Why the ruckus about a Black Vulcan?
Patrick Kevin Williams
plain and simple. There are many people who just cannot fathom
the idea of a character who is intellectually as well as physically
superior being portrayed by a BLACK MAN. CASE CLOSED!!!!!
I have been an avid fan of Star Trek for many years and frankly,
I am glad to see this. I was glad to see Avery Brooks in ST:DS9
as well.
Face it folks! Star trek is/was to take place in the future. Maybe
prejudice has lessened considerably by then.
Patrick
pwil...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu
--
est...@delphi.com
>Why the ruckus about a black man portraying a vulcan? Racism
>plain and simple. There are many people who just cannot fathom
>the idea of a character who is intellectually as well as physically
>superior being portrayed by a BLACK MAN. CASE CLOSED!!!!!
The casting of a black man to portray a Vulcan is not something that's going to
keep me up at night, however... objection to it is not NECESSARILY racism.
It may simply be that many viewers ALREADY object to how, uh, similar the alien
races on Star Trek are to Earth humans.
Now, we are to believe that Vulcans also mirror Earth in that they have two
rnearly identical races? (Besides, wasn't Spock kinda green, not white?)
And... while I'm thinking about it, how come we haven't ever seen any black
Vulcans before (or do we call them Afro-American Vulcans, I'm confused)? There
were plenty of scenes on Vulcan, like Spock's resurrection.
Are Sarek and Amanda members of some bigoted country club or something? Why do
they have NO black friends? All the ranking Vulcans to date have been white (or
greenish)... do they discriminate?
Boy... talk about ILLOGICAL.
I am writing this with tongue in cheek, not necessarily because I agree with
all of this, but because I dispute the above author claiming authority to
proclaim: CASE CLOSED!
It certainly is subject to debate.
Benjamin Hsu
pwil...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (Patrick Kevin Williams) writes:
> Why the ruckus about a black man portraying a vulcan? Racism
> plain and simple. There are many people who just cannot fathom
> the idea of a character who is intellectually as well as physically
> superior being portrayed by a BLACK MAN. CASE CLOSED!!!!!
>
[sarcasm mode on]
One must realize that the discussion of racism and other -isms in the
future is fundamental to the rasc and rasm newsgroups.
>
> Face it folks! Star trek is/was to take place in the future. Maybe
> prejudice has lessened considerably by then.
>
Somebody supply a quote from "Let that be your final battlefield"
please.
At your service,
Ben Hsu
~~~~~~~~Ben...@CMU.edu~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Finger for more information~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Live Long, Prosper, and Play DOOM!!!!!"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter P. Benac
: Patrick Kevin Williams <pwil...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> writes:
: they have NO black friends? All the ranking Vulcans to date have been white (or
: greenish)... do they discriminate?
to coin a phrase wrong-o-bucko
The TNG episode where starfleet personnel were being controled by then
little creatures. The Henry Darrow played the role of a Start Fleet Admiral
Last I knew he was Hispanic and a ranking Vulcan.
Skin pigment on this planet does not distingush a species. It is simply
the biological differences of the same species. As medicial science would tell
you skin pigment protects man from the effect of the sun. The sun's angle and
relativly low vegatation of the Africa caused a darker skin pigment.
The Aborigies (sp?) of Austrialia are also very dark. The Northren and
Southren American Indians are dark but vegatation was available. The story
goes on. Who says this effect is only found on mother earth. From all
the canon stuff I find it more ridiculous that Spock is white. His planet
is harse, hot and closer to it's Sun than Earth is to Sol. It is barren
of larges areas of Vegatation (Amok Time, ST:TMP, ST:TSS, ST:TVH), so why
wouldn't there be black Vulcans. Before you say it. The only time we saw
Romulus was in Unification, so who's to say there aren't black Romulans.
I guess it could be argued that instead of Black he should be a very dark
green. This is why I said at least make him greenish black.
I wish however that they make him a greenish brown.
Just for the record. I am white.
Please refrain from using words like racism and Star Trek in the same
breath. It was not a part of Roddenbury's dream and it shouldn't be part of
ours. Least we forget, remember Uhura and Sulu...
Qapla'
HuDmey nagh
Judge at Biko Trial: Why do you folks call yourself black, your actually brown
Steven Biko: I don't know, Why do you call yourself white, your actually pink
To Die with honor is glorious. Do not die without it...
k...@nevada.edu
: Why the ruckus about a black man portraying a vulcan? Racism
: Patrick
Hang on a minute, Patrick.
For you to say that all the buzz about a black Vulcan character is caused
solely by prejudice/racism, is unfair and being simplistic.
I would guess the majority of the fans who are talking about this are doing
so, mainly because it is so unusual. Let's face it, for the last 20+ years
all we've seen is one color of Vulcan. We've come to assume (incorrectly)
that all Vulcans have the same color of pigmentation. Now, we see a black
Vulcan. Of course, people are going to talk. At least for a while, until
everyone is used to the idea.
I don't think that makes everyone a racist. If that were true, I would
imagine that people would have thrown a fit when they learned that Worf was
going to be played by Michael Dorn.
I don't think this is generating anymore talk than if we were to see a red
Andorian. Just because we may talk about it, doesn't make us all racist.
Don't be so quick to scream out RACISM. It's not true, and it generates a
lot of needless hostility.
-Scott
Robert M. Wright III
>k...@nevada.edu wrote:
>: Patrick Kevin Williams (pwil...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote:
>: : Why the ruckus about a black man portraying a vulcan? Racism
>: : plain and simple. There are many people who just cannot fathom
>: : the idea of a character who is intellectually as well as physically
>: : superior being portrayed by a BLACK MAN. CASE CLOSED!!!!!
>
>: all we've seen is one color of Vulcan. We've come to assume (incorrectly)
>: that all Vulcans have the same color of pigmentation. Now, we see a black
>
>
My question is "Why is he black?" I mean this from the point of view
that yes, all the vulcan's we have seen are white. I like to think
he is some sort of reverse albino (too much pigment vs none). Or is
he just from another area of vulcan (ie. the polar caps?")
Anyone have an answer?
Later
Rob.
ps. This post is not to be an insult to anyone
--
Fozzzie Bear is the best muppet ever | Robert M Wright III
| mur...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
"Be Alert -- the world needs more lert's" - A. Johnson
David M. Sueme
: Patrick Kevin Williams (pwil...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote:
: : Why the ruckus about a black man portraying a vulcan? Racism
: : plain and simple. There are many people who just cannot fathom
: : the idea of a character who is intellectually as well as physically
: : superior being portrayed by a BLACK MAN. CASE CLOSED!!!!!
: so, mainly because it is so unusual. Let's face it, for the last 20+ years
: all we've seen is one color of Vulcan. We've come to assume (incorrectly)
: that all Vulcans have the same color of pigmentation. Now, we see a black
I don't like it because it is trite.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
David M. Sueme ...it has not -so far- been possible in the
laboratory to convert a pure saprophyte (1)
ascii: dsu...@ripco.com into an habitual parasite.
(1) If the reader does not understand this word, it is too bad. Hans Zinsser,
just another theatre geek
>: Patrick Kevin Williams (pwil...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote:
>: : Why the ruckus about a black man portraying a vulcan?
What? Hiring the actor that best fits the part is TRITE?
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
s0418...@mtc2.mid.tec.sc.us
>>: Patrick Kevin Williams (pwil...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote:
>>: : Why the ruckus about a black man portraying a vulcan? Racism
>>: : plain and simple. There are many people who just cannot fathom
>>
>>: so, mainly because it is so unusual. Let's face it, for the last 20+ years
>>: all we've seen is one color of Vulcan. We've come to assume (incorrectly)
>>: that all Vulcans have the same color of pigmentation. Now, we see a black
> My question is "Why is he black?" I mean this from the point of view
>that yes, all the vulcan's we have seen are white. I like to think
> Anyone have an answer?
One thing I allways thought was unsusual in Star Trek was that except for
Humans, allmost all aliens of one species looked alike (i.e. hair color,
skin color, etc.). Since humans differ within our species, it would only be
logical that many other life-forms would also differ in these was. (like a
blonde Vulcan, or a red Andorian for example). After so long of writer
limitation on their thinking, we expect certain features from the created
life forms in the series. I don't think nasty terms should be thrown around
because remember, this is Star Trek, the only think consistant is
inconsistancy.
--FTZ
Cal Jacobson
in Star Trek. Most fans, I think, are of like mind & are intelligent
enough to judge a person on their actions rather than their skin.
But when I heard that they were casting a black actor in the part of a
Vulcan, I was less than thrilled. Yes, yes...I've heard the arguments
about the black actors playing Vulcans and Romulans before (and I'll be
warming up my VCR to take another look). I've heard people discuss how
we "just haven't SEEN alien 'minorities'" and so on.
But for as long as Star Trek has been around, the Vulcans have appeared
as pale-skinned humanoids with straight black hair. Why change it?
I could care less who *plays* the part, or what color of skin they have.
When production teams modify established premises to accommodate a certain
individual, it smacks of politics. In this case, Political Correctness.
I wish this particular actor playing the Vulcan in 'Voyager the best of
luck. And I *WILL* watch the show. And I *PROBABLY* will like it.
But to sacrifice continuity to get better demographics is silly.
Cal Jacobson
ja...@mystech.com
e
Kate Orman
>I, for one, have no problem with non-white actors playing major roles
>in Star Trek. Most fans, I think, are of like mind & are intelligent
>enough to judge a person on their actions rather than their skin.
Heh. "I'm not a racist, but..."
>But when I heard that they were casting a black actor in the part of a
>Vulcan, I was less than thrilled. Yes, yes...I've heard the arguments
>about the black actors playing Vulcans and Romulans before (and I'll be
>warming up my VCR to take another look). I've heard people discuss how
>we "just haven't SEEN alien 'minorities'" and so on.
>
>But for as long as Star Trek has been around, the Vulcans have appeared
>as pale-skinned humanoids with straight black hair. Why change it?
>I could care less who *plays* the part, or what color of skin they have.
Then why complain about it? :-)
>When production teams modify established premises to accommodate a certain
>individual, it smacks of politics. In this case, Political Correctness.
So let's see, we've never seen a Maori human being in the Star Trek
Universe - so they *don't exist*! :-) At *no* time in Trek's history has it
been said that Vulcans are 100% White. It is *not* established continuity
that there can't be a black Vulcan - in fact, it's rather obvious (or
should be now) that there *are* black Vulcans.
I'm so glad Voyager is being accused of "political correctness", because
diversity and tolerance is what Trek is (or *should* be) all about. Each
time someone hollers "PC", I know I'm going to like the show more and
more. :-)
--
Kate Orman
"You are endlessly agitating, unceasingly mischievous. Will you never
stop?" - Light, in Marc Platt's "Ghost Light", 1989
just another theatre geek
Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
>But for as long as Star Trek has been around, the Vulcans have appeared
>as pale-skinned humanoids with straight black hair. Why change it?
Because you have a good actor.
>I could care less who *plays* the part, or what color of skin they have.
>When production teams modify established premises to accommodate a certain
>individual, it smacks of politics. In this case, Political Correctness.
What smacks of Political Correctness is saying that such and such
is not appropriate for a role because of his skin color REGARDLESS OF HIS
ACTING ABILITY.
Cal Jacobson
: >I, for one, have no problem with non-white actors playing major roles
: >in Star Trek. Most fans, I think, are of like mind & are intelligent
: >enough to judge a person on their actions rather than their skin.
: Heh. "I'm not a racist, but..."
Talk about closed minds! I cast a dissenting vote and all of a sudden
I'M the RACIST!
God forbid somebody disagrees with the popular view in the '90s.
: Then why complain about it? :-)
Because I'm a stickler for continuity. I HATE uniform changes between
the various series and the movies, I hate certain plot devices created which
conflict with previous canon works (i.e Khan recognizing Chekov).
: So let's see, we've never seen a Maori human being in the Star Trek
: Universe - so they *don't exist*! :-)
Well, if you want to get technical, MOST things in the Star Trek
"Universe" don't exist.
But if a "Maori" shows up in a novel, it isn't canon.
If one appears in an episode of DS9 or Voyager, or appears in a movie,
then sure, I does exist.
: At *no* time in Trek's history has it
: been said that Vulcans are 100% White. It is *not* established continuity
: that there can't be a black Vulcan - in fact, it's rather obvious (or
: should be now) that there *are* black Vulcans.
By that same argument, at no time in Trek's history has it been said
that Jean-Luc Picard never put a tribble down his pants. But he *might*
have done it! Right?
If you start basing your philosophies on what HASN'T been proved,
expect to go through life very confused...
: I'm so glad Voyager is being accused of "political correctness", because
: diversity and tolerance is what Trek is (or *should* be) all about. Each
: time someone hollers "PC", I know I'm going to like the show more and
: more. :-)
Tolerance has NOTHING to do with it. I could care less if the new series
had a pack of wild dogs acting in it, as long as it didn't conflict with
previously established "Star Trek Universe 'facts'".
And, by the way, I take offense at your LACK OF TOLERANCE of MY point of
view and of your implication that I am racist. Unfortunately, in the 90s,
being called a 'racist' is much like being called a child molester:
whether or not the accusation is true, the label sticks.
Mr M S Woodward
mur...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Robert M. Wright III) writes:
>>: so, mainly because it is so unusual. Let's face it, for the last 20+ years
>>: all we've seen is one color of Vulcan. We've come to assume (incorrectly)
>>: that all Vulcans have the same color of pigmentation. Now, we see a black
>that yes, all the vulcan's we have seen are white. I like to think
>he is some sort of reverse albino (too much pigment vs none). Or is
>he just from another area of vulcan (ie. the polar caps?")
>
> Anyone have an answer?
>
> Later
> Rob.
Well human skin colour is due to varying levels of melanin (sorry if it
is spelt wrong but it has been a while since I did biology), we must
assume that the alien races portrayed in Star Trek have a similar chemical
or they would all have pale white skin. Vulcans have a green tinge due to
their blood which is based on copper instead of iron. But if they had an
elevated level of melanin-type pigment they would appear black as would
any other race with a similar physical make up.
Comments welcome.
__|__
/ | \ Mark Woodward
| | | University of Warwick
| [|] | President - Warwick Trek
| _|_ | ms...@warwick.ac.uk
| / \ |
\\___// 'May the Prophets guide you'
Cal Jacobson
: Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
: >: Then why complain about it? :-)
: >Because I'm a stickler for continuity.
Thanks, Dewey Decimal. Do you get a nosebleed on that horse of yours?
: Why is having all-white Vulcans a non-foolish consistency when
: you have a non-white actor who can do the role justice?
Like I've said before: I DON'T CARE *WHO* IS PLAYING THE PART!
I DON'T CARE *WHAT COLOR* THEIR SKIN IS!!
"Little minds" indeed.
: >Tolerance has NOTHING to do with it.
: It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
Check this thread again, Captain Speedread.
: > I could care less if the new series
: >had a pack of wild dogs acting in it, as long as it didn't conflict with
: >previously established "Star Trek Universe 'facts'".
: Good. Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
: Star Trek universe.
By whom? On screen?
: >And, by the way, I take offense at your LACK OF TOLERANCE of MY point of
: >view and of your implication that I am racist. Unfortunately, in the 90s,
: >being called a 'racist' is much like being called a child molester:
: >
: >whether or not the accusation is true, the label sticks.
: You seem to think skin color matters, at least more so than
: height and weight. And it matters more than acting ability.
: What's a person to think?
^^^^^
You're giving yourself a lot of credit there, bubba.
*You* seem to think that I am obsessed with the black actor himself.
WRONG!
AGAIN: I am upset with the kids at Paramount changing a familiar alien
race for no good reason other than Demographics. I'm sure that this
gentleman playing the Vulcan in question (and does anybody have a name
for this actor anyway? Just curious...) is a good actor. But I'm sure
that the casting folks could have found another role for him in the
series if they wanted *him*. But for some reason, they must have said
"we NEED a black Vulcan."
I don't CARE IF THE ACTOR IS BLACK. He could be Asian, Native American,
Hispanic...hell, he could be a midget for all I care!
Of course, it is pointless to try and explain myself. I've already been
tried and convicted by the Politically Correct on this newsgroup.
CJ
just another theatre geek
Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
>Kate Orman (kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au) wrote:
>: In article <3a6tgm$c...@mystech.mystech.com> ja...@mystech.mystech.com (Cal Jacobson) writes:
>: >I, for one, have no problem with non-white actors playing major roles
>: >in Star Trek. Most fans, I think, are of like mind & are intelligent
>: >enough to judge a person on their actions rather than their skin.
>: Heh. "I'm not a racist, but..."
>Talk about closed minds!
Well, we WERE talking about your post...
>: Then why complain about it? :-)
>Because I'm a stickler for continuity.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
Why is having all-white Vulcans a non-foolish consistency when
you have a non-white actor who can do the role justice?
>Tolerance has NOTHING to do with it.
It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
> I could care less if the new series
>had a pack of wild dogs acting in it, as long as it didn't conflict with
>previously established "Star Trek Universe 'facts'".
Good. Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
Star Trek universe.
>And, by the way, I take offense at your LACK OF TOLERANCE of MY point of
>view and of your implication that I am racist. Unfortunately, in the 90s,
>being called a 'racist' is much like being called a child molester:
>
>whether or not the accusation is true, the label sticks.
You seem to think skin color matters, at least more so than
height and weight. And it matters more than acting ability.
What's a person to think?
--
David H. Kime
Jacobson) wrote:
> AGAIN: I am upset with the kids at Paramount changing a familiar alien
> race for no good reason other than Demographics. I'm sure that this
> gentleman playing the Vulcan in question (and does anybody have a name
> for this actor anyway? Just curious...) is a good actor. But I'm sure
> that the casting folks could have found another role for him in the
> series if they wanted *him*. But for some reason, they must have said
> "we NEED a black Vulcan."
Has anybody considered the fact that the character write-up reportedly said
"pale skinned Vulcan..." and that they were auditioning many white actors,
then along comes this actor who blows away all the other auditioners. He
simply is the best Vulcan since Leonard Nimoy. There is no doubt who the
logical choice is, the man who played the best Vulcan. I think everybody
who thinks Paramount did this just for demographics is silly. I think
everybody who thinks this is a huge mistake is stupid. Without a doubt,
this man playing the role was the best person who auditioned. Without a
doubt, everybody knew that he would have to be second only to Nimoy in his
performance of a Vulcan. Without a doubt the actor will be the best Vulcan
since Spock (perhaps even better since Spock was only half Vulcan).
Anyother viewpoints are insulting to the producers, Paramount, and VERY
insulting and VERY demeaning to the actor. I hate to be condescending, but
I think people who feel the producers did this to fill a demographic gap
should be ashamed of this opinion.
--
David H. Kime
dh...@cornell.edu
Cal Jacobson
: In article <3afuhg$k...@mystech.mystech.com>, ja...@mystech.mystech.com (Cal
: Jacobson) wrote:
: > AGAIN: I am upset with the kids at Paramount changing a familiar alien
: > race for no good reason other than Demographics. I'm sure that this
: > gentleman playing the Vulcan in question (and does anybody have a name
: > for this actor anyway? Just curious...) is a good actor. But I'm sure
: > that the casting folks could have found another role for him in the
: > series if they wanted *him*. But for some reason, they must have said
: > "we NEED a black Vulcan."
: Has anybody considered the fact that the character write-up reportedly said
: "pale skinned Vulcan..." and that they were auditioning many white actors,
: then along comes this actor who blows away all the other auditioners. He
: simply is the best Vulcan since Leonard Nimoy.
Amazing how you reached your conclusion, considering not a single episode of
Voyager has aired yet. Did you get to sit in on a shoot?
: There is no doubt who the
: logical choice is, the man who played the best Vulcan. I think everybody
: who thinks Paramount did this just for demographics is silly.
I trust you're not going into broadcasting or business.
: I think
: everybody who thinks this is a huge mistake is stupid.
True. I'm glad I'm not one of them. This is a pretty minor thing that
still won't keep me from watching the hell out of this show.
: Without a doubt,
: this man playing the role was the best person who auditioned.
Oh, I can doubt. (hypothetical situation: Jack Nicholson --of all people--
comes in and auditions for the role. He's *fantastic*. He also wants
$1 million per episode. Do they hire him?)
Regardless, we're straying off of the main subject: continuity with canon.
: Without a
: doubt, everybody knew that he would have to be second only to Nimoy in his
: performance of a Vulcan.
Is this the same "everybody" who is totally "without a doubt" about this
entire subject?
: Without a doubt
...I guess so...
: the actor will be the best Vulcan
: since Spock (perhaps even better since Spock was only half Vulcan).
Geez, ya can't beat THAT logic!
Buddy, I think you've been sitting too close to the cathode-ray tube.
: Anyother viewpoints are insulting to the producers, Paramount, and VERY
: insulting and VERY demeaning to the actor.
Yes, God forbid anybody voices a different opinion in this world regarding
Star Trek, sir.
: I hate to be condescending, but
Oh, go right ahead! You've already achieved "pious Trek-geek".
: I think people who feel the producers did this to fill a demographic gap
: should be ashamed of this opinion.
I think you take Star Trek *WAY* too seriously.
To quote William Shatner from his SNL gig:
"Have you ever kissed a girl?"
: David H. Kime
: dh...@cornell.edu
CJ
just another theatre geek
Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
>just another theatre geek (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
>: >: Then why complain about it? :-)
>: >Because I'm a stickler for continuity.
>: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
>: you have a non-white actor who can do the role justice?
>Like I've said before: I DON'T CARE *WHO* IS PLAYING THE PART!
>I DON'T CARE *WHAT COLOR* THEIR SKIN IS!!
That isn't what you're saying.
>: > I could care less if the new series
>: >had a pack of wild dogs acting in it, as long as it didn't conflict with
>: >previously established "Star Trek Universe 'facts'".
>: Good. Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
>: Star Trek universe.
>By whom? On screen?
Yes. TWICE. (And Asian Vulcanoids have been established on screen
as well).
>: >And, by the way, I take offense at your LACK OF TOLERANCE of MY point of
>: >view and of your implication that I am racist. Unfortunately, in the 90s,
>: >being called a 'racist' is much like being called a child molester:
>: >whether or not the accusation is true, the label sticks.
>
>: You seem to think skin color matters, at least more so than
>: height and weight. And it matters more than acting ability.
>: What's a person to think?
> ^^^^^
>You're giving yourself a lot of credit there, bubba.
>
>*You* seem to think that I am obsessed with the black actor himself.
>WRONG!
>
>AGAIN: I am upset with the kids at Paramount changing a familiar alien
>race for no good reason other than Demographics.
Your assumption. Obviously, you don't believe a black actor can
be the best actor they found. Otherwise, you wouldn't place skin color
over acting ability.
I'm sure that this
>gentleman playing the Vulcan in question (and does anybody have a name
>for this actor anyway? Just curious...) is a good actor. But I'm sure
>that the casting folks could have found another role for him in the
>series if they wanted *him*.
Again, WHY do you think that?
> But for some reason, they must have said
>"we NEED a black Vulcan."
Again, why think this way? If he fits the role, why SHOULDN'T he
get it? Shouldn't the best person for the role get it, regardless of skin
color?
>I don't CARE IF THE ACTOR IS BLACK.
Again, that's NOT what you're saying. If you didn't care, you
wouldn't make a fuss over it. And you'd wouldn't make a fuss over
something that has already been established. You'd let ability be the
determining factor, not skin color.
> He could be Asian, Native American,
>Hispanic...hell, he could be a midget for all I care!
>
>Of course, it is pointless to try and explain myself. I've already been
>tried and convicted by the Politically Correct on this newsgroup.
By your own words...
And, by the way, I'm not the one who's rejecting the person
solely on skin color....
Robert Bowell
>just another theatre geek (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
>: >: Then why complain about it? :-)
>: >Because I'm a stickler for continuity.
>: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
>Thanks, Dewey Decimal. Do you get a nosebleed on that horse of yours?
>: Why is having all-white Vulcans a non-foolish consistency when
>: you have a non-white actor who can do the role justice?
>Like I've said before: I DON'T CARE *WHO* IS PLAYING THE PART!
>I DON'T CARE *WHAT COLOR* THEIR SKIN IS!!
>"Little minds" indeed.
>: >Tolerance has NOTHING to do with it.
>: It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>Check this thread again, Captain Speedread.
>: > I could care less if the new series
>: >had a pack of wild dogs acting in it, as long as it didn't conflict with
>: >previously established "Star Trek Universe 'facts'".
>: Good. Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
>: Star Trek universe.
>By whom? On screen?
I DON'T KNOW the actor's name...but there have been at least 3 black Vulcans so far. On screen.
Y'obt.,
Robert Andrew Bowell Jr.
Lo
>just another theatre geek (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
[stuff bobbited]
>: > I could care less if the new series
>: >had a pack of wild dogs acting in it, as long as it didn't conflict with
>: >previously established "Star Trek Universe 'facts'".
>: Good. Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
>: Star Trek universe.
>By whom? On screen?
Actually black Vulanoids have been established in the Star Trek universe.
Check out "The Pegasus" Season 7. It may not be established for a long time
but is is established. Since it occurred on screen it is canon. Sorry to
burst your little bubble. (Okay so I'm not really sorry. Sue me.)
>: >And, by the way, I take offense at your LACK OF TOLERANCE of MY point of
>: >view and of your implication that I am racist. Unfortunately, in the 90s,
>: >being called a 'racist' is much like being called a child molester:
>: >
>: >whether or not the accusation is true, the label sticks.
>: You seem to think skin color matters, at least more so than
>: height and weight. And it matters more than acting ability.
>: What's a person to think?
> ^^^^^
>You're giving yourself a lot of credit there, bubba.
You didn't answer the question.
>*You* seem to think that I am obsessed with the black actor himself.
>WRONG!
You're not? Well you had me fooled.
>AGAIN: I am upset with the kids at Paramount changing a familiar alien
>race for no good reason other than Demographics. I'm sure that this
>gentleman playing the Vulcan in question (and does anybody have a name
>for this actor anyway? Just curious...) is a good actor. But I'm sure
>that the casting folks could have found another role for him in the
>series if they wanted *him*. But for some reason, they must have said
>"we NEED a black Vulcan."
Why do you assume that? Maybe he protrayed the character exactly as TPTB
felt he should be played and he just happens to be Black. Sheesh. Next
thing you know people will be saying that it's a conspiracy to take a more
power from white men.
>I don't CARE IF THE ACTOR IS BLACK. He could be Asian, Native American,
>Hispanic...hell, he could be a midget for all I care!
If you don't care then why are you bringing it up. It's not like it's not
canon.
>Of course, it is pointless to try and explain myself. I've already been
>tried and convicted by the Politically Correct on this newsgroup.
I don't know what political correctness has to do with anything. You were
wrong. Live with it and move on.
Lo, Daughter of the First House and reigning Brooklyn Queen
**************************************************************************
lb0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu | "I don't do well in groups. It's
| difficult to work in a group when you're
| omnipotent."
| -Q to Data (Deja Q)
**************************************************************************
I'm not in denial, I'm just very selective about what I accept as reality.
**************************************************************************
C Jacobson
: Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
: >: Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
: >: Star Trek universe.
: >By whom? On screen?
: Yes. TWICE. (And Asian Vulcanoids have been established on screen
: as well).
Care to name the episodes?
: >: You seem to think skin color matters, at least more so than
: >: height and weight. And it matters more than acting ability.
: >: What's a person to think?
: > ^^^^^
: >You're giving yourself a lot of credit there, bubba.
: >
: >*You* seem to think that I am obsessed with the black actor himself.
: >WRONG!
: >AGAIN: I am upset with the kids at Paramount changing a familiar alien
: >race for no good reason other than Demographics.
: Your assumption.
I'm assuming nothing *about* my opinion; that IS my opinion.
Whether or not it is on-target is another matter.
But hey, what do you care? You'd just rather return to the old
argument:
: Obviously, you don't believe a black actor can
: be the best actor they found. Otherwise, you wouldn't place skin color
: over acting ability.
Listen, you ignorant git, I don't care if they hire a totally
NON-WHITE cast. Unlike some people in this newsgroup, I don't have
a sh*t-fit because one show isn't as "ethnically balanced" as another.
: I'm sure that this
: >gentleman playing the Vulcan in question (and does anybody have a name
: >for this actor anyway? Just curious...) is a good actor. But I'm sure
: >that the casting folks could have found another role for him in the
: >series if they wanted *him*.
: > But for some reason, they must have said
: >"we NEED a black Vulcan."
: Again, why think this way? If he fits the role,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Okay, let's address this.
You're casting the next Star Trek series, and you need a Vulcan.
What do 95% of American television viewers think of when you mention
'Vulcan'?
Leonard Nimoy. Maybe Mark Lenard. Tall, pale men with dark hair.
To make your audience (most of whom DON'T read this newsgroup)
identify more easily with the character, you're going to look for
"a Spock type." You wouldn't cast a blonde-haired person for the
role, nor an overweight one. Why not?
Think about the planet Vulcan. Hot, dry, and with a thin atmosphere.
Think about how those conditions would affect an evolving race.
If Vulcans posessed melanin, wouldn't you think that they would have
an incredible tan (think of the early scenes of ST:TMP)?
And since Vulcans are a logical race, wouldn't it be SAFE to assume
that they would have done away with racism long ago, ensuring equal
opportunities for any and all 'Vulcan minorities' (if they exist)
whether they are labeled such because of appearance or beliefs?
Then why haven't we seen such diversity in the movies and TV?
And what if being hetrogenous is a unique human characteristic?
: And, by the way, I'm not the one who's rejecting the person
: solely on skin color....
And, by the way, you seem to have a lot of trouble understanding the
difference between ACTORS and CHARACTERS. That really confuses me,
considering your .sig:
: Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
^^^^^^^^^^
Of course, THAT explains your behavior and unwillingness to accept
others' views.
CJ
Ryan Maves
actor, not by a young black man like Tim Russ. (Old as in late 50s-early
60s in human age, which would probably around 150 for a Vulcan.) When no
adequate actor could be found, they decided they would scrap the "old
Vulcan" idea and go with Tim Russ, who I guess was auditioning for
something else.
There have been black Romulans on TNG and Asian-looking Vulcans in ST3,
and Vulcan's a big planet. It would be more surprising if there weren't
"minority" Vulcans. I guess they've decided to drop the convention of
Vulcan names starting with an "S" for males, but if Tuvok's from a
different part of Vulcan than Sarek and Spock it would make more sense.
I'm a fairly conservative Republican, so hard-core PC stuff usually
annoys me. This isn't worth making an issue about, though. The issue at
hand is: can Tim Russ and the scriptwriters make Tuvok into a interesting
and enjoyable character? I'm confident they can. Racial hypersensitivity
just isn't worth anyone's time, least of all as it relates to Star Trek,
a franchise with a vision of the future (both racially and non-racially
speaking) that we all can admire, liberal, conservatives, monarchists, or
whoever.
I'm sure Tim Russ is a fine actor and that Voyager will be a cool show.
What I find interesting is that Tuvok is the tactical officer. A Vulcan
who fights. He's going to kick ass.
-rcm
Kate Orman
>David H. Kime (dh...@cornell.edu) wrote:
[snip]
>: There is no doubt who the
>: logical choice is, the man who played the best Vulcan. I think everybody
>: who thinks Paramount did this just for demographics is silly.
>
>I trust you're not going into broadcasting or business.
So first it was "political correctness", now it's "demographics". Tell me,
which do you consider most important: anti-racism; ratings; continuity?
(And while you're at it, could you let us know in which Star Trek story or
movie it was established that Vulcans are never dark-skinned? :-))
John Rickard Rybock
question: was the actor who is going to play the Vulcan on Voyager on the
bridge of the Enterprise B? After the movie, a friend mentioned it, and I
though it explained the inexplicable urge I had to tweek the guy's ears
into points (I swear, I literally looked at his ears and said, shouldn't
they be pointed?)
Was this to give the guy a little practice?
--
| "You are the meek, and I am the tyranny of evil men.
John R. Rybock | But I am trying hard... I am trying REAL HARD, Ringo,
(ryb...@umich.edu) | to be the shepard."
| -- Samuel L. Jackson, "Pulp Fiction"
Kate Orman
>just another theatre geek (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
[snippetty-snip]
>But hey, what do you care? You'd just rather return to the old
>argument:
>
>: Obviously, you don't believe a black actor can
>: be the best actor they found. Otherwise, you wouldn't place skin color
>: over acting ability.
>
>Listen, you ignorant git, I don't care if they hire a totally
>NON-WHITE cast. Unlike some people in this newsgroup, I don't have
>a sh*t-fit because one show isn't as "ethnically balanced" as another.
Nope. You have a shit-fit because they hired a non-white actor. It's been
*repeatedly* pointed out that a black Vulcan doesn't violate continuity,
and yet you persist in flames and nonsense. Why?
[snip]
>You're casting the next Star Trek series, and you need a Vulcan.
>What do 95% of American television viewers think of when you mention
>'Vulcan'?
Rubber, probably. This "Trek" we're talking about, not real life. :-)
>Leonard Nimoy. Maybe Mark Lenard. Tall, pale men with dark hair.
Good thing they didn't cast a *woman* then, isn't it? :-) btw, Mark
Lenard's hair hasn't been dark for a loooooong time.
>To make your audience (most of whom DON'T read this newsgroup)
>identify more easily with the character, you're going to look for
>"a Spock type." You wouldn't cast a blonde-haired person for the
>role, nor an overweight one. Why not?
So overweight people are expected to "identify" with a skinny character.
And of course, blacks have no problem "identifying" with a white
character.
>Think about the planet Vulcan. Hot, dry, and with a thin atmosphere.
>Think about how those conditions would affect an evolving race.
Hmm. On Earth, humans who evolved in hot, dry areas are dark-skinned.
>If Vulcans posessed melanin, wouldn't you think that they would have
>an incredible tan (think of the early scenes of ST:TMP)?
I possess melanin and I live in Australia. *And* it's a stinking hot
summer. And all I have are a few freckles.
>And since Vulcans are a logical race, wouldn't it be SAFE to assume
>that they would have done away with racism long ago, ensuring equal
>opportunities for any and all 'Vulcan minorities' (if they exist)
>whether they are labeled such because of appearance or beliefs?
>Then why haven't we seen such diversity in the movies and TV?
We have - as has been *repeatedly* pointed out to you.
>And what if being hetrogenous is a unique human characteristic?
Tell it to the Bajorans.
>: And, by the way, I'm not the one who's rejecting the person
>: solely on skin color....
>
>And, by the way, you seem to have a lot of trouble understanding the
>difference between ACTORS and CHARACTERS. That really confuses me,
>considering your .sig:
>
>: Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
>
>Of course, THAT explains your behavior and unwillingness to accept
>others' views.
What's *your* excuse? :-)
Nicholas Ragovis
the difference with the Vulcans, especially considering how many other
times Star Trek has broken continuity.
C Jacobson
: There have been white Klingons and black Klingons. I really don't see
: times Star Trek has broken continuity.
Well, the point is moot now, anyway. Hell, what's one more
continuity error amongst fans?
I'll still watch Voyager.
CJ
Andrew M. Bates
>(And while you're at it, could you let us know in which Star Trek story or
>movie it was established that Vulcans are never dark-skinned? :-))
Okay, I'll bite.
1) In the original series, there was never a black Vulcan.
2) In the movies, there has never been a black Vulcan.
3) In the Next Generation, there has never been a black Vulcan (NOTE: I said
VULCAN, not VULCANOID!).
4) The Vulcans are a logical race.
5) It is illogical to discriminate based solely on skin color.
6) (From 4 and 5) If black Vulcans exist, it would be logical to see them
among Vulcan society.
7) (From 1, 2, 3, and 6) Since we have never seen a black Vulcan, yet it
would be illogical to exclude them, logic dictates that there must not
be any black Vulcans.
Come on, you probably can't even prove that gravity works! But if you drop
a rock 1000 times, and every time it falls, chances are that it will fall
the next time you drop it.
Likewise, if you see 100 Vulcans, and every one is white, and we have seen
a reasonable cross-section of Vulcan society, chances are there aren't any
black Vulcans.
Okay, let me take a different tack here. Star Trek VIII. Data is captured
by the Borg. They're about to kill him. He fires a phaser from his eyes and
kills them all. Would people complain about this? Yes. But I challenge you
to show me any episode where it was stated that Data doesn't have a phaser
built in to his eye socket. :)
There's a difference between something that has been proven not to exist,
and something which pretty much 99.8% of the time appears not to exist.
Andy Bates.
--
Andy Bates Internet: ba...@cs.ucsb.edu
Graduate Student, lightacandlelightamotivestepdownstepdownwatchingheel
University of California, Santa Barbara crushcrushuhohthismeansnofearcavalier
Andrew M. Bates
>In article <3abfji$h...@mystech.mystech.com>,
>Cal Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
>>Kate Orman (kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au) wrote:
>>: In article <3a6tgm$c...@mystech.mystech.com> ja...@mystech.mystech.com (Cal Jacobson) writes:
>>: >I, for one, have no problem with non-white actors playing major roles
>>: >in Star Trek. Most fans, I think, are of like mind & are intelligent
>>: >enough to judge a person on their actions rather than their skin.
>>: Heh. "I'm not a racist, but..."
>>Talk about closed minds!
> Well, we WERE talking about your post...
Come on! Let's try to be a LITTLE open here!
>>: Then why complain about it? :-)
>>Because I'm a stickler for continuity.
> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
> Why is having all-white Vulcans a non-foolish consistency when
>you have a non-white actor who can do the role justice?
The question isn't whether the actor is good or not. I'm sure he's very
talented. But the original poster isn't suggesting that he be replaced
by a white person who is a bad actor! I'm sure there are ALSO many white
actors who could do the role justice, as well as Hispanic, Asian, and so
on.
Let's put this another way: let's say, for the sake of argument, that
LeVar Burton couldn't be in the next Star Trek movie. Who would be chosen
to play the part? Probably a black man. But what if Charlton Heston is
available? He's certainly a great actor! So wouldn't the producers be
saying, by casting Eddie Murphy in the role, that race is more important
than acting ability? The important thing (or one of them) is that the
character LOOK the part. Charlton Heston wouldn't look like Geordi, and
neither would James Earl Jones, or Gary Coleman, or many actors, regardless
of race!
> Good. Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
>Star Trek universe.
Did you say black VULCANOIDS? Or black VULCANS? Big difference.
>>And, by the way, I take offense at your LACK OF TOLERANCE of MY point of
>>view and of your implication that I am racist. Unfortunately, in the 90s,
>>being called a 'racist' is much like being called a child molester:
>>
>>whether or not the accusation is true, the label sticks.
> You seem to think skin color matters, at least more so than
>height and weight. And it matters more than acting ability.
> What's a person to think?
Okay, Roger, hold on for a minute. The appearance of an actor is a MAJOR
factor in casting for ANY role. Danny DeVito wasn't cast as the lead in
True Lies, even though he's probably a better actor than Schwarzenegger.
And according to your logic, since acting ability is the most important
factor, Sir Lawrence Olivier should be cast in every lead role in every film.
But, contrary to what logic rules in your brain, appearance matters in
casting.
"You seem to think skin color matters, at least more so than
height and weight. And it matters more than acting ability."
This only applies if there are NO actors of the appropriate
skin color (and height and weight) who have equal or better
acting ability. And I'm sure there are plenty of white actors
out there (as well as black, Hispanic, and so on) who have
comparable acting ability to the man who has been cast in the role.
If they cast him because they found he was the best actor for the role,
that's fine.
If they cast him BECAUSE he was black, then that's where the problem
comes in. The original poster was implying that maybe he was cast
in the role as a sort of statement towards political correctness.
But having no black Vulcans is no more politically incorrect than having,
say, pink Andorians.
Oh, I'm sick if this. Roger, you appear to have a more closed mind
than you claim the original poster does. Try to look at other people's
postings for what they are saying, not what you infer.
Kate Orman
[snip]
>Let's put this another way: let's say, for the sake of argument, that
>LeVar Burton couldn't be in the next Star Trek movie. Who would be chosen
>to play the part? Probably a black man. But what if Charlton Heston is
>available? He's certainly a great actor! So wouldn't the producers be
>saying, by casting Eddie Murphy in the role, that race is more important
>than acting ability? The important thing (or one of them) is that the
>character LOOK the part. Charlton Heston wouldn't look like Geordi, and
>neither would James Earl Jones, or Gary Coleman, or many actors, regardless
>of race!
Yes, and you wouldn't hire a little person to play Geordi, or a woman. But
it's not an established character who's being replaced, it's a whole new
character being created. *Pop* goes the analogy. :-)
>> Good. Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
>>Star Trek universe.
>
>Did you say black VULCANOIDS? Or black VULCANS? Big difference.
There's a black Vulcan in Star Trek V - Spock's midwife.
[snip]
>If they cast him because they found he was the best actor for the role,
>that's fine.
>
>If they cast him BECAUSE he was black, then that's where the problem
>comes in. The original poster was implying that maybe he was cast
>in the role as a sort of statement towards political correctness.
>But having no black Vulcans is no more politically incorrect than having,
>say, pink Andorians.
Hey, they hired a female actor to play the female Captain too! :-)
If they planned a black Vulcan, or realised during casting that it was a
possibility supported by existing continuity, then why not hire a
black actor?
For that matter, wasn't it "politically correct" to hire Levar Burton, or
for that matter, Nichelle Nichols? Or might they have been hired (a)
because they could act and (b) because not having a boring cast of
all-white, all-male characters is part of Star Trek's bigotry-free future?
Y'know what? I watched some Babylon 5 for the first time the other day. I
couldn't work out what seemed strange about the main characters... until I
realised they didn't have a fraction of the diversity of Trek's cast. I
really *missed* the mixture of genders, races, viewpoints. If everyone
in the future who counts is white, it's gonna be a dull future.
If "political correctness" means showing us a little of the fascinating
diversity of humanity - and the rest of the galaxy - then Star Trek is
about as "politically correct" as they come. Those who are upset by the
diversity of Trek's casts are missing out on a little piece of the show's
magic.
(Awww...)
just another theatre geek
Andrew M. Bates <ba...@hobbes.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>gwan...@u.washington.edu (just another theatre geek) writes:
>>>: Then why complain about it? :-)
>>>Because I'm a stickler for continuity.
>> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
>> Why is having all-white Vulcans a non-foolish consistency when
>>you have a non-white actor who can do the role justice?
>The question isn't whether the actor is good or not. I'm sure he's very
>talented. But the original poster isn't suggesting that he be replaced
>by a white person who is a bad actor! I'm sure there are ALSO many white
>actors who could do the role justice, as well as Hispanic, Asian, and so
>on.
Then it comes down to race, then.
>Let's put this another way: let's say, for the sake of argument, that
>LeVar Burton couldn't be in the next Star Trek movie. Who would be chosen
>to play the part?
You don't recast. Next question?
>> Good. Because black Vulcanoids have been LONG established in the
>>Star Trek universe.
>Did you say black VULCANOIDS? Or black VULCANS? Big difference.
Not really.
And we've seen both.
>> You seem to think skin color matters, at least more so than
>>height and weight. And it matters more than acting ability.
>> What's a person to think?
>Okay, Roger, hold on for a minute. The appearance of an actor is a MAJOR
>factor in casting for ANY role.
Are we talking as-it-is or what-it-should-be? Either way,
appearance is a factor, but only as it relates to the part. Skin color
has little to do with being a Vulcan (particularly since the powers that
be are creating the culture as they go along).
>If they cast him because they found he was the best actor for the role,
>that's fine.
Not according to the original poster.
>Oh, I'm sick if this. Roger, you appear to have a more closed mind
>than you claim the original poster does. Try to look at other people's
>postings for what they are saying, not what you infer.
And basically he said that black Vulcans cannot exist, for
reasons that basically boil down to "They weren't before." This is both a
weak arguement and wrong in fact.
just another theatre geek
>>(And while you're at it, could you let us know in which Star Trek story or
>>movie it was established that Vulcans are never dark-skinned? :-))
>
>
>Okay, I'll bite.
>
>1) In the original series, there was never a black Vulcan.
True.
>
>2) In the movies, there has never been a black Vulcan.
False.
>4) The Vulcans are a logical race.
Irrelevant to the arguement.
>5) It is illogical to discriminate based solely on skin color.
True.
>>6) (From 4 and 5) If black Vulcans exist, it would be logical to see them
> among Vulcan society.
True.
>7) (From 1, 2, 3, and 6) Since we have never seen a black Vulcan, yet it
> would be illogical to exclude them, logic dictates that there must not
> be any black Vulcans.
Based on what sample size? On a sample size of a few hundred or a
few thousand, you might be reasonable in making the inference. (And even
then, there may be other cicumstances, so the conclusion would only be
tentative). But think carefully here....how many times have we seen
Vulcan society? And how many times have we seen Vulcans?
You know what logic says about making inferences with
insufficient data....
>Likewise, if you see 100 Vulcans, and every one is white, and we have seen
>a reasonable cross-section of Vulcan society, chances are there aren't any
>black Vulcans.
Ah, but these are two assumptions that are not quite valid.
First, not every Vulcan has been white (both black and Asian Vulcans have
been seen) and we are not assured that we have seen a reasonable
cross-section of Vulcan society.
>There's a difference between something that has been proven not to exist,
>and something which pretty much 99.8% of the time appears not to exist.
I'm not sure you know the difference....
Loren Finkelstein
Bates) wrote:
> Come on, you probably can't even prove that gravity works! But if you drop
> a rock 1000 times, and every time it falls, chances are that it will fall
> the next time you drop it.
>
> Likewise, if you see 100 Vulcans, and every one is white, and we have seen
> a reasonable cross-section of Vulcan society, chances are there aren't any
> black Vulcans.
When I got to college I met several people from places where that had
grown up and never met a Jewish person, or an African American. It is
reasonable to assume that these people had met several hundred, if not
thousands of people by the time they got to college. Does that mean that
there are no Jews or African Americans on the planet? No. Only that
there are none in certain areas.
How long did we go without seeing a ferengi woman? Are you saying that up
until that point it was reasonable to assume that there weren't any?
Just because you don't see it don't mean it ain't there.
--
Loren Reed Finkelstein ---l...@panix.com---
Be a Leader - Be a Friend - Be of Service ---Alpha Phi Omega---
Give yourself over to Absolute Pleasure --The Rocky Horror Picture Show--
__________________________________________________________________________
Those eyes of thine, from mine, have drawn salt tears.
Christopher Bradford Stone
just another theatre geek <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>In article <3bl9o4$4...@hobbes.ucsb.edu>,
>Andrew M. Bates <ba...@hobbes.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>> Since we have never seen a black Vulcan, yet it
>> would be illogical to exclude them, logic dictates that there must not
>> be any black Vulcans.
>
> Based on what sample size? On a sample size of a few hundred or a
>few thousand, you might be reasonable in making the inference. (And even
>then, there may be other cicumstances, so the conclusion would only be
>tentative). But think carefully here....how many times have we seen
>Vulcan society? And how many times have we seen Vulcans?
But what we *have* seen, Roger, is high-level Vulcan society. And we've
seen it several times (Star Trek III, "Amok Time," "Sarek"). And not
once did we see a black Vulcan.
This implies one of two things.
One possibility is that there are many black Vulcans, and they are
excluded from the highest eschelons of Vulcan society. This scenario
appears unlikely, given the value Vulcans place on IDIC.
The second possibility is that there are very few black Vulcans, just as
there are few albino humans. Therefore we would not expect to see black
Vulcans at every turn, even assuming that Vulcan is an equal-opportunity
society. This is the possibility I would like to believe, for one.
I'm concerned, however, that TPTB are going to start giving us black
Vulcans at every turn to show that here in the real world, Paramount does
not discriminate. If they do that, we're left with the first scenario by
default. And *that* would have very serious reprecussions for Star Trek.
--
////// // // ////// // ////// Christopher B. Stone
// ////// ///// // ///
// // // // // // /// "Consensus is the negation
////// // // // // // ////// of leadership." -Margaret Thatcher
Timothy Roy
On Monday November 28 1994 19:10, C Jacobson wrote to All:
CJ=> From: ja...@mystech.mystech.com (C Jacobson)
CJ=> Organization: Mystech Associates, Falls Church, VA
CJ=> Nicholas Ragovis (rago...@gusun.georgetown.edu) wrote:
CJ=> : There have been white Klingons and black Klingons. I really don't
CJ=> see : the difference with the Vulcans, especially considering how many
CJ=> other : times Star Trek has broken continuity.
CJ=> Well, the point is moot now, anyway. Hell, what's one more
CJ=> continuity error amongst fans?
CJ=> I'll still watch Voyager.
It's not a continuity error at all. There have been black Vulcans in the
films, and a black Romulan. What's the big deal?
Timothy
Sonja E. Mendoza
: >Likewise, if you see 100 Vulcans, and every one is white, and we have seen
: >a reasonable cross-section of Vulcan society, chances are there aren't any
: >black Vulcans.
: Ah, but these are two assumptions that are not quite valid.
: First, not every Vulcan has been white (both black and Asian Vulcans have
: been seen) and we are not assured that we have seen a reasonable
: cross-section of Vulcan society.
Absolutely. What if most Vulcans that go into Starfleet are in fact not
a reasonable cross-section of Vulcan society? It's been suggested that
Vulcans that do go into Starfleet are more of the oddballs of Vulcan
society. What if most Vulcans that do go into Starfleet are from certain
families where it is tradition (or from certain geographic regions)?
If you were an alien, and you landed in Chattanooga (a small southwest
Oklahoma farm town of around 400 people, where I used to live), and you
looked at all the people there, you'd find that they were all white
(with a few Hispanics, who often look white). Not a single black
person has ever lived in this town (ever). I have never seen anyone
of Asian or even of native American descent live in this town (and the
Hispanics only started moving into the town during the 1980's). So you
draw the conclusion that all humans are light-skinned, and you would
be wrong.
Sonja
--some...@nmsu.edu
just another theatre geek
Christopher Bradford Stone <cbs...@tucson.princeton.edu> wrote:
>In article <3bmdlp$3...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>,
>just another theatre geek <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>Andrew M. Bates <ba...@hobbes.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>>> Since we have never seen a black Vulcan, yet it
>>> would be illogical to exclude them, logic dictates that there must not
>>> be any black Vulcans.
>> Based on what sample size? On a sample size of a few hundred or a
>>few thousand, you might be reasonable in making the inference. (And even
>>then, there may be other cicumstances, so the conclusion would only be
>>tentative). But think carefully here....how many times have we seen
>>Vulcan society? And how many times have we seen Vulcans?
>seen it several times (Star Trek III, "Amok Time," "Sarek").
Ah, but look at your sample size....less than two handfuls (and
SAREK doesn't count, as that was a ship episode). Sample sizes in single
digits are large enough to be meaninfgul.
And in AMOK TIME, we are of course seeing Spock's clan/family,
which, of course, would be most similar to Spock's appearance (and in ST
III, we >DID< see Vulcans with Asian feature at the ritual area where
they took Spock). This would lead cto a hpothesis that skin color
tied to geographic distribution.
>This implies one of two things.
>
>One possibility is that there are many black Vulcans, and they are
>excluded from the highest eschelons of Vulcan society. This scenario
>appears unlikely, given the value Vulcans place on IDIC.
>
>The second possibility is that there are very few black Vulcans, just as
>there are few albino humans. Therefore we would not expect to see black
>Vulcans at every turn, even assuming that Vulcan is an equal-opportunity
>society. This is the possibility I would like to believe, for one.
Or, a third possibility, that skin color on Vulcan is tied to
geographic distribution. ANd, with the long lives and low birth rate on
Vulcan, there would be less mixing of genetic phenotypes than many would
expect.
mark gouthro
: Likewise, if you see 100 Vulcans, and every one is white, and we have seen
: a reasonable cross-section of Vulcan society, chances are there aren't any
: black Vulcans.
WE NEVER saw 100 vulcans that I can remember! even if we had a sample
of 100 from a population that probably is in the BILLIONS is ludicuocs
that's not logic its BS. We have no information on the demographics
of the Vulcans or how any possible subraces are distributed. If we
took a sample of 100 people from Ruwanda or China what race would they
all likely to be?
I see no continuity problem we were NEVER told that there were no
black vulcans. Not seeing something is not proof it doesn't exist.
Mark A. Gouthro
University of Nebraska-Lincoln,
School of Biological Science.
mgou...@unlinfo.unl.edu
Kate Orman
>
>Andrew M. Bates (ba...@hobbes.ucsb.edu) wrote:
>: kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Kate Orman) writes:
>
>: Likewise, if you see 100 Vulcans, and every one is white, and we have seen
>: a reasonable cross-section of Vulcan society, chances are there aren't any
>: black Vulcans.
I didn't say this.
>WE NEVER saw 100 vulcans that I can remember! even if we had a sample
>of 100 from a population that probably is in the BILLIONS is ludicuocs
>that's not logic its BS. We have no information on the demographics
>of the Vulcans or how any possible subraces are distributed. If we
>took a sample of 100 people from Ruwanda or China what race would they
>all likely to be?
>
>I see no continuity problem we were NEVER told that there were no
>black vulcans. Not seeing something is not proof it doesn't exist.
And since we *have* seen a black Vulcan (STV), there's no reason to argue
against Tuvok's existence on grounds of continuity.
George Reese
series, there were no black Vulcans. And we have no real reason to
believe this is true other than 79 episodes in which hardly any
Vulcans were shown at all. But we will assume this just for the hell
of it.
Can't you "There is no such thing as a black Vulcan" types imagine
that perhaps somewhere over the last hundred years black humans may
have married Vulcans, the result being a black Vulcan? The current
Vulcan could even be considered pretty much 100% Vulcan (when you
start counting 1/16ths human, you are grasping for straws) and be
black. Now this is just given 100 years of mixing, suggesting that
likely there very well might be some black Vulcans descended from
black humans. Certainly there would be very few, but that does not
mean we would never see any on Star Trek, and that is what we would be
seeing on Voyager.
Granted, that is searching into Hollywood and reaching for an
explanation, but that is given that this stupid argument put forth by
"There can't be a black Vulcan" types is true. In fact, we have no
basis on which to judge much of anything about Vulcan culture. We
know the stereotypes. They are a logical race which shuns emotion.
We know some geneology. They are related in the past to Romulans.
But we also know that they are not clones of one another. Some are
not logical. Some tell lies. Some become emotional. Some are
half-human. And now we are seeing that some are black. I am sure we
will learn other things about Vulcans in the future which do not fit
the stereotype. In fact, about the only way they could go wrong in
portraying an individual Vulcan, would be to dress the Vulcan up in a
Klingon suit and have the Vulcan act like a Klingon. I think that one
is safe to call beyond the scope of possibilities. At least, you
could not call such a person a genetic Vulcan, though they very well
could be a Vulcan national.
As a side note, I think race has very little to do with this guy's
casting. Having seen bits and pieces, he looks and acts the part of a
Vulcan EXCELLENTLY. He fits the part better than anyone since Spock
(who was not even really Vulcan :)).
Though I believe in black Vulcans, though, I am quite certain there
are no African-American Vulcans (anyone else annoyed with that term
with respect to Vulcans?).
--
George Reese (bo...@imaginary.com) http://www.winternet.com/~borg/
phone/fax: (612) 829-5495 ftp://ftp.imaginary.com/users/borg
"No one ever conquered Wyoming from the left or from the right."
-Camper Van Beethoven
Timothy Roy
Tuesday December 06 1994 19:20, mark gouthro wrote to All:
mg=> From: mgou...@unlinfo.unl.edu (mark gouthro)
mg=> Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln
mg=> Andrew M. Bates (ba...@hobbes.ucsb.edu) wrote:
mg=> : kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Kate Orman) writes:
mg=> : Likewise, if you see 100 Vulcans, and every one is white, and we
mg=> have seen : a reasonable cross-section of Vulcan society, chances are
mg=> there aren't any : black Vulcans.
mg=> WE NEVER saw 100 vulcans that I can remember! even if we had a sample
mg=> of 100 from a population that probably is in the BILLIONS is ludicuocs
mg=> that's not logic its BS. We have no information on the demographics
mg=> of the Vulcans or how any possible subraces are distributed. If we
mg=> took a sample of 100 people from Ruwanda or China what race would they
mg=> all likely to be?
mg=> I see no continuity problem we were NEVER told that there were no
mg=> black vulcans. Not seeing something is not proof it doesn't exist.
Andrew is also overlooking the fact that SPOCK'S MIDWIFE WAS BLACK!
Everyone repeat after me:
SPOCK'S MIDWIFE WAS BLACK!
TUVOK IS NOT THE FIRST BLACK VULCAN!
SPOCK'S MIDWIFE WAS BLACK!
TUVOK IS NOT THE FIRST BLACK VULCAN!
SPOCK'S MIDWIFE WAS BLACK!
TUVOK IS NOT THE FIRST BLACK VULCAN!
Oh yes,
ONLY 5-10 MINUTES OF ALL GOOD THINGS WAS "REAL"!
IT DIDN'T CONFLICT WITH GENERATIONS!
ONLY 5-10 MINUTES OF ALL GOOD THINGS WAS "REAL"!
IT DIDN'T CONFLICT WITH GENERATIONS!
ONLY 5-10 MINUTES OF ALL GOOD THINGS WAS "REAL"!
IT DIDN'T CONFLICT WITH GENERATIONS!
Sorry Mark, I hate it when I have to do that.
Timothy
Miguel Farah F.
>And since we *have* seen a black Vulcan (STV), there's no reason to argue
>against Tuvok's existence on grounds of continuity.
Where, please?
--
MIGUEL FARAH * GCS/O -d+ H s++:+>s++: !g p2+ au-
mfa...@ing.puc.cl * a24 w v++ C++ UL+>++++ P+ L>L++
mfa...@lascar.puc.cl (mail only) * 3- E--- N+++ K+++ W--(+) M- V--
http://torvalds.ing.puc.cl/~mfarah * po+ Y+ t++@ !5 !j R G? tv b+ D++
#include <disclaimer.h> * B- e+* u+ h! f+ r-- n---(+) y?
-----------------------------------*----------------------------------
"La libertad del hombre termina donde empieza la de los que nos mandan."
- Jaume Perich
sl...@cc.usu.edu
>>against Tuvok's existence on grounds of continuity.
>
> Where, please?
>
The midwife at Spock's birth was black.
Kate Orman
>
>Kate Orman (kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au) wrote:
>>And since we *have* seen a black Vulcan (STV), there's no reason to argue
>>against Tuvok's existence on grounds of continuity.
>
>Where, please?
Spock's midwife. (D'you think we should make up a FAQ about this? :-))
Timothy Roy
Wednesday December 07 1994 18:14, George Reese wrote to All:
GR=> From: bo...@winternet.com (George Reese)
GR=> Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
GR=> Though I believe in black Vulcans, though, I am quite certain there
GR=> are no African-American Vulcans (anyone else annoyed with that term
GR=> with respect to Vulcans?).
I believe in black Vulcans. Mainly because there ALREADY has been one.
The midwife in the "Spock's birth" flashback in STV:TFF. I know the film's
painful to watch, but it *IS* canon!
Timothy
George Reese
: Wednesday December 07 1994 18:14, George Reese wrote to All:
: Timothy
You dolt, why don't you read the rest of the post, which was aimed at
a completely different argument for those who simply refuse to believe
there are black Vulcans.
Save your mantra for those insisting there have been none.
Tskennedy
What got me was a reference, I think in E.T., to:
The first African-American-Vulcan
!!!
Talk about getting overly P.C.!
Alara Rogers
>I can handle a black Vulcan....
>
>What got me was a reference, I think in E.T., to:
>The first African-American-Vulcan
The only possibilities are these:
1. A half-Vulcan whose human parent is a citizen of America, descended
from Africans
2. A full Vulcan who was raised on Earth with Earth citizenship, and a
dual national citizenship of America (or some country on the American
continents) and a country on the African continent
Now, you can have a *black* Vulcan, but to get an African-American one
requires stretching logic just a little bit. :-)
Peter Sadlon
What about El Aurians (sp).
There are now black and white humans, El Aurians, Vulcons, and Klingons
are becoming whiter all the time. The only El Aurian we ever met was
Guinan. She was black and we accepted it as such. When a white person
of her species appeared, no one even mentioned the difference in color
because no one cares. The same with Vulcons. Get over it already.
--
******************************************************************************
sad...@cpsc.ucalgary.ca
******************************************************************************
Kate Orman
A friend of mine put his finger on the nub of this debate. He said, "There
aren't any black Vulcans. There aren't any *white* Vulcans. They can
introduce three-legged Vulcans in 'Voyager' if they like. It doesn't
matter, because they're *made up*." :-)
Dimashq
> A friend of mine put his finger on the nub of this debate. He said, "There
> aren't any black Vulcans. There aren't any *white* Vulcans. They can
> introduce three-legged Vulcans in 'Voyager' if they like. It doesn't
> matter, because they're *made up*." :-)
>
Execute this friend of yours! made up! Star trek! Never! <g>
BTW.. If we can have Black Romulans what is wrong with a black vulcan?
(Cmdr. Tomalok in Pegasus. Season VII)
Ramji Venkateswaran IRC: Dimashq
email: Ra...@worldlnk.demon.co.uk
"So you think you can stop me and spit in my eye?
So you think you can love me and leave me to die?" Bohemian Rhapsody
Todd Horowitz
Dimashq <Ra...@worldlnk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Execute this friend of yours! made up! Star trek! Never! <g>
>BTW.. If we can have Black Romulans what is wrong with a black vulcan?
> (Cmdr. Tomalok in Pegasus. Season VII)
Tomolok was played by Andreas Katsoulas, who, whatever his other
virtues, is not black.
-todd
"Being middle class is accepting this conspiracy of lies."
-Michael Moorcock
_Mother London_
Scott Pellegrino
--
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* NonSequiter your facts are uncoordinated... *
* -Nomad Space Probe *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Kingdom of Means
spel...@roch0.eznet.net (Scott Pellegrino) writes:
> Here's a twist how about a white or asian Klingon?
I think these are a little harder to do...take Christopher Lloyd, for
example. With his makeup, you couldn't tell very well. But Asian and
White aren't distinctions in Klingons...in the novelisation of ST III
(Diane Duane?) a Klingon in Kruge's crew was insulted when Savvik
addressed him in the wrong dialect...he replied "you addressed me in (x
lanuguage)...can't you see I am (y Klingon-type)". Although probably
not canon, it makes a good point..."Hispanic" and "White" and "Black"
don't exist on onther planets like Earth...at least not in the same
kinds.
I have no problem with a dark-skinned Vulcan. That's what he is...maybe
an inhabitant of the "Icky D'Ptaang" region or something. But to
categorize an entire planet by saying "all the Vulcans I've seen are
white" is a little off.
Or maybe they'll cop out and say he's Geordi's sixth cousin, twice
removed, to satisfy those Archie Bunkers who represent such a huge
proportion of the ST fan base. [Yes, sarcastic...some can't tell.]
Catt
j.d. silvester
>white" is a little off.
Actually if you look closely, especially in the TOS episodes, not the
movies, all the Vulcans have a green tinge to them. There is no black
nor white, such a divisional concept would be foreign to the Vulcans.
Hell, if they wanted to the Vulcan could be blue! Who cares if the actor
portraying him is black, just look on him as a Vulcan (read that as
Vulcan, not black Vulcan, not white Vulcan). Star Trek is not about racism!
Bernhard Rosenkraenzer
> Here's a twist how about a white or asian Klingon?
There were white Klingons on TOS...
About Asian Klingons: I think it's the same kind of wrong name like an
African-American Vulcan.
But Klingons that look similar to Asians, why not?
StarFleet Admiral Bero,
current Captain of the starship U.S.S. Tawern, NCC-54456
_
.-----________________--_ ________.--'-`--._____
\____==================_) \_'===================`
_,--___.-|__|-.______|=====/ `---'
`---------._ USS - Tawern|
`-._ - - - ,'
\_____,-'
e-mail:
##BE...@Flash.gun.de ##
MrFossil
make them a little more purple tinged.
But seriously folks, I AM really disappointed by the idea of a "Black"
Vulcan. Roddenberry never had a problem with the race notion - Uhura and
Kirk with the first interracial kiss on TV in the 60's no less, and the
tell all about their relationship in Nichelle's book. If Roddenberry had
intended to have races of color on Vulcan, doesn't anybody think he would
have done that on TOS, or at least, in the early days of TNG.
I would say that this is another case of Berman and Co. sucking up to the
bigs at Paramount.
Or, maybe Tuvok is from the equatorial region on Vulcan!
Ladies and Gentlemen! Star Trek as we have known it, is dead - died with
Master Roddenberry.
Long Live Star Trek (or something sort of like it...)
Kate Orman
>In article: <3ea1bv$3...@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au> kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Kate Orman) writes:
>> A friend of mine put his finger on the nub of this debate. He said, "There
>> aren't any black Vulcans. There aren't any *white* Vulcans. They can
>> introduce three-legged Vulcans in 'Voyager' if they like. It doesn't
>> matter, because they're *made up*." :-)
>>
>
>Execute this friend of yours! made up! Star trek! Never! <g>
>BTW.. If we can have Black Romulans what is wrong with a black vulcan?
> (Cmdr. Tomalok in Pegasus. Season VII)
There's a black Vulcan in STV.
I volunteer to write up the FAQ on this one! :-)
Kate Orman
>
>Boy, I know this ain't PC, but I think the green blood in a Vulcan would
>make them a little more purple tinged.
>
>But seriously folks, I AM really disappointed by the idea of a "Black"
>Vulcan. Roddenberry never had a problem with the race notion - Uhura and
>Kirk with the first interracial kiss on TV in the 60's no less, and the
>tell all about their relationship in Nichelle's book. If Roddenberry had
>intended to have races of color on Vulcan, doesn't anybody think he would
>have done that on TOS, or at least, in the early days of TNG.
Hey, Roddenberry wanted to have a female second officer on TOS - and he
didn't get to do that. Who knows what he would've thought of a black
Vulcan? He *was* very proud of having gotten Uhura onto the screen...
>I would say that this is another case of Berman and Co. sucking up to the
>bigs at Paramount.
The big *whats*?!
>Or, maybe Tuvok is from the equatorial region on Vulcan!
That makes more sense...
>Ladies and Gentlemen! Star Trek as we have known it, is dead - died with
>Master Roddenberry.
Star Trek as *you* know it, honey. :-) I watched a bunch of TOS over the
New Year weekend - I'd forgotten how little appeal it has for me, though
you've got to respect some of its groundbreaking stuff. For some of us,
TNG and DS9 *are* Star Trek.
Jim
features as are some other Vulcan's we met in the ST universe. No big deal
in my eyes.
-Jim
Mike Oppenheimer
greg...@lonexc.admin.rl.af.mil (Jonathon Gregory) wrote:
> I don't know how this molehill became a (small) mountain of the black
> Vulcan thread but...
> ..I thought in ST:TOS "Amok Time" Spocks "love interest" was shown
> having a reasonable ammount of skin pigmentation. It's been a while
> since I've seen that episode but I don't think she would be thought
> of as a "caucasion" Vulcan. so.. haven't we seen "black" vulcans before?
>
You are right. So what that Vulcans come in different shades. We have
seen humans, Klingons, Romulans, Cardasians, and Bajorians in differnt
shades. It is only expected that Vulcans have the same variaty.
It just goes to show that the casting department is looking for the best
actors they can, to fill the parts without preconseved notions. Of course
we can not forget that it was GR's philosophy. Even though he did not
envision Voyager he still created the ST universe.
--
Mike Oppenheimer
Technopolis; Student Computing Center
Arizona State University West Campus