Troi is capable of wearing a uniform (SPOILERS)
Cliff Heller
>>(see Disaster for proof). Therefore, she is as military as the next OFFICER
>>and should have to wear a uniform. If she is a civilian then she should NOT
>>have free access to the bridge. Other civilians don't. She should be in
>>uniform while she is on duty.
Here in the 24th century, we have done away with such things as greed,
poverty, racism, money, and military protocol.
ITS JUST A TV SHOW!
--
/ \ Reverend fnord | "King Kong died for your sins!"
/ \ fn...@panix.com |
/ <0> \ | "Don't just eat a hamburger,
/_______\ Church of Obfuscatology, Inc. | eat the HELL out of it!"
George Raiche
"And just why are you on the bridge so often, anyway?!"
Just a thought.
Robert W. Mech
>In <_lm2...@rpi.edu> plu...@aix.rpi.edu (James Matthew Plutnicki) writes:
>
>>>
>>>Well.....
>>>How about the fact that Troi is a non-military crew member, whereas everone
>>>else comes from the academy, and a military. Military people wear uniforms,
>>>non -military don't have to.
>>>
>>However, she is an OFFICER and has been refered to in many instances as such
>>(see Disaster for proof). Therefore, she is as military as the next OFFICER
>>and should have to wear a uniform. If she is a civilian then she should NOT
>>have free access to the bridge. Other civilians don't. She should be in
>>uniform while she is on duty.
>
>
>I recall in that episode where the enterprise goes into another universe and
>is at war with the Klingons and Tasha Yar is back and Worf is gone **and
>Troi is gone**.
>The enterprise was referred to as a war ship or military ship at war and there
>were no civilian people on board. Which is why I think Troi is not military
>
>(However Guinan is on Board)??
>
>Can anyone look at this on video and check the facts?
>
I dont have the video in front of me to watch, but I loved that episode, and I
remeber quite a bit about it. Troi as far as I remember was not in it, and
yes, Guinan was. Here is the reasons why that I think will explain it.
1. Troi is a counsler, what need does she have on a ship with mostly
military on it?
2. Guinan played a major role in that episode.
3. Guinan is a bartender, she dosen't have much of a need to be on a
military vessel, however, the military *does* need a bar. I think that
is the major reason that she is on. Where most people would rather
get drunk, than talk to Troi :-) .
--
:*: rwm...@uumeme.chi.il.us | Owner/Adminstrator UUMEME Public Access Xenix :*:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Boerma
>In article <cboerm48.724870926@ursa> cboe...@ursa.calvin.edu (Christopher Boerma) writes:
>:If she's not a military crew member, why does she have a rank? Why can she
>:command the ship?
>Same reason that chaplains and schoolteachers do in army bases abroad: to
>formalise their position in the social hierarchy.
But why's she on the Bridge then? I'm sure schoolteachers and chaplains
aren't allowed in the Command Center. And it's her rank a little high for
non-military officer? (I'm just guessing with the last one so, I might
be wrong)
CtB
--
Oh, I hate tryin' to be witty in these things! |
So I'm even going to try. And if you don't like it,|
Tough! (Thank you had have a nice day) | cboe...@calvin.edu
|
Christopher Boerma
>>>However, she is an OFFICER and has been refered to in many instances as such
>>>(see Disaster for proof). Therefore, she is as military as the next OFFICER
>>>and should have to wear a uniform. If she is a civilian then she should NOT
>>>have free access to the bridge. Other civilians don't. She should be in
>>>uniform while she is on duty.
>Here in the 24th century, we have done away with such things as greed,
>poverty, racism, money, and military protocol.
>ITS JUST A TV SHOW!
Hmmm, people have died for less! :) :)
(just a TV show, yeah right!)
Michael Johnson
(Robert W. Mech) writes:
> I know I would want a professional looking crew behind me, rather than
> people who obviously cant follow regulations.
I always just assumed Troi's outfits were regulation-acceptable alternatives
to "standard" uniform for someone in her role on ship. Assuming this to be
true, the intention was either that Cap'n Jello is very inflexible and wants
everything to exceed regulation specs (like the drive efficiency levels,) or
the writers just stepped on the older dress convention because it made a good
line. I often suspect the writers aren't as careful of existing conventions
as the viewers.
David Toland
>But why's she on the Bridge then? I'm sure schoolteachers and chaplains
>aren't allowed in the Command Center. And it's her rank a little high for
>non-military officer? (I'm just guessing with the last one so, I might
>be wrong)
The mental state of the bridge officers is something that should be
monitored. Her input has also proven valuable in evaluating the motives
of outsiders who contact the ship.
As for her rank, it seems a bit *low*, considering she can unilaterally
relieve the Captain of command without consulting first with any other
officer if she determines he is mentally unfit for duty.
I believe that the position of ship's counsellor was created after
realizing that many ships were lost because of stress-induced psychoses
and mental takeovers. Not all CMO's had as strong a background in
psychology/psychiatry as Dr. Leonard McCoy; furthermore, a CMO would
be less likely to be available on the bridge during a crisis, so a
dedicated position was needed. One would hope that the ship's
counsellor would find little to do on the bridge, but when he or
she is needed, he or she is critical to the survival of all aboard.
**flame on**
BTW, not that it applies to this particular posting, but there's
too much adolescent Troi-bashing centered around her physical
attributes. If you have an issue about her competence, fine, that
makes for lively discussion. If all you have to say concerns
how she fills out her clothing, please save the bandwidth. It has
already been said, it's boring, and it's petty. Such immature,
knee-jerk comments reflect poorly on the individuals who posts and
sound like the babblings of teenagers who have just discovered sex
and can hardly wait to try it.
**flame off**
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
d...@phlan.sw.stratus.com | "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
| that doon with."
Windsor Morgan
>>But why's she on the Bridge then? I'm sure schoolteachers and chaplains
>>aren't allowed in the Command Center. And it's her rank a little high for
>>non-military officer? (I'm just guessing with the last one so, I might
>>be wrong)
In article <1h7380...@transfer.stratus.com> d...@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland) responds:
>As for her rank, it seems a bit *low*, considering she can unilaterally
>relieve the Captain of command without consulting first with any other
>officer if she determines he is mentally unfit for duty.
Actually, only the chief medical officer (CMO) can do that, according to
the TNG episode "The Battle" (at least, only the CMO, of all the
people on the ship, can give the commanding officer an order).
--
'Verily, there be no leader as wise as the Vision!'
Windsor Morgan (wmo...@stsci.edu OR N...@PSUVM.BITNET)
Space Telescope Science Institute
Baltimore, MD 21218
Robert W. Mech
True. The uniform may be acceptable as far as somone in a less appointed
position. What I mean here, is that you sometimes have seen Geordi and
Data in "Engineering Jumpsuits" but you dont see them on the bridge dressed
as such. It may be a regulation-acceptable alternative, but I dont think
that would include being on the bridge. Lets face it here, you dont want
everyone on the bridge dressing in all diffrent "regulation-acceptable
alternatives" they would look silly dont you think? :-) I think Jelico is
just being proper, where Picard just dosent care as much.
--
:*: rwm...@uumeme.chi.il.us | Owner/Adminstrator UUMEME Public Access Xenix :*:
Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for the sake of temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Schmitt
: In article <cboerm48.724870926@ursa> cboe...@ursa.calvin.edu (Christopher Boerma) writes:
: :If she's not a military crew member, why does she have a rank? Why can she
: :command the ship?
:
: Same reason that chaplains and schoolteachers do in army bases abroad: to
: formalise their position in the social hierarchy.
Chaplains and Doctors *ARE* commissioned officers. Schoolteachers are NOT.
Chaplians and Doctors hold military rank. Schoolteachers hold a federal
civil 'GS' grade.
Chaplains/Doctors wear uniforms which schoolteachers do not.
However, their 'profesional' title is listed first:
eg: Doctor(Captain) Jones; Chaplain(Major) Smith.
Chaplains wear 'duty uniforms' without the clerical collar (British chaplains
wear clerical collars with their uniform). Doctors on duty in a medical
clinic or hospital wear the 'surgeons' coat over their uniform.
In a military organization, the Chaplain, along with the JAG (Judge Advocate)
and the IG (Inspector General) are members of the Commander's Personal Staff.
The Doctor (Surgeon) is a member of the Special Staff.
--
Mike Schmitt - Disclaimer: These opinions are not my employer's. My opinions
are protected by the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of
America. No mission too difficult, no sacrifice too great. Duty first.
Mike Schmitt
: Here in the 24th century, we have done away with such things as greed,
: poverty, racism, money, and military protocol.
Actually, all the episodes have displayed military protocol to a high
degree. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that even in the 24th century there
will be order and discipline in the world.
Even in a TV Show.
Eric Williams
Regarding her choice of uniform: Has everyone forgotten her
Betazoid/zed background? Marriages take place in the buff. I have the
sense that female anatomy is revered and placed on display for effect.
This may explain Cap'n Picard's leniency toward her wardrobe.
Also, the E. is not usually a battleship--it is supposed to be a ship of
peace with kids, clowns, balloons, etc. Under these circumstances
standards might be relaxed.
As for her place on the bridge, this is in case the ship encounters
alien life forms whose languages baffle the universal translator.
In these cases, Troi may put out her hoo^H^H^H feelers and contribute
to understanding the situation. (Granted, this doesn't seem to happen
very often...)
-------- er...@npri.com ---------- or ---------- ...uunet!uupsi!npri6!eric -----
This sentence has no verve.
Eric C. Williams/ NPRI/ Alexandria, VA/ USA/ (703) 683-9090/ Usual disclaimers.
J.B. Nicholson-Owens
> Regarding her choice of uniform: Has everyone forgotten her
> Betazoid/zed background? Marriages take place in the buff.
However marriage ceremonies aren't the topic of discussion in this
thread and concentration on marriage ceremonies is neither Picard's nor
Troi's jobs. Exactly how does simply being part Betazoid allow one to
not have to follow the dress code that every other bridge crew member,
senior officer and Lt. Commander have to obey? It is obvious that the
"female anatomy is revered and placed on display for effect" but for
what effect? This is what is being debated.
> Also, the E. is not usually a battleship--it is supposed to be [..]
Therefore when the ship is a battleship she should change into a
uniform? I've never seen her do that nor have I seen that asked of
her. Jellico asked her to wear a uniform when on duty, he made no
concession for "wartime only". Also, the ship is the flagship of the
Federation, the ship that is most powerful ship in the Federation, I
would think that rules and regulations would be strictest, not most
lenient, there. At the very least, the ship is just another Federation
ship and the rules for dress code should be upheld on the Enterprise as
on any other Federation ship.
> In these cases, Troi may put out her hoo^H^H^H feelers and [..]
But what does this have to do with her undersized uniform? And what is
"hoo^H^H^H" (was this an attempt at retracting "hooters")?
If it is necessary for her to wear non-uniform clothes during
counseling, why is it necessary for her to wear something that pushes
her breasts up, chokes off her air supply and displays the tops of her
breasts as if presenting them to whomever she meets? What's wrong with
a regular shirt like other women on the ship wear? Since her breasts
and body shape don't play a role in her counseling, why show them off?
The only reason (a deplorable one) that comes to my mind is ratings.
Contrary to what some poster on another related thread believes, there
are many examples of how displaying women in ridiculous poses or
skintight clothing will result in some sales even though it has nothing
to do with the product and is completely out of place. What people
such as the aforementioned poster, advertisers and producers don't
realize is that if the product were as good as it is claimed to be, it
would be sellable on it's own merits and would not require advocating
the continued oppression of women through insensitive and unrealistic
presentation as well as the focus solely upon women's bodies.
--
-- Jeff (je...@uiuc.edu)
-- NeXTmail welcome
Arun Bhalla
> Why does it matter whether she's a military crew member or a
> non-military crew member? She a crew member nonetheless and has the
> rank of Lt. Commander just like Data and La Forge, to name a couple.
> She can and has taken control of the ship before and she can order
> other people on the ship around like any other officer with rank higher
> than those being ordered.
The whole idea of Troi not wearing an officer's uniform is for a since
that Counselor Troi isn't an on-duty officer when people come to her for
problems.... She wants to create a family atmosphere type-thing.
However, it did surprise me that she actually did wear a uniform... it
seems that the new captain is stricter, or at least much different from
Picard....
Speaking of which....
Any comments about the new captain?
Any comments/ideas/guesses as to whether Picard will survive and return
to the Enterprise?
Arun Bhalla
**************************************************************************
* Arun Bhalla * Star Trek, FS4, Simcity, PCs, BBSs, reading, etc. *
* Write me for * And other multiple interests!!! *
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**************************************************************************
J.B. Nicholson-Owens
> The whole idea of Troi not wearing an officer's uniform is [..]
If she isn't an on-duty officer when people come to her for counseling,
then why is she doing it? Just for the fun of it? She gets bored and
decides to counsel people? I don't recall anyone on the show ever
saying anything to lead one to believe that she is not on duty when she
counsels. However, I have heard her discuss her education and
according to her, her field of concentration is psychology and
counseling people is her job aboard the Enterprise.
I have yet to see anyone respond to the main point of this thread which
I have elaborated upon in another post I made today. In a nutshell, if
it is necessary for her to not wear a uniform during counseling, why
can't she wear regular non-uniform clothes like other women on the ship
have been seen wearing?
Dawn Owens-Nicholson
>The whole idea of Troi not wearing an officer's uniform is for a since
>that Counselor Troi isn't an on-duty officer when people come to her for
>problems. She wants to create a family atmosphere type-thing.
Hey man, pass me that J.
-Dawn
Christopher Boerma
>je...@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens) writes:
>> Why does it matter whether she's a military crew member or a
>> non-military crew member? She a crew member nonetheless and has the
>> rank of Lt. Commander just like Data and La Forge, to name a couple.
>> She can and has taken control of the ship before and she can order
>> other people on the ship around like any other officer with rank higher
>> than those being ordered.
>The whole idea of Troi not wearing an officer's uniform is for a since
>that Counselor Troi isn't an on-duty officer when people come to her for
>problems.... She wants to create a family atmosphere type-thing.
Hmm, my mother never wore anything like that. Can't say as I'd be
real comfortable with her sitting across from me wearing what she
normaly wears. I'd prefer the uniform to the pajamas
>However, it did surprise me that she actually did wear a uniform... it
>seems that the new captain is stricter, or at least much different from
>Picard....
No, really? :)
The Mad Scot
The concept of not wearing a uniform would be to not intimidate people
coming to her for help. If you were a lowly rating and had problems
with interpersonal relationships or whatever, you would probably find
it rather hard to talk to a lieutenant commander -- regardless of
looks or race. Officers are by their nature intimidating to
non-officers. I know, for I spent 4 year working in a very officer
rich environment at a research facility as an enlisted troop.
Personally, I would like to see Troi wear her uniform more. I think
that she looked better in that than her other cleavage showing purple
jumpsuit. I don't see why when she is on the bridge (which would only
be part of her duty) she can't wear a uniform, then change into
'civvies' for sessions.
BTW, someone mentioned that clergy in the military didn't wear
uniforms - not so. They wear (in the Air Force) their blue service
uniform, and either a cross or a Star of David to denote that they are
clergy.
--
===============================================================================
Tony Perreault, High Tech Babysitter & Nanny tper...@banshee.vla.nrao.edu
Array Operations, Very Large Array All opinions expressed are my
Socorro, NM own and not those of NRAO
J.B. Nicholson-Owens
to respond to the main point of the entire thread (restated at least
twice by me). Instead, Tony Perreault chooses to say (yet again) the
same reason why Troi should wear non-uniform clothes (_any_ non-uniform
clothes) instead of a uniform]
Please re-read previous messages in this thread to determine what has
been stated and what the question is.
What is interesting is just how few people seem to have any answer to
the question being asked (it just so happens, however, that of the
people with answers, these people and I reached the same answer). It's
not a difficult question for those that can see what the goal of Troi's
usual attire really is.
Desiree Sy
> Regarding her choice of uniform: Has everyone forgotten her
> Betazoid/zed background? Marriages take place in the buff.
(1) Following this train of thought, various other personnel
could wear dress uniforms (or, depending on how long this custom
lasted, white dresses), kimonos, saris, battle armour -- you get
the idea. That is, what people wear at marriages is what people
wear at marriages, not on the bridge.
(2) Many people have mentioned the fact that participants and
guests at Betazed marriages are nude as if that denoted that
Betazoids generally are more uninhibited in dress. Is this true?
I haven't seen all the Lwaxana episodes, so I may have missed
some other evidence, but I haven't heard any evidence that
Betazoids dress to reveal their bodies. Just because Troi wears
outfits with cleavage doesn't mean all Betazoid women do so.
-desiree
take place
David Toland
>have been seen wearing?
What, you want fashion police on board the Enterprise? I don't think her
normal clothing is inappropriate. It covers her, and does not appear to
be a distraction to the crew, even if it does seem to upset the netters
(if there needs to be something tangible to upset netters :)
Mike Porter
>--
>-- Jeff (je...@uiuc.edu)
>-- NeXTmail welcome
>
Actually, Jeff, if you really wanted to make your point that ST:TNG
occasionally flashes skin to get ratings, why not mention the episode
where Wesley Crusher gets sentenced to death on The Planet of Amazingly
Fit, Sexually Active and Scantily-Dressed Young "Obsession" Models?
And people, DON'T try to tell me that the plot required it, it was the
other way around--they needed a story to show all that skin. Don't get me
wrong, I'm no prude, but that episode was just plain embarrassing. (To
add to the injury, the Weasel got off, scot free... ;-) ...)
--
Cheers, Mike
Scott Allan Zakon
to wear a STANDARD uniform. This doesn't mean that she hadn't been
wearing some form of uniform all along. Maybe a light duty uniform.
Scott A Zakon zak...@halcyon.com
J.B. Nicholson-Owens
> What, you want fashion police on board the Enterprise?
I never asked for any such thing. I think that what she wears is not a
uniform that anyone else wears and that it is not something that a
professional should wear. I feel this way because I don't think that a
regular shirt and pants (such as what other women on the Enterprise
wear) would be offensive to anyone on or off the ship.
There are examples of people outside the ship who have been attracted
to her when both their duties were perfectly clear. One such example
is the man who was capable of putting his negative emotions onto other
people was attracted to her from the time he stepped off the
transporter pad. Only he can say if it was her face that drew his
attention so quickly, however her normal attire makes her stick out
from the rest of the ship.
> It covers her [..]
It covers her as a coat of paint would, that is, it barely covers her.
It draws attention to every aspect of her body and attempts to push her
breasts against her chin. In fact, Marina Sirtis has been quoted as
saying something to the effect of "Where did [my breasts] go?" when she
takes off that costume. Bringing attention to one's body is not
relevant to her purpose for being on the ship.
If it is true that it is easier for patients to communicate with Troi
when she is out of uniform, why she cannot wear clothes that not only
cover her, but cover her in the way that other women's clothes on the
ship cover them is something which very few people on this group have
answered in a way that can not be successfully rebutted with ease.
I have never seen her change clothes for a counseling session,
therefore I have no reason to believe that she would ever do so. Yet,
if she were counseling someone who could communicate to women only
sexually, her attire for that counselling would be most inappropriate.
I also don't think that such problems with crew members would be
outside the realm of possibility. Especially with the holodeck
providing immediate access to virtual women so easily.
The most common of such answers is that the producers (or those with a
lot of money invested in the show) feel that by showing Marina Sirtis'
body, they will be doing something that will cause the show's ratings
to increase and/or continue the ratings they've acquired. Not unlike
beer ads, exercise equipment ads, diet ads, etc. (where you never see
men's penises being pushed out for easy view), the producers feel that
by having continuous gratuitous female near-nudity, they are doing
something good for the show which will, in turn, do something good for
their bank accounts.
Mike Porter writes
> Actually, Jeff, if you really wanted to make your point [..]
True, and a very good point. I recall that episode (where Wesley
visits the planet of skimpily-clothed very sexually active people) and
I too think it was very much as you described.
Scott A Zakon writes
> Jellico, in slamming Troi, told her to wear a STANDARD uniform. [..]
He does say those words, however I doubt that what she was wearing
would be a uniform, surely not a "light duty" uniform as you suggest.
I think this to be true because no other person on the entire ship has
been seen wearing what she does, and I sincerely doubt that out of all
the beings on the ship, no two of them would have similar tastes in
uniform preference. In addition, in an episode where a communicable
disease was going around the ship making people feel as if they were
drunk, Yar wandered into Troi's room and rummaged through her closet
looking for sexually provocative clothing to match her very sexual
feelings. This in itself makes me think that it is quite clear to
others on the ship that what Troi wears is sexually provocative and not
intended to make others feel at ease (in in fact would probably be more
likely to make women feel uneasy; also, on this very newsgroup in this
limited discussion I have noticed how there has not been a single woman
who has said that what Troi wears is okay).
Put simply, Troi's body shape and the size of her breasts have nothing
to do with either her job as Lt. Commander nor Ship's Counselor. She
would be able to do her job just as well were she to wear a regular
shirt and pants not unlike what the other women on the ship wear.
Another problem with Troi's attire as it relates to reality is that
Marina Sirtis has been quoted as saying that she feels uncomfortable
wearing the bustiers and girdles that she must to get the Deanna Troi
look. In fact, she has said that she has fainted more than once due to
lack of oxygen caused by restrictive clothing. And yet we never see
her character, Deanna Troi, fainting or suffering from oxygen
deprivation. This disparity of what actually happens to women who wear
this kind of clothing and what happens to fictional characters only
promotes the unrealistic expectations for real-life women.
I have only scratched the surface on this issue. There are other
points that other readers and I have raised that I didn't say again
(check previous posts for those points). For further reading on how
damaging images such as the (literally) bound-up Deanna Troi are, check
out:
* Backlash by Susan Faludi
* The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolfe
(both are current and well worth reading. There is much more of such
literature worth reading)
aaron
>[after unnecessarily quoting my entire post, Tony Perreault chooses not
>to respond to the main point of the entire thread (restated at least
>twice by me). Instead, Tony Perreault chooses to say (yet again) the
>same reason why Troi should wear non-uniform clothes (_any_ non-uniform
>clothes) instead of a uniform]
>
>Please re-read previous messages in this thread to determine what has
>been stated and what the question is.
>
just frustration. Well, I'll agree with you on the non-necessity of
repeating the entire post so uselessly as happened. I'll endeavour to make
better use while I do.
In actuality, I think he did -- albeit in a half-assed way --
respond to you, tho I also think he didn't follow his posting all the way
to its several logical conclusions.
The reason My. Perreault gives for using non-uniform-standard wear
as Troi does is quite valid. Several reasons for why she wears the same
thing over and over again could be as follows:
1) Continuity. We've come, as much as we do or do not like it, to
identify Troi with that jumpsuit (numerous little appellations
such as 'Counselor Cleavage' come to mind . . .). How much more so
the crew? That outfit, combined with the person in it, represents
a picture of non-threatening stability. Everyone knows who it is,
instinctively one could almost say, and know that the person in
that suit will give unalloyed help. Now, an added element of
change -- the different closes you wish to see -- may be
differently appealing, but it doesn't have that aspect of
continuity which I wager any psychology-type person will say is
quite important in counselling.
2) Comfort. Much as it may not look like it, it is entirely
possible that the good Counselor is actually comfortable in that
uniform. By my own experience, skin-tight clothes have a tendancy
to be such so long as they are of the right make and materiel, and
it occurs that if she uses it so regularily, this could certainly
be the case.
3) Vanity. Much as she is the goody-two-shoes type, Troi also is a
striking woman with an excellent figure, and the jumpsuit --
whether for well or ill -- shows it off to good advantage. Who is
not to say that she doesn't wear it for reasons related to this, as
well as others which I've mentioned?
Of course, all this adds up to the possibility you mention, 4)
Ratings.
>
>What is interesting is just how few people seem to have any answer to
>the question being asked (it just so happens, however, that of the
>people with answers, these people and I reached the same answer). It's
>not a difficult question for those that can see what the goal of Troi's
>usual attire really is.
>
>-- Jeff (je...@uiuc.edu)
>
Such negativity. There are plenty of reasonings and
rationalisations one could come up with if one would but spend the time.
Of course, everyone knows that, in this day and age, it is a sad fact that
'sex sells', as the adage goes. And this is probably (knowing Hollywood
and it's underlying bottom-line concerns) the case. But don't let it blind
you, in a rage of moralising, to other possibilities. The entire world is
not so unidealistic as all that, and those possibilities could indeed hold
true.
Hope I provided some interesting thought for you.
Regards,
Stanley!
aa...@fiu.edu
aaron
in some discomfort as Deanna Troi.
In honesty, I had realised this as a possibility, but had not known
t for its actuality when I made my comments in a previous reply. This
makes the *real* reason for her style of dress much more likely to be the
wordly one (i.e. 'sex sells').
HOwever, it still does not invalidate the points made about the
*character* of Troi, herself, as opposed the actress playing that
character, and I think that it is in that context, as much as the real
person of Sirtis, that we need to consider, dealing as we are with a
fictional show.
Maybe there are those who do not wish to believe it (I am not one
of them), but there *are* women with Troi's type of figure. Maybe they are
somewhat artificially put together on the inside, but I cannot invalidate
what my own eyes have seen. To such a person, such an outfit may well be
comfortable. And even more so, the vanity issue would come into play for
such a person.
Maybe it makes me sound something of a monster to say these things in this
manner, but I think the rational view here is quite valid, whether I
*agree* with the reasoning or not. In reality, I do not; I would
personally prefer to see Troi in uniform 100% of the time, just as I
expected after seeing the premier episode of the show. I believe it was a
mistake to ever take her out of the outfit she was wearing at the time.
But just because they didn't leave her in uniform, because they did put her
into the something which they did, does not mean that there are logical and
rational reasons behind the character of Troi herself for doing so. And
this is what I'm attempting to point out . . .
Regards,
StanleY!
aa...@fiu.edu
ac999239
all well and good, but when she is on bridge duty or on an away mission I
see no reason whatsoever why she should not be in standard issue starfleet
uniform. If Picard lets her get away with it then it's ok as long as Picard
is in command. However, if another captain, who is stricter on dress codes,
is her commanding officer then it is not ok.
Don't remember if he specifically told her not to wear the jumpsuit when with
patients, but he certainly demands it not to be worn on the bridge.
sand...@stsci.edu
> What is interesting is just how few people seem to have any answer to
> the question being asked (it just so happens, however, that of the
> people with answers, these people and I reached the same answer). It's
> not a difficult question for those that can see what the goal of Troi's
> usual attire really is.
> --
> -- Jeff (je...@uiuc.edu)
> -- NeXTmail welcome
Well, I've been reading this thread for quite some time, and it's been in
my head quite a bit. So, I'm finally going to put my 2 cents in.
First, I won't try to deny that it is VERY likely (or certain) that Troi
wears her "cleavage" outfits to help boost the ratings. That's pretty obvious
from a "ratings" point-of-view.
But let's go a bit further with this.
The show is supposed to be set in the 24th Century. I hope, (and I'm sure
I'm not the only one) that by the time the 24th Century comes around, people
won't be looked at for their physical attributes. Maybe, to the crew of the E,
seeing Troi's clevage isn't a big deal. Maybe they have learned to look beyond
the outward appearances.
And, to link to another thread, how are we ever going to change peoples
attitudes without showing them that they stereotypes are wrong? Some people
want a female CO of the E, to show that women can do the job. Others say that
society isn't ready for that. Well, times have to change. Would the there
be as many objections about Troi's cleavage if she was a strong female
character, like many people want to see? Or do most people think it's not
possible for a woman to be beautiful and strong? I know for a fact that it's
possible, but it seems that there are too many people who don't think that's
true.
Well, I've rambled on enough for now. I'd like to hear what others have to
say about this. This Troi thread and the female CO thread are a lot more
similar than most people think...
John
Cindy Hey
>Eric Williams writes
>> Regarding her choice of uniform: Has everyone forgotten her
>> Betazoid/zed background? Marriages take place in the buff.
>
>However marriage ceremonies aren't the topic of discussion in this
>thread and concentration on marriage ceremonies is neither Picard's nor
>Troi's jobs. Exactly how does simply being part Betazoid allow one to
>not have to follow the dress code that every other bridge crew member,
>senior officer and Lt. Commander have to obey?
Every other crew member? Huh?
Is Worf obeying the dress code when he wears his Klingon sash? Is Ro when
she is allowed to wear her Bajoran earing? (I seem to recall that in the
first episode she was in, she was told by Riker (?) to remove it as it was
not regulation. Later, Picard (?) told her that she could continue to wear
it. Or something like that. Does anyone remember this?) Anyway, maybe
it's the same for Troi. Maybe her body suit outfit is typical for Betazoids
and is considered native wear and is therefore allowed by Picard (even
though it is not regulation).
Just a thought ...
Roger M. Wilcox
>
> The show is supposed to be set in the 24th Century. I hope, (and I'm sure
>I'm not the only one) that by the time the 24th Century comes around, people
>won't be looked at for their physical attributes. Maybe, to the crew of the E,
>seeing Troi's clevage isn't a big deal. Maybe they have learned to look beyond
>the outward appearances.
I hope (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) that by the time the 24th Century
comes around, people will feel free to show themselves off any way they darned
well please without fear of social or regulatory repercussions. Maybe, to
the crew of the E, seeing Troi's cleavage is sexually arousing and that's okay.
Maybe they have learned to look beyond the "shoulds" that were so prevailent
in our currently-still-too-Victorian society and feel free to let themselves
be THRILLED with being attractive and attracted.
--
Roger *M.* Wilcox (aka Jeff Boeing)
tra...@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu
Aleph null bottles of beer on the wall, aleph null bottles of beer, ...