call to arms fleet...

107 views
Skip to first unread message

KFreak8

unread,
Jun 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/30/97
to

ONE sovringe(sp?) class
TWO Galaxy class
TWO defiant class (one in fleet and the defiant)
thats all i got for now i have to watch it a few more times...

Mike Gasper

unread,
Jun 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/30/97
to

Sorry, no Sovereigns. What you saw was an Excelsior.

Christopher Reid

unread,
Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97
to

And there were two Defiants besides the USS Defiant herself.

Chris Reid
CRei...@aol.com

rs...@lehigh.edu

unread,
Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97
to

In article <19970630223...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, kfr...@aol.com (KFr
eak8) writes:
>ONE sovringe(sp?) class

[Grabs head and screams wildly]

There aint no stinkin Sovereign class! I have watched the freaking tape over
and over again, and there aint one there, people! Oh, sure, I've seen some
ships which on first appearance could have been a Sovereign, but on closer
examination they were either Excelsiors or refit Constitutions (or something
to that effect). So far, this whole Sovereign thing seems to have been one
person saying "Hey, I think I see one" and everyone else blindly going alone.

rick


KFreak8

unread,
Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97
to

well if you watch there IS one in the lower left corner
and THERE is another defiant in the mid right corner...


Doug Rodgers Vice-President and Co-Founder TREKKiE Productions

Grapeape

unread,
Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97
to
-There is a Sovereign class ship seen VERY briefly in the far right
corner when the whole fleet begins to move closer to the "camera". It
is not an excelsior because the warp engines have pointed front-ends
(sorry, forgot the tech term) glowing red, and the saucer has the ridge
pattern of the Sovereign design.

Bob Crosswell

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to rs...@lehigh.edu
To help prove your point someone has made an excellent page and posted
about a dozen jpegs of the fleet. look at
<http://homepage.enterprise.net/chowell/Great
Link/internment-camp371/inter-index.html>

bob

sy...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to
I'd love to take a look at this but this link is not working.

RT

David Stipes

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to

rs...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:

> There aint no stinkin Sovereign class! Oh, sure, I've seen some


> ships which on first appearance could have been a Sovereign, but on closer
> examination they were either Excelsiors or refit Constitutions (or something
> to that effect).

The ships were Excelsiors.

David Stipes, DS9 Visual Effects Supervisor "A Call To Arms"

McReynolds

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to dst...@earthlink.net

David Stipes wrote:
>
> The ships were Excelsiors.

Mr. Stipes-

I don't suppose it would be too much to ask for a breakdown of exactly
WAS there, so we can stop arguing about things that weren't, would it?
:-) Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I see:

A.) 2 Galaxy-class
B.) 2 Excelsior-class (non-refit)
C.) 3 Defiant-class (including the Defiant herself)
D.) at least 3 Miranda-class
E.) a lot of K't'inga-class and Vor'cha-class Klingon ships
F.) a lot of FIRST CONTACT ships, including Sabre-class and
Steamrunner-class, Akira-class and Norway-class possible
G.) a lot of Birds-of-Prey, presumably of B'Rel-class and K'Vort-class

I do not see:

a.) any Sovereign-class
b.) any Constitution-class (refit or otherwise)
c.) any Ambassador-class
d.) any Nebula-class
e.) any refit Excelsior-class
f.) any Oberth-class
g.) any Constellation-class

Am I correct? Is there anything I am forgetting? Actually, ANY
comments you can give regarding this matter are greatly appreciated.

-McReynolds

David Stipes

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to

McReynolds wrote:
>
> I don't suppose it would be too much to ask for a breakdown of exactly
> WAS there, so we can stop arguing about things that weren't, would it?
> :-) Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I see:
>
> A.) 2 Galaxy-class

Yes, 2 Enterprises (CGI)

> B.) 2 Excelsior-class (non-refit)

Yes, (the 3 foot model created for Voyager/Sulu episode)



> C.) 3 Defiant-class (including the Defiant herself)

Yes, (all CGI)

> D.) at least 3 Miranda-class

Yes, if Miranda = Reliants. (All model kits of Reliant) Not to
confuse
issue, there may be another Reliant in the distance. We shot several
groupings of Reliants. Some were dropped because of technical problems
and some ships were removed to make the shot less confusing.

> E.) a lot of K't'inga-class and Vor'cha-class Klingon ships

Maybe. I'm not sure what K't'inga is. There are a lot of old
style
Klingon D-7 Cruisers and Vor'chas. (D-7's are model kits and Vor'chs's
are the sound making toys.)

I hope I am not spoiling it for you. In these fleet/mob shots we use
every trick we can to pull off the shot. :)

> F.) a lot of FIRST CONTACT ships, including Sabre-class and
> Steamrunner-class, Akira-class and Norway-class possible

Yes to first three. (all CGI) I believe we removed the
Norway-class for
technical reasons.

> G.) a lot of Birds-of-Prey, presumably of B'Rel-class and K'Vort-class

Yes, but not several classes. They are all the same BOP as we
have
always seen. (All CGI) If it matters, we did scale Martok's BOP up in
size to appear more equal with the Defiant. That may give an impression
of another class. Just artistic license. (Please forgive me. <G>)

Martok's BOP at the beginning has his wings in attack mode to
distinguish him from all the other BOP which have wings in cruise mode.

That's it. We had a limited assortment of ships to work with. I'm sorry
to say there is NO Enterprise 1701 from TOS or Enterprise E. We just
didn't think of them.

David Stipes, Visual effects Supervisor "A Call To Arms"

Aaron Morse

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to rmc...@pop.flash.net

>
> A.) 2 Galaxy-class
> B.) 2 Excelsior-class (non-refit)
> C.) 3 Defiant-class (including the Defiant herself)
> D.) at least 3 Miranda-class
> E.) a lot of K't'inga-class and Vor'cha-class Klingon ships
> F.) a lot of FIRST CONTACT ships, including Sabre-class and
> Steamrunner-class, Akira-class and Norway-class possible
> G.) a lot of Birds-of-Prey, presumably of B'Rel-class and K'Vort-class
>
> I do not see:
>
> a.) any Sovereign-class
> b.) any Constitution-class (refit or otherwise)
> c.) any Ambassador-class
> d.) any Nebula-class
> e.) any refit Excelsior-class
> f.) any Oberth-class
> g.) any Constellation-class
>
> Am I correct? Is there anything I am forgetting? Actually, ANY
> comments you can give regarding this matter are greatly appreciated.
>
> -McReynolds


that's what I saw...but I also saw a couple that didn't look to familiar
one in the middle of the screen kinda looked like a
constitution-sovereign hybrid with no connecting dorsal thingy and a
rectangular ship with warp nacelles on the sides down on the bottom
right, which kinda reminded me of those Vulcan ships in ST:TNG
Unification.

Aaron

Jason A. A.

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

On Thu, 03 Jul 1997 16:28:22 -0500, McReynolds <rmc...@pop.flash.net>
wrote:


>

>b.) any Constitution-class (refit or otherwise)

>f.) any Oberth-class
>g.) any Constellation-class

Hopefully all those things have been decommisioned by now.


____________________
Jason Andrew Atkinson
=====================
Ash nazg durbatuluk,
ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatuluk
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!
\\\\\\\ LOTR- JRRT.
+++++++++++++++++++++
For e-mail, please remove ANTISPAM


McReynolds

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

David Stipes wrote:
>
> Yes, if Miranda = Reliants. (All model kits of Reliant) Not to
> confuse
> issue, there may be another Reliant in the distance. We shot several
> groupings of Reliants. Some were dropped because of technical problems
> and some ships were removed to make the shot less confusing.

Yeah, Reliant was a Miranda-class ship.

> Maybe. I'm not sure what K't'inga is. There are a lot of old
> style
> Klingon D-7 Cruisers and Vor'chas. (D-7's are model kits and Vor'chs's
> are the sound making toys.)

The K't'ingas were the "updated" D-7s we first saw way back in Star
Trek: The Motion Picture, so, basically, a D-7 from far away could be a
K't'inga, but there are differences up close. I never would have
guessed that those Vor'chas were toys. Suppose I'd better give
Playmates a little more credit! :-)

>
> > F.) a lot of FIRST CONTACT ships, including Sabre-class and
> > Steamrunner-class, Akira-class and Norway-class possible
>

> Yes to first three. (all CGI) I believe we removed the
> Norway-class for
> technical reasons.

I didn't think I saw any Norways... they're my least favorite of the new
ships, anyway!



> > G.) a lot of Birds-of-Prey, presumably of B'Rel-class and K'Vort-class
>

> Yes, but not several classes. They are all the same BOP as we
> have
> always seen. (All CGI) If it matters, we did scale Martok's BOP up in
> size to appear more equal with the Defiant. That may give an impression
> of another class. Just artistic license. (Please forgive me. <G>)

Well, we've "always seen" two different types of BOP. There were the
really tiny 12-man B'Rel scouts and the relatively large K'Vort
cruisers. Perhaps if Martok's BOP was larger than the rest, it was a
K'Vort and the others were B'Rels...

-McReynolds

McReynolds

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

Aaron Morse wrote:
>
> that's what I saw...but I also saw a couple that didn't look to familiar
> one in the middle of the screen kinda looked like a
> constitution-sovereign hybrid with no connecting dorsal thingy and a
> rectangular ship with warp nacelles on the sides down on the bottom
> right, which kinda reminded me of those Vulcan ships in ST:TNG
> Unification.

Those are one of the First Contact ship designs, but I can't recall
which...

-McReynolds

Brian Barjenbruch

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

> Those are one of the First Contact ship designs, but I can't recall
> which...

I've watched First Contact's LD a few times and I can give some info:

Akira class:
WAY cool. The saucer has a 'catamaran' double hull on top of it.
This extends backward for a few meters, then a rollbar is across that.
The rollbar has a torpedo launcher in the middle; it extends down and to
the sides where it becomes the nacelle support pylons. Deflector dish is
directly underneath the saucer. An Akira-class ship is clearly seen in
one scene in FC, turning to the left, firing torpedoes. You can even see
its registry number: NCC-63646. Another Akira (or maybe the same one)
flies across the screen after the Borg cube explodes.


Saber class:
Just a saucer with two nacelles, one on each side. Secondary hull
sticks out the middle. A <tiny> equipment module, sort of Nebula-ish, on
top. Viewed from the top, the whole thing looks like a big E. After the
Enterprise-E arrives to rescue the Defiant, a <LOT> of Sabers are
visible. In fact, the Saber is probably the most-used ship in the whole
of the FC battle.

OOOOO------
OOOOOOO
OOOOO<<===
OOOOOOO
OOOOO------


Steamrunner class:
The saucer has a raised 'bump' on top of it. Smallish engineering
section in back; the nacelles are attached to this, the pylons extending
outward and down. After Picard orders the fleet to fire, there's a shot
of a few ships firing (Nebula, Norway, and Sovereign, from top left to
lower right). Then there's a shot of the cube; the Enterprise swoops in
and fires, and a Steamrunner follows up behind.

------
OOOOO || <--- note: these pylons are angled outward & down slightly
OOOOOOO#####
OOOOOOO#####
OOOOOOO#####
OOOOO ||
------


Norway class:
Curious. The saucer has impulse engines on the <sides>. Nacelles
are attached to the back of the saucer. Pylons are, in turn, attached to
the back of the nacelles; these pylons extend inward and down, where they
attach to the deflector dish.

OO#OO----\
OOOOOOO \
OOOOOOO OOO
OOOOOOO /
OO#OO----/

Brian
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I ain't gonna need this house no longer
Ain't gonna need this house no more
Ain't got time to fix the shingles
Ain't got time to fix the floor
Ain't got time to oil the hinges
Nor to mend the window pane
Ain't gonna need this house no longer
I'm gettin' ready to meet the saints

-- The Statler Brothers
---------------------------------------------------------------------

David Stipes

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to rmc...@pop.flash.net

McReynolds wrote:

> Yeah, Reliant was a Miranda-class ship.
>
> > Maybe. I'm not sure what K't'inga is. There are a lot of old
> > style Klingon D-7 Cruisers and Vor'chas.

> The K't'ingas were the "updated" D-7s we first saw way back in Star


> Trek: The Motion Picture, so, basically, a D-7 from far away could be a
> K't'inga, but there are differences up close.
>

> > > G.) a lot of Birds-of-Prey, presumably of B'Rel-class and K'Vort-class
> >
> >

> Well, we've "always seen" two different types of BOP. There were the
> really tiny 12-man B'Rel scouts and the relatively large K'Vort
> cruisers. Perhaps if Martok's BOP was larger than the rest, it was a
> K'Vort and the others were B'Rels...

Hello!

I stand corrected. I've been on the shows for five years...I still don't
know all this detail. <sigh>

Yes, by your definitions, the Klingon ships are the K't'ingas. They are
detailed like the feature ships.

Re: Bird of Prey...I Thought there was only the one size.

Live and learn :)

David

gall...@interlynx.net

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

In article <19970630223...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,

kfr...@aol.com (KFreak8) wrote:
>
> ONE sovringe(sp?) class
> TWO Galaxy class
> TWO defiant class (one in fleet and the defiant)
> thats all i got for now i have to watch it a few more times...

I saw the episode twice and did not see any sovereign-class ships. Star
Trek: First Contact takes place in 2373 and in that time the Enterprise-E
is the only ship of that class. DS9 is in 2374 or 75 so they can't have
more than three by that time. And if there *was* a sovereign-class
starship, it would be the most noticable since it is the largest ship in
the fleet (almost 700 meters excluding the nacelles)

Also, excelsior-class ships look very similar to sovereign-class ones.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

McReynolds

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to dst...@earthlink.net

David Stipes wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I stand corrected. I've been on the shows for five years...I still don't
> know all this detail. <sigh>
>
> Yes, by your definitions, the Klingon ships are the K't'ingas. They are
> detailed like the feature ships.
>
> Re: Bird of Prey...I Thought there was only the one size.
>
> Live and learn :)

Its at times like these that I'm thankful for a photographic memory and
the time I took to read the entire Star Trek Encyclopedia on a rainy
afternoon last year. Plus, I've seen every episode of TOS, TNG, and
DS9, and most of Voyager, so I can generally tell what's been used
before.

Oh, and I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, but great job all
around!

-McReynolds

Steve Pugh

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

McReynolds wrote:

>David Stipes wrote:
>
>> Maybe. I'm not sure what K't'inga is. There are a lot of old
>> style Klingon D-7 Cruisers and Vor'chas. (D-7's are model kits
>> and Vor'chs's are the sound making toys.)
>
>The K't'ingas were the "updated" D-7s we first saw way back in Star
>Trek: The Motion Picture, so, basically, a D-7 from far away could be a
>K't'inga, but there are differences up close.

D7, K't'inga, there both the same really aren't they? How do we know
that the less detailed D7s seen in TOS weren't also called K't'inga?
And is the K't'inga a late model D7 (ie FASA's D7M) or a replacement
class (Treknical fandom's D8) or just a D7 seen with better sensors?

It does raise the question, if K't'ingas, B'rel and Mirandas are all
still serving, why not Constitutions?



>> > G.) a lot of Birds-of-Prey, presumably of B'Rel-class and K'Vort-class
>>

>> Yes, but not several classes. They are all the same BOP as we
>> have always seen. (All CGI) If it matters, we did scale Martok's BOP up in
>> size to appear more equal with the Defiant. That may give an impression
>> of another class. Just artistic license. (Please forgive me. <G>)
>

>Well, we've "always seen" two different types of BOP. There were the
>really tiny 12-man B'Rel scouts and the relatively large K'Vort
>cruisers. Perhaps if Martok's BOP was larger than the rest, it was a
>K'Vort and the others were B'Rels...

Yes, but they were both the same model, so from a production point of
view there has only ever been one BoP.

I do find it worrying that they scaled Martok's up to make it
comparable with the Defiant. A K'vort should be a lot bigger than the
Defiant shouldn't it? And the B'rel smaller, but looking about the
same as the Defiant's a more compact design when compared to the
winged BoP.

Cheers,
Steve


Stephen Richard Pugh http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/ax16

"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

McReynolds

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

Steve Pugh wrote:
>
> D7, K't'inga, there both the same really aren't they? How do we know
> that the less detailed D7s seen in TOS weren't also called K't'inga?
> And is the K't'inga a late model D7 (ie FASA's D7M) or a replacement
> class (Treknical fandom's D8) or just a D7 seen with better sensors?

I really wonder about this one. I mean, the D-7s had a sensor/deflector
assembly where the K't'ingas have a photon torpedo launcher. There are
some MAJOR differences between them, almost enough to make it a new
class. I know that, going by the somewhat revisionist Okuda scenario,
the K't'inga is a separate class from the D-7s we see. Overall, I'd go
with (ugh!) FASA on this one. It's not different enough in my book to
warrant a completely new number on the "D" scale. Since I know you're a
follower of "tech fandom" like me, you'll understand the following
comparison: the K't'inga is to the D-7 design what the Akula is to the
Akyazi design. That is to say, a slightly different and more advanced
design based on the same basic hull and systems. At least, that's my
take on the issue.

> It does raise the question, if K't'ingas, B'rel and Mirandas are all
> still serving, why not Constitutions?

And that is a damn good question; one we'll probably never get answered.

> Yes, but they were both the same model, so from a production point of
> view there has only ever been one BoP.

True.



> I do find it worrying that they scaled Martok's up to make it
> comparable with the Defiant. A K'vort should be a lot bigger than the
> Defiant shouldn't it? And the B'rel smaller, but looking about the
> same as the Defiant's a more compact design when compared to the
> winged BoP.

I would guess (note: these are just my estimates) that a K'Vort is on
the order of 200-250 meters long, so it's not TOO much bigger than the
Defiant. B'Rels, on the other hand, look like gnats compared to the
majority of other vessels, only being what, 80 meters long? Perhaps
there are a number of BOP sizes, all of different classes. Martok's
ship might be a "K'rin-class" Bird-of-Prey or something like that.

-McReynolds

P.S. Please, nobody quote me as saying K'Rin-class. I just made that
name up off the top of my head to illustrate a point. I don't want to
give anybody some mistaken ideas about that ship! :-)

Dave McDougall

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

In article <8680248...@dejanews.com>, gall...@interlynx.net writes

>I saw the episode twice and did not see any sovereign-class ships. Star
>Trek: First Contact takes place in 2373 and in that time the Enterprise-E
>is the only ship of that class. DS9 is in 2374 or 75 so they can't have
>more than three by that time. And if there *was* a sovereign-class
>starship, it would be the most noticable since it is the largest ship in
>the fleet (almost 700 meters excluding the nacelles)
>
>Also, excelsior-class ships look very similar to sovereign-class ones.

How can the Enterprise E be the first in the class? Surely that should
be the USS Sovereign?

Dave
--

"Knowing the lions' preference for red meat, the
spamalopes remained calm but wary."

Dave McDougall

Dave McDougall

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

In article <33BB99...@lmtas.lmco.com>, Bob Crosswell
<cross...@lmtas.lmco.com> writes

> rick
>To help prove your point someone has made an excellent page and posted
>about a dozen jpegs of the fleet. look at
><http://homepage.enterprise.net/chowell/Great
>Link/internment-camp371/inter-index.html>
>
>bob
Sorry, are you sure this address is correct? I get a DNS lookup failure
for "homepage.enterprise.net".

rs...@lehigh.edu

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

In article <0G8$0HAUFT...@netgen.demon.co.uk>, Dave McDougall <da...@netgen.de

mon.co.uk> writes:
>In article <8680248...@dejanews.com>, gall...@interlynx.net writes
>>I saw the episode twice and did not see any sovereign-class ships. Star
>>Trek: First Contact takes place in 2373 and in that time the Enterprise-E
>>is the only ship of that class. DS9 is in 2374 or 75 so they can't have
>>more than three by that time. And if there *was* a sovereign-class
>>starship, it would be the most noticable since it is the largest ship in
>>the fleet (almost 700 meters excluding the nacelles)
>>
>>Also, excelsior-class ships look very similar to sovereign-class ones.
>
>How can the Enterprise E be the first in the class? Surely that should
>be the USS Sovereign?
>
>Dave
>

Perhaps at the time the Big-E was the only one to finish construction, ahead
of the planned Sovereign?

rick


Brian Barjenbruch

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

In article <8680248...@dejanews.com>, gall...@interlynx.net wrote:
> I saw the episode twice and did not see any sovereign-class ships. Star
> Trek: First Contact takes place in 2373 and in that time the Enterprise-E
> is the only ship of that class

Impossible. There is a USS Sovereign, which is a <different ship> than
the Enterprise-E. There cannot be a Sovereign-class without a Sovereign
to name the class after.

Besides, if the Enterprise-E had been the first ship of its class (in
which case the class name would be Enterprise class, which we know it's
not), the dedication plaque would say "First starship of her class." The
Ent-E's plaque does not say this. It simply says, 'Sixth starship to bear
the name.'

Brian Barjenbruch

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

> Perhaps at the time the Big-E was the only one to finish construction, ahead
> of the planned Sovereign?

Not possible. Whichever ship is built and completed first, that's the
class name. If the Enterprise-E had been built first, the class would be
Enterprise class. The class name is Sovereign class, ergo the first ship
is the USS Sovereign. It's that simple. (Besides, without a USS
Sovereign in service, the existence of the term "Sovereign class" becomes
meaningless.)

mcooney

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

David Stipes wrote:
>
> McReynolds wrote:
>
> > Yeah, Reliant was a Miranda-class ship.
> >
> > > Maybe. I'm not sure what K't'inga is. There are a lot of old
> > > style Klingon D-7 Cruisers and Vor'chas.
>
> > The K't'ingas were the "updated" D-7s we first saw way back in Star
> > Trek: The Motion Picture, so, basically, a D-7 from far away could be a
> > K't'inga, but there are differences up close.
> >
> > > > G.) a lot of Birds-of-Prey, presumably of B'Rel-class and K'Vort-class
> > >
> > >
> > Well, we've "always seen" two different types of BOP. There were the
> > really tiny 12-man B'Rel scouts and the relatively large K'Vort
> > cruisers. Perhaps if Martok's BOP was larger than the rest, it was a
> > K'Vort and the others were B'Rels...
>
> Hello!
>
> I stand corrected. I've been on the shows for five years...I still don't
> know all this detail. <sigh>
>
> Yes, by your definitions, the Klingon ships are the K't'ingas. They are
> detailed like the feature ships.
>
> Re: Bird of Prey...I Thought there was only the one size.
>
> Live and learn :)
>
> David


David Stipes. Lucky you were around for this. In the Lightwave group
i was asking someone from D2 about something i see on the trek shows
alot and don't understand why it can't be fixed.

When models are used on the trek shows, a LOT of times, and this aint
just interlacing problems, there is a tendency for the ships to have a
jaggedy or alaised image. I thought this was because the EFX are only
done at video resolution, in films, models are composited at such high
fidelity you never get alaising. But i read that the mattes or masks
are actualy seperatly filmed 35mm elements using flourescent colored
screens, and the ships are shot seperatly against black. The ships
should have, especialy against just stars, smooth edges.

rs...@lehigh.edu

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

In article <brianbarge-04...@248.omaha-001.ne.dial-access.att.net>, b

rian...@worldnet.att.net (Brian Barjenbruch) writes:
>> Perhaps at the time the Big-E was the only one to finish construction, ahead
>> of the planned Sovereign?
>
>Not possible. Whichever ship is built and completed first, that's the
>class name. If the Enterprise-E had been built first, the class would be
>Enterprise class.


In the Technical Manual, wasn't the Yamato the first Galaxy class to be put to
space, ahead of the Galaxy? If so, that kinda invalidates your point? Please
help, since I seem to be missing my copy of it.

rick


Brian Barjenbruch

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

> In the Technical Manual, wasn't the Yamato the first Galaxy class to be put to
> space, ahead of the Galaxy? If so, that kinda invalidates your point? Please
> help, since I seem to be missing my copy of it.

The Galaxy was the prototype vessel; it was built first. The Yamato was
the next off the line (the first one that was not a prototype), and the
Enterprise-D came third.

Mark Nguyen

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

Brian Barjenbruch wrote:

[snip!]

A good analysis, but I believe that you've mixed up the Steamrunner and
Norway classes. David Stipes mentioned that there aren't any Norways in
"A Call to Arms", but there were ZILLIONS of what you call Norways in
that shot.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
MARK NGUYEN Vice President (External) ngu...@arc.ab.ca
Banzai Anime Klub of Alberta (BAKA), University of Alberta
Co-creator of the CANADIAN ANIME CLUB INDEX
http://nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca/~ross/Canime
Edmonton's Premier Anime festival ANIMETHON 4 is coming!
http://www.ualberta.ca/~dross/a4/ (JULY 12-13)
----------------------------------------------------------

Jason A. A.

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

On Fri, 04 Jul 1997 11:34:29 -0500, McReynolds <rmc...@pop.flash.net>
wrote:


>> It does raise the question, if K't'ingas, B'rel and Mirandas are all
>> still serving, why not Constitutions?
>
>And that is a damn good question; one we'll probably never get answered.
>

Probably because the Federation, unlike the Klingons and the Russians
and with the exception of the Miranda, have the sense to not use
terribly obselete designs.

David Stipes

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to mcooney

> When models are used on the trek shows, a LOT of times, and this aint
> just interlacing problems, there is a tendency for the ships to have a
> jaggedy or alaised image. I thought this was because the EFX are only
> done at video resolution, in films, models are composited at such high
> fidelity you never get alaising. But i read that the mattes or masks
> are actualy seperatly filmed 35mm elements using flourescent colored
> screens, and the ships are shot seperatly against black. The ships
> should have, especialy against just stars, smooth edges.

Hmmmm. I am not sure I know what you are seeing.

To start, you are correct, we shoot models with separate passes for
lights, beauty pass, and mattes. We do not usually have "alias"
problems. A few times I have seen long linear shapes "dance" or alias
when they cross the TV raster lines at shallow angles, i.e. dropping
down the frame while nearly horizontal.

I have seen the same with CGI shots as well. The CGI shots are often
highly anti-aliased and we still have raster dance problems.

It does not have anything to do with how often they are used. The source
material is in Digital D1 format.

I hope that helps (??!!??)

David

We have had pro

David Stipes

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

> D7, K't'inga, there both the same really aren't they? How do we know
> that the less detailed D7s seen in TOS weren't also called K't'inga?
> And is the K't'inga a late model D7 (ie FASA's D7M) or a replacement
> class (Treknical fandom's D8) or just a D7 seen with better sensors?
>
> It does raise the question, if K't'ingas, B'rel and Mirandas are all
> still serving, why not Constitutions?

> >


> >Well, we've "always seen" two different types of BOP. There were the
> >really tiny 12-man B'Rel scouts and the relatively large K'Vort
> >cruisers. Perhaps if Martok's BOP was larger than the rest, it was a
> >K'Vort and the others were B'Rels...
>

> Yes, but they were both the same model, so from a production point of
> view there has only ever been one BoP.
>

> I do find it worrying that they scaled Martok's up to make it
> comparable with the Defiant. A K'vort should be a lot bigger than the
> Defiant shouldn't it? And the B'rel smaller, but looking about the
> same as the Defiant's a more compact design when compared to the
> winged BoP.


Guys,

AAAARRRGHHHHHH!

Whew, now I feel better!

We have charts that we work from that picture the various ships in scale
with each other and gives their lengths in feet. That is the source of
my comment that I only knew of one Bird Of Prey. Our chart lists it at
360ft long. It was a bit wimpy next to the Defiant (@ 560ft) so we
scaled it up a little.....I didn't know about other sizes or classes of
BOP. (HONEST)


David Stipes DS9

Christopher Reid

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

gall...@interlynx.net wrote:
>
> I saw the episode twice and did not see any sovereign-class ships.
> Star Trek: First Contact takes place in 2373 and in that time the
> Enterprise-E is the only ship of that class. DS9 is in 2374 or 75 so
> they can't have more than three by that time. And if there *was* a
> sovereign-class starship, it would be the most noticable since it is
> the largest ship in the fleet (almost 700 meters excluding the
> nacelles)

As others have stated about multiple Sovereigns, your date is also
incorrect. The DS9 Finale episode takes place roughly a month or two
after the time STFC is suppose to take place. Both are late 2373.

Chris Reid
CRei...@aol.com

Visit http://www.ace-1.com NOW! (tell 'em Chris sent ya)

Chris Reid ~ 23rd Member of ace's Happy Club, ace's Happy Magic Staff
Chief Executive in charge of butter, the elderly, natural resources up
to and including purple rocks and the big kind of dinosaurs....

Steve Pugh

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

McReynolds wrote:

>Steve Pugh wrote:
>>
>> D7, K't'inga, there both the same really aren't they? How do we know
>> that the less detailed D7s seen in TOS weren't also called K't'inga?
>> And is the K't'inga a late model D7 (ie FASA's D7M) or a replacement
>> class (Treknical fandom's D8) or just a D7 seen with better sensors?
>
>I really wonder about this one. I mean, the D-7s had a sensor/deflector
>assembly where the K't'ingas have a photon torpedo launcher. There are
>some MAJOR differences between them, almost enough to make it a new
>class. I know that, going by the somewhat revisionist Okuda scenario,
>the K't'inga is a separate class from the D-7s we see. Overall, I'd go
>with (ugh!) FASA on this one. It's not different enough in my book to
>warrant a completely new number on the "D" scale.

We don't really know what the D scale is do we? Was it just a
starfleet code used when they didn't know the Klingon designation?
(Similarly to NATO designations for soviet equipment)
Or was it the Klingon designation? If so what did it apply to? The
only other evidence we have is the BoP in Generations being an old
D12. (BTW, the one on Generations was cruiser sized wasn't it? It's
soemtimes hard to tell, the BoP seems to rather elastic, even allowing
for the two classes.)

So does D apply to all cruisers? With the TOS ones being D7, the
K't'ingas being D8 the K'vort BoPs being (say) D10 to D15 and the
Vor'chas being D16?

Or does each class have a supplementary D rating. So the D7 is the
mark 7 version of that cruiser design? So D12 was merely the 12th
version of the K'vort size of BoP.

We just can't tell. So for now we'll have to stick to using D7 for the
TOS one and K't'inga for the movie/TNG one.

>Since I know you're a
>follower of "tech fandom" like me, you'll understand the following
>comparison: the K't'inga is to the D-7 design what the Akula is to the
>Akyazi design. That is to say, a slightly different and more advanced
>design based on the same basic hull and systems. At least, that's my
>take on the issue.

I've never actually seen the Akyazi stuff but I think I know what you
mean. It's the class and sub-class designation I used with Miranda and
Avenger a while back. But we simply don't which of D7 and K't'inga is
class and which is sub-class.

Tech fandom used to define all but the very smallest of alterations as
a new class, at least this is soemthing that Okuda's revisions have
done away with. So now we have Constitution class, but Constitution,
Bonhomme Richard, Achenar, Enterprise, Constitution II, Endeavour,
Enterprise II and Tikopai sub-classes (did I miss any?)

;-)

[snippity, snip]

>I would guess (note: these are just my estimates) that a K'Vort is on
>the order of 200-250 meters long, so it's not TOO much bigger than the
>Defiant. B'Rels, on the other hand, look like gnats compared to the
>majority of other vessels, only being what, 80 meters long? Perhaps
>there are a number of BOP sizes, all of different classes. Martok's
>ship might be a "K'rin-class" Bird-of-Prey or something like that.
>
>-McReynolds
>
>P.S. Please, nobody quote me as saying K'Rin-class. I just made that
>name up off the top of my head to illustrate a point. I don't want to
>give anybody some mistaken ideas about that ship! :-)

On this newsgroup?

;-)

Cheers,
Steve


--

Brian Barjenbruch

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

So you are saying that it is the <Steamrunner> class which looks like this:

OO#OO=====\ (we see one of these ships spinning out of control
OOOOOOO \ with half its saucer section blown off when the
OOOOOOO OOO fleet first starts firing and the Borg cube is
OOOOOOO / shown onscreen. The #'s are the impulse engines)
OO#OO=====/

And the Norway which looks like this:

======
OOOOO || (in that very same scene I just mentioned above,
OOOOOOO##### one of <these> ships follows directly behind the
OOOOOOO##### Enterprise in firing on the Borg cube. It's also
OOOOOOO##### got a raised bump on the saucer)
OOOOO ||
======


Hmmm. I suppose we can only hope for official word on this from David
Stipes (hello David, are you listening?) or somebody from ILM.

Cmdr. Teihl Armstree

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

rs...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:
>
> In article <brianbarge-04...@248.omaha-001.ne.dial-access.att.net>, b
> rian...@worldnet.att.net (Brian Barjenbruch) writes:
> >> Perhaps at the time the Big-E was the only one to finish construction, ahead
> >> of the planned Sovereign?
> >
> >Not possible. Whichever ship is built and completed first, that's the
> >class name. If the Enterprise-E had been built first, the class would be
> >Enterprise class.
>
> In the Technical Manual, wasn't the Yamato the first Galaxy class to be put to
> space, ahead of the Galaxy? If so, that kinda invalidates your point? Please
> help, since I seem to be missing my copy of it.
>
> rick

No Baby.. The Galaxy was the first constructed and the first that hit
space.

Incidentally naming protocols are the First ship of the class... not
when it hit space first. It is possible to have the Yamato out roaming
the stars before Galaxy was complete because of manufacturing problems
and things unique to each starship no matter its class. THis however did
not happen incidentally with USS Galaxy, and I for one hope that next
season, in Call To Arms part-2, we actually get to see that one of those
two Galaxy class starships is the prototype model, USS Galaxy :)

Cmdr. Teihl Armstree

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

Teihl

McReynolds

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

David Stipes wrote:
>
> We have charts that we work from that picture the various ships in scale
> with each other and gives their lengths in feet. That is the source of
> my comment that I only knew of one Bird Of Prey. Our chart lists it at
> 360ft long. It was a bit wimpy next to the Defiant (@ 560ft) so we
> scaled it up a little.....I didn't know about other sizes or classes of
> BOP. (HONEST)

Would you mind posting this chart here? If you don't want to do the
whole thing, I'm interested particularly in the size of the Negh'Var
super-Klignon flagship. No one has been able to accurately pin that one
down, and I'd like to get the "official" word on it. Other ships that
many people can't figure out size for include the Galor-class Cardassian
ships, all of those First Contact ships (Akira, Sabre, etc.), and the
Vor'cha-class Klignon attack cruiser.

Of course, if you could just give us the WHOLE thing, it would be even
more greatly appreciated... ;-) I for one am an information-hungry
person, and I like to get my had on ANYTHING I can concerning Star Trek
ships. :-)

-McReynolds

McReynolds

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to

Steve Pugh wrote:
>
> I've never actually seen the Akyazi stuff but I think I know what you
> mean. It's the class and sub-class designation I used with Miranda and
> Avenger a while back. But we simply don't which of D7 and K't'inga is
> class and which is sub-class.

That's exactly it. The basic Akyazi design included the Arbiter- and
Akula-subclasses. I was lucky to catch a rare copy of "Ships of the
Star Fleet Volume II" at the nearest SuperCrown bookstore the other day,
otherwise, I wouldn't have seen it either!

If I had to pin down the D-7/K't'inga issue, I'd say that D-7 was the
class, since it apparently came first. We can't be sure, but that's
what the shows seem to say.

> Tech fandom used to define all but the very smallest of alterations as
> a new class, at least this is soemthing that Okuda's revisions have
> done away with. So now we have Constitution class, but Constitution,
> Bonhomme Richard, Achenar, Enterprise, Constitution II, Endeavour,
> Enterprise II and Tikopai sub-classes (did I miss any?)

Uhh... <checks "Ships of the Star Fleet I"> nope! ;-) In some ways this
makes a lot of sense; after all, there are ships in today's navies with
MUCH more drastic changes that don't get separate classes.

-McReynolds

David Stipes

unread,
Jul 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/5/97
to Smo...@bbs.pid.net

Smo...@BBS.pid.net wrote:
>
> > Guys,
> >
> > AAAARRRGHHHHHH!
> >
> > Whew, now I feel better!
> >
> > We have charts that we work from that picture the various ships in > > scale with each other and gives their lengths in feet. That is the > > source of my comment that I only knew of one Bird Of Prey. Our chart > > lists it at 360ft long. It was a bit wimpy next to the Defiant (@
> > 560ft) so we scaled it up a little.....I didn't know about other > > sizes or classes of BOP. (HONEST)
> >
> > David Stipes DS9
>
> David, dont like this stuff get to you. These guys will nitpick you to
> death. They sometimes forget that production budgets force certain
> compromises. It would be nice to have the money (and time) to be able > to create several different BOP's, but it's just not possible in the
> REAL world.

Dear friends,

I should have included a big <G> after my AAAAARRGGGHHH!

I have great fun chatting with you! I was suprised (not upset) with the
responses I received from my innocent, if ignorant, comment about one
size of Bird Of Prey.

Please, continue to keep involved, keep Star Trek crews honest
and...keep us on our toes.

Hmmmmm, after meeting all you good people in the news groups, I may need
reinforced toes for my shoes from now on! <Grin> ;)

Keep up the good work and the good fun!

David Stipes, DS9 Visual Effects

Shaun Turner

unread,
Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to

On 4 Jul 1997 21:23:16 -0400, rs...@Lehigh.EDU informed all that:

>In article <brianbarge-04...@248.omaha-001.ne.dial-access.att.net>, b
>rian...@worldnet.att.net (Brian Barjenbruch) writes:
>>> Perhaps at the time the Big-E was the only one to finish construction, ahead
>>> of the planned Sovereign?
>>
>>Not possible. Whichever ship is built and completed first, that's the
>>class name. If the Enterprise-E had been built first, the class would be
>>Enterprise class.
>
>
>In the Technical Manual, wasn't the Yamato the first Galaxy class to be put to
>space, ahead of the Galaxy? If so, that kinda invalidates your point? Please
>help, since I seem to be missing my copy of it.
>
> rick
>

I thought it was something like that. E-D is/was the 3rd Galaxy produced.

May we all live long, have many children, And die smiling.
Visit my site. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~sajt
-----------------------------------------------
Star Trek & Babylon 5 Air Schedule (Australia)
-----------------------------------------------
Wether/Music/links & More

Alex Rosenzweig

unread,
Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to

David Stipes wrote:
>
> AAAARRRGHHHHHH!
>
> Whew, now I feel better!
>
> We have charts that we work from that picture the various ships in
> scale
> with each other and gives their lengths in feet. That is the source of
> my comment that I only knew of one Bird Of Prey. Our chart lists it at
> 360ft long. It was a bit wimpy next to the Defiant (@ 560ft) so we
> scaled it up a little.....I didn't know about other sizes or classes
> of BOP. (HONEST)
>
> David Stipes DS9

FWIW, the primary source of semi-canonical info about Birds of Prey is
the ST Encyclopedia, which referred to the K'vort-class as a larger
version of the Bird of Prey, and the B'rel as a smaller version.

This is actually logical, as the older B'rels are said to have crews of
12 persons, while we've seen newer BOPs in TNG and DS9 (e.g., the Pagh
and the Rotaren (sp.?) with considerably larger crews.

Of course, the Encyclopedia promptly gets confused by labeling the one
Bird of Prey shown in the comparison chart as both B'rel and K'vort.

<Sigh...>

The TOS-era Klingon battlecruiser, BTW, was referred to as the
Klolode-class at one point, I believe in TAS. Also, Gene Roddenberry's
novelization of TMP referred to the K't'inga-class as a new version of
the battlecruiser design.

Hope this helps!

Best,
Alex

ADM Alex Rosenzweig
Commanding Officer, FH 1860 Avenger
Director, Department of Technical Services
Director, Office of Technical Information
Starfleet
D...@sfi.org or al...@castle.net

PS: Did you enjoy seeing Hikaru Sulu in the command chair in STVI:The
Undiscovered Country? Did you enjoy seeing him in the Voyager episode
"Flashback"? Is that still not enough? Want more, like me? If so, write
Paramount! Join the call for a "Star Trek: Excelsior" series,
mini-series, TV movie series, or novel or comic series. If enough of us
call for it, Paramount might do it!

Aaron Morse

unread,
Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to dst...@earthlink.net

We have charts that we work from that picture the various ships in
scale with each other and gives their lengths in feet. That is the
source of my comment that I only knew of one Bird Of Prey. Our chart
lists it at 360ft long. It was a bit wimpy next to the Defiant
560ft) so we scaled it up a little.....I didn't know about other
sizes or classes of BOP. (HONEST)

I have great fun chatting with you! I was suprised (not upset) with


the responses I received from my innocent, if ignorant, comment about
one size of Bird Of Prey.
Please, continue to keep involved, keep Star Trek crews honest
and...keep us on our toes.
Hmmmmm, after meeting all you good people in the news groups, I may need
reinforced toes for my shoes from now on! <Grin> ;)
Keep up the good work and the good fun!
>
> David Stipes, DS9 Visual Effects

Hi there! I hope you don't mind us all buggin' you...but you mentionned
a chart with sizes and all that for all the different ships on DS9, I
don't suppose you'd mind putting a copy on the newsgroup for us to argue
about!

Aaron

mor...@nbnet.nb.ca

mcooney

unread,
Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to

What about the 24 frames per second problem. I have ALWAYS been
interested in how the trek EFX guys solve this problem.

When film is transferred to video there is this deal with some frames
using more fields than others to speed it up to 24 frames per second.
Fine for live action. But if someone has to composite CGI, models, and
live action, tens of elements, HOW is that 3:2 pulldown stutter aligned
so you don't have an element moving in one frame when the other's arnt.

Timo S Saloniemi

unread,
Jul 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/7/97
to

In article <brianbarge-04...@248.omaha-001.ne.dial-access.att.net> brian...@worldnet.att.net (Brian Barjenbruch) writes:

>In article <8680248...@dejanews.com>, gall...@interlynx.net wrote:
>> I saw the episode twice and did not see any sovereign-class ships. Star
>> Trek: First Contact takes place in 2373 and in that time the Enterprise-E
>> is the only ship of that class

>Impossible. There is a USS Sovereign, which is a <different ship> than
>the Enterprise-E. There cannot be a Sovereign-class without a Sovereign
>to name the class after.

Oh, but there can, Brian, there can.

Just one assumption is needed - namely, that the Sovereign has already
been destroyed.

This is not so hard to believe, considering the violent events of
the early 2370s. The biggest and baddest UFP starship would probably
have seen military action almost from the moment it left the
dockyards, and might have been destroyed by the Klingons, or
perhaps the Dominion - or in the ST:FC Borg offensive, where it
probably led one fleet or another and may have been the "flagship"
reported destroyed but not given a name in the radio chatter.

The latter option does not help in explaining Geordi's line
about the E-E being "the most powerful" ship in the fleet
instead of "one of the most powerful", though.

Frankly, though, I do not believe the Sovereign is dead yet,
nor do I believe her death is needed to explain Geordi's statement.
A chief engineer is allowed a bit of poetic licence, after all.

Timo Saloniemi

Brian Barjenbruch

unread,
Jul 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/7/97
to

> The latter option does not help in explaining Geordi's line
> about the E-E being "the most powerful" ship in the fleet

That's simple. The E-E is Geordi's ship, it's his responsibility. Naturally,
he'd claim it was the most advanced, whether or not it actually is. Ego, you know.

Timo S Saloniemi

unread,
Jul 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/7/97
to

In article <5pmf86$4...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> Andrew C Storrs <ast...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>Okay how about this:

>A prototype by definition means: "original type or model, first" thus it
>would have to be the first ship completed. Prototype's test to see if the
>design is workable, and wheither more of the smae should be built, or what
>should be changed before more are built.

>BUT, lets just say that their are some problems with the design/internal
>workings of the ship that make it unfit for service until they are
>corrected. The second ship (Yamato) already under construction during
>the Galaxy's space trials, is easy to fix because it is not yet completed,
>while the Galaxy has to be lets say "partially" dismantled for the changes
>to take place; and the Yamato makes it into regualr service before the Galaxy.

This acknowledges two good points about starship prototypes. One, unlike
aircraft prototypes, starship protos are so hugely expensive that they
have to be pressed to some kind of service even if they are total failures.
And successful prototypes are always put to service, while prototype
aircraft seldom see combat deployments, usually remaining the property
of the company instead of being delivered to the air force.

Two, we do have indirect evidence that "production" ships are usually
built at the same time with the "prototypes", suggesting that the
designs are usually verified before the building of the prototype,
perhaps by computer modeling. But changes to the later ships are
inevitable, and indeed the engines of the Enterprise appear to have
been designed AFTER the Galaxy received her engines ("Booby Trap"
and "Galaxy's Child"). Starfleet apparently likes to risk its
resources in the building of huge full-scale prototypes.

The Tech Manual timeline clearly states the Galaxy hit space
first, the Yamato second, and the Enterprise third. But it is not clear
when these ships were actually named - it is entirely possible that
the names were decided in a feverish creative effort by some
PR lieutenant during the night prior to the launching ceremony
and quickly spray-painted on the hulls while the guest were kept
occupied with additional cocktails. After all, the E-E was named
well after its keel was laid - we are led to believe it received
its name only months before launching, despite being on the works
ever since 2365 or so. Remember that there was another ship named
Enterprise in service almost until the launching day, and Starfleet
had absolutely no plans to retire that ship before launching the
one that ended up being named E-E.

Timo Saloniemi


Jack Bohn

unread,
Jul 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/12/97
to

David Stipes <dst...@earthlink.net> wrote:


>(D-7's are model kits and Vor'chs's
>are the sound making toys.)

>I hope I am not spoiling it for you. In these fleet/mob shots we use
>every trick we can to pull off the shot. :)

No spoilage here. That means the toy is, by definition, a
completely accurate representation of the ship <grin>


>If it matters, we did scale Martok's BOP up in
>size to appear more equal with the Defiant. That may give an impression
>of another class. Just artistic license. (Please forgive me. <G>)

No forgiveness needed. The more sizes of BoPs the greater the
chance that one of our BoP models or toys will finally be in scale
with some other Star Trek toy.

-Jack

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages