Starfleet is Communist
Greg Pallenik
the history of Starfellt, specifically, it's creation and the events
surrounding it. What event (or events) caused the world to band together
and forgoe any aspirations of getting rich and powerful? I seem to recall
a mantion of WWIII in TOS but I'm not sure. Would this have anything to do
with the creation of Starfleet?
Who was involved in it's creation, and how did they convince the
population that this is the way to go? I would imagine that telling the
population that all their money was now worthless would have created quite
a stir. Also, when was starfleet created and how many planets were
involved in it's creation?
Are there people on Earth (other planets, too, but for the sake of
argument, we'll stick with Earth) who aren't a part of Starfleet? What do
they do?
If there is no monetary system on Earth, what do they give the "blue
collar" workers for building the ships? I would imagine that they provide
them with housing and food, etc., but doesn't this sound like what Lennin
and (later) Stallin tried to in the USSR? Everyone will be provided for as
long as they pull their weight. Am I way off base here?
Secondly, I'd like to know why all planets have numbers in their
names. Is is because there are too many planets to give them each
individual names, so the system is named, and each planet is then numbered
according to distance from the sun. Is this correct, or is there another
reason(s)?
Speaking of the sun, why can we never see the sun when the enterprise
is orbiting a planet. The planet can't be that far away from the sun or
else it would be inhabitable for humans.
Well, that all the questions I can think of for now, but I'm sure I'll
have more. I would appreciate it if someone (anyone!) would post a reply
here. Please don't send E-Mail, because I'm on a friends computer and I
can't receive personal replies. Thanks for all your help in advance.
Greg
Carwil James
> I was thinking about ST last night and wondered if anyone knew about
>the history of Starfellt, specifically, it's creation and the events
>surrounding it. What event (or events) caused the world to band together
>and forgoe any aspirations of getting rich and powerful? I seem to recall
Not something truly addressed in ST, but allow me to speculate. Increasing
technological progress finally leaped ahead of the human desire for more
(fusion power?) and the a decision to eliminate hunger, homelessness, etc. no
longer required the First World to give up anything. Faced with these options
and the increasing destructiveness of war and totalitarianism (in the guise of
the post-atomic horror of the 21st century, mankind turned to some sort of
world government. We embarked on a number of interplanetary missions and made
first contact with AC which developed the theoretical basis for warp. (This
development is canon as is the post atomic horror. The first contact and other
human exploration is from Shane Johnson's _Worlds of the Federation and FASA's
_The Federation_.
>a mantion of WWIII in TOS but I'm not sure. Would this have anything to do
>with the creation of Starfleet?
Starfleet was created along the United Federation of Planets. The Federation
was founded by 5 planetary governments with a structure similar to a (very)
strong UN. It has no right to interfere w/ the internal affairs of its members
but does have a declaration of sentient rights. (The novel with the sentient
robots who apply to the Federation has a good discussion of this as does
several technical manuals which include the UFP charter.) The 5 planetary
governments include (as indicated by the Khitomer conference flags)
include Earth (Terra, Sol III), Alpha Centauri (Rigel Kent), Epsilon Eriadni,
and Vulcan. (I can't remember the other one.)
> Who was involved in it's creation, and how did they convince the
>population that this is the way to go? I would imagine that telling the
I think mega-deflation would do the trick. If the cost of most goods was
effectively eliminated (w/ replicators etc.) everything would be VERY cheap.
No public complaints there.
>population that all their money was now worthless would have created quite
>a stir. Also, when was starfleet created and how many planets were
>involved in it's creation?
> Are there people on Earth (other planets, too, but for the sake of
>argument, we'll stick with Earth) who aren't a part of Starfleet? What do
Starfleet, Yes. The UFP, no. Starfleet probably consists of on the order of
1000 ships. The UFP has over 100 sectors. Including starbase personnel,
construction crews, etc. we still are talking the order of a billion or less
sentient employees. Spread out over hundreds of planets, that's not that many
jobs for Earth. *Everyone* on Earth (and above) is in UFP. The Terran gov't
undoubtedly entitles all its members to most of the material and informational
resources they want.
>they do?
> If there is no monetary system on Earth, what do they give the "blue
>collar" workers for building the ships? I would imagine that they provide
>them with housing and food, etc., but doesn't this sound like what Lennin
>and (later) Stallin tried to in the USSR? Everyone will be provided for as
>long as they pull their weight. Am I way off base here?
Yes, presumably there is enough produced in the Federation to provide for
everyone and for a great ammount of extra stuff (like the environmental
monitoring system in ST4:TVH).
>
> Secondly, I'd like to know why all planets have numbers in their
>names. Is is because there are too many planets to give them each
>individual names, so the system is named, and each planet is then numbered
>according to distance from the sun. Is this correct, or is there another
>reason(s)?
Picture a class on Bajor:
OK, today we're going to study Sol's astrography.
Sol consists of one primary star and 10 major planets: Mercury, Venus,
Terra....Miranda (Worlds of the Federation again)
A number of these planets have moons.
The moons of ... are ..., ..., .. and ....
Now, picture this for EVERY inhabited system. Most of them have names
unpronouceable in a given language. This just isn't practical. Undoubtedly,
astronomers from each planet have continued the tradition of naming celestial
objects after their mythological figures, famous people, etc. However,
practical use of these names is extremely biased towards the naming culture.
Using the home names is just impractical. So, a given system takes on the name
of its star and the planets are named with numerals (Earth=Sol III,
Jupiter=Sol V).
>
> Speaking of the sun, why can we never see the sun when the enterprise
>is orbiting a planet. The planet can't be that far away from the sun or
>else it would be inhabitable for humans.
>
Note: we usually see the lit side of a planet. The sun is BEHIND the planet.
Otherwise the planet would be a crescent or noncircular like the sunset in A
Fist Full of Datas. Also, consider how small the sun appears from Earth. It is
very easy to get pictures of the Earth w/o the sun. Most of the planets
visited are mostly cloud covered so they don't reflect the sun. However,
pictures of an ocean planet which are fully lit should have reflections (as
did the photos of Earth shot by the Galileo probe).
>Greg
Fish-E Carwil James
dgeller
in their name... I think the story with that is the name is the name
of the star the planet orbits, and the number designates it's
order/distance from the sun (For instance, Earth could also be called
Sol III, since it is the 3rd planet from the star Sol (as I have heard
our sun called in some non-canon, non-Star Trek sources)
I find backing for this theory in STII:TWOK, when Reliant thinks it is
searching Ceti Alpha VI, but really is looking at Ceti Alpha V, whose
orbit was disrupted by the explosion of CA VI.
Geoff Sowrey - Son Of Worf
In article <gp2001-01...@m248-108.bgsu.edu>, gp2...@andy.bgsu.edu (Greg Pallenik) writes:
> I was thinking about ST last night and wondered if anyone knew about
> the history of Starfellt, specifically, it's creation and the events
> surrounding it. What event (or events) caused the world to band together
> and forgoe any aspirations of getting rich and powerful? I seem to recall
> with the creation of Starfleet?
As memory serves, the Eugenics War erupted in the late 1990's (which was went
Khan was in power -- someone correct me if I'm wrong), and the what was left of
the Earth wasn't a helluva lot, so the remaining nations banded together for
support. There was a lot of anarchism ("kill all the lawyers -- 'Encounter At
Farpoint') and mayhem until around 2150 (?) when things began to straighten
out. The system implemented was based in a socialist system I believe, but I
could be wrong.
> Who was involved in it's creation, and how did they convince the
> population that this is the way to go? I would imagine that telling the
> population that all their money was now worthless would have created quite
> a stir. Also, when was starfleet created and how many planets were
> involved in it's creation?
Earth's first contact was with Alpha Centauri. Not long after, the Vulcans
came into play, along with the Tellarites (sp?). There may have been one other
race, but I can't remember it. These three were the original basis for the UFP.
> Are there people on Earth (other planets, too, but for the sake of
> argument, we'll stick with Earth) who aren't a part of Starfleet? What do
> they do?
There are planets that aren't a part of the UFP, though they trade with them
and provide facilities for Starfleet crew on shore leave (i.e. Haven).
> If there is no monetary system on Earth, what do they give the "blue
> collar" workers for building the ships? I would imagine that they provide
> them with housing and food, etc., but doesn't this sound like what Lennin
> and (later) Stallin tried to in the USSR? Everyone will be provided for as
> long as they pull their weight. Am I way off base here?
As has been mentioned more times than I dare count, poverty is a thing of the
past. Everyone has been provided for. Housing, clothing, basic necessities are
all a "right" (I guess) for every resident of Earth. It's a variant on what
Communism was trying, but the "perfect" version of Communism would have everyone
being the same (i.e. no rank), yet in ST, we see that rank still applies.
> Secondly, I'd like to know why all planets have numbers in their
> names. Is is because there are too many planets to give them each
> individual names, so the system is named, and each planet is then numbered
> according to distance from the sun. Is this correct, or is there another
> reason(s)?
>
This is Starfleet / Earth naming. Other worlds might call Earth by the name
SOL III instead. The planets that have names in them (i.e. Orion IV) have
native names that are sometimes hard to spell or hard to pronounce. It would
seem that the Earth likes putting their names on everything.
> Speaking of the sun, why can we never see the sun when the enterprise
> is orbiting a planet. The planet can't be that far away from the sun or
> else it would be inhabitable for humans.
>
Why would you want to see the sun?
> Well, that all the questions I can think of for now, but I'm sure I'll
> have more. I would appreciate it if someone (anyone!) would post a reply
> here. Please don't send E-Mail, because I'm on a friends computer and I
> can't receive personal replies. Thanks for all your help in advance.
>
> Greg
Well, I may not have answered everything, but I tried!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
gbso...@cayley.uwaterloo.ca
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff "Son Of Worf" Sowrey | This is a test of my Emergency Broadcast
2A Computer Science | System. This is only a test:
Univ. Of Waterloo | AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
| Had this been an actual emergency, the sound
--------------------------------| you just hear would have been followed by a
| crazed lunatic running through your living
"The needs of the many must | room with underwear over his head, who would
outweigh the needs of the few, | then run upstairs and dive out a window into
or the one." - STII:TWOK | a Mr. Turtle pool full of lime Jell-o.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Pallenik
fi...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Carwil James) wrote:
>
> >a mantion of WWIII in TOS but I'm not sure. Would this have anything to do
> >with the creation of Starfleet?
> Starfleet was created along the United Federation of Planets. The Federation
> was founded by 5 planetary governments with a structure similar to a (very)
> strong UN. It has no right to interfere w/ the internal affairs of its members
> but does have a declaration of sentient rights. (The novel with the sentient
> robots who apply to the Federation has a good discussion of this as does
> several technical manuals which include the UFP charter.) The 5 planetary
> governments include (as indicated by the Khitomer conference flags)
> include Earth (Terra, Sol III), Alpha Centauri (Rigel Kent), Epsilon Eriadni,
> and Vulcan. (I can't remember the other one.)
It would seem to me that Starfleet would have been created prior to the UFP
by Terrans. Terrans want to "boldly go..." so they create Starfleet to
explore, ecounter the four planets and create the UFP. Doesn't this sound
like a more plausable explanation or was your idea cannon? Also, Picard
often refers to "The Federation" in TNG. Who does he receive orders from,
Starfleet or the UFP?
> > If there is no monetary system on Earth, what do they give the "blue
> >collar" workers for building the ships? I would imagine that they provide
> >them with housing and food, etc., but doesn't this sound like what Lennin
> >and (later) Stallin tried to in the USSR? Everyone will be provided for as
> >long as they pull their weight. Am I way off base here?
> Yes, presumably there is enough produced in the Federation to provide for
> everyone and for a great ammount of extra stuff (like the environmental
> monitoring system in ST4:TVH).
Let's say that the Federation (or Starfleet) want's to buy something froma
planet not in the UFP. What do they use to pay the planet? Is it a
bartering system? What do they use to pay independent cargo ships for
transporting Federations goods?
On a totally unrelated topic, can someone list the ranks a federation
officer would go through from highest to lowest? I believe Acting Ensogn
is the lowest rank possible and Admiral is the hightest, but what is in
between? What is the rank for Doctors and other non-officer personell? Do
all graduates from SFAcad. start off on the "officer path" or do they
specialize in the Academy to be Engineers, Transport cheifs, Security, etc.
If someone decides to become, say, security personell, could they ever
become captain? What is the rank right below first officer? Has anyone
ever heard of the rank "Commodore"?
Finally, my last question has to do with a relatively minor character I've
only heard mentioned a few times, and the only one that comes to mind is
the book "Prime Directive". Who is the character known as Decker? Can
someone give me a list of his appearances, and how he fits into, well,
everything? His name is so familiar, but I can't quite place his relative
importance in the ST universe.
Thanks for everyones help and, again, as I am using a friends computer, I
cannot accept presonal replies. Please post any answers you may have.
Again, thanks.
Greg
The Crazy Archivist
>the history of Starfellt, specifically, it's creation and the events
>surrounding it. What event (or events) caused the world to band together
>and forgoe any aspirations of getting rich and powerful? I seem to recall
>a mantion of WWIII in TOS but I'm not sure. Would this have anything to do
>with the creation of Starfleet?
As with many things in Trek not specifically stated in episodes, there
are many versions of chains of events that have led up to the future we see.
I would assume that much of what happened could be attributed to contact
with alien races in one way or another.
> Who was involved in it's creation, and how did they convince the
>population that this is the way to go? I would imagine that telling the
>population that all their money was now worthless would have created quite
>a stir. Also, when was starfleet created and how many planets were
>involved in it's creation?
You have to keep in mind that Starfleet is part of the Federation of Planets.
I recall there being five founding planets (Earth and Vulcan are the only
ones I remember.) Starfleet is merely the Federation's military and
"field science" arm. I would think that the Earth-Romulan war might
have helped establish Starfleet (anyone know if others were with us
in the fighting or were we on our own?)
> Are there people on Earth (other planets, too, but for the sake of
>argument, we'll stick with Earth) who aren't a part of Starfleet? What do
>they do?
Anyone who applies and is accepted is in Starfleet. It is on an individual
level.
> If there is no monetary system on Earth, what do they give the "blue
>collar" workers for building the ships? I would imagine that they provide
>them with housing and food, etc., but doesn't this sound like what Lennin
>and (later) Stallin tried to in the USSR? Everyone will be provided for as
>long as they pull their weight. Am I way off base here?
In "Encounter at Farpoint" Beverly buys some fabric and tells the salesman
to bill her account (words to that effect.) There have been several
references (but I can't recall others now) to "credits".
>
> Secondly, I'd like to know why all planets have numbers in their
>names. Is is because there are too many planets to give them each
>individual names, so the system is named, and each planet is then numbered
>according to distance from the sun. Is this correct, or is there another
>reason(s)?
I think that this "number" system is used along with individual planet
names. A system-planet number style may be the formal designation,
but a name may be used for more casual situations.
>
> Speaking of the sun, why can we never see the sun when the enterprise
>is orbiting a planet. The planet can't be that far away from the sun or
>else it would be inhabitable for humans.
It has happened (often when the sun was important somehow), but that
would be just something else that would have to go in a scene and
possibly add expense to the effects department.
>
> Well, that all the questions I can think of for now, but I'm sure I'll
>have more. I would appreciate it if someone (anyone!) would post a reply
>here. Please don't send E-Mail, because I'm on a friends computer and I
>can't receive personal replies. Thanks for all your help in advance.
>
>Greg
One problem I think you might be having is simply confusing the Federation
and Starfleet. Starfleet is part of the Federation and subservient (sp?)
to the Federation (such as the US military is subject to a civilian
government.)
Hope this all means something to you.
Paul "Joe Friday" Stacy (not net.police) Buffalo State College, New York
STA...@SNYBUFVA.BITNET (Buffalo State College VAX) JUST THE
jfr...@westmark.stanford.edu (Stanford, California UNIX) "VAX", MA'AM!
Disclaimer: This isn't the opinion of the school, police, Chief of Detective
Staff Brown, Planet Spaceball, Starfleet Command, or the Pentagon.
DAN MORERA
>
>On a totally unrelated topic, can someone list the ranks a federation
>officer would go through from highest to lowest? I believe Acting Ensogn
>is the lowest rank possible and Admiral is the hightest, but what is in
>between? What is the rank for Doctors and other non-officer personell? Do
>all graduates from SFAcad. start off on the "officer path" or do they
>specialize in the Academy to be Engineers, Transport cheifs, Security, etc.
> If someone decides to become, say, security personell, could they ever
>become captain? What is the rank right below first officer? Has anyone
>ever heard of the rank "Commodore"?
>
It seems to be similar to the way the Navy does it today:
Rank Navy Insignia
Ensign [1 gold bar]
Lieutenant (Junior Grade) [1 silver bar] ** I have never heard of this one in ST
Lieutenant [2 silver bars]
Lieutenant Commander [gold oak leaf]
Commander [silver oak leaf]
Captain [silver eagle]
Commodore [1 star] ** Remember Comm. Decker in TOS 'Doomsday Machine'?
Rear Admiral [2 stars]
Vice Admiral [3 stars]
Admiral [4 stars]
(Fleet Admiral) [5 stars]
Also, Doctors, Engineers, and such also hold a Starfleet Officer rank. Crewmen are
always called, simply, 'Crewmen', but I have heard 'Crewman first-class', etc.
Concerning ST insignia, anyone want to take a shot at the insignia used in TOS?
Is it just the number of braids on the sleeves?
---
*********************************************************************
* "Could be worse -- could be raining." * Daniel Morera *
*********************************************************************
* * mor...@pts4.pts.mot.com *
*********************************************************************
Carwil James
Earth's first contact was with Andorians in the 21st Century. Or
so sayeth the (non-canon) novel _Spock's World_:
Referring to the Vulcan first contact of 2065 (A disabled Vulcan ship
found by the UNSS Amity), Spock says:
"The inhabitants of Terra had had a chance to lose their xenophobia
somewhat, by meeting the Andorians peacefully, earlier on in that century: so
the existence of Vulcans, and Vulcan, came as less of a shock to them than it
might have." (p.46)
Fish-E Carwil James
Mike Monahan
>In article 021292...@m248-109.bgsu.edu, gp2...@andy.bgsu.edu (Greg Pallenik) writes:
>>
>>On a totally unrelated topic, can someone list the ranks a federation
>>officer would go through from highest to lowest?
>>
>
>It seems to be similar to the way the Navy does it today:
>Rank Navy Insignia
>Ensign [1 gold bar]
>Lieutenant (Junior Grade) [1 silver bar] ** I have never heard of this one in ST
>Lieutenant [2 silver bars]
>Lieutenant Commander [gold oak leaf]
>Commander [silver oak leaf]
>Captain [silver eagle]
>Commodore [1 star] ** Remember Comm. Decker in TOS 'Doomsday Machine'?
>Rear Admiral [2 stars]
>Vice Admiral [3 stars]
>Admiral [4 stars]
>(Fleet Admiral) [5 stars]
>
>Also, Doctors, Engineers, and such also hold a Starfleet Officer rank. Crewmen are
>always called, simply, 'Crewmen', but I have heard 'Crewman first-class', etc.
>
>Concerning ST insignia, anyone want to take a shot at the insignia used in TOS?
>Is it just the number of braids on the sleeves?
>
>---
>*********************************************************************
>* "Could be worse -- could be raining." * Daniel Morera *
>*********************************************************************
>* * mor...@pts4.pts.mot.com *
>*********************************************************************
>
Ensign Single gold circle
LT Junior Grade One Gold Circle, One Empty Gold Circle
LT. Two Gold Circles
LT. Commander Two Gold Circle, One Empty Gold Circle
Commander Three Gold Circles
Captain Four Gold Circles
I believe during the first season Warf was a LT. Junior Grade.
As far as TOS goes, I'm pretty sure it was indeed the braids on
the sleeve.
By the way, it's good to see so much Troi bashing going on.
Keep up the good work!!!
Subscribe to Alt.useless.sex-object.stereotype.troi.die-die-die
The Analog Person-(Michael J. Monahan) ana...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Suffering is the origin of conciousness-Dostoyevsky
We will pay the price, but we will not count the cost-Neil Peart
Well, the silly party has won. I believe this is largely due to
the number of votes cast!- Monty Python's Flying Circus
Allen J. Newton
>On a totally unrelated topic, can someone list the ranks a federation
>officer would go through from highest to lowest? I believe Acting Ensogn
>is the lowest rank possible and Admiral is the hightest, but what is in
>between? What is the rank for Doctors and other non-officer personell? Do
>all graduates from SFAcad. start off on the "officer path" or do they
>specialize in the Academy to be Engineers, Transport cheifs, Security, etc.
>If someone decides to become, say, security personell, could they ever
>become captain? What is the rank right below first officer? Has anyone
>ever heard of the rank "Commodore"?
Star Fleet ranks parallel present-day US NAVY ranks (in the officer category,
anyway). They are:
O-1 Ensign
O-2 Lt. Junior Grade (J.G.)
O-3 Lieutenant
O-4 Lt. Commander
O-5 Commander
O-6 Captain
O-7 Rear Admiral (Lower-Half)*
O-8 Rear Admiral
O-9 Vice Admiral
O-10 Admiral
O-11 Fleet Admiral
Ranks O-7 through O-11 are equivalent to 1-thru-5-star Generals in other
services, and are referred to as Flag Officers. Further note that a Captain
in the US NAVY (and Star Fleet) is an O-6 (Command rank), but is an O-4 in
the other service branches (which causes confusion among the uninitiated).
Commodore is a war-time rank, and is the designation of O-7(*). It is not
used during peace-time (like, present-day USA and ST:TNG -- during most
of ST:TOS, Star Fleet was at was with the Klingon Empire, and that is why
you see the rank of Commodore being used, as it was in the NAVY during WWII).
The title of "Acting"... anything has to do with performing the duties of
that office, without the official recognition of having that office. In
the case of Wesley Crusher in ST:TNG, prior to his Field Commission he was
promoted to "Acting Ensign", which meant that he was given everything he
needed to do the job of an Ensign on board the Enterprise (i.e. a
communicator badge, and the privilege/duty of manning the conn). However,
this was without the official recognition from the rest of the crew as
being an Ensign. In a NAVAL context, that would mean that lower-ranked
crew members were not required to salute him, for instance.
In STII:TWOK, Scotty's nephew Peter Preston had the rank of Midshipman,
which is basically an Officer Cadet rank (prior to graduation and
Presidential Commission -- by the way, graduation from the Academy does not
constitute automatic promotion/commission to Ensign. In the NAVY, there
is a yearly quota, and some graduates are not granted commissions by our
President, and I would wager the same is true for Star Fleet Academy, unless
they apply their quotas on Academy entrance...)
>Finally, my last question has to do with a relatively minor character I've
>only heard mentioned a few times, and the only one that comes to mind is
>the book "Prime Directive". Who is the character known as Decker? Can
>someone give me a list of his appearances, and how he fits into, well,
>everything? His name is so familiar, but I can't quite place his relative
>importance in the ST universe.
If memory serves, there are two men named Decker in the ST universe. In
ST:TOS, I seem to remember a Commodore Decker who appeared in one or two
episodes (Possibly the one with M-5).
The other is Captain Decker, the new Commanding Officer of the newly-
refitted USS Enterprise in STI:TMP, who was demoted (in position only,
not rank) to Executive Officer (1st officer), second-in-command to
Admiral Kirk for the mission to intercept V-ger. He was to be reinstated
following that mission, but "became" part of V-ger, and has not been seen
or heard from, since. There is never any mention of whether or not this
Captain Decker is in any way related to Commodore Decker of ST:TOS.
As an aside, another interesting aspect of rank is that the Commanding
Officer (CO) of a ship is usually referred to as "Captain", regardless of
actual rank, and the Executive Officer (XO) as "Commander", again,
regardless of actual rank. I believe this was demonstrated in STI:TMP,
as well.
I hope this answered a couple of your questions!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen J. Newton BASIS International Ltd, (505)-345-5232
5901 Jefferson NE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87109
unmvax!ane...@bbx.basis.com
*** Standard disclaimers apply ***
James Matthew Plutnicki
>
>If memory serves, there are two men named Decker in the ST universe. In
>ST:TOS, I seem to remember a Commodore Decker who appeared in one or two
>episodes (Possibly the one with M-5).
>
>The other is Captain Decker, the new Commanding Officer of the newly-
>refitted USS Enterprise in STI:TMP, who was demoted (in position only,
>not rank) to Executive Officer (1st officer), second-in-command to
>Admiral Kirk for the mission to intercept V-ger. He was to be reinstated
>following that mission, but "became" part of V-ger, and has not been seen
>or heard from, since. There is never any mention of whether or not this
>Captain Decker is in any way related to Commodore Decker of ST:TOS.
>
>As an aside, another interesting aspect of rank is that the Commanding
>Officer (CO) of a ship is usually referred to as "Captain", regardless of
>actual rank, and the Executive Officer (XO) as "Commander", again,
>regardless of actual rank. I believe this was demonstrated in STI:TMP,
>as well.
Commodore Decker appeared in the ST:TOS episode of "The Doomsday Machine"
and was in command of the starship Constellation.
In ST:TMP, I believe in the conversation that Admiral Kirk had with
Captain Decker inferred (if not outright said, I can't remember) that
Kirk taking over would result in a temporary grade reduction to Commander.
And nowhere in the movie was Kirk referred to as Captain (again as I recall)
but if he was then it would follow that Kirk had a temporary grade
reduction to Captain as well.
In ST, it is unusual for an Admiral to be in command of a single starship
and in those instances he is still refered to as "Admiral". Commodore
Decker, though in command of a starship, was also still refered to as
Commodore. I don't believe that your statement (not meant to flame) that
CO's and XO's are refered to as "Captain" and "Commander" is correct
in the ST universe...
--
* James M. Plutnicki (plu...@rpi.edu) * "There are no truths, only facts
* Computer Systems Engineering Major * blurred by opinion." --Me
* Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute * "Confucius say,'Virginity like balloon
* OS/2 advocate and user...:) * one prick all gone'."
Scott Alfter
>services, and are referred to as Flag Officers. Further note that a Captain
>in the US NAVY (and Star Fleet) is an O-6 (Command rank), but is an O-4 in
>the other service branches (which causes confusion among the uninitiated).
Not quite...an Air Force/Army/Marine captain is an O-3 or an O-3E, not
an O-4. Here's the complete rundown:
Full Name Abbrev. Pay Grd
================== ======= ======== _
Second Lieutenant 2Lt O-1/O-1E |
First Lieutenant 1Lt O-2/O-2E |> company-grade officer
Captain Capt O-3/O-3E _|
Major Maj O-4 |
Lieutenant Colonel LtCol O-5 |> field-grade officer
Colonel Col O-6 _|
Brigadier General BrigGen O-7 |
Major General MajGen O-8 |
Lieutenant General LtGen O-9 |> flag officer
General Gen O-10 |
General of the varies O-11 _|
[insert service here]
Note that two sets of pay grades apply to company-grade officers; the
ones ending in "E" are the ones used for prior-enlisted personnel.
They get paid a little more than the others. Also note that the
abbreviations I listed are the ones used in the Air Force (or are
reasonably close) since that's what I know (my father's a major in the
Air Force and I took three years of AFJROTC in high school and one
year of AFROTC as a college freshman).
Is this as clear as mud yet? :-)
_/_ Scott Alfter Internet: sknk...@cs.unlv.edu
/ v \ Call the Skunk Works BBS today! Ask me about SoftDAC--digital
(IIGS( (702) 894-9619 300-14400 V.32bis audio for your Apple IIe/IIc!
\_^_/ --==## "Apple II Forever" is a trademark of Apple Computer, Inc. ##==--
Robert Whitehead
|> If memory serves, there are two men named Decker in the ST universe. In
|> ST:TOS, I seem to remember a Commodore Decker who appeared in one or two
|> episodes (Possibly the one with M-5).
"The Doomsday Machine" - the club-shaped planet-killer. Commodore Decker was
the one who piloted a shuttlecraft down the thing's throat and committed
suicide, giving Kirk the idea of taking the crippled starship Decker commanded
out the same way and destroying it.
|> The other is Captain Decker, the new Commanding Officer of the newly-
|> refitted USS Enterprise in STI:TMP, who was demoted (in position only,
|> not rank) to Executive Officer (1st officer), second-in-command to
|> Admiral Kirk for the mission to intercept V-ger.
I beg to differ; remember when Kirk told Decker he was "taking over the center
seat?" Decker was told he would have a "temporary reduction in grade to
Commander."
Ailia also noticed this when she stepped off the turbolift: "Decker!...
_Commander_ Decker???"
I'm not certain which book it's in (perhaps _The Lost Years_), but I seem to
remember reading that Will Decker (ST:TMP) _is_ the son of Matt Decker ("The
Doomsday Machine"); Kirk got Will Decker command of the _Enterprise_ while it
was being refitted as payment of a debt to Commodore Decker. I'll go back and
reread it.
|> As an aside, another interesting aspect of rank is that the Commanding
|> Officer (CO) of a ship is usually referred to as "Captain", regardless of
|> actual rank, and the Executive Officer (XO) as "Commander", again,
|> regardless of actual rank. I believe this was demonstrated in STI:TMP,
|> as well.
Actually, the commanding officer of a ship is usually referred to as "Skipper;"
if he happens to _be_ a Captain (0-7), so much the better. The XO is usually
referred to as the Exec, regardless of rank; not Commander, as you suggest.
When JFK was a Lieutenant aboard the PT-109, he was the CO and was called
"Skipper."
As a parallel to today's military, a Marine Corps Captain (O-4) traveling aboard
a Navy ship is called "Major;" he is bumped in rank one step out of courtesy to
the Skipper, whether or not the Skipper is an O-7. There can only be one
Captain aboard ship if it ain't the Skipper, then no one is.
ST has been unfailingly consistent in its treatment of Naval rank; it parallels
the present-day conventions.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Robert C. Whitehead |Disclaimer: My mind is so fragmented by
| Intergraph Corporation |random excursions into a wilderness of
| Mapping Sciences Division |abstractions and incipient ideas that the
| Technical Documentation |practical purposes of the moment are often
| Mailpath: b...@medrcw.b17b |submerged in my consciousness and I don't
| Phone: (205) 730-1923 |know what I'm doing. My employers certainly
| --=bob=-- |have no idea.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Real World: b...@medrcw.b17b.ingr.com
DAN MORERA
>In article <6...@bbx.basis.com> ane...@bbx.basis.com (Allen J. Newton) writes:
>>
>>There is never any mention of whether or not this
>>Captain Decker is in any way related to Commodore Decker of ST:TOS.
>>
I'm pretty sure they mentioned that that Captain Decker was the son of Commodore
Decker from TOS' 'Doomsday Machine'.
Since we are talking about ST:TMP, has anyone seen or heard of the bald babe that
Decker had an earlier 'encounter' with? What was her name and where was she from?
You think we may find these sex machines in TNG?
I wonder what Troi would say.... :-)
CXMP
> Secondly, I'd like to know why all planets have numbers in their
>names. Is is because there are too many planets to give them each
>individual names, so the system is named, and each planet is then numbered
>according to distance from the sun. Is this correct, or is there another
>reason(s)?
>
Once your in the system, you scan for planets and name them according to
how far they are from the star.
> Speaking of the sun, why can we never see the sun when the enterprise
>is orbiting a planet. The planet can't be that far away from the sun or
>else it would be inhabitable for humans.
>
The only starset scene I can think of is the scene at the end of
"A Fistful of Data's".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
! Address as above or use
Martin Phipps (aka Deja Dude) ! LO...@hep.physics.mcgill.ca or simply
! MUHEP::LOULA if you're on a VAX
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Any simularity between myself and a sane individual is pure coincidence.
Paul Botts
>anyway). They are:
>
> O-1 Ensign
> O-2 Lt. Junior Grade (J.G.)
> O-3 Lieutenant
> O-4 Lt. Commander
> O-5 Commander
> O-6 Captain
> O-7 Rear Admiral (Lower-Half)*
> O-8 Rear Admiral
> O-9 Vice Admiral
> O-10 Admiral
> O-11 Fleet Admiral
>
>Ranks O-7 through O-11 are equivalent to 1-thru-5-star Generals in other
>services, and are referred to as Flag Officers. Further note that a Captain
>in the US NAVY (and Star Fleet) is an O-6 (Command rank), but is an O-4 in
>the other service branches (which causes confusion among the uninitiated).
Close, but actually an Army captain is O-3, O-4 is a major.
>As an aside, another interesting aspect of rank is that the Commanding
>Officer (CO) of a ship is usually referred to as "Captain", regardless of
>actual rank, and the Executive Officer (XO) as "Commander", again,
>regardless of actual rank. I believe this was demonstrated in STI:TMP,
>as well.
I hadn't heard of that as far as the exec officer, but you're right
about the commanding officer. In a navy ship, whoever is in charge is
the "skipper" or "captain," even if he or she doesn't happen to have the
formal rank of Captain (smaller vessels like subs or frigates or PT
boats or what have you are often, in wartime, commanded by officers with
the formal rank of commander, lt. commander or even lt., but on board
the ship they are still addressed as "captain").
This important distinction is between _rank_ and _position_. For
example, on the Enterprise, the _position_ (or job) of Chief Engineer
could be filled by an officer with any of two or three different ranks
(indeed Geordi got a promotion at some point to lt. commander, but his
position is the same). When O'Brien is addressed as "chief" is refers to
his position (transport chief), not his formal rank.
Perry Reed
> In article d...@rpi.edu, plu...@aix.rpi.edu (James Matthew Plutnicki) writes:
> >In article <6...@bbx.basis.com> ane...@bbx.basis.com (Allen J. Newton) writes:
> >>
> >>There is never any mention of whether or not this
> >>Captain Decker is in any way related to Commodore Decker of ST:TOS.
> >>
>
> I'm pretty sure they mentioned that that Captain Decker was the son of Commodore
> Decker from TOS' 'Doomsday Machine'.
>
> Since we are talking about ST:TMP, has anyone seen or heard of the bald babe that
> Decker had an earlier 'encounter' with? What was her name and where was she from?
> You think we may find these sex machines in TNG?
>
> I wonder what Troi would say.... :-)
>
any Deltans in TNG that I know of, but the Federation Prez from STVI is
a Deltan according to the novel...
-.---. -.---. .-------------------------------.
|---' |---' . | Perry Reed |
| .=..-..-.. . | `. .=..=..-| | re...@hpcc01.hp.com |
' `- ' ' `-| ' ``- `- `-` |"Underachiever and proud of it"|
-' '-------------------------------'
cs202144
found a way to attract all matter like a magnet instead of just metals. All
substances or perhaps all *normal* substances will be attracted equally.
So perhaps there is a 1/2 g magnet of polarity to attract people towards the
deck and a -1/2 g pushing down from the ceiling?
The decks could be laid out like so
- 1/2 g { Deck N
+ 1/2 g {
{
{ Space between decks
{
- 1/2 g { Deck N-1
+ 1/2 g {
{
{ Space between decks
{
.
.
.
- 1/2 g { Deck 1
+ 1/2 g {
At least it looks good while I'm typing it now, but I'm sure someone will
find a flaw ;)
A.J.Madison
> In article d...@rpi.edu, plu...@aix.rpi.edu (James Matthew Plutnicki) writes:
>
> Since we are talking about ST:TMP, has anyone seen or heard of the bald babe that
> Decker had an earlier 'encounter' with? What was her name and where was she from?
> You think we may find these sex machines in TNG?
>
> I wonder what Troi would say.... :-)
Ilia was portrayed by Persis Khambatta (sp?). She was a Miss India (1978?) or
something like that (eg. a contestant in one of those beauty contests to pick
the most beautiful woman for the entire planet...)
About the only thing I have seen her in since was Nighthawks (1981) as one
of Rutger Hauer's fellow terrorists. Yes, her hair had grown back by then.
She really did not get to do much, and her costume was in early 70's combat
fatigues.
As for Troi, she'd say "How do you feel about sex?"
And Ilia (or a fellow deltan) would respond with, "I have taken an oath not
to have relations with sexually immature species, but for you, I'll make an
exception..."
(If I recall Gene's Novelisation correctly, yes non-cannon, intercourse
between a Deltan and a human was fatal for the homo sapien. But what a way
to go! Supposedly this was the reason Decker left Delta in such a big hurry
and gives much more depth to why he didn't say goodbye, because that's not
what he might have said... However, we wouldn't have had him in the movie
then.)
--
when everyone is out to get you, being paranoid is just good thinking.
- Dr. Johnny Fever <in other words, standard disclaimer>
A.J. Madison a...@sequoia.com
Sequoia Systems Inc.
Brad Barton
>> / hpcc01:rec.arts.startrek.current / mor...@pts4.pts.mot.com (DAN MORERA) / 5:29 am Dec 4, 1992 /
>> Decker had an earlier 'encounter' with? What was her name and where was she from?
>any Deltans in TNG that I know of, but the Federation Prez from STVI is
>a Deltan according to the novel...
If you are asking about the actress, her name was Persis Khambatta. I think
she's been in a few things since then, but I can't seem to remember anything
off the top of my head.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Brad Barton -- br...@cmptrc.lonestar.org |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "No matter how hard you throw a dead fish into the water, it still won't |
| swim." -- Marian Stevens |
| "I never lie when I have sand in my shoes, Commodore." -- Geordi LaForge |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Toland
>If you are asking about the actress, her name was Persis Khambatta. I think
>she's been in a few things since then, but I can't seem to remember anything
>off the top of my head.
She was in an episode of McGyver, as a widow living with her son near
the border of Afghanistan, and she also played a terrorist in a movie
"Nighthawks" with Sylvester Stallone. I don't know of any other
appearences offhand. IMO, she looks *much* more striking without hair.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
d...@phlan.sw.stratus.com | "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
| that doon with."
x91and...@gw.wmich.edu
Execs are called "Commander" and another guy told him he was wrong, that people
are ALWAYS called by their correct rank.
In ST:TMP the first thing that I noticed (besides Scotty's gray hair and beer
belly) was that everyone called Kirk "Captain" as soon as he took over the
Enterprise. It was probably just out of habit, though, and I'm sure that when
other Admirals take command of ships thay're called "Admiral."
BTW, I still the guy who designed ST:TMP costumes should be put to sleep!
-- Karl Anderson, Western Michigan University
Mike Monahan
Wrong! The person who commands a vessel is addressed as:
"Captain"
For example, submarines are often commanded by commanders, but they
are generally addressed as "Captain" (or "Sir"). When Kirk took over the
big E everyone was perfectly correct when they called him "Captain."
The Analog Person-(Michael J. Monahan) ana...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Suffering is the origin of conciousness-Dostoyevsky
We will pay the price, but we will not count the cost-Neil Peart
There is nothing an agnostic can't do if he doesn't know
whether he believes in it or not.- Graham Chapman
James Matthew Plutnicki
Uh no, it wasn't out of habit, he was a captain at that point. That is why
Decker is demoted to Commander, Kirk was reinstalled as Captain. After
ST:TMP, he continues as Captain for another mission. I think I read that
somewhere and it makes sense. Kirk continues as Captain for awhile, then
the ship is re-commisions as a training ship with Spock as Captain and
Kirk returns to the Admiralty.
And I agree, the costumer should be forced to watch reruns of Gilligan's
Island over..and over...and over....
--
* James M. Plutnicki (plu...@rpi.edu) * "There are no truths, only facts *
* Computer Systems Engineering Major * blurred by opinion." --Me *
* Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute * "Confucius say,'Virginity like *
* OS/2 advocate and user...:) * balloon one prick all gone'." *
Rene Magritte
>In article <1992Dec10....@gw.wmich.edu> x91and...@gw.wmich.edu writes:
>>I just read where one guy thought that all CO's are called "Captain" and all
>>Execs are called "Commander" and another guy told him he was wrong, that people
>>are ALWAYS called by their correct rank.
>>In ST:TMP the first thing that I noticed (besides Scotty's gray hair and beer
>>belly) was that everyone called Kirk "Captain" as soon as he took over the
>>Enterprise. It was probably just out of habit, though, and I'm sure that when
>>other Admirals take command of ships thay're called "Admiral."
>>BTW, I still the guy who designed ST:TMP costumes should be put to sleep!
>>
>> -- Karl Anderson, Western Michigan University
>>
> Wrong! The person who commands a vessel is addressed as:
> "Captain"
> For example, submarines are often commanded by commanders, but they
>are generally addressed as "Captain" (or "Sir"). When Kirk took over the
>big E everyone was perfectly correct when they called him "Captain."
Another common source of confusion is that by both US military
and TNG "pseudo-military" convention , both Lt. Commanders and