Explanation of Inner Light
Mark W. Poole
really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
wife and friend could all of a sudden show up at the end, just
as the missile was being launched....and what happened to
Pickard's character on the planet after he returned to
consiousness on the Enterprise? It really threw me.
Can someone please explain this to me or direct me to a
ftp site with "episode explanations".
Thanks,
Mark.
William F. Jolitz
And to think that I felt this fine episode could have been improved by
moving the enterprise scenes to the end. My husband agreed, but said
that people wouldn't understand it at all unless they had these "helper"
sections to explain that he was experiencing another life but not present
physically on this world -- it was all in his mind (a "what is reality?"
parable.)
If you are still confused, read "The Dream Millennium" by James White.
It's not a ST book, but it is a classic in the genre, and developed this
idea more fully.
By the way, The Inner Light is bar-none the best TNG episode they have made!
The simplicity and beauty of living a good and kind life is something we rarely
see lauded in the cynical world of today. I hope the writer does more work
with TNG.
Lynne Jolitz.
KELSEY, Michael H.
protection when you are writing about episodes! If you've seen the
episode before, that DOESN'T mean everyone has!
In article <1992Sep14.1...@mlb.semi.harris.com>,
Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.
The "nucleonic beam" the probe was transmitting to Picard lasted 25
minutes of ship's time. That beam appears to have been writing memories
into Picard's brain, which Picard experienced as "real," in much the
way that we experience dreams as "real" _while_we_are_dreaming_. At
the end of the beam transmission, the probe was _programmed_ to explain
to the recipient what was going on. It did so by bringing back the major
characters of Picard's "dream" and having them tell him what was going
on. That is why "Ellene" (spelling?) could tell Kamens/Picard that she
and everyone else "has been dead for 1000 years."
In short, Picard was NEVER "on the planet." Instead, the memories of the
actual designer of the probe were transmitted to Picard, and in his
"dream" he assumed that personality. Since we were seeing things from
Picard's point of view, the Kamens personality had the physical appearance
of Picard. In fact, it is possible that the inhabitants of the Katan
system were not even humanoid, and that the humanoid form was imposed
on their "dream" personalities by Picard's mind. The flute would tend to
deny that, however.
I hope this clears up your confusion.
-- Mike Kelsey
[ My opinions are not endorsed by SLAC, Caltech, or the US government ]
What is your _name_? "kel...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu"
What is your _quest_? "To get a Ph.D. in high-energy physics"
When will you _finish_? "I don't know. Waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh..."
Dave Schaumann
>I just saw "Inner Light" for the first time this weekend, and
>really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
There's no `k' in `Picard'... --------------------------|
>wife and friend could all of a sudden show up at the end, just
>as the missile was being launched....and what happened to
>Pickard's character on the planet after he returned to
>consiousness on the Enterprise? It really threw me.
Let's take a look at what we know:
1. The planet (sorry, don't recall the name off hand) was completely
destroyed ~1000 years before the Enterprise encountered the probe.
2. The technological level of the civilization was limited -- for instance,
there was no evidence that they could have 2-way communication across
time.
The logical conclusion is that everything we saw in the episode took place
on the Enterprise in Picard's mind, and on the probe.
My best guess is that the probe was some kind of "holodeck for the mind",
containing information to simulate a bit of the culture and people of those
who built it. Thus, Batai, Eleen and all the others never met Picard -- only
computer simulations of them did. This still leaves the question of how they
crammed 30+ years of experience into 25 minutes, but IMHO its a reasonable
explanation, as far as it goes.
--
You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another
dimension: a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind.
You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas.
You've just crossed over into... the Twilight Zone.
Richard Izzo
>My best guess is that the probe was some kind of "holodeck for the mind",
>containing information to simulate a bit of the culture and people of those
>who built it. Thus, Batai, Eleen and all the others never met Picard -- only
>computer simulations of them did. This still leaves the question of how they
>crammed 30+ years of experience into 25 minutes, but IMHO its a reasonable
>explanation, as far as it goes.
I was thinking that maybe Picard was experiencing what we were seeing;
namely, pieces of his alternative "life." Through some hypnotic means,
Picard might have been made to think that his "life" has been continuous.
That might be an answer.
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
[] rich. Bradley University []
[] sp...@camelot.bradley.edu Peoria, IL []
[] "Cute rots the intellect." -Garfield []
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Tim Dodd
>Spoilers for "The Inner Light" Follow. People, PLEASE use spoiler
>In short, Picard was NEVER "on the planet." Instead, the memories of the
>actual designer of the probe were transmitted to Picard, and in his
>"dream" he assumed that personality. Since we were seeing things from
This is inaccurate. The dream experienced by Picard was not composed of
memories of the actual probe designer. The dream memories were fabricated
for the specific purpose of transmitting a record of the Kataanian civilization
into the future. Kamen is a *fictional* character, although he is certainly
based on the reality of life on Kataan as it was before its sun went nova
(he may have even been based on a actual person, as may the other characters
in Picard's dream). Witness:
1. When Picard first "arrived" on Kataan, his wife was wearing a pendant
shaped exactly like the probe the E. encountered in space. This shows
that the dream is not an actual record: the probe itself would not
be built for another 35+ years.
2. Kamen did not design the probe and indeed had no knowledge of it until
just before it was launched.
Now for a not so serious nitpick: how are we supposed to accept these
people (the inhabitants of Kataan) as aliens? They don't have any bumps
on their foreheads!
Tim
--
"Truth is under all circumstances more valuable than nontruth, and this
must apply to truth in the realm of history as to other kinds of truth."
-- Albert Schweitzer, _Out of My Life and Thought_
Tim Dodd, Research Scientist, Georgia Tech ceg...@prism.gatech.edu
z_cl...@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
The Alien probe projecting life experiences in Picards mind.
He really didn't live through it, but does have the
memory of the peoples experiences. All this occurred
within 20 real life yime minutes. I guess you could
say Picard had one heck of a dream!
Ryan Rogers
> In article <1992Sep14.1...@mlb.semi.harris.com>, m...@ms9.mis.semi.harris.com (Mark W. Poole) writes:
> > I just saw "Inner Light" for the first time this weekend, and
> > really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
> > wife and friend could all of a sudden show up at the end, just
> > as the missile was being launched....and what happened to
> > Pickard's character on the planet after he returned to
> > consiousness on the Enterprise? It really threw me.
> >
Did anyone else have any problems with the fact that the people who
launched the probe barely had enough technology to launch missiles, and
yet they were able to penetrate the E-D's shields?
--
Sincerely,
Ryan Rogers
H. G. Butch Walker Jr.
(William F. Jolitz) writes:
>By the way, The Inner Light is bar-none the best TNG episode they have
made!
|>The simplicity and beauty of living a good and kind life is something
|>we rarely
|>see lauded in the cynical world of today. I hope the writer does more
|>work
|>with TNG.
Ditto. It may be the best ST episode ever made. IMHO, of course.
Butch
CXMP
>I just saw "Inner Light" for the first time this weekend, and
>really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
>wife and friend could all of a sudden show up at the end, just
>as the missile was being launched....and what happened to
>Pickard's character on the planet after he returned to
>consiousness on the Enterprise? It really threw me.
This may have already been explained on the net but here goes.
First of all, Picard's character was never on the planet, nor was he
living out someone else's life. The probe that was sent contained
information about the planet. The problem with sending such a probe
is a) nobody may receive it, b) there might not be anyone to receive
it (it is made clear that these people don't have knowledge of other
worlds) and c) whoever might receive it might not know what to make
of it. The solution? Design a probe that sends information directly
into the receiver's mind. Of course, this probe did more than that:
this probe *interacted* with the receiver (Picard) in such a way
that the receiver would believe he was part of their culture and learn
"firsthand".
Some interesting points. First of all, it wouldn't have made sense
for any of the planet's inhabitants to have had latex on their face or
pointy ears because they *probably* didn't really look like that; they
had no way of knowing what kind of creatures would encounter the probe.
Second, by having Picard live "out his life" as one of them, Picard
was able to choose what information he would receive. Third, knowing
that they were dying, they wanted to have their culture live on; this
is why the probe was "empty" except for the flute. Remember: Picard was
told by "his wife" that "he" wanted to learn how to play it; learning
to play the flute was to be one of the things they wanted Picard to pass
on to his species. Finally, "his wife" and "his friend" were only
*based* on real people; you can imagine that in real life these two were
people who worked together on the probe. You can also imagine how the
experience might have been different if it had been someone other than
Picard who was selected by the probe.
Actually, until you made me think about it, it didn't make sense to *me*
either.
Now let's see if my signature works this time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
! Address as above or use
Martin Phipps ! LO...@physics.mcgill.ca or simply
! MUHEP::LOULA if you're on a VAX
------------------------------------------------------------------------
H. Austin Hummel
Wouldn't it be wonderful, if every one could experience the other persons
view point though this type of exchange. could be less wars.
Dennis Heffernan
| Did anyone else have any problems with the fact that the people who
|launched the probe barely had enough technology to launch missiles, and
|yet they were able to penetrate the E-D's shields?
|
Yep. Great big Godzilla-sized ones.
Not to mention building the mind control gizmo in the first place.
Or even building ANYTHING that was still working a thousand years after
being launched...must have been using those new Duracells.
dfra...@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't
you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
Michael Gates
KMH> Spoilers for "The Inner Light" Follow. People, PLEASE use spoiler
KMH> protection when you are writing about episodes! If you've seen the
KMH> episode before, that DOESN'T mean everyone has!
KMH> (Mark W. Poole) says:
>
>I just saw "Inner Light" for the first time this weekend, and
>really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
>wife and friend could all of a sudden show up at the end, just
>as the missile was being launched....and what happened to
>Pickard's character on the planet after he returned to
>consiousness on the Enterprise? It really threw me.
>
>Can someone please explain this to me or direct me to a
>ftp site with "episode explanations".
...
KMH> The "nucleonic beam" the probe was transmitting to Picard lasted 25
KMH> minutes of ship's time. That beam appears to have been writing memories
KMH> into Picard's brain, which Picard experienced as "real," in much the
KMH> way that we experience dreams as "real" _while_we_are_dreaming_. At
KMH> the end of the beam transmission, the probe was _programmed_ to explain
KMH> to the recipient what was going on. It did so by bringing back the major
KMH> characters of Picard's "dream" and having them tell him what was going
KMH> on. That is why "Ellene" (spelling?) could tell Kamens/Picard that she
KMH> and everyone else "has been dead for 1000 years."
KMH> In short, Picard was NEVER "on the planet." Instead, the memories of the
KMH> actual designer of the probe were transmitted to Picard, and in his
KMH> "dream" he assumed that personality. Since we were seeing things from
KMH> Picard's point of view, the Kamens personality had the physical appearance
KMH> of Picard. In fact, it is possible that the inhabitants of the Katan
KMH> system were not even humanoid, and that the humanoid form was imposed
KMH> on their "dream" personalities by Picard's mind. The flute would tend to
KMH> deny that, however.
KMH> I hope this clears up your confusion.
If that is the case, then how could Picard's personality and memories
affect the life of Kamen 1000 years before. Such as playing "Frere Jacques" on
the flute, being estranged from his wife for years, changing from "ironweaver"
to general scientist, etc.
This episode had gargantuan holes in it.
And we sure better see the effects on Picard of living an entire life
with a wife and children in another culture. But we won't. That is one of the
big problems with Star Trek, there are rarely any lasting effects on the
characters.
--
et tu mgates?
Mel Walker
mga...@entiat.boeing.com writes:
>>>>>> On 14 Sep 92 21:39:07 GMT, KEL...@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
(KELSEY,
>Michael H.) said:
>> Spoilers for "The Inner Light" Follow. People, PLEASE use spoiler
>> In short, Picard was NEVER "on the planet." Instead, the memories of
the
>> actual designer of the probe were transmitted to Picard, and in his
>> "dream" he assumed that personality. Since we were seeing things from
>> Picard's point of view, the Kamens personality had the physical
appearance
>> of Picard. In fact, it is possible that the inhabitants of the Katan
>> system were not even humanoid, and that the humanoid form was imposed
>> on their "dream" personalities by Picard's mind. The flute would tend
to
>> deny that, however.
>
>> I hope this clears up your confusion.
>
> If that is the case, then how could Picard's personality and memories
>affect the life of Kamen 1000 years before. Such as playing "Frere
Jacques" on
>the flute, being estranged from his wife for years, changing from
"ironweaver"
>to general scientist, etc.
You're right. Picard's personality COULDN'T affect Kamen's life. That's
why it DIDN'T. The whole thing took place in Picard's mind. The fact that
it was based on a historical figure (Kamen) does not mean it wasn't
fictional.
> This episode had gargantuan holes in it.
Could be, but this wasn't one of them.
Eli Boaz
Why are you equating missile technology with their overall tech. level?
Just because *we* just happened to let our military technology outgrow
our other technologies, doesn't mean that other civilizations have to
follow the same pattern. It would seem to me that they applied a lot
of their "energy" towards medical related technologies. The probe was
not that sophisticated in the propulsion area, but what about the
"memories" that it was implanting into Picard?
I do believe that this was talked about in **great** detail the first
time that The Inner Light (TIL) was shown, so if someone still has the
"final" conclusions somewhere, please repost... (Not this thread
again....)
Sigh,
--
Eli Boaz | Line noise provide by S.W. Bell Telephone!
rais...@wixer.cactus.org | "Anyone not wearing 2 million sunblock is
...!cactus.org!wixer!raistlin | going to have a REAL BAD DAY, get it?" -T2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Gertz
>>>>>> On 14 Sep 92 21:39:07 GMT, KEL...@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (KELSEY, Michael H.) said:
>
>KMH> Spoilers for "The Inner Light" Follow. People, PLEASE use spoiler
>KMH> protection when you are writing about episodes! If you've seen the
>KMH> episode before, that DOESN'T mean everyone has!
>
>KMH> (Mark W. Poole) says:
>>
>>I just saw "Inner Light" for the first time this weekend, and
>>really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
>>wife and friend could all of a sudden show up at the end, just
>>as the missile was being launched....and what happened to
>>Pickard's character on the planet after he returned to
>>consiousness on the Enterprise? It really threw me.
>>
>>Can someone please explain this to me or direct me to a
>>ftp site with "episode explanations".
>...
>
>KMH> actual designer of the probe were transmitted to Picard, and in his
>KMH> "dream" he assumed that personality. Since we were seeing things from
>KMH> Picard's point of view, the Kamens personality had the physical
>KMH> of Picard. In fact, it is possible that the inhabitants of the Katan
>KMH> system were not even humanoid, and that the humanoid form was imposed
>KMH> on their "dream" personalities by Picard's mind. The flute would tend to
>KMH> deny that, however.
>
>KMH> I hope this clears up your confusion.
>
> If that is the case, then how could Picard's personality and memories
>affect the life of Kamen 1000 years before. Such as playing "Frere Jacques" on
>the flute, being estranged from his wife for years, changing from "ironweaver"
>to general scientist, etc.
It didn't affect Kamen's life. There may not have even been a Kamen. The
Kamen character was created as a role for Picard to (unknowingly) play just
so he could learn about Katanians and tell others about them, so that their
culture would not fall into oblivion. Think of it as a "Choose Your Own
Adventure" story.
The thing is, Picard in no way affected "what was." He was simply the
victim of a rather well-programmed museum exhibit, very complex, in which
a person could learn about a society by participating in a diaroma-like
version of it.
> This episode had gargantuan holes in it.
I rather liked it. For me, the biggest hole was the method by which they
choosed to super-play this tapestry of scenes through Picard's head, but
all in all, it ranks in my top ten.
>
> And we sure better see the effects on Picard of living an entire life
>with a wife and children in another culture.
We don't know how long subjectively Picard was actually in character. It could
be like a dream, with much of it forgotten after a while (perhaps the Katanians
assumed all species remember dreams perfectly, but we humans sure don't).
Perhaps all that we saw of Picard's life of Katan was all that he was shown
but like a dream, the sudden jumps in time, sequence, and evolution of
chatacter were not noticed by the dreamer (until later), thus making his
total subjective time as a Katanian less than 45 minutes long...
> But we won't. That is one of the
>big problems with Star Trek, there are rarely any lasting effects on the
>characters.
Now there I *really* have to disagree with you. Worf, for instance, has
changed substantially, due to the serial-like storylines which revolve around
him. Data has evolved (he even laughs occasionally now, I notice), and Picard
has shown effects from the Borg incident in "Family," "I, Borg," and <the
name of the episode escapes me, but it's the one with the Romulan witchhunt
in it>. Given time, I could probably come up with more.
--Matt--*
--
Matt Gertz, mwge...@cs.cmu.edu
Dept. of ECE, The Robotics Institute at Carnegie Mellon University.
Tom Thatcher
>Spoilers for "The Inner Light" Follow. People, PLEASE use spoiler
>protection when you are writing about episodes! If you've seen the
>episode before, that DOESN'T mean everyone has!
>
>In article <1992Sep14.1...@mlb.semi.harris.com>,
>m...@ms9.mis.semi.harris.com (Mark W. Poole) says:
>>
>>I just saw "Inner Light" for the first time this weekend, and
>>really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
>>wife and friend could all of a sudden show up at the end, just
>>as the missile was being launched....and what happened to
>>Pickard's character on the planet after he returned to
>>consiousness on the Enterprise? It really threw me.
>>
>
>minutes of ship's time. That beam appears to have been writing memories
>into Picard's brain, which Picard experienced as "real," in much the
>way that we experience dreams as "real" _while_we_are_dreaming_. At
>the end of the beam transmission, the probe was _programmed_ to explain
>to the recipient what was going on. It did so by bringing back the major
>characters of Picard's "dream" and having them tell him what was going
>on. That is why "Ellene" (spelling?) could tell Kamens/Picard that she
>and everyone else "has been dead for 1000 years."
>
>In short, Picard was NEVER "on the planet." Instead, the memories of the
>actual designer of the probe were transmitted to Picard, and in his
>"dream" he assumed that personality. Since we were seeing things from
>Picard's point of view, the Kamens personality had the physical appearance
>of Picard. In fact, it is possible that the inhabitants of the Katan
>system were not even humanoid, and that the humanoid form was imposed
>on their "dream" personalities by Picard's mind. The flute would tend to
>deny that, however.
>
>I hope this clears up your confusion.
I think that the probe contained an interactive computer simulation, rather
than memories of an actual person. Otherwise, how could the designer know
that whoever the probe found would be capable of building a telescope,etc.
I also think that the Katans were humanoid. If not, then imposing humanity
upon themselves would be a pretty poor way of explaining your lifesttheiryle.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ "What must I do to convince you?" ^ Tom Thatcher ^
^ "Die." ^ University of Rochester ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
William F. Jolitz
In article <1992Sep15.1...@watson.ibm.com> rro...@watson.ibm.com (Ryan Rogers) writes:
> Did anyone else have any problems with the fact that the people who
>launched the probe barely had enough technology to launch missiles, and
>yet they were able to penetrate the E-D's shields?
Not at all. Technologic development is not necessarily a linear process.
The fact that they could affect the mind so effectively that for
all practical purposes "it did happen" (e.g. the ability to play the
flute after it was over) in a manner that the Federation couldn't explain
just implied that perhaps they spent their energies on different pursuits.
Besides, most missile development has occurred due to military and security
needs. These people, in contrast, seemed to be very peacefully and communally
inclined (which may also explain their willingness to let memories be their
legacy). Don't be mislead by assuming that another world's (or even
an individual's) work, values, and aspirations would be similar to what
another would perceive as important.
Lynne Jolitz.
Ann M. DeLong
still have a question: I am sure I heard Ellene say they wanted
the probe to find someone to teach them, and improve what was left
of their lives, as well as someone to pass on their culture to.
Anyone else remember this? That would make it an interactive
dream for Picard, but also have integrated his life experiences
in the past of the planet? Am I even close on this??????
Thanks!!!
Ann M. DeLong
3453VMR@CMUVM (BITNET) 3453VMR.CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (INTERNET)
"Please hassle me - I thrive on stress." Boynton
Larry Autry
> The probe was
>not that sophisticated in the propulsion area, but what about the
>"memories" that it was implanting into Picard?
>
Trek, I try to overlook it depending upon the degree of probability I
believe there is concerning it. Certainly, many things about the episode
"The Inner Light" I questioned. However, I found the show very
entertaining and intriguing. For this reason I'm sure I forgave whatever
inconsistancies in the technology portion of the story line might have
existed.
I have never seen the episode "The Inner Light" before so to me this is not
an old thread. I can see why there was probably so much discussion at the
time of it's first airing. It's really funny in a way that science that is
hypothetical could generate discussion not about it's plausibility, but
which technology came first in this civilization, medical or aviation (ala
missiles).
I enjoyed the story it was quite interesting to see the contrasting time
lines of the Enterprise and the "experience".
Notwithstanding the plausibility of the technology, I put forth my own
opinion here. A key phrase in the TV guide plot description read something
like "Picard finds himself living another man's life". I agree with this
and go one step further. The character of the man was quite apparently
the incarnation of Picard. All character's, including Picard, were also
quite apparently, playing off of each other. The beam then to me, appeared
to be engaging Picard's mind with a mental version of what on a computer
would be an adventure program where all character's have more or less
predictable behaviour with some degree of permitted randomness.
The one bit of the story that stood out from the rest to me was, the part
where Eline's probe-shaped pendant hung down and Picard noticed the
design. This part of the story doesn't appear to have any major importance
but is nevertheless interesting.
Summary: I loved the episode and would like to see some sort of a sequel
or a continuation of the story line. Also, let's not take science fiction
too seriously. To me it's strictly entertainment with a technological
plot. Plausibility is the key word. It should thinkable, imaginable or
explainable all within the realm of the story's environment.
--
Larry Autry
Silicon Graphics, St. Louis
au...@sgi.com
Bill Turner
>>
>> And we sure better see the effects on Picard of living an entire life
>>with a wife and children in another culture.
>
>We don't know how long subjectively Picard was actually in character. It could
>be like a dream, with much of it forgotten after a while (perhaps the Katanians
>assumed all species remember dreams perfectly, but we humans sure don't).
>Perhaps all that we saw of Picard's life of Katan was all that he was shown
>but like a dream, the sudden jumps in time, sequence, and evolution of
>chatacter were not noticed by the dreamer (until later), thus making his
>total subjective time as a Katanian less than 45 minutes long...
Actually, Picard has been affected, rather profoundly. I really enjoyed
the changes that took place as he assimilated into the Katanian culture,
especially as shown by the flute. At first, when he did play the flute
is was with Terran tunes (Frere Jacques); eventually (at his son's birth
ceremony) he was only playing Katanian music. After his recovery, on
the Big E, when he was given the flute by Riker he was obviously moved,
and the first thing he played was the Katanian song he played earlier.
A very moving closing scene, IMO.
--Bill Turner (btu...@cv.hp.com)
HP User Interface Technology Division, Corvallis
Tim Dodd
)I have read all the follow-ups to Explanation of Inner Light and I
)still have a question: I am sure I heard Ellene say they wanted
)the probe to find someone to teach them, and improve what was left
)of their lives, as well as someone to pass on their culture to.
)Anyone else remember this? That would make it an interactive
)dream for Picard, but also have integrated his life experiences
)in the past of the planet? Am I even close on this??????
I think what she said was "Teach them of us," meaning, teach your
people (the people of the future) of Kataan and its people. It was
strictly a one-way transmission.
William F. Jolitz
In article <92260.105...@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Ann M. DeLong <345...@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> writes:
>I have read all the follow-ups to Explanation of Inner Light and I
>still have a question: I am sure I heard Ellene say they wanted
>the probe to find someone to teach them, and improve what was left
>of their lives, as well as someone to pass on their culture to.
>Anyone else remember this? That would make it an interactive
>dream for Picard, but also have integrated his life experiences
>in the past of the planet? Am I even close on this??????
No. She asked him to teach the rest of the "universe" about their world,
life, and culture. To teach and understand, he "lived" on this world -- a
lifetime of experiences in a moment.
Thus, they do not fade away into oblivion. Instead, their culture lives
on, in the living memories and stories of a "teacher".
Remember, even if someone has died, they can still live on in the hearts
and minds of those who carry the memory of that life -- as long as someone
is willing to listen and learn.
Lynne Jolitz.
Erick Singley
>on, in the living memories and stories of a "teacher".
>Remember, even if someone has died, they can still live on in the hearts
>and minds of those who carry the memory of that life -- as long as someone
>is willing to listen and learn.
Yeah, but the probe then shut down. Kinda funny to have only *ONE* person be
the recepient of a culture's way of life. Seems as thou' the probe took a
big chance that the ONE person it chose would appreciate the culture and
want to tell others about it. I thought it was really mean of the probe's
people to make Pikard think his entire previous existance was a lie. The
man has an entire world, political, social, friendship history that is now
entirily moot (while in the fantasy). True- he gets to like children/ have a
family/ live a peacful life; but to have half a lifetime growing and have the
rug yanked out and another forced upon you (He did try to get out- searched
for captors, tried to get in touch with leaders ['do you have contact with
other planets? do you have a form of planetwide communication?']) is really
cruel. To have lost someone whom you have loved and know SHE wasn't 'real'
puts a lot of heavy duty thinking on you.
Erick
Ian Kennedy
>> In article <1992Sep14.1...@mlb.semi.harris.com>, m...@ms9.mis.semi.harris.com (Mark W. Poole) writes:
>> > I just saw "Inner Light" for the first time this weekend, and
>> > really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
> Did anyone else have any problems with the fact that the people who
>launched the probe barely had enough technology to launch missiles, and
>yet they were able to penetrate the E-D's shields?
You assume that all planets develop technology at the same rate and in the
same way as Earth? Perhaps they never needed misiles before now. Perhaps
they forgot how to build missiles? I dunno. But to assume that
all alien cultures/technology will develop like ours is silly. Where would
we be, space technology wise, without the cold war and the
space race of the 1960s? Medical research would have gone on regardless.
--
/* Ia...@Microsoft.com */
/* Waiting for what comes after the A4000! */
/* In the meantime I think I'll pick up a */
/* '486 box... */
Sean Klingler
>In article <92260.105...@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU) 345...@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (Ann M. DeLong) writes:
>
>I think what she said was "Teach them of us," meaning, teach your
>people (the people of the future) of Kataan and its people. It was
>strictly a one-way transmission.
>
I don't think it was a one-way transmission. The character acted too
much like Picard. If it were one-way Picard never would have tried
to use his communicator or have studied the stars so intensely.
I believe it was something Virtual Reality, where Picards mind was
fed the situation as it was on the planet as the planet was dying.
It was up to Picard to react and interract with those on the planet.
In this way he would better understand the society because he was
actually part of it, not just viewing it. The fact that Picard
slowly becomes part of the culture, and eventually comes to believe
that he really is on this planet (when meets with the politician in
the town square) shows that he is actually part of the events.
Just my 2 cents.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean D. Klingler (sdk) 242-5109
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: s...@ccd.harris.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe the person who said "winning isn't everything"
NEVER WON ANYTHING.
Tim Dodd
+In article <68...@hydra.gatech.EDU) ceg...@prism.gatech.EDU (Tim Dodd) writes:
++I think what she said was "Teach them of us," meaning, teach your
++people (the people of the future) of Kataan and its people. It was
++strictly a one-way transmission.
+
+I don't think it was a one-way transmission. The character acted too
+much like Picard. If it were one-way Picard never would have tried
+to use his communicator or have studied the stars so intensely.
+
+I believe it was something Virtual Reality, where Picards mind was
+fed the situation as it was on the planet as the planet was dying.
+It was up to Picard to react and interract with those on the planet.
+In this way he would better understand the society because he was
+actually part of it, not just viewing it. The fact that Picard
+slowly becomes part of the culture, and eventually comes to believe
+that he really is on this planet (when meets with the politician in
+the town square) shows that he is actually part of the events.
What you have just described IS a one-way transmission in the sense
spoken of in the original post, meaning transmission from past to
future, but no information is returned to the Kataanian past.
Jorge Diaz
>In article <68...@hydra.gatech.EDU> ceg...@prism.gatech.EDU (Tim Dodd) writes:
>I don't think it was a one-way transmission. The character acted too
>much like Picard. If it were one-way Picard never would have tried
>to use his communicator or have studied the stars so intensely.
>I believe it was something Virtual Reality, where Picards mind was
>fed the situation as it was on the planet as the planet was dying.
>It was up to Picard to react and interract with those on the planet.
>In this way he would better understand the society because he was
>actually part of it, not just viewing it. The fact that Picard
>slowly becomes part of the culture, and eventually comes to believe
>that he really is on this planet (when meets with the politician in
>the town square) shows that he is actually part of the events.
This is something that I hadn't thought of at the time that I saw the
episode, but the recent postings made me think that it is possible....
OK, where this idea came from:
Raymond E. Fiest wrote a series of fantasy books called The Riftwar Saga
(bear with me :-). Thomas, one of the characters in the book found a suit
of armor in the den of a dying dragon (dying of old age - this thing had
been there a looooong time)...
Anyway, he puts it on, and soon, he starts to feel the presence of another
being in his mind. Later, he and the other character merged into one, and
he had all the memories, etc. of both. Here's the trick:
This other character (whose name I can't remember) had lived and died many
years before. He had also felt Thomas' presence in his mind when he was
still alive (although Thomas wasn't even born yet). The act of Thomas putting
on the armor created a two-way connection: each one felt the other in his
own time.
This could very well be what happened here.... This probe was placing all
these memories in Picard's head, while at the same time, Picard was back
in their time, 1000 years before. This would explain why the character acted
like Picard, and thought he was Picard, etc....
In the book, the whole thing was explained as magic. Here, we don't have
magic, but you know what they say about any sufficiently advanced technology.
I realize that I haven't explained myself very well, but I hope you can
piece together what I'm trying to get at...
--
Jorge Diaz | Sign in a restaurant:
Georgia Institute of Technology |
Office of Information Technology | "We reserve the right to serve refuse to
cco...@prism.gatech.edu | anyone."
scsd...@altair.selu.edu
[...previous level quote material deleted]
>
> Did anyone else have any problems with the fact that the people who
> launched the probe barely had enough technology to launch missiles, and
> yet they were able to penetrate the E-D's shields?
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> Ryan Rogers
"Inner Light" may well turn out to be my favorite ST episode.
I found it powerful and compelling. Yet, the matter you spoke
of has been somewhat troubling. I, too, find it difficult to
believe that a society sufficiently advanced to produce the
technology needed to make the probe work would be only in the
earliest stages of missile development and space exploration.
As you point out, penetrating E-D's shields would be quite a
feat for a society on that level of development. But then, to
know enough about DNA, the human brain, the mind, AND to be
able to program the probe ... Well, the programming itself
would be a monumental task even if you had all the other
knowledge.
As you see, my remarks assume the people who sent the probe
were human. It seems like a reasonable assumption to me, but,
as someone else pointed out, they could have been something
other than humanoid, programming the probe to adapt to what-
ever "mind" it encountered. But that would suggest an even
higher level of sophistication.
So, I ignore the anomalies and inconsistencies and accept the
episode for its dramatic merit. It was an excellent story.
Speaking of inconsistencies, I often think that the Klingons
couldn't possibly be as advanced in physics as they are and
remain such a brutal society. Then there's the Q. Could an
entity so advanced be so petulant? Perhaps. But it isn't
something I would expect.
Either the writers are taking a good bit of license or I'm
a good bit naive in my expectations about the development
of sentient species. I suspect a good bit of both. <g>
best,
...terry
scsd...@altair.selu.edu
[...stuff deleted]
>
> Why are you equating missile technology with their overall tech. level?
>
> Just because *we* just happened to let our military technology outgrow
> our other technologies, doesn't mean that other civilizations have to
> follow the same pattern. It would seem to me that they applied a lot
> of their "energy" towards medical related technologies. The probe was
> not that sophisticated in the propulsion area, but what about the
> "memories" that it was implanting into Picard?
>
There is a fundamental error in your thinking. Biology, physics,
chemistry, etc. are not isolated disciplines. We look at the probe
and deduce a remarkable level of advancement in the biological
sciences, which implies a more advanced level of development in
the physical sciences than was demonstrated by their primitive
propulsion systems.
> I do believe that this was talked about in **great** detail the first
> time that The Inner Light (TIL) was shown, so if someone still has the
> "final" conclusions somewhere, please repost... (Not this thread
> again....)
>
> Sigh,
>
> --
> Eli Boaz | Line noise provide by S.W. Bell Telephone!
Perhaps I misunderstand your intent here. If so, my apologies.
But if you are proceeding under the misguided notion that these
fora (newsgroups) are the sole province of you "long-time"
members, then you are in for a rude awakening. They will
invariably attract new people (like myself) who are unaware
of discussions YOU have previously engaged in.
I know it's tedious to see discussions recur that have long
since taken place, but it's unreasonable to expect new forum
members to refrain from discussing matters that you have
already put to rest.
It IS reasonable to expect new readers to acquaint themselves
with the various FAQs that have been posted. They contain a
lot of excellent information and can reduce the number of
posts requesting basic information about characters, episodes,
and so forth.
If "us newbies" cover what seems to you to be "old ground"
maybe you can be a little patient with us. <g>
best,
...terry
Dennis Heffernan
|You assume that all planets develop technology at the same rate and in the
|same way as Earth? Perhaps they never needed misiles before now. Perhaps
|they forgot how to build missiles? I dunno. But to assume that
|all alien cultures/technology will develop like ours is silly. Where would
|we be, space technology wise, without the cold war and the
|space race of the 1960s? Medical research would have gone on regardless.
This is a lame excuse. Yes, it's technically true, and it could have
been the reason, but it WASN'T.
We weren't shown anything to make us believe that the Katar (or
whoever) had any kind of technology approaching the Federation's level. If
the writers expected us to believe that they had the capability to do what
they did to Picard, they should have shown us how. They didn't, and we as
viewers are not obligated to play "connect the dots" with their plot.
dfra...@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Using C will definitely cut your life expectancy by 10 years or more."
--Carl Sassenrath, GURU'S GUIDE TO THE COMMODORE AMIGA #1
scsd...@altair.selu.edu
...material deleted...
>
> Besides, most missile development has occurred due to military and security
> needs. These people, in contrast, seemed to be very peacefully and communally
> inclined (which may also explain their willingness to let memories be their
> legacy). Don't be mislead by assuming that another world's (or even
> an individual's) work, values, and aspirations would be similar to what
> another would perceive as important.
>
> Lynne Jolitz.
You are, of course, correct in pointing out that different societies
will quite likely have different priorities. And, as was pointed out,
the technological processes do not develop in parallel. But I disagree
with your assessment of the "Inner Light" episode.
First, military and security goals are not the only motivations for
developing missiles and propulsion systems. They were obviously aware
that a universe existed beyond the confines of their planet. I would
be surprised if a people as scientifically advanced as the Katanans
(sp) had no curiosity about what lay beyond their home system and,
hence, no inclination to "venture forth." However, I do accept your
suggestion that that may not have been high on their list of priori-
ties.
But then, there's communication. Surely they would have had more
than a little interest in developing technology that would enable
them to launch weather and communications satelites as well as
scientific probes to other planets and bodies in their system.
Second, the physical sciences are more closely intertwined than the
episode indicates. Achieving that level of advancement in the biological
sciences implies a higher level of advancement in the other sciences
than was indicated by the rocket that was launched. You're not going
to get very far in your study of biology if your knowledge of physics
and chemistry remain on a primitive level. (Relative to our discussion,
"primitive" here equates to 20th century earth.)
Note that I am NOT failing to make a distinction between science and
technology. Even if their priorities were such that they had never
been motivated to develop the technology to launch probes beyond their
system, when they were finally motivated to do so by the impending
doom of their planet, I would expect that their initial efforts would
have been quite a bit more advanced than, say, earth's 1970's
propulsion technology.
Third, they had enough understanding of physical processes to
penetrate the Enterprise's shield system. They couldn't have known
in advanced what kind of resistance their probe would run into, so
they had to be able to program the probe to circumvent whatever it
might encounter. This doesn't mean that they were guaranteed of
success (what would have happened if the probe had encountered, say,
the Borg?) But they were successful in circumventing the Enterprise's
shield mechanism. And _that_, as the original message implied,
indicated a level of advancement beyond what was demonstrated by
the primitive launch technology.
Oh, well. That's my opinion. At any rate, I found "Inner Light" to
be one of my favorite episodes.
best,
...terry
scsd...@altair.selu.edu
...material deleted...
>
> Notwithstanding the plausibility of the technology, I put forth my own
> opinion here. A key phrase in the TV guide plot description read something
> like "Picard finds himself living another man's life". I agree with this
> and go one step further. The character of the man was quite apparently
> the incarnation of Picard. All character's, including Picard, were also
> quite apparently, playing off of each other. The beam then to me, appeared
> to be engaging Picard's mind with a mental version of what on a computer
> would be an adventure program where all character's have more or less
> predictable behaviour with some degree of permitted randomness.
>
...material deleted...
It might be interesting to speculate. How would things have been
different if the beam had hit Worf instead of Picard? What would
a Klingon Kamens have been like? (Of course, I'm ignoring the
possibility that the probe may have been selective.)
best,
...terry
Timothy W. Lynch
[on Eline and her final speech to Picard/Kamin]
>I think what she said was "Teach them of us," meaning, teach your
>people (the people of the future) of Kataan and its people. It was
>strictly a one-way transmission.
Agreed on the intent, but her actual line was "Tell them of us...my darling."
I don't think that one word changes much, but one never knows.
Tim Lynch
Philip W. Hurley
>>> And we sure better see the effects on Picard of living an entire life
>>>with a wife and children in another culture.
>>
> Actually, Picard has been affected, rather profoundly....
> After his recovery, on
>the Big E, when he was given the flute by Riker he was obviously moved,
>and the first thing he played was the Katanian song he played earlier.
>A very moving closing scene, IMO.
I agree. I, too, only saw the episode on rerun. RE: technology--remember, all
the probe had to be able to do was link to Picard. Obviously, the E could
overcome the probe's beam but at the expense of killing Picard.
I enjoyed the episode for showing a side of Picard we have *never* seen. "I
always thought that my life was complete, that I had no need of children.
Now I don't know how I could live without them." Picard SAID THAT!! (or
something close)
The problem that I have with the episode is that the whole purpose of the
probe was to share Katanian culture and as far as we can know, Picard has
not shared anything with the rest of the crew. IMO, a better ending would
have been Picard playing the flute for the crew and relating the "dream" to
them.
Kate E. Loomis
It was fairly obvious, at least to me, that the beam was actually
engaging Picard's mind in such a way that he was LIVING the entire
experience. After watching the second time (I missed a lot the first
go around) I caught Dr. Krusher saying at the beginning that Picard's
"neural transmitters" were undergoing intense activity. This would
correspond to highly accelerated thinking and experiences. She also
said something about some sort of neural nets forming at an accelerated
rate - which, to me, would imply the creation of MEMORY at an advanced
rate. Thus, it was clearly _not_ a simple dream.
This was on of the few episodes I've seen that I liked more the
second time I watched it.
kate
FRED W. BACH
Definitely one of the best ST-TNG episodes ever! Nicely written -- just
confusing/mysterious enough to keep the viewer guessing a little. Was
Picard actually having a dream/vision or was he actually in 2 places and
in two times at once <is this even possible>? We weren't sure for a while.
I would agree that the ending was a little too abrupt, and we haven't
seen any information transfer to the crew yet.
Question: could Dr. Crusher use any of her medical equipment to extract
any of this from Picard's mind??? Is there a precedent?
Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: mu...@erich.triumf.ca
TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 278/419
4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074
University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3
These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.
They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.
Deborah Nunn
>In article <MGATES.92S...@entiat.boeing.com>, mga...@entiat.boeing.com (Michael Gates) writes:
>
>> And we sure better see the effects on Picard of living an entire life
>> with a wife and children in another culture. But we won't. That is one of the
>> big problems with Star Trek, there are rarely any lasting effects on the
>> characters.
>
>If the encounter with the Borg made enough of an impact on Jean-Luc that he
>had to go back to Earth and "take stock" of his life, I can understand why
>suddenly finding one's self back on the Big E, after living an entire life
>on an alien planet, could have a similar effect.
You know, as I was watching TAI (I can't watch TAII until Saturday
grumble, grumble), there was a point where Data was saying to Picard
that he would have to go down to the planet. Did anyone else notice how
*long* Picard looked at Data before his said "make it so"? There was
such an expression on Picard's face -- I can't describe it.
I think that we are already seeing the effects of TIL. Picard was very
obviously reluctant to let Data go down to the surface of the planet.
He was acting "irrationally" by keeping Data on board the enterprise (as
Data pointed out, his death could happen hundreds of years from that
time). IMHO, Picard has already changed. He very obviously showed his
attachment to Data in TAI, much more so than I think he would have
before TIL. It seems to me that Picard is looking around at his current
"family" and, having lost one family already, is beginning to realize
how much his family means to him..
**************************************************************************
___/\ /\ One to beam up, Scottie!
__/ * \ / / (My dogs made me say it! Really!)
| |_______/ /
///// \ Deborah J. Nunn | Snail mail:
| | e-mail: nu...@sura.net | SURAnet
| ______ | phone: (301) 982-4600 | 8400 Baltimore Blvd.
|___/ \___| fax: (301) 982-4605 | College Pk, MD 20740
TJ Wood
> This episode had gargantuan holes in it.
I say this after every Star Trek epsiode. ;-)
> And we sure better see the effects on Picard of living an entire life
> with a wife and children in another culture. But we won't. That is one of the
> big problems with Star Trek, there are rarely any lasting effects on the
> characters.
I would certainly like to see this used a vehicle to modify Picard's character.
If the encounter with the Borg made enough of an impact on Jean-Luc that he
had to go back to Earth and "take stock" of his life, I can understand why
suddenly finding one's self back on the Big E, after living an entire life
on an alien planet, could have a similar effect.
They could easily use this episode to "marry off" Picard and Beverly Crusher,
if Patrick Stewart doesn't want to return for another season. Imagine a
half brother or sister for Wesley. Beverly's not that old. It's plausable!
Terry
--
INTERNET: tj...@pitt.edu BITNET: TJW@PITTVMS
"Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!" - Lord "John" Warfin
"There can be only one!" - The Highlander
"There should have been only one. I want my money back!" - Terry
TJ Wood
> I think that we are already seeing the effects of TIL. Picard was very
> obviously reluctant to let Data go down to the surface of the planet.
> He was acting "irrationally" by keeping Data on board the enterprise (as
> Data pointed out, his death could happen hundreds of years from that
> time). IMHO, Picard has already changed. He very obviously showed his
> attachment to Data in TAI, much more so than I think he would have
> before TIL. It seems to me that Picard is looking around at his current
> "family" and, having lost one family already, is beginning to realize
> how much his family means to him..
Let's say YOU owned the ONLY pocket calculator in the whole, wide world and
somebody called you up and wanted to use it for a door stop at a steam roller
convention. Wouldn't YOU think twice?
Picard didn't want to let Data be a Captain of one of the ships in his fleet!
Why? "Because I thought you'd have duties to attend to on the Enterprise" says
Jean-Luc. Ha! Data is so *valuable* to him as an all-purpose calulator that
he's reluctant to let him go! Jean Luc suckered that poor android into
signing up for his ship and he's NOT ABOUT to let him go!
"Gee, Data, 23 years isn't quite enough to be Captain of a ship, so sorry!".
It was only when Data forced Picard's hand that Jean Luc finally said,
"Well, I see that there *is* ONE ship that you could command. It has faulty
wiring and spews radiation that will kill the crew if you have to defend
yourself. Also, it comes with a first officer that's a bigot! Sure Data,
you wanna be a Captain, I can help you out! She's yours: The USS TITANIC!"
No sir! Poor Data is nearly a SLAVE to Jean Luc! He forces poor Data to
work the Midnight shift in center seat AS WELL AS being the lowly navigator
on the day shift! He *knows* that Data doesn't need any sleep and so he
FORCES him to work double duty. Sheesh! Data has been in Star Fleet for
what, 23 years?, AND HE STILL has to play second banana to that sleazy
commander Riker?!? What blatant android discrimination! I understand that
he makes Data get him coffee as well as do shopping for him on Mr. Data's
lunch hour, because he KNOWS THAT DATA DOESN'T HAVE TO EAT LUNCH!!!
And Jean Luc is always testing how accurate Mr. Data is with those "how
long to starbase 27 at warp 8?" questions. Yea, when he gets Data alone
in the turbo shaft, he makes him give him odds on the Steelers/Browns game.
I understand that Data can beat the point spread every time!
No, you may *think* that Jean Luc likes Mr. Data. That's just not true.
He exploits him at every turn! Anytime there's a dangerous explosive
substance to be shuttled over to the Enterprise, who does Picard send?
Why Mr. Data of course! Let me tell you, Captain Kirk wouldn't *ever* send
somebody like Mr. Data into a situation like that! He'd get somebody with
a RED shirt to do it!
"Naaa, go on Mr Data, go on down to that planet so Geordi can use your head
as a phase discriminator. We *still* have a used head up here!" Jean Luc
wispered under his breath!
Some friend indeed!
Terry ":-P for the humor impaired" Wood
Loren King
m...@ms9.mis.semi.harris.com (Mark W. Poole) writes:
|> I just saw "Inner Light" for the first time this weekend, and
|> really got lost at the end. I didn't understand how Pickard's
|> wife and friend could all of a sudden show up at the end, just
|> as the missile was being launched....and what happened to
|> Pickard's character on the planet after he returned to
|> consiousness on the Enterprise? It really threw me.
|>
|> Can someone please explain this to me or direct me to a
|> ftp site with "episode explanations".
|>
|> Thanks,
|>
|> Mark.
My advice: sit down and watch it more carefully.
L. King
Kurt A. Seiffert
cs20...@umbc8.umbc.edu writes:
>I think the crew, including Picard, do like Data, but don't give him the
breaks
>he deserves because he appears on the face of it to have no ambitions. I
think
>he's even stated as much directly on occasion. I don't believe it for a
minute.
>Why would Data have wanted to be Captain of that one ship during that
crisis
>if he had no ambition? He may not be the kind of guy that busts into the
>bosses office to get a raise once a year, but that doesn't mean he isn't
>due for one!
I have to think that Data really doesn't want a promotion. Data is a
character that
seems to like experiences above all else. I think that commanding the
ship during
the Romulan encounter was an opportunity that he saw to do several things:
1) Experience command of an entire ship in a potential combat situation
2) Allow another very needed ship to join the screen
3) He could take the command, but still be able to go back to his
position afterwards.
Think about it. Captains don't get to go down on away teams. They don't
get to sit
for hours in front of sensor panels analyzing some "disturbance." They
don't get to
engineer some new gadget to get out of pickle. They don't get to sit down
and analyze
some new life form. In short, they don't do any of the things for which
Data is best
suited. And while a humanoid might get wore out doing everything Data
does, Data
"does not require sleep." :-)
I think Data is exactly as high in rank as he wishes to be at the moment.
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--
Kurt A. Seiffert internet: seif...@ucs.indiana.edu
University Computing Services bitnet: seiffert@iubacs
Public Facilities, LAN Specialist office ph: (812) 855-5746
Indiana University "To or not to be..." -- Chang
Bloomington, IN
DISCLAIMER: I don't speak for IU and IU doesn't speak for me. We both like
it that way. ;-)
Steven Glinberg
I think you're crazy!
cs202144
did have a point when he said Data should have been much higher rank than he
is. If Data had been a Human that had accomplished as much and was as capable
as much he'd have been an Admiral LONG ago. Dumb Geordi gets a promotion a
year for his first three years on the Enterprise and Data works his ass off and
even in the show's 6th Season he is till a Lt. Commander. He is long over due
for his Commander promotion.
Jeff Preston
All I can tell you is that a friend's daughter, who is less than 2 years
of age (and already a severe Trekhead) sees Patrick Stewart on TV at *any*
time and says "Kamen, Kamen!" What better critic could one have?
Jeff
--
| Jeff Preston - owner and moderator of | "We don't get many requests |
| the Allan Holdsworth discussion list | for recent history." -- Mr. |
| *** To subscribe, send e-mail to: *** | Atoz, from the '69 Star Trek |
| <atava...@morekypr.morehead-st.edu> | episode _All Our Yesterdays_ |
Mel Walker
seif...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>Think about it. Captains don't get to go down on away teams. They don't
>get to sit
>for hours in front of sensor panels analyzing some "disturbance." They
>don't get to
>engineer some new gadget to get out of pickle. They don't get to sit down
>and analyze
>some new life form. In short, they don't do any of the things for which
>Data is best
>suited. And while a humanoid might get wore out doing everything Data
>does, Data
>"does not require sleep." :-)
>
>I think Data is exactly as high in rank as he wishes to be at the moment.
I would think that a Captain of a science vessel would get to do these
kind of things. However, I agree with your conclusions. I mean, after
Data (hypothetically) reaches Admiral at age 25, then what? He might live
for thousands of years! And there is no age reasons for him to retire.
Maybe he just wants to experience Lt. Commander-hood for a little while
longer.
This makes him fit right in on the Enterprise, with Will "Just Say No to
Captaincy" Riker and Wesley "I'll go to the Academy when I'm good and
ready and then pull stupid stunts that will keep me there forever"
Crusher.
--Mel Walker
TJ Wood
> Well I have to admit that you are right in a way.
Of course I'm right! I'm ALWAYS RIGHT! ;-) Actually, please disregard my
previous posting. My accounting was broken into by Lore! ;-)
You make an excellent point. When are they going to promote Data? They guy's
a regular work-a-holic! He's not gotten laid since the second episode and
then Tasha blew him off when she sobered up! Sheesh! It would have been much
more convincing if Tasha would have said "Oh, Data, could you stop by my
quarters after oh-six-hundred-hours" rather than "I'm only going to say this
once! IT NEVER HAPPENED!". Double Sheesh!
Promote Data or at least let him get laid. Why does RIKER get all the women?
Even POD-INSEMINATORS fer pity sakes!
TJ Wood
> I think you're crazy!
You're probably right!
Max Sterling
> Promote Data or at least let him get laid. Why does RIKER get all the women?
> Even POD-INSEMINATORS fer pity sakes!
:-) Well, in a spoilers listing before the summer, I remember seeing a
message about Paramount looking for good scripts to bring back Q,
Lwaxana, and Sela. Perhaps we could have a romantic interest between him
and Lwaxana? I'm sure she must have forgiven him for his "anecdotes" by
now, and she seemed quite impressed with his strength, despite the fact
that he looks like a wimp. Maybe Lwaxana could tutor him in the ways of
love? Or perhaps they could work something out with Sela! After all,
Data has sex with Tasha, so why not with her daughter? Mata ne.
-=]> Max <[=-
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Kup- "This reminds me of the time when my +-> Kup- "You ever SEEN a Regulan|
| my platoon was stranded on Regulan IV;| Metal Monger, lad?" |
| there we were, only SEVEN HUNDRED of | Hot Rod- "Uh, no,..." |
| US, against THREE WHOLE REGULAN METAL | Kup- "TRUST me! We were |
| Mongers!" | outnumbered! |
|Hot Rod- "Seven HUNDRED of YOU? Against +--------------------------------+
| THREE of THEM? Aw, come on, Kup!"-+ alum...@camins.camosun.bc.ca |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
TJ Wood
> Or perhaps they could work something out with Sela! After all,
> Data has sex with Tasha, so why not with her daughter? Mata ne.
I dunno. Data has been involved with Tasha & her sister. If I were him,
I'd quit while I was "a head". ;-)
Terry
Sylvain Chamberland
>
>Let's say YOU owned the ONLY pocket calculator in the whole, wide world and
>somebody called you up and wanted to use it for a door stop at a steam roller
>convention. Wouldn't YOU think twice?
>
>Picard didn't want to let Data be a Captain of one of the ships in his fleet!
>Why? "Because I thought you'd have duties to attend to on the Enterprise" says
>Jean-Luc. Ha! Data is so *valuable* to him as an all-purpose calulator that
>he's reluctant to let him go! Jean Luc suckered that poor android into
>signing up for his ship and he's NOT ABOUT to let him go!
>
>"Gee, Data, 23 years isn't quite enough to be Captain of a ship, so sorry!".
>It was only when Data forced Picard's hand that Jean Luc finally said,
>"Well, I see that there *is* ONE ship that you could command. It has faulty
>wiring and spews radiation that will kill the crew if you have to defend
>yourself. Also, it comes with a first officer that's a bigot! Sure Data,
>you wanna be a Captain, I can help you out! She's yours: The USS TITANIC!"
Data said himself to the boy in episode 111 (I don't remember the title.
It's the one where a boy was rescued from a ship and was the only
survivor, and decided to "become" an android. I can't believe I don't
remember the title, I taped it yesterday! [rerun])
"My service record does warrant such a position yet" when asked why he is
not captain.
So your use of this point in your argumentation that Data is a slave is
unwarranted... :)
But it's suspicious to me as well, Riker was offered command before spending
23 years in Starfleet, and Data is supposed to have an excellent record.
I think this is a little inconsistency in this series...
BTW, everybody note, please, that the captain's name is Jean-Luc.
^
Note the hyphen. "Luc" is NOT a middle name, it's part of his name...
French never have middle initials...
>Terry ":-P for the humor impaired" Wood
Sylvain "NMI" Chamberland
--
--
Sylvain Chamberland INTERNET: scha...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca
Dept. of Biology -----------------------------------------------------
University of Waterloo | "Biochimiste un jour, biochimiste toujours!"
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada | - anonyme
Patrick Chester
>Well I have to admit that you are right in a way. Also as evil as Lore is he
>did have a point when he said Data should have been much higher rank than he
>is. If Data had been a Human that had accomplished as much and was as capable
>as much he'd have been an Admiral LONG ago. Dumb Geordi gets a promotion a
brain? If that human were a repatriated Borg maybe. Hey Hue! We have an offer
for ya! :)
>year for his first three years on the Enterprise and Data works his ass off and
>even in the show's 6th Season he is till a Lt. Commander. He is long over due
>for his Commander promotion.
ship IMHO. Maybe even have Wesely <choke> graduate and get assigned to the
Enterprise. Not TOO far-fetched since the Big E is where a lot of Starfleet's
best end up usually, or are supposed to, anyway. Wesely's Engineering skills
might make him a candidate for assignment to the Big E; it might make Geordi
and the rest of Engineering very jealous though..
>
>I think the crew, including Picard, do like Data, but don't give him the breaks
>he deserves because he appears on the face of it to have no ambitions. I think
>he's even stated as much directly on occasion. I don't believe it for a minute.
>Why would Data have wanted to be Captain of that one ship during that crisis
starship. I don't know if that qualifies as ambition since he didn't seem to
have a driving *desire* to command. Though I did get a kick of him imitating
Picard's command style.
>if he had no ambition? He may not be the kind of guy that busts into the
>bosses office to get a raise once a year, but that doesn't mean he isn't
>due for one!
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Chester |"The earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep
wol...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | all your eggs." Robert A. Heinlein
Politically Incorrect |"The meek shall inherit the earth. The rest of us
Future Lunar Colonist | are going to the stars." Anonymous
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Smith
Hey, Look at Riker. Same thing. The reason why they haven't been promoted is simple: where will they put them?
--Chris
Linda Absher
Here's my chance! I missed the episodes that dealt with Data sleeping
with Tasha. Could someone give me the episode title(s) AND a sysnopsis
of what EXACTLY happened? I keep missing it in reruns.....
--
$ Linda Absher $ "Jane! Get me off of this $
$ lin...@info.Berkeley.EDU $ crazy thing!!!" $
$ $ -George Jetson, "The Jetsons" $
Tapio Erola
Linda Absher (lin...@info.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
If i am not mistaken, the episode was Naked Now.
The plot of the episode was mysterious contaminant running on enterprise
and eroding inhibitions on crew members. It also contains Bew Crusher
trying to have affair with Picard.......
Tapio Erola
z_cl...@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
They were drunk at the time. Or rather influenced by an alcoholic water
molecule.
The Judge
What's this about Data and Tasha's _sister_? What episode was
that on? I must not be a very good Trekkie as I don't even recall
Tasha having a sister, much less Data being involved with her.
Sorry for my (perhaps) ignorance...
(e-mail if preferred)
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