Can you explain the Klingon Forehead Ridges Paradox?
John Cook
Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)? Well, seeing as Paramount won't tell us,
I'm running a competition where you have to write your own idea on why
this mysterious change took place. Humourous answers are welcome! So
drop by if you have a theory or if you want to read everyone else's
attempts.
<http://www.powerup.com.au/~sevloid/toons/sevcomp.htm>
John Cook <mailto:sev...@powerup.com.au>
TOON ZONE: cartoon spoofs of Star Trek & The X-Files, competitions and
other comics...
http://www.powerup.com.au/~sevloid/toons/toons.htm
Scott Kellogg
Simple!
Captain Kirk kicked so much Klingon rear end, their spines permanently
migrated to their foreheads!
Scott Kellogg
(Too bad it's not original:)
DragonFyr
Two Words: Tribble Bites!
Wile e. coyote
"Everybody wants prosthetic foreheads on their real heads. . ."
-They Might Be Giants
John & Linda VanSickle
cons...@security.net wrote:
>
> On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:48:44 +1000, John Cook <sev...@powerup.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
> >TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)?
>
> Well, Worf seemed embarassed to explain it during DS9's anniversary
> episode, so we might assume it was an accident. I would guess a
> genetic virus that escaped the lab and infected the populace.
Nah, t'was like this:
The Klingon High Councillor watched an intercepted tv broadcast of Rosanne
Barr singing the US national anthem prior to a baseball game. Unaware
that this was a regular broadcast (and therefore had been travelling in
space for centuries), the High Councillor did not know that this person
had been dead for many years. He fell in love.
Believing that Rosanne would reject him (even though there is no grounds
for attributing such discretion to her), he had himself surgically
modified to look human. Because he believed that the normal appearance
of his people would alert her to his actual identity, he had the entire
Klingon race altered as well. It is shoartly after this that the Original
series takes place.
When the other Klingons found out why he had had them all altered (which
discovery was made during those years of Kirk's career that fall between
the Original series and the forst movies), they assassinated him, and
began a surgically change themselves back. That's why the movie Klingons
don't look like the TNG and DS9 Klingons. They are also so ashamed that
any Klingon would fall for Rosanne Barr that they have not spoken of the
incident publicly since that time.
And now you know the rest of the story.
Regards,
John
--
"Natural laws have no pity." -- Robert Heinlein
John & Linda VanSickle vans...@erols.com
Darrell Larose
John Cook (sev...@powerup.com.au) wrote:
: Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
: TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)? Well, seeing as Paramount won't tell us,
: I'm running a competition where you have to write your own idea on why
: this mysterious change took place. Humourous answers are welcome! So
: drop by if you have a theory or if you want to read everyone else's
: attempts.
: <http://www.powerup.com.au/~sevloid/toons/sevcomp.htm>
I read somewhere that the Klingons in TOS were "Fusion Klingons"
which had been genetically engineered not to have the cow pie
forehead. I suppose spies whould stand out with such a noticable
feature. Worf's distain was probably because spy's are without
honour, or maybe this sub-race is considered less than Klingon?
Clay Cahill
I heard that hoff...@enterprise.america.com (Edward Hoffmeister)
said:
>anyone with a theory remember 2 issues.
> a. tng generation klingons AND the re-made kahless have the forheads, so
>if kahless should have been made forhead-less, then when he appeared WITH
>forhead-ridges it would have been an instant give-away, that he was not
>kahless.
>
There's also what's his name? Kang? Something like that? The Klingon
who was going to start the war with the Federation before the
Organians put a stop to it. He was in some DS9 episode with ridges.
Clay-
_________________________________________________________________________
-Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistibuting this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Clayton A. Cahill, 1997
-License to distribute this post is available for $1,000. Posting
without permission constitutes an agreement to these terms.
-Please send notices of violation to postm...@msn.com
de Klerk
I think I know a good cover story to the ridges analogy,
You could either say one of two of the reasons:
Klingons had a policy of wearing artificial skin over their ridges as a
undercover makeup or as a protection from the tribbles, which may have
had a bad reaction to the Klingons' foreheads. Later they were taken off,
as new ways of immunity against the tribbles' disease was invented.
Christo de Klerk
USS Arachnid
http://www3.sympatico.ca/deklerk/arachnid/
Star Trek vs. Star Wars and other such paradoxes!
http://www3.sympatico.ca/deklerk/arachnid/orion/
John Cook <sev...@powerup.com.au> wrote in article
<3357B3...@powerup.com.au>...
>
> Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
> TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)? Well, seeing as Paramount won't tell us,
> I'm running a competition where you have to write your own idea on why
> this mysterious change took place. Humourous answers are welcome! So
> drop by if you have a theory or if you want to read everyone else's
> attempts.
> <http://www.powerup.com.au/~sevloid/toons/sevcomp.htm>
>
Michael Jacobsen
> Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
> TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)?
To put it simply, there are two different races of Klingons (seen so far).
Does there have to be a more fanciful explanation?
Imagine being a Klingon and watching "Star Threats" with all those ugly
white humans walking around causing the Empire grief. When suddenly here
comes a more pleasant looking human with dark brown skin.
Is this some cheap attempt of the producers to increase ratings? No. Just
a new race of humans. Called "Negroe", the "old" humans are called
"Caucasian". Yes, from Earth but from a different region. And guess what.
There are other races too! Seriously! Ones with yellow skin and narrow
eyes, and even a few with red skin and high cheek bones!
Now take the comaprison further. (back in the Federation...)
The "old " Klingons may have been persecuted by the "new". Hence the
embarrasment of Worf. (Or maybe vice versa) [Familiar?] Maybe the "old"
race was considered expendable and therefore sent to the frontline and
commaonly seen by the Federation. (or maybe the "new" race was thought "not
worthy of battle" and _not_ sent to the frontline---embarassment).
At any rate the "new" and "old" Kingon issue seems almost trivial when put
in this light. Doesn't it?
Thanks for your time.
"Captain LaRiviere"
GulPlum
[alt.binaries.startrek removed from this X-post]
Michael Jacobsen wrote:
>
> > Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
> > TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)?
>
> To put it simply, there are two different races of Klingons (seen so far).
> Does there have to be a more fanciful explanation?
<snip wrong answer> ;)
You seem to forget the three Klingons who appeared in the Original
Series and reappeared after many years on DS9; where did their ridges
come from? These are the same people, reference being made in each case
to their respective encounters with Kirk's crew.
There's also a fourth Klingon we've seen in both guises, Kahless; he
crops up in TOS's "The Savage Curtain"; then in TNG's "Rightful Heir" a
*cloned duplicate* is created... all of sudden the clone has ridges
(apart from looking nothing like the "original", due to being played by
a different actor)... We also see portraits of the "original" Kahless
from history, looking as he does in the TNG/DS9 eps.
So the Klingons have ridges, then don't, then get them back. This is
what needs to be explained (and not by the increased budgets on TNG/DS9
either: that's too easy :) ...
--
To reply by email remove "diespam." from address
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/stinsv
Edward Hoffmeister
de Klerk (dek...@sympatico.ca) wrote:
: Klingons had a policy of wearing artificial skin over their ridges as a
: undercover makeup or as a protection from the tribbles, which may have
: had a bad reaction to the Klingons' foreheads. Later they were taken off,
: as new ways of immunity against the tribbles' disease was invented.
: > Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
: > TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)? Well, seeing as Paramount won't tell us,
: > I'm running a competition where you have to write your own idea on why
: > this mysterious change took place. Humourous answers are welcome! So
: > drop by if you have a theory or if you want to read everyone else's
: > attempts.
anyone with a theory remember 2 issues.
a. tng generation klingons AND the re-made kahless have the forheads, so
if kahless should have been made forhead-less, then when he appeared WITH
forhead-ridges it would have been an instant give-away, that he was not
kahless.
b. klingons WITH fore-head ridges, seem to have more head-mass than
tos-ridgess ones.
therefore as a consequence of both issues, i tend to think the forhead
ridges, are natural, and the ridge-less either: had them surgically
removed, were a different race within the klingon species (like humans
have many), or were something culturally embarasing (half-breeds ?? -- we
know its possable remember kahlar[sp?], as well as the romulan-klingons)
ad...@pcug.org.au
For all those coming up with theories, I'd just like to add the point
that in the TNG episode "The Emisary" they encounter Klingons who
were in cryogenic stasis from the TOS era (80 years ago) and they look
like normal TNG era Klingons.
Michael T Svitak
How about this:
There was a large and powerful Klingon house with many members.
All the members of this family had no head ridges(we've seen Klingons with
all kinds of ridges so why not none.)
When a Klingon was adopted by this house he removed his ridges as a sign of
allegiance(it is mentioned, I forget which episode, that Klingons who lose
their families are taken in by other houses ans cousins of a sort.)
Each Klingon house controls it's own ships.
All the ships and Klingons seen in TOS are from this house.
The house was involved in a great feud with a much lesser house and most of
the family was destroyed.
The remaining family members were so disgraced by the loss that they took
their own lives in ritual suicide.
Those Klingons that were adopted into the house sought refuge with other
houses and regrew their ridges so as to hide their disgrace and the dishonor
of their previous allegiance(we've seen that the Klingon body has many
redundant and strange attributes perhaps the ability to shape bone is one or
perhaps they had fake ridges implanted)
This is the only theory I can come up with that explains everything.
Kahless was not a member of this house so he would have ridges.
All the Klingons seen in TOS are from this house.
Dax's friend Koloth(I think?) was adopted into this house but survived the
great feud and went on to serve another house.
Tell me what you think.
j...@anv.net
Good point. I heard somewhere there were actually 3 classes of
Klingons. 1) The Imperial Race, as seen in TMP; 2) Warrior-Class,
i.e.: Kruge, et. al,; 3)Human-Fusion Klingons. In the same DS9
episode, Worf WAS going to explain, but due to circumastances and
obvious embarassment, he could not, describe the circumstaces around
the 3rd, to which there was refference in that episode.
bennett
John Cook <sev...@powerup.com.au> wrote:
>
>Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
>TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)? Well, seeing as Paramount won't tell us,
>I'm running a competition where you have to write your own idea on why
>this mysterious change took place. Humourous answers are welcome! So
>drop by if you have a theory or if you want to read everyone else's
>attempts.
><http://www.powerup.com.au/~sevloid/toons/sevcomp.htm>
>
>John Cook <mailto:sev...@powerup.com.au>
>TOON ZONE: cartoon spoofs of Star Trek & The X-Files, competitions and
>other comics...
>http://www.powerup.com.au/~sevloid/toons/toons.htm
There *IS* an 'official' explanation for the difference, and when I
find where I read it, I will post it. In effect it goes like this:
The Klingons from ST-TMP were Impereial Klingons, while those from
TOS were genetically created/altered as a sub-race to deal with humans
and the like. Why? I can't remember.
My problem is this: The Klingons in TMP had definite Spinal Ridges -
which is what the forehead ridges were 'officially' said to be: the
spine. In TNG they made the ridges more of an elaborate bony
structure, and less like a spine (Worf was still spine-like, but he
was created early in the creative process). Other than to make it
'look cool' I can find no explanation. The same goes for why the
ridges in the movies are, by and large, much smaller and more detailed
than their TV counterparts. Agan, the only explanation is 'looks' -
the budget and screen-size for a motion picture will allow for that
kind of detail . . .
my two cents,
bennett the mad
John Percy Kerslake
Michael Jacobsen wrote:
>
> > Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
> > TOS) to ridges (in TNG & DS9)?
>
> To put it simply, there are two different races of Klingons (seen so far).
> Does there have to be a more fanciful explanation?
>
> Imagine being a Klingon and watching "Star Threats" with all those ugly
> white humans walking around causing the Empire grief. When suddenly here
> comes a more pleasant looking human with dark brown skin.
>
> Is this some cheap attempt of the producers to increase ratings? No. Just
> a new race of humans. Called "Negroe", the "old" humans are called
> "Caucasian". Yes, from Earth but from a different region. And guess what.
> There are other races too! Seriously! Ones with yellow skin and narrow
> eyes, and even a few with red skin and high cheek bones!
>
> Now take the comaprison further. (back in the Federation...)
> The "old " Klingons may have been persecuted by the "new". Hence the
> embarrasment of Worf. (Or maybe vice versa) [Familiar?] Maybe the "old"
> race was considered expendable and therefore sent to the frontline and
> commaonly seen by the Federation. (or maybe the "new" race was thought "not
> worthy of battle" and _not_ sent to the frontline---embarassment).
>
> At any rate the "new" and "old" Kingon issue seems almost trivial when put
> in this light. Doesn't it?
>
> Thanks for your time.
> "Captain LaRiviere"
Except that in DS9 several TOS rige-less Klingons eg Kore turner up
with ridges.
--
John Percy Kerslake, kers...@SEECS.bangor.ac.uk
Pager 01426-235878, dysliexia rules k o
Sorry My spell checker will not work with my mail package
I am writing this at work on a sun
Larry Precure
Cha...@ix.netcom.com (Clay Cahill) wrote:
> There's also what's his name? Kang? Something like that? The Klingon
> who was going to start the war with the Federation before the
> Organians put a stop to it. He was in some DS9 episode with ridges.
Actually, that DS9 episode (wish I had it on tape, or could even
remember the title) [My "working" title : The Three Klingons], starred
the three major Klingons from TOS:
Kang (my favorite), from Day of the Dove. Favorite line: "Only a fool
fights in a burning house".
Koor (John Colicos, who went on to become Count Baltar on
Battlestar Galactica), from Errand of Mercy. Favorite line: "A pity,
Captain. It would have been glorious."
Koloth, from The Trouble With Tribbles.
Note that Dax has met all three, in both ridged and ridgeless forms,
and does not seem suprised. Perhaps someday O'Brien will ask HER
about it.
NoSpam
They had to have had the riges for generations
, because
1)Kahless and pictures of him had them
2)When the Enterprise Crew de-evolved, Worf got bigger ridges.
3)The 80 year old cryogenic Klingons had them
Anon
SOMEONE, has been paying attention. I would have chalkedit up to budget only,
but Worf said, "We don't discuss that with outsiders!"
An explanation WAS given for the Romulan forehead ridges. They intentionally
mutated their entire race. They were hastening their cerebral evolution
through genetic resequencing.
Marc Barrette
Why is there this question about old klingons and new klingons. The
answer is very simple. There is but only one type of klingons and that
is with riges. The story of two kinds of klingons was just used to shut
up those pesky people asking:"Why have klingons change". The diffrence
between the two is budjet. In the movies and the new series, they could
make klingons look the way they realy should (warrior like). These
things happen. Star Trek is science fiction not science fact. Remember
Zefrin Coccren (sorry for the spelling)? We saw him in the original
serie and in the latest film. Strange, He doesn't look the same. Why?
Because it was in an alternate univers, because the entity on the
asteroid changed his apperence or maybe because he had plastic surgery
after discovering warp. NO! The same actor if available was to old.
These things do happen because technology in film making evolves and
they are now able to do things they couldn't 25 years ago. Now we can
nit pick about these incongruaties or enjoy Star Trek for what it is. A
science fiction show that is unlike anyother in history.
Sorry for the spelling, english writing is not my strong suit.
Thanks
Marc Barrette
Scottty
"Michael Jacobsen" <jake...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Imagine being a Klingon and watching "Star Threats" with all those ugly
>white humans walking around causing the Empire grief. When suddenly here
>comes a more pleasant looking human with dark brown skin.
Interesting concept.
Frankly, its hard to imgine what a Klingon version of "Star Trek"
would look like. They are represented as much more warlike, so maybe
something like: "to seek out AND CONQUER new life and new
civilizations, to boldy fight glorious battles where no Klingon has
fought before."
Brian Barjenbruch
Actually, it seems that TOM HANKS was originally approached to play the
role of Zefram Cochrane...Hanks is a huge Star Trek fan, and wanted to
play the part, but he had to drop out because of scheduling conflicts.
Glenn Corbett, who played Cochrane in TOS, died some time ago I believe.
So we will never know if he would have returned to the role in First
Contact, had he lived.
Brian
Adam Douglas Tacón
the answer is very complex, indeed. at first, all klingons were the same.
then, a bunch of klingons didn't like something that another bunch of
klingons were doing. they went off, formed their own country, & in
rebellion altered their genetics to have their heads nice and smooth.
eventually, all differences were settled between the two bunches of
klingons. however, the rebellios klingons still liked their smooth faces.
after being in the empire for a while, they started getting rebellious
again. instead of putting up with another rebellion (and possibly another
genetic change), the anti-rebellion klingons killed all of the rebellious
klingons.
u can add details. send them to me, and i'll add your names to a credit
list.
Scott Kellogg
Howdy,
While you're all trying to explain away the inconsistencies, here's one
for you.
Why does the new vulcan on Voyager, keep his quarters so dark? He's
supposed to be from a planet that's extremely bright. So much so that
vulcans evolved an extra eyelid to protect their vision.
The answer is quite simple actually: Bad Script Writers.
Scott Kellogg
Celes
We know that, we want to read interesting stories.
Marc Barrette wrote in article <335BFB...@cam.org>...
Celes
Kellogg wrote in article ...
No, the real tale goes like this...
I (Tulvok) have used my telepathic powers to take over the mind of this
poor internet user. Now, it is time to reveal to you the story of my dark
room.
All Vulcans like it bright. We enjoy warmth and dry and sun. We distane
the Romulan tradidtion of cool, wet, dark ships. You may recall that I was
once infected with a virus that acted as one of my memories, but what you
don't know is that that wasn't the first time I had been effected by losses
of control.
When I was was younger, I went exploring a cave with a friend. He was my
best friend in the world. He was the one who stuck up for me when people
teased my for being black, I was the one who protected him from his parents
when he missbehaved.
I didn't want to go into the cave, but he insisted. As we were walking
accrost a leadge, experienced the memory of the falling girl. I grabbed
my friend, ut pushed him off.
I spent the first hour with him, listning to him cry in fear and horror.
Being trapped in a cold, moist, dark place is the worst fear on any young
Vulcan
The rescue cres got to him in about 1 day, but it was too late. He bled to
death. I have strived to make up for that by forcing my self to live
through what he died in.
-Tulvok, writing through the hand of Celes
Replies ca nne sent to ce...@deskmedia.com
Jeremy Hannon
## Intercepted subspace message from Cha...@ix.netcom.com (cl regarding "Re: Can you explain the K"! ##
C(> _______________________________________________________________________
C(> -Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistibuting this work in any
C(> form, in whole or in part. Copyright, Clayton A. Cahill, 1997
C(> -License to distribute this post is available for $1,000. Posting
C(> without permission constitutes an agreement to these terms.
C(> -Please send notices of violation to postm...@msn.com
This is a joke... right?
... "What? Are you out of your Vulcan mind?" -- McCoy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Jeremy Hannon
I have got it! The Klingons and the Federation had strong tensions.
The idea was that they would make themselves look "more human", at
least, the "abassadors" so that they could get defectors! <BG>
Until the next bug... Bytemaster (jeremy...@cmpd.mindsync.com)
... "Fascinating," said Spock, watching Kirk's lousy acting.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
mstrwolf
On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:41:06 +0100, Marc Barrette <mba...@cam.org>
wrote:
>Why is there this question about old klingons and new klingons. The
>answer is very simple. There is but only one type of klingons and that
>is with riges. The story of two kinds of klingons was just used to shut
>up those pesky people asking:"Why have klingons change". The diffrence
>between the two is budjet. In the movies and the new series, they could
>make klingons look the way they realy should (warrior like).
Absolutly 100% Correct!!!!
How did the 1960's makeup artists with a small budget and no Latex
"appliances" know how the Klingons were to look in the later Movies
and TV series. At that time no-one knew that this show was going to
be cancelled and become a hughe re-run success story.
>These things happen. Star Trek is science fiction not science fact. Remember
>Zefrin Coccren (sorry for the spelling)? We saw him in the original
>serie and in the latest film. Strange, He doesn't look the same. Why?
>Because it was in an alternate univers, because the entity on the
>asteroid changed his apperence or maybe because he had plastic surgery
>after discovering warp. NO! The same actor if available was to old.
Again Correct
>These things do happen because technology in film making evolves and
>they are now able to do things they couldn't 25 years ago. Now we can
>nit pick about these incongruaties or enjoy Star Trek for what it is. A
>science fiction show that is unlike anyother in history.
However, since Worf made the statment in the revisited Troubble with
Tribbles, it indicates the writers have an idea what to do to explain
it, but have not decided on a totally plausable reason or can't agree,
leaving it suspence until they come up with an episode to explain it.
One theory I liked was that during the Klingon cival war, a biological
weapon was used which attaked the genetic structure of the opposing
side but infected all Klingons exposed on the planet and spread to
others like a virus.
The original intent of this biological weapon was to weaken your
opponent but leave them just enough strenth to fight and die in an
honerable battle. The genetic altering virus made certain Klingon
characteristics such as the rich skin color and protuding forheade
change to lighter skin and flat forheads. When all Klingons were
effected and the war was over, they set out to find a cure and did so,
changing everyone back to their original state of being.
This theory can explain:
1) How Klingons from Before TOS and After have the Klingon look while
the TOS Klingons looked more human.
2) Why Klingons did not want to discuss it with outsiders who would
know they tried to kill each other and made the whole race weaker in
doing so ( they may have never fully recovered), and give a possible
enemy (like Romulans) a proven biological weapon against their
strength and fighting abilities.
Scott Kellogg
Did anyone notice that the Kahless that appeard in TOS had now brow ridges?
(The Savage Curtain, not a very good episode.)
Scott Kellogg
Gareth Wilson
In Larry Niven's "Known Space" series there is a race called the Kzin
which is similar in some ways to the Klingons. In "Ringworld" he
described a Kzin religious sect that disguised themselves as humans
because they thought God was backing the human race. Maybe the Klingons
had a similar religion.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gareth Wilson
gr...@student.canterbury.ac.nz
Christchurch
New Zealand
"I take great comfort in the
injustice and cruelty of the Universe"
-Marcus, "Babylon 5"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fearnley
John Cook wrote:
>
> Have you got a theory on why Klingon foreheads have gone from smooth (in
It all started with a Klingon skiffle band. Whan they found they had no
washboard (always the best instrument in a skiffle band) to play, they
had to improvise with a bit of genetic engineering. Either that or a bit
of chewing-gum. 24t century versions are rumoured to be fitted with
around-body-sound, and it helps get those y-fronts clean and white :)
neal
Dries van Oosten
The usual explanation is that this Kahless was reproduced from the memory
of someone who had only met Klingons with a ridgeless brow.
Dries van Oosten
Eat any good books lately?
William J. Keith
> >Why does the new vulcan on Voyager, keep his quarters so dark? He's
> >supposed to be from a planet that's extremely bright. So much so that
> >vulcans evolved an extra eyelid to protect their vision.
> >
> >The answer is quite simple actually: Bad Script Writers.
>
Not really. If I lived on an extremely bright planet, the first thing I'd
do would be to make the place where I lived as dark as possible, for
comfort and safety. Early Vulcans probably lived in deeper caves than
humans, and later the design of Vulcan houses imitated this trait. When
the Vulcan comes on board ship, he sets his environmental controls to high
temperature, low humidity, and low lighting because that's what he's used
to in his home. Vulcan design has always seemed quite consistent to me.
Vulcan shame indeed.
William J. Keith
Dedub
One story from about the time of the second movie is that the Klingons
that were to come into human contact were altered to confuse the
Federation. Hindsight is pretty good if she is wearing jeans.
Dedub
Vulcans abusing spores will tell a good one from time to time but they
forget to edit.<G>
Celes
>Not really. If I lived on an extremely bright planet, the first thing
I'd
>do would be to make the place where I lived as dark as possible, for
>comfort and safety. Early Vulcans probably lived in deeper caves than
>humans, and later the design of Vulcan houses imitated this trait. When
>the Vulcan comes on board ship, he sets his environmental controls to
high
>temperature, low humidity, and low lighting because that's what he's used
>to in his home. Vulcan design has always seemed quite consistent to me.
>
Not neccesarialy, we have only seen a few vulcane houses, and only two
vulcan quarters (that I remember, there are undobtably more.)
Commpare Bill Gates 50 mil home vs. a two strory rambler vs a moter home vs
adobe mud walls vs. castles. We have seen far to little to make a blanket
statment about their homes. Until after Best of Both Worlds, one might
expect that evey human lives in the futuristic metal-dome condos, but we
have seen Picards Parents and Kirks Home and Picards Fantasy home(in
Generations).
We can't be sure that Vulcanes ever even lived in caves. They probaly did
(since it's a mostly deasert planet, right, little forest and jungle land.
) As for living deaper, well if they evolved in hot places, they wouldn't
need to go deeper, they would be as preparied to handle 100oF as we are to
handle 77oF.
As for the light, my real guess is that it is conductive to meditation.
Star Trek in Sound and Vision
Celes wrote:
>
> We know that, we want to read interesting stories.
<cut>
Yes, but we do *not* want them in alt.binaries.startrek. Can everyone
*PLEASE* delete a.b.s. from the "to Newsgroups" section in the header.
Thank you.
[follow ups set to r.a.s.c. & r.a.s.c.t.]
--
Star Trek in Sound and Vision
Boldly Going Where No Web Site Has Gone Before
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/stinsv
Michael G. Curry
Tuvoks dark room doesn't suprise me, I rember Spocks Quarters in TUC
being quite dark as well, i think it has something to meditation
> Replies ca nne sent to ce...@deskmedia.com
--
_____________________________________________
.---. .----------- Michael G. Curry aka
IRISHNYC
/ \ __ / ------
/ / \( )/ -----
////// ' \/ ` ---
//// / // : : ---
// / / /` '-- Email : IR...@INCH.COM
// //..\\ ... Website: Http://www.inch.com/~irish
----UU----UU-------------------------------------------------------
'//||\\` Aurora Web Services:
Http://www.AuroraNY.com Web Design and Hosting....
*'If Woody went straight to the Police none of this would have
happened'*
________________________________________________________
Steve Pugh
>> >Why does the new vulcan on Voyager, keep his quarters so dark? He's
>> >supposed to be from a planet that's extremely bright. So much so that
>> >vulcans evolved an extra eyelid to protect their vision.
Continuity?
Spock's quarters in TOS and the films were always darker than anyone
elses.
Which Vulcan are we talking about anyway? Tuvok or Terik?
Steve
+---------------------------------+----------------------------------+
| Stephen Richard Pugh |
| steve...@dial.pipex.com |
| http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/ax16/ |
+---------------------------------+----------------------------------+
Trill Spots
Celes wrote:
>
> Kellogg wrote in article ...
> >Howdy,
> >
> >While you're all trying to explain away the inconsistencies, here's one
> >for you.
> >
> >supposed to be from a planet that's extremely bright. So much so that
> >vulcans evolved an extra eyelid to protect their vision.
> >
>
> I (Tulvok) have used my telepathic powers to take over the mind of this
> poor internet user. Now, it is time to reveal to you the story of my dark
> room.
>
> All Vulcans like it bright. We enjoy warmth and dry and sun. We distane
> the Romulan tradidtion of cool, wet, dark ships. You may recall that I was
> once infected with a virus that acted as one of my memories, but what you
> don't know is that that wasn't the first time I had been effected by losses
> of control.
> When I was was younger, I went exploring a cave with a friend. He was my
> best friend in the world. He was the one who stuck up for me when people
> teased my for being black, I was the one who protected him from his parents
> when he missbehaved.
> I didn't want to go into the cave, but he insisted. As we were walking
> accrost a leadge, experienced the memory of the falling girl. I grabbed
> my friend, ut pushed him off.
> I spent the first hour with him, listning to him cry in fear and horror.
> Being trapped in a cold, moist, dark place is the worst fear on any young
> Vulcan
> The rescue cres got to him in about 1 day, but it was too late. He bled to
> death. I have strived to make up for that by forcing my self to live
> through what he died in.
> -Tulvok, writing through the hand of Celes
>
creatures...many desert creatures on earth burrow underground during the
day, if they evolved from creatures such as this, a dark dwelling may be
a subconcious symbol of security
Brian Barjenbruch
How do you explain Kor, Koloth and Kang? They have ridges now, yet they
did not have them in TOS. The simplest explanation would appear to be
none at all. The only reason for the difference is the primitive special
effects budget of TOS; it was well known (around the time of ST:TMP) that
the makeup artists <always> wanted to make the Klingons look ridged, yet
they had insufficient funds during the TOS era.
Brian
Hartunga
What follows is a blend of other theories I have come across on the net,
with some of my own personal touches. Where possible, I have included in
parenthesis examples from Earth's own history to help illustrate my
points.
There has been much talk in this newsgroup lately abouth the possible
causes behind the changes in the Klingon's appearance between TOS and TMP.
But the change was not simply a physical one. Everything about the "new"
Klingons -- their dress, their manner, their speech, etc. -- is completely
different from the "old" Klingons of TOS. The "new" Klingons emphasize
tradition and honor; the "old" Klingons were devious and crude. When the
"old" Klingons carried bladed weapons, they were human-like knives and
swords. The "new" Klingons use ancient weapons like the bat'telhs and the
d'ktahg. Whatever was behind the change it affected them culturally as
well as physically. That all this seemed to have happened within a single
decade, signifies a major social upheaval.
The original Klingons of Kahless' era and before all had the ridged
forehead. Over time, the Klingons began to mate with the humanoids they
had conquered, producing smooth-head half-breed Klingons. As the
centuries passed, and Klingon blood continued to be mixed, the smooth-head
Klingons became the majority, with only a few full-blooded Klingons left
in existence. (This is similiar to peoples of Latin America today. Most
Hispanics have both Spanish and Indian ancestors.)
As time passed, many of the ancient Klingon ways became watered down or
forgotten. Honor-bound traditions fell out of use. Bat'leths were
employed only in ceremonies or between hobbyists. Even the image of
Kahless was changed to a smooth-head one in popular books and paintings to
make him more acceptable to the majority. (This is comparable to own
popular image of Jesus. Ask any person to think of Jesus and they will
probably conjure up a vision of a blond-haired, blue-eyed almost nordic
looking man. Even though everyone knows He was Jewish.)
By the end of TOS, the Klingons had much to be ashamed of. They suffered
a number of humiliating defeats at the hands of the Federation, with Kirk
being responsible for many of their losses. The peace treaty forced on
them by the Organians made them turn to spying, sabotage and fighting
through third parties in a "cold war" situation. The alliance with the
hated Romulans is seen as being cowardly and dishonorable. A sense of
frustration and shame prevades the whole Empire.
A movement begins to renew the Empire by returning it to the glories of
the past. Old traditions, once thought as antiquated notions, are brought
back. Klingon opera is revived. Bat'telhs and d'ktahgs become part
everyday use again. The entire Klingon Empire embraces this Reformation
movement. Every aspect of life -- dress, food, art -- is based on an
idealized golden age. (This is much like how the Nazis revived Germany in
the early thirties.)
The smooth-head Klingons see themselves as having thin and polluted blood.
They go through genetic reconstruction to return them to their "true"
Klingon state. At first, this is only done by a few extremists in the
movement. But, as the Reformation gains momentum, many having themselves
changed. Eventually genetic reconstruction becomes a mandated procedure,
enforced by the state to ensure "racial purity".
The Reformation begins to have a definite dark side. The majority of
Klingons get swept away with movement. They attack anyone and anything
that is seen as not being "pure" Klingon. Revered monuments that have
stood for centuries are torn down and smashed. High ranking officials,
once honored and praised, are taken out, publically humiliated and
executed. Only that which is part of the "new" Klingon Empire is
accepted; all else is destroyed. (One can draw a parallel between this
and the Maoist purges in China.)
Eventually the Reformation loses its momentum. The Klingons realize they
have gone too far and look back on the Reformation with shame. The more
progressive Gorkon is appointed chancellor to help the Empire heal itself.
Still, there are holds outs. Certain government officials, like General
Chang, wish to return the Empire to the old ways. (Much like Russia,
when Gorbachev took over.)
This brings us to the time of "The Undiscoverd Country".
Timo S Saloniemi
In article <19970425005...@ladder01.news.aol.com> hart...@aol.com (Hartunga) writes:
>What follows is a blend of other theories I have come across on the net,
>with some of my own personal touches. Where possible, I have included in
>parenthesis examples from Earth's own history to help illustrate my
>points.
>
>There has been much talk in this newsgroup lately abouth the possible
>causes behind the changes in the Klingon's appearance between TOS and TMP.
> But the change was not simply a physical one. Everything about the "new"
>Klingons -- their dress, their manner, their speech, etc. -- is completely
>different from the "old" Klingons of TOS. The "new" Klingons emphasize
>tradition and honor; the "old" Klingons were devious and crude. When the
>"old" Klingons carried bladed weapons, they were human-like knives and
>swords. The "new" Klingons use ancient weapons like the bat'telhs and the
>d'ktahg. Whatever was behind the change it affected them culturally as
>well as physically. That all this seemed to have happened within a single
>decade, signifies a major social upheaval.
Note, however, that modern Trek has been retconning the past as well as
solidifying the new version of Klingon culture. There are frequent
references to the bladed-weapon fixation and the honor codes being
"historical" and "traditional". Also, the old and new looks and
manners are being actively blended. See for example DS9 "Rules of
Engagement", where we meet an old-school Klingon in TOS-like suit
and hairdo (but with ridges), scheming and emoting very much like
William Campbell did in his excellent role.
For fun details, see also ST:Generations, where Kirk back in
2284 or so is supposed to have a bat'tehl sword hanging on his
cabin wall. Either this is a modern replica (or, as Kirk would
say, "A fake", before burying it in the closet), or Kirk got it
from Kang in "Day of the Dove"... :)
The nature of Klingon "honor" is also frequently challenged in
DS9, where many Klingons are just as devious as in TOS, despite
quoting Kahless's words of wisdom. K'Mpec, Gowron, Duras, his
charming sisters - everybody high up in Klingon politics has his or her
own "refined version" of the honor codes. That's realpolitik to you...
Let me elaborate on your excellent theory, with some twists. One might
assume that the Empire is not a static entity, but a cyclic one. When
the war goes well, conquest heroes drink blood wine and invent glorious
stories of battles, enacting a self-ironic and lighthearted version of
the ideals of Kahless. But when conquests continue unhindered long enough,
a new breed of Klingons emerges, that of ruthless political or economic
schemers like the TOS Klingons. And when hard times (like peace) fall on the
Empire, the old myths are revived to bring some light to the sad darkness,
and the leaders reinforce the historic honor codes to keep the disgruntled
population at bay. Despite this, the brooding Klingons always end up
as aggressive drunkards until somebody initiates a new wave of conquests
which resets the cycle for another spin (as recently rather successfully
done by Gowron).
>The original Klingons of Kahless' era and before all had the ridged
>forehead. Over time, the Klingons began to mate with the humanoids they
>had conquered, producing smooth-head half-breed Klingons. As the
>centuries passed, and Klingon blood continued to be mixed, the smooth-head
>Klingons became the majority, with only a few full-blooded Klingons left
>in existence. (This is similiar to peoples of Latin America today. Most
>Hispanics have both Spanish and Indian ancestors.)
The cultural changes can also take place without the element of racial
dilution. The driving force in the growing Klingon dissatisfaction may
be the lack of challenges, or the lack of expansion room, as well as
the rather abstract lack of perceived honor.
>...A movement begins to renew the Empire by returning it to the glories of
>the past. Old traditions, once thought as antiquated notions, are brought
>back. Klingon opera is revived. Bat'telhs and d'ktahgs become part
>everyday use again. The entire Klingon Empire embraces this Reformation
>movement. Every aspect of life -- dress, food, art -- is based on an
>idealized golden age. (This is much like how the Nazis revived Germany in
>the early thirties.)
This cycle could have taken place many times in Klingon history, with
oddities like TOS "humanophilia" emerging just prior to the onset of
hard times. The Reformation may even be a Klingon tradition among many,
initiated whenever the rulers want to imply "divine protection" to their
rule.
>The smooth-head Klingons see themselves as having thin and polluted blood.
> They go through genetic reconstruction to return them to their "true"
>Klingon state. At first, this is only done by a few extremists in the
>movement. But, as the Reformation gains momentum, many having themselves
>changed. Eventually genetic reconstruction becomes a mandated procedure,
>enforced by the state to ensure "racial purity".
One can also conjure an opposite phenomenon, whereby ridged Klingons for
some obscure reason undergo genetic engineering to temporarily become
ridgeless (or blue, or horned, or whatever the fashion happens to be).
Collectivism seems a natural state of mind for Klingons, despite their
apparent individualism. What kind of individualism is it anyway to
conform to the masses of other individualists? :)
This echoes interestingly the Larry Niven idea of Kdaptist Kzin,
a subset of a race of catlike warriors who after losing a war to humans
begin to worship the human form. A group of Klingons might well become
"humanophiles" after finding the smooth-headed Earthlings
worthy adversaries.
Similarly, there is a definite "romulophile" movement in the current
Klingon society, no doubt having its origins in the decadent TOS era
as well. I would not wonder the least if some Klingons started remodeling
their ears, or turning their heads into Jem'Hadar spikeballs to better
imitate the highly esteemed Dominion dogs of war...
>The Reformation begins to have a definite dark side. The majority of
>Klingons get swept away with movement. They attack anyone and anything
>that is seen as not being "pure" Klingon. Revered monuments that have
>stood for centuries are torn down and smashed. High ranking officials,
>once honored and praised, are taken out, publically humiliated and
>executed. Only that which is part of the "new" Klingon Empire is
>accepted; all else is destroyed. (One can draw a parallel between this
>and the Maoist purges in China.)
Considering how much of old Klingon ways have survived the doubtlessly
numerous such revolutions of the past, I would think that "cultural
revolutions" like this are actually rather bloodless affairs. Not in the
literal sense, of course - Klingons will spill blood over the change of
spring fashion lines or gagh sauce recipes. But iconoclasm isn't
necessarily a major part of Klingon revolutions. Note how the brief civil
war in TNG was mostly described as invigorating instead of destructive,
with nobody really holding grudges or having hard feelings afterwards
(it seems even the Duras sisters took their loss graciously, continuing
the hopeless battle to the best of Klingon traditions and betraying their
Romulan backers many times over even though they were the most "romulophilic"
of the lot at the time of the actual war).
I don't dispute the possibility of extensive genocide accompanying the
TOS/Movies change. But it is equally possible that while the TOS
"humanophiles" were an embarrassing chapter in the official history,
they were in the end considered entertaining adversaries who may even
be fondly remembered today in the stories of the more laid-back Klingons.
Worf takes these things always much too seriously anyway.
>Eventually the Reformation loses its momentum. The Klingons realize they
>have gone too far and look back on the Reformation with shame. The more
>progressive Gorkon is appointed chancellor to help the Empire heal itself.
> Still, there are holds outs. Certain government officials, like General
>Chang, wish to return the Empire to the old ways. (Much like Russia,
>when Gorbachev took over.)
>
>This brings us to the time of "The Undiscoverd Country".
I doubt shame is a driving force in Klingon affairs (save for Worf's
personal affairs, and he's no real Klingon anyway). Klingons probably
look back on past errors with warm feelings - the greater the error,
the more fun it was to correct it with disruptor and bat'tehl. Gorkon's
peace initiative seems like the final gesture of the TOS-style
Klingon realpolitik - Klingons HAD to make peace, and both the
merry warriors of the happy war times and the vengeful drunkards of
the next phase of the cycle would have been uncapable of such a
move. Probably there always exists a layer of TOS-style sentiments
atop the mainstream culture - the merry warriors are controlled by
more cool-headed leaders, and the angry drunkards are manipulated and kept
at bay by insincere Kahless quotes from the same leaders.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Klingons just seem too fun to be overtly
worried about past mistakes. And Garak's statements to the contrary,
genocide probably isn't one of the prime operating modes of the
Klingon society after all.
Timo Saloniemi
bcaton
Gareth Wilson <gr...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote in article
<5jkir9$jq9$1...@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>...
> In Larry Niven's "Known Space" series there is a race called the Kzin
> which is similar in some ways to the Klingons. In "Ringworld" he
> described a Kzin religious sect that disguised themselves as humans
> because they thought God was backing the human race. Maybe the Klingons
> had a similar religion.
Yes, but the Kzin method of disguise was to mask yourself with the skin of
a human; Klingons may be a savage lot, but i don't think they go QUITE that
far. And i hope they don't do that other great Kzin trick of eating your
enemies, although with those teeth, it's hard to be sure!
Bit of a tangent: how is it that there seems to be so many cross
klingon/human hybbrids, when Klingon sex is so violent? I mean, humans are
pretty fragile relatively, and some of us at least prefer our lovers didn't
actually tear off chunks from our bodies!
Another tangent; if something bit off a chunk from Odo, would he maintain a
control over the separated piece? Or must he remain continuously connected?
Brett Caton.
'Droid
> Another tangent; if something bit off a chunk from Odo, would he maintain a
> control over the separated piece? Or must he remain continuously connected?
The point of the blood test screen was that changlings couldn't control
a split part of themselves - it reverted to a gelatinous state. However,
it has become clear that Odo was lacking a skill as the test has
apparently failed on founder infiltrators.
'Droid
Marc Barrette
Here's one for you. They Ticked Q off so he turn them into more human
looking Klingons for a while.
Marc
Mark V. Weber
Brian Barjenbruch <brian...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<brianbarge-24...@122.bridgeton-001.mo.dial-access.att.net>
Ascender
On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, bcaton wrote:
>Bit of a tangent: how is it that there seems to be so many cross
>klingon/human hybbrids, when Klingon sex is so violent? I mean, humans are
>pretty fragile relatively, and some of us at least prefer our lovers didn't
>actually tear off chunks from our bodies!
Maybe two ppl feel for each other so much, that they opt for IVF (Where
the embryo is implanted into the uterus.
>Another tangent; if something bit off a chunk from Odo, would he maintain a
>control over the separated piece? Or must he remain continuously connected?
As shown in some of the DS9 episodes recently, when a peice of a
changeling is seperated from its owner, it reverts to its liquid state.
This has been a key method of finding out if someone is a founder ie.
extract a blood sample, and if it stays blood, then they are human.
--------------------------------------------
* De Ascender * (Phil Stoneman)
Email: asce...@tjsathome.demon.co.uk
URL: none yet-soon, though =:)
System:P100 16Mb 6XCD Win95
To email me, please remove the * at the end
of my address - I *HATE* junk-mail
--------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison
bcaton wrote:
> Bit of a tangent: how is it that there seems to be so many cross
> klingon/human hybbrids, when Klingon sex is so violent? I mean, humans are
> pretty fragile relatively, and some of us at least prefer our lovers didn't
> actually tear off chunks from our bodies!
There's only been two, Torres and K'Ehleyr and both had Klingon fathers.
Based on evidence from Worf (which is, of course, somewhat suspect),
Klingon males apparently are capable of intimate behaviour without the
violence. Whenever Klingon sex has come up one of the things that
has been mentioned was the females are more...umm...spirited than most
humanoids. Quite possibly it is the female who initiates the rough
stuff.
Dax, being the connoiseur of Klingon culture that she is, is obviously
able to imitate this behaviour rather effectively. As she is more
athletic than your everyday human female she can survive it.
--
Keith Morrison
lone...@nbnet.nb.ca
Hartunga
In article <5jpu4i$d...@nntp.hut.fi>,
tsal...@lk-hp-26.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote:
>
>Note, however, that modern Trek has been retconning the past as well as
>solidifying the new version of Klingon culture. There are frequent
>references to the bladed-weapon fixation and the honor codes being
>"historical" and "traditional".
The purpose behind the Reformation was not to create "new" Klingons, but
to bring Klingons back to the glories of the past. The Empire wished to
return to the traditions, honor-codes, and bladed weapons of Kahless'
time.
>
>The nature of Klingon "honor" is also frequently challenged in
>DS9, where many Klingons are just as devious as in TOS, despite
>quoting Kahless's words of wisdom.
Honor is an ideal that the majority of Klingons respect and attempt to
achieve. Like most ideals, few people ever live up to them. I admit many
Klingons probably have a pragmatic view toward life and aren't as
unbending in their values as Worf. That is what makes Worf such a noble
character.
>
>The cultural changes can also take place without the element of racial
>dilution. The driving force in the growing Klingon dissatisfaction may
>be the lack of challenges, or the lack of expansion room, as well as
>the rather abstract lack of perceived honor.
>
>One can also conjure an opposite phenomenon, whereby ridged Klingons for
>some obscure reason undergo genetic engineering to temporarily become
>ridgeless (or blue, or horned, or whatever the fashion happens to be).
>Collectivism seems a natural state of mind for Klingons, despite their
>apparent individualism. What kind of individualism is it anyway to
>conform to the masses of other individualists? :)
>
>This echoes interestingly the Larry Niven idea of Kdaptist Kzin,
>a subset of a race of catlike warriors who after losing a war to humans
>begin to worship the human form. A group of Klingons might well become
>"humanophiles" after finding the smooth-headed Earthlings
>worthy adversaries.
>
>Similarly, there is a definite "romulophile" movement in the current
>Klingon society, no doubt having its origins in the decadent TOS era
>as well. I would not wonder the least if some Klingons started remodeling
>their ears, or turning their heads into Jem'Hadar spikeballs to better
>imitate the highly esteemed Dominion dogs of war...
You don't want to make a theory overly complicated by being too clever. I
chose the "watering down" of the Klingons because it is the simplest and
most natural solution. As a people grow and interact with other groups
they normally begin to lose their identity, culturally and even racially.
We have already seen several Klingon cross-breeds on ST. Imagine the
results of a thousand years of "mudding up" the gene pool. Thats why I
said the smooth head Klingons are, in essence, a mongrel race. This also
explains why sometimes Klingon blood is purple and sometimes its red.
Even though the smooth head Klingons went through genetic reconstruction,
it couldn't change them completely. The "pureblood" Klingons have violet
blood and the "mongrel" Klingons have crimson blood.
>
>I don't dispute the possibility of extensive genocide accompanying the
>TOS/Movies change.
If you reread my post I never said that the Reformation was genocidal.
At the time, the majority of Klingons were smooth head "mongrels." Most,
like Kang, Kor & Koloth, willfully had themselves genetically
reconstructed so they could resemble the Klingons of yore. It was only a
few small pockets that were seen as troublemakers and non-conformists
which were killed, sometimes unjustifiably. In spite of its negative
aspects, as a whole the Reformation would have left the Klingon Empire
rejuvenated and unified.
>I doubt shame is a driving force in Klingon affairs (save for Worf's
>personal affairs, and he's no real Klingon anyway).
If honor is so important to a Klingon, then its counterpart, shame, must
also play a role. Two of my inspirations for this theory were Nazi
Germany and Maoist China. Honor is not an essential part in lives of the
Chinese or the Germans, yet they look back in shame at these periods in
their history and dislike talking about them.
>Anyway, that's my take on it. Klingons just seem too fun to be overtly
>worried about past mistakes.
Laid back is not a description I would normally associate with the
Klingons. They may have an indifferrent, s--t happens, attitude toward
life in existentialist barbarian sort of way. But whenever a Klingon does
something, it is always very intense.
>
Over time, cultures develop and naturally lose or alter ancient
traditions. Eventually, for whatever reason, the people become
dissatisfied with their lives and look for solutions. A faction will
emerge calling for a return to the romanticized "good-old-days."
The Klingons embraced this movement with their usual ardor. They change
not only their clothing, behavior, and weapons they also went so far as to
change themselves physically so the could be more "Klingon." This is why
O'brien and Bashir are surprised at the smooth head Klingons. They
would've learned about the Klingon Reformation in history class, but
failed to make the connection. The genetic reconstrucion was a small part
of a much larger event.
Most social revolutions have negative aspects. Action far exceeds
judgment. As events spiral out of control, a mob mentality sets in.
Anything seen to be in opposition to the movement is met with hostility.
This would be especially true of the Klingons. The Federation may find
strength in diversity but the Klingons are definitely ethnocentric.
There is also the issue of timing. There is only about a decade between
TOS and TMP, yet the Klingons are completely different. For such a
widespread and profound change you need not only a populace's cooperation,
you need their enthusiasm. It would be impossible for something like a
government sponsored program to be responsible for such a change in this
short of time. On the other hand, a social revolution has an impact on a
culture within only a few years.
Timo S Saloniemi
In article <01bc526c$a6157160$ea2f3fcb@hal-9000> "bcaton" <bca...@sia.net.au> writes:
>Bit of a tangent: how is it that there seems to be so many cross
>klingon/human hybbrids, when Klingon sex is so violent? I mean, humans are
>pretty fragile relatively, and some of us at least prefer our lovers didn't
>actually tear off chunks from our bodies!
It's the female who is the aggressive participant in initiating mating.
She may probably also be the active part in the actual copulation,
leading to possible damage to the alien male but little damage to the
important participant (the one who will carry the baby).
Anyway, Klingon sex is probably greatly exaggerated anyway. Dax survived
Worf just fine (what with some broken ribs and dislocated arms etc.),
while Worf looked pretty much beaten afterwards, too. And after all,
even Sarek was inhumanely strong, with non-fatal consequences to Amanda.
I'd guess that when your Klingon partner wants to bite off a piece of
your cheek, and you DON'T resist, s/he suddenly loses all interest or
at least calms down...
And finally, the hybrids are probably created by test-tube means anyway.
in some cases, the parents of a hybrid child may never have actually
copulated the way either of the species would naturally perform the act.
>Another tangent; if something bit off a chunk from Odo, would he maintain a
>control over the separated piece? Or must he remain continuously connected?
The Feds formed the theory of changeling-exposing blood tests on the basis
of Odo's inability to control small chunks of himself. If Odo's bitten
(or shattered to pieces, as when he was a glass in "Vortex"), the pieces
will revert to gelatinous form and try to rejoin.
But mature changelings may have much more skill in retaining control.
We haven't seen exaclty what they are capable of, but they were able
to fool the blood tests in "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost".
Greg King
Steve Pugh wrote:
> >> >Why does the new vulcan on Voyager, keep his quarters so dark? He's
> >> >supposed to be from a planet that's extremely bright. So much so that
> >> >vulcans evolved an extra eyelid to protect their vision.
>
> Continuity? Spock's quarters in TOS and the films were always darker
> than anyone else's. Which Vulcan are we talking about anyway,
> Tuvok or Terik?
That's not what I remember! Spock's quarters were well-lit on the TV
show. We aren't talking about Terik; he was a guest character.
Greg King
Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
> In article <01bc526c$a6157160$ea2f3fcb@hal-9000> "bcaton" <bca...@sia.net.au> writes:
> >Another tangent: if something bit off a chunk from Odo, would he maintain
> >control over the separated piece? Or, must he remain continuously connected?
>
> The Feds formed the theory of changeling-exposing blood tests on the basis
> of Odo's inability to control small chunks of himself. If Odo is bitten
> (or shattered to pieces, as when he was a glass in "Vortex"), then the pieces
> will revert to gelatinous form, and try to rejoin.
> But, mature changelings may have much more skill in retaining control.
> We haven't seen exaclty what they are capable of, but they were able
> to fool the blood tests in "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost".
I don't remember seeing any Founders actually being blood-tested.
But, it certainly was implied that they can "beat" that test.
The number-two Klingon leader (Gowron's top general) would have needed
to bleed, on a regular basis, to "prove" that he wasn't what he was
(a changeling provocateur).
David Pendleton
tsal...@lk-hp-33.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote:
>It's the female who is the aggressive participant in initiating mating.
Then how do you explain the broken ribs etc. sustained by Dax. Worf
was pretty darn aggressive in the scene I saw.
Although Worf was beaten up too, it is clear that Dax was not the only
aggressor.
I would anwer instead that the reason there are so many Cross breeds
reflects on human nature to seek what they admire. Many humans admire
strength and the Klingon's Warrior mentality would be a draw. Others
see strength in Soicism and Intelligence. However the lack of sexual
intimacy and drive would wreck most Human Vulcan pairings. I could
easily see with more open borders a strong draw by Romulans to humans
although the revers would seem to be rare based mostly on the Romulan
upbringing and attitude toward other races as "lesser" races.
I'm stepping way off the politically correct path here but human men
tend to be drawn to demure, soft, tantalizing women more than to women
who display aggression and violence. This may explain why fewer
matings seem to occur with human men and Klingon women. Of course
it may also be due to the fact that they're really ugly (IMHO). The
only Klingon woman I ever found attractive was the one on the Original
series "Day of the Dove" back when Klingons, Vulcans, and Romulans all
looked alike (except for the skin color). Now there was a babe who
could bite a chunk out of me and get away with it:-)
Respectfully yours,
/_\ |\ |>
/ \dm. |/avid |endleton mailto:dpe...@iwvisp.com
___
_____.------'---`------._____
____.----' '' ' "" " """ " "" ` `` `----.____
=======================================================
`---.___``` ` "" " "" ' '''___.---'
.---. `------.___.------' .---.
((___)) \``|_|''/ ((___))
`-.-' __>\|o|/<__ `-.-'
| .'.'__|_|__`.`. |
`------|_.-' .---. `-._|------'
`-._ `---' _.-'
`-----'
Keith Morrison
David Pendleton wrote:
>
> tsal...@lk-hp-33.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote:
>
> >It's the female who is the aggressive participant in initiating mating.
>
> Then how do you explain the broken ribs etc. sustained by Dax. Worf
> was pretty darn aggressive in the scene I saw.
> Although Worf was beaten up too, it is clear that Dax was not the only
> aggressor.
The female is the aggressor in *initiating* mating. After that all hell
breaks loose. Remember that Worf indicated Klingon "romance" involves
males reciting poetry while dodging furniture being tossed by the
female.
Dax, because of her knowledge of Klingons, is able to imitate this
behaviour (and enjoy it, apparently). However, given that the two
human-
Klingon crossbreeds that have been seen (both with human mothers) and
Worf's less aggressive relationship with Troi, Klingon males can have
a more passive, human, sexual relationship.
--
Keith Morrison
lone...@nbnet.nb.ca
Cory C Cummings
I had read somewhere (FASA roleplaying games maybe) that the Klingon
empire had genetically engineered klingon/human hybrids in order to better
understand human psychology, and get better diplomats. (Despite their
warrior culture, anyone who thinks the Empire doesn't use diplomats needs
to pull there head out...)
This is still the best explanation I've seen other than that the feature
films and new series have (had) larger bugets... :-)
Cory Cummings
University of Montana
mer...@selway.umt.edu
Secretary, High Council of Xena (All praise Her name)
GGGGGG DDDDDDDD GGGGGG LLL CCCCCC
GGGGGGGG DDDDDDDDD GGGGGGGG LLL CCCCCCCC
GGG GGG DDD DDD GGG GGG LLL CCC CCC
GGG GGG DDD DDD GGG GGG LLL CCC CCC
GGG DDD DDD GGG LLL CCC
GGG DDD DDD GGG LLL CCC
GGG GGGGG DDD DDD GGG GGGGG LLL CCC
GGG GGGGG DDD DDD GGG GGGGG LLL CCC CCC
GGG GGG DDD DDD GGG GGG LLL CCC CCC
GGGGGGGG DDDDDDDDD GGGGGGGG LLLLLLLLLLL CCCCCCCCC
GGGGGG DDDDDDDD GGGGGG LLLLLLLLLLL CCCCCCC
valdar
Best explaination I've heard. Other them possibly a mutation from the
nuclear accident in Undiscovered Country.
A massive quantum flux as the result of a planetary power system
goin critical resulting in the head wrinkle mutation.
Matthew Sebourn
They don't need to resemble Koreans any more.
matt.
Rob A. Shinn
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.970501...@selway.umt.edu>,
mer...@selway.umt.edu says...
> I had read somewhere (FASA roleplaying games maybe) that the Klingon
> empire had genetically engineered klingon/human hybrids in order to better
> understand human psychology, and get better diplomats. (Despite their
> warrior culture, anyone who thinks the Empire doesn't use diplomats needs
> to pull there head out...)
>
> This is still the best explanation I've seen other than that the feature
> films and new series have (had) larger bugets... :-)
...Of course the FASA roleplaying games wouldn't be canon, but lets not
jump into the pit, shall we? :)
Personally, I don't like that theory because that would be implying that
ALL of the Klingons Kirk & Co. encountered on TOS were these hybrids.
And since Kirk & Co. would probably *know* that (unless I'm
overestimating Starfleet intelligence of the time), it wouldn't make
sense that Kirk & Co. would call them "Klingons."
"Captain, that man is a *KLINGON*!"
:)
--
Rob A. Shinn flames >/dev/null
===================================
Hotmail: rob_...@hotmail.com
Juno: su...@juno.com
FlashNet: peg...@flash.net
WWW: http://www.coming.soon
====================================
Silverheart
Rob A. Shinn wrote in article ...
>
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.970501...@selway.umt.edu>,
>mer...@selway.umt.edu says...
>> I had read somewhere (FASA roleplaying games maybe) that the Klingon
>> empire had genetically engineered klingon/human hybrids in order to
better
>> understand human psychology, and get better diplomats. (Despite their
>> warrior culture, anyone who thinks the Empire doesn't use diplomats
needs
>> to pull there head out...)
>>
>> This is still the best explanation I've seen other than that the
feature
>> films and new series have (had) larger bugets... :-)
>
>..Of course the FASA roleplaying games wouldn't be canon, but lets not
>jump into the pit, shall we? :)
>
>Personally, I don't like that theory because that would be implying that
>ALL of the Klingons Kirk & Co. encountered on TOS were these hybrids.
>And since Kirk & Co. would probably *know* that (unless I'm
>overestimating Starfleet intelligence of the time), it wouldn't make
>sense that Kirk & Co. would call them "Klingons."
>
>"Captain, that man is a *KLINGON*!"
>
>Rob A. Shinn flames >/dev/null
Merlyn is closer to correct than you think. But on to other points.
! FASA should be canon. They were the first and were backed by Paramount
until they <FASA> started to make more money than Paramount thought was
posible. Do I see a theme of the Almighty Paramount striling againt?
There are also Klingon/Romulan hybrids. Both hybrids were genetically made
for use in spying. Later they became diplomats. This is becuase a diplomat
can get at more secrets than a spy. Thus making the best spy and putting
them underneth the enemies nose.
Jon Nailor
Jeffery Roseborough
RE: Klingon's appearance. Several months? ago on DS9 when they all
went back in time to catch a killer Worf said it was a "genetic
engineering mistake" and didn't want to talk about it. The episode
used clips from TOS "Trouble with Tribbles". Someone remarked about
the "old" Klingon's appearance and asked Worf about it. Good episode
of DS9 overall!
Tabu
In article <5kgtur$o...@news.cybernews.net>,
"Silverheart" <Silve...@barefactsbbs.com> wrote:
>
> Rob A. Shinn wrote in article ...
>>
>>In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.970501...@selway.umt.edu>,
>>mer...@selway.umt.edu says...
>>> I had read somewhere (FASA roleplaying games maybe) that the Klingon
>>> empire had genetically engineered klingon/human hybrids in order to
>better
>>> understand human psychology, and get better diplomats. (Despite their
>>> warrior culture, anyone who thinks the Empire doesn't use diplomats
>needs
>>> to pull there head out...)
>>>
>>> This is still the best explanation I've seen other than that the
>feature
>>> films and new series have (had) larger bugets... :-)
>>
>
>Merlyn is closer to correct than you think. But on to other points.
>
>! FASA should be canon. They were the first and were backed by Paramount
>until they <FASA> started to make more money than Paramount thought was
>posible. Do I see a theme of the Almighty Paramount striling againt?
>
>There are also Klingon/Romulan hybrids. Both hybrids were genetically made
>for use in spying. Later they became diplomats. This is becuase a diplomat
>can get at more secrets than a spy. Thus making the best spy and putting
>them underneth the enemies nose.
>
>Jon Nailor
>
>
>
In the TNG episode, "First Contact" Picard says that the Federation's first
meeting with the Klingons was without any prior surveillance. The initial
contact with the Klingons was disastrous, setting off a century of conflict
between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. It is obvious that the
Klingons had no prior knowledge of humans, much less the time needed for
such an elaborate plot as surgically altering a major portion of the
population so as to be more human. Also, its made clear that the
relationship with the Klingons was antagonistic from the first. The
Klingons never had an opportunity to worm themselves into the favor of
humans.
Besides, in the future, dealing with different alien races is part of
everyday life. Some foreheads ridges more or less wouldn't have made any
difference to anyone. Even with the ridges, the Klingons look more human
than many of the races the Federation consists of or comes in contact with.
If the Klingons really wanted to, they could make themselves appear to be
completely human, like they did with Arne Darvin. So why stop halfway? It
is not the Klingon's appearance that put off humans, its their
personalities. The Klingons made no attempt to soften their raw, violent
aggression.
Furthermore, the idea of the Klingons altering themselves to fit better with
other races goes against the Klingon mentality. They are a race of
conquerors. They do not change, others change to suit them.
Are we expected to buy that the Klingons removed their forehead ridges in
the mistaken belief that the humans would accept them more readily and they
in turn would gain understading of humans? Would the Klingon Empire really
launch such a huge, complicated plot just on such suspect and tenuous
speculation?
Most theories on the Klingons or more or less a matter of personal opinion,
but the FASA theory is preposterous.
Vincent Betes
"Silverheart" <Silve...@barefactsbbs.com> wrote:
> Rob A. Shinn wrote in article ...
>>
>>In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.970501...@selway.umt.edu>,
>>mer...@selway.umt.edu says...
>>> I had read somewhere (FASA roleplaying games maybe) that the Klingon
>>> empire had genetically engineered klingon/human hybrids in order to
>better
>>> understand human psychology, and get better diplomats. (Despite their
>>> warrior culture, anyone who thinks the Empire doesn't use diplomats
>needs
>>> to pull there head out...)
>>>
>>> This is still the best explanation I've seen other than that the
>feature
>>> films and new series have (had) larger bugets... :-)
>>
>>..Of course the FASA roleplaying games wouldn't be canon, but lets not
>>jump into the pit, shall we? :)
>>
>>Personally, I don't like that theory because that would be implying that
>>ALL of the Klingons Kirk & Co. encountered on TOS were these hybrids.
>>And since Kirk & Co. would probably *know* that (unless I'm
>>overestimating Starfleet intelligence of the time), it wouldn't make
>>sense that Kirk & Co. would call them "Klingons."
>>
>>"Captain, that man is a *KLINGON*!"
>>
>>Rob A. Shinn flames >/dev/null
>Merlyn is closer to correct than you think. But on to other points.
>! FASA should be canon. They were the first and were backed by Paramount
>until they <FASA> started to make more money than Paramount thought was
>posible. Do I see a theme of the Almighty Paramount striling againt?
>There are also Klingon/Romulan hybrids. Both hybrids were genetically made
>for use in spying. Later they became diplomats. This is becuase a diplomat
>can get at more secrets than a spy. Thus making the best spy and putting
>them underneth the enemies nose.
>Jon Nailor
In response to Rob A. Shinn's article regarding Klingon/Human hybrids
- this theory doesn't work if you consider the episode where Dax
meets three old Klingon warriors who she knew when she was Curzon Dax.
All three of the Klingons (Kang, Kor, Koloth) were from the original
series and since Curzon Dax knew them when they were young she should
know why the forehead anomaly occured. The episode where Sisko et al
go back in time to the old Enterprise (Trouble With Tribbles) is where
Koloth makes his debut.
Mike Battle
During the production of "The Touble With Tribbles", the makeup artist
(name escapes me, someone will nodoubt supply it) was mortified to
realize he had, in previous episodes, done 2 types of distinctly
inconsistent Klingons, and he attempted to redeem the situation by using
both. If you look closely, you should be able to find 2 different
Klingon appearances just in the OLD footage.
Then came TNG, with MUCH more budget, and Worf, with MUCH better makeup.
Well, they had to explain it SOMEHOW! Should they have claimed he got
his head caught in a mechanical quadrotriticale picking device?
What really did it for me was Bashir & O'Brien in the disciplinary line
from the '60s, getting chewed out by Kirk. (after the fight) A nice
idea, and edited very convincingly, at that.
But, then I LIKE ST, and they can do just about anything they want, and
if I'm STILL entertained by it the fourth time through, it's OK by ME.
Mikie
M. Keane
piggyback
>Jeffery Roseborough wrote:
>>
>> RE: Klingon's appearance. Several months? ago on DS9 when they all
>> went back in time to catch a killer Worf said it was a "genetic
>> engineering mistake" and didn't want to talk about it. The episode
>> used clips from TOS "Trouble with Tribbles". Someone remarked about
>> the "old" Klingon's appearance and asked Worf about it. Good episode
>> of DS9 overall!
Worf did *not* say it was a genetic engineering mistake. He said "They
*are* Klingons. [pause] It's a long story; we do not discuss it with
outsiders."
--
Micheal (Chris) Keane - Associate Professor of Psychogravitational Analysis
Wooden Chair of Gravitational Morality, University of Ediacara
Join the Church of Last Thursday and worship Queen Maeve! E-mail me to join.
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia/thursday.htm
Khalil Bey
Supposedly, the unoffical explanation (which dates back to the first
appearance of klingons with ridges in the first movie) is that the ones
with ridges are "southern klingons" while the others are "northern
klingons" (and this is the best Gene was able to come up with)
M. Keane <ae...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<5orrtr$e...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>...
'Droid
Khalil Bey wrote:
>
> Supposedly, the unoffical explanation (which dates back to the first
> appearance of klingons with ridges in the first movie) is that the ones
> with ridges are "southern klingons" while the others are "northern
> klingons" (and this is the best Gene was able to come up with)
>
> M. Keane <ae...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
But this doesn't explain those who sprouted ridges in later life, eg:
Kang. According to the Fact Files (which I take as canon, Paramount
endorsed and produced), he is the same person in TOS and TNG time
periods. He first appeared as the young captain when an entity forced
his crew to fight Kirk's for sustenance. He finally died fighting the
Albino on a DS9 episode, having appeared in the STVI incident with Sulu.
The same applies to Kor and Koloth.
'Droid
Leon
I like to think that the forehead was genetic enginering to make the
klingons seem
'nicer' to the humans.
Rich & Lynn Cressotti
Worf was asked this question in one episode. His responce was, "we don't talk about it with
outsiders."
--
Rich
cres...@worldnet.att.net
It's not arrogant to think YOU could find an answer when no one else could.
It's arrogant to think that just because YOU can't come up with an answer, one doesn't exist".
Leon <Le...@hale-bopp.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<01bc826b$e094f020$5866...@hale-bopp.demon.co.uk>...
Brian Barjenbruch
Incorrect. The change is retroactive; the Klingons have always had
ridges. There have been four major Klingons (Kor, Koloth, Kang, and
Kahless himself) who have all appeared as ridgeless Klingons in the old
series, but had ridges in their TNG/DS9 appearances. The Klingons were
always supposed to have ridges, but the primitive special effects of TOS
wouldn't let them...
Brian
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Saturday morning serials, chapters 1 through 15
Fly paper, penny loafers, Lucky Strike green
Flat tops, sock hops, Studebaker, Pepsi please
Ah, do you remember these?
-- The Statler Brothers
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Barjenbruch
> The idea that the TNG Klingons is how Roddenberry "always" pictured the
> Klingon race and that only the TOS makeup budget prevented him from having
> them presented this way from the start cannot be true. TAS pictures the
> Klingons the same way that TOS did
You are aware, are you not, that the animated series is not canon?
J'ai envie du poulet ce soir!
Why does everyone have to read into these things too much? The reason the
Klingons have the forehead ridges is that the budget of the shows/movies
makes that much make-up more feasable. The reason they brought it up in
the DS9 Tribble episode was as a point of humor, which I think they
handled quite nicely.
-----------------------------Tadd Barnes-----------------------------
-"Han me Boogie..." Ta...@lsds.com "Haggis?"
-Grandpa Jabba Barn...@bigvax.alfred.edu -Ramirez
http://www.lsds.com/tadd
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
McReynolds
Michael T Svitak wrote:
>
> house. All the Klingons seen in TOS are from this one Great House, not a
> huge leap since we only actually see Klingons in a few (8/9) episodes.
Actually only three.
> regrew his ridges nad joined another house. Anyone see any problems with
> this explanation?
Nope. However, I don't agree. It does fit the facts; good job!
-McReynolds
Henry Wolff
From what I have seen/read back a couple years ago
somewhere that I've forgotten about now,
The Klingons in the old series were a lower form or something.
The ridged Klingons have since taken over and got rid of the old ones....
can anyone tell me were I saw this??? or if this is a bunch of ho-ey!
Henry Wolff
Star Trek Trading Post
http://www.greatbasin.net/~hatsoft/newtrek/index.html
M. Keane <ae...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
Ruediger Landmann
Klingon ridges... the current state of play on the Trek newsgroups...
Klingon skull ridges have caused headaches since their first
appearance in ST:TMP nearly 20 years ago. Here's a theory which I believe
fits all the available facts as presented so far.
The basic premise that I proceed from is that Klingon ridges grow
heavier and more elaborate as Klingons age. This is evidenced by:
1) Worf's ridges grow bigger and heavier during the course of TNG and DS9
episodes (9 years of screen time).
2) Alexander has small ridges, but when we see a future version of him in
"Firstborn" (TNG, season 7) his ridge is far more developed.
3) The young Klingons in "Birthright" (TNG, season 7) all have small
ridges.
4) Adolescent Klingons have medium-sized ridges, eg. Klaa (STV:TFF) Duras'
heir.
5) The really old Klingons we've seen have extremely heavy and large
ridges, eg Korrd (STV:TFF), K'Empec, and Kor, Kang, and Koloth as seen in
DS9's "Blood Oath".
It should also be pointed out that this does not necessarily mean that all
Klingons have the same sized crests, even in maturity, and that different
Klingons' crests might not grow at different speeds.
Therefore, for example, although Kruge's crest in STIII:TSFS is no larger
than Worf's in TNG season 1, this does not necessarily mean that they are
the same age.
The basic problem remains, however, why the Klingons in TOS and TAS had no
ridges at all, especially since they are all obviously significantly
older than Alexander and the children in "Birthright", and since three of
these Klingons later re-appeared with well-developed ridges. Another clue
is Worf's line in "Trials and Tribble-ations" that this is NOT something
that Klingons talk about.
The solution that I profer is that either the TOS/TAS Klingons were
injected with an agent that retarded or stopped their crest growth (or,
less likely, reversed it) or that they were surgically altered (like Kirk,
Picard, and Troi were to pass as Romulans). Either (or possibly a
combination of both) of these methods could have been used to render the
Klingons ridgeless a la TOS/TAS.
Why this would have been done is a matter of speculation. Most of the
other theories advanced about human/Klingon "fusions" still work:
They could have done this in order to pass off as humans in order to
infiltrate the Federation. Perhaps Worf's discomfort in "Trials" was at
the thought of Klingons stooping to such a low tactic.
It also could have had something to do with fashion (and yes, Klingons
ARE vain... consider the Ambassador's party in STVI:TUC), but I also
question this... surely it would be more in keeping with Klingon psyche to
want the BIGGEST ridges rather than the smallest? (OTOH, this could be
the very reason that Worf was so reluctant to talk about it)
It may also have been something factional; a physical, tangible break with
(presumably) more traditional, more conservative Klingons. This would
probably have been shocking, and even obscene to other Klingons... a
bodily rejection of Klingon heritage. Either Kor, Kang, and Koloth
belonged to this faction, or their parents did.
In any case, once the need for being ridgeless disappeared, Klingons who
had been so altered either stopped taking their anti-ridge formula and
grew ridges as normal, or were given an antidote that negated the
ridge-stopper. Thus Kor, Kang, Koloth et al would get their ridges. Maybe
they even had a ridge-accelarator which made up for lost time. If surgery
was involved, then more surgery could reverse what had been done.
Kahless must also be mentioned here. When first presented in TOS' "The
Savage Curtain", he was ridgeless, but when appearing in TNG has a ridge.
The explanation for this is simple, and actually independent of the above.
"The Savage Curtain" Kahless was drawn from Kirk's mind, and from his
mental image of what Kahless should look like, just like Abraham Lincoln
was. This also explains why he was dressed in a contemporary
Klingon uniform. Kahless "really" had ridges, but Kirk didn't visualize
him like that. Whether at this stage Kirk had ever even seen a ridged
Klingon is not certain.
The question still remains, however, as to why the Starfleet personnel in
"Trials and Tribbleations" were so surprised to see the TOS/TAS style
Klingons. I suggest that the ridgeless Klingons appeared for such a short
span of time and in such limited numbers that 80 years later they were all
but forgotten, especially since it is something that the Klingons
themselves would prefer to keep quiet. Furthermore, even with their
appearance documented in photos, videos, and holos, it's one thing to
*know* about something, and another thing entirely to experience it
first-hand.
OTHER POSSIBILITIES
1) All the Klingons on TOS and TAS were late developers in the ridge
department. This may be because they were members of a different race of
Klingons that do not grow their ridges until later in life. This
explanation does not seem to sit well with Worf's discomfort in "Trials",
however, which seemed to imply that the cause was something deliberate and
shameful.
2) It has also been suggested that at some stage after TAS, the Klingons
embarked on a programme where they genetically altered themselves to a
more primitive version of their species. Worf's shame would then come from
the fact that his race had ever evolved into the more human-looking race
familiar from TOS and TAS. This theory requires the Klingon race to have
evolved from its TNG form to its TOS form in only 1,500 years (the time
since Kahless). In terms of Terran evolution, this would be unthinkable,
but perhaps life on Qo'nos evolves much faster than life on Earth. (And
even this is MUCH slower than evolution already seen in Star Trek on the
Genesis planet). If life on Qo'nos is so fast paced, this might account
for the aggressively expansionist part of the Klingon psyche.
3) Perhaps the TOS/TAS Klingons were a separate race of Klingon that did
not grow a ridge at all. Sometime in the years before TNG, the ridged
Klingon race became the overwhelmingly dominant power in the Empire, and
forced the non-ridged race of Klingons to either adapt or be killed. Those
would would not be genetically/surgically altered were exterminated.
FINAL NOTE
The idea that the TNG Klingons is how Roddenberry "always" pictured the
Klingon race and that only the TOS makeup budget prevented him from having
them presented this way from the start cannot be true. TAS pictures the
Klingons the same way that TOS did; without any less cost than presenting
them as TNG Klingons. The change in Klingon makeup cannot have a history
much before ST:TMP.
Last updated: 28 February 1997
Michael T Svitak
In article <01bc826b$e094f020$5866...@hale-bopp.demon.co.uk>,
"Leon" <Le...@hale-bopp.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>I like to think that the forehead was genetic enginering to make the
>klingons seem
>'nicer' to the humans.
Here's my take on it:
We've seen that Klingons have different types of ridges so why not a group
that had no ridges at all. All Klingons with no ridges are of one family
and belong to one Great House, the largest House in the Empire. When a
Klingon was accepted into this House, as Martok accepted Worf into his,
he/she removed his/her ridges as a sign of allegiance. Klingon ships are
owned and operated by Klingon Houses so that everyone on board those ships
is a member of that House, by birth or by allegiance, or is allied with that
house. All the Klingons seen in TOS are from this one Great House, not a
huge leap since we only actually see Klingons in a few (8/9) episodes. The
Great House entered a feud with a small much lesser House but, the memebers
of this lesser House were the fiercest warriors in the Empire and the Great
House lost many warriors. Some of the surviving members of the Great House
were embarrassed by their defeat at the hands of such a lesser House and
visited dishonorable acts of revenge upon the lesser House. The other
members of the Great house upset by the dishonorable actions of their
brethern began killing them for their dishonor. Others commited ritual
suicide so that they could die with honor. In the end this Great House tore
itself apart. Those members still alive regrew their ridges or had
prosthetic implants inserted to hide their former allegiance to such a
dishonorable House. They then sought refuge in other houses. Klingons do
not speak of it with outsiders out of respect for a once Great House that
had a dishonorable fall.
It's as plausible explaination as anything offered so far and I think it
covers all the bases. All Klingons see in TOS were members of this house.
Between the last TOS and ST:TMP was when the feud occured so there were no
more flat headed Klingons. Kahless was not a member of this house so he had
ridges. Dax's friend Koloth was adopted into this House, survived the feud,
regrew his ridges nad joined another house. Anyone see any problems with
this explanation?
John H. Harris
On 26 Jun 1997 20:40:32 GMT, "Rich & Lynn Cressotti"
<cres...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Worf was asked this question in one episode. His responce was, "we don't talk about it with
>outsiders."
>--
>Rich
>cres...@worldnet.att.net
>
>It's not arrogant to think YOU could find an answer when no one else could.
>It's arrogant to think that just because YOU can't come up with an answer, one doesn't exist".
>
>
>Leon <Le...@hale-bopp.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
><01bc826b$e094f020$5866...@hale-bopp.demon.co.uk>...
>>
>>
>> I like to think that the forehead was genetic enginering to make the
>> klingons seem
>> 'nicer' to the humans.
>>
This is probably the best guess, but for a slightly different reason.
It is to tactical advantage to make one's opponents underestimate you.
The Klingons, in being altered to appear human, were hoping to lead
humanity into thinking they were human. Thus, in hand-to-hand combat,
the Klingon would be at an advantage due to his/her greater physical
abilities and "warfare-evolved" body.
John H. Harris
Henry Wolff
Actually, I think I recall having read somewhere that I now can't recall
where, that the ridgeless Klingons were 'The High Caste' and later
overthrouwn and exterminated by the Kilngons with ridges. The ridgys, being
a 'lower' race would be ashamed to admit that they were once subjegated by
more docile Klingons - don't you think.
Sounds like a fine theory to me, although the reality is the production
budgets are light years bigger in the newer series.
--
Henry Wolff
Star Trek Collectibles Trading Post
Free4All Classifieds, Clipart, Animations, Sounds, Fonts, Pictures and
more...
http://www.greatbasin.net/~hatsoft/newtrek/index.html
Ruediger Landmann <s30...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in article
<5ov8l7$j3k$1...@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>...
McReynolds
Khalil Bey wrote:
>
> Supposedly, the unoffical explanation (which dates back to the first
> appearance of klingons with ridges in the first movie) is that the ones
> with ridges are "southern klingons" while the others are "northern
> klingons" (and this is the best Gene was able to come up with)
Besides the obvious Kor, koloth, and Kang continuity problems, there is
also the fact that Gene was JUST KIDDING when he said that.
-McReynolds
bigg
Yes. It's FICTION.
Hunter
> On 26 Jun 1997, Khalil Bey wrote:
>
> > Supposedly, the unoffical explanation (which dates back to the first
> > appearance of klingons with ridges in the first movie) is that the ones
> > with ridges are "southern klingons" while the others are "northern
> > klingons" (and this is the best Gene was able to come up with)
> >
>
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.97062...@fire.lsds.com>,
ta...@lsds.com says...
> Why does everyone have to read into these things too much? The reason the
> Klingons have the forehead ridges is that the budget of the shows/movies
> makes that much make-up more feasable. The reason they brought it up in
> the DS9 Tribble episode was as a point of humor, which I think they
> handled quite nicely.
>
> -----------------------------Tadd Barnes-----------------------------
> -"Han me Boogie..." Ta...@lsds.com "Haggis?"
> -Grandpa Jabba Barn...@bigvax.alfred.edu -Ramirez
> http://www.lsds.com/tadd
> -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
>
>
------
Another kill-joy!! Listen, I got a little annoyed about the "Why Picard
speaks English" and the Why the Hell the man is bald?" controversies
because the answer is, IMHO, obvious, viz.: That he was educated that way
and/or is a proud perfectionist who wants to get it right. and 2: He
wants to be. Two simple answers to mundane questions. However, I do not
get worked up at what I regard as useless questions like the way you do!
These Star Wars vs. Star Trek and B5 and the Head bone questions are
Garak-made questions for a Sci-Fi NG. This is our reason for being here!
Lighten up! Ignore the thread!! Chill!!! Take a tranq!!!
---Hunter Read the below:
"The higher, the fewer."
----Alexander Mogh
From ST:TNG
Chris Cracknell
As much as I hate the Head Ridge debate... I can't help posting to it when
I see it.
Okay. I've posted this explanation before, just after the time travel tribble
episode, but I'll post it again now. As far as I'm concerned, until someone
comes up with a better explanation or Paramount offers one themselves, I'll
hold this as true.
CRACKERS' THEORY OF KLINGON SKULL TYPES
We know that thousands of years ago Klingons had headbumps on their skulls.
Ancient artwork and even a cloned Kahles have shown us this. But then, for
some unknown reason they were smooth headed during the TOS era, headridges
of a very uniform type appeared during ST:TMP and over the course of the
movie era they evolved into unique headridges on each klingon.
We also know that at one time the Klingons were conquered by a race from
the Gama Quadrant that they called the Hurk (Klingon word meaning "outsider"
or some such thing). Eventually the Klingons revolted and overthrew their
Hurk oppressors. This occupation took place after the time of Kahles.
My theory incorporates the changes in Klingon headbumps and the Hurk occupation
of the Klingon homeworld and involves much speculation. However, it is
speculation that has not been contradicted by any ST episode.
The Hurk were a race that not only conquered worlds, but to a certain degree
they biologically assimilated the conquered races. The Hurks looked much
more like humans than like Klingons so they genetically altered the klingons
when they conquered them so as to give them the same morphological features
as themselves. This included smooth foreheads.
Thus for a number of generations the klingons looked very much like the Hurk.
Then one day they overthrew the Hurk. I speculate that this is when the
klingons aquired technologies such as space flight, warp drive, and disruptors.
They wern't developed by the klingons, but taken from their former captors.
Now the klingons, with their new toys, set about creating an empire of their
own. Their highest priority was to understand this new technology and use
it for conquest. So disruptors and spaceships took priority over
genetic engineering.
This most likely took place shortly before the TOS era. During the TOS
era the klingons were still mostly interested in empire building. Then
came the movie era... the Klingons had their large empire and began to turn
some of their attention towards other areas of science such as genetic
engineering. In ST:TMP we saw the results of their first experiments in
restoring their appearance back to it's original state before the Hurk
occupation. Over the course of the movie era they further refined their
technique until Klingon DNA was completely restored to it's pre-occupation
state.
As you can tell... this is a pretty long story.
Now, the Klingons are a very proud race. And as we've seen from Gowron's
account of the Klingon Civil War, they're very much into revisionist
history. So it stands to reason that they don't like to talk about
that period of history when they were a conquered people. And it must bother
them greatly that they were so conquered as to have their DNA violated to
make them look more like what their captors wanted them to. So as far
as the Klingons themselves are concerned, they've always had headbumps,
end of story. The whole thing is something they're very relucant to talk
about with outsiders because it brings up the painful subject of their
once being a conquered people.
And there you have it... a long story that they don't like to discuss with
outsiders.
This is the explanation that lets me sleep at night.
CRACKERS
(Went to bed and bumped his head from hell!!!)
--
Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\
*NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/
Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/=
Wayne
On 27 Jun 1997 00:15:44 GMT, "Henry Wolff"
<henry...@hatsoftnevada.lovelock.nv.us> wrote:
>From what I have seen/read back a couple years ago
>somewhere that I've forgotten about now,
>
>The Klingons in the old series were a lower form or something.
>The ridged Klingons have since taken over and got rid of the old ones....
>can anyone tell me were I saw this??? or if this is a bunch of ho-ey!
>
Alot of the books put forth this theory, but it hasn't been mentioned
in any of the shows.
Wayne
On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:50:10 -0500, McReynolds <rmc...@pop.flash.net>
wrote:
>Michael T Svitak wrote:
>>
>> house. All the Klingons seen in TOS are from this one Great House, not a
>> huge leap since we only actually see Klingons in a few (8/9) episodes.
>
>Actually only three.
>
No, they are in at least 7.
>
>-McReynolds
Wayne
>> The idea that the TNG Klingons is how Roddenberry "always" pictured the
>> Klingon race and that only the TOS makeup budget prevented him from having
>> them presented this way from the start cannot be true. TAS pictures the
>> Klingons the same way that TOS did
>
>You are aware, are you not, that the animated series is not canon?
>
So? Roddenberry was still involved with it. I think this is a valid
point. If he always wanted the Klingons to look like they do now,
then why not change them in TAS. It wouldn't make one bit of
difference to the budget how you made them look.
McReynolds
Wayne wrote:
>
> No, they are in at least 7.
I see: 1.) "Errand of Mercy," 2.) "Friday's Child," 3.) "The Trouble
With Tribbles," 4.) "A Private Little War," 5.) "Elaan of Troyius," 6.)
"Day of the Dove," and 7.) "The Savage Curtain." Okay, I guess you're
right! Consider me corrected.
-McReynolds
ROBOT
*GREET.INGS*!
Hi, 'Droid! I LOVE your NAME! So, about these "Lobsters" on the Klingon's forheads: I figure
they had been surgically/genetically altered just before the Tribble incident, and later
UN-altered back to their usual ridged appearance. Either that, or the Tribbles themselves
caused an allergic mutation when Scotty transported the whole kit & kaboodle over to their
engine room where they'd be no Tribble at all....
*snicker* :] ROBOSMILEY
=OHM SWEET OHM=
RO...@humboldt1.com
http://www.ypn.com/personal/pages/ROBOT -(Foto & Profile/Personal Data)-
http://www.scifi.com -(I live in The DOMINION Members Lounge. Same Foto, different Text)-
+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+
=KRAFTWERK=KRAFTWERK=KRAFTWERK=KRAFTWERK=KRAFTWERK=KRAFTWERK=
+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+
'Droid <nm...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in article <33B2B1...@netcomuk.co.uk>...
> Khalil Bey wrote:
> >
> > Supposedly, the unoffical explanation (which dates back to the first
> > appearance of klingons with ridges in the first movie) is that the ones
> > with ridges are "southern klingons" while the others are "northern
> > klingons" (and this is the best Gene was able to come up with)
> >
> > M. Keane <ae...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
>
'Droid
> > Khalil Bey wrote:
> > >
> > > Supposedly, the unoffical explanation (which dates back to the first
> > > appearance of klingons with ridges in the first movie) is that the ones
> > > with ridges are "southern klingons" while the others are "northern
> > > klingons" (and this is the best Gene was able to come up with)
> > >
> > > M. Keane <ae...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
> >
> > But this doesn't explain those who sprouted ridges in later life, eg:
> > Kang. According to the Fact Files (which I take as canon, Paramount
> > endorsed and produced), he is the same person in TOS and TNG time
> > periods. He first appeared as the young captain when an entity forced
> > his crew to fight Kirk's for sustenance. He finally died fighting the
> > Albino on a DS9 episode, having appeared in the STVI incident with Sulu.
> > The same applies to Kor and Koloth.
> >
> > 'Droid
>
> *GREET.INGS*!
> Hi, 'Droid! I LOVE your NAME! So, about these "Lobsters" on the Klingon's forheads: I figure
> they had been surgically/genetically altered just before the Tribble incident, and later
> UN-altered back to their usual ridged appearance. Either that, or the Tribbles themselves
> caused an allergic mutation when Scotty transported the whole kit & kaboodle over to their
> engine room where they'd be no Tribble at all....
> *snicker* :] ROBOSMILEY
>
> =OHM SWEET OHM=
> RO...@humboldt1.com
That's one of the most original theories I've seen. It's also good one.
Given the spread of a epidemic, maybe some kind of virus carried by
tribbles which affected Klingon DNA, this could explain the appearance
of ridges by the movies. The virus would appear to have been beneficial
to the Klingon race making them bulkier and stronger. Any who were
immune would soon be eliminated under the conditions of Klingon society.
Klingon medicine wouldn't have the ability to stop the spread and it's
spread would probably be encouraged once the effects were known.
However, there are problems:
1) Kahless the Clone: could be assumed that the priests added the new
virus genes during the cloning process - the clone wouldn't know the
difference.
2) Why did TOS characters never remark on the change of Klingon
appearance. True it would have happened in the years off camera, but
maybe one of them could have mentioned how they preferred/hated them
more before the transformation.
3) Any others I think of or others think of.
'Droid
Steve Pugh
brian...@worldnet.att.net (Brian Barjenbruch) wrote:
>> The idea that the TNG Klingons is how Roddenberry "always" pictured the
>> Klingon race and that only the TOS makeup budget prevented him from having
>> them presented this way from the start cannot be true. TAS pictures the
>> Klingons the same way that TOS did
>
>You are aware, are you not, that the animated series is not canon?
Depends who you talk to.
Okuda may not consider it canon, but some people do.
Cheers,
Steve
Stephen Richard Pugh http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/ax16
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
McReynolds
'Droid wrote:
>
> That's one of the most original theories I've seen. It's also good one.
> Given the spread of a epidemic, maybe some kind of virus carried by
> tribbles which affected Klingon DNA, this could explain the appearance
> of ridges by the movies. The virus would appear to have been beneficial
> to the Klingon race making them bulkier and stronger. Any who were
> immune would soon be eliminated under the conditions of Klingon society.
> Klingon medicine wouldn't have the ability to stop the spread and it's
> spread would probably be encouraged once the effects were known.
>
> However, there are problems:
> 1) Kahless the Clone: could be assumed that the priests added the new
> virus genes during the cloning process - the clone wouldn't know the
> difference.
>
> 2) Why did TOS characters never remark on the change of Klingon
> appearance. True it would have happened in the years off camera, but
> maybe one of them could have mentioned how they preferred/hated them
> more before the transformation.
>
> 3) Any others I think of or others think of.
Not to mention that the "Tribble-Mutation Theory" (not a new one) just
plain sounds silly. I think ROBOT knew that, hence the robosmiley... If
you ask me, Tribble-Mutation is one of the stupidest, most implausible
theories in existence. Actually, I cringe every four weeks or so when
someone brings it up. TOS got pretty corny on its own, do we have to
ruin it by adding this crap to the fire? Incidentally, TOS is also my
second-favorite trek series!
The only two theories that fit the facts (and don't sound stupid) are
the Two Race (one with ridges, one without but altered later) and the
Genetic or Physical Alteration (or "FASA") Theories. Personally, I say
just go with the Genetic Alteration Theory. It was an established and
accepted part of Klingon lore for the ten odd-years since John M. Ford
metioned Fusions in "The Final Reflection," and it doesn't contradict
anything. Only recently has anybody even begun to debate its accuracy.
Why not just leave it at that?
And I'm sure someone will say: "How come Kor, Koloth, and Kang didn't
have ridges in TOS, but did in DS9?" There is not an easy explanation,
but here's one. The Imperials decided that Fusions were dishonorable,
so they began executing them, or at least exiling them. To escape
presecution, KK&K were physically altered to look Imperial. Worf
doesn't want to talk about the whole thing because persecuting the
Fusions was just as dishonorable as creating them in the first place, so
he'd rather just forget about the whole incident.
-McReynolds
Hunter
In article <01bc84d7$163a8420$8203e5cd@default>, blaqberd@no-
spam.pernet.net, Black Beard said...
> hey all,
> heres my 2 bits worth. tos klingons we saw in the shows were imperials that
> went through cosmetic surgury in order to go on info hunts in our space.
> due to there vital roles in the empire the could not spare the time for
> reversal due to the lower level of med. tech. than would be available in
> the future. and because they were having to go in at random times as needed
> they stayed in the altered form for a long period of time. as to address
> worf coment, perhaps the powers that had been were less honorable in the
> ways of doing things. and now with a more honor bound government the empire
> may be ashamed of the doings of its previous leadership. this is purely the
> idea of my mind and no-one elses. if you do not like it that is ok but if
> it works for you like it does me then grab it and go.
> eddie
> blaq...@nospam.pernet.net
> real people will remove the no spam to respond
> the borg will not understand
>
-----
Actually, this is the most "realistic" and most practical scenario of the
Klingon discrepancy I have yet read. Particularly since the Klingon
Empire in the time of Kirk's first 5 year mission was not exactly a
democracy dedicated to individual rights (It is not "now"). Remember the
Agonizer? I am sure if the Klingon High Command said "you are required to
undergo surgery to infiltrate the Human-dominated Federation." Any good
warrior weather he/she liked it or not (as if he/she had a choice), would
have saluted and said yes sir!. "Today's" Klingons are the pillars of
tolerance compared to the regime of "130 years ago". Perhaps Worf was
referring to this policy of the Military dictatorship when he did not
want to discuss it with outsiders.
My alternative explanation is that those Klingons were racially mixed
and somehow fell out of favor with the regime. Perhaps dare I say, though
genocide? Along with the slave labor camps and genocide of other planets
that was apparently standard operating procedure with the Klingons of
Kirk's time. That is just another possible reason why Klingons do not
discuss it with outsiders; or even perhaps their own people. Of course,
Kang and Koloff survived so I am not saying my hypothesis is not without
its flaws.
---Hunter
Glen Stewart
FWIW, I'd like to add my theory to the "ridged" debate.
Although the "fusions" explanation works, it's never quite done it for me
simply because you have to ask why the Klingons would bother to perpetuate
a less threatening version of themselves in order to deal with the (human
dominated) Federation. I mean, if you were trying to intimidate an
opponent, grab his territory and keep him out of new territories you wanted
then you'd make yourself look more aggressive, not less, as it might make
your adversary think twice about challenging you. This is especially so in
light of the Organian Peace Treaty, where the use of outright military
force is not permitted. Negotiating with an "Imperial race" Klingon,
complete with forehead ridges, fangs and pointy bits on his clothes would
certainly scare the shit out of me, so why would you discard this advantage
and send in these wimpy clowns with their Fu Manchu moustaches that we saw
in TOS?
Well, what's your explanation you ask.
I'm glad you asked me that.
My theory is that the race that we saw in TOS were not true Klingons at
all, but one which had been conquered by the Klingons perhaps centuries
ago. This race, having been so thoroughly assimilated into the empire would
have, over time, lost most of its original identity as a unique society and
come to regard itself as an integral part of Klingon society instead. For
them "Klingon" would not be so much a case of race but a state of mind, to
the extent that eventually they were regarded by the Imperial race as
trusted members of the empire, as evidenced by their being provided with
state of the art starships, and their ability to negotiate and enforce
imperial policy. These people would regard themselves as Klingons and they
would seek to be as much like the Imperial race as possible. By the TOS
era, the Imperial Klingons were perhaps engaged in conquering other
territories on the opposite side of their empire, leaving their trusted
vassals to guard the borders on the Federation side.
Even after first contact between the Empire and the Federation (2218 - ST
Chronology) it may have taken some time for the Klingons to regard the
"weakling" Federation as a threat, to the extent that thirty years later it
is still the vassal race that is mostly responsible for dealing with the
it. By the time the movie era rolls around the message has finally gotten
through to the Imperial race that it has an organised, well armed,
politically opposed, expansionist society on its doorstep, so now we start
to see representatives of the "true" Klingons in ever increasing numbers
appearing to deal with this situation, perhaps elbowing aside their vassals
in their quest for glory and honour. By the time we get to TNG, Imperial
race Klingons are all we see having relegated their client race to less
glorious duties.
So, what about Kor, Kang and Koloth?
They were members of the vassal race of course, and in order for them to
compete with the Imperials they underwent cosmetic surgery to make their
day to day dealings with them more even. Alternatively, perhaps it is an
extension of the vassal race's desire to be "more Klingon". I haven't seen
the DS9 "Tribbles" episode yet, so I can't explain Worf's reaction - but he
could have been embarrased for any number of reasons so I'm just going to
gloss over that part :-)
This theory I think satisfies a number of contradictions. Kirk saw Kahless
as a "vassal" type Klingon because up to that point they were all he'd
dealt with, but the true Kahless when he reappeared as a clone looked like
an imperial race Klingon.
No-one remarked on the differences in appearance as by this time everyone
knew that the the guys calling themselves Klingons were just a vassal race
and "Imperials" were rarely seen in this sector of space at that time.
This theory has been germinating for some time so I may be too close to it
- can anyone see any holes in it?
Glen Stewart
___________
McReynolds <rmc...@pop.flash.net> wrote in article
<33B54C...@pop.flash.net>...
Cmdr. Teihl Armstree
Why Klingons Have Head Ridges;
It was posed that The Klingons had been geneteically tampering with
their gene structure to make suitable spies to insert into the
Federation for Spy-like purposes. This carried over to the fact that the
Klingons wanted to keep the Federation off-balance by perpetuating this
mythos, IE- it looks like you, it must think like you too in some way.
Lulling the Federation and other like races into the false sense of
serenity was a Klingon plot. At least, these were/are the msot feasible
explanations given by Roddenberry and the Trek Staff.
The real world motivation is that in Star Trek I, they had a great
makeup budget and wanted to show some 'alien' aliens for a change.
Good enough!?!?!
Black Beard
Rich Kirchner
--------------518C7AA61750E5635DD2A92E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
May I point out, that(forgive my spelling) the quote is by Alexander
Roishenko.
Hunter wrote:
> > On 26 Jun 1997, Khalil Bey wrote:
> >
> > > Supposedly, the unoffical explanation (which dates back to the
> first
> > > appearance of klingons with ridges in the first movie) is that the
> ones
> > > with ridges are "southern klingons" while the others are "northern
>
> > > klingons" (and this is the best Gene was able to come up with)
> > >
> >
> "The higher, the fewer."
>
> ----Alexander Mogh
> From ST:TNG
--
Richard H. Kirchner
Homepage:
http://www.primenet.com/~kirchner/
--------------518C7AA61750E5635DD2A92E
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML>
May I point out, that(forgive my spelling) the quote is by Alexander <U>Roishenko</U>.
<P>Hunter wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>> On 26 Jun 1997, Khalil Bey wrote:
<BR>>
<BR>> > Supposedly, the unoffical explanation (which dates back to the
first
<BR>> > appearance of klingons with ridges in the first movie) is that
the ones
<BR>> > with ridges are "southern klingons" while the others are "northern
<BR>> > klingons" (and this is the best Gene was able to come up with)
<BR>> >
<BR>>
<BR>In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.97062...@fire.lsds.com>,
<BR>ta...@lsds.com says...
<BR>> Why does everyone have to read into these things too much?
The reason the
<BR>> Klingons have the forehead ridges is that the budget of the shows/movies
<BR>> makes that much make-up more feasable. The reason they brought
it up in
<BR>> the DS9 Tribble episode was as a point of humor, which I think they
<BR>> handled quite nicely.
<BR>>
<BR>> -----------------------------Tadd Barnes-----------------------------
<BR>> -"Han me Boogie..."
Ta...@lsds.com
"Haggis?"
<BR>> -Grandpa Jabba
Barn...@bigvax.alfred.edu
-Ramirez
<BR>>
<A HREF="http://www.lsds.com/tadd">http://www.lsds.com/tadd</A>
<BR>> -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>------
<P>Another kill-joy!! Listen, I got a little annoyed about the "Why Picard
<BR>speaks English" and the Why the Hell the man is bald?" controversies
<BR>because the answer is, IMHO, obvious, viz.: That he was educated that
way
<BR>and/or is a proud perfectionist who wants to get it right. and 2: He
<BR>wants to be. Two simple answers to mundane questions. However, I do
not
<BR>get worked up at what I regard as useless questions like the way you
do!
<BR>These Star Wars vs. Star Trek and B5 and the Head bone questions are
<BR>Garak-made questions for a Sci-Fi NG. This is our reason for being
here!
<BR>Lighten up! Ignore the thread!! Chill!!! Take a tranq!!!
<P>---Hunter Read the below:
<P>"The higher, the fewer."
<P>
----Alexander Mogh
<BR>
From ST:TNG</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>--
<BR>Richard H. Kirchner
<P>Homepage:
<BR><A HREF="http://www.primenet.com/~kirchner/">http://www.primenet.com/~kirchner/</A>
<BR>
<P> </HTML>
--------------518C7AA61750E5635DD2A92E--
Evan Currie
My theory is that all that head banging they do simply 'selected' for, a
la Darwin, the tougher foreheads... :)
Guy Lauriault
Actually there is a game and a book which explains the ridges somewhat..
The game is "Star Trek the role Playing game" (I believe is a TSR game)
which explain the theory and a book which is based on that same theory.
The book is "The final reflection" (I forget the author...) which is
in fact a Kingon novel...(very good book).
So the theory goes: the Imperial Klingons (with ridges) have a shorter
average lifespan than a human (i.e. they age more quickly, not that
they die of natural causes very often...) and Klingon scientists worked
on the problem and tried a genetic engenering solution by combining
humain DNA and Romulan DNA to the their own to create hybrid Klingons.
So two lower casts were created the Humain/hybrid and the Romulan/hybrid.
A form a racism was present, since only Imperial (pure guy's with ridges
first seen in Star Trek the motion picture) had access to higher positions
and generally, humain/hybrid were posted on Federation borders and
Romulan/hybrids were posted on Romulan borders. Also the types of Klingons
did not intermix (as noted in the book, so fewer and fewer hybrid
offsprings).
Note: the timeline of the game and book is pre-STNG soo the Klingons and
Romulans were alies.
Guy Lauriault
Henry Wolff <henry...@hatsoftnevada.lovelock.nv.us> wrote in article
<01bc82cf$a627d240$b11d...@hatsoftnevada.lovelock.nv.us>...
> Actually, I think I recall having read somewhere that I now can't recall
> where, that the ridgeless Klingons were 'The High Caste' and later
> overthrouwn and exterminated by the Kilngons with ridges. The ridgys,
being
> a 'lower' race would be ashamed to admit that they were once subjegated
by
> more docile Klingons - don't you think.
> Sounds like a fine theory to me, although the reality is the production
> budgets are light years bigger in the newer series.
> --
> Henry Wolff
> Star Trek Collectibles Trading Post
> Free4All Classifieds, Clipart, Animations, Sounds, Fonts, Pictures and
> more...
> http://www.greatbasin.net/~hatsoft/newtrek/index.html
>
> Ruediger Landmann <s30...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in article
> <5ov8l7$j3k$1...@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>...
Patrick
Maybe it has something to do with the Tribbles?
Patrick
pswe...@geocities.com
DJ wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 19:15:00 +0100, 'Droid <nm...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [SNIP!]
>
> >But this doesn't explain those who sprouted ridges in later life, eg:
> >Kang. According to the Fact Files (which I take as canon, Paramount
> >endorsed and produced), he is the same person in TOS and TNG time
> >periods. He first appeared as the young captain when an entity forced
> >his crew to fight Kirk's for sustenance. He finally died fighting the
> >Albino on a DS9 episode, having appeared in the STVI incident with Sulu.
> >The same applies to Kor and Koloth.
> >
> >'Droid
>
> Perhaps the Klingons did not see the humans as worthy opponents, os they created
> clones. These clones were made to look like humans, so humans would feel
> comfortable around them, and to keep their real identities a secret.
>
> Realizing this was dishonorable, the Klingons may have decided to dispose of the
> clones. However, the klingons such as Kang, Koloth, etc., that displayed all
> the qualities of a true klingon, may have been changed into a "true Klingon".
> -or-
> The Kang and others seen in TNG and DS9, were the originals Klingons that
> donated genetic material for the clones.
>
> There hundreds of explanations for "the change"
> see the group: alt.startrek.klingon
>
> There is always several huge, HUGE threads on the subject.
>
> -------------
>
> Ensign Palmer, D.J. - Multi-Species Physiology, U.S.S. Hawking
> and
> Ensign Dartang - Chief of Engineering, U.S.S. Hawking
> (E-Mail: dar...@flinet.com)
John D. Griffin
Try again.