Jem'Hadar vs. The WSOGMM
George Daswani
: vessels. The Jem'Hadar pound the Defiant halfway into pulp. Sisko dealt with
: one of them easily enough, but he was losing. He couldn't maneuver fast enough
: to keep the Jem'Hadar in arc, and he was taking major damage. When three more
: ships arrive, it's clear the Defiant was doomed; in fact, it was boarded! The
I believe he would have destroyed all of them if he didn't not get hit
by that sucker punch first. (Getting his with sheilds down <g>)..
Joseph B Ferreira
DANGER! Spoiler breach!
Alright, I've finally seen the dice, and would like to amend my previous
statements on relative firepower.
First of all, I stand corrected: Defiant does have (marginal) aft weaponry.
An interesting feature on a Borg fighter, since one quantum tube isn't powerful
enough for the Borg to even notice; it does however fit well on a heavy
fighter....
Secondly, I think a lot of our earlier comments about Defiant vs. Galaxy class
were incorrect. Despite the thrashing the Defiant hands out in this episode, I
came away with the feeling that the Defiant wasn't something special as opposed
to the Odyssey: before you loudly and vociferously object, think about this.
When we see the Odyssey, she is attacked by 3 (count them, three) Jem'Hadar
vessels. The redoubtable Koegh fired two bursts (not long ones either) with 1
of the Odyssey's 10 phaser banks. He never once used the photon torpedoes (nor
did the runabouts, and O'Brien had upgraded them just for this...). In short,
the Feds follow standard policy, and return minimal fire on the verge of
destruction. The Odyssey seemed capable of withdrawing from this, up until the
point it was rammed. The take home message from this was that 3 Jem'Hadar
vessels could cripple (and maybe destroy) a Galaxy Class.
The first time we see the Defiant, it is attacked by 3 (count them, three)
vessels. The Jem'Hadar pound the Defiant halfway into pulp. Sisko dealt with
one of them easily enough, but he was losing. He couldn't maneuver fast enough
to keep the Jem'Hadar in arc, and he was taking major damage. When three more
ships arrive, it's clear the Defiant was doomed; in fact, it was boarded! The
general take home message from this is that 3 Jem'Hadar can oppose, 4 could
cripple, and 6 could destroy the Defiant.
In "The Die is Cast," Tain's fleet (5-10 Warbirds, and 10-15 mixed Galor/Keldin
Cardassian vessels) are attacked by 150 (can't count them, one-hundred-fifty)
Jem'Hadar "fighters" (I'm assuming these are the same sort of vessels as
before, but perhaps they aren't...). We didn't see any Dominion casualties,
and the Cardassian vessels at least were destoryed fairly easily. The Warbirds
were certainly out matched. The take home message here is simple: 150
almost-ships can blast 20 ships. This should be common sense, and is
fortunately reflected here. :-)
Now, here's the interesting part. The Defiant appears suddenly, and blasts its
way through at least 6 Jem'Hadar ships. It looks like it engages 10+, and
dodges an awful lot of firepower. There could easily be 30 fighters within
range to attack it. It then withdraws without a scratch that I could recall
(and even dropped shields for several seconds!). The take home message here
would seem to be that 6 Jem'Hadar would not stand against the Defiant, and 10
MIGHT be too many for it to handle.
Hopefully, you now see my problem.
What does it mean? Here's my opinion.
The Jem'Hadar are truly the first glimpse of real fighters in the ST universe:
they're small, limited firing arc, poorly shielded ships that are overarmed for
their size. Unlike the classic fighter, these seem capable of independant
operation (a Jem'Hadar carrier would be a -REAL- problem for our heroes!).
Nonetheless, they really are fighters. They're designed to overwhelm the
defenses of ships, and swarm them to death. The catch is that these are
technologically superior fighters: the Federation isn't really up to their
level and so the swarming isn't as necessary.
Now think about what this would mean. The Odyssey has no idea what to expect,
and is suddenly confronted with three "heavy shuttlecraft;" Koegh probably
expects these are part of the vangaurd (as most fighter tactics would imply),
and fires a short burst to disable them. Much to his surprise, the fighter
withstands his attack, and proceeds to fire straight through the Big-O's
shields. Keogh now realizes he's facing superior foes, but misjudges their
power. He wrongly assumes that these three vessels alone could defeat his own
ship. He decides to dely them until Sisko is recovered, by firing a few burst
at them, and generally drawing their fire. With Sisko recovered, the Odyssey
prepares to disengage: the Jem'Hadar, who were waiting to make their point,
then ram the Odyssey. They had never really intended o (nor could they) defeat
the Odyssey in a straight fight, but only wanted to show just how far they
would go to win.
Now both the Defiant in "The Search" and the Romulan/Cardassian task force were
caught off guard. The Jem'Hadar made the same size mistake with the Defiant,
and only sent a few ships to deal with it. Upon realizing their mistake, they
A) move out of the Defiant's forward centreline and B) call for reinforcements.
Nonetheless, the Defiant had already taken too great a pounding, and really
couldn't resist the few Jem'Hadar vessels. Notice however, how the Defiant was
able to take advantage of the Jem'Hadar's poor shields to destroy that fighter.
Now Tain's force was in an even worse situtation: his fleet is locked in
orbit, and -ambushed- by a MASSIVE force. The Jem'Hadar took no chances here,
and used classic swarm maneuvers. The flatfooted Rom/Cardies had no chance,
and were duly torn to pieces before they could mount an effective resistance.
The Defiant, however, surprises the Dominion for a change. It gets the first
shot, and manages to take out several fighters before they can counterattack.
This edge (combined with its suddenly useful shields) allows it to pound many
Jem'Hadar vessels while still surviving: the hit&run pits its strength
(overgunned and better shielded than a normal fighter) against the Jem'Hadar's
weakspot (poor defenses). Of course the fleet engagement going on nearby
helped, and the Jem'Hadar obviously wasn't really determined to fight the
Defiant. Result is that the Defiant wins.
So the feeling that I want to suggest is that if the Odyssey had pulled this
stunt (and had a cloaking device, of course), she might have achieved similar
results. She probably would have taken more hits (and more damage), but would
have still destroyed those Jem'Hadar, and gotten out alive. Same with a
Warbird, but maybe not a Cardassian (I'm still pretty unimpressed with their
ships!). Just some food for thought.
-Joey Ferreira
Lord of Moria
> Date: 7 MAY 1995 05:28:06 GMT
> From: Joseph B Ferreira <jbf@.MISSING-HOST-NAME.>
> Newgroups: rec.arts.startrek.tech
> Subject: Jem'Hadar vs. The WSOGMM
Good points there. One rumor I heard is that Berman said he's going to
change the idea of big is better in the TNG era. As we have seen, several
new class ships in the Federation are considerably smaller than we have
used to see. Such new ships include Runabout, Intrepid, and Escort class
ships. The Jem'hadar ships and Defiant use an attack style similiar to
that of Star War, smaller ships swarm a big ship. Their shields are
weak(relative to the BIG ones) but are overarmed and more manueverable.
For all we know, the BIG-E-E might also be smaller than its predessor.
Besides, why build a huge ship which can be destroyed by 3 smaller ships
when you can build three smaller ships which can take a Jem'Hadar ship
one-to-one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bryan E. Esquire
In article <3ohlp6$k...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Joseph B Ferreira <jbf> writes:
>WARNING: "The Die is Cast" primary Spoiler containment failure!
>
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>An interesting feature on a Borg fighter, since one quantum tube isn't powerful
>enough for the Borg to even notice; it does however fit well on a heavy
>fighter....
True. But marginal? 1701-D had only 1 aft torpedo tube too.
Is it quantum or photon? Too bad the episode wasn't specific.
Maybe there will be a novelization of these 2 episodes with
more detail.
>When we see the Odyssey, she is attacked by 3 (count them, three) Jem'Hadar
>vessels. The redoubtable Koegh fired two bursts (not long ones either) with 1
>of the Odyssey's 10 phaser banks. He never once used the photon torpedoes (nor
>did the runabouts, and O'Brien had upgraded them just for this...). In short,
>the Feds follow standard policy, and return minimal fire on the verge of
>destruction. The Odyssey seemed capable of withdrawing from this, up until the
>point it was rammed. The take home message from this was that 3 Jem'Hadar
>vessels could cripple (and maybe destroy) a Galaxy Class.
Galaxy class have 6 phaser banks, right? Once again we go into the
topic of photons not being a close range weapon. Photons cannot track.
They will primarily go straight, unless they are programmed to
disperse. Otherwise, the photons are useless against highly
maneuverable targets. Plus the fact that shields were down and
the Runabouts were "running about," photons can't be used.
Odyssey could withdraw from the battle, but could it make it back
to the wormhole without warp drive? Looks like the Odyssey
was about to lose containment. There were no communications,
no navigational control. NOthing.
Agreed. At least 3 J'H vessels can cripple if not destroy Galaxy
class. THe main point to take home from this episode ("Jem'Hadar"
was that the Jem'Hadar, though in tinier ships could humble the
best Starfleet had to offer at that time.
>The first time we see the Defiant, it is attacked by 3 (count them, three)
>vessels. The Jem'Hadar pound the Defiant halfway into pulp. Sisko dealt with
>one of them easily enough, but he was losing. He couldn't maneuver fast enough
>to keep the Jem'Hadar in arc, and he was taking major damage. When three more
>ships arrive, it's clear the Defiant was doomed; in fact, it was boarded! The
>general take home message from this is that 3 Jem'Hadar can oppose, 4 could
>cripple, and 6 could destroy the Defiant.
Defiand was not ready. She was under cloak, which meant that her
weapons weren't charged and her shields were down.
If Defiant is not ready for battle, 3 ships can challenge the
Defiant. 6 could severely damage and/or destroy (maybe) the Defiant.
If Defiant is battle ready (Die is Cast), nothing can stand in
it's way.
>In "The Die is Cast," Tain's fleet (5-10 Warbirds, and 10-15 mixed Galor/Keldin
>Cardassian vessels) are attacked by 150 (can't count them, one-hundred-fifty)
>Jem'Hadar "fighters" (I'm assuming these are the same sort of vessels as
>before, but perhaps they aren't...). We didn't see any Dominion casualties,
>and the Cardassian vessels at least were destoryed fairly easily. The Warbirds
>were certainly out matched. The take home message here is simple: 150
>almost-ships can blast 20 ships. This should be common sense, and is
>fortunately reflected here. :-)
Judging from the Romulan's facial expression,t he computer readou; was fairly accurate -- 150 Jem'Hadar ships. Judging from the
size of the ship and the look of the ships, they are the same.
The J'H has that "insect" look. THe only DOminion casualties
were those 6-7 ships that the Defiant destroyed/disabled.
Is there an exact count of the Cardassian-Romulan invasion fleet?
20-25 sounds about right. \
It was AMAZING!! DS9 was reshown tonight. I saw 3 Jem'Hadar
phased-polaron beams hit the Cardassian warship, and the entire
front section of the ship was destroyed. Now that's POWER.
THe Romulan Warbirds, however, were sustaining much of the hits,
but the entire ship was incapacitated, so it couldn't fight.
>Now, here's the interesting part. The Defiant appears suddenly, and blasts its
>way through at least 6 Jem'Hadar ships. It looks like it engages 10+, and
>dodges an awful lot of firepower. There could easily be 30 fighters within
>range to attack it. It then withdraws without a scratch that I could recall
>(and even dropped shields for several seconds!). The take home message here
>would seem to be that 6 Jem'Hadar would not stand against the Defiant, and 10
>MIGHT be too many for it to handle.
>Hopefully, you now see my problem.
The main thing is probably the J'H/Founders didn't deem the
Defiant to be the main focus of the battle. The foucs was to
totally incapacitate the Obsidian Order and the Tal'Shiar Sects
of the Cardassians and the Romulans. There was minor damage to
Defiant's shields and some casualties on the bridge from what
was pictured.
The thing is that Defiant was ready foir battle. Also, Sisko
knew the tactics of the J'H and was prepared to deal with it
accordingly.
>The Jem'Hadar are truly the first glimpse of real fighters in the ST universe:
>they're small, limited firing arc, poorly shielded ships that are overarmed for
>their size. Unlike the classic fighter, these seem capable of independant
>operation (a Jem'Hadar carrier would be a -REAL- problem for our heroes!).
>Nonetheless, they really are fighters. They're designed to overwhelm the
>defenses of ships, and swarm them to death. The catch is that these are
>technologically superior fighters: the Federation isn't really up to their
>level and so the swarming isn't as necessary.
Agreed. The thing with the J'H, they're able to easily overwheln
the defenses of ships. Cardassian ships aren't even capable of
withstanding their firepower. The warbirds are just as bad, but
their hulls could withstand more of the pounding (like Galaxy class
ships).
The Federation definitely isn't up tho that level of fighting,
but it's still a step ahead of the Romulans, Cardassians, and
Klingons with the Defiant.
>Now think about what this would mean. The Odyssey has no idea what to expect,
>and is suddenly confronted with three "heavy shuttlecraft;" Koegh probably
>expects these are part of the vangaurd (as most fighter tactics would imply),
>and fires a short burst to disable them. Much to his surprise, the fighter
>withstands his attack, and proceeds to fire straight through the Big-O's
>shields. Keogh now realizes he's facing superior foes, but misjudges their
>power. He wrongly assumes that these three vessels alone could defeat his own
>ship. He decides to dely them until Sisko is recovered, by firing a few burst
>at them, and generally drawing their fire. With Sisko recovered, the Odyssey
>prepares to disengage: the Jem'Hadar, who were waiting to make their point,
>then ram the Odyssey. They had never really intended o (nor could they) defeat
>the Odyssey in a straight fight, but only wanted to show just how far they
>would go to win.
I guess one could assume that the Odyssey would be able to walk
away from the 3 J'H ships, but even if there wasn't a kamikazee
attack on the Odyssey, the J'H ships, given enough time, would have
caused the Odyssey's destructions. If you'll notice in the episode,
the main target was the port nacelle. Given enough time, the
warp core would have failed. Still, I agree. The Kamikazee attack
was only done to show how far the J'H were willing to go. I think
that was even stated in the episode.
>Now both the Defiant in "The Search" and the Romulan/Cardassian task force were
>caught off guard. The Jem'Hadar made the same size mistake with the Defiant,
>and only sent a few ships to deal with it.
I don't think that the J'H made a mistake by sending a few ships
to deal with it. The J'H now know the abilities of Defiant.
I think the main reason that the J'H really didn't pay attention to
the Defiant was because they weren't the real issue.
>A) move out of the Defiant's forward centreline and B) call for reinforcements.
>Nonetheless, the Defiant had already taken too great a pounding, and really
>couldn't resist the few Jem'Hadar vessels.
Agreed.
> Notice however, how the Defiant was
>able to take advantage of the Jem'Hadar's poor shields to destroy that fighter.
J'H poor shields? No. To withstand full phasers from a Galaxy
class ship? THose have to be some awesome shileds. THe fact that
Defiant can penetrate thoe J'H shields is that her phasers are
2 times normal power.
>Now Tain's force was in an even worse situtation: his fleet is locked in
>orbit, and -ambushed- by a MASSIVE force. The Jem'Hadar took no chances here,
>and used classic swarm maneuvers. The flatfooted Rom/Cardies had no chance,
>and were duly torn to pieces before they could mount an effective resistance.
Plus the fact that the Romulan Colonel refused to leave orbit.
The fleet could have easily cloaked, and kept rotating the cloak's
frequency to prevent detection. Then they could have warp
outta there. Still, there was ample time from the point Tain said
"...on tactical display..." and 150 dots appeared on the acreen
to wherer they were actually attacked. Now if the fleet had
begun a massive attack like they did with the volleys on the
planet, them maybe the J'H would be slightly affected.
>So the feeling that I want to suggest is that if the Odyssey had pulled this
>stunt (and had a cloaking device, of course), she might have achieved similar
>results. She probably would have taken more hits (and more damage), but would
>have still destroyed those Jem'Hadar, and gotten out alive. Same with a
>Warbird, but maybe not a Cardassian (I'm still pretty unimpressed with their
>ships!). Just some food for thought.
If Odyssey had sufficient space to use her torpedoes, then she
would have won. But from what was shown, the J'H's phased polaron
beam has a long range and can fire from quiate a distance.
Again...Odyssey lacks the phaser power to combat a J'H warship.
Defiant does. Even if Odyssey had the same advantages as Defiant
(w/o the enhanced weaponry), Odyssey may have lasted longer,
but would have stilll lost.
--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
You think the only people who are people || Marc Escuro [R]
Are the people who look and think like you || (aka Bryan Esquire)
But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger || (aka Bucko)
You learn things you never knew, you never knew. || UC, Santa Cruz
from "Pocahontas" || bas...@cats.ucsc.edu
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ddhu...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
Bryan E. Esquire <bas...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>In article <3ohlp6$k...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Joseph B Ferreira <jbf> writes:
[snip]
>>vessels. The redoubtable Koegh fired two bursts (not long ones either) with 1
>>of the Odyssey's 10 phaser banks. He never once used the photon torpedoes (nor
[snip]
>
> Galaxy class have 6 phaser banks, right? Once again we go into the
The Galaxy class has 12 phaser banks. They are: Ventral saucer, Dorsal saucer,
Port/Starboard Nacelle, Port/Starboard just behind the saucer and Battle bridge,
One in front of the battle bridge (hidden unless separated), upper aft port
and starboard, lower aft port and starboard, lower middle (somewhere around the
core ejection point).
And about this Defiant phaser power thing...
The Defiant _has_ to have more than four *emitters*. It obviously can release
the energy from four points, but if it has only four emitters, then the total
phaser power it has is about 40.8 MW. By comparison, the Galaxy's phasers can
put out about 2.5 GW from various banks. This is because the emitters fire in
sequence, until they reach the release point, and _then_ the energy is released
at the target. The upper dorsal phaser bank has 200 emitters, each of which can
put out 5.1 MW. If the Defiant has four emitters which put out about double the
power of the Galaxy's, then the total phaser power of the Defiant is 40.8 MW.
I refuse to believe that the Feds made such large advancements in phaser tech
that 40.8 MW of the new phasers is more powerful than 2.5 GW of the old phasers.My current theory is that the Defiant has clusters of emitters hidden from view
inside the outer skin. This would allow them to fire in sequence the same way,
getting the appropriate amount of power. This explains both the Defiant's
obvious phaser power, and the fact that we can only see four release points.
In fact, it could be that bunching them together is more effective than lining
them up as they do on other Fed ships. One could postulate that they usually
line them up because they want as much flexibility as possible. (The Galaxy
ain't exactly the most maneuverable ship) When it came to the Defiant,
flexibility wasn't an issue. They wanted a ship that could fire straight, hard,
and fast. Any other thoughts?
D
Chung, Peter W.
>
>In article <3ohlp6$k...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Joseph B Ferreira <jbf> writes:
>>WARNING: "The Die is Cast" primary Spoiler containment failure!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
> topic of photons not being a close range weapon. Photons cannot track.
> They will primarily go straight, unless they are programmed to
> disperse. Otherwise, the photons are useless against highly
> maneuverable targets. Plus the fact that shields were down and
Photorps can track in several modes. They can be directed
to the target in a fashion similar to semi-active homing
(but this can be useless if the firing ships lost it's
photon controls like in "Wrath o'Kahn".) The torps also
have the funny pre-programmed patterns and yes the direct
fire method. We know that in at least the "Undiscovered
Country" that photorps had some type of seekers, but had
to be modified for tracking plasma trails.à ,à v_∆|.
And I seriously doubt that a BOP is not a highly maneuverable
target.
˘
> the Runabouts were "running about," photons can't be used.
> Odyssey could withdraw from the battle, but could it make it back
> to the wormhole without warp drive? Looks like the Odyssey
> was about to lose containment. There were no communications,
> no navigational control. NOthing.
She had navigational control. Capt. Keogh was yelling to
get the port warp nacelle back on'line. She was not going
to lose containment. If it were not for the ramming, she
would of made it out (if she restored her port warp nacelle).
>
> Agreed. At least 3 J'H vessels can cripple if not destroy Galaxy
> class. THe main point to take home from this episode ("Jem'Hadar"
> was that the Jem'Hadar, though in tinier ships could humble the
> best Starfleet had to offer at that time.
The best ship or the best commander? That galaxy-class wasn't
even using its maximum amount of firepower... at all.
>
>>The first time we see the Defiant, it is attacked by 3 (count them, three)
>>vessels. The Jem'Hadar pound the Defiant halfway into pulp. Sisko dealt with
>>one of them easily enough, but he was losing. He couldn't maneuver fast enough
>>to keep the Jem'Hadar in arc, and he was taking major damage. When three more
>>ships arrive, it's clear the Defiant was doomed; in fact, it was boarded! The
>>general take home message from this is that 3 Jem'Hadar can oppose, 4 could
>>cripple, and 6 could destroy the Defiant.
>
> Defiand was not ready. She was under cloak, which meant that her
> weapons weren't charged and her shields were down.
The Defiant had her weapons ready. Only her shields were
down, and that wouldn't of mattered anyway. It took twenty
seconds for Sisko to shake of his initial shock and figure
out it was better to decloak and fight (simplification on
what happened, but the time is correct.)
> If Defiant is not ready for battle, 3 ships can challenge the
> Defiant. 6 could severely damage and/or destroy (maybe) the Defiant.
> If Defiant is battle ready (Die is Cast), nothing can stand in
> it's way.
It really looked more like the Defiant got really lucky.
She surprised the three jem'hedars chasing Odo (hooray!)
and for the most part magically dodged the second jem'hedar
group's poleron fire to plow through two. Considering that the
jem'hedar didn't practice the same tactics on the Defiant
that were used in the Search, the Defiant was very fortunate.
Not to mention, the Defiant wasn't the main objective for
the jem'hedar anyway.
>
>
>>The Jem'Hadar are truly the first glimpse of real fighters in the ST universe:
>>they're small, limited firing arc, poorly shielded ships that are overarmed for
>>their size. Unlike the classic fighter, these seem capable of independant
>>operation (a Jem'Hadar carrier would be a -REAL- problem for our heroes!).
>>Nonetheless, they really are fighters. They're designed to overwhelm the
>>defenses of ships, and swarm them to death. The catch is that these are
>>technologically superior fighters: the Federation isn't really up to their
>>level and so the swarming isn't as necessary.
>
> Agreed. The thing with the J'H, they're able to easily overwheln
> the defenses of ships. Cardassian ships aren't even capable of
> withstanding their firepower. The warbirds are just as bad, but
> their hulls could withstand more of the pounding (like Galaxy class
> ships).
It would have helped the Romulans if there wasn't a changling
in their midst. The jem'hedar knew exzctly where to shoot,
picking out the bottom of the Warbird as the first to
hit (where there power core is, if I remember that
phased Geordi and Ro episode right). The initial moments had
three of the Warbirds' power grids knocked out. Not their
warp drives, but the power grids. The jem'hedar knew exactly
what they were doing and what to hit. The Big-O faired much
better in this respect because the jem'hedar knew to shoot
at what looked like the warp drive, but was unable to knock
out the Big-O's power grid.
> The Federation definitely isn't up tho that level of fighting,
> but it's still a step ahead of the Romulans, Cardassians, and
> Klingons with the Defiant.
Well, you're probably going to get your wish since the writers
are leaning torwards small Wing Commander-style ships.
>
>> Notice however, how the Defiant was
>>able to take advantage of the Jem'Hadar's poor shields to destroy that fighter.
>
> J'H poor shields? No. To withstand full phasers from a Galaxy
> class ship? THose have to be some awesome shileds. THe fact that
The Big-O never concentratedfire long enough to do any damage.
They were hardly full phasers. If Federation starships
used phaser bolts (like Warbirds, Defiant) use, then we
can consider the Big-O's phaser strike as full phasers.
The Big-O's phasers are designed to be used as a beam though.
>
>>Now Tain's force was in an even worse situtation: his fleet is locked in
>>orbit, and -ambushed- by a MASSIVE force. The Jem'Hadar took no chances here,
>>and used classic swarm maneuvers. The flatfooted Rom/Cardies had no chance,
>>and were duly torn to pieces before they could mount an effective resistance.
>
> Plus the fact that the Romulan Colonel refused to leave orbit.
> The fleet could have easily cloaked, and kept rotating the cloak's
> frequency to prevent detection. Then they could have warp
> outta there. Still, there was ample time from the point Tain said
> "...on tactical display..." and 150 dots appeared on the acreen
> to wherer they were actually attacked. Now if the fleet had
> begun a massive attack like they did with the volleys on the
> planet, them maybe the J'H would be slightly affected.
True. Something different might of happened, but that depends
on these factors:
A) Jem Hedar had detailed knowledge of the fleet's strength
and weaknesses from their inside man. Would it have
mattered if the fleet tried to fight at all? They'd
probably still get slaughtered.
B) What if there was no inside man? Would the Founders have
been caught of guard and wiped out, only to have the
Jem'Hedar in a cry of vengeance try and battle the
fleet? Maybe only a few of the ships (the more hardier
and better commanded ones) could make it back.
>
>>So the feeling that I want to suggest is that if the Odyssey had pulled this
>>stunt (and had a cloaking device, of course), she might have achieved similar
>>results. She probably would have taken more hits (and more damage), but would
>>have still destroyed those Jem'Hadar, and gotten out alive. Same with a
>>Warbird, but maybe not a Cardassian (I'm still pretty unimpressed with their
>>ships!). Just some food for thought.
>
> If Odyssey had sufficient space to use her torpedoes, then she
> would have won. But from what was shown, the J'H's phased polaron
> beam has a long range and can fire from quiate a distance.
> Again...Odyssey lacks the phaser power to combat a J'H warship.
> Defiant does. Even if Odyssey had the same advantages as Defiant
> (w/o the enhanced weaponry), Odyssey may have lasted longer,
> but would have stilll lost.
From what the original poster is saying, the Defiant's advantage
is from her enchanced weaponry (I think that's what he said),
if so, then what other possibly advantage could you give
the Big-O and still deny her the advanced weaponry? It
would be humorous to see the Big-O (as big as it is) zipping
about space like the Defiant and magically dodge poleron
bolts.
The Big-O didn't lose 100% by technical inferiority, her
commander had a lot to do with it too. (I won't mention the
writers, because that's reality :)
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <D89GK...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> ddhu...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>
>The Galaxy class has 12 phaser banks. They are: Ventral saucer, Dorsal saucer,
>Port/Starboard Nacelle, Port/Starboard just behind the saucer and Battle bridge,
>One in front of the battle bridge (hidden unless separated), upper aft port
>and starboard, lower aft port and starboard, lower middle (somewhere around the
>core ejection point).
I assume you got this from the tech manuaL. Ok.
>aNd about this Defiant phaser power thing...
>The Defiant _has_ to have more than four *emitters*. It obviously can release
>the energy from four points, but if it has only four emitters, then the total
>phaser power it has is about 40.8 MW. By comparison, the Galaxy's phasers can
>put out about 2.5 GW from various banks. This is because the emitters fire in
>sequence, until they reach the release point, and _then_ the energy is released
>at the target. The upper dorsal phaser bank has 200 emitters, each of which can
>put out 5.1 MW. If the Defiant has four emitters which put out about double the
>power of the Galaxy's, then the total phaser power of the Defiant is 40.8 MW.
>I refuse to believe that the Feds made such large advancements in phaser tech
>that 40.8 MW of the new phasers is more powerful than 2.5 GW of the old phasers.My current theory is that the Defiant has clusters of emitters hidden from view
>inside the outer skin. This would allow them to fire in sequence the same way,
>getting the appropriate amount of power. This explains both the Defiant's
>obvious phaser power, and the fact that we can only see four release points.
>In fact, it could be that bunching them together is more effective than lining
>them up as they do on other Fed ships. One could postulate that they usually
>line them up because they want as much flexibility as possible. (The Galaxy
>ain't exactly the most maneuverable ship) When it came to the Defiant,
>flexibility wasn't an issue. They wanted a ship that could fire straight, hard,
>and fast. Any other thoughts?
It's really simple. Galaxy class was proven to be insufficient to\
the Jem'Hadar's attack.
It's stated that the Defiant has double phaser power (compared to
what, I don't know), but it proves more than enough to fight the
J'H.
I agree with your statement...Starfleet wanted a ship that could
fight straight, hard, and fast...something that could provide an
adequate defense to the Borg.
Joseph B Ferreira
>>First of all, I stand corrected: Defiant does have (marginal) aft weaponry.
ever fit well on a >>heavy fighter....
>
> True. But marginal? 1701-D had only 1 aft torpedo tube too.
> Is it quantum or photon? Too bad the episode wasn't specific.
> Maybe there will be a novelization of these 2 episodes with
> more detail.
>
however, have several phaser banks which can fire to the rear.
>>The first time we see the Defiant, it is attacked by 3 (count them, three)
>>vessels. The Jem'Hadar pound the Defiant halfway into pulp. Sisko dealt with
>>enough to keep the Jem'Hadar in arc, and he was taking major damage. When >>three more ships arrive, it's clear the Defiant was d=
oomed; in fact, it was >>boarded! The general take home message from this is that 3 Jem'Hadar can >>oppose, 4 could cripple, and 6=
could destroy the Defiant.
> Defiand was not ready. She was under cloak, which meant that her
> weapons weren't charged and her shields were down.
> If Defiant is not ready for battle, 3 ships can challenge the
> Defiant. 6 could severely damage and/or destroy (maybe) the Defiant.
> If Defiant is battle ready (Die is Cast), nothing can stand in
> it's way.
>
Ships under cloak CAN arm and target weapons: Tain didn't waste any time in
"TDiC:" if Sisko was idiotic enough to be repeatedly scanned by Jem'Hadar
right next to him and NOT EVEN BOTHER ARMING HIS WEAPONS, that's his own
lookout...
I suspect her waepons WERE aremed, and the shields didn't matter. By the way,
if the Defiant is caught off gaurd, 6 CAN destroy it ("Search"). If it was
ambushed, I suspect 3 could take it out.
And my dear bashir, the list of things that could stand against it (when it IS
prepared) is endless: 100+ Jem'Hadar (or Warbirds, or Galaxies...), a TARDIS,
the "Heart of Gold," the Liberator (with Orac!), Q, Epsilon 3, etc.....
>THe only DOminion casualties
> were those 6-7 ships that the Defiant destroyed/disabled.
>
Zarquan, I hope not. I suspect it's like that 1 Ewok casualty in Return of the
Jedi' and we just didn't see the rest.
> The thing is that Defiant was ready foir battle. Also, Sisko
> knew the tactics of the J'H and was prepared to deal with it
> accordingly.
>
Really? The Dominion used a new form of weapon, and the same strafing pattern
(in most respects) they employed against both the Odyssey and the Defiant. How
did Sisko suddenly learn their tactics?
> I guess one could assume that the Odyssey would be able to walk
> away from the 3 J'H ships, but even if there wasn't a kamikazee
> attack on the Odyssey, the J'H ships, given enough time, would have
> caused the Odyssey's destructions.
>
By that time the Odyssey would have withdrawn, or really opened fire...
>> Notice however, how the Defiant was
>>able to take advantage of the Jem'Hadar's poor shields to destroy that >>fighter.
>
> J'H poor shields? No. To withstand full phasers from a Galaxy
> class ship? THose have to be some awesome shileds.
>
Yes, poor shields. The Defiant walloped a Cardassian vessel with 6 or so
phaser hits, and it was damaged, not even disabled. The Defiant his the
Jem'Hadar with 4-6 phaser hits and it was destroyed. Not disabled, destroyed.
I'm sure you know by now what respect I hold the Cardassian vessels in, so the
Jem'Hadar MUST have poor shields.
And, as I (and others) have pointed out several times, the Odyssey NEVER
subjected the J'H to "full" phasers. Nowhere near it.
> THe fact that
> Defiant can penetrate thoe J'H shields is that her phasers are
> 2 times normal power.
>
Ridiculous. If the Defiant's phasers are twice as powerful as those on a
Galaxy, then if the Odyssey had fired both the nacelle banks at one Jem'Hadar
for a full second and a half, the J'H vessel would have been destroyed...
If the Odyssey had done 'nothing' as you keep saying, then Defiant would do
"twice nothing," yet it obviously doesn't.
>>Now Tain's force was in an even worse situtation: his fleet is locked in
>>orbit, and -ambushed- by a MASSIVE force. The Jem'Hadar took no chances here,
>>and used classic swarm maneuvers. The flatfooted Rom/Cardies had no chance,
>>and were duly torn to pieces before they could mount an effective resistance.
>
> Plus the fact that the Romulan Colonel refused to leave orbit.
> The fleet could have easily cloaked, and kept rotating the cloak's
> frequency to prevent detection.
>
Agreed. That would have been my advice. I suspect the Jem'Hadar couldn't
track the fleet while it was cloaked, hence they waited for it to decloak
before they attacked.
> If Odyssey had sufficient space to use her torpedoes, then she
> would have won. But from what was shown, the J'H's phased polaron
> beam has a long range and can fire from quiate a distance.
> Again...Odyssey lacks the phaser power to combat a J'H warship.
> Defiant does. Even if Odyssey had the same advantages as Defiant
> (w/o the enhanced weaponry), Odyssey may have lasted longer,
> but would have stilll lost.
>
Please, no more of this "sufficient space" for Photon Torpedoes: in Star Treks
II, VI, and VII the respective Enterprise takes a Photon Torpedo hit to its
UNSHIELDED HULL. You CANNOT get any closer than that! If the Odyssey were
able to take the J'H by surprise (and had a decent Captain!), it could easily
load the Photons for full yield, and fire 10 or so in the general direction of
the J'H. If Photon proximity effects are so ungodly powerful as people keep
implying this would clear out a swath of J'H vessels (and they could NOT dodge
the torpedoes). This combined with a real phaser alpha strike (ie. something
like "Continual fire, all phasers!" in "Yesterday's Enterprise" or "Full fire,
all weapons!" in BoBW) would get the Odyssey past the Jem'Hadar just as easly
as the Defiant did. I grant you, the Odyssey would take far more hits, but
then it wouldn't have to wait until 500 meters either...
-Joey Ferreira
Michael Naoki Satake
another Galaxy Class starship into the gamma quadrant, presumably with
improved weaponry (quantum torpedoes, etc.).
Perhaps, eventually, there will be a Federation-Dominion
conflict, so maybe we'll find out the answer then... (Star Trek: DS9: The
Motion Picture? :P)
Mike
--
__________________________________________________________________
This message in no way reflects the opinions of the administration,
staff, or student body of Washington University in St. Louis.
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <8MAY1995...@rosie.uh.edu> st...@rosie.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>
>Photorps can track in several modes. They can be directed
>to the target in a fashion similar to semi-active homing
>(but this can be useless if the firing ships lost it's
>photon controls like in "Wrath o'Kahn".) The torps also
>have the funny pre-programmed patterns and yes the direct
>fire method. We know that in at least the "Undiscovered
>Country" that photorps had some type of seekers, but had
>to be modified for tracking plasma trails.à ,à v_∆|.
>And I seriously doubt that a BOP is not a highly maneuverable
>target.
The photons in ST6 were modified with equipment that tracked
gaseous anomalies.
Photons cannot track fast moving targets like the J'H. Sure, you
can launch a massive volley and hope they hit something, but
that's about it. That's inefficient to, especially when the
ships can scatter and regroup.
>She had navigational control. Capt. Keogh was yelling to
>get the port warp nacelle back on'line. She was not going
>to lose containment. If it were not for the ramming, she
>would of made it out (if she restored her port warp nacelle).
I can swear they lost navigantion. Oh well. Been a long time
since I've watched it.
I believe the Pdyssey would have survived the ramming (at least
the saucer anyways) if the remanants of the J'H didn't slam into
the starboard nacelle. Lok at it closely.
>The best ship or the best commander? That galaxy-class wasn't
>even using its maximum amount of firepower... at all.
Yes they were in addition to the added power from the shields.
>> Defiand was not ready. She was under cloak, which meant that her
>> weapons weren't charged and her shields were down.
>The Defiant had her weapons ready. Only her shields were
>down, and that wouldn't of mattered anyway. It took twenty
>seconds for Sisko to shake of his initial shock and figure
>out it was better to decloak and fight (simplification on
>what happened, but the time is correct.)
Defiant WAS NOT ready for an attack. They believed that the
cloak was impenetrable. Obviously the J'H had analyzed the
anti-proton scan.
SHields were obviously down, since you can't have them raised and
still be cloaked. Weapons were off line. I'll have to watch it
again.
>It really looked more like the Defiant got really lucky.
>She surprised the three jem'hedars chasing Odo (hooray!)
>and for the most part magically dodged the second jem'hedar
>group's poleron fire to plow through two. Considering that the
>jem'hedar didn't practice the same tactics on the Defiant
>that were used in the Search, the Defiant was very fortunate.
Defiant was still able to provide assistance. They were still
outnumbered. THey were just prepared this time. If the J'h \
were looking for a cloak, then they would have been ambushed.
Defiant got hit a few times, and dodged the rest.
Impressive little ship.
>Not to mention, the Defiant wasn't the main objective for
>the jem'hedar anyway.
Agreed.
>It would have helped the Romulans if there wasn't a changling
>in their midst. The jem'hedar knew exzctly where to shoot,
>picking out the bottom of the Warbird as the first to
>hit (where there power core is, if I remember that
>phased Geordi and Ro episode right). The initial moments had
>three of the Warbirds' power grids knocked out. Not their
>warp drives, but the power grids. The jem'hedar knew exactly
>what they were doing and what to hit. The Big-O faired much
>better in this respect because the jem'hedar knew to shoot
>at what looked like the warp drive, but was unable to knock
>out the Big-O's power grid.
Still, if they didn't know where to hit, then they would have
used the same tactics used on Odyssey. Slam their warp nacelles.
That way, they would have no way of moving.
>> The Federation definitely isn't up tho that level of fighting,
>> but it's still a step ahead of the Romulans, Cardassians, and
>> Klingons with the Defiant.
>Well, you're probably going to get your wish since the writers
>are leaning torwards small Wing Commander-style ships.
Hee hee hee hee hee...
THis would look great on the big screen, huh? ST8?
>The Big-O never concentratedfire long enough to do any damage.
>They were hardly full phasers. If Federation starships
>used phaser bolts (like Warbirds, Defiant) use, then we
>can consider the Big-O's phaser strike as full phasers.
>The Big-O's phasers are designed to be used as a beam though.
Doubt it. Why would you go into battle using less than full
phasers. There's a certain logic to that.
Besides, the Galaxy class phaser banks can fire in pulse fashion.
Watch Best of Both Worlds.
It's similar to it anyways,,
> A) Jem Hedar had detailed knowledge of the fleet's strength
> and weaknesses from their inside man. Would it have
> mattered if the fleet tried to fight at all? They'd
> probably still get slaughtered.
Still any type of resistance is better than nnone at all.
> B) What if there was no inside man? Would the Founders have
> been caught of guard and wiped out, only to have the
> Jem'Hedar in a cry of vengeance try and battle the
> fleet? Maybe only a few of the ships (the more hardier
> and better commanded ones) could make it back.
Probably not. There would have been severe damage to the planet,
but otherwise, the J'H would be called in, and that would be the
end of the fleet. It may take longer to destroy them, but the
fleet would be gone.
>From what the original poster is saying, the Defiant's advantage
>is from her enchanced weaponry (I think that's what he said),
>if so, then what other possibly advantage could you give
>the Big-O and still deny her the advanced weaponry? It
>would be humorous to see the Big-O (as big as it is) zipping
>about space like the Defiant and magically dodge poleron
>bolts.
Odyssey has no advantage. Unless Starfleet rquips it with the
enhanced phasers, galaxy class is less powerful.
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <3omvav$n...@news.ycc.yale.edu> jra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (John P. Raynor) writes:
>
>Does anybody know whether the price for the special effects associated
>with depicting "space battle" scenes has changed? If it has become
>cheaper and easier to put a lot of ships on the screen at the same time,
>this might have something to do with this rumored shift towards
>smaller "fighters", and more complicated "dogfight" battles. Somebody
>also might have pointed out tha just making the NEXT starship EVEN BIGGER
>is unlikely to really impress anyone AGAIN. Perhaps I'm being too cynical.
Doubt it. Creating battle scenes are extremely expensive,
especially ones that involve 150+ ships. My guess is that many of
the shot fo the J'H ships were computer generated, unless of course
Paramount built 150 of those things.
John P. Raynor
: Good points there. One rumor I heard is that Berman said he's going to
: new class ships in the Federation are considerably smaller than we have
: used to see. Such new ships include Runabout, Intrepid, and Escort class
: ships. The Jem'hadar ships and Defiant use an attack style similiar to
: that of Star War, smaller ships swarm a big ship. Their shields are
: weak(relative to the BIG ones) but are overarmed and more manueverable.
: For all we know, the BIG-E-E might also be smaller than its predessor.
: Besides, why build a huge ship which can be destroyed by 3 smaller ships
: when you can build three smaller ships which can take a Jem'Hadar ship
: one-to-one.
Does anybody know whether the price for the special effects associated
with depicting "space battle" scenes has changed? If it has become
cheaper and easier to put a lot of ships on the screen at the same time,
this might have something to do with this rumored shift towards
smaller "fighters", and more complicated "dogfight" battles. Somebody
also might have pointed out tha just making the NEXT starship EVEN BIGGER
is unlikely to really impress anyone AGAIN. Perhaps I'm being too cynical.
- J. Raynor
James D Thompson
: In article <3omvav$n...@news.ycc.yale.edu> jra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (John P. Raynor) writes:
: >
: >Does anybody know whether the price for the special effects associated
: >with depicting "space battle" scenes has changed? If it has become
: >cheaper and easier to put a lot of ships on the screen at the same time,
: >this might have something to do with this rumored shift towards
: >smaller "fighters", and more complicated "dogfight" battles. Somebody
: >also might have pointed out tha just making the NEXT starship EVEN BIGGER
: >is unlikely to really impress anyone AGAIN. Perhaps I'm being too cynical.
: Doubt it. Creating battle scenes are extremely expensive,
: especially ones that involve 150+ ships. My guess is that many of
: the shot fo the J'H ships were computer generated, unless of course
: Paramount built 150 of those things.
:
: --
: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
: You think the only people who are people || Marc Escuro [R]
: Are the people who look and think like you || (aka Bryan Esquire)
: But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger || (aka Bucko)
: You learn things you never knew, you never knew. || UC, Santa Cruz
: from "Pocahontas" || bas...@cats.ucsc.edu
: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@N
Battle scenes do cost money, but no one in their right mind would build 150 of
anything. What they probably did was to reshoot the same model in different
positions, then bluescreen all of the shots together. They probably did the
Romulan-Cardassian fleet the same way. As for CG, it looked like the explos
ons were done that way, like they've been doing for most of the season. Hmmm,
I wonder where they got the idea for that. Couldn't be another show that has
a letter-number combination, could it? (Sarcasm mode off). I bet that if you go
back and count, they never showed more than ten or fifteen ships(from anyone)
in any one scene.
David Thompson, who wonders what a next-generation Romulan Warbird would look
like...
a
Chung, Peter W.
>
>In article <8MAY1995...@rosie.uh.edu> st...@rosie.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>>
>>Photorps can track in several modes. They can be directed
>>to the target in a fashion similar to semi-active homing
>>(but this can be useless if the firing ships lost it's
>>photon controls like in "Wrath o'Kahn".) The torps also
>>have the funny pre-programmed patterns and yes the direct
>>fire method. We know that in at least the "Undiscovered
>>Country" that photorps had some type of seekers, but had
>>to be modified for tracking plasma trails.à ,à v_∆|.
>>And I seriously doubt that a BOP is not a highly maneuverable
>>target.
>
> The photons in ST6 were modified with equipment that tracked
> gaseous anomalies.
> Photons cannot track fast moving targets like the J'H. Sure, you
To beg the question, but where is the justification that
photorps cannot track fast moving targets like the jem'hedar?
> can launch a massive volley and hope they hit something, but
> that's about it. That's inefficient to, especially when the
> ships can scatter and regroup.
That's assuming that your assertion that photorps cannot track
fast moving targets is true. The jem'hedar do not do be
any more maneuverable than a klingon bird o'prey. (But,
then again, BOPs don't have phased polaron beams).
>
>>She had navigational control. Capt. Keogh was yelling to
>>get the port warp nacelle back on'line. She was not going
>>to lose containment. If it were not for the ramming, she
>>would of made it out (if she restored her port warp nacelle).
>
> I can swear they lost navigantion. Oh well. Been a long time
> since I've watched it.
> I believe the Pdyssey would have survived the ramming (at least
> the saucer anyways) if the remanants of the J'H didn't slam into
> the starboard nacelle. Lok at it closely.
Yeah, the Big-O was very unfortunate.
>
>>The best ship or the best commander? That galaxy-class wasn't
>>even using its maximum amount of firepower... at all.
>
> Yes they were in addition to the added power from the shields.
>
>>> Defiand was not ready. She was under cloak, which meant that her
>>> weapons weren't charged and her shields were down.
>>The Defiant had her weapons ready. Only her shields were
>>down, and that wouldn't of mattered anyway. It took twenty
>>seconds for Sisko to shake of his initial shock and figure
>>out it was better to decloak and fight (simplification on
>>what happened, but the time is correct.)
>
> Defiant WAS NOT ready for an attack. They believed that the
> cloak was impenetrable. Obviously the J'H had analyzed the
> anti-proton scan.
> SHields were obviously down, since you can't have them raised and
> still be cloaked. Weapons were off line. I'll have to watch it
> again.
Sisko should of been ready. It wasn't the first time
he was scanned at close range by the jem'hedar. Yes, the
shields were down, but Sisko's first orders to weapons were
not "energize phasers" but "lock weapons", indicative that
he at least had the weapons armed.
>
>>It really looked more like the Defiant got really lucky.
>>She surprised the three jem'hedars chasing Odo (hooray!)
>>and for the most part magically dodged the second jem'hedar
>>group's poleron fire to plow through two. Considering that the
>>jem'hedar didn't practice the same tactics on the Defiant
>>that were used in the Search, the Defiant was very fortunate.
>
> Defiant was still able to provide assistance. They were still
> outnumbered. THey were just prepared this time. If the J'h \
> were looking for a cloak, then they would have been ambushed.
> Defiant got hit a few times, and dodged the rest.
> Impressive little ship.
It was the "dodging" part that was unfortunate. If she
took those hits and then did the same thing, well, that's
more impressive. The writers by this show are setting
a new "paradigm shift" towards Wing Commander and Star Wars
combat, IMO. It maybe dramatic, but in Star Trek, it's
lousy writing.
>
>>Not to mention, the Defiant wasn't the main objective for
>>the jem'hedar anyway.
>
> Agreed.
>
>>It would have helped the Romulans if there wasn't a changling
>>in their midst. The jem'hedar knew exzctly where to shoot,
>>picking out the bottom of the Warbird as the first to
>>hit (where there power core is, if I remember that
>>phased Geordi and Ro episode right). The initial moments had
>>three of the Warbirds' power grids knocked out. Not their
>>warp drives, but the power grids. The jem'hedar knew exactly
>>what they were doing and what to hit. The Big-O faired much
>>better in this respect because the jem'hedar knew to shoot
>>at what looked like the warp drive, but was unable to knock
>>out the Big-O's power grid.
>
> Still, if they didn't know where to hit, then they would have
> used the same tactics used on Odyssey. Slam their warp nacelles.
> That way, they would have no way of moving.
To be more precise, nail their warp nacelles to keep them
from going to warp, bu their impulse drives would still
be there. They would have to maneuver at sublight at
an extreme disadvantage.
>
>>> The Federation definitely isn't up tho that level of fighting,
>>> but it's still a step ahead of the Romulans, Cardassians, and
>>> Klingons with the Defiant.
>>Well, you're probably going to get your wish since the writers
>>are leaning torwards small Wing Commander-style ships.
>
> Hee hee hee hee hee...
> THis would look great on the big screen, huh? ST8?
Yeah. Star Wars 8: "Fireflies".
>
>
>> B) What if there was no inside man? Would the Founders have
>> been caught of guard and wiped out, only to have the
>> Jem'Hedar in a cry of vengeance try and battle the
>> fleet? Maybe only a few of the ships (the more hardier
>> and better commanded ones) could make it back.
>
> Probably not. There would have been severe damage to the planet,
> but otherwise, the J'H would be called in, and that would be the
> end of the fleet. It may take longer to destroy them, but the
> fleet would be gone.
I meant, what would happen if Tain's plan really worked, no
infiltrator was present and he really did wipe out the Founders?
SUre the fleet might not make it back, but could the
jem'hhedars die out?
>
>>From what the original poster is saying, the Defiant's advantage
>>is from her enchanced weaponry (I think that's what he said),
>>if so, then what other possibly advantage could you give
>>the Big-O and still deny her the advanced weaponry? It
>>would be humorous to see the Big-O (as big as it is) zipping
>>about space like the Defiant and magically dodge poleron
>>bolts.
>
> Odyssey has no advantage. Unless Starfleet rquips it with the
> enhanced phasers, galaxy class is less powerful.
>
I would argue that unless Starfleet re-equips them with
good combat crews and captains, all of Starfleet is
in deep troubled waters.
(I would even wager that Kirk in his old "antiquated"
Big-E (any model 1701 or 1701-A) could do better than any
ship in the Alpha quadrant against the Jem'hedar
at the given rate the writers are making TNG officers to
be.)
Jason C Fleshman
Jason
Bryan Keller
>==========John P. Raynor, 5/8/95==========
>
>Lord of Moria (yc...@uceng.uc.edu) wrote:
>: Good points there. One rumor I heard is that Berman said he's going to
>: change the idea of big is better in the TNG era. As we have seen,
>several
>: new class ships in the Federation are considerably smaller than we have
>: used to see. Such new ships include Runabout, Intrepid, and Escort class
>: ships. The Jem'hadar ships and Defiant use an attack style similiar to
>: that of Star War, smaller ships swarm a big ship. Their shields are
>: weak(relative to the BIG ones) but are overarmed and more manueverable.
>: For all we know, the BIG-E-E might also be smaller than its predessor.
>: Besides, why build a huge ship which can be destroyed by 3 smaller ships
>: when you can build three smaller ships which can take a Jem'Hadar ship
>: one-to-one.
>
>with depicting "space battle" scenes has changed? If it has become
>cheaper and easier to put a lot of ships on the screen at the same time,
>this might have something to do with this rumored shift towards
>smaller "fighters", and more complicated "dogfight" battles. Somebody
>also might have pointed out tha just making the NEXT starship EVEN BIGGER
>is unlikely to really impress anyone AGAIN. Perhaps I'm being too
>cynical.
>
>
Could be. Special effects have gotten better and more spectacular since the
incorporation of the computer since the orginal Star Wars Movie. I saw a
program on the Discovery Channel that discussed the advancements in this area.
Some of the scenes done in Return of the Jedi could not have been done when
Star Wars was made - specifically the final battle between the Rebels and the
Empire. I believe today they film the model, then use a computer to put in
background and movement. I would expect that this method is cheaper than the
old way of film, move the model, film, move the model.
Just a thought
Bryan Keller
Messaging Products and Systems Center
AT&T Global Information Solutions - San Diego Campus
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <3oltm4$a...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Joseph B Ferreira <jbf> writes:
>It may have had more than one tube, although it looks like only one. It does,
>however, have several phaser banks which can fire to the rear.
TEch manual says one.
True about the phasers.
>Really? The Dominion used a new form of weapon, and the same strafing pattern
>(in most respects) they employed against both the Odyssey and the Defiant. How
>did Sisko suddenly learn their tactics?
New weapons? Don't think so.
>Yes, poor shields. The Defiant walloped a Cardassian vessel with 6 or so
>phaser hits, and it was damaged, not even disabled. The Defiant his the
>Jem'Hadar with 4-6 phaser hits and it was destroyed. Not disabled, destroyed.
>I'm sure you know by now what respect I hold the Cardassian vessels in, so the
>Jem'Hadar MUST have poor shields.
J'H have smaller mass so the energy isn't fully absorbed.
DEstruction is easy.
>And, as I (and others) have pointed out several times, the Odyssey NEVER
>subjected the J'H to "full" phasers. Nowhere near it.
That's absurd. Why would a ship in battle not use full phasers?
Ridiculous.
>Ridiculous. If the Defiant's phasers are twice as powerful as those on a
>Galaxy, then if the Odyssey had fired both the nacelle banks at one Jem'Hadar
>for a full second and a half, the J'H vessel would have been destroyed...
>If the Odyssey had done 'nothing' as you keep saying, then Defiant would do
>"twice nothing," yet it obviously doesn't.
Defiant's phasers are DOUBLE the power. Whether they're double
Galaxy's is a major assumption. Consider the fact that Galaxy
class couldn't do shit to the J'H, my statement about double
Galaxy class phasers is the one I will stand by.
>Please, no more of this "sufficient space" for Photon Torpedoes: in Star Treks
>II, VI, and VII the respective Enterprise takes a Photon Torpedo hit to its
>UNSHIELDED HULL. You CANNOT get any closer than that! If the Odyssey were
>able to take the J'H by surprise (and had a decent Captain!), it could easily
>load the Photons for full yield, and fire 10 or so in the general direction of
>the J'H. If Photon proximity effects are so ungodly powerful as people keep
>implying this would clear out a swath of J'H vessels (and they could NOT dodge
>the torpedoes). This combined with a real phaser alpha strike (ie. something
>like "Continual fire, all phasers!" in "Yesterday's Enterprise" or "Full fire,
>all weapons!" in BoBW) would get the Odyssey past the Jem'Hadar just as easly
>as the Defiant did. I grant you, the Odyssey would take far more hits, but
>then it wouldn't have to wait until 500 meters either...
Star Trek II, Enterprise was hit by photons? CAn't remember.
I remember it being grazed by one. A photon blows through
saucer section in ST6.
PHOTONS CANNOT BE DETONATED IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE SHIP.
Photons are useless against highly maneuverable ships like the
J'H.
Defiant waited until 500 meters so the J'H would have a chance to break
formation and regroup.
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <9MAY1995...@jane.uh.edu> st...@jane.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>
>To beg the question, but where is the justification that
>photorps cannot track fast moving targets like the jem'hedar?
Photons can't track, unless their programmed to. Photons can be
launched from the forward tube, but the J'H can easily dodge
them. That's what I meant by photons not being effective.
If the J'H can scatter and regroup during phaser fire, they
can surely do it with photons, unless photons were prematurely
detonated to hopeully cause some damage...
>That's assuming that your assertion that photorps cannot track
>fast moving targets is true. The jem'hedar do not do be
>any more maneuverable than a klingon bird o'prey. (But,
>then again, BOPs don't have phased polaron beams).
Yes...the J'H are highly maneuverable. The smaller the ship,
the more evasive it gets.
>To be more precise, nail their warp nacelles to keep them
>from going to warp, bu their impulse drives would still
>be there. They would have to maneuver at sublight at
>an extreme disadvantage.
True.
>> Hee hee hee hee hee...
>> THis would look great on the big screen, huh? ST8?
>Yeah. Star Wars 8: "Fireflies".
You're funny.
>I meant, what would happen if Tain's plan really worked, no
>infiltrator was present and he really did wipe out the Founders?
>SUre the fleet might not make it back, but could the
>jem'hhedars die out?
That's a good possibility, but after the 1st volley of of
disruptors and torpedoes, 30% of the crust was destroyed.
I'm sure that the Founders have back up suppliers for that
drug the J'H need. Maybe not. Who knows. We'll see
in future episodes
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <3orrir$4...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Joseph B Ferreira <jbf> writes:
>> New weapons? Don't think so.
>>
>effect (the pale blue 'balls' which were fired in rapid sequeqnce). I
>therefore assume they wanted to use a different weapon here (bright blue
>'beams' which are held on for a fraction of a second or so). This easily
>accounts for the usefulness of Defiant's (and the Runabout's) shields, whereas
>the alternative suggests that the Feds made a breakthrough in analyzing the J'H
>weapons without even mentioning it (let's face it. Star Fleet R&D has never
>been modest....).
Blue balls? When we first saw the J'H fire upon odyssey, they were
using beams not "balls." The J'H aft weaponry uses the balls.
I think the Feds just found a way to modulate the shields to be
modestly effective against the J'H phased polaron beams.
About the J'H shields. Obviously they can't stand to Defiant
style firepower, but their good enough to withstand Galaxy class
firepower. Let's face it. For a small ships like that to
withstand something like Galaxy class firepower, it's gotta be
good. Defiant, with it's enhanced phasers provide sufficient
power to destroy the J'H. Poor shields? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe
the hull can't absorb the amount of power the Defiant produces.
Who knows.
>Seriously, I can't begin to count the times since TNG that the ship has barely
>returned fire in the face of a heavy attack ("Reunification I," "Rascals (?)"
>and "Generations" are amongst the worst moments...)
Reunification 1? Which part was that?
>The E took 1 (possibly not full-yield) torp hit in TWoK, and maybe another one
>in the nebula. Reliant DID get hit by at least one, and easily survived (if in
>BAD shape).
Reliant got hit by at least 3. One on the torpedo launcher, and
2 on the starboard nacelle, I think.
>A Photon Torpedo is a warp engine with a MASSIVE warhead and optional guidance
>system. I see no reason why it couldn't target, track and intercept a J'H
>ship. I certainly see no reason why you think a Quantum Torpedo (whose
>maneuverability IS in question) could if the Photon couldn't.
I think that's what quantum torps are supposed to do.
Imagine a torpedo tracking a j'h ship. The j'h ship stays just
ahead of it to bring the torpedo back to the originator. Bod
move.
Photons can't track.
Joseph B Ferreira
BTW, to whoever asked, WSOGMM stands for "Whole Sort of General Mish-Mash," the
complex set possible outcomes one slice of which makes up this universe...
>>Really? The Dominion used a new form of weapon, and the same strafing pattern
>>(in most respects) they employed against both the Odyssey and the Defiant.
>>How did Sisko suddenly learn their tactics?
>
> New weapons? Don't think so.
>
Well, I don't see any reason why the DS9 SFX department couldn't use the old
effect (the pale blue 'balls' which were fired in rapid sequeqnce). I
therefore assume they wanted to use a different weapon here (bright blue
'beams' which are held on for a fraction of a second or so). This easily
accounts for the usefulness of Defiant's (and the Runabout's) shields, whereas
the alternative suggests that the Feds made a breakthrough in analyzing the J'H
weapons without even mentioning it (let's face it. Star Fleet R&D has never
been modest....).
>>Yes, poor shields. The Defiant walloped a Cardassian vessel with 6 or so
>>phaser hits, and it was damaged, not even disabled. The Defiant his the
>>Jem'Hadar with 4-6 phaser hits and it was destroyed. Not disabled, destroyed.
>>I'm sure you know by now what respect I hold the Cardassian vessels in, so the
>>Jem'Hadar MUST have poor shields.
>
> J'H have smaller mass so the energy isn't fully absorbed.
> DEstruction is easy.
>
EXACTLY!! They are poorly shielded and just can't take the punishment. Most
ships can pack a strong punch (for their size) and take a serious pounding
(dramatic use of Enterprise excepted...). The J'H pack a major punch, but
can't stand up to any serious firepower: ie. they're fighters!!
>>And, as I (and others) have pointed out several times, the Odyssey NEVER
>>subjected the J'H to "full" phasers. Nowhere near it.
>
> That's absurd. Why would a ship in battle not use full phasers?
> Ridiculous.
>
One word: Federation!
Seriously, I can't begin to count the times since TNG that the ship has barely
returned fire in the face of a heavy attack ("Reunification I," "Rascals (?)"
and "Generations" are amongst the worst moments...)
> Star Trek II, Enterprise was hit by photons? CAn't remember.
> I remember it being grazed by one. A photon blows through
> saucer section in ST6.
>
The E took 1 (possibly not full-yield) torp hit in TWoK, and maybe another one
in the nebula. Reliant DID get hit by at least one, and easily survived (if in
BAD shape).
> PHOTONS CANNOT BE DETONATED IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE SHIP.
If a Torp can HIT the ship (Generations, TWoK and UC) and not destroy it, there
is no reason (other than plot device) why a shielded ship can't use half-yield
torps at close range! Doing this would have driven off the J'H in "Jem'Hadar,"
since the proximity effect NEED NOT BE TARGETTED ON THE JEM'HADAR DIRECTLY!!!
Face it, the Odyssey's Captain lost that engagement, not the ship.
> Photons are useless against highly maneuverable ships like the
> J'H.
Canadian llamas are useless in Tibet.
Saying something does not make it so! :-)
A Photon Torpedo is a warp engine with a MASSIVE warhead and optional guidance
system. I see no reason why it couldn't target, track and intercept a J'H
ship. I certainly see no reason why you think a Quantum Torpedo (whose
maneuverability IS in question) could if the Photon couldn't.
> Defiant waited until 500 meters so the J'H would have a chance to break
> formation and regroup.
Maybe. But they were in roughly the same formation at 1000 metres too.
Perhaps the Defiant DOES have lousy range on its phasers. (THAT'S IT! The
Defiant mounts Gatling Phasers! IT'S A HYDRAN SHIP!!! :)
-Joey Ferreira
H.Flick
>WARNING: "The Die is Cast" primary Spoiler containment failure!
>
>DANGER! Spoiler breach!
>Alright, I've finally seen the dice, and would like to amend my previous
>statements on relative firepower.
Anti-logic compartment breach imminent!
Logic/Anti-logic reaction imminent!
Eject Message Core!
Damm it, who has the Command Authorization Codes?!
Where's Chakotay?!
H.Flick
>
>DANGER! Spoiler breach!
>Alright, I've finally seen the dice, and would like to amend my previous
>statements on relative firepower.
Chung, Peter W.
>
>In article <3oltm4$a...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Joseph B Ferreira <jbf> writes:
>
>>And, as I (and others) have pointed out several times, the Odyssey NEVER
>>subjected the J'H to "full" phasers. Nowhere near it.
>
> Ridiculous.
It's just as Ridiculous for a ship in battle to not use her
photorps too. Or howabout as ridiculous as dropping shields
in the middle of the battle.
>
>
> Star Trek II, Enterprise was hit by photons? CAn't remember.
> I remember it being grazed by one. A photon blows through
> saucer section in ST6.
> PHOTONS CANNOT BE DETONATED IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE SHIP.
Correct, sorta. Photons can be detonated either at a lower
yield or at full yield, but the shields MUST BE UP -> "Q-Who?"
> Photons are useless against highly maneuverable ships like the
> J'H.
There is absolutely no proof of this (yet, the season finale
may have some idiot writer give you the evidence necessary
to support you assertion.)
Chung, Peter W.
>>photorps cannot track fast moving targets like the jem'hedar?
>
No proof.
> launched from the forward tube, but the J'H can easily dodge
> them. That's what I meant by photons not being effective.
No proof again. We haven't seen photorps used yet, so
how could you say that the photorps could not track a
jam'hedar ship? And what's this thing about them able
to track only if programmed to? This would imply that
photorps can track but the idiot at tactical decided he
would trust to dumb luck and hope the Bad Guy(tm) flies
right into the torpedos. (Then again, the writers are
getting flaky, so I wouldn't put it past them.)
> If the J'H can scatter and regroup during phaser fire, they
> can surely do it with photons, unless photons were prematurely
> detonated to hopeully cause some damage...
Sure, as long as a Galaxy-class keeps giving the Bad Guy(tm)
"love-taps" with its phasers a group of BOP could scatter
and regroup under phaser fire.
>
>>That's assuming that your assertion that photorps cannot track
>>fast moving targets is true. The jem'hedar do not do be
>>any more maneuverable than a klingon bird o'prey. (But,
>>then again, BOPs don't have phased polaron beams).
>
> Yes...the J'H are highly maneuverable. The smaller the ship,
> the more evasive it gets.
At sublight, yes, I agree. But it should (okay, as far as
TDIC, *use to*) make no difference how much one maneuvers
to escape being hit, just to minimize damage. (On that
note, at least the Big-O NEVER missed with her "love-taps".)
>
>
>>I meant, what would happen if Tain's plan really worked, no
>>infiltrator was present and he really did wipe out the Founders?
>>SUre the fleet might not make it back, but could the
>>jem'hhedars die out?
>
> That's a good possibility, but after the 1st volley of of
> disruptors and torpedoes, 30% of the crust was destroyed.
> I'm sure that the Founders have back up suppliers for that
> drug the J'H need. Maybe not. Who knows. We'll see
> in future episodes
Personally, I think since the Founders knew what was happeneing
and already moved off that planet and will just rebuild when
they move back onto it again. Those handy fake sensor signals
were cool.
H.Flick
Defiant to be the main focus of the battle. The foucs was to
totally incapacitate the Obsidian Order and the Tal'Shiar Sects
of the Cardassians and the Romulans. There was minor damage to
Defiant's shields and some casualties on the bridge from what
was pictured.
The thing is that Defiant was ready foir battle. Also, Sisko
knew the tactics of the J'H and was prepared to deal with it
accordingly. <<
ships engaged the Defiant was because they were bored and had yet to fill
their minutes worth of death quota.
I still don't understand the advantage
for Sisko to wait and fire 500 meters to target. The Defiant fires like a
machine gun. It would seem best to fire and trace into the target. This
way, the target can't adjust into the line of fire.
Of course, there were
two more ships in formation which is probably why the Defiant was eventually
borded in The Search, so this time, Sisko choose the bowling ball tactic for
dealing with fighter groups in formation. It's amazing that the surviving
ship was able to turn around so fast as depicted in the graphics. I wonder
how many J'H warriors are in each fighter ship?
Bryan Derksen
<big snip>
: Personally, I think since the Founders knew what was happeneing
: and already moved off that planet and will just rebuild when
: they move back onto it again. Those handy fake sensor signals
: were cool.
I think the founders were even sneakier than that. I found it somewhat
unrealistic back in "the search" how the founders let knowledge of their
homeworld's location go so easily. They are so paranoid about their
secrecy and isolation that their existance had become mere ledgend in
the Gamma quadrant, and no one had the slightest idea what race the
founders were. Sure, "No changeling has ever harmed another", but that
doensn't mean they couldn't stop Odo and the rest from ever leaving.
Especially the others, whom they could have simply killed without fuss.
Now it makes sense to me. That was never the Founder's homeworld in the
first place, they had intended it to be a decoy from day one. Probably
they'd set it up when they first launched Odo and the other "probe"
changelings out into the universe decades ago. They were worried that when
the "probe" changelings were compelled to return, someone might follow them
and find out where they lived. So, they set them to home in on the decoy
planet, where they would be met by a Founder outpost and relayed to the
real homeworld once they made sure no one was following.
So, when the Defiant found the decoy homeworld by following Odo's homing
instinct, the Founders realized that they could turn this into a trap and
let the Defiant go with the knowledge, after putting up a strong enough
show of reluctance to make sure the Federation fell for it. The real
homeworld could still be anywhere in the Dominion, we're back at square
one and nothing to show for our efforts but a destroyed
Romulan/Cardassian fleet. wow, these guys are good.
--
Bryan Derksen (bder...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) .sig under construction
Daniel J. Peacock
In a previous article, c...@spu.edu ("H.Flick") says:
>I still don't understand the advantage
>for Sisko to wait and fire 500 meters to target. The Defiant fires like a
>machine gun. It would seem best to fire and trace into the target. This
>way, the target can't adjust into the line of fire.
>
>Of course, there were
>two more ships in formation which is probably why the Defiant was eventually
>borded in The Search, so this time, Sisko choose the bowling ball tactic for
>dealing with fighter groups in formation. It's amazing that the surviving
>ship was able to turn around so fast as depicted in the graphics. I wonder
>how many J'H warriors are in each fighter ship?
>
I watched this episode again today. I thought I saw TWO Jem Haddar (someone
correct my spelling of this please) get BBQed, the one the Defiant was tracking
and the other from....uh....collateral damage. Someone with a good VCR
please check this. So the "bowling ball" tactic seems to be valid. What it
could be is that the J'H fly in close formation for concentrated fire.
Compare this with the bomber formations of WWII (for protection rather than
concentration of fire...well, yeah I guess it could be considered concentraion
of fire.) Unfortunately, when they got to their targets, the close formations
were a liability when facing flak. The same thing happend to the J'H. Sisko
held his fire so that the J'H wouldn't break formation, and be vulnerable to
this kind of attack. Good tactics.
--
* Dan Peacock * Sir, I must protest! I am
* ai...@detroit.freenet.org * NOT a merry man!
* 71045...@compuserve.com * -Lt. Worf, Q-Who
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <12MAY199...@elroy.uh.edu> st...@elroy.uh.edu (Chung, Peter W.) writes:
>> That's absurd. Why would a ship in battle not use full phasers?
>> Ridiculous.
>
>It's just as Ridiculous for a ship in battle to not use her
>photorps too. Or howabout as ridiculous as dropping shields
>in the middle of the battle.
AAcckk...
Oh boy...photons can't be used at close range -- especially with
Runabou; "running about."
Dropping shields? Why not? If you're in battle and the shields
were useless anyways, why not drop them to increase power to phasers.
(like it had any efefect anyways.) Why couldn't they raise the
shields once they saw the kamikazee attack coming? Dumb captain.
>> Star Trek II, Enterprise was hit by photons? CAn't remember.
>> I remember it being grazed by one. A photon blows through
>> saucer section in ST6.
>> PHOTONS CANNOT BE DETONATED IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE SHIP.
>Correct, sorta. Photons can be detonated either at a lower
>yield or at full yield, but the shields MUST BE UP -> "Q-Who?"
Yeah, I know. A "photon detonation at close range can destroy
a ship." I know. I know. I'm the one who first said that,
remember? Lower yield? Now why do that in battle? You want
to destroy the ship. Now why couldn't Odyssey fire torpedoes while
shields were up? Probably the Runabouts. Why could they fire
once shileds were down? Because shields were down. Besides, in
"the nth Degree," (TNG) it's stated that the 1701-D had 300% more
shield power why Barklay rerouted the shields through the warp
drive. That was the only way the ship withstood the phtono detonation.
>> Photons are useless against highly maneuverable ships like the
>> J'H.
>There is absolutely no proof of this (yet, the season finale
>may have some idiot writer give you the evidence necessary
>to support you assertion.)
I know...but the way my luck is going...there will be proof... :)
Remember the "aft torpedo" thread?
I guess Paramount really likes me... :P
Bryan E. Esquire
No proof that torpedoes can't track unless programmed? Star Trek
6.
>No proof again. We haven't seen photorps used yet, so
>how could you say that the photorps could not track a
>jam'hedar ship? And what's this thing about them able
>to track only if programmed to? This would imply that
>photorps can track but the idiot at tactical decided he
>would trust to dumb luck and hope the Bad Guy(tm) flies
>right into the torpedos. (Then again, the writers are
>getting flaky, so I wouldn't put it past them.)
I'm saying that if you have launch the max torpedoes at one time,
which I believe to be 10, the J'H can see the torps and easily more
out of the way. I know, I'm assuming, but this does have somewhat
of a ring of truth. Photons can track only when programmed to.
Refer to ST6. In Yesterday's Enterprise, we see set programmed
dispersal patterns, (Dispersal Pattern Sierra).
>Sure, as long as a Galaxy-class keeps giving the Bad Guy(tm)
>"love-taps" with its phasers a group of BOP could scatter
>and regroup under phaser fire.
BOP's are to large. J'H ships are small fighters.
>> Yes...the J'H are highly maneuverable. The smaller the ship,
>> the more evasive it gets.
>
>At sublight, yes, I agree. But it should (okay, as far as
>TDIC, *use to*) make no difference how much one maneuvers
>to escape being hit, just to minimize damage. (On that
>note, at least the Big-O NEVER missed with her "love-taps".)
But it did make a difference. What if the Defiant didn't
maneuver away from the J'H phased polaron beams? Would it be
disabled? Maybe. Maneuvering helps.
>> That's a good possibility, but after the 1st volley of of
>> disruptors and torpedoes, 30% of the crust was destroyed.
>> I'm sure that the Founders have back up suppliers for that
>> drug the J'H need. Maybe not. Who knows. We'll see
>> in future episodes
>
>Personally, I think since the Founders knew what was happeneing
>and already moved off that planet and will just rebuild when
>they move back onto it again. Those handy fake sensor signals
>were cool.
I think that's what happened too. The fake transponders were
cool.
H.Flick
>The same thing happend to the J'H. Sisko
>held his fire so that the J'H wouldn't break formation, and be vulnerable to
>this kind of attack. Good tactics.
just as they are about to face the bull in battle. I believe it was Dax who
asked '500 meters?... We're going to get a little cook.' (paraphrased) Now
she wouldn't have said this if she didn't believe there is a risk to the
shields failing or some other travesty (she is much older than Sisko). Of
course they fly through without even a scratch. It was more believable in
'The Defiant' when they attacked the Card base and (tho unseen) suffered
about six hits (with minimal damage). On the other hand, in TNG, it seemed
that everytime the E engages with an enemy, all they do is count down the
damage reports until total shield failure. I wonder if the writers now believe
that damage reports are a waste of time and the viewers are too assume that
minimal damage occured?
Andy
: Does anybody know whether the price for the special effects associated
: with depicting "space battle" scenes has changed? If it has become
: cheaper and easier to put a lot of ships on the screen at the same time,
: this might have something to do with this rumored shift towards
: smaller "fighters", and more complicated "dogfight" battles. Somebody
: also might have pointed out tha just making the NEXT starship EVEN BIGGER
: is unlikely to really impress anyone AGAIN. Perhaps I'm being too cynical.
Well, given the fact that DS9 at least, to my knowledge, has started
using the same style of computer generated graphics for some of the shots
as seen all the time in Babylon 5, which has had several dogfight battles
on a budget which is I suspect only a fraction of that for Star Trek, I'd
say there's a very good chance that more dogfights could appear on Trek.
Only snag is, we're used to models on Trek; Babylon 5's OK because it's
always used CGI, but will people like a transition from models to CGI for
Trek? Would CGI look like the models? Things to ponder...
--
`Have you ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?': Jack Napier
Andy Thomas, a.k.a. A.G.T...@durham.ac.uk
John Price
: John P. Raynor (jra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) spoo'd this forth:
VOYAGER is supposed to be computer generated....
--
Just in case you mistake me for someone official, having an official opinion:
I'm not, and I don't.
--- --- --- ---
the Muave-with-just-a-hint-of-grey ranger
"Brontosaurus Doppleganger Thunderzord Power!"
Seth Dilday
>Andy (A.G.T...@durham.ac.uk) wrote:
>: John P. Raynor (jra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) spoo'd this forth:
>: Well, given the fact that DS9 at least, to my knowledge, has started
>: using the same style of computer generated graphics for some of the shots
>: as seen all the time in Babylon 5, which has had several dogfight battles
>: on a budget which is I suspect only a fraction of that for Star Trek, I'd
>: say there's a very good chance that more dogfights could appear on Trek.
>: Only snag is, we're used to models on Trek; Babylon 5's OK because it's
>: always used CGI, but will people like a transition from models to CGI for
>: Trek? Would CGI look like the models? Things to ponder...
>
>VOYAGER is supposed to be computer generated....
>
The Nexus sequence with the E-B in Generations was CGI. So were several other
scences in Generations (although I forget what, it was in the novelization)
--
- J. Seth Dilday (Me) se...@aplus.com
"Who am I to argue with me?" - Dr. Julian Bashir
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <3q57l2$6...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> jpr...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (John Price) writes:
>
>VOYAGER is supposed to be computer generated....
>
That's impossible. The close up shots of Voayger are clearly done
through models. There are certainly some areas in the opening
titles where it's plainly obvious that the ship was rendered, but
that's about it. IF Voyager is in fact fully rendered, then the
show has a "Jurassic Park"-sized budget.
Enterprise-D had rendered windows and running lights towards
the end of the series, from what I understand.
Paul Neve
>jpr...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (John Price) wrote:
>>Andy (A.G.T...@durham.ac.uk) wrote:
>>: John P. Raynor (jra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) spoo'd this forth:
>>: Well, given the fact that DS9 at least, to my knowledge, has started
>>: using the same style of computer generated graphics for some of the shots
>>: as seen all the time in Babylon 5, which has had several dogfight battles
>>: on a budget which is I suspect only a fraction of that for Star Trek, I'd
>>: say there's a very good chance that more dogfights could appear on Trek.
>>: Only snag is, we're used to models on Trek; Babylon 5's OK because it's
>>: always used CGI, but will people like a transition from models to CGI for
>>: Trek? Would CGI look like the models? Things to ponder...
>>
>>VOYAGER is supposed to be computer generated....
>>
> The Nexus sequence with the E-B in Generations was CGI. So were several other
>scences in Generations (although I forget what, it was in the novelization)
Apparently the USS Pasteur in All Good Things was CGI too. I must
admit, until someone mentioned it to me, I never noticed (which is
surely a good thing). The thing about Babylon 5 is that the computer
graphics are obviously just that - computer graphics. GOOD computer
graphics nonetheless, but still blatantly rendered. It was one of the
reasons I gave up on B5 - the other was because of the pitiful plots
they had in the first season. If the scene with the E-B was CGI, then
it was bloody incredible, and they can use CGI as much as they like
in Voyager. Not that I've SEEN Voyager yet - anyone got any tapes in
PAL format they want to lend me?
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Thad Bissett
: jpr...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (John Price) wrote:
: >Andy (A.G.T...@durham.ac.uk) wrote:
: >: John P. Raynor (jra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) spoo'd this forth:
: >: Well, given the fact that DS9 at least, to my knowledge, has started
: >: using the same style of computer generated graphics for some of the shots
: >: as seen all the time in Babylon 5, which has had several dogfight battles
: >: on a budget which is I suspect only a fraction of that for Star Trek, I'd
: >: say there's a very good chance that more dogfights could appear on Trek.
: >: Only snag is, we're used to models on Trek; Babylon 5's OK because it's
: >: always used CGI, but will people like a transition from models to CGI for
: >: Trek? Would CGI look like the models? Things to ponder...
: >
: >VOYAGER is supposed to be computer generated....
: >
Computer generated would be great, but the only problem is that
the CGI shots look too clean and glass-like. There's no real three
dimensional look because the technology hasn't evolved to the point where
it's cheap enough for weekly series to use on a regular basis. (That
little point was thrown in there to appease all of the Jurassic Park
watchers, who will say that the dinosaurs looked real enough.) B5 really
sucks for that reason. If ST wants to try it, it's fine with me, but I
like the old model look better until cheaper, more realistic technology
comes along.
Kuo-Sheng (Kasey) Chang
: Seth Dilday <se...@aplus.com> wrote:
: >jpr...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (John Price) wrote:
: >>Andy (A.G.T...@durham.ac.uk) wrote:
: >>: John P. Raynor (jra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) spoo'd this forth:
:>>:Well, given the fact that DS9 at least, to my knowledge, has started
:>>:using the same style of computer generated graphics for some of the shots
Only for that Solar Boat thing.
: >>: as seen all the time in Babylon 5, which has had several dogfight
: battles : >>: on a budget which is I suspect only a fraction of that for
: Star Trek, I'd : >>: say there's a very good chance that more dogfights
: could appear on Trek.
Yeah, but keep in mind that B5 still looks a little too clear, IMHO of
course. Compare the fight sequence in DS9:"The Maquis" and a B5 episode
and you can easily tell who used CGI and who used models.
: >>: Only snag is, we're used to models on Trek; Babylon 5's OK because
: it's : >>: always used CGI, but will people like a transition from models
: to CGI for : >>: Trek? Would CGI look like the models? Things to
: ponder...
CGI will one day look like real models.
B5 was CGI because they didn't have the tens of thousands of dollars to
build the station at the time, and the FX guru decided to try this Amiga
he got, and whipped up the station in a few hours, thus saving the series
that much money. JMS loved it and kept it every since.
: >>VOYAGER is supposed to be computer generated....
No way. Voyager model is too detailed to be computer generated. It's a
real model.
: > The Nexus sequence with the E-B in Generations was CGI. So were
: several other : >scences in Generations (although I forget what, it was in
: the novelization)
Nexus sequence can be anything... Any one remember how they did that
plasma storm in DS9:"Invasive Procedures", in which another Trill was
there to steal Dax's symbiont? It was all in the book.
: Apparently the USS Pasteur in All Good Things was CGI too. I must
: admit, until someone mentioned it to me, I never noticed (which is
: surely a good thing).
I don't think so! Looks like a model to me!
: The thing about Babylon 5 is that the computer
: graphics are obviously just that - computer graphics. GOOD computer
: graphics nonetheless, but still blatantly rendered. It was one of the
: reasons I gave up on B5 - the other was because of the pitiful plots
: they had in the first season. If the scene with the E-B was CGI, then
: it was bloody incredible, and they can use CGI as much as they like
: in Voyager. Not that I've SEEN Voyager yet - anyone got any tapes in
: PAL format they want to lend me?
You may be surprised what kind of graphics they use now... And the plots
are only getting better. :-)
--
+==========================================================================+
| Kasey K. S. Chang (a guy) Good Paradox for Windows Programmer |
| ksc...@sfsu.edu ks...@aol.com Self-proclaimed Treknology Expert |
| http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~kschang X-COM Guru General PC expert |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Editor of XCOM and XCOM2 UN-official Strategy Guide -- FREE! (See URL) |
+==========================================================================+
BP SMITH
: : battles : >>: on a budget which is I suspect only a fraction of that for
: : Star Trek, I'd : >>: say there's a very good chance that more dogfights
: : could appear on Trek.
Babylon 5 has a budget of around half that of Trek.
: Yeah, but keep in mind that B5 still looks a little too clear, IMHO of
: course. Compare the fight sequence in DS9:"The Maquis" and a B5 episode
: and you can easily tell who used CGI and who used models.
Ah yes, but with CGI you get 20 shots of the battle instead of 5.
: CGI will one day look like real models.
Why make CGI look like models? Better to make it look like the reality of
space. Models arn't as perfect as amny people beleive.
: : >>VOYAGER is supposed to be computer generated....
: No way. Voyager model is too detailed to be computer generated. It's a
: real model.
Voyager is CGI for most of the long shots and whenever they go into warp.
A model is used for closeups. Frankly this is very expensive and rather
silly thing to do. I would prefer to them to use CGI excluisivly.
: You may be surprised what kind of graphics they use now... And the plots
: are only getting better. :-)
Two words. Cheese. Contamination.
____________________________________________________________________________
Benjamin Smith
University of Bradford, "Strike me down and I shall become more
England powerful than you can possibly imagine"
----------------------------------------------------------Obi-Wan-Kenobi-----
James M. Sampers
>
>Paul Neve (lo...@itf.org.uk) wrote:
>
>: The thing about Babylon 5 is that the computer
>: graphics are obviously just that - computer graphics. GOOD computer
>: graphics nonetheless, but still blatantly rendered. It was one of the
>: reasons I gave up on B5 - the other was because of the pitiful plots
>: they had in the first season. If the scene with the E-B was CGI, then
>: it was bloody incredible, and they can use CGI as much as they like
>: in Voyager. Not that I've SEEN Voyager yet - anyone got any tapes in
>: PAL format they want to lend me?
Have you heard of those glasses that you can use for viewing 3-D effects
on a TV? (I'm not talking about regular 3-D glasses, I think, because
the lenses on these look different.) They're used mostly for kids'
cartoons and other programs like that (not to mention that they look just
as cheap and stupid to wear as always). Anyways, I was told that they
worked with most computer generated graphics as well. So I tried them
with B5. They actually did work! Most of the normal scenes look just as
they did before, but the space scenes seemed to pop right out of the set.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|James M. Sampers | "The future, whatever else it may be, is always |
|sam...@norand.com | infintely, flagrantly, more peculiarly strange than|
|(mic...@iastate.edu) | the products of our imagination." - William Gibson |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timo S Saloniemi
>Seth Dilday <se...@aplus.com> wrote:
>>jpr...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (John Price) wrote:
>>>Andy (A.G.T...@durham.ac.uk) wrote:
>> other scences in Generations (although I forget what, it was in the
>> novelization)
>Apparently the USS Pasteur in All Good Things was CGI too. I must
>admit, until someone mentioned it to me, I never noticed (which is
>surely a good thing).
Actually, it was a model, built by one of the employees at his
leisure time. But many of the windows/warpglow/phasers have been
CGI-boosted in late TNG, undoubtedly in AGT, too.
>The thing about Babylon 5 is that the computer
>graphics are obviously just that - computer graphics. GOOD computer
>graphics nonetheless, but still blatantly rendered.
But they do look more real than ST model shots. The problem is
that "Real" very seldom looks "Realistic" enough. And the detail is
superior to ST models. Of course, what I really like is the freedom of
motion in CGI, but that's just me.
>It was one of the
>reasons I gave up on B5 - the other was because of the pitiful plots
>they had in the first season. If the scene with the E-B was CGI, then
>it was bloody incredible, and they can use CGI as much as they like
>in Voyager. Not that I've SEEN Voyager yet - anyone got any tapes in
>PAL format they want to lend me?
USS Voyager is done with models, too. But if the thing can really land,
and if they want to make a set with a landed Voyager and people
walking in front of it, they have to go big-time CGI. B5's "virtual
sets" are very good and a lot cheaper than building actual starships.
Timo Saloniemi
.sigless and proud of it!