleet. Therefore,
it's a position, not a rank. And Fleet Captains would thus logically be the
senior/assistant Captain under the Admiral, basically as Capt. Sisko served
under V. Adm. Ross during the Second Occupation.
--
-=Ryan McReynolds=-
Jonah Rapp <j.r...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:380E334B...@usa.net...
Admiral Korel
speculation:
>they're the officers in charge of each given numbered fleet. Therefore,
>it's a position, not a rank. And Fleet Captains would thus logically be
the
>senior/assistant Captain under the Admiral, basically as Capt. Sisko served
>under V. Adm. Ross during the Second Occupation.
Perhaps, also, F. Adm. can be held by heads of Starfleet's branches - I
can't picture Nechayev commanding a fleet, but she'd certainly make sense as
a regional head of SF Ops or something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"It's like the laws of physics just went out the window."
"And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient!"
Love...@aol.com
djar...@law.tulane.edu writes:
> > the scheme that makes the best explaination for a fleet captain (last
known
> > used in tos for retired-christopher-pike-in-a-chair, no idea of how the
> rank
> > was denoted) is 4.5 pips, especially if a commodore is 5 pips.... i
> > personally subscribe to a 5-pipped commoddore and a 1-boxpipped admiral
as
> > being nearly parallel in rank, but with the 5-pips slight less and
> signifying
> > a rise tru the fleet ranks, while the 1-boxpipped admiral got his rank by
> > riding only desks...
>
> This is 1) unnecessarily complicated, 2) unsubstantiated by anything we've
> seenand 3) totally in conflict with real-world practice. What seems more
> likely
> to me
> is that Fleet Captains were the one-star (O-7) grade in the TOS era,
> Commodores
> the two-star (O-8) grade, whereas now they've gone to having both of these
> designated as Rear Admirals (Lower or Upper Half), since we've seen
neither
> in
> the 24th century.
well.... 1, its not all that complicated.....and 2, its also NOT unsupported
by anythign seen.... in other words, just because we have not seen a rank
called "commodore" or "fleet captian" ...especially in tng+ ....does not mean
they do not exist and 3, i dont know about real world practice, i only know
about ST-world practice.... }:PPPP
----------
LR
GOW Extrodinaire
Steve Pugh
>well.... 1, its not all that complicated.....
It introduces more ranks than any existing Navy has ever needed in
order to function. Do you think that Starfleet, existing in the
efficient, egalitarian 24th century needs more ranks in order to
function than any terrestrial Navy?
Steve
--
"And all I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by."
"Though a cloaking device, pulsed phaser cannons
and a full load of quantum torpedoes would be quite nice too."
Steve Pugh <st...@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/fleet/>
Timo S Saloniemi
>On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:59:58 EDT, Love...@aol.com wrote:
>>well.... 1, its not all that complicated.....
>It introduces more ranks than any existing Navy has ever needed in
>order to function. Do you think that Starfleet, existing in the
>efficient, egalitarian 24th century needs more ranks in order to
>function than any terrestrial Navy?
On the other hand, there hasn't been much streamlining of the rank
and rating system. Admittedly it seems quite unlikely that there
would be warrant officers, when essentially "civilian" science
specialists are given full officer commissions. But for example
the enlisted rating system seems pretty much intact: O'Brien's
chevron-and-dot insignum very strongly suggests three Petty Officer
rates and three or more CPO rates, and the title of Simon Tarses in
"The Drumhead" suggests multiple Crewman rates as well. And all the
usual officer ranks are of course canonically accounted for, except
for one- and five-pip flag officers.
I agree that if one wanted to change the system, streamlining instead
of expanding would be the way to go. I also agree that the Federation
society would be interested in such streamlining. Since no such thing
has taken place, it very much seems as if *tradition* is the *only*
thing holding the Feds back. And thus there is little or no room for
the introduction of new ranks and practices, since they would go
against this tradition.
Timo Saloniemi
Jonah Rapp
> >With regard to the Fleet Admiral designation, I'm all for LUG's speculation:
> >they're the officers in charge of each given numbered fleet. Therefore,
> >it's a position, not a rank. And Fleet Captains would thus logically be the
> >senior/assistant Captain under the Admiral, basically as Capt. Sisko served
> >under V. Adm. Ross during the Second Occupation.
>
> Perhaps, also, F. Adm. can be held by heads of Starfleet's branches - I
> can't picture Nechayev commanding a fleet, but she'd certainly make sense as
> a regional head of SF Ops or something.
I never heard her referred to as "Fleet Admiral". It was always "Vice-Admiral"
if it was anything beyond the simple "Admiral" commonly used to address ANYone
of flag rank. The only "Fleet Admiral" I remember clearly was Shanthi, who wore
Vice-Admiral boxes.
--Jonah
Admiral Korel
>> can't picture Nechayev commanding a fleet,
>
Ah, but she wasn't in /permanent/ command of them - she kind of seems to
have taken over Hanson's role as "chief Borg-dealing-with person", and that
was more the context in this case. She simply feels more like a Head of
Somethingorother than a fleet CO.
David L. Jaroslav
> > Agreed - I was just including a theoretical maximum rank. And ignoring
> > the fact that we have already seen three officers called Fleet Admirals
> > in the TNG/DS9 era, all wearing three pips!
>
> I retconned that to Admiral of the Fleet.
Retconned what to Admiral of the Fleet? Three-pip insignia, when four pips
would be Admiral? That makes no sense, given that Admiral of the Fleet
is merely the Commonwealth term for what the US calls Fleet Admiral, namely
a five-star grade.
We've heard Fleet Admiral used, so starting to talk about Admiral of the Fleet
adds yet more unnecessary confusion and, at least in my mind, starts conjuring
images from HMS Pinafore. What's next, Starfleet Sub-Lieutenants (pronounced
LEFF-tenant, of course)?! Oh, I know, let's bring in the most confusing and
rbitrary
system of all, Commonwealth air force ranks! (OTOH, there's actually something
susprisingly appropriate to the SF context about Group Captains, Squadron Leaders,
Vice-Commodores and Air Chief Marshals, etc.)
--
Dave J.
Jonah Rapp
> Jonah Rapp wrote:
>
> > Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
> >
> > > In article <38028878...@usa.net> Jonah Rapp <j.r...@usa.net> writes:
> > >
> > > >I would stop at the four-pip full Admiral. the five-pip Fleet Admiral
> > > >quite possibly only exists in time of war (as with contemporary
> > > >militaries), and even if not, I'd suggest that only the Commander,
> > > >Starfleet, holds the rank of Fleet Admiral.
> > >
> > > Agreed - I was just including a theoretical maximum rank. And ignoring
> > > the fact that we have already seen three officers called Fleet Admirals
> > > in the TNG/DS9 era, all wearing three pips!
> >
> > I retconned that to Admiral of the Fleet.
>
> Retconned what to Admiral of the Fleet? Three-pip insignia, when four pips
> would be Admiral?
Nooo, the reference to a Vice-Admiral as "Fleet Admiral" instead of "Vice-Admiral".
The retcon was to explain that they were the Admiral in charge of a fleet, and not the
Commander, Starfleet.
> That makes no sense, given that Admiral of the Fleet
> is merely the Commonwealth term for what the US calls Fleet Admiral, namely
> a five-star grade.
I didn't know that was the British term, else I wouldn't have used it. Back to the ol'
drawing board...
> We've heard Fleet Admiral used, so starting to talk about Admiral of the Fleet
> adds yet more unnecessary confusion and, at least in my mind, starts conjuring
> images from HMS Pinafore. What's next, Starfleet Sub-Lieutenants (pronounced
> LEFF-tenant, of course)?! Oh, I know, let's bring in the most confusing and
> arbitrary
> system of all, Commonwealth air force ranks! (OTOH, there's actually something
> susprisingly appropriate to the SF context about Group Captains, Squadron Leaders,
> Vice-Commodores and Air Chief Marshals, etc.)
Oh, stop.
--Jonah
Timo S Saloniemi
>> Perhaps, also, F. Adm. can be held by heads of Starfleet's branches - I
>> can't picture Nechayev commanding a fleet,
>She commanded a detachment of three ships in "Descent."
Also, commanding a fleet can be synonymous to being in charge of a
certain operational theater. Nechayev could be exclusively in charge
of the stretch of UFP-Cardassian border that includes the most
contested Maquis areas. She would only briefly visit DS9 when
the Maquis affair forced her to, while Bill Ross would be in overall
charge of the Bajor sector.
Also, if Nechayev was only in charge of a specific "mission", in
lack of a better word (say, DMZ management or Cardassian relations),
"Descent" would not make sense. But the region of space under attack
from Lorified Borg in "Descent" could coincide with Nechayev's "area
of responsibility" if it is defined by spatial location and not
by "mission".
One could perhaps take on the hobby of assigning the majority of
three-pip Admirals in TNG or DS9 a certain fleet and region - Leyton
could have been in charge of the 3rd Fleet protecting Earth, explaining
how he had that much local power in "Homefront/Paradise Lost", for
example. Bajor sector seemed to have a couple of competing three-pippers,
though, beginning with Chekote, then with two or three appearances of
Rollman, then moving to Ross, and ultimately claiming that it had been
Ross all along who backed up Sisko and thus presumably presided over the
region from "Emissary" on.
Not all three-pippers need be "Fleet Admirals", of course. Some
might have "management" tasks having nothing to do with specific
fleets or regions of space. But the ones explicitly called "Fleet
Admirals" could all have been in charge of a specific fleet. Shanthi
gets a mention in "The Pegasus" IIRC, connecting nicely with her
earlier appearance in "Redemption" that also concerned interaction
with Romulans - perhaps she was in charge of the fleet at the
Romulan border, and of a stretch of that border?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>Admiral Korel wrote:
>> Perhaps, also, F. Adm. can be held by heads of Starfleet's branches - I
>> can't picture Nechayev commanding a fleet, but she'd certainly make
>> sense as a regional head of SF Ops or something.
>I never heard her referred to as "Fleet Admiral". It was always
>"Vice-Admiral" if it was anything beyond the simple "Admiral" commonly
>used to address ANYone of flag rank. The only "Fleet Admiral" I remember
>clearly was Shanthi, who wore Vice-Admiral boxes.
I believe Nechayev was explicitly called Fleet Admiral in "Journey's End"
and Vice Admiral in "The Maquis pt I", with no explicit rank given in
"Descent". I remember wondering about an apparent demotion between
"Journey's End" and "The Maquis". I didn't have the TNG ep on tape,
so I couldn't check the pips, and the thing bothered me for quite a while.
Timo Saloniemi
Love...@aol.com
st...@pugh.net writes:
> On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:59:58 EDT, Love...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> >well.... 1, its not all that complicated.....
>
> It introduces more ranks than any existing Navy has ever needed in
> order to function. Do you think that Starfleet, existing in the
> efficient, egalitarian 24th century needs more ranks in order to
> function than any terrestrial Navy?
actually, my system does NOT *introduce* more ranks.... my system simply
*incorporates* existing CANON ranks.....
fleet captains existed in TOS (christopher pike in "menagerie")... as well as
a slew of commodores.....
now, simply because we have not heard of either rank in TNG+ does not mean
that they do not exist.... sooo.... captains 4-pips, fleet caps 4.5 pips,
commos 5 pips... very smooth
ok ok ok... to be fair... the 5 pipped tng+ commodore rank was seen in shane
johnson's starlog's "tng technical journal" supplimental books (along with
the .5 pipped "ensign jg")
ok ok ok,... to be even more fair.... *i* DID *introduce* the 3.5 pipped "lt
capt/capt jg/ deputy capt".... tipping hats to (in order) "deputy captain
derek wildstar of *starblazers*", and "david weber's *honor harrington*
series"... ... ONE added rank....seeesh!
btw.. i asked this before, but since weber's HH star-navy seems to be
modeled off the british royal navy, is there really a junior grade captain
rank?
OOO commander
OOOo captain jg
OOOO captain
OOOOo fleet captain
OOOOO commodore
as for the OOOO (4-pips-over-bar) pin that "director" sloan wore in one
disguise, i would rather it be an *equivalency* rank..... a way of granting
to a "non-career officer" authority equivalent to a certain rank, in this
case "equiv-captain".... perhaps indicating that "no, he did not go to the
academy, but his skills are so special that we are granting him the same
authority as a captain, and in the abscence of any other 4-pipper he can take
control....."....?
Steve Pugh
>In a message dated 10/25/1999 12:20:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>st...@pugh.net writes:
>
>> On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:59:58 EDT, Love...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> >well.... 1, its not all that complicated.....
>>
>> It introduces more ranks than any existing Navy has ever needed in
>> order to function. Do you think that Starfleet, existing in the
>> efficient, egalitarian 24th century needs more ranks in order to
>> function than any terrestrial Navy?
>
>actually, my system does NOT *introduce* more ranks....
Oh yes it does. It adds two ranks between Captain and One-Star
Admirals.
>my system simply *incorporates* existing CANON ranks.....
>
>fleet captains existed in TOS (christopher pike in "menagerie")... as well as
>a slew of commodores.....
But was Fleet Captain a rank or a position? As we couldn't see Pike's
sleeve cuffs we couldn't see his rank insignia. It could easily be a
position.
After all Fleet Admirals have worn ordinary three and four star
Admiral insignia. (Which means that Fleet Admiral can't be a five star
flag officer as it is in the USN.)
And what's the evidence that Commodores aren't the one-star flag rank?
As we've never met a Rear Admiral (lower half) in Trek we have no
evidence that that particular terminology is used. And as we've never
met a one-star flag officer in TNG+ we don't know whether they're
called Commodores or something else.
>now, simply because we have not heard of either rank in TNG+ does not mean
>that they do not exist....
Yep.
>sooo.... captains 4-pips, fleet caps 4.5 pips,
>commos 5 pips... very smooth
sooo.... captains 4-pips, fleet caps 4 pips, Commodores 1 pip Admiral.
No additional ranks added.
>btw.. i asked this before, but since weber's HH star-navy seems to be
>modeled off the british royal navy, is there really a junior grade captain
>rank?
No, there isn't. There is (sort of) in the Russian Navy.
>OOO commander
>OOOo captain jg
>OOOO captain
>OOOOo fleet captain
>OOOOO commodore
So now you've added three additional ranks.
0-1 Ensign
0-2 Lieutenant JG
0-3 Lieutenant
0-4 Lieutenant-Commander
0-5 Commander
O-6 Captain
O-7 Commodore (Rear Admiral lower half in the USN)
0-8 Rear Admiral
0-9 Vice Admiral
0-10 Admiral
0-11 Admiral of the Starfleet (Fleet Admiral in the USN)
O-7 and O-11 are the only two officer ranks that we haven't seen in
TNG+.
You're adding a rank between O-5 and 0-6 and two ranks betwen 0-6 and
0-7. If the USN or the RN can function with 11 (10 most of the time)
officer ranks, why does Starfleet need 14?
Admiral Korel
>might have "management" tasks having nothing to do with specific
>fleets or regions of space. But the ones explicitly called "Fleet
>Admirals" could all have been in charge of a specific fleet. Shanthi
>gets a mention in "The Pegasus" IIRC, connecting nicely with her
>earlier appearance in "Redemption" that also concerned interaction
>with Romulans - perhaps she was in charge of the fleet at the
>Romulan border, and of a stretch of that border?
Okay, assuming that five-pippers do exist and that they are not called
"Fleet Admirals", what would they be called? Preferably something other than
"Grand Admiral", which just sounds too, well, grand.
David L. Jaroslav
Love...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/25/1999 12:20:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> st...@pugh.net writes:
>
> > On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:59:58 EDT, Love...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > >well.... 1, its not all that complicated.....
> >
> > It introduces more ranks than any existing Navy has ever needed in
> > order to function. Do you think that Starfleet, existing in the
> > efficient, egalitarian 24th century needs more ranks in order to
> > function than any terrestrial Navy?
>
> actually, my system does NOT *introduce* more ranks.... my system simply
> *incorporates* existing CANON ranks.....
>
> fleet captains existed in TOS (christopher pike in "menagerie")... as well as
> a slew of commodores.....
But Fleet Captain was never established to be a rank, and could just as
easily(and far more logically) be a position.
> now, simply because we have not heard of either rank in TNG+ does not mean
> that they do not exist.... sooo.... captains 4-pips, fleet caps 4.5 pips,
> commos 5 pips... very smooth
Giving a Captain a half-pip (or a half stripe in the real world) is
demeaning.Going back all the way to the Age of Sail, a promotion for a Captain
meant
an entitlement to flag rank, and to thus to its different system of insignia.
Moreover, giving Commodores ordinary pips symbolically places them with
their juniors, despite the fact that they've always been flag officers. A
commodore (small "c") is the commanding officer of a squadron of two or
more ships, hence, more like the position of admiral (someone who commands
a fleet) than that of a captain (who commands a ship).
> ok ok ok... to be fair... the 5 pipped tng+ commodore rank was seen in shane
> johnson's starlog's "tng technical journal" supplimental books (along with
> the .5 pipped "ensign jg")
5-pipped Commodores are nowhere near as bad conceptually as "Ensign, J.G."Don't
even get me started on this one.
> ok ok ok,... to be even more fair.... *i* DID *introduce* the 3.5 pipped "lt
> capt/capt jg/ deputy capt".... tipping hats to (in order) "deputy captain
> derek wildstar of *starblazers*", and "david weber's *honor harrington*
> series"... ... ONE added rank....seeesh!
Deputy Captain sounds sufficiently distinct that, if a 4.5 pip grade was toexist
(which I don't think it would or should, but IF it did), then it seems
a reasonable name for it. "Lt. Captain," OTOH, has serious problems
with it that, perhaps, requires an understanding of early military and naval
history to be conscious of.
The basic military units (company, regiment, field army) appeared gradually.
The oldest is the company, which really does go back into the mists of the
dark ages and could be something inherited in part from the Roman century,
but suffice it to say
that there were companies in the 15th century, well before anything
describable as a professional army existed. In the Hundred Years' War,
for instance, there were soldiers, there was someone in command of the
whole army, and really the only officers between them were the captains
of each company. But sometimes, the captain had to go away for some
reason, and a more junior officer held his place; he stood in lieu of the
captain, hence, lieutenant. As armies became professional and companies
became standing institutions, this was more and more true and sometimes
the lieutenant also had others responsibilities elsewhere; thus, another
officer appeared to step into his shoes, a second lieutenant. The origin
of the rank of lieutenant is from "lieutenant-captain," so using that as a
higher rank muddies the issue and loses sight of the old rank's heritage.
This development occurred similarly at higher levels. The deputy officer
of the standing regiments forming out of standing companies was the lieutenant-
colonel; answering to the commanding officer of the army as whole (early on,
often the king) was the lieutenant-general.
Now transpose this to the far less specialized and smaller hierarchy of a ship
in the navy. Although a naval Captain ranks alongside an army Colonel, the rank
IS Captain, and the officers and men aboard ARE the ship's company, not her
regiment. Until the mid-19th century, there were only a few types of officers
below the complexities in the admiralty: Captains and Lieutenants were definitely
officers; Midshipmen were gentlemen and certainly above a ship's petty officers,
but did not actually hold a commission. And, just as in a company ashore, the
word lieutenant comes from a contraction of lieutenant-captain.
To round this summary out, majors (from captain-major, the senior company
commander in a regiment after the lieutenant-colonel) emerged around sometime
just before 1700, and commanders (of ships smaller than ships of the line) some
time thereafter.
> as for the OOOO (4-pips-over-bar) pin that "director" sloan wore in one
> disguise, i would rather it be an *equivalency* rank..... a way of granting
> to a "non-career officer" authority equivalent to a certain rank, in this
> case "equiv-captain".... perhaps indicating that "no, he did not go to the
> academy, but his skills are so special that we are granting him the same
> authority as a captain, and in the abscence of any other 4-pipper he can take
> control....."
The problem with that is the absurd assumption implied by TPTB severaltimes in
the 24th century that all Starfleet officers went to the Academy. In the
real world, most officers did not. Getting a commission from ROTC or OCS,
or as a direct appointee, makes you no less an officer of that rank. "Director"
sounds like an office as much as a rank, and I can even offer a real-world
analogy: the deputy director of the US National Security Agency is always a
US Air Force officer. Numerous other agencies (especially civilian agencies
within the Defense Department) have military officers among their staff. That
means they can be addressed as "director" or "commissioner" or "secretary"
or whatever, but that doesn't replace their rank.
Myself, I'd LIKE the bar to mean staff officer, but since we've never seen
it before and most officers are staff officers rather than line officers, it
clearly
doesn't mean that.
--
Dave J.
Jonah Rapp
> >Not all three-pippers need be "Fleet Admirals", of course. Some
> >might have "management" tasks having nothing to do with specific
> >fleets or regions of space. But the ones explicitly called "Fleet
> >Admirals" could all have been in charge of a specific fleet. Shanthi
> >gets a mention in "The Pegasus" IIRC, connecting nicely with her
> >earlier appearance in "Redemption" that also concerned interaction
> >with Romulans - perhaps she was in charge of the fleet at the
> >Romulan border, and of a stretch of that border?
>
> Okay, assuming that five-pippers do exist and that they are not called
> "Fleet Admirals", what would they be called? Preferably something other than
> "Grand Admiral", which just sounds too, well, grand.
I think "Admiral of the Fleet" works...
--Jonah
Timo S Saloniemi
Well, in TOS one had admirals with more brass on them than Kirk ever wore.
AFAIK, these were never really called "Fleet Admirals", but *were*
addressed as "Admirals", which pretty much specifies what we can and
cannot use as their official rank title. There were more than one of
these in active service at a time (Cartwright wears this "extended
Admiral" insignum from STIV to STVI, while Bennett wears it in STV),
so that again tells us something about the status of these "extended
Admirals" vs. today's five-star officers. And I think we can assume
that the position, title and practices related to "extended Admirals"
did survive from TOS to TNG unless otherwise proven.
From here on, it's pure speculation. Many books have already called
the "extended Admirals" "Fleet Admirals", but AFAIK there is no canon
requirement for that. I'd prefer either your "Grand Admiral" or,
in a reconciliatory move, "Admiral of Starfleet" which could tie
in to the rank used in the books.
So the flag ranks in my interpretation would go:
rank TNG TOS movie TMP, TOS Example
Commodore [o] 1-arrowhead pip # Decker
Rear Admiral [oo] 2-ah pip #| Kirk TMP
Vice Admiral [ooo] 3-ah pip #|| Nechayev
Admiral [oooo] 4-ah pip #||| Kirk STII
Admiral of SF [ooooo] 4-ah pip + ring #|||* Morrow
(about half of the insignia are canonically seen in the
various shows)
And "Fleet Admiral" would be a title given to any of the above
when in command of a specific fleet (although "Admirals of SF"
would usually get jobs like "Commander, Starfleet"[Morrow,
Cartwirght] or "Chief of Staff"[Bennett] or "The CinC"[Smillie,
or whatever the guy in STVI was called in the books]).
Sometimes "Fleet Admiral" would also be used as a nickname
of sorts for "Admirals of SF".
Timo Saloniemi
Love...@aol.com
j.r...@usa.net writes:
> The only "Fleet Admiral" I remember clearly was Shanthi, who wore
> Vice-Admiral boxes.
i dont recall if his full rank was mentioned on screen, but in AGT, "admiral
riker" of the future wore 4-boxed-pips... i think the only one ive seen in
the series
Timo S Saloniemi
>In a message dated 10/26/1999 12:21:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>j.r...@usa.net writes:
>> The only "Fleet Admiral" I remember clearly was Shanthi, who wore
>> Vice-Admiral boxes.
>i dont recall if his full rank was mentioned on screen, but in AGT,
>"admiral riker" of the future wore 4-boxed-pips... i think the only
>one ive seen in the series
Time for trivia recap:
"Admiral Riker" did not get a more specific rank in "AGT". He's not
the only four-pipper out there, though: admiral T'Lara from DS9
"Rules of Engagement" also wore four boxed pips. She got no
specific mention of exact rank, either.
The three people explicitly called Fleet Admirals in TNG were
Shanthi ("Redemption", "The Pegasus")
Brackett ("Unification")
Nechayev ("Journey's End")
While Nechayev appeared in several other episodes, she didn't get
explicitly called Fleet Admiral in those. In fact, she was Vice
Admiral in "The Maquis", which came *after* "Journey's End".
Each of the three wore the three boxed pips of Vice Admiral
in each of their appearances (although only Nechayev had multiple
appearances - Shanthi only got a mention in "The Pegasus").
None of the TOS admirals got called Fleet Admiral AFAIK. I do not
remember which of the DS9 admirals would have been called that,
either, although I do have the nagging feeling that Bill Ross
was given that honor at some point. He always wore the three boxed
pips of Vice Admiral, and was called exactly that when delivering
the new Defiant to Sisko.
Timo Saloniemi
Admiral Korel
>the only four-pipper out there, though: admiral T'Lara from DS9
>"Rules of Engagement" also wore four boxed pips. She got no
>specific mention of exact rank, either.
Well, if they're four-pippers, they were most likely straightforward
Admirals, no prefix. So indeed they /were/ given exact ranks.
Matthew
<PDEUOFBK0pvQ+W...@4ax.com>...
> 0-11 Admiral of the Starfleet (Fleet Admiral in the USN)
>
> O-7 and O-11 are the only two officer ranks that we haven't seen in
> TNG+.
>
1" and Fleet Admiral Shanthi in TNG's "Redemption, pt. 2"?
--
Replace the .invalid with .com to reply via e-mail
Love...@aol.com
st...@pugh.net writes:
> >can someone detail the full listing of this rank system and how it
> >relates/equates to standard ST ranks? it might be perfec for my "copper
> >pips" SF service branch.....
>
> Royal Air Force Star Fleet
>
> Pilot Officer Ensign
> Flying Officer Lieutenant JG
> Flight Lieutenant Lieutenant
> Squadron Leader Lieutenant-Commander
> Wing Commander Commander
> Group Captain Captain
> Air Commodore Commodore
> Air Vice-Marshal Rear Admiral
> Air Marshal Vice Admiral
> Air Chief Marshal Admiral
> Marshal of the RAF Admiral of the SF
>
> Though a SF branch would probably just use normal SF ranks - both RN
> and USN flight crews use normal naval ranks.
thanks!!
hmm.... "group capt" is the ONLY capt?? then why bother with the "group"
part of the designation? i could see the need if there was a "captain", then
a "group captain".....or even a "flight captain" to balance out the "flight
lt".....
what are the limits/responsibilities/underlings for each rank? for ex,
whats the flaming diff between a "pilot officer" and a "flying officer"? is
there some sublty that my feminine, non-testosterone mind cant crasp?
i can see the need of the term "air" in the other ranks to differentiate them
from a *regular* rank, like an "air commodore" compared to a "commodore"...
now, how to adapt to a SF setting?? maybe instead of "air whosie" it might be
"star whosie"..... what would this branch do that is different from the
regullar SF? pilots of smaller craft? pilots of anything designated as
landing or aero-dynamic? how about hydro-dynamic?(i was introed to an
interesting novel smetime back, cant recall the title of the author, but it
followed the development of a "heavier than water" submarine relying on
powered movement rather than bouyancy...) such might be useful for operation
in fluidic space, once voyager returns to tell us about s-8472....
maybe i need to think of another direction for my "copper ranked branch" to
go.....
}:P
Timo S Saloniemi
>Steve Pugh <st...@pugh.net> wrote in article
><PDEUOFBK0pvQ+W...@4ax.com>...
>> 0-11 Admiral of the Starfleet (Fleet Admiral in the USN)
>>
>> O-7 and O-11 are the only two officer ranks that we haven't seen in
>> TNG+.
>>
>Nonsense. What about Fleet Admiral Brackett in TNG's "Unification, pt.
>1" and Fleet Admiral Shanthi in TNG's "Redemption, pt. 2"?
Those, as well as Fleet Admiral Nechayev (identified as such in
"Journey's End" and "Preemptive Strike"), always wore the presumed
rank insignia of O-9 or Vice Admiral, three pips on a square
background plate. In fact, Nechayev is verbally identified as
Vice Admiral in "The Maquis", which comes AFTER her appearances
as a Fleet Admiral and still has her wearing the same three pips.
So either Vice Admiral and Fleet Admiral are the same thing, or
then one is a rank and the other a position. It would be strange
to the extreme to have O-9 and O-11 wear the exact same insignia
in so many confirmed cases - three pips MUST be Vice Admiral
since both Nechayev and Ross have been so identified while
wearing them, but similarly, ALL people verbally identified as Fleet
Admirals in ALL Star Trek so far have worn the same three pips, so
this cannot be a random mistake. It must be a pattern. (Maybe a
pattern based on a recurring Paramount mistake, but nevertheless a
"feature" in the Starfleet rank system, and not a "bug".)
Timo Saloniemi
Love...@aol.com
both...@hotmail.com writes:
> > >I have a 5 pipped Admiral of the Starfleet. Grand Admiral sounds so
> > >Klingon.
> >
> > Personally, Grand Admiral just sounds too British. (shudder) "Admiral of
> the
> > Starfleet" sounds a bit corny, tho... is there no other possiblity?
>
> They already have Grand Admirals in Star Wars. I'd like to see Trek
> avoid it. When I hear "Grand Admiral" I think of Grand Admiral Thrawn
> from Zahn's Star Wars trilogy.
ok ok ok.... so grand admiral is out....for this universe anyway, in the
mirror it fits all too well....
so, after a fleet admiral, ive heard the term "admiral of the starfleet", or
perhaps "starfleet admiral"?
recall that im admitting that there has to be only either only 1, or only 1
during wartime....
Love...@aol.com
10452...@compuserve.invalid writes:
> > 0-11 Admiral of the Starfleet (Fleet Admiral in the USN)
> >
> > O-7 and O-11 are the only two officer ranks that we haven't seen in
> > TNG+.
> >
> Nonsense. What about Fleet Admiral Brackett in TNG's "Unification, pt.
> 1" and Fleet Admiral Shanthi in TNG's "Redemption, pt. 2"?
non non non....
i think there is a difference between "fleet admiral, 4 boxpips" and the
"to-be named 5 boxpip admiral"......
i have posited "grand admiral", but there is too resistence to such
a...."militant" title.... so "admiral of the starfleet" was suggested for the
5-boxpipper
----------
LR
GOW Extrodinaire
jmz-techie
23rd Century. Plus the rank was one pip in a box for 24+ cent?
(Conflicting sources)
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Steve Pugh
<postmaste...@jmz-techie.shetland.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>Well, i thought commodore was no longer a rank after the end of the
>23rd Century. Plus the rank was one pip in a box for 24+ cent?
>(Conflicting sources)
Both views are speculation only. We have never met a Commodore in the
24th century. But we have also never met a one-pip Admiral. So we
simply don't know which of the following options is the actual case:
1. There are no one-pip Admirals
2. One-pip Admirals are called Commodores.
3. One-pip Admirals are called something else.
4. Commodore is the name for something other than one-pip Admirals
(can be combined with 1 or 3).
Personally I prefer 2 and have a large problem with any variation
involving 4. But 1 and 3 without 4 would be okay.
Cheers,
Jonah Rapp
> ----------
> In article <38028878...@usa.net>, Jonah Rapp <j.r...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >> Anyway, since we have seen a SF Intel Adm. (Blackwell), I'd wager all
> >> the other standard ranks from Ensign to Fleet Admiral could be represented
> >> in the Intelligence organization.
> >
> > I would stop at the four-pip full Admiral. the five-pip Fleet Admiral quite
> > possibly only
> > exists in time of war (as with contemporary militaries), and even if not,
> > I'd suggest that
> > only the Commander, Starfleet, holds the rank of Fleet Admiral.
>
> ===========================================
>
> I seem to recall from an earlier thread, "RANK IN STAR TREK", that Fleet
> Admirals have been shown/mentioned in at least one, possibly more episodes
> of TNG.
Those were Vice Admirals holding the position of commanding a fleet. "Fleet
Admiral" in that case is a position, not a rank. Because of this, we have taken
to referring to the actual five-pip rank as "Admiral of the Fleet" or "Admiral of
the Starfleet" or some such.
--Jonah
Jonah Rapp
> In a message dated 10/15/1999 12:09:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> tsal...@alpha.hut.fi writes:
>
> > >I favor the explanation that the bar denotes the rank of Fleet Captain
> > >-- which does exist, almost exclusively in conversation, though. It's
> > >a way of specifying an officer who holds a rank of the line, but works
> > >as a staff officer (adjutant, deputy director, personal assistant,
> > >secretary, whatever). So a Fleet Captain would be a Captain who works
> > >a desk job in some Admiral's office. Perfect for a deputy director of
> > >Starfleet Intelligence.
> >
> > I find this appealing as well. I didn't know that about Fleet Captains -
> > I must have heard it here before, but I really didn't remember any of
> > it. Damn. And thanks.
>
> no no no no no...No NO.....
>
> the scheme that makes the best explaination for a fleet captain (last known
> used in tos for retired-christopher-pike-in-a-chair, no idea of how the rank
> was denoted) is 4.5 pips, especially if a commodore is 5 pips.... i
> personally subscribe to a 5-pipped commoddore and a 1-boxpipped admiral as
> being nearly parallel in rank, but with the 5-pips slight less and signifying
> a rise tru the fleet ranks, while the 1-boxpipped admiral got his rank by
> riding only desks....
This fuzzy area now has the most agreement being that 5 pips do exist as a brevet
rank of Commodore given to a Captain who holds command over a fleet, while 1
boxed-pip is the formal rank of Commodore -- the difference being that the former
is temporary. Otherwise, they are completely equal in authority.
> i would rather beleive that the *underline-pips* are more of an "given"
> rank... the person getting them based upon some special set of circumstances
> but not necesssarrily thru normal rank channels... and the number of pips
> show his *relative* power.... in sloan's 'case', that paralleling a
> captain...perhaps its even a temp/provisinal rank?
Except that IA personnel are still part of the normal ranking structure. Only
civilian specialists are given 'G'-ratings in contemporary military, and that
doesn't even seem to be the case in Star Trek.
Fleet Captain still makes the most sense for the underlined pips. In going from a
line captaincy to a desk captaincy, it is, in its way, a promotion, but mostly a
lateral one. Considering how Pike got injured, I can so easily see his promotion
to Fleet Captain accompanied a transfer to Starfleet Academy Training Command.
Amusing to note that Kirk would later follow the same path...
--Jonah