DS9 "Abandoned" w/ a non-splr section at top
dh...@daniel.drew.edu
Gee, what to say, what to say?
I'm not sure WHAT I thought of that episode. It was not bad.
It was not great. I guess it was sort of good. Or was it?
This is going to take some thought.
Okay, one thing that annoyed me is that the Common Garden-Variety
Annoying Subplot was bigger and more expanded than usual, especially
towards the beginning of the episode. It was pretty mundane,
though I've seen worse, and the dinner scene wasn't too bad.
But it just seemed to be in control of the episode at first,
like they didn't know what they were doing with the main plot,
like they didn't know how to develop things. (Sort of like
"A Man Alone", right?) I think the real flaw of this episode
was that the main plot just didn't do too much. It needed to
be more developed, more fleshed out, allowed to grow more.
In other words, the main plot was a small child, not a grown
creature with energizing juices flowing into its neck, as it
should have been.
Within its tight confines it was sort of good. It had some
odd little points though.
SPOILERS BELOW------------------------------------
.
..
...
....
.....
....
...
..
.
SPOILERS
Wow, TPTB are actually doing continuity with Odo's character
in relation to the Dominion episodes. I have to commend them
for that.
(Why do we call them The Powers That Be? They're just writers.
Oh well, I guess I take everything too seriously.)
Odo seemed quite odd here. He's changed a lot. Bizarre-o-rama.
And the rumors of an Odo-Kira relationship (or unrequited-thing)
must be true. Hints of it were about as subtle as a Jem'Hadar's
fist in your face.
My guess is that it will be an unrequited-thing. Right? I mean,
Kira will want to be better friends, but only friends, since she's
got Bariel, while Odo . . . it's very odd to see myself writing
this, but Odo . . . man, this is going to have to be done really,
really, really well for it to be believable or there's no way
99% of DS9 viewers are going to swallow it. Odo will think maybe
he's in love with Kira . . . but isn't sure and will try to figure
out what love is? That sounds bad the way I just put it. But it
does have possibilities. Or maybe I am just a silly romantic.
(Note, though, I am a CYNICAL romantic. I have been told this.)
So the Dominion has total control of the Jem'Hadar by
genetically engineering them. Hmmmmmmm. This seems to remove
some of their more interesting possibilities. Of course, if
someone like Lore were to mess around with their liquid fuel
guck or engineering . . . . Nah.
Oh, and is that kind of genetic engineering possible, and moreover,
does anyone CARE???????????? I ***DO*** ***NOT***!!!!!!!
This is FICTION for heaven's sake.
So please don't get into a big debate about that, folks. We
don't need it. The signal-to-noise ratio here is already bad
enough!
Sorry, I'm a little testy today.
So what IS that . . . ability? device? power? the Jem'Hadar have
to . . . cloak? phase-cloak? What the HELL was that? They never
did explain that when the J'H were originally introduced and they
didn't say anything more about it here but the guy sure did look
like he went through a solid wall this time, instead of just
overtaking his targets speedily/invisibly. Hmmm, speedily.
Perhaps an effect of the accelerated metabolism.
I never saw TOS's "Wink of an Eye" but this reminds me of its
premise as I understand it.
I've never seen Odo subdue anyone THAT way. That would make me
bow down in reverence too.
Why does it always take so long for me to find posts about the
current episode? I write one of these things and don't see many
more like it until about a week later. I realize the NYC channel
shows DS9 really early in the week but doesn't ANYONE else on this
net get the show on Mondays? Maybe my news server is just slow.
Next week: GEE, it couldn't be SWEEPS month, COULD IT?
Lots of phaserfire, explosions, crewmembers looking
scared and ducking, ominous warnings, even a guy
getting vaporized! AND, Gul Dukat and GARAK!
Well, I'll be watching.
Ike
Dave Parry
: Well, I thought the two were very related. One was about a father who
: learned more about his son and had to give him more freedom. One was
: about a father-figure who didn't know enough about his 'son', tried to
: give the son as much freedom as possible, and found that wasn't the
: answer.
: Kina Rutman ki...@netcom.com
Dave puts his life on the line.......
If the above is a 'good' example of DS9 in season 3 then I'm glad I
stopped watching it after the first 6 episodes of season 2. Has the
American public become so friggin gullible that they'll swallow
anything as long as it's got a Trek label stuck to it? Why not cut the
crap and give the series it's correct title 'Days Of Our Lives In
Space'.
I was brought up with TOS. When I saw the first series of TNG I
thought "Wow!". Here was state of the art television. Here was Star
Trek for the 1990's. Well, I'd say about 50% of TNG really was good
stuff, but as the series moved along it developed more and more into a
Dynasty or Dallas spin off than a TOS spin off. It got too fucking
pretentious and, by default, too boring for those of us who enjoyed
the fun and action of TOS. However, TNG (pre-season 6 and 7) was an
honourable attempt. DS9 appears to be 100% soap opera with a few
special effects to remind people it really is set in space and not on
a ranch called South Fork. It's political correctness makes it as hard
to swallow as a whole chicken (Kira's party piece :-)).
I do know that many people enjoy DS9, but I'd be willing to bet that
there are many of them who would not enjoy TOS. The two series (with
TNG being a bit of both) seem aimed at different audiences and
although there's some people who can love both, I doubt many do.
Okay, so at the end of the day I'm just bitching because DS9 is not
TOS, but it doesn't mean that you can't have the 'best of both worlds'
(sorry). Babylon 5 seems to combine the strengths of TOS with what you
could say are the strengths of latter day Trek and that is why I am a
committed Babylon 5 viewer who is sad that, for him, Trek is a thing
of the past.
I hope that Voyager bucks the trend. I hope it's a show that puts
entertainment first and preaching second and that doesn't want to be
another soap opera.
I can dream can't I?
Dave
--
Kina Rutman
>Kina Rutman (ki...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Well, I thought the two were very related. One was about a father who
>: learned more about his son and had to give him more freedom. One was
>: about a father-figure who didn't know enough about his 'son', tried to
>: give the son as much freedom as possible, and found that wasn't the
>: answer.
>
Aw, come on, I'm hardly dangerous! :^) (don't come around when I'm
in labor, though).
>If the above is a 'good' example of DS9 in season 3 then I'm glad I
>stopped watching it after the first 6 episodes of season 2. Has the
>American public become so friggin gullible that they'll swallow
>anything as long as it's got a Trek label stuck to it? Why not cut the
>crap and give the series it's correct title 'Days Of Our Lives In
>Space'.
Well, if TOS was 'Wagon Train In Space', why not? :^) I like a
mix between action and just plain story. Really, though,
I liked the episode because it tried to answer some questions posed
earlier in the season.
Sometimes this means there isn't as much action as some viewers might
like. Oh well, cope. As a B-5 viewer you should be a little familiar
with the mindset of looking at the series as a whole, not individual
episodes. DS9 seems to be moving a little more in this direction,
trying to fill in the gaps left from prior episodes. Yes, there's still
not total continuity. Oh well, cope.
>I was brought up with TOS. When I saw the first series of TNG I
>thought "Wow!". Here was state of the art television. Here was Star
>Trek for the 1990's. Well, I'd say about 50% of TNG really was good
[text deleted]
>I do know that many people enjoy DS9, but I'd be willing to bet that
>there are many of them who would not enjoy TOS. The two series (with
>TNG being a bit of both) seem aimed at different audiences and
>although there's some people who can love both, I doubt many do.
I think you'd be surprised then. Just judging from past threads, there
are enough to keep the debate going :(
I grew up watching TOS and loved it.
It took me a long time to like TNG, but did. DS9 I've liked since it
started. Personally, I prefer DS9 out of the 3.
>Babylon 5 seems to combine the strengths of TOS with what you
>could say are the strengths of latter day Trek and that is why I am a
>committed Babylon 5 viewer who is sad that, for him, Trek is a thing
>of the past.
Yes, B-5 is great, but just as each Trek is different, so is Trek different
from B-5. I like both and watch them in different frames of mind. Of
course, some people will watch anything that has the Science Fiction
label slapped on it. :^)
>I hope that Voyager bucks the trend. I hope it's a show that puts
>entertainment first and preaching second and that doesn't want to be
>another soap opera.
Let's see...TOS is Wagon Train, DS9 is a soap opera, what does that
leave for VOY? You've got it! Game Show! Spin the wheel Capt.
Janeway and see what alien race you meet today. If you get to the bonus
round, you have a chance to win *this* shiny new runabout...Sure, it
could work.
>I can dream can't I?
Hmmm, I thought we had ended the discussion of dream sequences... :)
--
--
"When things are blackest, I just tell myself 'cheer up, things could be
worse!' And sure enough, they get worse!" --Skeeve
Kina Rutman ki...@netcom.com
Rand al'Thor
I'll try to be gentle.... :)
>
>If the above is a 'good' example of DS9 in season 3 then I'm glad I
>stopped watching it after the first 6 episodes of season 2. Has the
>American public become so friggin gullible that they'll swallow
>anything as long as it's got a Trek label stuck to it? Why not cut the
>crap and give the series it's correct title 'Days Of Our Lives In
>Space'.
Science fiction is often divided into two categories (and
possibly more)-- technological science fiction which concerns itself
with special effects and action and things like that; and social
science fiction which concerns itself with the implications of
improved technology, alien civilizations. (OK, obviously I'm a social
science fiction.) I would guess that much of TOS was the former (no I
haven't watched much of TOS and was not too impressed with what I saw.
But that's partially because the FX are rather cheesy compared to
today-- I'm just too fussy I suppose.:) And yes DS9 is the latter.
Could some of the DS9 storylines be transplanted into a different
setting-- some Texas ranch or a desert island or something? Probably.
But it wouldn't have the same effect. One of the purposes of some SF
writers is to take a familiar scenario and look at it from a different
viewpoint-- five hundred years in the future, or from an alien's eyes,
or whatever. With a new viewpoint things become a lot more apparent.
OK, now you know why I like DS9 and Asimov's Foundation series
and other forms of social SF. Now....
> It's political correctness makes it as hard
>to swallow as a whole chicken (Kira's party piece :-)).
What political correctness are you talking about, exactly?
Are you talking about emotions, or personal interrelationships, or
what? I don't recall seeing an episode so overwhelmingly about
homosexuality or racism or feminism or anything like that. Or do you
define political correctness as being "anything I don't like."? That
seems to be the common definition anymore.
>
>I do know that many people enjoy DS9, but I'd be willing to bet that
>there are many of them who would not enjoy TOS. The two series (with
>TNG being a bit of both) seem aimed at different audiences and
>although there's some people who can love both, I doubt many do.
What's wrong with that? DS9 was not created to be a
replacement for TNG, but a complement to it. I have a feeling that
Voyager will be designed more closely to the action spirit of TOS and
TNG. You don't HAVE to like DS9, I don't HAVE to like TOS. They're
just two different varieties of a basic setting in the future.
>I hope that Voyager bucks the trend. I hope it's a show that puts
>entertainment first and preaching second and that doesn't want to be
>another soap opera.
You can insult DS9 all you want but I DO call it
entertainment, and certainly of much higher quality than any soap
opera you would care to name. (Not that that says much, but....) I
wouldn't rush home after dinner every Saturday night if I didn't like
the show....
>
>I can dream can't I?
>
>Dave
>--
/
:@-) Scott
\
Kina Rutman
In article <1994Oct31.232022.112622@daniel> dh...@daniel.drew.edu writes:
>DS9 "The Abandoned"
>
>Okay, one thing that annoyed me is that the Common Garden-Variety
>Annoying Subplot was bigger and more expanded than usual, especially
>towards the beginning of the episode. It was pretty mundane,
>though I've seen worse, and the dinner scene wasn't too bad.
>But it just seemed to be in control of the episode at first,
>like they didn't know what they were doing with the main plot,
>like they didn't know how to develop things. (Sort of like
>"A Man Alone", right?) I think the real flaw of this episode
>was that the main plot just didn't do too much. It needed to
>be more developed, more fleshed out, allowed to grow more.
>
Well, I thought the two were very related. One was about a father who
learned more about his son and had to give him more freedom. One was
about a father-figure who didn't know enough about his 'son', tried to
give the son as much freedom as possible, and found that wasn't the
answer.
Then again, maybe I'm watching too much B-5 and they weren't connected
at all...
I also thought we were beaten over the head with 'Odo not wanting to
re-enact what was done to him'. But then, many parents are this way
with their kids. Whatever they think was wrong with their life, they
want to "fix" in their kids' lives. I see myself doing this sometimes,
and sometimes it needs to be done (IMHO).
Pregnant-woman-tangent: My goodness, wasn't that an adorable baby?! I
wanted to reach in and hold him too! Another tangent: the good thing
about being pregnant is you don't have to decide between the Cookie Dough
ice cream and the Haagen-Dazs Chocolate ice cream--you get both.
Anyway...Sisko and the baby were terrific together! I loved that scene,
and it was another tie-in between the two plots. I haven't really
figured out the full significance of the fact that Odo never saw the JH
when as an infant or child. Odo first saw him as a near-grown adult
and wanted to give him freedom from his background. Sisko saw him as
a child first, and was very willing to see the JH go back to his own
people. Maybe someone else can add to this.
>
>Wow, TPTB are actually doing continuity with Odo's character
>in relation to the Dominion episodes. I have to commend them
>for that.
Yes, that was nice. His room looked pretty neat, and my mind came up
with several uses for that central structure in the time it took Kira
to step over the threshhold ;)
>Why does it always take so long for me to find posts about the
>current episode? I write one of these things and don't see many
>more like it until about a week later. I realize the NYC channel
>shows DS9 really early in the week but doesn't ANYONE else on this
>net get the show on Mondays? Maybe my news server is just slow.
Well, I see the show Thursdays, *and* the server is slow! Not quite
the worst of both worlds, but still...
I've seen a couple of others compare this episode to "I, Borg" and
found it lacking. I've never seen "I, Borg" so maybe that's why
I liked "The Abandoned". Even still, from what I gather of "I, Borg"
the humans convince Hugh that the human way is so much better; whereas here,
the JH wants nothing to do with humans or human ways (Odo *has* been
influenced, btw).
Benjamin Hsu
ki...@netcom.com (Kina Rutman) writes:
> In article <CyqtI...@oasis.icl.co.uk> d...@oasis.icl.co.uk (Dave Parry) write\
> s:
> >Kina Rutman (ki...@netcom.com) wrote:
> >
> >If the above is a 'good' example of DS9 in season 3 then I'm glad I
> >stopped watching it after the first 6 episodes of season 2. Has the
> >American public become so friggin gullible that they'll swallow
> >anything as long as it's got a Trek label stuck to it? Why not cut the
> >crap and give the series it's correct title 'Days Of Our Lives In
> >Space'.
Yes but DS9 is not an example of this...
You mean you stopped watching AFTER "The Siege" and "Necessary Evil"???
Well, stranger things have happened.
People would sit through crap with a Trek label on it, hey, I sat
through "Journey's End" and "Force of Nature"
>
> Well, if TOS was 'Wagon Train In Space', why not? :^) I like a
> mix between action and just plain story. Really, though,
> I liked the episode because it tried to answer some questions posed
> earlier in the season.
>
I prefer a good story to gratuitous FX
> >I was brought up with TOS. When I saw the first series of TNG I
> >thought "Wow!". Here was state of the art television. Here was Star
> >Trek for the 1990's. Well, I'd say about 50% of TNG really was good
> [text deleted]
Yes, complete with the Drug Problem and Ozone depletion. The fact that
TNG has attempted to address these problems I applaud (don't ya just
love postfix sentences?) but the way TNG beats me over the head with
it like I'm a three-year-old does not appeal to me.
> >I do know that many people enjoy DS9, but I'd be willing to bet that
> >there are many of them who would not enjoy TOS. The two series (with
> >TNG being a bit of both) seem aimed at different audiences and
> >although there's some people who can love both, I doubt many do.
>
You lose the bet. DS9 is significantly truer to TOS in certain aspects
then TNG is. DS9 gave us Crossover, which is actually a continuation
of a TOS story, not some import of TOS guest stars into a TNG episode
or a rehash of a TOS story (name those episodes, 10 points each)
Granted, DS9 does not have the "humanity has evolved past its
problems" feeling that Rodddenberry pushes, but its character
interaction is much closer to TOS then TNG. TNG does not have the same
amount of interrelation as the Kirk-Spock-Bones triangle (anyone got
anything to say about how these 3 interact?) TNG has Picard saying
"make it so" and the crew listening. DS9 characters do not fit so
neatly into the niches that K-S-B did, but they do fit certain roles,
and these roles do not agree. The DS9 crew does not follow Siskos
orders, that may be a bad thing to Starfleet, but to me as a viewer it
is good, it gives them substance. Odo is not the "aye captain he's
going to the brig" type, he's doing his job because of his racial
memory, not because he's following orders. Kira is motivated by her
love of Bajor, not of the Federation. What are TNG characters
motivated by? It would appear to be loyalty to Starfleet in all cases.
I think a large chunk of the credit can be laid at the hands of P.A.
Fields. Too bad hes gone...I was under the impression that sooner or
later they'll actually start discussing IDIC again.
> I think you'd be surprised then. Just judging from past threads, there
> are enough to keep the debate going :(
> I grew up watching TOS and loved it.
> It took me a long time to like TNG, but did. DS9 I've liked since it
> started. Personally, I prefer DS9 out of the 3.
>
I'll rate them as follows:
DS9
TOS (a bit cheesy at parts, maybe its my age, but capable of flashes
of utter genius)
TNG (Good atg times, spoiled by too much action/technobabble/FX)
> >I hope that Voyager bucks the trend. I hope it's a show that puts
> >entertainment first and preaching second and that doesn't want to be
> >another soap opera.
>
Um I thought you liked TOS.
TOS started the tradition of Trek preaching
Readers, start naming examples, I begin the list with this:
Let that be Your Final Battlefield
Lets see if we can come up with 20 episodes
Oh yeah TNG was also full of preaching, much more heavyhanded then
TOS. Lets make a list of preachy TNG episodes also
Symbiosis
The Game
The Drumhead
At your service,
Ben Hsu
~~~~~~~~Ben...@CMU.edu~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Finger for more information~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Live Long, Prosper, and Play DOOM!!!!!"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~