I KNOW THE ANSWER TO WARP 13 QUESTION EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!
Jamie King
SPOILER ALERT!!!!
SPOILER ALERT!!!!
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From a very reliable source (I'm talking working for Paramount), I know the
reason the Enterprise of the future was able to travel at Warp 13.....
TRANSWARP!!!!!
This will be explained in an upcoming episode of DS9. The Warp pollution
problem will also be fixed.
Both will be done by SCOTTY!! Yes he's coming back to DS9 for at least 3
episodes! Also, regarding Voyager: Kirsty Alley HAS SIGNED for a role in
Voyager!!! RUMOR CONFERMED!
R J Whitaker
: SPOILER ALERT!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do we *HAVE* to have the warp 10 = infinite speed discussion *AGAIN*?
You absolutely *cannot* explain warp 13 without redefining the warp
scale. I don't care whether you're using TransWarp or if you have to get
out and push (!), the current warp 10 means you arrive at your
destination at the same instant you leave - it takes *ZERO* time. Faster
than that and you're going backwards in time. TransWarp may or may not be
involved but you still have to redefine the scale.
If this topic comes up again I swear I will kill someone.
[Irate bastard mode off]
--
|R.J.W Collingwood College,||It has yet to be proven that |
|South Road, Durham. DH1 3LT||intelligence has any survival|
|Vacation Tel: (0895) 811130||value. - Arthur C. Clarke |
Taki Kogoma
rec.arts.startrek.tech:
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Do we *HAVE* to have the warp 10 = infinite speed discussion *AGAIN*?
Yes we do. So long as there are new people yet to read r.a.st.tech,
the Warp Factor argument will remain cyclical.
(I really ought to record this in a file someplace...)
THE LIFE-CYCLE OF THE WARP FORMULA DISCUSSION:
1) Someone asks what the relation between warp factors and starship
velocity is.
2) The TOS WF^3*c (correct) and TNG WF^5*c (incorrect) formulae are
put forth.
3) The corrected TNG formula of WF^(4/3)*c for WF < 9 and v --> oo as
WF --> 10 for WF > 9 gets posted by frustrated long-time r.a.st.tech
readers.
4) One of three things happens:
4a) Someone points out that the TOS _Enterprise_ exceeded WF 10 in XYZ
episode. Goto 2) or 3) depending on who responds.
4b) The discussion amazingly dies down. Goto 1)
4c) P'mont throws a massive continuity gaffe at us (e.g. "All Good
Things") and everthing goes to hades in a fanny-pack.
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk - kog...@unm.edu | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
Retired 'Secret Master of | superior to what I have now."
rec.arts.startrek' | -- Gym Quirk
Joshua Bell
>Jamie King (jam...@icebox.iceonline.com) wrote:
>: I know the
>: reason the Enterprise of the future was able to travel at Warp 13.....
>: TRANSWARP!!!!!
>
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, this makes sense:
According to the TNG Tech Manual, TransWarp was an attempt to
bypass the warp field barrier. I assume that this refers to the
energy asymptote as W->10.
If TransWarp engines allow the formation of warp fields which
allow travel in the TNG 9 < W < 10 range efficiently (i.e., they
have energy minima) Starfleet would be justified in redefining
the Warp scale.
I would be quite happy to see an explanation of this sort.
*OF COURSE* AGT Warp 13 is < TNG Warp 10, however. Can't be any
debate about that.
Joshua
--
"You're so silly!" - Simba "You have no idea." - Scar (The Lion King)
<jsb...@acs.ucalgary.ca> University Computing Services, University of Calgary
R J Whitaker
: R J Whitaker <R.J.Wh...@durham.ac.uk> was observed writing in
: rec.arts.startrek.tech:
: >AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
: >
: >Do we *HAVE* to have the warp 10 = infinite speed discussion *AGAIN*?
: Yes we do. So long as there are new people yet to read r.a.st.tech,
: the Warp Factor argument will remain cyclical.
Hmmmm. Solution: in future all r.a.s.tech old timers ignore posts about
Warp Factors >10 apart from the odd snigger at newbie discussions of the
subject. With any luck they'll soon get bored. And I'll do my best to
restrain myself from frustrated outbursts such as the one quoted above.
car...@umassd.edu
No. Here's the answer. There are several levels of warp that can be attained.
The early ships used primary or secondary warp drive (so named because primary
used one warp coil and secondary had two warp coils, one within the other).
The original Enterprise, the first starship, was also the first to use
tertiary warp drive (three warp coils within eachother). The difference is that
somewhere in the warp formula (which is a integral scale, in other words the
next term is the integral of the first), the power changes in the first term.
For example, primary warp has v=wc, secondary v=w^2c, tertiary v=w^3c, and so
forth. At warp one, the power doesn't matter, but with higher warps, the power
increases much greater based upon the power. The present Enterprise also has
tertiary warp, however it's a much more advanced form as people figured how to
get tertiary warp speed with a single warp coil as opposed to three within
eachother, allowing for more efficiency and greater speeds. As for why no one
stuck 4 warp coils within eachother, they tried but they could never find an
arrangement that worked, so people speculated that when people could design
warp coils where a single one could have the same effect as three for tertiary
warp, then quartrinary [sp?] warp would be possible. Apparently, with the
obvious refit the Enterprise received in "All good things...," the third warp
nacell was the modification necessary to boost it from tertiary to quartrinary
warp (the Pasteur, being a new ship was designed with quartrinary warp from the
get-go and was able to achieve it with only two nacells). Quartrinary warp has
the same warp 10 speed limit as do tertiary and lower warps. However, the warps
along the way are much faster. Forexample, warp 5 with quartrinary warp drive
is MUCH faster than warp 5 with tertiary warp drive. Obviously, it would be
confusing to use the same numbers, so when quartrinary warp arrived, they
created a new scale for it (hence warp 13). This both answers where warp 13
came from, and why they decided to redefine the warp scale.
silve...@delphi.com
>You absolutely *cannot* explain warp 13 without redefining the warp
>scale. I don't care whether you're using TransWarp or if you have to get
>out and push (!), the current warp 10 means you arrive at your
>destination at the same instant you leave - it takes *ZERO* time. Faster
>than that and you're going backwards in time. TransWarp may or may not be
>involved but you still have to redefine the scale.
>If this topic comes up again I swear I will kill someone.
show how events can occur outside the purview of Newtonian physics, and
Cochrane's stuff seems to throw Einstein's out the window (have we EVER
seen relativity on Trek?), transwarp blows Cochranian space all to hell.
In this case, however, instead of using a new scale, the Federation
extrapolated from the old one (perhaps thay got tired of all warps that
transwarp is capable of being quantified as "warp 9.999999999999999987",
and found a way to simplify it.
Ansu Mittra
gone past w10? i dont think they have, so its just theory. and theories
can be broken...
Ansu Mittra
ansum...@delphi.com
Russell Stewart
: now wait a minute, they say that warp 10 is the limit, well have they ever
: gone past w10? i dont think they have, so its just theory. and theories
: can be broken...
Yes, this is what's so ridiculous. Everytime someone suggests that some new
method may allow faster than Warp 10, 5 billion fanatics shout "NO! IT'S
IMPOSSIBLE! PERIOD! NO! NO! NO! NO!"
But there have been at least two episodes ("Where No One has Gone Before" and
the one where Barclay becomes Superman), and probably more, where someone
or something has moved the E from point A to point B in a much shorter time
than it would take at Warp 10. THEREFORE, it is possible. No one can deny
it.
--
Russell Stewart "The only way to find the limits of
dia...@einet.com the possible is to go beyond into the
Albuquerque, NM impossible." -Arthur C. Clarke
Russell Stewart
Michael M. Welch
Russell Stewart <dia...@mack.einet.com> wrote:
>Ansu Mittra (ansum...@delphi.com) wrote:
>: now wait a minute, they say that warp 10 is the limit, well have they ever
>: gone past w10? i dont think they have, so its just theory. and theories
>: can be broken...
>
>Yes, this is what's so ridiculous. Everytime someone suggests that some new
>method may allow faster than Warp 10, 5 billion fanatics shout "NO! IT'S
>IMPOSSIBLE! PERIOD! NO! NO! NO! NO!"
>But there have been at least two episodes ("Where No One has Gone Before" and
>the one where Barclay becomes Superman), and probably more, where someone
>or something has moved the E from point A to point B in a much shorter time
>than it would take at Warp 10. THEREFORE, it is possible. No one can deny
>it.
I deny it. It's imposssible (without backward time travel). Period.
Don't you guys pay *any* attention to the reason that is given when
people say it's impossible? Do you have any concept of infinity? At Warp
10, you move from point A to point B INSTANTLY. You arrive at point B (as
well as at points C, D, E . . .) at the EXACT SAME MOMENT you left point A,
regardless of how far apart the two points are. Would you care to explain
going faster than this without going backward in time?
If they didn't go back in time in that Barclay episode, then they did
NOT travel from point A to point B in a shorter time than it would take at
Warp 10, cuz at Warp 10 would have taken *literally* NO time. The same
applies for the Traveller, with Geordi's statement being YATI, if there
was no backward time travel involved at any point.
In short, even if you could come up with a means to move the ship
500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
light years in one microsecond, you are STILL going *slower* than TNG's
Warp 10. Why is this so hard to grasp?
- Michael (the fanatic)
--
Michael Welch
mwe...@netcom.com
Christopher Beattie
(lots of stuff deleted)
>(the Pasteur, being a new ship was designed with quartrinary warp from
> the get-go and was able to achieve it with only two nacells).
Only one problem to completely blow your warp bubble. (sorry for the
pun) That us that the Pasteur altough being a "hope" class seems also
to be a modified deadalous class starship. More than likely a class
somewhere between the deadalous and the first streamlined starships
like the constitution class. More than likely the Pasteur was older
than the Enterprise D and even than the originial enterprise.
| --- --/ /-\ /-\ | Christopher Beattie | Disclamer: |
| | / | | | / | Tantalus @ Key West | My opinions are mine. |
| | /-- \-/ | \ | chr...@central.keywest.mpgn.com |
Russell Stewart
: Don't you guys pay *any* attention to the reason that is given when
: people say it's impossible? Do you have any concept of infinity? At Warp
: 10, you move from point A to point B INSTANTLY. You arrive at point B (as
: well as at points C, D, E . . .) at the EXACT SAME MOMENT you left point A,
: regardless of how far apart the two points are. Would you care to explain
: going faster than this without going backward in time?
Hmm... I guess I can accept that. I just get annoyed when an audience decides
to supersede the writers. I mean, it SAYS that at Warp 10, you move from
point A to point B instantly. My question is: why? Does anyone here have a
perfect understanding of warp theory? Of course not, because it's fictional.
And I am more inclined to believe that the warp 13 thing was just a redef-
inition of the scale, but if the writers collectively decide to say,
"Okay, the Warp 10 barrier was finally broken because of <tech>", I'll
say, "All right. It's your show." Because, even though it is *science*
fiction, it is still fiction, and to me, plot, storyline, and character are
more important than <tech>.
Now, don't get me wrong. I enjoy speculating on these things just as much as
you do, but it's important to realize that we don't own the show -- Paramount
does. And we can't be defining absolutes for them if they don't want us to.
Okay, soapbox cleared for the next speaker.
Joshua Bell
>In article <Crq9A...@umassd.edu> car...@umassd.edu writes:
>>(the Pasteur, being a new ship was designed with quartrinary warp from
>> the get-go and was able to achieve it with only two nacells).
The whole 'quartrinary warp' stuff is crap from start to finish
anyway.
>Only one problem to completely blow your warp bubble. (sorry for the
>pun) That us that the Pasteur altough being a "hope" class seems also
>to be a modified deadalous class starship.
Apart from having a spherical primary hull, they aren't very
similar. The Hope-class is also a LOT larger than a Daedalus-
class ship - it was at least comparable in size to the Klingon
ships, where which comparable in size to the Enterprise-D. The
Daedalus-class is *tiny* in comparison to the Enterprise-D, and
even smaller than the Constitution Class 1701'.
>More than likely a class
>somewhere between the deadalous and the first streamlined starships
>like the constitution class.
> More than likely the Pasteur was older
>than the Enterprise D and even than the originial enterprise.
Which, since the Daedalus-class went out in 2197 and the
Constitution-class was definitely in use by 2245, and TNG is
currently in 2270 or so, plus 25 years for the future, would make
the Pasteur 200 years old or so.
Yeah, right. Damn fast ship for 200 years old. Even the
Galaxy-class ships aren't expected to last 100.
It's a design which maximizes the interior space while still
fitting inside the two-lobed warp field that the traditional
double-hull design allows you to use. Either it's
TNG-contemporary, reffitted post-TNG to do the Warp 13 speeds, or
a post-TNG design entirely.
Brendan Donovan
>method may allow faster than Warp 10, 5 billion fanatics shout "NO! IT'S
>IMPOSSIBLE! PERIOD! NO! NO! NO! NO!"
>But there have been at least two episodes ("Where No One has Gone Before" and
>the one where Barclay becomes Superman), and probably more, where someone
>or something has moved the E from point A to point B in a much shorter time
>than it would take at Warp 10. THEREFORE, it is possible. No one can deny
>it.
>
I read that in "Where no on has gone before", the E traveled at warp (get
this) 9.99999999999996. (I think 13 was the right number of 9's). So I
am denying it! I will try to locate the source sometime.
But this brings up an interesting idea about the warp 13 YATI. Could it
be that the '13' refers to the number of 9's in the warp number? I know
this sounds silly but hey.
However, I still think warp 13 was thrown in by the tech guys to make us
all really annoyed. Or possibly to indicate this future was not the real
future and just a farce. Yikes, at any rate, it did get us talking!
--
Generic Signature
car...@umassd.edu
>In article <Crq9A...@umassd.edu> car...@umassd.edu writes:
>
>(lots of stuff deleted)
>
>>(the Pasteur, being a new ship was designed with quartrinary warp from
>> the get-go and was able to achieve it with only two nacells).
>
>Only one problem to completely blow your warp bubble. (sorry for the
>pun) That us that the Pasteur altough being a "hope" class seems also
>to be a modified deadalous class starship. More than likely a class
>somewhere between the deadalous and the first streamlined starships
>like the constitution class. More than likely the Pasteur was older
>than the Enterprise D and even than the originial enterprise.
Maybe. Maybe the design was supposed to be better for a medical ship for some
reason. The guys who design the models are human, not vulcan, so there's
probably very little logic in how they design them.
Michael M. Welch
Russell Stewart <dia...@mack.einet.com> wrote:
>
>Hmm... I guess I can accept that. I just get annoyed when an audience decides
>to supersede the writers. I mean, it SAYS that at Warp 10, you move from
>point A to point B instantly. My question is: why? Does anyone here have a
>perfect understanding of warp theory? Of course not, because it's fictional.
>And I am more inclined to believe that the warp 13 thing was just a redef-
>inition of the scale, but if the writers collectively decide to say,
>"Okay, the Warp 10 barrier was finally broken because of <tech>", I'll
>say, "All right. It's your show." Because, even though it is *science*
>fiction, it is still fiction, and to me, plot, storyline, and character are
>more important than <tech>.
>Now, don't get me wrong. I enjoy speculating on these things just as much as
>you do, but it's important to realize that we don't own the show -- Paramount
>does. And we can't be defining absolutes for them if they don't want us to.
No argument from me on that point. All of these posts about Warp 10
being "infinite speed" are using the information provided by the show's
technical consultants in the technical manual. Of course, if, in the fu-
ture, they decide they want to do something contrary to that manual, they
can. If they do, you are absolutely correct that we would have to say,
"OK. It's your show." However, understand that when it comes to the Warp
10 absolute, we, the ST viewers/net readers, aren't the ones who defined
it. The show's own technical people did.
- Michael
--
Michael Welch
mwe...@netcom.com
car...@umassd.edu
>In article <chrisb.12...@central.keywest.mpgn.com>, Christopher Beattie <chr...@central.keywest.mpgn.com> wrote:
>>In article <Crq9A...@umassd.edu> car...@umassd.edu writes:
>
>>>(the Pasteur, being a new ship was designed with quartrinary warp from
>>> the get-go and was able to achieve it with only two nacells).
>
>The whole 'quartrinary warp' stuff is crap from start to finish
>anyway.
And why is it crap may I ask?
Joshua Bell
Find a reference or justification in any aired episodes, or any
of the reference volumes by the production people who produce
them (Okuda, Okuda, and Sternbach).
Further, the warp formulas usually toted around with this
(v=c*w^n, where n was 3 for TOS and is 'now' 4 or 5 for TNG or
post TNG) are in direct conflict with computations derived from
aired evidence of velocities.
Richard Dale
DM>the one where Barclay becomes Superman), and probably more, where someone
Yeah, and then there are the times where the Enterprise was moved by
an external force a great distance -- Q, the shielded planet
computer.
I like to stick to "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations".
It only "happened" if it was on one of the TV shows -- the books
don't count. In *fiction*? IMHO, anything that is written about
by a duly-authorized person can be said to have happened. Yeah,
there are going to be inconsistencies -- someone may die on the
show, yet be alive in a book. Lord knows the show itself is
full of YATIs, grin.
---
ş DeLuxeı 1.26b #2989 ş Bill Clinton is in Psalms 109:8
D.J.S. Damerell
Russell Stewart <dia...@mack.einet.com> wrote:
>Ansu Mittra (ansum...@delphi.com) wrote:
>: now wait a minute, they say that warp 10 is the limit, well have they ever
>: gone past w10? i dont think they have, so its just theory. and theories
>: can be broken...
>
>Yes, this is what's so ridiculous. Everytime someone suggests that some new
>method may allow faster than Warp 10, 5 billion fanatics shout "NO! IT'S
>IMPOSSIBLE! PERIOD! NO! NO! NO! NO!"
>But there have been at least two episodes ("Where No One has Gone Before" and
>the one where Barclay becomes Superman), and probably more, where someone
>or something has moved the E from point A to point B in a much shorter time
>than it would take at Warp 10. THEREFORE, it is possible. No one can deny
>it.
<bangs head on terminal and screams RTFFAQ!>
Sorry, but no. Warp 10 is an infinite speed - the speeds in these
episodes, while extremely fast, were less than warp 10. Exceeding warp 10
will imply arriving before you left and therefore reverse time travel at
will, which is a Bad Thing.
--
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. Green Card flames to: lca...@win.net
djs...@hermes.cam.ac.uk djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk Use hermes before cus, please.
RL: Trinity College, Cambridge. Have you ssaid 'hisss' today? - S'Relss
Russell Stewart
: it. The show's own technical people did.
Exactly! They defined it, so they can rebuke it. It's their world -- we just
choose to live in it ;-).
car...@umassd.edu
>In article <Crzq0...@umassd.edu>, <car...@umassd.edu> wrote:
>>In article <Jun25.223...@acs.ucalgary.ca>, jsb...@acs.ucalgary.ca (Joshua Bell) writes:
>>>In article <chrisb.12...@central.keywest.mpgn.com>, Christopher Beattie <chr...@central.keywest.mpgn.com> wrote:
>>>>In article <Crq9A...@umassd.edu> car...@umassd.edu writes:
>>>>>(the Pasteur, being a new ship was designed with quartrinary warp from
>>>>> the get-go and was able to achieve it with only two nacells).
>>>The whole 'quartrinary warp' stuff is crap from start to finish
>>>anyway.
>>And why is it crap may I ask?
>
>Find a reference or justification in any aired episodes, or any
>of the reference volumes by the production people who produce
>them (Okuda, Okuda, and Sternbach).
OK, I admit that the info source I got this from isn't exactly canon (a text
file from some guy from Compuserve that based his info part from the tech mans.
and part from his own speculations. I don't remember it offhand, but he may
have been a scientist of some sort. Still, it can be a reasonable explanation
for that, can't it, as there's been no explanation for warp 13 travel anywhere
else.
Thomas Bagwell
: OK, I admit that the info source I got this from isn't exactly canon (a text
: and part from his own speculations. I don't remember it offhand, but he may
: have been a scientist of some sort. Still, it can be a reasonable explanation
: for that, can't it, as there's been no explanation for warp 13 travel anywhere
: else.
What kind of explanation is needed? It all seemed rather obvious to me.
Over the course of the next 30 or so years, warp drives have improved to
the point where the previous warp notation was becoming awkward.
Therefore, the warp scale was revamped to handle the higher velocities
more conveniently that such figures as warp 9.753.
I've never understood the confusion over this whole topic...
Tom Bagwell
ica...@wam.umd.edu
Are you sure you got the years correct?
I though TNG took place in early 24th century.
Joshua Bell
Typo on my part. (2270+25)-2197 is certainly not around 200. :)
That 2270 should be 2370. Sorry for any confusion.
Joshua
--
"You're so weird!" - Simba "You have no idea." - Scar (The Lion King)
Gregg Germain
: light years in one microsecond, you are STILL going *slower* than TNG's
: Warp 10. Why is this so hard to grasp?
It is so hard to grasp because in a TOS episode, they do Warp 20.
--- Gregg
#29 --)-Saville--
gr...@hrc2.harvard.edu "A Mig at your six is better than
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics no Mig at all."
Phone: (617) 496-7713
Brendan Donovan
a vertical asymptote is? If not, please go read an elementary algebra
textbook.
"Accuracy, above all else."
--
Generic Signature
Ben Lincoln
: Michael M. Welch (mwe...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : In short, even if you could come up with a means to move the ship
: : 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
: : light years in one microsecond, you are STILL going *slower* than TNG's
: : Warp 10. Why is this so hard to grasp?
: It is so hard to grasp because in a TOS episode, they do Warp 20.
This was using the TOS warp scale, which means that the TOS warp 13 (or
however fast they were going, I forget the exact number) equals like 8.6
on the TNG (Warp 10 = infinite) scale
:
: --- Gregg
Thomas Bagwell
: Michael M. Welch (mwe...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : In short, even if you could come up with a means to move the ship
: : 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
: : light years in one microsecond, you are STILL going *slower* than TNG's
: : Warp 10. Why is this so hard to grasp?
: It is so hard to grasp because in a TOS episode, they do Warp 20.
Actually, I think 14.1 is the best they ever managed in TOS. And, as has
been stated many times and many ways, they changed the scale between TOS
and TNG. In TNG, the equivalent to the old warp 14.1 would probably be
around warp 9.4 or so. Why is this so hard to grasp?
Tom Bagwell
Michael M. Welch
Gregg Germain <gr...@hrc2.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Michael M. Welch (mwe...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In short, even if you could come up with a means to move the ship
>: 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
>: light years in one microsecond, you are STILL going *slower* than TNG's
>: Warp 10. Why is this so hard to grasp?
>
>
> It is so hard to grasp because in a TOS episode, they do Warp 20.
1) They never do Warp 20 in any TOS episode. Try Warps 13, 14, 15
or so. Yes, that's still greater than Warp 10, but . . .
2) The TOS Warp scale has almost nothing to do with the TNG Warp
scale. You'll note that I said you're still going slower that
*TNG's* Warp 10.
3) Please try reading the FAQ before you post to the net. You
would have found this information there.
Daniel Sutliff
>Does anyone who thinks it is possible to go faster than warp 10 know what
>a vertical asymptote is? If not, please go read an elementary algebra
>textbook.
>
>"Accuracy, above all else."
Does anyone thinks it is IMpossible to go faster than warp 10 know what
a recalibration is? If not, please go read an elementary instrumentation
textbook.
"Understanding, above all else."
.
Michael J. Krivacek
representation of the power output than a fixed velocity. The reason
warp 10 was the limit was because the current (relative to STTNG)
technology proposed that warp power was an exponential function whose
limit approached infinity at warp 10.
There is no reason therefore, that in the future, possibly with more
nacells (sp?) or similar improvements, the warp function could approach
infinity at a higher number (warp 20?).
Well that's my $.02. And no, I am not as much a geek as this post may
seen to indicate.
--
****************************************************************************|
| "A revolution every now and | "To preserve liberty, it is essential that |
| then is a healthy thing" | the whole body of people possess arms, and |
|*****************************| be taught alike especially when young, how |
| USF does not tell me what | to use them." |
| to say, and I don't tell | -Richard Henry Lee, initiator of the |
| them how to run their | Declaration of Independance, member of |
| university. | 1st Senate which passed the Bill of Rights|
****************************************************************************|
DAN FLETT
>>: gone past w10? i dont think they have, so its just theory. and theories
>>: can be broken...
>>
>>Yes, this is what's so ridiculous. Everytime someone suggests that some new
>>method may allow faster than Warp 10, 5 billion fanatics shout "NO! IT'S
>>IMPOSSIBLE! PERIOD! NO! NO! NO! NO!"
>>But there have been at least two episodes ("Where No One has Gone Before" and
>>the one where Barclay becomes Superman), and probably more, where someone
>>or something has moved the E from point A to point B in a much shorter time
>>than it would take at Warp 10. THEREFORE, it is possible. No one can deny
>>it.
D> Sorry, but no. Warp 10 is an infinite speed - the speeds in
D> these episodes, while extremely fast, were less than warp 10.
D> Exceeding warp 10 will imply arriving before you left and
D> therefore reverse time travel at will, which is a Bad Thing.
D> --
D> David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. Green Card flames to:
D> lca...@win.net djs...@hermes.cam.ac.uk djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk
D> Use hermes before cus, please. RL: Trinity College, Cambridge.
D> Have you ssaid 'hisss' today? - S'Relss
It is quite true that Warp 10 is infinite speed. However, this
measurement is purely arbitrary. It CAN be changed! If federation
engineers, for whatever reason, decide that some other number (say
223.7753) should be infinite speed, then there's nothing wrong with
that. In TOS, warp 10 wasn't infinite speed, and I think that the way
warp factors were measured were not exponential, but linear. So warp
infinity = infinite speed in TOS. (Gene Roddenberry was the one with
the idea about Warp 10 = infinite speed)
If you reply to this, keep in mind that I've only seen TNG episodes up
to halfway through season 5, so you will probaly know something that I
don't!
Dan Flett
... Nnnnnnnooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Taki Kogoma
rec.arts.startrek.tech:
Because our amp goes to 11.
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk - kog...@unm.edu | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
Retired 'Secret Master of | superior to what I have now."
rec.arts.startrek' | -- Gym Quirk
Jay Windley
[stuff about recalibration versus stuff about asymptotic behavior.]
It's been amply argued that TOS and TNG use a different warp scale.
The TNG scale was invented not by Sternbach and Okuda, but by
Roddenberry himself. The Great Bird wanted warp 10 to be infinite
speed.
The Technical Manual has the graphic we've all waved in the air for
three years. Basically, the TNG warp scale establishes velocity as
follows: Warp 0 is stationary (with respect to what?), warp 1 is the
speed of light, and warp 10 is (asymptotically) infinite speed. There
is a table of velocity values for each of the integral warp factors,
with warp 9 begin around 1500 times the speed of light. Obviously
there is a big jump between warp 9 and warp 10, encompassing a large
range of velocity values (in fact, an infinite number -- think about
it).
This graphic also gives us the energy output required from the engine
in order to attain that warp factor. Three things are noteworthy.
First, the power requirement is infinite at warp 10 (this follows).
Second, the power output is given in megajoules per cochrane. A
(fictional) cochrane is the amount of subspace field stress required
to advance your velocity one multiple of the speed of light, meaning
power requirements advance *dramatically* with an increase in speed.
Accelerating means you have to pay more power just to maintain the
velocity you already had, in addition to the new velocity. Actually
it works a little like aerodynamic pressure on modern airframes, and
there is sufficient handwaving in the manual to establish why this
effect exists in the vacuum of space.
Third, at each integral warp factor, the power requirement drops
instantly, so that the power curve resembles a sawblade. This
indicates that it requires less power to travel at integral warp
factors than fractional ones. That is, it may use less power to go
warp 6 than it does to go warp 5.5.
Okay, that's how we've been treating warp factors up until now. The
way I see it, we can do one of two things.
We've been told that no matter what ends up in print, what we see on
the show is canonical. So on that basis we should say that the Tech
Manual is wrong on the subect of warp factors, and warp 10 isn't
infinite velocity. But then we have to resolve Riker's statement that
exceeding warp 10 induced time travel. Besides, it's not likely that
Sternbach and Okuda -- who labored so hard to make warp usage as
consistent as possible -- would have thrown it all out for the final
episode.
The other option would simply be another recalibration of the warp
scale. Since the final episode takes place in the future, this isn't
so out of the question. We can surmise that as warp engines got more
efficient, starships spent more time traveling in the region between
warp 9 and warp 10, and it got inconvenient to order "warp nine point
whatever" all the time.
There are several references to warp factor being a specification of
speed (e.g., Wesley in "The Most Toys" and the decoy in "Arsenal of
Freedom"), independent of the design of the warp drive. The sawtooth
character of the warp drive power consumption curve is then a natural
phenomenon, not an engineering phenomenon. (e.g., Mach 1 is the same
speed whether your engine was made by Pratt and Whitney or by General
Electric.) So it isn't really a good idea to say that different
engines give us different warp factors.
How about this: Because starships now spend so much time traveling in
the warp 9.x region, the warp factors 10-20 in the new scale
(arbitrarily) are mapped to warp 9.1, 9.2, ... 10 in the original TNG
scale. When Capt. (Beverly) Picard orders warp 13, in the original
TNG scale they are going warp 9.3.
Next time Sternbach or Okuda is at a convention, somebody pin 'em
down!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Windley * University of Utah * Salt Lake City
jwin...@asylum.cs.utah.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chung, Peter W.
>sutl...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Daniel Sutliff) writes:
>[stuff about recalibration versus stuff about asymptotic behavior.]
[snip.]
>
>
>Okay, that's how we've been treating warp factors up until now. The
>way I see it, we can do one of two things.
>
>We've been told that no matter what ends up in print, what we see on
>the show is canonical. So on that basis we should say that the Tech
>Manual is wrong on the subect of warp factors, and warp 10 isn't
>infinite velocity. But then we have to resolve Riker's statement that
>exceeding warp 10 induced time travel. Besides, it's not likely that
^^^^^^^^^
is that what he said? Does anyone happen to have Time Squared
on tape because I thought (here's where I get into trouble) Riker said
the Warp 10 Breakaway maneuver, not necessarily exceeding warp 10. If
this is the case then Warp 10 as an infinite speed (even implied) is
still very, very ambiguous (onscreen that is). I do believe in recalibration,
but Warp 10 as infinite speed in TNG, no hard evidence... oh well.
Thomas Bagwell
: Because our amp goes to 11.
More power to you.
--
tbag...@netcom.com
Robert Hess
>: I know the
>: reason the Enterprise of the future was able to travel at Warp 13.....
>: TRANSWARP!!!!!
>
...of course, the real answer is that the federation of the future still
lives under the 'warp speed limit' rule. But since so many people were
dispondent at having to travel so slowly, they simply shifted all of the
numbers on the warp graph. This new graph was designed so that warps
>= 10 were now possible. This was an attempt to get people so excited
about being able to reach warp 13, that they wouldn't notice that they
in fact were only traveling at warp 3.1.
Unfortunately, the scheme backfires, and the Federation gets so
pleased with their sudden advance in technology, that they slow down
on other research efforts, and in 25 years, the Pakleds take over.
-Robert
Michael M. Welch
Michael J. Krivacek <kriv...@cfrrisc1.cfr.usf.edu> wrote:
>From what I have read/heard/seen the warp factor 10,9,etc is more a
>representation of the power output than a fixed velocity. The reason
>warp 10 was the limit was because the current (relative to STTNG)
>technology proposed that warp power was an exponential function whose
>limit approached infinity at warp 10.
>
>There is no reason therefore, that in the future, possibly with more
>nacells (sp?) or similar improvements, the warp function could approach
>infinity at a higher number (warp 20?).
According to the tech manual, the warp factor is a measure of the
warp field intensity. Warp field intensity is measured in cochranes,
and cochrane values correspond directly to apparent velocities (so, a
warp field intensity of 5 cochranes = an apparent velocity of 5 times
c). The power output necessary is a function of the cochrane value.
Therefore, technological improvements involving power efficiency
or how much power can be supplied could only change the formula for
converting from cochranes to power output. It would *not* change the
conversion from warp factor number to cochrane value (and then to ap-
parent velocity). Thus, Warp 10 would still be the upper limit.
DAN FLETT
G> Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge,
G> MA, USA Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 16:05:10 GMT
G> Michael M. Welch (mwe...@netcom.com) wrote:
G> : In short, even if you could come up with a means to move
G> the ship :
G> 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
G> 00,000 : light years in one microsecond, you are STILL going
G> *slower* than TNG's : Warp 10. Why is this so hard to grasp?
G> It is so hard to grasp because in a TOS episode, they do Warp
G> 20.
ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE WARP SCALE WAS DIFFERENT IN TOS!!!!!!!!!!
WARP 10 WAS NOT INFINITY IN TOS!!!!!!!!!!!
ARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
Dan
... You're so ugly you could be a modern art masterpiece!
Tim Meushaw
: G> It is so hard to grasp because in a TOS episode, they do Warp
: ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
: THE WARP SCALE WAS DIFFERENT IN TOS!!!!!!!!!!
: WARP 10 WAS NOT INFINITY IN TOS!!!!!!!!!!!
: ARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
Nah, it couldn't be what I think it is...this COULDN'T be someone
who's actually READ the other posts on here, can it? I mean, we've
all seen just about EVERYONE who posts saying how much faster they
went in TOS, and all the other posts saying how they changed the
scale. I don't understand what's so difficult to understand; and to
be nitpicky, they never went warp 20; 'just' warp 14. WHICH IS ON A
DIFFERENT SCALE THAN TNG!!! I mean, we've seen graphs posted here
with the comparisons. Seems like we've got to start flooding people's
mailboxes with these comparisons if they can't read before posting.
So, if you must post this kind of thing, please put a smiley so we
know you're joking. If you're NOT joking, however, then go back under
your rock and go back into hibernation for 25 years, when they change
the scale back.
--
------------------------
Timothy A. Meushaw (tme...@gl.umbc.edu)
University of Maryland, Baltimore County
"May whatever god you believe in have mercy on your soul."
Gregg Germain
: Tom Bagwell
Because, Tom, this explanation smacks of artifice. WHO said the scale
was changed?
Gregg Germain
: Gregg Germain <gr...@hrc2.harvard.edu> wrote:
: >Michael M. Welch (mwe...@netcom.com) wrote:
: >: In short, even if you could come up with a means to move the ship
: >: 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
: >: light years in one microsecond, you are STILL going *slower* than TNG's
: >: Warp 10. Why is this so hard to grasp?
: >
: >
: > It is so hard to grasp because in a TOS episode, they do Warp 20.
: 1) They never do Warp 20 in any TOS episode. Try Warps 13, 14, 15
: or so. Yes, that's still greater than Warp 10, but . . .
They didn't do warp 20 with the NOMAD show? Coulda sworn they did warp 20
: 2) The TOS Warp scale has almost nothing to do with the TNG Warp
: scale. You'll note that I said you're still going slower that
: *TNG's* Warp 10.
: 3) Please try reading the FAQ before you post to the net. You
: would have found this information there.
I wasn't looking for information - I was providing some. And the next
time i see the Nomad episode I'll be listening very carefully.
Gregg Germain
: We've been told that no matter what ends up in print, what we see on
: the show is canonical. So on that basis we should say that the Tech
: Manual is wrong on the subect of warp factors, and warp 10 isn't
: infinite velocity. But then we have to resolve Riker's statement that
: exceeding warp 10 induced time travel. Besides, it's not likely that
: Sternbach and Okuda -- who labored so hard to make warp usage as
: consistent as possible -- would have thrown it all out for the final
: episode.
If Sternbach and Okuda's work is ignored by the very show they
labor on I wouldn't put too much faith in their manual as canon - or the show
for that matter. It's hard to find consistency even WITHIN the shows.
: The other option would simply be another recalibration of the warp
: scale. Since the final episode takes place in the future, this isn't
: so out of the question. We can surmise that as warp engines got more
: efficient, starships spent more time traveling in the region between
: warp 9 and warp 10, and it got inconvenient to order "warp nine point
: whatever" all the time.
Gregg Germain
: Nah, it couldn't be what I think it is...this COULDN'T be someone
: who's actually READ the other posts on here, can it? I mean, we've
: all seen just about EVERYONE who posts saying how much faster they
: went in TOS, and all the other posts saying how they changed the
: scale. I don't understand what's so difficult to understand; and to
: be nitpicky, they never went warp 20; 'just' warp 14. WHICH IS ON A
: DIFFERENT SCALE THAN TNG!!! I mean, we've seen graphs posted here
: with the comparisons. Seems like we've got to start flooding people's
: mailboxes with these comparisons if they can't read before posting.
: So, if you must post this kind of thing, please put a smiley so we
: know you're joking. If you're NOT joking, however, then go back under
: your rock and go back into hibernation for 25 years, when they change
: the scale back.
You know, Timothy, I can handle people not enjoying seeing the same
arguments all over the newsgroups. But your last 2 sentences mark you as
quite a nasty character.
Let me clue you in on something, ok? Call it a public service:
As difficult as it might seem to some of you, not EVERYONE who reads
this newsgroup is REALLY REALLY REALLY into Star Trek.
Not Everyone in here has the time or inclination to read the FAQs.
And what of those people?
I can here your fingers sizzling now......
"If you have no time or incination to read the FAQs then what are you
doing replying to an entry????"
Again, as a public service:
One does not have to be an expert, or have the time or inclination to BE an
expert to lodge a reply.
If you can't take that, tough. Learn to live with it somehow. People make
mistakes. If you can't take that, tough.
People aren't going to read the FAQs cuz they're only moderately interested
in the whole thing.
Can't handle that? Tough,
Cuz what are you gonna say? That a person should NOT enter anything unless
they've read everything on the topic under discussion?
That's utter nonsense and not how the rest of the world works.
That *IS*, I'll admit, how nasty, insensitive, egotistical, self-inflated,
factoid elitist groups operate.....
But I kinda figured this newsgroup was a kinder gentler group.
Maybe I was wrong?
Lastly, A third public service to you:
As difficult as it may seem to you to believe, there is no one source of
TRUE and UNASSAILABLE information concerning how things work in this
fictional universe. Add to that the ALL TOO CLEAR tendency of the writers
to throw away consistency for dramatic impact even in the ONE area where
EVERYONE agrees it's canon: the shows.
Add on top of THAT the simple fact that as one reads the replies here, it's
VERY difficult - unless you are an expert - to determine whether a person
is saying something they THINK is the case or has been stated is the case.
A clear example is the ability for some people here to state - QUITE
authoritatively - that they *DID* a warp rescale for AGT.
Of course, I feel it necessary to point out that if it *IS*
a resacele, it is being done TOTALLY OPPOSITE every rescaling "done" in the
past.
Because before they felt it necessary to keep the max number at 10.
This time the rescale allows numbers GREATER than 10. But sily me - all
you "EXPERTEN" obviously know best and we imbeciles shouldn't deign to
question you......
Fact is no one said that other than the speculators here. yet it is written
in a reply as if it's THE case and "will people PLEASE stop arguing
against that???!!!!" [I paraphrase]
So given that the universe under question is fictional:
that it is internally inconsistent even within the tv shows
that a LOT of what is written in here is speculative
get down off your high horse and live with the mortals again.
Gregg Germain
: sutl...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Daniel Sutliff) writes:
: [stuff about recalibration versus stuff about asymptotic behavior.]
: It's been amply argued that TOS and TNG use a different warp scale.
: The TNG scale was invented not by Sternbach and Okuda, but by
: Roddenberry himself. The Great Bird wanted warp 10 to be infinite
: speed.
: The other option would simply be another recalibration of the warp
: scale. Since the final episode takes place in the future, this isn't
: so out of the question. We can surmise that as warp engines got more
: efficient, starships spent more time traveling in the region between
: warp 9 and warp 10, and it got inconvenient to order "warp nine point
: whatever" all the time.
How can one assume that the Warp 13 of AGT is another rescaling
when all the previous "rescales" adhered to the Roddenberry Warp 10 limit?
Michael M. Welch
Gregg Germain <gr...@hrc2.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Michael M. Welch (mwe...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: 1) They never do Warp 20 in any TOS episode. Try Warps 13, 14, 15
>: or so.
>
>
>
Nope.
>: 3) Please try reading the FAQ before you post to the net. You
>: would have found this information there.
>
> I wasn't looking for information - I was providing some.
You were providing *incorrect* information. You probably would have
known this if you had read the FAQ. Your basic point has been mentioned
many times before. Again, you probably would have known this if you had
read the FAQ. This is why it is good netiquette to read a group's FAQ(s)
before you post to that group.
> And the next
>time i see the Nomad episode I'll be listening very carefully.
If you hear "Warp 20", run to the ear doctor, quickly!. 8-)
Michael M. Welch
Gregg Germain <gr...@hrc2.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Thomas Bagwell (tbag...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Actually, I think 14.1 is the best they ever managed in TOS. And, as has
>: been stated many times and many ways, they changed the scale between TOS
>: and TNG. In TNG, the equivalent to the old warp 14.1 would probably be
>: around warp 9.4 or so. Why is this so hard to grasp?
>
>: Tom Bagwell
>
> Because, Tom, this explanation smacks of artifice. WHO said the scale
>was changed?
Gene Roddenberry did.
Jay Windley
>
> Because, Tom, this explanation smacks of artifice. WHO said the scale
>was changed?
Sternbach and Okuda said that Roddenberry changed the scale. He
wanted warp 10 to be an absolute upper limit.
Jay Windley
>
> If Sternbach and Okuda's work is ignored by the very show they
>labor on I wouldn't put too much faith in their manual as canon - or the show
>for that matter. It's hard to find consistency even WITHIN the shows.
Oh, I agree there. For them it's not a primary goal. I suspect that
if the producers had their way, we'd all ooh and ahh over the
well-written stories, the lively dialogue, and the skillful handling
of complex social issues. (Ow, tongue got stuck in my cheek) But
being the techno-dweebs that we are, we want consistent,
well-conceived answers to how the Enterprise(tm) crew goes about doing
what it does every week (e.g., use the bathroom).
The problem with that is than in order to do it, you have to think
everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) out ahead of time. You can't leave
anything undefined. Most writers don't want to work in that
environment. They want to push the envelope and explore the outer
fringes of the Star Trek universe. That is, they don't want to work
in it; they want to help define it.
So the technical aspects are briefly and generally defined, and then
the specifics are invented by the writers as needed, subject of course
to the approval of the technical directors. And as these little
tidbits are incorporated into the Treknological lore, our picture of
their technology becomes more rigid and tightly defined.
Then the writers get their pens in a tizzy, because they come with
(what they think is) a great story idea, but it's impossible because
some arbitrary decision was made two seasons ago, and now the
"technology" doesn't allow for it.
I've always approached the Tech Manual as a sort of proto-canon. That
is, technology will generally follow what's laid out there, but it's
not etched in stone. If a story needs something that isn't there, or
needs something NOT to be there, it happens.
Jason W. Hinson
>
> How can one assume that the Warp 13 of AGT is another rescaling
>when all the previous "rescales" adhered to the Roddenberry Warp 10 limit?
It's basically just a bit of reasoning. First, you should realize
that there has only been one rescale (from TOS to TNG), and
Roddenberry simply indicated that he wanted warp 10 to be the upper
limit. We have read in the tech manual and it has been indicated on
the show that warp 10 corresponds to infinite speed. In addition, the
technical advisers to the show explained the warp 10 thing by saying
that the new TNG warp had 9 points at which the power requirement for
those particular warp speeds was lowest. These points are where the
integer warp values were defined according to the technical advisers
for the show.
Now, when warp 13 shows up in AGT, what seems to be the most
reasonable explaination for it? Are we to assume that it is actually
FASTER than warp 10 as defined in the current TNG scale? If so, then
warp 13 would have to be travel back in time. That doesn't seem very
likely in that they didn't indicate any type of time travel going on
in the show (and think of the options they would have for taking care
of problems if they could just travel back in time).
The only other explaination (unless you have another one to offer) is
that the scale isn't the same anymore. Perhaps they found a way to
make at least 13 warp values at which the power requierments were low.
Perhaps they just found a way to get a lot of power and just got tired
of saying "warp 9.92, no wait, I ment 9.992" and so they changed the
warp scale to make it easier to use.
The bottom line is that you have two choices: (1) they were traveling
back in time, or (2) the warp scale they were using didn't define warp
10 as infinite speed (which means it is not the scale they have been
using throughout TNG). The second choice just seems more reasonable.
It's really just a bit of reasoning.
-Jay
PAT
Data : But Sir!
Picard: Is there a problem?
Data : Sir, we've already arived.
Picard: Where?
Data : Yes.
*************************************************
Don't think too hard. You'll wear out your Brain
*************************************************
Jim Jagielski
>gr...@hrc2.harvard.edu (Gregg Germain) writes:
>>
>> Because, Tom, this explanation smacks of artifice. WHO said the scale
>>was changed?
>Sternbach and Okuda said that Roddenberry changed the scale. He
>wanted warp 10 to be an absolute upper limit.
It seems to me that 'All Good Things' went out of it's way to snub it's
nose at Gene Roddenberry. As mentioned above, Gene _insisted_ that Warp 10
be the absolute maximum - Boom, we get Warp 13. Also, Gene _insisted_
that all Fed starships have an _even_ number of nacelles - Boom, we get the
Ent D+ with 3...
Pretty poor taste if you ask me...
--
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
| Jim Jagielski | j...@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov | V: 301 286-5964 |
| NASA/GSFC, Code 734.4 | Greenbelt, MD 20771 | F: 301 286-1719 |
<< "I need God, not the political church... >>
-- Sam Phillips: Martinis & Bikinis
mike...@options.sgi.com
In "Where No Man Has Gone Before" from season one....
Geordi states "We're going past Warp 10"
Picard later states that "that's because no one has gone this fast before"
Not to say that they didn't time-travel or such....
Just addin' fuel to the fire, I believe it was dying down ;)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael Stegbauer - MikeS - stegbau...@tandem.com - formerly mikesteg
Tandem On-Line Support Center, Austin, TX - TNSC UNIX Support Analyst
1992 Laser RS AWD, Red - 1993 750 Nighthawk, Blue - trekkie(TOS,TNG,DS9,V)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Timothy Miller
things being discussed here.... like warp drive and some ST happenings that
I'm not familiar with (presumably from novels I've not read), etc.
Timothy Miller
dropping at integral warp factors.
Why?
If the warp scale is just a mapping of Warp 1 to c and Warp 10 asymptotically
to infinity, then integral warp factors would not necessarily have any bearing
on nature.
So, if the scale WERE saw-toothed (which makes no sense), then the drops would
not necessarily fall on integral warp factors.
Joshua Bell
>Someone mentioned that the warp scale is saw-toothed with power requirements
>dropping at integral warp factors.
>
>Why?
Tech Manual, page 55, also reproduced in the Warp Mini-FAQ.
Posted less than a week ago. Right there at the start for you to
read. Don't you feel dumb now? :)
>If the warp scale is just a mapping of Warp 1 to c and Warp 10 asymptotically
>to infinity, then integral warp factors would not necessarily have any bearing
>on nature.
True, but then there's no reason for them to use such a scale, is
there? Besides, it isn't a simple formula like v=c*(1/(10-W)).
>So, if the scale WERE saw-toothed (which makes no sense), then the drops would
>not necessarily fall on integral warp factors.
But they do since the formula isn't trivial, and the scale is
designed around the "dips".
Joshua
--
"You're so weird!" - Simba "You have no idea." - Scar (The Lion King)
<jsb...@acs.ucalgary.ca> University Computing Services, University of Calgary
Joshua Bell
>hate to bring this up, I'm sure somebody already has,but...
>In "Where No Man Has Gone Before" from season one....
>Geordi states "We're going past Warp 10"
>Picard later states that "that's because no one has gone this fast before"
>Not to say that they didn't time-travel or such....
Sounds just like what you'd expect from going off the scale (into
the Warp 9.99999999996 range given in the Tech Manual) - a
screwey reading.
Joshua
Joshua Bell
Novels are not canon (I've never read any other than the Star
Trek Logs 1-9 by Alan Dean Foster, and that's only 'cause I
wanted to see TAS but couldn't find it on tape anywhere here), so
you're not missing anything and most of what is discussed doesn't
include anything they specifically mention.
My Mini-FAQs are available in your news spool (they shouldn't
have expired yet) or from ftp://ftp.cc.umanitoba.ca/startrek/minifaqs
Jay Windley
>
>It seems to me that 'All Good Things' went out of it's way to snub it's
>nose at Gene Roddenberry.
You're not the only one who got this impression. I seemed to get the
feeling that they kept up with Roddenberry's ideal through the last
episode, then said "Now we're going to do it our way."
You don't need warp 13. One major concern was to keep the galaxy
large enough to provide endless adventure. The top speed of the
Enterprise was chosen so that it could get somewhere reasonably fast,
but not get EVERYWHERE reasonably fast. If going to the Gamma
Quadrant suddenly turns into a commuter trip, going where no one has
gone before is going to prove difficult in the AGT time frame.
Personally, I thought the Enterprise looked pretty damn silly in AGT
with that extra nacelle super-glued onto the back. It reminded me of
some of the early technical manuals with speculations on other
starship classes. Some of them had more nacelles than blenders have
buttons. It's silly.
I don't think going outside Roddenberry's directives is necessarily
bad. Frankly, the guy is dead and there's someone else at the helm
whose creativity has to be considered too. And I don't necessarily
agree with everything that Roddenberry put in the Star Trek universe
(e.g., no more poverty). But ST:TNG was Roddenberry's. He thought it
up; he made it work. Piller and Berman have DS9 and the upcoming
Voyager, both series that Roddenberry had nothing to do with, in which
to exercise their creativity. The departures in AGT just smacked too
much of a parting shot, and a cheap one at that.
Add to this the fact that Majel Barrett was not cast in AGT or in the
upcoming motion picture. She's not happy about it. She's been part
of every Trek venture since "The Cage" and it seems that Piller and
Berman have written her out of the equation.
Of course, none of us really has any idea what it was like to work
with Roddenberry, so prejudice may play a part here. Who can tell?
Thomas Bagwell
: Because, Tom, this explanation smacks of artifice. WHO said the scale
: was changed?
It's the simplest, most logical, least contrived explanation. Attempts
to redefine infinity are the explanations that smack of artifice.
Tom B.
Thomas Bagwell
: How can one assume that the Warp 13 of AGT is another rescaling
: when all the previous "rescales" adhered to the Roddenberry Warp 10 limit?
What other warp rescales? There was a rescale between the movies and
TNG. Apparently there's one between the present TNG and the future
represented in AGT. Roddenberry had no warp 10 limit in TOS or the
movies. He did want it as a limit in TNG.
So, what other warp rescales?
Tom B.
Gregg Germain
: Tom B.
That still doesn't make the explanation remotely true.
And when people SCREAM that it's the ONLY way it can be and tell people who
don't agree to clamber back under the rock they came from, I'm inclined
to dismiss their intelligence.
And whoever said anything about re-defining Infinity. I know i haven't....
Jason W. Hinson
>Someone mentioned that the warp scale is saw-toothed with power requirements
>dropping at integral warp factors.
>
>Why?
FIrst, note that it is the power consumption that drops there, not the
speed. This could be because the field is naturally more efficient at
those points. To see my personal explanation for this, read my recent
post (which will become a monthly post) called "Subspace Physics."
>If the warp scale is just a mapping of Warp 1 to c and Warp 10 asymptotically
>to infinity, then integral warp factors would not necessarily have any bearing
>on nature.
Again, it is the power that drops, not the speed.
>
>So, if the scale WERE saw-toothed (which makes no sense), then the drops would
>not necessarily fall on integral warp factors.
The way I understand it, the fact that it drops is the REASON why the
integral warp factors were defined there. That way, you could say
"warp 5" and know that you were traveling at a rather efficient warp
speed.
-Jay
solstice
Yup, according to the standards now for warp speed, warp 10 is infinity
speed. In short, you are everywhere at once. You can spout off any
speed you want, but the max POSSIBLE... not reachable... is warp 10. The
future that Picard saw must have changed the warp configuration. Because
at warp 13, the Enterprise-E (?) was not everywhere at once. Maybe they
changed the warp theory around the basis of the subspace pocket problem.
The subspace problem may have changed the whole warp theory. I think the
ships were going kinda fast for someone still under the warp 6
interdicion.
Just picking my brain... it needs to be kneaded.
Solstice--Keeper of Dark and Light (tm)
solstice
actually, the dreadnaughts from the classic series had 3 nacelles.
looked a bunch like the Enterprise-E.
solstice
> Someone mentioned that the warp scale is saw-toothed with power requirements
> dropping at integral warp factors.
>
> Why?
>
> If the warp scale is just a mapping of Warp 1 to c and Warp 10 asymptotically
> to infinity, then integral warp factors would not necessarily have any bearin
> on nature.
>
> So, if the scale WERE saw-toothed (which makes no sense), then the drops woul
> not necessarily fall on integral warp factors.
>
No, the saw tooth scale represents the amount of energy required for a
warpfield compared to the warp field itself. It gets harder to maintain
a warp field the higher it gets to the next highest warp. Then, once the
next highest warp is reached, the tension eases.... Wanna know why?
Skim the tech manual in the bookstore, Im too lazy to type the whole
thing.
bye
Taki Kogoma
rec.arts.startrek.tech:
>actually, the dreadnaughts from the classic series had 3 nacelles.
>looked a bunch like the Enterprise-E.
ObCanon: What dreadnoughts from TOS?
You mean the 3-nacelle monster from Franz Joseph's _Star Fleet
Technical Manual_ and SFB? Sorry, inadmissible for reasons of
non-canon source.
(Then why is the TNG Tech Manual being used as a 'Canon' source?
Check the authors and compare to the TNG production staff list.)
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk - kog...@unm.edu | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
Retired 'Secret Master of | superior to what I have now."
rec.arts.startrek' | -- Gym Quirk
Jim Jagielski
>j...@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Jagielski) writes:
>> jwin...@sal.cs.utah.edu (Jay Windley) writes:
>>
>> >gr...@hrc2.harvard.edu (Gregg Germain) writes:
>> >>
>> >> Because, Tom, this explanation smacks of artifice. WHO said the scale
>> >>was changed?
>>
>> >Sternbach and Okuda said that Roddenberry changed the scale. He
>> >wanted warp 10 to be an absolute upper limit.
>>
>> It seems to me that 'All Good Things' went out of it's way to snub it's
>> nose at Gene Roddenberry. As mentioned above, Gene _insisted_ that Warp 10
>> be the absolute maximum - Boom, we get Warp 13. Also, Gene _insisted_
>> that all Fed starships have an _even_ number of nacelles - Boom, we get the
>> Ent D+ with 3...
>>
>> Pretty poor taste if you ask me...
>actually, the dreadnaughts from the classic series had 3 nacelles.
>looked a bunch like the Enterprise-E.
And their transport tug and just one...
And Gene hated the way they looked... That's why he decided that _all_ fed
ships must have even numbers of nacelles. This was in a StarLog magazine
quite a few years ago... I'll see if I can dig it up.
BenS951
Stewart) writes:
Yes, this is what's so ridiculous. Everytime someone suggests that some
new
method may allow faster than Warp 10, 5 billion fanatics shout "NO! IT'S
IMPOSSIBLE! PERIOD! NO! NO! NO! NO!"
But there have been at least two episodes ("Where No One has Gone Before"
and
the one where Barclay becomes Superman), and probably more, where someone
or something has moved the E from point A to point B in a much shorter
time
than it would take at Warp 10. THEREFORE, it is possible. No one can deny
it.
At Warp 10 it wouldn't take any time to get from point A to point B. You'd
be at both places at the same time!
-= Ben =-
BenS951
Germain) writes:
Michael M. Welch (mwe...@netcom.com) wrote:
: In short, even if you could come up with a means to move the ship
: 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
: light years in one microsecond, you are STILL going *slower* than TNG's
: Warp 10. Why is this so hard to grasp?
It is so hard to grasp because in a TOS episode, they do Warp 20.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< smashing head against keyboard >>
They used a different warp scale in TOS. There's plenty of posts around
that contain the two different formulas used. You CANNOT directly compare
TOS and TNG!
-= Ben =-
Thomas Bagwell
BenS951
Bagwell) writes:
>Somebody, anybody.... shoot me now. Please.
Only if you shoot me too....
-= ben...@aol.com =-
MorkJr
The writer of "All Good Things..." was probably so bass akwards when it
came to tech (most writers are <G>) that he didn't know any better. This
is one screw up for the ages.
-Dan Attreed
Thomas Bagwell
EJHall
Bagwell) writes:
> Screw up? I saw no error...
I tend to agree. I realize that the ST-TNG Tech Manual says that the
maximum warp speed limit is 10 but I think what happened is that, as warp
engines improved, the scale was recalibrated for ease of use.
So instead of warp 9.7, they'd say warp 10. Instead of warp 9.8 they'd say
warp 11, instead of warp 9.997 they'd say warp 25. Something like that.
Either that or somebody screwed up. As we well know, they don't catch
everything. Even Q makes mistakes :-)
-Ed
--
Ed Hall edh...@eworld.com or ejh...@aol.com
"qaStaHvlS wa' ram loS SaD Hugh SijlaH qetbogh loD" -tlhIngan proverb
Jason Grosman
upper limit. There's no reason that they didn't change the scale from
The Next Generation to the Next Next Generation to make another number
the upper limit. Warp engines obviously got better, you couldn't keep
going Warp 9.999 and then Warp 9.9999 and so on. That would get confusing.
Hence, Warp 13 and up.
Easy.
Jason
Kilian Hekhuis
This huge text was posted to the STREK-D mailing list yesterday. It was
sent in 5 parts, and I haven't deleted the headers in bewtween parts, but
you can do that yourselfs of course |-). Anyway, it explains the full warp
theory, including the mathematics involved.
Have fun,
Jason A. Leigh
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Kilian Hekhuis a.k.a. Jason A. Leigh" <KHEK...@hut.nl>
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From: IN%"STR...@PCCVM.bitnet" "Star Trek Fan Club (Digests)" 13-SEP-1994 21:44:50.14
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Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 09:35:38 -0300
From: "Ashley Rivet (Ashley Rivet)" <nstn...@FOX.NSTN.NS.CA>
Subject: StarTrek Technology Part One
Sender: "Star Trek Fan Club (Digests)" <STR...@PCCVM.bitnet>
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Here is a Warp Theory that a friend thought up.....
May be you Mathematic Techs out there can Make Head
or Tails out of it!.......Ashman
S T A R T R E K T E C H N O L O G Y
by Leon Myerson
COPYRIGHT 1988 by Leon Myerson - permission to download and
reprint this
essay for free distribution within the ranks of Star Trek fandom
is hereby
granted provided the author's name and this copyright notice are
retained.
This essay may be periodically superceded by revised versions
uploaded to
Data Library 2 of CompuServe's Science Fiction Forum.
DISCLAIMER SECTION: None of the ideas expressed in this
essay are
"official". All concepts put forth are solely my own opinions
and
speculations, and as such, might be completely contradicted by
"official"
Star Trek material issued in the future. I have drawn as much as
possible
upon the filmed Star Trek episodes and features, and refer to
such
"references" as the Franz Joseph blueprints and Technical Manual,
and to the
"Spaceflight Chronology" book, when I have found it useful to do
so. At
other times, I made it up. This material and any companion
essays I may
upload, are for the sole purpose of having fan-fun with the Star
Trek
universe. I have no connection whatsoever with ST:TNG or with
Paramount, I
just like to speculate regarding futuristic science. -Leon.
Warp numbers do not directly refer to speed, but to power.
Warp 1 is the
power level required to enter the warp continuum, and is known as
Threshold
power. Warp 2 is twice that power level, etc. Fractional warp
is simply
less than Threshold power while the ship, though traveling via
warp field
effect, is still "in" the Einstein space-time continuum at
sub-light speed.
The unit of power between whole warp factors for a given vessel
is one
"Impulse", as in the ST:TNG episode "Conspiracy" when Geordi
answers Riker's
command to increase from Warp 5 to Warp 6 by acknowledging the
addition of
yet another full impulse to the power already coursing thru the
warp
nacelles.
The formula relating the Warp number W to velocity in terms
of C is not
the hopelessly inadequate V = W^3. In Trek Classic's very first
episode the
Enterprise was seen at the edge of our galaxy. Even assuming
this to be the
near edge reached by going perpendicular to the galactic plane,
it is still
at least 1500 light years from Earth. At a cruising speed of
Warp 6 = 216 C,
the ship would have spent at least 7 years getting out there,
then 7 more
back.
Nor would that formula fit the size of the United Federation
of Planets'
Treaty Exploration Zone mapped in the "StarFleet Technical
Manual". This zone
was pictured as being approximately 12,000 light years in radius,
with both
the Klingon and Romulan empires located at the rim some 60
degrees apart.
Clearly, Enterprise did not require an excess of 50 years to
reach the neutral
zone.
In the ST:TNG episode "Conspiracy", Picard and Riker confront
the parasite
mother creature in the guise of Lt. Cmdr. Remmick as he/it
sends a beacon to
the parasite beings' homeworld via StarFleet's own CommNet. The
3-D map of
that network on the wall behind him fits almost perfectly the
Treaty
Exploration Zone of the Trek Classic Era.
Instead of V = W^3, velocity is defined by the sum of an
infinite series
known as the 3rd-order Cochrane function, which is applicable to
Tertiary
warp effect fields such as are utilized by major Federation
vessels from the
Tritium class onward. The first term of this series is the
familiar W^3, the
second term is the integral of the first term, W^4/4, the third
is the
integral of the second, W^5/20, and so on, ad infinitum. Each
term is the
integral of the preceding term. Thus the common mistake so often
made is to
quote only the first term of the series as if it were the entire
function.
The behavior of this series is such that the terms rise in
value at
first, then become increasingly smaller so as to converge on a
definite
value. This may be calculated by the equivalent formula:
V = 6 * { e^W - [ (W^2)/2 + W + 1] }
where V = velocity, W = Warp factor, and e = base for natural
logs 2.71828..
When calculated in this manner, this function gives the
following values:
Generated Uncorrected
Power Warp Speed x C
1 1.31
2 14.33
3 69.51
4 249.59
5 779.48
6 2270.57
7 6384.80
8 17639.75
9 48315.50
10 131792.79
11 358809.85
12 976018.75
13 2653889.35
14 7214947.68
15 19613332.78
For starship designers, these numbers seemed too good to be
true, and
indeed they were. From the earliest days of starship operations,
warp
engines had always registered a small power loss as they were fed
more than
Warp 1 power. Defined as the difference between Generated Power
and
Delivered Power, this drain was ascribed to the faintly conceived
notion of
"continuum drag". It was Delivered Power that determined actual
velocity
according to the 3rd-order Cochrane function. As the phenomena
was still too
poorly understood for mathematical description, progressive
increases in
power generation capability had to be matched empirically with
increases in
Delivered Power via actual flight testing, and the term Warp
Factor continued
to refer to Generated Power.
The Dilithium breakthru made it possible to generate
unprecedented
multiples of threshold power, and led to the Federation's
investment in the
Constitution class vessels. Able to safely generate and sustain
Warp 8
power, these ships found the drag/drain worsening rapidly at the
higher
levels.
It was the USS Enterprise, under Christopher Pike, that first
challenged
the "Warp Barrier". After three month's total overhaul at the
Terran Orbital
Shipyards personally supervised at every stage by Montgomery
Scott, the ship
went on speed runs pushing her anti-matter reactors as high as
Warp 13 for a
few seconds at a time. The resulting measurements at last
permitted Scott to
define the continuum drag equation:
tan(A)
CDF = G - ------------------------------------ + 10
(G-S) + (tan^2(A)+((G-S)^2)-1)^(1/2)
and thus
D = G - CDF
where D = Delivered Power; G = Generated Power; CDF =
Continuum Drag
Factor; A = 5.1050881 radians; and S = 9.8658770244 (Scott's
constant). The
corrected table of Warp speeds is therefore:
Generated Delivered Warp Speed
Power Power x C
1 1.00000 1.31
2 1.98354 13.91
3 2.96260 65.98
4 3.93509 230.94
5 4.89755 696.42
6 5.84370 1926.80
7 6.76140 4999.38
8 7.62571 12075.26
9 8.38615 26048.20
10 8.96633 46707.91
11 9.33067 67348.90
12 9.53548 82717.85
13 9.65322 93087.64
14 9.72615 100151.85
15 9.77477 105155.01
Old Warp New Warp
A graph of Scott's equation plotting Generated Power as X
against
Delivered Power as Y, shows that at threshold power (Scott's
equation and the
3rd-order Cochrane's function are not applicable below this
point) X = Y = 1,
and the graph line proceeds at an almost 45 degree angle assuming
equal
scales. (This graph is available as WARP10.RLE in DL2 for those
with IBM PCs
or compatibles.)
But as Generated Power exceeds 8 times threshold level,
Delivered Power
deviates ever more significantly and the graph curves sharply to
the right.
The curve is half of a hyperbola, rotated by angle A, with the
significant
asymptote line represented by the equation Y = 10, so that while
the
Generated Power may go arbitrarily high, the Delivered Power will
only
approach ever more closely but never equal 10. The speed value
for Warp 10
from the uncorrected chart, 131792.39 times the speed of light,
is the
theoretical limit of the Tertiary warp effect, and can only be
approached,
never equaled or exceeded. This is also the velocity of such
warp continuum
energy transmission phenomena as sub-space radio and the standard
phaser
effect. (The complete hyperbola is graphed in WARP_X.RLE, also
in DL2.)
By the time of ST:TNG, it had become standard practice to
quote Warp
factors in terms of Delivered, rather than Generated, power.
This explains
the apparent discrepancy between the eras. Overall Generated
Power
capabilities are still crucial to military vessels, as even a few
dozen extra
C's may mean the difference between success and failure when
outrunning or
persuing an opponent. Here then is the standard warp factor
scale used in the
24th century:
Delivered Generated Tertiary
Power Power Warp
1 1.0000000000 1.31
2 2.0167653720 14.33
3 3.0383208502 69.51
4 4.0670614879 249.59
5 5.1072983806 779.48
6 6.1676537197 2270.57
7 7.2682459514 6384.80
7.5 7.8487197368 10628.50
8 8.4694304149 17639.75
8.2 8.7364919027 21588.78
8.4 9.0203187626 26414.32
8.6 9.3280961537 32310.48
8.8 9.6717993420 39514.34
9 10.0729838055 48315.50
9.1 10.3071067812 53422.73
9.2 10.5747605008 59067.65
9.3 10.8903152831 65306.85
9.4 11.2777216596 72202.80
9.5 11.7800905867 79824.61
9.6 12.4836439773 88248.61
9.7 13.5895662949 97559.17
9.8 15.7014109302 107849.55
9.9 21.8369448362 119222.79
10 INFINITE 131792.79
New Warp Old Warp Velocity x C
To calculate the Generated Power corresponding to a given
Delivered
Power level, use the formula:
((D-10)^2*(tan(A)^2-1)-tan(A)^2
G = S - ---------------------------------
2*(D-10)*tan(A))
-----------------------------------------------------
End of Part One........
W.O.R. Ashley (The Cosmic Drifter) Rivet, LGANTAC
:Star Trek Fan Club list <STR...@PCCVM.BITNET>
:Star Trek Fan Club list <STR...@PCCVM.BITNET>
:StarFleet <STRF...@PCCVM.BITNET>
May the Great Bird of the Galaxy Bless your Planet..
(1513.1, Hikaru Sulu, {The Man Trap,(TOS)}
nstn...@fox.nstn.ns.ca
From: IN%"STR...@PCCVM.bitnet" "Star Trek Fan Club (Digests)" 13-SEP-1994 21:51:29.56
To: IN%"KHEK...@HUT.NL" "Jason A. Leigh"
CC:
Subj: StarTrek Technology Part Two
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Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 09:35:46 -0300
From: "Ashley Rivet (Ashley Rivet)" <nstn...@FOX.NSTN.NS.CA>
Subject: StarTrek Technology Part Two
Sender: "Star Trek Fan Club (Digests)" <STR...@PCCVM.bitnet>
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An interesting aspect of the 3rd-order Cochrane function is
that Warp 1
is not C but 1.31 x C. Taking the reciprocal of this number,
0.763, gives
what is known as threshold velocity. Under fractional warp
power, a starship
"accelerates" as the power is steadily increased. At Warp .99999
etc., the
ship is traveling at 0.763 x C. Transition occurs, an explosive
event
accompanied by the hauntingly beautiful phenomena known as the
Chromatic
Detonation, the optical analog of a sonic boom. In the next
micro-instant,
the ship is on "the other side", traveling through the warp
continuum at 1.31
x C. The ship is never observed at speeds 0.763 < V < 1.31 under
normal
conditions.
It should be noted however, that the boundary layer of the
warp field
effect creates an envelope of 4 dimensional Einsteinian
space-time within
which the ship travels. Therefore, all the familiar physical
laws of the
"ordinary" continuum still apply within the envelope. From the
outside, it
appears as though a space-time anomaly were manifested
sequentially along a
linear path. Fleeting, multiple images of the vessel in the
center of the
anomaly are created at widely spaced intervals which grow more
distant at
higher warp factors. Light coming from within the envelope
gathers at the
boundary layer until it reaches optical crossover threshold, at
which point
it "pulses" through, thus re-entering normal space-time to
project the image
of the ship. This effect was nicely filmed for the climactic
scene in
ST:TSFS when we see the Enterprise fleeing the detonation of the
Genesis
Device.
External light enters the envelope via complex optical
interaction with
the warp field boundary layer. The micro-instant lost for
photons in front
of the ship's path to cross the boundary layer causes them to
appear to
originate from directions shifted away from the line of motion in
favor of
apparent origins perpendicular to the direction of travel. While
an optical
blind spot exists directly behind the ship along the direction of
motion, due
to the superluminal velocity involved, the tear-drop shape of the
overall
warp field minimizes the area so blanked out to a vanishingly
small region.
The overall effect is curiously symmetrical to that observed
by vessels
approaching light speed in normal space-time. Such a vessel
would see its
3-dimensional field of view collapsed into twin circles of light
in front of
and behind the ship, with a band of darkness around its
mid-section. A
vessel in the warp field traveling at superluminal velocities
experiences a
tunnel-like effect in which the dark region consists of circles
in front of
and behind the vessel, and its view of the universe is projected
onto a
cylindrical tube which the ship appears to travel through.
Of course, the ship's computers correct for this effect to
present an
intuitively "normal" view upon the bridge and other viewscreens.
Windows
facing port or starboard reveal a relatively normal view without
sophisticated correction, others have internal holographic layers
which serve
as the functional equivalents of corrective lenses to keep the
view at least
intelligible, if not exactly accurate.
Sometimes a foreign body, such as small pieces of asteroidal
rock or
chunks of cometary ice are pulled into the forming continuum
envelope as a
starship achieves transition. Usually this is a harmless
occurence, unless
the "dragger" is massive enough to damage the hull if it should
collide with
the vessel. If so, the ship will usually power down below
threshold to
release the object, otherwise it can remain within the influence
of the warp
field effect and go along for the ride to the starship's
scheduled
destination. An unusually extreme instance of this effect occurs
in ST:TMP
when the old Enterprise, bucking wildly from her imbalanced
engines, pulled a
whole asteroid into the warp envelope formed around herself, and
was forced
to pulverize it with a photon torpedo.
Old space junk from various inhabited systems often gets
distributed
about the galaxy in this fashion, centuries in orbit about their
star of
origin affording plenty of time for a chance encounter with a
transitioning
starship. Some of places identifiable objects ultimately turn up
can be
downright humorous. Items too small to possibly damage a vessel
thru its
deflector shield are usually ignored, especially when they have
no possible
salvage value.
An example would be the cryonics satellite found just prior
to the
NCC-1701-D's recent visit to the Neutral Zone which originally
WAS orbiting
Sol, minding its own business for centuries. People in the
future tend to
leave space junk that old alone, the objects most popular as
tourist sights
actually being protected with "landmark" status. A sleeper ship
such as
Khan's would certainly have been detected, but the cryonauts
registered NO
life signs at all, so no one ever knew what was in this craft.
Eventually, a
starship pulled it into its envelope and carried it thousands of
light years
out to the vicinity of the starbase Enterprise was visiting for
Captain
Picard's conference with StarFleet authorities regarding the
apparent loss of
stations near the Neutral Zone.
This is also now considered the most probable explanation for
the early
1990's Voyager 6 probe having reached a black hole capable of
sending it to
the "machine" planet, as various research ships have made many
voyages
directly from the Sol system to known black holes since warp
drive was first
employed. Its return to the Sol system as "V'ger" prompted some
talk
off a system wide clean up of old hardware, but nothing ever came
of it.
The relativistic time dilation experienced at Tertiary
threshold
velocity is such that time passes at 64.6% per cent, or roughly
2/3's,
the "normal" rate of objects "at rest". This time dilation
factor goes
along with the ship as the warp effect envelope separates from
normal
space/time in crossing over the threshold, and remains stable
thereafter, so that all the time spent under way at superluminal
velocities is discounted by 1/3 for those on the vessel vs.
those
staying behind. The effect is rather conveinient for starship
crews, as
it effectively cuts by 1/3 the travel time between stop-overs,
and since
all Tertiary warp vessels experience it, there is no disadvantage
in
reaction time against opponents.
There are social aspects to the cumulative effect of a
lifetime career
devoted to star travel, in that one's age starts falling behind
that of
friends, family, and above all spouse's left behind. In the 2nd,
3rd, and
4th feature films, we see James Kirk wearing four bars and three
dots on his
sleeve, indicating 23 years service in StarFleet. Yet his
birthday
depression in ST:TWOK and the presence of the fully grown David
Marcus all
point towards a 50th birthday. Assuming Kirk graduated the
Academy at the
normal age of 22, adding 23 years leaves a 5 year gap. The gap
is simply the
cumulative effect of the time he's spent cruising at warp speed.
For married
personnel, this "age gaping" becomes a serious problem over a
lifetime, and
was a major factor in StarFleet's decision to allow families to
go along on
its latest vessels of the ST:TNG era.
A very important aspect of this effect derives from the
behavior of the
threshold cross-over phenomena in the presence of intense
gravitational
fields, such as would be found near stellar bodies. The intense
warping of
space/time already imposed upon the region of the continuum
nearest the star
causes it to become more tolerant of extreme profile skewing than
normal
space. As a nearby ship accelerates, the threshold velocity is
reached, but
cross-over does not occur, one has to increase the degree of skew
with still
more power. This means going nearer to lightspeed while still in
the normal
continuum, thus the time dilation factor increases. Since the
time dilation
at cross-over remains in effect throughout the period spent in
the warp
continuum's sub-space, it is possible to retard one's own rate of
time
passage to an arbitrarily high degree to assist in making
extremely long
voyages.
Some of the early Federation exploration ships, such as the
famous USS
Horizon, used this sort of maneuver on occasion, but more often
avoided it
due to the detrimental effect upon shipboard reaction time it
causes.
Merchant vessels sometimes tried it, but the extreme danger of
maneuvering so
close to a star led first to uninsurability and finally to
outright
regulatory prohibitions against the practice. Ships full of
colonists almost
always housed them in sleeper chambers, an old and proven
technology dating
as far back as the late 20th century, leaving only the crew
awake.
One of the greatest scientific discoveries made by the
original
NCC-1701 Enterprise was that if a ship went EXTREMELY close to an
object
of stellar mass while in the normal continuum, then poured on
maximum
power to force its way to threshold before putting significant
distance
between itself and the gravity field of the celestial body in
question,
then the effective threshold velocity could actually be slightly
above
lightspeed, and the associated time dilation not only extremely
large
but NEGATIVE. This is the essence of time travel under what has
become
known as the breakaway maneuver.
The class of phenomena known as "time travel" are extremely
complex
and remain poorly understood. Most recorded incidents have
involved
multiple effects which, in the absence of a fully developed
theory of
time, are often difficult to untangle for separate description
and
analysis. The Enterprise's unintentional journey to the Terra of
the
late 1960's began with an accidental encounter with an uncharted
black
hole. The unusual properties of this particular hole had
attracted
their attention, resulting in the Enterprise making a low warp
speed
sensor pass. The anomalous readings prevented them from
realizing the
nature of this object until it was too late. The hole's intense
distortion of the continuum pulled the Enterprise out of warp,
where the
ship was in iminent danger of being sucked into the hole itself.
On Kirk's orders, Sulu applied full emergency power in a
desperate
attempt to fight their way back to threshold so as to to re-enter
the
warp continuum, but even as the mighty starship trembled under
the
effort, the threshold power level was moving higher and higher as
they
neared the event horizon. With seconds left before the end, Mr.
Scott
in engineering surmised the nature of their situation. Knowing
the ship
could never make the rising tertiary warp threshold in time, he
engaged
the emergency circuit breakers to take the tertiary booster coils
offline, and diverted 100% of the reactor output into what was
now a
lower threshold secondary warp field system. The collapse of the
tertiary field into a secondary one "collided" with the rapidly
growing
overall power level, kicking the ship into the warp continuum
with such
explosive force that she briefly left sub-space itself on a kind
of
"ballistic arc" OVER rather than thru the warp-space she would
normally
traverse.
It would take Spock many weeks of theoretical study and
analysis
before he would devise a tentative explanation for their
seemingly
miraculous appearance within the Terran atmosphere. Ultimately,
his
explanation for their movement thru space as well as time rested
upon
two major points.
First, time travel does not permit violation of the
conservation of
mass law. One cannot simply send 200,000 metric tons of starship
back
in time to coexist with an "earlier" copy of the same 200,000
tons of
matter without in some way compensating for the effect such
functional
duplication of mass will have on the overall gravitational
process of
the cosmos.
Second, in this particular incident the mode of compensation
took
the form of an exchange or displacement of the 20th century
matter that
would one day be the Enterprise and her crew, this material
swapping out
of the normal plane of existance to reside in the hyper-continuum
the
ship had traversed to reach its destination. Therefore, in a
manner
related to the phenomena of "symmetry breaking", the cosmos
"selected"
as the ship's re-entry point a location determined by the
whereabouts at
that time of the raw materials which would one day be the
Enterprise and
her crew.
As most of this material would be found on Terra in the
1960's, that
is where the ship materialized. Fortunately, not quite all of
the
material constituting the Enterprise was of Terrestrial origin,
or the
ship would appeared at the center of the Earth instead of 5 miles
above
its surface. That it wasn't 5 miles below the surface instead
was
simply good luck as to the total net effect of the mass-origin
location
factors. When the Enterprise returned to its proper place in
time, the
older version of her material constituents resumed their proper
place in
the continuum as well.
Later studies of the "breakaway maneuver" and its associated
parameters revealed that had this early incident not involved
such
extreme conditions, the time traveling starship would have
remained
"linked" to the net gravitational influence of the star used as
the
initiator mass. This would have caused the celestial body itself
to
assume the role of adjusting its own impact on the expansion of
the
universe to compensate for sending a vessel back in time, and
would
permit such voyages thru time while retaining the ability to
target
spatial destinations as well. This type of controled temporal
translation was successfully demonstrated by the Enterprise via
Sol
during the mission Kirk's log describes as "Assignment: Earth",
and
was later employed from a captured Klingon cruiser to solve the
"Whalesinger" crisis.
Given the operational parameters of starship reactor systems,
the
time it takes to build up power applied to generating the warp
field
effect normally requires an initiator mass the size of a star or
greater
to perform the breakaway maneuver. A planetary mass is just too
small
under most circumstances as the vessel will have already moved
too far
from the center of its gravitational field before attaining
threshold
power where the time dilation effects are manifested. This does
not
mean it isn't possible to use a planetary mass as the initiator,
only
that the ship in question would have to bring up its power output
in an
incredibly rapid surge to do so. The only known means of doing
this is
the all but suicidal technique of deliberate implosion to
"cold-start"
completely shut down power systems. Only one ship, NCC-1701, is
known
to have ever survived this procedure. Historians remained
baffled as to
why the crew dubbed the gambit an "Irishman's Chance".
Were you to travel back in time without triggering some form
of
gravitational impact compensation for your mass, the continuum
would
soon destroy you via an effect strikingly similar to the manner
in which
a living creature's immune system destroys that which does not
belong.
The unfortunate time traveler would experience progressive
disintegration as the particles of his/her body are randomly
pushed back
to their own correct time.
An advanced form of such compensation was an integral part of
the
Atavachron, which functioned by actually forcing open "portals"
between
times. As Kirk, Spock, and McCoy went through the portal but
bypassed
the compensation stage, they were in grave danger and had but
little
time to return. Sarabeth could not return with them unless they
could
have learned to use the machine to compensate for her entry into
their
era, but alas there was no time for that before the star in that
system
went nova.
From: IN%"STR...@PCCVM.bitnet" "Star Trek Fan Club (Digests)" 13-SEP-1994 21:44:52.45
To: IN%"KHEK...@HUT.NL" "Jason A. Leigh"
CC:
Subj: StarTrek Technology Part 4
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From: "Ashley Rivet (Ashley Rivet)" <nstn...@FOX.NSTN.NS.CA>
Subject: StarTrek Technology Part 4
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However, hand phasers don't have access to quite enough power
to energize
the coil component to its equivalent threshold power level. The
result is
that the phaser beam produced travels at a speed dependent upon
the power
level applied to the coil. Whereas a beam emitted from a coil at
threshold
power would always move at Warp 10, with additional coil power
just boosting
the intensity or striking power of the beam, at just below
threshold power
the beam's speed is the reciprocal of Warp 10. This is a mere
7.58766 x
10^(-6) x C, or approximately 7300 feet per second from a
Tertiary coil,
therefore hand phasers use Primary coils so that the phaser
effect
propagatation velocity is proportional to the reciprocal of the
Primary warp
field's Warp 10 limit of 22025.47 x C. The reciprocal value is
therefore
approxiamately 8.45 miles per second. At still less coil power,
the speed
diminishes in direct proportion to the fraction of threshold
power applied to
the coil. Operational maximums for ST:TNG hand phasers take
their coils to
about 1/3 of threshold velocity, so that the weapons full power
effect moves
at roughly 2.82 miles per second.
One can vary the proportion of coil vs. initiating light
energy levels
only so far without overloading the hand phaser, causing burnout
or even
detonation. Thus to moderate the phaser effect down to stun
levels, the beam
in some models of hand phaser may travel as slowly as 200 or 300
feet per
second. We've seen this effect quite clearly when Kirk once
fired his phaser
set for stun at the metabolically accelerated Deela of Scalos,
who simply
stepped out of the way. Hand phaser on stun is definitely a
close quarters
only weapon, where speed is not significant.
Unlike sub-space "radio", which simply attenuates under an
inverse square
law, phaser beams have a much shorter range due their propensity
to "decay"
by losing their energy to the creation of visible spectrum
photons all along
their path of travel. This is what the observer sees, not the
phaser beam
itself. The actual phaser effect is one of micro-range random
space/time
fluctuations in the topological gradient of the space
encountered, imparting
warp impulses to the atoms encountered. The effect tends to
spread and
propagate thru solid matter, so that material objects are likely
to
distribute the effect throughout their particularly shaped
volumes.
At high power, the effect is so severe that all molecular
bonds are
snapped, and all of the particles are "impulsed" in random
directions. What
had been a solid object becomes an expanding cloud of particles
moving fast
enough to penetrate other solid matter to an enormous extent. A
body so
"disintegrated" on a ship would pass right thru the hull like a
burst of
gamma rays, but because the particles are traveling via impulse
rather than
momentum, their behavior apes that of neutrinos in that they do
almost no
damage to the matter they pass thru.
Lower power simply streches the molecular bonds without
breaking them,
their rebounding motions translating into simple heat. In this
manner, a
hand phaser may be used to heat rocks for warmth, cook food, or
even act as a
very precise cutting torch. At the lowest useful power, the
jolting of
molecules is too slight to really impact inanimate matter, but
does tend to
produce neurological shock as large numbers of synapses have
their firing
threshold randomly raised or lowered. The vast number of
additional versus
inhibited synaptic firings causes a biological equivalent of
"systems crash"
leading to unconsciousness, as the nervous system becomes
hopelessly confused
and overloaded by spurious signals. As no actual tissue damage
is sustained,
the nervous system "reboots" itself eventually. Somewhat higher
power can do
permanent, even lethal damage to the nervous system however, and
can cause a
seizure-like muscular convulsion. This minimally lethal effect
is not unlike
electric shock.
To residents of the 20th century, the transporter is perhaps
a more
incredible application of Cochrane's Unified Field Theory than
superluminal
travel, since the later affords no real Terrestrial gauge for
appreciating
the effect, whereas the wonder of instantaneously materializing
elsewhere has
been part and parcel of Earth's mythology/magic belief systems
for millenia.
Building on the ability of the "looped coil" to project
gravitational
fields, experimenters eventually learned to handle gravity waves
in ways that
parallel optical technology's capabilities with light waves.
Ultimately,
command of these techniques was sufficient to produce a
gravitational wave
"hologram" in which the system literally captured the continuum
profile of an
object down to the minutest detail of atomic constituents and
molecular
bondings in the intersection between its stationary "reference
beam" and the
rotating "scanning beam". Sophisticated split beam techiniques
permitted the
"projection" of a second "continuum profile image", which,
depending on the
operational limits of the equipment, could be located at an
arbitrarily
large distance and direction from the source. These experiments
were
originally conceived in pursuit of improved medical technology
following the
progression of X-rays, ultrasound, nuclear magnetic resonance,
and positron
emmision tomography, with the result enabling Dr. Crusher to
obtain a clear
view of the parasite creature embedded in Admiral Quinn during
the
"Conspiracy" period.
The transporter breakthru grew out of experiments attempting
to
manipulate matter via alterations of the continuum profile
associated
with an object. If a continuum profile projection were
maintained long
enough, it began to fill itself in with atoms picked up from the
environment. Eventually, it would recreate the original, though
in the
meantime, if sufficient power was used to intensify the
projection, this
profile construct could behave like the original, even appearing
to be
solid matter, as long it remained within range of the projection
radius.
At the same time, it was shown that changes in the profile of the
original were reflected in the original object as well in the
projection, establishing the real-time linkage between the two.
Early
attempts at matter manipulation were usually destructive, not
until the
early 24th century would the raw computer power be available for
such
things as the holodeck, where the projection could be based on
computer
simulations rather than real life / real time models, but in
these
pioneering efforts, the ability to project a profile back on its
own
source object, while maintaining an independent second projection
elsewhere, was developed.
Dr. Janet Hester of the Deneva Research Station first
conceived the idea
that if one reversed the "topological polarity" of the image
projected back
upon the source, in effect FLATTENING the impression it made in
space/time,
while simultaneously boosting the gravitational intensity, and
thus the DEPTH
of the spatially projected image, one could create a situation in
which the
probability of finding any given constituent of the source object
at the
original location could be reduced to zero, even as the
probability of
finding it at the projection's location went up to unity. Every
component of
an object, its atoms, the chemical bonds between them, even the
ongoing
molecular processes, would cascade back and forth between the
twin loci of
probable locations, finally coming to rest at the one brought to
unity. Of
all the marvels that have sprung from Zephram Cochrane's
insights, none more
clearly demonstrate his success at unifying gravitational
space/time
continuum phenomena with quantum mechanical probability
functions.
It would take another four decades of dedicated experiment
and study
before Science Officer Winston of the USS Moscow became the first
human to
transport across to the USS Tehran. Still more work was required
before the
ability of the tranporter to project a "virtual" yet functional
copy of the
active components of the scanning and projection processes to
envelope the
retrieval site would eliminate the need for physical hardware at
both ends of
the transport linkage, and theb to learn to bend the projection
around the
surfaces of planets using the natural gravitational field so that
transport
could be free of line-of-sight restraints. The depth of dense
planetary
matter the transporter can penetrate is still limited, but the
often
life-saving speed and conveinience of transport in general has
proved well
worth the time, cost, and often sacrifice it took to perfect.
The Secondary Warp field effect was originally achieved by
winding a
second-stage "booster" coil around a specially designed Primary
coil. The
early versions of this system would energize the Primary coil
first to
navigate at low percentages of threshold power. Once clear of
stellar and
planetary gravitational fields, they would engage the booster
coil
reconfiguring their warp field into the 2nd order type. When
this was
accomplished, power would be steadily increased until the
threshold level was
attained and transition to the warp continuum occured. The
Primary and the
booster together constitute the Secondary coil. Should the
booster fail
under operational stress, a fairly common occurence in the early
days, the
Primary alone could be used and could operate above its threshold
level to
take the ship to superluminal velocities.
While later vessels retained the above system layout,
experience proved
it far more efficient to energize the whole Secondary coil system
as a single
circuit, and to navigate at very low power and speeds with an
independent
miniature Primary system. This became known as the Impulse
Drive. As it was
intended only for low speed operations, this system would not
normally be
capable of handling the power load it would require to bring the
vessel past
the threshold point. However, engineers took advantage of this
dual
propulsion system to split the vessel itself, letting each major
sub-division
of the hull house one of the systems. It became customary to
place the major
living quarters in the hull with the smaller Impulse Drive, both
to better
shield the crew from the higher radiation levels the more
powerful Secondary
system created, and also with the idea of better accomodating the
entire crew
should "coil burnout" force the abandonment of the other hull.
The terminology of vessel design adopted the convention of
referring to
the hull housing the Secondary coil system as the Secondary Hull,
and
the other housing the Primary coil only Impulse Drive as the
Primary Hull.
Tertiary drive systems simply wound yet another type of booster
coil around
the Primary and Secondary stages nested inside it, but as there
were still
only two drive systems and two main hull sections, the one with
the large
engine system continued to be called the Secondary Hull.
In the event of separation, the Primary Hull's Impulse Drive,
freed of
the weight of the entire Secondary Hull and the even more massive
main drive
engine nacelles, is usually large enough for superluminal
propulsion. This
has been shown quite clearly in ST:TNG during the initial
encounter with Q,
when the Primary Hull found its way to Farpoint after the entire
ship spent
some 10 minutes pushing itself to its operational limits while
going in
exactly the opposite direction. It is equally well implied by
Geordi's
instructions to Engineer Logan to take the Primary Hull to a
Starbase if
unable to re-establish contact with him after performing the
saucer-sep
manuevar in the "Arsenal of Freedom" incident.
The first three orders of warp field phenomena correspond to
the first
three "generations" of warp drive technology in the "Spaceflight
Chronology".
Logically, a "Fourth generation" designation should have waited
for the
developement of Quarternary warp, the sum of X^4 + (X^5)/5 +
(X^6)/30 etc.,
equivalent formula 24*((e^W)-((W^3)/6 + (W^2)/12 + W + 1)), but
the impact of
Dilithium on power generation, and thus overall performance, was
so great
that the "Fourth generation" label took hold for the Constitution
class. All
orders of warp field phenomena remain subject to the Warp 10
limit on
Delivered Power, but higher order warps produce greater velocity
for the same
Delivered Power than lower orders. (See Appendix for tables of
Primary,
Secondary, and Quartenary Warp Factor Equivalent Velocities).
The term "Fifth generation" is usually applied to the
abortive attempt to
harness "Trans-Warp", a misbegotten application of the Interphase
phenomena
first observed by the Enterprise NCC-1701 during the "Tholian
Web" incident.
The abandonment of this dangerous system was made doubly
disappointing by the
continued failure of Federation science to perfect a workable
Quartenary warp
drive. The seemingly insurmountable difficulties encountered in
the early
attempts at Quarternary drive design were the prime reason for
the costly
"Trans-Warp" interlude.
However, in the intervening decades advanced theoretical
From: IN%"STR...@PCCVM.bitnet" "Star Trek Fan Club (Digests)" 13-SEP-1994 21:44:43.18
To: IN%"KHEK...@HUT.NL" "Jason A. Leigh"
CC:
Subj: StarTrek Technology Part 5
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Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 09:36:16 -0300
From: "Ashley Rivet (Ashley Rivet)" <nstn...@FOX.NSTN.NS.CA>
Subject: StarTrek Technology Part 5
Sender: "Star Trek Fan Club (Digests)" <STR...@PCCVM.bitnet>
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studies have led
to vastly simpler, more reliable Tertiary drives which can be
pushed, and
above all held, far closer to the Warp 10 limit of Delivered
Power than the
original design multi-stage units. These single stage
"integrated" units
were first used in ship's of the NCC-1701-C's Ambassador class,
and marked
the arrival of warp technology's "Sixth generation". A highly
refined and
advanced version of this type of drive serves as the main
propulsion for
"Galaxy" class starships such as Enterprise NCC-1701-D. Gone are
the
inefficientcies of the nested, three coil approach, advances in
Impulsor
Calculus theory and supercomputer simulation techniques having
found a single
coil equivalent.
As the early efforts at Quarternary warp floundered on the
complexities
of a four level multi-stage approach, the success of the single
stage
"integrated" approach for Tertiary warp has scientists of
ST:TNG's era once
more confident of eventual success, and aggressively paced
research programs
are again under way in the race for the Quartenary drive. It
should be noted
that the extra heavy warp nacelle mountings and overall
structural strength
rating of the Galaxy class design should easily permit
retrofitting of
Quarternary Warp engines when they become available.
Montgomery Scott correctly predicted the crippling
deficientcies of the
Trans-Warp system, but was unable to dissuade StarFleet from
investing in it.
Rightly convinced that Quartenary warp would have to await
improvements in
warp theory permitting "integrated" designs, he attempted to
convince
StarFleet to allow him to challenge the Warp 10 Barrier itself.
Alas, Scott
was never able to secure StarFleet backing for his proposal, and
only a
handful of ST:TNG era technical persons who've studied his
original notes
even know what he had in mind.
Realizing that the "SuperWarp" scheme was far too radical for
his era,
Scott dedicated his leisure time engineering studies to the
design of the
ship he felt StarFleet should build in place of more "Excelsior"
class
vessels. Yet this project also offered too many radical
advances, as Scott
was allowing for upgrades to integrated Tertiary or even
Quartenary main
drives in his huge dreamship. But while the Galaxy class would
ultimately be
larger and incorporate advances beyond his wildest imaginings,
even a cursory
glance at Scott's old plans and drawings reveals the striking
similarities
that mark the true lineage of these greatest of all StarShips.
NCC-1701-D's
operational status is the way Scott would most have wanted
StarFleet
Engineering to acknowledge its continuing debt to its greatest
practitioner.
As for the mechanics of SuperWarp, the mathematically
inclined are invited
to contemplate the significance of the other half of the
hyperbola relating
Generated to Delivered power, which most Federation scientists
dismiss as a
mere geometric curiousity. Of course, scientists once thought
that C itself
represented an impassable barrier, yet as Spock would say, "There
are always
possibilities".
Without giving too much away, I can offer the following clue,
that the
Constitution class USS Enterprise NCC-1701 under James Kirk, once
broke
through the Warp Barrier by accident, the result of her Captain's
famous
propensity for taking desperate gambles in otherwise hopeless
situations.
Students of warp physics correctly identifying the occassion are
eligible to
win a scholarship to StarFleet academy, which, alas, may not be
used until the
23rd century.
-Leon Myerson;
72157,3432; 6/23/88
APPENDIX 1 - PRIMARY WARP
Generated Delivered Primary
Power Power Warp x C
1 1.00000 1.72
2 1.98354 6.27
3 2.96260 18.35
4 3.93509 50.17
5 4.89755 132.96
6 5.84370 344.05
7 6.76140 862.85
8 7.62571 2049.24
9 8.38615 4384.92
10 8.96633 7833.82
Theoretical Limit = 22025.47 x C
Threshold Velocity = 0.5814 x C
Time Dilation at threshold = 0.813205
APPENDIX 2 - SECONDARY WARP
Generated Delivered Secondary
Power Power Warp x C
1 1.00000 1.44
2 1.98354 8.57
3 2.96260 30.77
4 3.93509 92.46
5 4.89755 256.13
6 5.84370 676.42
7 6.76140 1712.18
8 7.62571 4083.24
9 8.38615 8753.06
10 8.96633 15649.70
Theoretical Limit = 44030.93 x C
Threshold Velocity = 0.6944 x C
Time Dilation at threshold = 0.717939
APPENDIX 3 - QUARTERNARY WARP
Delivered Generated Quarternary
Power Power Warp
1 1.0000000000 1.24
2 2.0167653720 25.34
3 3.0383208502 170.05
4 4.0670614879 742.36
5 5.1072983806 2617.92
6 6.1676537197 8218.29
7 7.2682459514 24167.20
7.5 7.8487197368 40826.52
8 8.4694304149 68510.99
8.2 8.7364919027 84149.66
8.4 9.0203187626 103286.47
8.6 9.3280961537 126697.69
8.8 9.6717993420 155331.49
9 10.0729838055 190346.01
9.1 10.3071067812 210676.62
9.2 10.5747605008 233155.87
9.3 10.8903152831 258009.95
9.4 11.2777216596 285488.88
9.5 11.7800905867 315868.94
9.6 12.4836439773 349455.49
9.7 13.5895662949 386586.00
9.8 15.7014109302 427633.43
9.9 21.8369448362 473009.97
10 INFINITE 523171.18
Theoretical Limit = 523171.18 x C
Threshold Velocity = 0.8065 x C
Time Dilation at threshold = 0.590200
For comparison, here is a chart of Quarternary Warp Factor
equivalent
velocities keyed on the older "Generated Power" scale.
Generated Delivered Quarternary
Power Power Warp x C
1 1.00000 1.24
2 1.98354 24.41
3 2.96260 159.92
4 3.93509 680.00
5 4.89755 2315.80
6 5.84370 6908.99
7 6.76140 18761.08
8 7.62571 46527.25
9 8.38615 101833.70
10 8.96633 183948.24
11 9.33067 266146.24
12 9.53548 327403.32
13 9.65322 368752.42
14 9.72615 396927.10
15 9.77477 416884.29
16 9.80915 431599.84
17 9.83463 442835.76
18 9.85421 451667.92
19 9.86971 458779.77
20 9.88225 464622.34
21 9.89262 469503.75
22 9.94445 494688.02
--------------------------------------------------End of Transmission
Non-Canon........
W.O.R. Ashley (The Cosmic Drifter) Rivet, LGANTAC
:Star Trek Fan Club list <STR...@PCCVM.BITNET>
:Star Trek Fan Club list <STR...@PCCVM.BITNET>
:StarFleet <STRF...@PCCVM.BITNET>
May the Great Bird of the Galaxy Bless your Planet..
(1513.1, Hikaru Sulu, {The Man Trap,(TOS)}
| \__,--------/\ ` | \ / \ / |/ - |
) ,-' _,-' |- |\-._ | .---, | -| == |
|| /_____,---' || |_|= || `-',--. \| -| - ==|
|:(==========o=====_|- || ( O )|| -| - --|
|| \~~~~~`---._|| | |= || _,-.`--' /| -| - ==|
) `-.__ `-. |- |/-' | `---' | -| == |
| / `--------\/ , | / \ / \ |\ - |
__|____|_______ _ ] / \ / `---' \ / \\ /
/ || \ \ // `._/ | | \_.' \\ /
\_______________||_/ \ / `-----' \ /
`. // \\ ,'
nstn...@fox.nstn.ns.ca `-._ || || _,-'
`-._____,-'
GopherCo
writes:
>Even Q makes mistakes :-)
Does he? He is, as he is fond of pointing out, omnipotent
Lisa Richardson
A wise man once said that knowledge is sometimes not everything if one does
not have the wisdom to use it wisely.
In Q's case... He may be omnipotent, but sometimes does not have a real
clue. Remember, Q was once human and could not fanthom the idea of pain,
friendship and other human qualities, while in fact he was knowledgable in
the mechanics of the universe.
--
Lisa Richardson (aka Priss on about a half dozen MUCKs)
pr...@glia.biostr.washington.edu and/or pr...@anime.tcp.com
"Live fast, Die young, and make hearts melt as you go away" - Lisa Richardson
Priss the MUF Wizard of _AnimeMUCK_ at anime.tcp.com (128.95.44.29) 2035
Michael M. Welch
thread refuses to die? 8-)
Kinda makes me expect that any time, now, I'll see a post with a
subject of "Re: Misconceptions about warp".
- Michael
--
Michael Welch
mwe...@netcom.com
Kilian Hekhuis
|> In <38f322$b...@newsbf01.news.aol.com> goph...@aol.com (GopherCo) writes:
|>
|> >In article <34terf$p...@search01.news.aol.com>, ejh...@aol.com (EJHall)
|> >writes:
|>
|> >>Even Q makes mistakes :-)
|>
|> >Does he? He is, as he is fond of pointing out, omnipotent
|>
|> A wise man once said that knowledge is sometimes not everything if one does
|> not have the wisdom to use it wisely.
|>
|> In Q's case... He may be omnipotent, but sometimes does not have a real
|> clue. Remember, Q was once human and could not fanthom the idea of pain,
|> friendship and other human qualities, while in fact he was knowledgable in
|> the mechanics of the universe.
Please check your dictionary. You mean Omiscient (sp?), while we were talking
about omnipotent!
Kilian
Eric
> Please check your dictionary. You mean Omiscient (sp?), while we were talking
> about omnipotent!
All-Knowing....
If you are All-Knowing, you know how to make yourself All-Powerful.....
The two are, actually, kinda, the same...
Eric
Donny & Sandy Ball
writes:
>
>In article <38f322$b...@newsbf01.news.aol.com>, goph...@aol.com
> No, he isn't. He just likes to brag about it, that's all, but he's far
from
> omnipotent, as he was thrown out of the Qontinuum (sp?), which he
wasn't able to
> stop.
>
> Kilian
>
That's because there was more than one Que throwing Q out of the
Q-continuum. But then again Q said [to Vash] "When I look at a gas
nebula, all I see is a cloud of dust, but seeing the universe through
your eyes allowed me to experience...wonder." If he was omnipotent then
he could do that anytime he wanted to. But his powers are virtually
limitless. All who don't belive just IRC to #startrek and be warned...
Q