Going to Warp within a Solar System or Planet?
GeneK
Kirk's log entry says they have to risk using warp while still in
*the* solar system, namely the Sol system. Could have something
to do with that darned asteroid belt or other navigational hazards,
as they're often shown going to warp within *other* solar systems
without tearing them apart. My guess is that it's the *ship* that's
at risk, rather than the planets, sort of like flooring your Ferrari
while backing it out of your garage.
GeneK
Brent of Core Meltdown wrote:
>
> I thought I heard somewhere that a warp capable ship couldn't go to warp in
> a solar system because it would tear the planets apart. I forgot exactly
> where I heard this, could have been on the series said by one of the
> captians or I might have read it in a tech manual, I forget really.
>
> But I've seen this broken many times, they impulse out of orbit then warp
> out right by a planet. So is it they can't Warp while in orbit maybe? And
> if they did warp while in orbit it would rip the planet apart? Or would the
> planets rip apart from warping while in the solar system? Like would they
> need to impulse out of the solar system then engage warp?
>
> One major flaw I see is in Star Trek 4 The Voyage Home, towards the end
> after beaming the whales up while they are in the atmoshphere Clearly in the
> Clouds Kirk orders Warp speed for the sun, and We SEE the Klingon Ship
> Warping out of Earth's atmosphere into space! Wouldn't this cause the Earth
> to be ripped to pieces?
Brent of Core Meltdown
Timo S Saloniemi
>I thought I heard somewhere that a warp capable ship couldn't go to warp in
>a solar system because it would tear the planets apart. I forgot exactly
>where I heard this, could have been on the series said by one of the
>captians or I might have read it in a tech manual, I forget really.
>
>But I've seen this broken many times, they impulse out of orbit then warp
>out right by a planet. So is it they can't Warp while in orbit maybe? And
>if they did warp while in orbit it would rip the planet apart? Or would the
>planets rip apart from warping while in the solar system? Like would they
>need to impulse out of the solar system then engage warp?
It doesn't seem to be true at all that warping inside a star system would
be harmful to the system. To the ship, perhaps, but never to the planets -
so many ships have warped from planetary orbits that there cannot
be anything dangerous in that procedure.
Then again, while we often see ships warping out of star systems
right after leaving orbit (or, in STIV, right before leaving the
atmosphere!), it is very seldom that we see a ship warping TOWARDS
a star or its planets. Even the mighty Borg have to slow down to impulse
in Earth's solar system. So perhaps warping out is okay, but warping
in poses a danger to the ship?
This would be consistent with "By Inferno's Light" where Dax considers
warping toward Bajor's sun a hazardous procedure. OTOH, in "The Schitzoid
Man", the E-D warps to within transporter range of a planet. Perhaps
the safe distance of warp approach varies from star to star and planet
to planet, depending on some unknown properties of the said stars and
planets?
In ST:TMP, the Enterprise is said to "risk" going to warp within the
solar system. But perhaps this only refers to the fact that the ship's
engines haven't been tested yet, and might blow up and pollute the
spaceways with antimatter and other soot? We haven't really seen any
Federation starship leave Earth's solar system at warp speed without
at first doing a short impulse run, but this may simply be because we
haven't been watching Earth and the ships around it too much. Klingon
ships obviously can warp straight out of the atmosphere...
>One major flaw I see is in Star Trek 4 The Voyage Home, towards the end
>after beaming the whales up while they are in the atmoshphere Clearly in the
>Clouds Kirk orders Warp speed for the sun, and We SEE the Klingon Ship
>Warping out of Earth's atmosphere into space! Wouldn't this cause the Earth
>to be ripped to pieces?
Apparently it doesn't. So there cannot be much truth in the idea that warping
damages planets. And the ship didn't seem to mind the treatment too much,
either.
Timo Saloniemi
David B.
>
> The only canonical reference I can recall is the one in TMP where
> Kirk's log entry says they have to risk using warp while still in
> *the* solar system, namely the Sol system. Could have something
> to do with that darned asteroid belt or other navigational hazards,
> as they're often shown going to warp within *other* solar systems
> without tearing them apart. My guess is that it's the *ship* that's
> at risk, rather than the planets, sort of like flooring your Ferrari
> while backing it out of your garage.
In DS9's "By Inferno's Light" Kira ordered Dax to go to warp in the
Bajor system to stop the Changeling who tried to blow up Bajor's sun.
Dax said something like "Go to warp in a solar system, that's crazy".
GeneK
sense... OTOH, over the years it's become clear that in the
24th century Starfleet thinks that way about lots of things
that people used to do routinely in TOS.
GeneK
Timo S Saloniemi
>GeneK wrote:
>>
>> The only canonical reference I can recall is the one in TMP where
>> Kirk's log entry says they have to risk using warp while still in
>> *the* solar system, namely the Sol system. Could have something
>> to do with that darned asteroid belt or other navigational hazards,
>> as they're often shown going to warp within *other* solar systems
>> without tearing them apart. My guess is that it's the *ship* that's
>> at risk, rather than the planets, sort of like flooring your Ferrari
>> while backing it out of your garage.
>In DS9's "By Inferno's Light" Kira ordered Dax to go to warp in the
>Bajor system to stop the Changeling who tried to blow up Bajor's sun.
>Dax said something like "Go to warp in a solar system, that's crazy".
A short list of reasons why warping inside a system might be dangerous
or otherwise undesirable:
1) It's crowded in there. However, this simply isn't true in most
cases - solar systems are pretty much empty space. Perhaps it is
dangerous to warp into an *uncharted* star system? And the Bajoran
system, while certainly charted, *is* rather crowded, with some 11
planets and various comets and the wacky Denorios belt.
2) Waving one's navigational deflector beam around is considered rude.
The range of the beam at medium warp would probably be a couple of
lightseconds, so this shouldn't be a problem except in very crowded
systems full of natural and artificial satellites. But it would help
explain why ships often warp *out* of systems, yet use impulse on the
*inward* leg of their trip - the beam would be more dangerous when
pointing inward.
3) The mass of the planets or the star, or some other property thereof,
disrupts warp. This cannot be true in the general case, since ships DO
warp very close to planets and stars, with little or no ill effects.
Some special warp-disrupting planets or stars might exist, however.
Or, as has been suggested, the mass or other properties of the planets
limit the choice of flightpaths available for warp travel: then a ship
entering a system would go to impulse rather than wait for a suitable
flightpath to open. A ship departing a planet would in turn be able
to time her departure to match a suitable warp flightpath if desired.
Sort of like today's ships waiting for the right tide, even though
they can go against it if needed.
4) The mass or some other property of the star or the planets decreases
warp performance to a point where it is better to use impulse. This
might be true since we *saw* how the Klingon ship flew around the sun
at high warp (8 to 10) in STIV, and it seemed to be crawling.
5) If your ship is untested or substandard, you might blow up, and
if you blow up within a star system, you leave behind debris and
antimatter residue, which is rude. This could be the reason for the
ST:TMP incident where warping within the Sol system was a "risk" -
it could have been a risk only to public safety of spacelanes, not
to the planets of the Sol system nor especially to the ship itself.
6) Some star systems have imposed "environmental regulations" to
protect them from the effects of 5) or of "warp pollution", or
then simple "traffic control regulations" to prevent speeding
and to help the traffic controllers and customs officers and whatnot
cope with their task. Starships follow these regulations. In case of
unexplored systems, they err on the side of caution so as not to
anger the natives.
7) Warping in creates a big lightshow, which exploration ships do
not want to create so as not to alarm the natives. And warships
of course want to remain stealthy. Unfortunately, we haven't
seen how big a lightshow would really result from "downwarping"
from the dirt-dwellers' point of view.
While "civil" races would abide to all the limitations mentioned above,
powerful evil invaders like the Borg would only take heed of 1), 3) and
4). Yet the Borg do slow down to impulse when invading systems. Does
this mean that one of those three explanations is correct? Can you invent
more explanations?
Timo Saloniemi
T P
past all the planets, Jupiter and such. To get away from the gravity wells
of the planets.
In the book "Prime Directive" by Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Kirk goes to warp
in an emergency within a gravity well of a planet they are orbiting, and
causes major damage to the ship. Stretching out the warp nacelle like
taffy, so the book describes.
It also explains that a warp field is a singularity, and since a gravity
well is a singularity too, having them so close together can cause
problems.
--
Please remove "NOSPAM" from address for any replies.
Thanks.
-TP
Robert Brady
>That's why in TMP, there's all those nice shots of the Enterprise flying
>past all the planets, Jupiter and such. To get away from the gravity wells
>of the planets.
That seems rather improbable. In the solar system, you'd have to explicitly
go past the planets in such a way : it's very unlikely that Mars, Jupiter,
Saturn, etc will be nicely lined up in a line to your destination.
>In the book "Prime Directive" by Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Kirk goes to warp
>in an emergency within a gravity well of a planet they are orbiting, and
>causes major damage to the ship. Stretching out the warp nacelle like
>taffy, so the book describes.
>It also explains that a warp field is a singularity, and since a gravity
>well is a singularity too, having them so close together can cause
>problems.
The book is contradicted by on-screen evidence (Star Trek IV), reality
(planetatary gravity wells are certainly not singularities), and that DS9
episode with the cloaked Romulan warbird : they identified the vessel as
such because of the singularily on board, and didn't say, "oh, maybe that
is just a vessel with a warp field."
--
Robert
Timo S Saloniemi
>That's why in TMP, there's all those nice shots of the Enterprise flying
>past all the planets, Jupiter and such. To get away from the gravity wells
>of the planets.
Doesn't sound very smart. If you want to get away from gravity
wells, why do you fly past them at spitting distance? If clearing the
gravity well was the problem, the ship should have flown directly
"up" or "down" from the plane of the ecliptic, then turned towards
V'Ger, and engaged warp.
>In the book "Prime Directive" by Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Kirk goes to warp
>in an emergency within a gravity well of a planet they are orbiting, and
>causes major damage to the ship. Stretching out the warp nacelle like
>taffy, so the book describes.
While that book has its good aspects, this one isn't one of them...
A rather crude mcguffin to keep the hulk of the Enterprise in the
system till the climax of the book.
>It also explains that a warp field is a singularity, and since a gravity
>well is a singularity too, having them so close together can cause
>problems.
Except that in most cases, it doesn't. You need very special circumstances
to make a warp drive NOT function next to a planet or a star. Klingon
ships have warped next to stars at least twice, and within a planet's
upper atmosphere once. Kirk often "warped out of orbit". Even the E-D
did a "proximity warp" in "The Schitzoid Man"...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>T P <tim...@nospamdirect.ca> wrote:
>>That's why in TMP, there's all those nice shots of the Enterprise flying
>>past all the planets, Jupiter and such. To get away from the gravity wells
>>of the planets.
>
>go past the planets in such a way : it's very unlikely that Mars, Jupiter,
>Saturn, etc will be nicely lined up in a line to your destination.
Luckily enough, the only planet the E-nil passed was Jupiter (but that
pass was at extremely close range). OTOH, the Borg certainly took
a scenic tour in "BoBW", visiting both Saturn and Mars (and did we see
Jupiter as well?) and apparently flying in some sort of a spiral, judging
by light angles.
Timo Saloniemi
Robert Brady
>Luckily enough, the only planet the E-nil passed was Jupiter (but that
>pass was at extremely close range). OTOH, the Borg certainly took
>a scenic tour in "BoBW", visiting both Saturn and Mars (and did we see
>Jupiter as well?) and apparently flying in some sort of a spiral, judging
>by light angles.
We know the date that that bit of BoBW took place in (early January 2367).
From this, we can find out the positions of those planets...
(Hmm, this is taking it a bit far...)
--
Robert
[1]. Does anyone else find it odd that major crises often occur in
December/January, and not, say, in July? :)
B.J. Olejnik
> We know the date that that bit of BoBW took place in (early January 2367).
> From this, we can find out the positions of those planets...
>
> (Hmm, this is taking it a bit far...)
Nah, that's easy. Go to space.jpl.nasa.gov and punch in a view of the
solar system from above. Using the above date, Earth, Mars and JUPITER
are in a straight line, but unfortunately Saturn is in the opposite
direction.
If you plug in a date of December 2367, then Earth, Mars and Saturn are
in a line.
B.J. Olejnik
Robert Brady
>Nah, that's easy. Go to space.jpl.nasa.gov and punch in a view of the
>solar system from above. Using the above date, Earth, Mars and JUPITER
>are in a straight line, but unfortunately Saturn is in the opposite
>direction.
>If you plug in a date of December 2367, then Earth, Mars and Saturn are
>in a line.
Wow. If we saw both Jupiter and Saturn in that episode, this proves that the
Borg were doing something very silly : spiralling into the solar system.
--
Robert
Graham Kennedy
>
> GeneK wrote:
> >
> > The only canonical reference I can recall is the one in TMP where
> > Kirk's log entry says they have to risk using warp while still in
> > *the* solar system, namely the Sol system. Could have something
> > to do with that darned asteroid belt or other navigational hazards,
> > as they're often shown going to warp within *other* solar systems
> > without tearing them apart. My guess is that it's the *ship* that's
> > at risk, rather than the planets, sort of like flooring your Ferrari
> > while backing it out of your garage.
>
> In DS9's "By Inferno's Light" Kira ordered Dax to go to warp in the
> Bajor system to stop the Changeling who tried to blow up Bajor's sun.
> Dax said something like "Go to warp in a solar system, that's crazy".
There are endless examples of ships going to warp
within a solar system, from TOS onwards. In ST IV,
Kirk even goes to Warp not only within the solar
system but actually within the Earths atmosphere!
My best guess is that it's an engine design issue.
Some engines are designed for use in a solar system,
some are not. Perhaps a design which is system-capable
is less efficient or something? The TMP Enterprise
might not have had system-capable engines then, but
it certainly got them later because they Warp out
of Earth orbit in ST III.
--
Graham Kennedy
Graham Kennedy
>
> Timo S Saloniemi <tsal...@akvamariini.hut.fi> wrote:
> >Luckily enough, the only planet the E-nil passed was Jupiter (but that
> >pass was at extremely close range). OTOH, the Borg certainly took
> >a scenic tour in "BoBW", visiting both Saturn and Mars (and did we see
> >Jupiter as well?) and apparently flying in some sort of a spiral, judging
> >by light angles.
>
> From this, we can find out the positions of those planets...
>
> (Hmm, this is taking it a bit far...)
What makes you think they haven't *moved* some of the
planets by then? ;-)
--
Graham Kennedy
Big Fat Dan
Brent of Core Meltdown <bre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Sjlz4.32119$t7.19...@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> I thought I heard somewhere that a warp capable ship couldn't go to warp
in
> a solar system because it would tear the planets apart. I forgot exactly
> where I heard this, could have been on the series said by one of the
> captians or I might have read it in a tech manual, I forget really.
It's not that they can't. It's just better not too. There's lot of debris
flying around a solar and passing through it while accelerating to warp
could do some serious damage.
Shik
characteristics of the various drive systems will turn the planets into whole
fruitcakes. Some more advanced planets, however, may be equipped with
anti-fruitcake fields, while others may simply be naturally immune (they turn
into Bundt cakes).
Or maybe the white mice decided to have that changed in the 2nd version.
Shik
"What inspiration will today's challenger bring, & how will the Iron Chef fight
back? The heat will be ON!!"
Hood42296
>a scenic tour in "BoBW", visiting both Saturn and Mars (and did we see
>Jupiter as well?) and apparently flying in some sort of a spiral, judging
>by light angles.
I rember a few years ago when I posted that when they came that was it was
from the worng direction. Mars is about 70 degrees away from where Wolf 359 is
during the time that the Borg made it to earth. I still can't get over the
hate-mail I got.
Weyoun the Dancing Borg
"Tractor beam" -- Kira
"we're not in range" -- Dax
"Want a bet? take us to warp!"-- Kira
"Inside a SOLAR system??!!" -- Dax
"If we don't there won't be a solar system left!"-- Kira
"Bleep Bleep Bloop" -- Console
"Woooooooosh" -- USS Defiant
--
"The whole concept of celebrity pisses me off. While I'm not a celebrity,
it's such a weird concept that society has cooked up for us. Astronauts and
teachers are much more amazing than actors."
Joseph Gordon-Levitt
To reply to me, click here: wey...@btinternet.com
or remove ".DESPAM" from my reply address.
GeneK <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote in message
news:38CDEF77.478CC4E1@genek_hates_spammers.com...
> The only canonical reference I can recall is the one in TMP where
> Kirk's log entry says they have to risk using warp while still in
> *the* solar system, namely the Sol system. Could have something
> to do with that darned asteroid belt or other navigational hazards,
> as they're often shown going to warp within *other* solar systems
> without tearing them apart. My guess is that it's the *ship* that's
> at risk, rather than the planets, sort of like flooring your Ferrari
> while backing it out of your garage.
>
> GeneK
>
>
> Brent of Core Meltdown wrote:
> >
> > I thought I heard somewhere that a warp capable ship couldn't go to warp
in
> > a solar system because it would tear the planets apart. I forgot
exactly
> > where I heard this, could have been on the series said by one of the
> > captians or I might have read it in a tech manual, I forget really.
> >
> > But I've seen this broken many times, they impulse out of orbit then
warp
> > out right by a planet. So is it they can't Warp while in orbit maybe?
And
> > if they did warp while in orbit it would rip the planet apart? Or would
the
> > planets rip apart from warping while in the solar system? Like would
they
> > need to impulse out of the solar system then engage warp?
> >
Weyoun the Dancing Borg
planet CLEARLY in visual range??
--
"The whole concept of celebrity pisses me off. While I'm not a celebrity,
it's such a weird concept that society has cooked up for us. Astronauts and
teachers are much more amazing than actors."
Joseph Gordon-Levitt
To reply to me, click here: wey...@btinternet.com
or remove ".DESPAM" from my reply address.
Brent of Core Meltdown <bre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Sjlz4.32119$t7.19...@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Mike Dicenso
On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
> > In DS9's "By Inferno's Light" Kira ordered Dax to go to warp in the
> > Bajor system to stop the Changeling who tried to blow up Bajor's sun.
> > Dax said something like "Go to warp in a solar system, that's crazy".
>
> There are endless examples of ships going to warp
> within a solar system, from TOS onwards. In ST IV,
> Kirk even goes to Warp not only within the solar
> system but actually within the Earths atmosphere!
>
> My best guess is that it's an engine design issue.
> Some engines are designed for use in a solar system,
> some are not. Perhaps a design which is system-capable
> is less efficient or something? The TMP Enterprise
> might not have had system-capable engines then, but
> it certainly got them later because they Warp out
> of Earth orbit in ST III.
I would'nt say it's a matter of design, but of balance. The TMP E did'nt
have the intermix set so it was probably a matter of safety to wait a bit
before the ship could go to warp in case of unforeseen trouble, but good
'ol Jim Kirk just has to push things...
-Mike
Timeout
Mike Dicenso wrote:
I would agree that it would be for safety purposes for other ships in the
system as a reason not to warp in a populated system as seen in DS9.
Mike Dicenso
On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Timeout wrote:
>
>
> Mike Dicenso wrote:
>
> > > it certainly got them later because they Warp out
> > > of Earth orbit in ST III.
> >
> > I would'nt say it's a matter of design, but of balance. The TMP E did'nt
> > have the intermix set so it was probably a matter of safety to wait a bit
> > before the ship could go to warp in case of unforeseen trouble, but good
> > 'ol Jim Kirk just has to push things...
> > -Mike
>
> I would agree that it would be for safety purposes for other ships in the
> system as a reason not to warp in a populated system as seen in DS9.
Well the problem is that we've seen numerous times beyound count of
starships from TOS to VGER going to warp well inside of various populated
star systems. If safety was the concern, why did they do it under such
benign circumstances? In "By Inferno's Light", there would have to be
something very unusual about the Bajoran system that makes warp combat,
and warping in and out of the system not a very good idea under certain
circumstances. My thoughts are that it must be something to do with the
Denoris asteriod belt, and the plasma fields that my inhibit a warp speed
starship's navigation.
-Mike
Graham Kennedy
>
>
> Well the problem is that we've seen numerous times beyound count of
> starships from TOS to VGER going to warp well inside of various populated
> star systems. If safety was the concern, why did they do it under such
> benign circumstances? In "By Inferno's Light", there would have to be
> something very unusual about the Bajoran system that makes warp combat,
> and warping in and out of the system not a very good idea under certain
> circumstances. My thoughts are that it must be something to do with the
> Denoris asteriod belt, and the plasma fields that my inhibit a warp speed
> starship's navigation.
> -Mike
Trouble is, the dialogue should really mention that if it's
so. Dax's reaction is pretty conclusive that it's the idea
of going to warp in a solar system which is the problem,
not that it's anything to do with anything else.
--
Graham Kennedy
Graham Kennedy
>
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
> > > In DS9's "By Inferno's Light" Kira ordered Dax to go to warp in the
> > > Bajor system to stop the Changeling who tried to blow up Bajor's sun.
> > > Dax said something like "Go to warp in a solar system, that's crazy".
> >
> > There are endless examples of ships going to warp
> > within a solar system, from TOS onwards. In ST IV,
> > Kirk even goes to Warp not only within the solar
> > system but actually within the Earths atmosphere!
> >
> > My best guess is that it's an engine design issue.
> > Some engines are designed for use in a solar system,
> > some are not. Perhaps a design which is system-capable
> > is less efficient or something? The TMP Enterprise
> > might not have had system-capable engines then, but
> > of Earth orbit in ST III.
>
> I would'nt say it's a matter of design, but of balance. The TMP E did'nt
> have the intermix set so it was probably a matter of safety to wait a bit
> before the ship could go to warp in case of unforeseen trouble, but good
> 'ol Jim Kirk just has to push things...
I never had that impression. And it doesn't explain why
the Defiant found the idea of warping in Bajors system
to be so terrifying.
I would compromise and say it was engine setup - you
can optimise your engines for efficiency in deep space,
or spend a day or two modifying them to be less efficient
but much better at operating near to a star.
--
Graham Kennedy
Mike Dicenso
On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
> > and warping in and out of the system not a very good idea under certain
> > circumstances. My thoughts are that it must be something to do with the
> > Denoris asteriod belt, and the plasma fields that may inhibit a warp
> > speed starship's navigation.
> > -Mike
> Trouble is, the dialogue should really mention that if it's
> so. Dax's reaction is pretty conclusive that it's the idea
> of going to warp in a solar system which is the problem,
> not that it's anything to do with anything else.
True enough Graham, but then I think that we can chaulk it up to YATI
in that case. If we have to come up with an explanation, we can just say
that Dax made an error due to the stress of the situation in failing to
note that the Bajoran system had such navigational hazards.
-Mike
Graham Kennedy
Boo... coward! It's *fun* to try and explain it all...
I still say engines can be designed and/or modified to operate
very efficiently, but only at the expense of in-system warp
travel. The E-refit was so configured, as was the Defiant,
in the respective film/episode. At other points in their lives
they were fitted to allow in-system warp travel, but at the
expense of some degree of efficiency when out in deep space.
--
Graham Kennedy
GeneK
a solar system to an end point within the *same* solar system, which is
what Kira was calling for in that episode.
GeneK
Mike Dicenso
On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
> > True enough Graham, but then I think that we can chaulk it up to YATI
> > in that case. If we have to come up with an explanation, we can just say
> > that Dax made an error due to the stress of the situation in failing to
> > note that the Bajoran system had such navigational hazards.
>
> Boo... coward! It's *fun* to try and explain it all...
Hey I'am just being practical about the whole thing!
> I still say engines can be designed and/or modified to operate
> very efficiently, but only at the expense of in-system warp
> travel. The E-refit was so configured, as was the Defiant,
> in the respective film/episode. At other points in their lives
> they were fitted to allow in-system warp travel, but at the
> expense of some degree of efficiency when out in deep space.
So then why have'nt they ever stated that to be the case? Just to turn
your own arguement around against you here...
-Mike
Timo S Saloniemi
>dMike Dicenso wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well the problem is that we've seen numerous times beyound count of
>> starships from TOS to VGER going to warp well inside of various populated
>> benign circumstances? In "By Inferno's Light", there would have to be
>> something very unusual about the Bajoran system that makes warp combat,
>> circumstances. My thoughts are that it must be something to do with the
>> starship's navigation.
>> -Mike
>Trouble is, the dialogue should really mention that if it's
>so. Dax's reaction is pretty conclusive that it's the idea
>of going to warp in a solar system which is the problem,
>not that it's anything to do with anything else.
It is of course still possible that it is the *Defiant* which cannot go
to warp within a solar system. The ship is a jury-rigged prototype
with a history of warp engine troubles, after all. In that case, Dax
wouldn't need to mention anything specific about the reasons for
not going to warp. She was aboard a ship that might blow up if
performing that maneuver, and both she and Kira would know that fact.
In any case, the Bajoran system might have some warp-hampering effects
that apply to all ships. After all, the premise of the episode was
that the explosion of the Bajoran star would engulf the residing fleets
as well. Now, if the explosion was sublight, it could be easily
escaped, unless the Bajoran system made warp drive difficult for
the residing fleets. (FTL explosions aren't impossible, either,
but we haven't seen too many of those apart from the Praxis thing)
Perhaps only the Denorios belt was warp-inhibiting for all ships, but
the Founders knew the fleets would be inside that belt since they were
defending the wormhole which lies inside the belt? Did the runabouts go
to warp in "Past Prologue", an episode featuring an intense chase very
close to the wormhole? The big battlefleets in the war episodes always
departed at impulse...
I believe the Defiant has warped directly out of DS9 in some episodes,
though. Or has she? "Defiant" comes to mind, but perhaps Tom Riker
was pulling a stunt that risked blowing up the ship? Has Sisko
warped out from DS9?
Timo Saloniemi
Graham Kennedy
>
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
>
> > > True enough Graham, but then I think that we can chaulk it up to YATI
> > > in that case. If we have to come up with an explanation, we can just say
> > > that Dax made an error due to the stress of the situation in failing to
> > > note that the Bajoran system had such navigational hazards.
> >
> > Boo... coward! It's *fun* to try and explain it all...
>
> Hey I'am just being practical about the whole thing!
Sorry, you used a word I'm not familiar with there.
> > I still say engines can be designed and/or modified to operate
> > very efficiently, but only at the expense of in-system warp
> > travel. The E-refit was so configured, as was the Defiant,
> > in the respective film/episode. At other points in their lives
> > they were fitted to allow in-system warp travel, but at the
> > expense of some degree of efficiency when out in deep space.
>
> So then why have'nt they ever stated that to be the case? Just to turn
> your own arguement around against you here...
They don't have to give a complete description of the
status of the warp drive everytime they say "engage",
do they? How often do SSN crewmembers actually mention
the fact that their engines are designed to be quiet to
one another?
--
Graham Kennedy
Graham Kennedy
>
> In article <38D34DAE...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> Graham Kennedy <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >dMike Dicenso wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Well the problem is that we've seen numerous times beyound count of
> >> starships from TOS to VGER going to warp well inside of various populated
> >> star systems. If safety was the concern, why did they do it under such
> >> benign circumstances? In "By Inferno's Light", there would have to be
> >> something very unusual about the Bajoran system that makes warp combat,
> >> and warping in and out of the system not a very good idea under certain
> >> circumstances. My thoughts are that it must be something to do with the
> >> Denoris asteriod belt, and the plasma fields that my inhibit a warp speed
> >> starship's navigation.
> >> -Mike
>
> >Trouble is, the dialogue should really mention that if it's
> >so. Dax's reaction is pretty conclusive that it's the idea
> >of going to warp in a solar system which is the problem,
> >not that it's anything to do with anything else.
>
> It is of course still possible that it is the *Defiant* which cannot go
> to warp within a solar system. The ship is a jury-rigged prototype
> with a history of warp engine troubles, after all. In that case, Dax
> wouldn't need to mention anything specific about the reasons for
> not going to warp. She was aboard a ship that might blow up if
> performing that maneuver, and both she and Kira would know that fact.
Perfectly possible, but I just bet there are occasions when
the Defiant has done just that. I haven't got around to
starting episode noted on DS9 though, so I couldn't say.
> In any case, the Bajoran system might have some warp-hampering effects
> that apply to all ships. After all, the premise of the episode was
> that the explosion of the Bajoran star would engulf the residing fleets
> as well. Now, if the explosion was sublight, it could be easily
> escaped, unless the Bajoran system made warp drive difficult for
> the residing fleets. (FTL explosions aren't impossible, either,
> but we haven't seen too many of those apart from the Praxis thing)
Very good point. but again, I just bet there are examples
of ships doing warp speed in the Bajoran system!
--
Graham Kennedy
Timeout
Graham Kennedy wrote:
> Mike Dicenso wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
> >
> > > > and warping in and out of the system not a very good idea under certain
> > > > circumstances. My thoughts are that it must be something to do with the
> > > > Denoris asteriod belt, and the plasma fields that may inhibit a warp
> > > > speed starship's navigation.
> > > > -Mike
> >
> > > Trouble is, the dialogue should really mention that if it's
> > > so. Dax's reaction is pretty conclusive that it's the idea
> > > of going to warp in a solar system which is the problem,
> > > not that it's anything to do with anything else.
> >
> > True enough Graham, but then I think that we can chaulk it up to YATI
> > in that case. If we have to come up with an explanation, we can just say
> > that Dax made an error due to the stress of the situation in failing to
> > note that the Bajoran system had such navigational hazards.
>
> Boo... coward! It's *fun* to try and explain it all...
>
> I still say engines can be designed and/or modified to operate
> very efficiently, but only at the expense of in-system warp
> travel. The E-refit was so configured, as was the Defiant,
> in the respective film/episode. At other points in their lives
> they were fitted to allow in-system warp travel, but at the
> expense of some degree of efficiency when out in deep space.
>
>
How about another theory.
Dax had the knowledge that they were going to be warping directly toward the sun
for a VERY SHORT distance from within the same solar system making the timing
very important and the warp jump very dangerous. A half second too late and the
ship would be in the sun.
Admiral Korel
>
>Sorry, you used a word I'm not familiar with there.
"I". Pronoun. First person singular.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morgan McEvoy, morg...@esatclear.ie
"It's like the laws of physics just went out the window."
"And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient!"
Admiral Korel
>a solar system to an end point within the *same* solar system, which is
>what Kira was calling for in that episode.
A-ha! Now /there's/ a thought. Perhaps the scary concept was of jumping to
warp and then dropping out almost immediately, risking a cumulative effect
from the downwarping stresses and the, er, upwarping stresses?
Graham Kennedy
>
>
> How about another theory.
> Dax had the knowledge that they were going to be warping directly toward the sun
> for a VERY SHORT distance from within the same solar system making the timing
> very important and the warp jump very dangerous. A half second too late and the
> ship would be in the sun.
That could work, but the TMP case involved the Enterprise
heading directly *away* from the sun. Why make up a different
theory to explain each case when one can explain both?
--
Graham Kennedy
GeneK
immediately upon leaving a planet's orbit; it may well be that
the engines don't operate at peak efficiency under such conditions,
but that wouldn't necessarily make doing it a "risk," or "crazy."
Seems to me the "risk" part of the TMP operation was obvious: if
the engines aren't properly tested and balanced you can end up in
a wormhole, along with whatever floating space debris that gets
sucked into it with you, which is exactly what happened. The
"crazy" part of going to warp inside a solar system in that DS9
episode was equally obvious: that was a damned short jump to try
and navigate at warp.
GeneK
Graham Kennedy
>
> Because Trek is replete with examples of Starships going to warp
> immediately upon leaving a planet's orbit; it may well be that
> the engines don't operate at peak efficiency under such conditions,
No, I'm not suggesting that all warp engines suffer in
a system. Quite the opposite; I'm suggesting that you
can modify an engine to operate well in a system or
out of it as you wish, but not both. Kinda like tuning
an engine to give good mileage or good acceleration.
--
Graham Kennedy
GeneK
floor the gas pedal of your car to pull from the front of your
driveway into your garage, would you? Think of the Bajoran sun
in this example as equivalent to the back wall of your garage...
GeneK
Mike Dicenso
On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
> Mike Dicenso wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Graham Kennedy wrote:
> >
> > > > True enough Graham, but then I think that we can chaulk it up to YATI
> > > > in that case. If we have to come up with an explanation, we can just say
> > > > that Dax made an error due to the stress of the situation in failing to
> > > > note that the Bajoran system had such navigational hazards.
> > >
> > > Boo... coward! It's *fun* to try and explain it all...
> >
> > Hey I'am just being practical about the whole thing!
>
> Sorry, you used a word I'm not familiar with there.
>
> > > I still say engines can be designed and/or modified to operate
> > > very efficiently, but only at the expense of in-system warp
> > > travel. The E-refit was so configured, as was the Defiant,
> > > in the respective film/episode. At other points in their lives
> > > they were fitted to allow in-system warp travel, but at the
> > > expense of some degree of efficiency when out in deep space.
> >
> > So then why have'nt they ever stated that to be the case? Just to turn
> > your own arguement around against you here...
>
> They don't have to give a complete description of the
> status of the warp drive everytime they say "engage",
> do they? How often do SSN crewmembers actually mention
> the fact that their engines are designed to be quiet to
> one another?
Then using that form of reasoning it can also be assumed that Dax just
simply forgot to mention doing such a crazy thing like warping right
at a star with little room for error is what she really ment, but forgot
to say in her conversation with Kira.
-Mike
GeneK
explain it in detail to Kira; and since Kira didn't say "Why is it
crazy?" but simply pointed out that if they failed to catch the
ship they were pursuing there wouldn't be a solar system (in which
case everyone on Bajor, DS9 and possibly on their own ship would
have been killed anyway), I'd say she knew perfectly well how
"crazy" the manuever was.
GeneK
Graham Kennedy
>
> > They don't have to give a complete description of the
> > status of the warp drive everytime they say "engage",
> > do they? How often do SSN crewmembers actually mention
> > the fact that their engines are designed to be quiet to
> > one another?
>
> simply forgot to mention doing such a crazy thing like warping right
> at a star with little room for error is what she really ment, but forgot
> to say in her conversation with Kira.
No need to - I'm not the one who assumed that was the
problem in this case, I just assumed that the Defiants
engines were not set up for insystem travel in this
episode (if they are in any).
--
Graham Kennedy
Mike Dicenso
The simplest thing to do is chaulk it up to YATI. We've seen so many times
where in-system, and entering, and or exiting a star system is not a
problem. I personally like the idea of the Denoris asteroid belt, and the
plasma fields combining with the trickness of the high speed jump right at
the Bajoran sun is what prompted the concern. No need for bizzaro
technobabble here.
-Mike
Graham Kennedy
YATI is always the simplest answer... I like to look
for ones that at least give some sort of explanation
of all the canon stuff.
--
Graham Kennedy
Mohsin Khan
course!!!
--
Graham Kennedy <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38D38C8A...@adeadend.demon.co.uk...
Brian S. Ward
He didn't know he had to plot one, besides he shouldn't even have gone to
warp in the solar system anyway. His engines were definitely not
"solar-system capable."
Brian Ward
bs_...@prodigy.net
Mohsin Khan <kh...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:8cb46d$jpp$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Admiral Korel
>warp in the solar system anyway. His engines were definitely not
>"solar-system capable."
Based on what? They were built in the system, for use in the system. They
were used in the system, and nothing went wrong with them. So why shouldn't
he have used them in the system?
The Drew
was the time / mass diliation effects from .5C to C.
-Drew