Oldest Spacefaring Civilization in Trek-iverse?
Ed Stasiak
to discover warp technology? Or is it a case of several species
figuring it out around the same time and bumping into each other
while exploring?
David Johnston
>Just wondering, which Star Trek civilization/species was the first
>to discover warp technology?
Are we counting extinct species? Of the species that have been
prominent in Star Trek, the Vulcans and the Tholians seem most
advanced and therefore probably predate the others.
Timo S Saloniemi
Probably not even "around the same time". The earliest humanoids we know
of were roaming the stars some four billion years ago (TNG "The Chase").
It's likely that they invented warp drive. It's also likely that their
invention is NOT the basis of the warp drives of later civilizations, though.
Vulcans and the modern Feds show us one way in which "inheriting" of
warp drive is prevented: they refuse to contact people who don't already
have warp drive or comparable interstellar access. Another way would be
for an advanced warp-driven culture to brutally subjugate all non-warpers
it encounters, thus denying them the further technological development
they'd need to exploit even foreign warp drives.
In addition, it seems that inventing warp drive isn't even particularly
difficult. A drunkard from Earth who never read a single issue of the
Intergalactic Engineering Journal could do it, after all. So we could safely
bet that some 50% of the species we meet in Trek invented warp drive
"first", and were then surprised to find that space was full of neighbors,
and that they had also invented it "first"...
Of the major Trek species, Vulcans probably had warp drive or comparable
FTL drive 1,000 BC already (since their interstellar monastery dates back
that far). But nothing precludes the Vulcans from having had warp drive
since tens of thousands of years ago, really.
Klingons may have possessed warp or other interstellar flight back in the
days of Kahless (600 AD or so), since he said his triumphant return
from the dead would take place on a specific star in the sky. Or perhaps
he was just speaking figuratively, and true starflight followed only
millennia later. Klingon history is full of what we'd consider anachronisms,
including hanging on to technologies and social structures that were outdated
on Earth long before the industrial era. Thus, we can't tell whether the
forging of the first bat'leth (for which we know the supposed date, in the
600s AD) or the launching of the first warp-powered Klingon ship took place
first!
Romulans may or may not have had warp when they left Vulcan supposedly
some 2,000 years ago, but it's likely that they did since Vulcans were
interstellar a thousand years prior.
Cardassians and Bajorans may have had warp in antiquity, or only achieved
it in the TNG era; little or nothing has been said on the matter. It
seems Bajor did not have warp in 1,500 BC, despite being an ages-old society
at that time already, since the stories of Bajoran interstellar exploration at
that time were regarded as mythical later on. But we have no idea when
after 1,500 BC warp was discovered/bought/stolen by them.
Timo Saloniemi
Bob Flaminio
> In addition, it seems that inventing warp drive isn't even
> particularly
> difficult. A drunkard from Earth who never read a single issue of the
> Intergalactic Engineering Journal could do it, after all.
I'm guessing that the "science" of warp drive is somewhat hard, but the
"technology" is less so, once you know the trick. One major
breakthrough, and then all you need to do is modify a missle and you've
got warp drive.
What about Portal's people from an early TNG episode? I seem to recall
they were into spacefaring, and long extinct.
--
Bob
TJK2023
Joseph Nebus
>what about the Guardians of Forever?
Properly speaking, we don't know that whoever it was that built
the Guardians of Forever were spacefaring. Timefaring, certainly, and
it's hard to see how you could build a Guardian that goes back in time
and light-years across in space without it, but we don't have an explicit
statement to that effect. Put it down with an asterisk.
They go back -- assuming the Guardian wasn't just exaggerating
for drama and fun -- to before our Sun was created, so that'd be at a
minimum five billion years (by current stellar theories).
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timo S Saloniemi
>tjk...@aol.com (TJK2023) writes:
>>what about the Guardians of Forever?
> They go back -- assuming the Guardian wasn't just exaggerating
>for drama and fun -- to before our Sun was created, so that'd be at a
>minimum five billion years (by current stellar theories).
They could be cheating, of course. Perhaps they became technologically
capable just a few thousand years ago (or then haven't even been born
yet!), but once mastering time travel, decided to "install" their
time portal device in the distant past.
The Q have traveled to the birth of our universe and back, using "warp
flashes" as their method of travel, but their actual birthdate is just
as unknown and open to speculation...
Timo Saloniemi
Sunbari1
Betazed: Antiquity
Trill: Antiquity
Ferenginar: Antiquity
Cardassia Prime: 1925
Vulcan: 320 A.D.
Andoria: 1154 A.D.
Qo'nos: 930 A.D.
Son'a: Antiquity
Romulus: 320 A.D.
T-Rogoran: 1570
Founder Homeworld: Antiquity
Talax: Antiquity
Sikaris: Antiquity
Malon Prime: Antiquity
Vadwaur: Antiquity
Timo S Saloniemi
....Although all of these are pretty much guesswork. And
there is no difference between "Vaadwaur: antiquity" and
"T-Rogoran: 1570". All we know is that T-Rogorans had
starflight AT LEAST in 1570, but possibly long before.
In fact, the Vaadwaur entry should read "1470",
since they had starflight AT LEAST by then.
Some of that stuff is outright wrong, even. Vulcan had
starflight a thousand years BC, because they were able to
found the interstellar monastery of P'Jem. We have no specific
date for the Romulan exodus from Vulcan yet, so 320 AD is pretty
silly. Also silly are all those numbers ending with 70, because
they assume that somebody saying "X hundred years ago" in DS9
or VOY was meaning "EXACTLY X hundred years before the
current date, which is the early 2370s".
To be sure, all of the entries should read "antiquity" if they
were to be consistent. All the years refer to Earth's "antiquity"
period, after all (except for those that are dead wrong)!
Timo Saloniemi
M.H.
>
> Romulans may or may not have had warp when they left Vulcan supposedly
> some 2,000 years ago, but it's likely that they did since Vulcans were
> interstellar a thousand years prior.
>
I find it hard to beleive that the Romulans didn't have warp drive,
unless Romulus and Vulcan are really close to each other.
> Cardassians and Bajorans may have had warp in antiquity, or only achieved
> it in the TNG era; little or nothing has been said on the matter. It
> seems Bajor did not have warp in 1,500 BC, despite being an ages-old society
> at that time already, since the stories of Bajoran interstellar exploration at
> that time were regarded as mythical later on. But we have no idea when
> after 1,500 BC warp was discovered/bought/stolen by them.
>
> Timo Saloniemi
Bajor had FTL travel even if they didn't have warp drive, those solar
sail ships could go FTL if hit by some sort of subatomic technobabble
particle
--
___________________________________________________________________
Timo S Saloniemi
>The Romulans could have pulled it off a sub-light journey from Vulcan,
>and still have had plenty of time to develop the Star Empire
>civilization that they eventually did.
...Especially since we *still* don't know for sure when they left Vulcan.
(But we will pretty soon.)
>Consider that we now know the distance from Earth to Vulcan (16 ly),
>and that we now have an approximate distance from Earth to the Romulan
>territories (130 ly).
Actually, that latter figure (if taken from ENT "Minefield") is the
distance from Earth via the random walk of the NX-01 to a point that
some *warp-capable* Romulans had reached via their own random walk from
Romulus. For all we know, Romulus lies in Alpha Centauri, and in the
2150s, the Romulans have gotten as far away from their home system as
the humans have!
>Assuming a more or less straight line from Vulcan to Romulus, that
>gives a distance of about 114 ly.
Then again, the Romulans might have done deliberate feints to shake
pursuit. Or split up and split up again, being faithful to their
lifestyle of dissent, and thus altered course multiple times. But I
think I agree they'd want to get as far away from Vulcan as possible.
>So, assuming decent sub-light speeds, the journey takes only about a
>couple of centuries time (to the proto-Romulans, this journey is even
>less given relativistic effects). That still leaves 1,800 years to
>get things set up on Romulus once they get there.
Plus the Romulans would have inherent interest in interstellar travel
then, and some hands-on experience. Both factors might speed up their
warp research, even if their technological level was originally the same
as that of the Vulcans, and even if they were handicapped by living
on an untamed planet.
>If on the other hand, the proto-Romulans have some sort of a limited
>warp drive, then they can traverse the distance in about a century or
>so, assuming warp 1.8 or 2 capability at minimum (I'am assuming stops
>made along the way. Otherwise the journey is just less than 19 years).
The proto-Romulans might also have had a full-fledged Vulcan warp 7 drive,
which their undriven brethren would not have improved on in the following
two millennia. This would allow them to have a vast star empire by the
time of the Earth war - something that novelists and fan writers have
not favored, but that could still be a possibility. We don't know how
Earth defeats its enemy, but if she has Vulcans, Andorians and maybe even
Klingons on her side, then the opponent could be a worthier one than
previously thought.
Timo Saloniemi
kristyleigh
which he believed were responsible for the dispersal of humanoid
species throughout the quadrant? Assuming they were warp-capable, they
must have preceded all of the present (humanoid) spacefaring cultures,
or maybe influenced their development. It was in the one where Kirk
falls in love with an alien princess and then loses her at the end.
Sorry, just kidding. It was in episode 58, "Paradise Syndrome."
Probably not the oldest, but an interesting footnote ...
Ciao, Kristy.
John C. Baker
kristyl...@hotmail.com (kristyleigh) wrote:
> Does anyone recall an extinct civilization mentioned by Spock in TOS,
> which he believed were responsible for the dispersal of humanoid
> species throughout the quadrant?
The oldest are no doubt the proto-humanoids mentioned in TNG's "The
Chase," who seeded their DNA across the galaxy to populate it with
humanod species. The second oldest were probably from the Earth:
intelligent dinosaurs who escaped the planet and founded a civilization
in the Delta Quadrant, as seen in a Voyager episode. The third-oldest
are probably either Bajorans (they've been mentioned as reaching
Cardassia thousands of years ago) or the Preservers who moved American
Indians to the planet in "The Paradise Syndrome."
Timo S Saloniemi
>Does anyone recall an extinct civilization mentioned by Spock in TOS,
>which he believed were responsible for the dispersal of humanoid
>species throughout the quadrant? Assuming they were warp-capable, they
>must have preceded all of the present (humanoid) spacefaring cultures,
>or maybe influenced their development.
Why "preceded"? For all we know, they are in the habit of abducting people
from primitive Native American villages and advanced Andorian starships
alike. And if the abducting of the Amerinds is any indication, they prefer
to do it with as little publicity as possible, that is, not really
influencing anybody but those they abduct.
There's no particular reason to think that this civilization would be
extinct, either. They were quite active mere half a millennium before
the episode, after all.
That is, if we are speaking of the Preservers of "Paradise Syndrome" fame.
But perhaps you actually meant Sargon's people from "Return to Tomorrow"?
You know, those disembodied souls living insibe big beach balls? They may
indeed have had an influence, several hundreds of thousands of years ago,
but there's no telling whom they preceded and whom they followed. There
have been spacefarers (and humanoid spacefarers) around for billions of
years, according to TNG "The Chase".
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>In article <bd9b31b1.04111...@posting.google.com>,
> kristyl...@hotmail.com (kristyleigh) wrote:
>> Does anyone recall an extinct civilization mentioned by Spock in TOS,
>> which he believed were responsible for the dispersal of humanoid
>> species throughout the quadrant?
>The oldest are no doubt the proto-humanoids mentioned in TNG's "The
>Chase," who seeded their DNA across the galaxy to populate it with
>humanod species. The second oldest were probably from the Earth:
>intelligent dinosaurs who escaped the planet and founded a civilization
>in the Delta Quadrant, as seen in a Voyager episode.
Agreed on these, I think. The first would be more than four billion years
ago, the second about sixty-five million.
>The third-oldest are probably either Bajorans (they've been mentioned
>as reaching Cardassia thousands of years ago) or the Preservers who moved
>American Indians to the planet in "The Paradise Syndrome."
Mere thousands or hundreds of years won't cut it in this game. There have
been several humanoid starfarers in the "hundreds of thousands of years"
bracket, including Tkon from TNG "The Last Outpost", Iconians from TNG
"Contagion" et al, Sargon's people from TOS "Return to Tomorrow" etc.
In addition, we hear of ancient civilizations that didn't bother with
starflight - the Bajorans are supposedly at least a hundred thousand
years old, too, but only gained starflight fairly recently. Vulcans might
also trace their cultural ancestry back that far, if what Spock suspects
in "Return to Tomorrow" is true and the Sargonian colonization effort was
behind Vulcan's habitation.
Timo Saloniemi
Mike DiCenso
> In article <d01c847f.04111...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
>
> >The Romulans could have pulled it off a sub-light journey from Vulcan,
> >and still have had plenty of time to develop the Star Empire
> >civilization that they eventually did.
>
> ...Especially since we *still* don't know for sure when they left Vulcan.
> (But we will pretty soon.)
Actually, we have a pretty good indication for when the proto-Romulans
left Vulcan, as given in "Gambit parts I & II". That's where the
oft-repeated 2,000 year number is taken from, and we also clearly have
reference to the Romulans being straight off-shoots of the Vulcans
from "Unification Parts I & II", as well. There is NO doubt the
Romulans come from Vulcan, and their starflight from Vulcan took place
around 2,000 years prior to the 2360's.
> >Consider that we now know the distance from Earth to Vulcan (16 ly),
> >and that we now have an approximate distance from Earth to the Romulan
> >territories (130 ly).
>
> Actually, that latter figure (if taken from ENT "Minefield") is the
> distance from Earth via the random walk of the NX-01 to a point that
> some *warp-capable* Romulans had reached via their own random walk from
> Romulus. For all we know, Romulus lies in Alpha Centauri, and in the
> 2150s, the Romulans have gotten as far away from their home system as
> the humans have!
No offense. But that's really an illogical stretch. We have canon
proof that Alpha Centuari is NOT the Romulan home star system. Recall
that in DS9's "Past Tense", everyone on the Defiant was suprised to be
hearing subspace chatter from about that location; furthermore, in
ENT's "Twilight" and "Stormfront Part II", we know that there are
Earth colonies/outposts on Alpha and Proxima Centauri. So no Romulans
there, or anywhere near Earth.
> >Assuming a more or less straight line from Vulcan to Romulus, that
> >gives a distance of about 114 ly.
>
> Then again, the Romulans might have done deliberate feints to shake
> pursuit. Or split up and split up again, being faithful to their
> lifestyle of dissent, and thus altered course multiple times. But I
> think I agree they'd want to get as far away from Vulcan as possible.
I'am making the assumption for simplicity. That's why it's an
assumption only, Timo. Of course the proto-Romulans probably
zig-zagged around. But that means they still likely wound up where
they did around 130 ly from Earth. The existance of the Debrune would
certainly suggest groups splitting off from the main group, or an
early attempt by Romulans to colonize other worlds after having
settled on Romulus.
> >So, assuming decent sub-light speeds, the journey takes only about a
> >couple of centuries time (to the proto-Romulans, this journey is even
> >less given relativistic effects). That still leaves 1,800 years to
> >get things set up on Romulus once they get there.
>
> Plus the Romulans would have inherent interest in interstellar travel
> then, and some hands-on experience. Both factors might speed up their
> warp research, even if their technological level was originally the same
> as that of the Vulcans, and even if they were handicapped by living
> on an untamed planet.
That's also possible, but there is no actual evidence as of yet of
that being the case. I would also hope that the Romulans aren't that
flat out advanced, if only because it would cause serious problems for
Earth during the Earth-Romulan War.
> >If on the other hand, the proto-Romulans have some sort of a limited
> >warp drive, then they can traverse the distance in about a century or
> >so, assuming warp 1.8 or 2 capability at minimum (I'am assuming stops
> >made along the way. Otherwise the journey is just less than 19 years).
>
> The proto-Romulans might also have had a full-fledged Vulcan warp 7 drive,
> which their undriven brethren would not have improved on in the following
> two millennia. This would allow them to have a vast star empire by the
> time of the Earth war - something that novelists and fan writers have
> not favored, but that could still be a possibility. We don't know how
> Earth defeats its enemy, but if she has Vulcans, Andorians and maybe even
> Klingons on her side, then the opponent could be a worthier one than
> previously thought.
I don't think you need a warp 7 engine to accomplish a relatively
large empire by the time of ENT or TOS. Certainly a warp 2 or even a
warp 3 capable drive would be more than sufficent. We also would have
to be making a large number of assumptions in whether or not the
Romulans were able to even maintain starflight capability once they
made planetfall on Romulus, or if they did; they must have then spent
considerable time in conquering the neighboring Remans.
-Mike
Timo S Saloniemi
>tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<cn0p3l$496$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
>> In article <d01c847f.04111...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
>> >The Romulans could have pulled it off a sub-light journey from Vulcan,
>> >and still have had plenty of time to develop the Star Empire
>> >civilization that they eventually did.
>>
>> ...Especially since we *still* don't know for sure when they left Vulcan.
>> (But we will pretty soon.)
>Actually, we have a pretty good indication for when the proto-Romulans
>left Vulcan, as given in "Gambit parts I & II". That's where the
>oft-repeated 2,000 year number is taken from, and we also clearly have
>reference to the Romulans being straight off-shoots of the Vulcans
>from "Unification Parts I & II", as well. There is NO doubt the
>Romulans come from Vulcan, and their starflight from Vulcan took place
>around 2,000 years prior to the 2360's.
As per "Gambit" references, 2,000 years is just the *minimum* time to
have expired. As the Romulan "offshoot" dates back that far, it
may be that 2,500-3,000 years might be closer to the truth, to allow for
the developing of further rifts within the Romulan society. I admit, though,
that we are in the ballpark already, and ENT will no doubt only give its
final blessing to the figures.
>> >Consider that we now know the distance from Earth to Vulcan (16 ly),
>> >and that we now have an approximate distance from Earth to the Romulan
>> >territories (130 ly).
>>
>> Actually, that latter figure (if taken from ENT "Minefield") is the
>> distance from Earth via the random walk of the NX-01 to a point that
>> some *warp-capable* Romulans had reached via their own random walk from
>> Romulus. For all we know, Romulus lies in Alpha Centauri, and in the
>> 2150s, the Romulans have gotten as far away from their home system as
>> the humans have!
>No offense. But that's really an illogical stretch. We have canon
>proof that Alpha Centuari is NOT the Romulan home star system. Recall
>that in DS9's "Past Tense", everyone on the Defiant was suprised to be
>hearing subspace chatter from about that location; furthermore, in
>ENT's "Twilight" and "Stormfront Part II", we know that there are
>Earth colonies/outposts on Alpha and Proxima Centauri. So no Romulans
>there,
Okay, the example was a bit extreme...
>or anywhere near Earth.
I wouldn't go that far, though (and no pun intended). Our DS9 heroes
ought to have very clear views of where the Romulans can be and where
they cannot - and the views would not be based on "they are so far,
they can't be this near". Instead, they are based on the existence of
the Neutral Zone. An East Berliner standing 30 meters on the wrong side
of the wall is just as great an anomaly as an East Berliner standing
3 kilometers on the wrong side.
>I'am making the assumption for simplicity. That's why it's an
>assumption only, Timo. Of course the proto-Romulans probably
>zig-zagged around. But that means they still likely wound up where
>they did around 130 ly from Earth.
My argument was specifically about this 130 ly encounter: with a
race as secretive as the Romulans, it isn't a safe assumption to say
that their territory would lie *beyond* those 130 ly, rather than
*between* the 130 ly location and Earth.
>I don't think you need a warp 7 engine to accomplish a relatively
>large empire by the time of ENT or TOS. Certainly a warp 2 or even a
>warp 3 capable drive would be more than sufficent. We also would have
>to be making a large number of assumptions in whether or not the
>Romulans were able to even maintain starflight capability once they
>made planetfall on Romulus, or if they did; they must have then spent
>considerable time in conquering the neighboring Remans.
This all is very promising in terms of story possibilities open for
the writers. As long as we have virtually nothing but assumptions to
go by, we aren't straight-jacketing anybody with our expectations.
Doesn't mean we won't be disappointed when our personal conceptions
about this are ruined, though.
Timo Saloniemi
David Johnston
DiCenso) wrote:
>tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<cn0p3l$496$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
>> In article <d01c847f.04111...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
>>
>> >The Romulans could have pulled it off a sub-light journey from Vulcan,
>> >and still have had plenty of time to develop the Star Empire
>> >civilization that they eventually did.
>>
>> ...Especially since we *still* don't know for sure when they left Vulcan.
>> (But we will pretty soon.)
>
>Actually, we have a pretty good indication for when the proto-Romulans
>left Vulcan, as given in "Gambit parts I & II". That's where the
>oft-repeated 2,000 year number is taken from, and we also clearly have
>reference to the Romulans being straight off-shoots of the Vulcans
>from "Unification Parts I & II", as well. There is NO doubt the
>Romulans come from Vulcan, and their starflight from Vulcan took place
>around 2,000 years prior to the 2360's.
Or more like 1600 years prior to the 2360s
Mike DiCenso
> In article <d01c847f.04111...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
> >tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<cn0p3l$496$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
> >> In article <d01c847f.04111...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
>
> >> >The Romulans could have pulled it off a sub-light journey from Vulcan,
> >> >and still have had plenty of time to develop the Star Empire
> >> >civilization that they eventually did.
> >>
> >> ...Especially since we *still* don't know for sure when they left Vulcan.
> >> (But we will pretty soon.)
>
> >Actually, we have a pretty good indication for when the proto-Romulans
> >left Vulcan, as given in "Gambit parts I & II". That's where the
> >oft-repeated 2,000 year number is taken from, and we also clearly have
> >reference to the Romulans being straight off-shoots of the Vulcans
> >from "Unification Parts I & II", as well. There is NO doubt the
> >Romulans come from Vulcan, and their starflight from Vulcan took place
> >around 2,000 years prior to the 2360's.
>
> As per "Gambit" references, 2,000 years is just the *minimum* time to
> have expired. As the Romulan "offshoot" dates back that far, it
> may be that 2,500-3,000 years might be closer to the truth, to allow for
> the developing of further rifts within the Romulan society. I admit, though,
> that we are in the ballpark already, and ENT will no doubt only give its
> final blessing to the figures.
With the latest ENT episode, it indicates that the Romulans probably
(the "Raptor's shadow" reference)left sometime around 1,800 years
prior to the 2150's. Add on about 200 years for the "Gambit" TNG
timeframe, and 2,000 years is just about right.
That still does not hold up to scrutiny, Timo. There is little
indication that the Romulans are anywhere near that close, at least as
far as their territory is concerned, never mind the Romulus-Remus
starsystem itself. Remember also in "Minefield" that according to
T'Pol, there was little information and contact with the Romulans and
the Vulcans at that point. It certainly does not seem as though the
Romulans are very close at all.
> >I'am making the assumption for simplicity. That's why it's an
> >assumption only, Timo. Of course the proto-Romulans probably
> >zig-zagged around. But that means they still likely wound up where
> >they did around 130 ly from Earth.
>
> My argument was specifically about this 130 ly encounter: with a
> race as secretive as the Romulans, it isn't a safe assumption to say
> that their territory would lie *beyond* those 130 ly, rather than
> *between* the 130 ly location and Earth.
The distance between the repair station and the "Minefield" star
system cannot be very much since the NX-01 had been very badly
cripped, and could not have travelled very far in any direction to get
to it. So the 130 ly number is very sound as a general number. Not to
mention, Romulus itself would be even further away from there given
that was a planet claimed as part of Romulan territory. So the actual
number is probably a fair distance further away than that. So why
don't we just stick to the conservative 130 ly number?
> >I don't think you need a warp 7 engine to accomplish a relatively
> >large empire by the time of ENT or TOS. Certainly a warp 2 or even a
> >warp 3 capable drive would be more than sufficent. We also would have
> >to be making a large number of assumptions in whether or not the
> >Romulans were able to even maintain starflight capability once they
> >made planetfall on Romulus, or if they did; they must have then spent
> >considerable time in conquering the neighboring Remans.
>
> This all is very promising in terms of story possibilities open for
> the writers. As long as we have virtually nothing but assumptions to
> go by, we aren't straight-jacketing anybody with our expectations.
>
> Doesn't mean we won't be disappointed when our personal conceptions
> about this are ruined, though.
There are plenty of assumptions all around. It is not likely that we
will learn all that much new about how the Romulans left Vulcan, or
anything else given that ENT must and is maintaining the "mysterious"
nature of the Romulans in keeping with TOS. But that being said, ENT
has given us quite a bit of information, namely that the Vulcans took
at least 1,500 years rebuilding after the last great battle. This
gives us a good enough indication that the proto-Romulans probably
might have also suffered similarly as well.
-Mike
Mike DiCenso
According to the episode, the last great battle took place at least
1,600 to 1,800 years prior to the 2150s. That means adding on 200
years for the TNG-era, and you easily have 1,800 years for the Romulan
disporia, and that can be pushed back a century or two further
depending on what assumptions you want to make. The TNG 2,000 year
"The Gambit" number still holds up reasonably well.
-Mike
Timo S Saloniemi
>tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<cnkedb$rvg$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
>> My argument was specifically about this 130 ly encounter: with a
>> race as secretive as the Romulans, it isn't a safe assumption to say
>> that their territory would lie *beyond* those 130 ly, rather than
>> *between* the 130 ly location and Earth.
>The distance between the repair station and the "Minefield" star
>system cannot be very much since the NX-01 had been very badly
>cripped, and could not have travelled very far in any direction to get
>to it. So the 130 ly number is very sound as a general number. Not to
>mention, Romulus itself would be even further away from there given
>that was a planet claimed as part of Romulan territory.
That's the only part that I contest. Why should Romulus be further away?
Why not between this location and Earth? It's not as if NX-01 made
a thorough survey of the intervening space or anything - and she's the
only Earthship that has even attempted such a thing.
>There are plenty of assumptions all around. It is not likely that we
>will learn all that much new about how the Romulans left Vulcan, or
>anything else given that ENT must and is maintaining the "mysterious"
>nature of the Romulans in keeping with TOS. But that being said, ENT
>has given us quite a bit of information, namely that the Vulcans took
>at least 1,500 years rebuilding after the last great battle. This
>gives us a good enough indication that the proto-Romulans probably
>might have also suffered similarly as well.
Hmm. 1,500 years of rebuilding could then mean that Vulcan would regain
starflight in the 1800s. Or would they start with starflight and then go
on rebuilding other stuff?
Incidentally, would this "last great battle" be the same as the "last
civil war" from TNG "Gambit"? The timeframe for the latter was not
specified; it was only said that the T'Karath Sanctuary was a stronghold
for one of the factions, and has been abandoned for "centuries" by the
2360s. This could be in reference to the current ENT events, then, rather
than to the original Romulan schism...
Timo Saloniemi
Mike DiCenso
> In article <d01c847f.04112...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
> >tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<cnkedb$rvg$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
>
> >> My argument was specifically about this 130 ly encounter: with a
> >> race as secretive as the Romulans, it isn't a safe assumption to say
> >> that their territory would lie *beyond* those 130 ly, rather than
> >> *between* the 130 ly location and Earth.
>
> >The distance between the repair station and the "Minefield" star
> >system cannot be very much since the NX-01 had been very badly
> >cripped, and could not have travelled very far in any direction to get
> >to it. So the 130 ly number is very sound as a general number. Not to
> >mention, Romulus itself would be even further away from there given
> >that was a planet claimed as part of Romulan territory.
>
> That's the only part that I contest. Why should Romulus be further away?
> Why not between this location and Earth? It's not as if NX-01 made
> a thorough survey of the intervening space or anything - and she's the
> only Earthship that has even attempted such a thing.
Except that the NX-01 crew have access to special knowledge in the
form of T'Pol and the Vulcan Database. It wouldn't take them too long
to look up where at least the general territory of the Romulans is
supposed to be. No one exclaimed "Holy shit! These guys are right on
Earth's doorstep!" All other canon indications are that the Romulan
homeworlds lie a fair distance away from Earth, and not near it at
all. That is also something ENT got right, put the Romulans at least a
100 or more light years out from Earth. Gives Earth some slight
breathing room, unlike the Klingon fiasco, which puts them much, much
closer at about 16 to 30 ly from Earth.
> >There are plenty of assumptions all around. It is not likely that we
> >will learn all that much new about how the Romulans left Vulcan, or
> >anything else given that ENT must and is maintaining the "mysterious"
> >nature of the Romulans in keeping with TOS. But that being said, ENT
> >has given us quite a bit of information, namely that the Vulcans took
> >at least 1,500 years rebuilding after the last great battle. This
> >gives us a good enough indication that the proto-Romulans probably
> >might have also suffered similarly as well.
>
> Hmm. 1,500 years of rebuilding could then mean that Vulcan would regain
> starflight in the 1800s. Or would they start with starflight and then go
> on rebuilding other stuff?
We've just learned, thanks to Surak's memories via Archer, that Vulcan
was pretty badly devastated by what appeared to be at least a limited
nuclear exchange, just as Earth was in the 2050's with World War III.
Given that the Vulcans had absolutely zero outside help that we know
of, it's very likely that at least a few centuries had to have been
taken recovering, and rebuilding. Starflight implies the regaining of
intersteller travel at some level, but it is very likely that the
Vulcans still managed to retain at least some measure of limited
spaceflight capability.
> Incidentally, would this "last great battle" be the same as the "last
> civil war" from TNG "Gambit"? The timeframe for the latter was not
> specified; it was only said that the T'Karath Sanctuary was a stronghold
> for one of the factions, and has been abandoned for "centuries" by the
> 2360s. This could be in reference to the current ENT events, then, rather
> than to the original Romulan schism...
Speculation. But that's what the Reeves-Stevens, who know their Trek
history, are implying here, and it works very well, too.
-Mike
Marcelo Bruno
> In article <f33e00ab.04110...@posting.google.com> esta...@att.net (Ed Stasiak) writes:
>
> >Just wondering, which Star Trek civilization/species was the first
> >to discover warp technology? Or is it a case of several species
> >figuring it out around the same time and bumping into each other
> >while exploring?
>
> Of the major Trek species, Vulcans probably had warp drive or comparable
> FTL drive 1,000 BC already (since their interstellar monastery dates back
> that far). But nothing precludes the Vulcans from having had warp drive
> since tens of thousands of years ago, really.
Curious, Vulcans for sure; Romulans probably; Klingons perhaps, they
all had warp technology before humans. Yet, by the
23rd or 24th centuries, humans appear to be more technologically
advanced than all previously mentioned species. In fact, 24th-century
Earth is probably the most affluent and powerful planet among
comparable civilizations in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. How is that
possible ?
>
> Klingons may have possessed warp or other interstellar flight back in the
> days of Kahless (600 AD or so), since he said his triumphant return
> from the dead would take place on a specific star in the sky. Or perhaps
> he was just speaking figuratively, and true starflight followed only
> millennia later. Klingon history is full of what we'd consider anachronisms,
> including hanging on to technologies and social structures that were outdated
> on Earth long before the industrial era. Thus, we can't tell whether the
> forging of the first bat'leth (for which we know the supposed date, in the
> 600s AD) or the launching of the first warp-powered Klingon ship took place
> first!
Actually, I've always been troubled by that side of Klingon culture.
By human standards, the Klingons live under a medieval, feudal
monarchy. It is very hard for me to imagine a highly advanced
technological society that would retain such a primitive
social/political structure. The Romulan Star Empire by contrast,
although probably more aristocratic than democratic, appears to have
nonetheless at least a far more structured system of government, with
a modern state bureaucracy and well-developed representative
institutions like the Senate and the office of Praetor.
Russell Stewart
> Curious, Vulcans for sure; Romulans probably; Klingons perhaps, they
> all had warp technology before humans. Yet, by the
> 23rd or 24th centuries, humans appear to be more technologically
> advanced than all previously mentioned species. In fact, 24th-century
> Earth is probably the most affluent and powerful planet among
> comparable civilizations in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. How is that
> possible ?
Well, because, in the Trek universe, humans are the most vibrant,
dynamic, resourceful and creative species. This is not surprising,
since Star Trek is written by humans for the entertainment of
humans.
--
Russell Stewart | E-Mail: dia...@swcp.com
UNM CS Department | WWW: http://www.swcp.com/~diamond
"A man who claims superiority based on his 'honor' has none"
-Joe Shimkus
Marcelo Bruno
> tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<cn0p3l$496$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
> > In article <d01c847f.04111...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
> >
>
>
> That's also possible, but there is no actual evidence as of yet of
> that being the case. I would also hope that the Romulans aren't that
> flat out advanced, if only because it would cause serious problems for
> Earth during the Earth-Romulan War.
Before ENT, the most common assumption in all Trek history sites
was that Earth had won the Earth-Romulan War due to its "superior
technology". However, from what we now know, mid-22nd century Earth
was actually a fairly primitive planet compared to other older
space-faring civilizations. How did humans beat the Romulans then ?
There's no hard evidence I know of that other species (Andorians,
Vulcans, etc...) were involved in the conflict, so is it still safe to
assume Earth won the war single-handed without even having a
long-range space fleet at the time ? Again, I find that very unlikely.
> >
> I don't think you need a warp 7 engine to accomplish a relatively
> large empire by the time of ENT or TOS. Certainly a warp 2 or even a
> warp 3 capable drive would be more than sufficent. We also would have
> to be making a large number of assumptions in whether or not the
> Romulans were able to even maintain starflight capability once they
> made planetfall on Romulus, or if they did; they must have then spent
> considerable time in conquering the neighboring Remans.
> -Mike
I was under the impression that not even the Vulcans, much less the
Romulans, had warp 7 engines by 2160. In fact, I remember from one of
Archer's comments on ENT that even the state-of-the art highly
classified Vulcan starships were believed to reach only warp 6. Also,
researching a few Klingon history sites on the web, I found references
to Klingons having warp-4 technology by ENT time, but that's probably
just speculation.
David B.
> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) wrote in message news:<d01c847f.04111...@posting.google.com>...
> > tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<cn0p3l$496$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
> > > In article <d01c847f.04111...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
> > >
>
> >
> >
> > That's also possible, but there is no actual evidence as of yet of
> > that being the case. I would also hope that the Romulans aren't that
> > flat out advanced, if only because it would cause serious problems for
> > Earth during the Earth-Romulan War.
>
> Before ENT, the most common assumption in all Trek history sites
> was that Earth had won the Earth-Romulan War due to its "superior
> technology". However, from what we now know, mid-22nd century Earth
> was actually a fairly primitive planet compared to other older
> space-faring civilizations. How did humans beat the Romulans then ?
> There's no hard evidence I know of that other species (Andorians,
> Vulcans, etc...) were involved in the conflict, so is it still safe to
> assume Earth won the war single-handed without even having a
> long-range space fleet at the time ? Again, I find that very unlikely.
In "Balance of Terror" Spock said that no human or ally had ever seen a Romulan. So it sounds like there were some allies.
Timo S Saloniemi
>tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<co1nl5$sav$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
>> In article <d01c847f.04112...@posting.google.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu (Mike DiCenso) writes:
>> >tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi) wrote in message news:<cnkedb$rvg$1...@epityr.hut.fi>...
>>
>> >> My argument was specifically about this 130 ly encounter: with a
>> >> race as secretive as the Romulans, it isn't a safe assumption to say
>> >> that their territory would lie *beyond* those 130 ly, rather than
>> >> *between* the 130 ly location and Earth.
>>
>> >The distance between the repair station and the "Minefield" star
>> >system cannot be very much since the NX-01 had been very badly
>> >cripped, and could not have travelled very far in any direction to get
>> >to it. So the 130 ly number is very sound as a general number. Not to
>> >mention, Romulus itself would be even further away from there given
>> >that was a planet claimed as part of Romulan territory.
>>
>> That's the only part that I contest. Why should Romulus be further away?
>> Why not between this location and Earth? It's not as if NX-01 made
>> a thorough survey of the intervening space or anything - and she's the
>> only Earthship that has even attempted such a thing.
>
>Except that the NX-01 crew have access to special knowledge in the
>form of T'Pol and the Vulcan Database. It wouldn't take them too long
>to look up where at least the general territory of the Romulans is
>supposed to be. No one exclaimed "Holy shit! These guys are right on
>Earth's doorstep!"
Why would Vulcan maps show Romulan territory? So far, we haven't heard
confirmation that Vulcans would know anything more about Romulans than
how their name is spelled ("Minefield") and what sort of a flag they
prefer ("The Forge"). Generally, the point with Romulan departure seemed
to be a cutting of ties with Vulcan, which would make map updating an
awkward process.
>All other canon indications are that the Romulan homeworlds lie a fair
>distance away from Earth, and not near it at all.
Well, we consistently hear of a comm delay, both in TOS and TNG. But
we also see that ships get there and back in no time at all in TNG.
So we could simply infer that the weather around there isn't kind
on subspace messages.
>That is also something ENT got right, put the Romulans at least a
>100 or more light years out from Earth. Gives Earth some slight
>breathing room, unlike the Klingon fiasco, which puts them much, much
>closer at about 16 to 30 ly from Earth.
Now, that *would* be dramatically smart, I don't deny that...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>In "Balance of Terror" Spock said that no human or ally had ever seen a
>Romulan. So it sounds like there were some allies.
The question is one of timing. Allies in the 2160s, or the 2260s?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
> Before ENT, the most common assumption in all Trek history sites
>was that Earth had won the Earth-Romulan War due to its "superior
>technology". However, from what we now know, mid-22nd century Earth
>was actually a fairly primitive planet compared to other older
>space-faring civilizations. How did humans beat the Romulans then ?
>There's no hard evidence I know of that other species (Andorians,
>Vulcans, etc...) were involved in the conflict, so is it still safe to
>assume Earth won the war single-handed without even having a
>long-range space fleet at the time ? Again, I find that very unlikely.
It could be that the Romulans were defeated on the "eastern front" while
the humans were bravely fighting on the "western" one. Perhaps the war
really was "human/Romulan" from the human viewpoint, but "Vulcan/Romulan"
from the Romulan viewpoint, with only a minor sideshow on the human
front?
>I was under the impression that not even the Vulcans, much less the
>Romulans, had warp 7 engines by 2160. In fact, I remember from one of
>Archer's comments on ENT that even the state-of-the art highly
>classified Vulcan starships were believed to reach only warp 6.
That belief was challenged on ENT second season once or twice - apparently,
the best Vulcan ships can indeed do warp 7. Not warp 8, though.
>Also, researching a few Klingon history sites on the web, I found references
>to Klingons having warp-4 technology by ENT time, but that's probably
>just speculation.
It's in honor of John M. Ford's definite Klingon novel, which borrowed
its technobabble from the good old Spaceflight Chronology, an early 1980s
piece that in turn made a reference to TOS "The Cage" and its implication
that some sort of a speed barrier had been broken between the 2230s and
the 2250s, and decided that this barrier should be the speed of warp 4...
...in the house Jack made.
Obscure Trek traditions are *deeply* rooted in even more obscure Trek
traditions.
Timo Saloniemi
kristyleigh
all had warp technology before humans. Yet, by the 23rd or 24th
centuries, humans appear to be more technologically advanced than all
previously mentioned species. In fact, 24th-century Earth is probably
the most affluent and powerful planet among comparable civilizations
in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. How is that possible?<
I'd put it down to differing social structures and political
ideologies. Historically speaking, technological change comes through
contact with other cultures, and the degree of advancement is often
dictated by how free the exchange is. Although it isn't apparent in
the present series, Vulcan's and humans eventually overcame their
differences to form an alliance that was economically and
technologically beneficial to both cultures (if you look at the
example of post-war Japan, sixty years of trade, investment and free
market economy can see a bankrupt nation rise to a position of
economic power. The formation of a United Federation of Planets would
have had much the same effect for Earth, Vulcan and the other major
players).
By comparison, the Klingons and Romulans of this series have adopted
isolationist diplomatic policies, so their rate of technogical
advancement would conceivably be much slower than that of the
fledgeling federation (on the other hand, the Klingons are more than
capable of "raping" the resources of other species for their own
purposes, while Romulans seem to have the same natural scientific
curiosity as their Vulcan ancestors. Maybe it all balances out in the
end).
>By human standards, the Klingons live under a medieval, feudal
monarchy. It is very hard for me to imagine a highly advanced
technological society that would retain such a primitive
social/political structure.<
Well, I think it would be entirely possible for high technology to
co-exist beside feudal or totalitarian social structures. Once again,
drawing from the examples of history, militaristic aristocracies have
always employed technology to repress the general population and to
maintain the existing social structure. It doesn't matter whether that
new technology is a crossbow or a phase-pistol. Taking a serf out of
the fields and forcing him to work in an dialithum refinery doesn't
alter his position in society, at the end of the day, he's still a
serf.
I would also question whether the Klingons were ever a technologically
advenced society in the same sense as the Vulcans (or even the
Andorians); I've always seen them as cosmic freebooters pillaging
nearby cultures for natural resources. From this perspective, their
interest in science would have been completely utilitarian. On Earth,
Cochran's warp drive was viewed as major scientific breakthough; on
Kronos, the same technology would have been seen as nothing more than
a means to an end; another weapon to be deployed in their ongoing
conquest of "weaker" civilizations.
Presumably, Klingon science is almost entirely military in
application. I can't see their general population being allowed access
to any higher technology (one thing's for sure; we know that no
Klingon scientist ever thought of building a holographic matrix - the
idea probably wouldn't have occurred to them. The same could be said
of a great many devices common to the Federation but considered
luxuries within the Klingon Empire.)
Ciao, K.
Russell Stewart
> That belief was challenged on ENT second season once or twice - apparently,
> the best Vulcan ships can indeed do warp 7. Not warp 8, though.
With all of this talk about who had the biggest... um... warp
drive in and before ENT time, I can't help but wonder: are we
referring to the old (TOS) warp scale, or the new (TNG and
later) one? Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall reading at one point
that, in order to maintain consistency between TOS (when, on
a few occasions, the Enterprise exceeded "Warp 10") and TNG
(when Warp 10 seemed to be a sort of asymptotic barrier),
someone proposed the idea that, in the intervening century,
the Warp scale had been readjusted. So IOW, Warp 7 in (and
presumably before) the 23rd century does not mean the same
thing as Warp 7 in the 24th.
Mike Dicenso
Why not? If the Romulans were only a few light years away, it wouldn't be
too hard for the Vulcans to run into them on very regular basis, and
eventually map out their territory. But it would seem, based on the fact
that the VHC does not have direct contact, that the Romulan territory is
relatively far away. Note that the Vulcans have fairly good contact and
information on those powers (i.e. the Andorians, Tellarites, Klingons,
ect) near to them.
> So far, we haven't heard
> confirmation that Vulcans would know anything more about Romulans than
> how their name is spelled ("Minefield") and what sort of a flag they
> prefer ("The Forge").
Actually T'Pol tells Archer that the VHC has not had direct contact
with the Romulans, But she does point out that word has it they are an
aggressive and territoral species.
> Generally, the point with Romulan departure seemed
> to be a cutting of ties with Vulcan, which would make map updating an
> awkward process.
The VHC seemed to know something, and no one at any point claimed that
Romulus was right there on Earth's doorstep a few light years away.
> >All other canon indications are that the Romulan homeworlds lie a fair
> >distance away from Earth, and not near it at all.
>
> Well, we consistently hear of a comm delay, both in TOS and TNG. But
> we also see that ships get there and back in no time at all in TNG.
> So we could simply infer that the weather around there isn't kind
> on subspace messages.
Given that a warp 5 ship can actually manage around 1,500c, and the TOS
and TNG-era vessels are much faster speeds than that, it can't just be a
matter of "space weather". No, given an average maximum of 9,000c, it
would only take about 5 days to reach Romulan space. It would be
considerably less, if we use speed like the 21,400c number given by Paris
in "The 37's" for warp 9.9.
-Mike
Timo S Saloniemi
>Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
>
>> That belief was challenged on ENT second season once or twice - apparently,
>> the best Vulcan ships can indeed do warp 7. Not warp 8, though.
>
>With all of this talk about who had the biggest... um... warp
>drive in and before ENT time, I can't help but wonder: are we
>referring to the old (TOS) warp scale, or the new (TNG and
>later) one? Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall reading at one point
>that, in order to maintain consistency between TOS (when, on
>a few occasions, the Enterprise exceeded "Warp 10") and TNG
>(when Warp 10 seemed to be a sort of asymptotic barrier),
>someone proposed the idea that, in the intervening century,
>the Warp scale had been readjusted. So IOW, Warp 7 in (and
>presumably before) the 23rd century does not mean the same
>thing as Warp 7 in the 24th.
Not necessarily, no. But then again, it might. The only thing
we know *for sure* about warp speeds is that they do not abide
to the supposed TOS or TNG formulae at all. With both of those
formulae removed from the picture, it may be just as reasonable
to say "TOS warp 7 = TNG warp 7" as it would be to say the
opposite.
Timo Saloniemi
mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu
years away from Earth as per "Home", and combined with Scotty's "We can
have you back on Vulcan in four days, Mr. Spock" statement, a warp 7
starship can do at least about 1,500c. That is assuming that the ship
went at her maximum available speed as shown in the movie, and that he
didn't just mean warp 5 or warp 6 instead.
-Mike
Timo S Saloniemi
I'd assume he meant warp 8 or faster, since the ship was shown to be
capable of sustaining that for several days in "Amok Time" already.
Scotty would more probably be referring to the *extreme* performance
of his "bairns" than to some sort of regular cruise speed any old crate
could attain. "*WE* can have you back on Vulcan in four days", coming from
the Chief Engineer, sounds like an expression of justified pride...
Of course, it's possible that the ship was slower than before due to
the TMP refit. No need to think that high speed would be a fetish for
Starfleet; if the tradeoffs were good enough, a decrease in top or cruise
speed might well be acceptable.
Timo Saloniemi
Mike Dicenso
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
> In article <1102648371.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu writes:
> >Well, on that note, we know now that Vulcan is approximately 16 light
> >years away from Earth as per "Home", and combined with Scotty's "We can
> >have you back on Vulcan in four days, Mr. Spock" statement, a warp 7
> >starship can do at least about 1,500c. That is assuming that the ship
> >went at her maximum available speed as shown in the movie, and that he
> >didn't just mean warp 5 or warp 6 instead.
>
> I'd assume he meant warp 8 or faster, since the ship was shown to be
> capable of sustaining that for several days in "Amok Time" already.
> Scotty would more probably be referring to the *extreme* performance
> of his "bairns" than to some sort of regular cruise speed any old crate
> could attain. "*WE* can have you back on Vulcan in four days", coming from
> the Chief Engineer, sounds like an expression of justified pride...
Actually, there are several pieces of information that argue against that
being the case. In ST:TMP, the ship's warp engines were balanced to the
point where warp 7 seemed to be the best the ship could sustain in the
intercept of V'Ger (if they could've gone faster, don't you think they
would have to gain more time?). Since there hadn't been enough of a
passage of time for Scotty (with or without Spock's help) to work out the
remaining bugs in the warp drive, I must assume that this is the maximum
possible cruise speed available to the Enterprise at that time. Whether
the ship could sustain higher bursts of warp speed for any length of time
is a matter for debate.
> Of course, it's possible that the ship was slower than before due to
> the TMP refit. No need to think that high speed would be a fetish for
> Starfleet; if the tradeoffs were good enough, a decrease in top or cruise
> speed might well be acceptable.
See above. I don't think there was enough time to work out the issues with
the warp drive quickly enough to allow for safe sustained speeds above
warp 7. Adding to the evidence is the fact that the NX-01 with a top speed
of warp 5 can maintain around 1,500 to 1,700c for 3-6 days as per "Cease
Fire", and "Horizon". So the E-1701 must logically have been capable of
getting Spock home in 4 days at warp 4.5 to warp 5.
But no matter how you look at it, the backstage TOS formula doesn't pan
out here. Furthermore, at around 1,500c, it still takes thousands of years
for the E-1701 to get to Andromeda, as per Kirk's statement to Rojan in
"By Any Other Name", while at the same time enabling the ship to get to
other destinations within the Milky Way in much more reasonable amounts of
time.
-Mike
Timo S Saloniemi
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
>> In article <1102648371.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> mdic...@seds.lpl.arizona.edu writes:
>> >Well, on that note, we know now that Vulcan is approximately 16 light
>> >years away from Earth as per "Home", and combined with Scotty's "We can
>> >have you back on Vulcan in four days, Mr. Spock" statement, a warp 7
>> >starship can do at least about 1,500c.
>> I'd assume he meant warp 8 or faster, since the ship was shown to be
>> capable of sustaining that for several days in "Amok Time" already.
>Actually, there are several pieces of information that argue against that
>being the case. In ST:TMP, the ship's warp engines were balanced to the
>point where warp 7 seemed to be the best the ship could sustain in the
>intercept of V'Ger (if they could've gone faster, don't you think they
>would have to gain more time?). Since there hadn't been enough of a
>passage of time for Scotty (with or without Spock's help) to work out the
>remaining bugs in the warp drive, I must assume that this is the maximum
>possible cruise speed available to the Enterprise at that time. Whether
>the ship could sustain higher bursts of warp speed for any length of time
>is a matter for debate.
Agreed in theory.
OTOH, all Scotty was asking for initially was a little more time to run
some simulations. Perhaps the delay in certifying the engines to
warp 8+ cruising would be a matter of hours rather than days - hours
Kirk could not waste during the initial intercept, which only lasted
for some hours itself.
>> Of course, it's possible that the ship was slower than before due to
>> the TMP refit. No need to think that high speed would be a fetish for
>> Starfleet; if the tradeoffs were good enough, a decrease in top or cruise
>> speed might well be acceptable.
>See above. I don't think there was enough time to work out the issues with
>the warp drive quickly enough to allow for safe sustained speeds above
>warp 7.
Overall, it seems a little bit abrupt for Kirk to start talking about
going on to the next adventure mere two seconds after the universe was
saved from this starsystem-busting monster. Perhaps it would be possible
to insert a few hours of subspace briefing with Space Central before
Kirk orders the "thataway"? Enough time for Spock and McCoy to hop into
each other's clothes and back, too. :)
>Adding to the evidence is the fact that the NX-01 with a top speed
>of warp 5 can maintain around 1,500 to 1,700c for 3-6 days as per "Cease
>Fire", and "Horizon". So the E-1701 must logically have been capable of
>getting Spock home in 4 days at warp 4.5 to warp 5.
Good points. It does seem Scotty wasn't going to go all-out on his
new toy right away after all.
>But no matter how you look at it, the backstage TOS formula doesn't pan
>out here. Furthermore, at around 1,500c, it still takes thousands of years
>for the E-1701 to get to Andromeda, as per Kirk's statement to Rojan in
>"By Any Other Name", while at the same time enabling the ship to get to
>other destinations within the Milky Way in much more reasonable amounts of
>time.
This is definitely in the plotwise-acceptable ballpark for middle warp
factors. Now we need to make the high ones faster than the backstage
formula by one or two orders of magnitude, and somehow increase warp
2 and warp 3 enough to make them viable interstellar speeds, and we're
done.
Timo Saloniemi
Mike Dicenso
Actually, Scotty does not say that he needs "a little more" time on the
flow sensors. We have no idea how long it would have taken, but Kirk was
not satisfied with just waiting around, and after the wormhole incident,
Scotty certainly says nothing about needing only a little bit more of
time. The strong implication is that the work will require hours, maybe a
day.
> >> Of course, it's possible that the ship was slower than before due to
> >> the TMP refit. No need to think that high speed would be a fetish for
> >> Starfleet; if the tradeoffs were good enough, a decrease in top or cruise
> >> speed might well be acceptable.
>
> >See above. I don't think there was enough time to work out the issues with
> >the warp drive quickly enough to allow for safe sustained speeds above
> >warp 7.
>
> Overall, it seems a little bit abrupt for Kirk to start talking about
> going on to the next adventure mere two seconds after the universe was
> saved from this starsystem-busting monster. Perhaps it would be possible
> to insert a few hours of subspace briefing with Space Central before
> Kirk orders the "thataway"? Enough time for Spock and McCoy to hop into
> each other's clothes and back, too. :)
No, the flow of the scene does not allow for that, and immediately after
Kirk does the "thataway" bit we cut to the glorious exterior shot of the
Enterprise going into warp. Besides which, no assignment was necessary,
Kirk does say to Scotty that it's about time the shakedown, to which
Scotty heartily agrees.
> >Adding to the evidence is the fact that the NX-01 with a top speed
> >of warp 5 can maintain around 1,500 to 1,700c for 3-6 days as per "Cease
> >Fire", and "Horizon". So the E-1701 must logically have been capable of
> >getting Spock home in 4 days at warp 4.5 to warp 5.
>
> Good points. It does seem Scotty wasn't going to go all-out on his
> new toy right away after all.
Indeed, and it ties in well with the new information about Vulcan being 16
ly away from Earth, and the "four days" statement by Scotty to Spock.
> >But no matter how you look at it, the backstage TOS formula doesn't pan
> >out here. Furthermore, at around 1,500c, it still takes thousands of years
> >for the E-1701 to get to Andromeda, as per Kirk's statement to Rojan in
> >"By Any Other Name", while at the same time enabling the ship to get to
> >other destinations within the Milky Way in much more reasonable amounts of
> >time.
>
> This is definitely in the plotwise-acceptable ballpark for middle warp
> factors. Now we need to make the high ones faster than the backstage
> formula by one or two orders of magnitude, and somehow increase warp
> 2 and warp 3 enough to make them viable interstellar speeds, and we're
> done.
If you want to really do that, just remember that warp 1.8 was enough to
get the ECS Horizon out to where it was only less than a week for the
NX-01 to rendevous with her. Also look at TOS' "Bread and Circuses" and
TNG's "Where Silence Has Lease" to see travel across huge distances at low
warp in a relatively short period of time.
-Mike