O'Brien's rank insignia
D. Baron
degraded just before he transfered to DS9. Back on his old days at the
Enterprise he used to have one and a half points as rank insignia (at
least that's what I guess) and on DS9 he appears just with a half
point or so. I don't know exactly if it was a degradation from one and
a half to half but it was a degradation for sure. Unfortunately I
missed the episode (if there was any) which mentioned that fact, so
please tell me if there is any or any other explanation for his sudden
loss of points.
Steady as she goes... Guenther
ST Brian
Baron) writes:
The one and a half pips (indicating Lt. Junior Grade) on TNG was a simple
wardrobe error. O'Brien is not and has never been an officer. He is an
enlisted man, "chief" by rank, and by title (Transporter Chief, Chief of
Operations). Worf's father even called him a "fellow enlisted man".
The single black pip on his uniform in DS9 indicates one grade lower than
ensign. There is no rank lower than ensign in the officer ranks, so this
makes him a senior enlisted man (the equivalent of a Master Chief or
Warrant Officer in today's military).
End of story. No demotion involved (in fact, if you remember, he called
his transfer to DS9 a promotion).
Brian
ST Brian
> I don't know, if someone has recognized it, but O'Brien was obviously
> degraded just before he transfered to DS9. Back on his old days at the
> Enterprise he used to have one and a half points as rank insignia (at
> least that's what É g7ess) and on DS9 he appears just with a half
> point or so. I don't know exactly if it was a degradation from one and
> a half to half but it was a degradation for sure. Unfortunately I
> missed the episode (if there was any) which mentioned that fact, so
> please tell me if there is any or any other explanation for his sudden
> loss of points.
The one and a half pips (indicating Lt. Junior Grade) on TNG was a simple
AKIS, RICHARD JOHN
I think that the character of O'Brien has been treated inconsistently-
more so than just your comment about a "wardrobe error" would suggest.
We have seen him man the con on the Enterprise (a true officer's position)
and we know that he was the tactical officer on another ship
(see "the Wounded", an episode which aired after the one with the
comments from Worf's father did). Tactical officer is LIEUTENANT
Worf's occupation on the Enterprise. He has been treated as both an
officer and an enlisted man and it seems to me that they only
made a definitive choice when they put him on DS9. I don't recall
O'Brien calling his transfer a promotion, but I do remember reading
that Colm Meaney, who plays O'Brien, was perplexed by the reduction in
the number of pips on his uniform. This implies to me that even he
wasn't sure what rank his character actually had.
Transporter "chief" in itself doesn't imply "chief petty officer"
any more than "chief" engineer does.
R.A.
ST Brian
(AKIS, RICHARD JOHN) writes:
> I think that the character of O'Brien has been treated inconsistently-
> more so than just your comment about a "wardrobe error" would suggest.
> We have seen him man the con on the Enterprise (a true officer's
position)
> and we know that he was the tactical officer on another ship
> (see "the Wounded", an episode which aired after the one with the
> comments from Worf's father did). Tactical officer is LIEUTENANT
> Worf's occupation on the Enterprise. He has been treated as both an
> made a definitive choice when they put him on DS9.
No wonder he was treated inconsistently. He was nothing more than a
speaking extra at the time. (and IMHO he should have stayed that way).
> I don't recall O'Brien calling his transfer a promotion
When he offered to give up the transfer to DS9 because Keiko was unhappy
there, she said he would have to give up his promotion. He said not
necessarily.
> Transporter "chief" in itself doesn't imply "chief petty officer"
> any more than "chief" engineer does.
Apparently you didn't absorb what I said in my original note, which was:
>>> O'Brien is not and has never been an officer. He is an
>>> enlisted man, "chief" by rank, and by title (Transporter Chief, Chief
of
>>> Operations). Worf's father even called him a "fellow enlisted man".
I clearly stated that rank and title are different beasts, and he just
happens to be chief by rank AND title. If he's an officer, don't you
think he would have been offended by Sergei calling him an enlisted man?
Don't you think Worf would have corrected his father?
Who cares anyway? No matter how many (or what color) pips he wears, the
character will perform the same duties and have the same interpersonal
relationships that he does now. People get way too worked up about rank
in Star Trek. Some would have everyone in Starfleet be an officer! (even
the poor schlep with the vacuum cleaner strapped to his back in
ST2:TWOK!!).
Brian
krw...@acad.drake.edu
O'Brian trasnfered. He was supposed to go up, but wardrobe droped him three
ranks. They never changed it. This is what they told us. So we demoted, but not
on purpose.
The White Stallion
Stephen Ratliff
: In article <29AUG199...@vax2.concordia.ca>, ak...@vax2.concordia.ca
: (AKIS, RICHARD JOHN) writes:
: > I think that the character of O'Brien has been treated inconsistently-
: > more so than just your comment about a "wardrobe error" would suggest.
: > We have seen him man the con on the Enterprise (a true officer's
: position)
: > and we know that he was the tactical officer on another ship
: > (see "the Wounded", an episode which aired after the one with the
: > comments from Worf's father did). Tactical officer is LIEUTENANT
: > Worf's occupation on the Enterprise. He has been treated as both an
: > made a definitive choice when they put him on DS9.
: No wonder he was treated inconsistently. He was nothing more than a
: speaking extra at the time. (and IMHO he should have stayed that way).
: > I don't recall O'Brien calling his transfer a promotion
: When he offered to give up the transfer to DS9 because Keiko was unhappy
: there, she said he would have to give up his promotion. He said not
: necessarily.
Ensign (hollow pip) predates this
: > Transporter "chief" in itself doesn't imply "chief petty officer"
: > any more than "chief" engineer does.
: Apparently you didn't absorb what I said in my original note, which was:
: >>> O'Brien is not and has never been an officer. He is an
: >>> enlisted man, "chief" by rank, and by title (Transporter Chief, Chief
: of
: >>> Operations). Worf's father even called him a "fellow enlisted man".
: I clearly stated that rank and title are different beasts, and he just
: happens to be chief by rank AND title. If he's an officer, don't you
: think he would have been offended by Sergei calling him an enlisted man?
: Don't you think Worf would have corrected his father?
May be O'Brien entered Starfleet during the Cardassian-Federation
Border Wars. As we all know after wars peoples ranks can be lowered.
(ex. Gen. Custer) Star Trek the Next Generation begins in 2363. Based
on statements made by Captain Picard in the Battle and the Wounded the
war was begun by 2355. (The Stargazer was lost that year and he had to
run away from a Cardassain warship while commanding the Stargazer.) The
Cease-fire was signed in about 2366-7 (based on statements in Chain of
Command pts 1&2) That I beleive would place the end of the war about
the time we saw O'Brien's rank drop.
______ Stephen Ratliff
_-' . .`-_
|/ / .. . ' .\ \| Radford Unversity Student
|/ / ..\ \| (Sophmore)
\|/ |: . ._|_ .. . | \|/ email:
\/ | _|_ .| . .: | \/ srat...@rucs2.sunlab.cs.runet.edu
\ / |. | . . .| \ / (perfered) or
\||| . . . _|_ .|||/ srat...@ruacad.ac.runet.edu
\__| \ . :. .|. ./ |__/
__| \_ . .. _/ |__ If nothing is wrong with me,
__| `-______-' |__ Then something is wrong with the
-,____ ____,- universe
---' `--- -Dr Crusher "Remember Me"
Matthew Gerald Zinno
6th-season TNG episode "Realm of Fear." The purpose was so that
Barclay, only a lieutenant, could give him an order in one particular
scene. His rank was back to what was then usual in the next episode.
Courtney Bragar
Now, let me get this right. O'Brien was a Chief, which is an enlisted
rank. Isn't a Lt. always higher than any enlisted rank?
-Cory
Kenneth W. Crist Jr.
: In article <1994Sep9.0...@Princeton.EDU>,
Well, he was a Lt. in the second episode of the 2nd season. He had
the pips and Riker addressed him as "Lieutenant" before O'Brien beamed
Riker and Worf over to the phantom Yamato.
Ken Crist
kayu...@cfar.umd.edu
Paulo A. Pereira
-In article <357bp7$s...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, kayu...@cfar.umd.edu (Kenneth
-W. Crist Jr.) wrote:
-
-> Well, he was a Lt. in the second episode of the 2nd season. He had
->the pips and Riker addressed him as "Lieutenant" before O'Brien beamed
->Riker and Worf over to the phantom Yamato.
-
- It seems that this just won't go away... In the episode you are
-talking about Colm Meany is playing a character who is listed in the
-credits as "Transporter Chief". The character of "Chief O'Brien" hadn't
-even been created then. This was back in the days when Colm was regular
-extra on the TNG set. He did so well that they created a recurring
-character for him to play, with a name and a history and everything. Up
-until the second season episode Matter of Honor the character of Chief
-O'Brien didn't exist in the TNG universe.
- Why is this so hard for people to grasp?
-
--Hades
Now hold on -- it's not that easy to explain away the pip-problem. Sure,
he wasn't referred to as "O'Brien" in those early episodes, but what about
all the Season Three episodes where he has two pips on his collar and
everyone is calling him "Chief O'Brien"? I don't think anyone ever actually
calls him "Lt.", but he's wearing a Lt's rank! (For example, the episode
where Worf "adopts" the kid whose mother died ...)
The fact that, for a season and half, he may or may not actually be
Miles O'Brien has little to do with this discussion, since the apparent
costuming error continues well into the time when he is specifically
identified as Chief O'Brien.
And please try to lay off comments like "Why is this so hard for people
to grasp?" There's no reason to be snotty, and considering this is a
discussion about a friggin' Star Trek character, there's certainly no
reason to be self-righteous.
Hopin' that the NetFamily doesn't become [any more] dysfunctional ...
-Paulo
Matthew Gerald Zinno
lieutenant (as judged by the pips).
You can't say O'Brien is enlisted just because he is called "chief."
That's a title, not a rank. Example: Geordi is CHIEF Engineer. You
wouldn't say he's enlisted, now, would you?
Brian V. Hughes
> Well, he was a Lt. in the second episode of the 2nd season. He had
>the pips and Riker addressed him as "Lieutenant" before O'Brien beamed
>Riker and Worf over to the phantom Yamato.
It seems that this just won't go away... In the episode you are
talking about Colm Meany is playing a character who is listed in the
credits as "Transporter Chief". The character of "Chief O'Brien" hadn't
even been created then. This was back in the days when Colm was regular
extra on the TNG set. He did so well that they created a recurring
character for him to play, with a name and a history and everything. Up
until the second season episode Matter of Honor the character of Chief
O'Brien didn't exist in the TNG universe.
Why is this so hard for people to grasp?
-Hades
Jim Reiss
>> Well, he was a Lt. in the second episode of the 2nd season. He had
>>the pips and Riker addressed him as "Lieutenant" before O'Brien beamed
>>Riker and Worf over to the phantom Yamato.
> It seems that this just won't go away... In the episode you are
>talking about Colm Meany is playing a character who is listed in the
>credits as "Transporter Chief". The character of "Chief O'Brien" hadn't
>even been created then. This was back in the days when Colm was regular
>extra on the TNG set. He did so well that they created a recurring
>character for him to play, with a name and a history and everything. Up
>until the second season episode Matter of Honor the character of Chief
>O'Brien didn't exist in the TNG universe.
> Why is this so hard for people to grasp?
series finale (All Good Things...), the first-season character at the
conn position is specifically identified as Miles Edward O'Brien. While
the future events in AGT are meaningless, those that were set before
Farpoint assumedly were based on the realities in the past. So, it is
canon that Picard believed that the officer (term used loosely) in
the first season was O'Brien, and that O'Brien *did* exist in the TNG
universe at that time. Sure, you can say that this is revision after
the fact, but it's now part of the Trek legend.
This is not meant as a flame, but rather as an explanation of why some
of us don't "grasp" strange explanations like "it wasn't O'Brien in TNG
at that time". Hopefully I avoided spoilers here, I didn't reveal
anything about AGT's plot.
Daniel A. Hartung
again by asking:
But Berman et al. insist that "Chief" was always just a title, not
a rank, since "there are no enlisted ranks in Starfleet."
--
Daniel A. Hartung | I believe we can fly
Birch Grove Software | on the wings that we create
dhar...@chinet.chinet.com | -- Melissa Etheridge
Jon Van Hoose
: Courtney Bragar <courtne...@trincoll.edu> starts it all over
Ah, but there ARE enlisted ranks in Starfleet. In the episode "The
Drumhead", Crewman Simon Tarses (equivalent of Seaman in the Navy)
specifically describes how his parents wanted him to become an officer,
but he didn't want to spend four years in school, so he enlisted in the
Academy's "Training program for enlisted personnel." That's pretty
definitive. Add to that Sergei Rozhenko's statement that he was a Chief
Petty Officer and that O'Brien was also a CPO, I think O'Brien's status
is more easily explained as a Chief Petty Officer whose costuming was
screwed up (i.e. minor visual inconsistency) than to try to assume that
Sergei was wrong, as well as everyone else who calls him "Chief". In the
Navy, "Chief" is the form of addressing a CPO--note that while Worf is
Chief of Security and LaForge is Chief of Engineering, they are always
addressed as "lieutenant" or "Commander".
Also, in re: O'Brien's status as Tactical Officer on the
Rutledge. My impression was that the Rutledge was a small, rugged combat
vessel patrolling along the Cardassian Front. Casualties
probably necessitated a high turnover rate among the crew, and O'Brien
himself has specifically stated (I think it was in the DS9 episode where
Sisko and O'Brien are held captive by a waylaid Human colony) that he got
his position as Tactical officer after another crew member was killed.
In such situations, combat promotions for personnel intimately familiar
with the Rutledge would seem to be more logical than transferring a
real-live Officer in, so "before I knew it, I was Tactical officer on
the Rutledge," as O'Brien said. "Tactical Officer" was technically his
_position_, while Chief was his _rank_. (And when he made Chief, he was
then a Non-Commisioned Officer).
---Angus
Brian V. Hughes
Ok, I'll try to be nicer this time around, although I would like to
mention that this seems to come up about once every other month. Up until
AGT aired, things did sort of make sense, although the die hard "Colm
Meany has always been O'Brien" would always put up a good fight.
Just about every time Colm Meany or Rick Berman appeared at a Trek
convention someone asked them the O'Brien rank question. At some point
during the season where his pips were changed a straight answer was given,
although very few people in this group seemed to like it. Basically, the
whole rank pips for Chief O'Brien confusion was just a wardrobe mistake.
It wasn't until Colm Meany was fitted for a new uniform that the wardrobe
people realized his rank pips were wrong. No one in the cast seemed to
notice because the O'Brien character was always a Chief. There are at
least two instances where O'Brien calls a Lieutenant, "sir".
Like I said, this kind of all made sense until they decided to retcon
the O'Brien character for AGT. So suddenly the character from Encounter at
Farpoint, who was noted in the cast listing as Battle Bridge Conn and
played by Colm Meany, is turned into Chief O'Brien with those extra scenes
thrown in. Personally, I think if they were going to do that much of a
retcon, they could have at least put the O'Brien character in a yellow
uniform.
As for the "there are no enlisted in Starfleet", and "Chief was only
O'Brien's title, not his rank" someone else cited Crewman Simon Tarses,
and there is the DS9 episode when O'Brien tells Jake that his actual
Starfleet rank is Senior Chief Specialist. So in O'Brien's case Chief is
both his rank and his position, just like for Picard, Captain is both his
rank and his position.
Now, have I left anything out of this? I really wish that the keeper
of the O'Brien FAQ would post it again. It answers a lot of these
questions, and it probably clearer on some points than I've been, here. It
also mentions all of the various O'Brien's Rank camps.
-Hades
p.s. For those of you who didn't already figure it out, I have always
believed that the character of Chief O'Brien is an enlisted
non-commissioned officer. The equivalent of a Chief Petty Officer in
todays Navy.
Mike Richey
about Jake not wanting to be in Starfleet, O'Brien tells Jake the story
about how he didn't want to go to cello school so he enlisted in
Starfleet. He gives his rank, and it wasn't Chief Petty Officer. It
was something like "Senior Chief Specialist," I think.
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong; and if anyone knows
it, please post the exact wording of his rank as he gives in that DS9
episode.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Mike Richey -- SMR...@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. *
* Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." *
* -- some wiseguy *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Claimer (opposite of disclaimer) : My opinions are everybody *
* else's, too. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Jason R. Decesare
On Miles Skybox TNG card it clearly lists him as a LT.!!~!
I sent this card to Paramount with a note on how they screwed up.
Jason DeCesare
DECE...@murray.fordham.edu
--
-------------------------
Kenneth W. Crist Jr.
Courtney Bragar (courtne...@trincoll.edu) wrote:
: In article <1994Sep9.0...@Princeton.EDU>,
: matz...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Matthew Gerald Zinno) wrote:
: > As I recall, the FIRST time we saw O'Brien's rank drop was for the early
: > 6th-season TNG episode "Realm of Fear." The purpose was so that
: > Barclay, only a lieutenant, could give him an order in one particular
: > scene. His rank was back to what was then usual in the next episode.
: Now, let me get this right. O'Brien was a Chief, which is an enlisted
: rank. Isn't a Lt. always higher than any enlisted rank?
Well, he was a Lt. in the second episode of the 2nd season. He had
the pips and Riker addressed him as "Lieutenant" before O'Brien beamed
Riker and Worf over to the phantom Yamato.
Ken Crist
kayu...@cfar.umd.edu