Vulcans of color...

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MrFossil

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Jan 9, 1995, 11:40:33 PM1/9/95
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Folks and fellow trekkers, devout and agnostic alike, I address thee!

My point about Tuvok isn't a question of race, etc, though many of you
will make of it what you will.

Roddie had a notion, a sort of vision of a fantastic world/universe beyond
what we can imagine given today's trials and conflicts and accomplishments
as a society.

In TOS, Paramount only "allowed" some of the original Roddie-vision to
show through. Look, the production sucks! Make no mistake about it. But
the show wasn't about technology or the future. It was intended to be
about how people can get along given circumstances.

Roddie wanted TOS to feature an ensemble cast. What he got instead was
what the network thought would sell - a space cowboy in Shatner's
characterization of Kirk. The minor characters were always much closer to
what Roddie wanted - ethnic diversity in the celestial sense, hence the
Vulcans, etc.

In the episode "Day of the Dove" (I think that's right :}) Kirk and
Commander Kang, the Klingon were about to battle over the "security and
sovereignity" of the Archons. The Archons proved to be more than they
appeared, foretelling of a time when the two "races" who are "more alike
than different", would make peace and become friends.

During TNG, some of that vision became reality. Moreover, Picard more
accurately represented the type of cerebral Capt. that fit Roddie image
(Data, by the way, fit into a mold created by Roddie between the TOS days
and TNG with the production of "The Questor Tapes", where Robt. Foxworth
played Roddie "first" synthetic human.) The TNG series delivered more of
the "ensemble" cast concept that Roddie had planned.

IMHO, Berman and Co. have slowly been caving to the special interests and
influences of the money-driven machine that allows the "new Trek-Tech"
bunch to continue the franchise.

My point about Tuvok being a "Vulcan of color" is that it smacks of a
patronizing mentality, in order to win the hearts of more viewers, more
advertising dollars, etc. It's that sickening corporate EEO mentality.
Don't hire the guy who fits the role, hire the black guy and satisfy
diversity requirements.

Whether there are Afro-Vulcans or black-Vulcans or whatever isn't the
point at all. The point is, Berman and company have slowly been selling
out the Roddie-vision in favor of one that is more PC and therefore sells
better to the masses.

The Star Trek universe is now like a beetle who has been knocked over onto
it's back. It will squirm a while as it's soft underbelly is exposed.

Star Trek, in Roddie's day was Never about being PC; it was about honesty,
peace, the welfare of all sentient beings, and accepting diversity as a
natural form of existence.

Here's the big question - is it a fair trade-off to exchange the great
big-bucks production capability for the real message in the Star Trek
vision. I ask that question because that is what is really going on here.

In TOS, the costumes and scenery stunk. I watched because the message was
true and forthright. It wouldn't have mattered if they spoke in King
James version and wore tights, breeches and jerkins.

To be, or not be. That is the question! (Hamlet/Shakespeare/Roddenberry)

Alara Rogers

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Jan 10, 1995, 12:58:50 AM1/10/95
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But I don't think Tim Russ was hired because he was black. I think he was
hired because they thought he was right for the part. Remember, as originally
scripted, Tuvok was supposed to be 150 or so-- in his 50's or 60's for a
Vulcan. The fact that they hired Russ and not an old guy indicates to me
that they really *liked* him, not that they were hiring him to fill a
quota-- if they were, they'd have hired a middle-aged actor like they
originally planned.

Kate Orman

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Jan 10, 1995, 4:55:33 PM1/10/95
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In article <3et341$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mrfo...@aol.com (MrFossil) writes:

[snip]

>My point about Tuvok isn't a question of race, etc, though many of you
>will make of it what you will.

Of course it's a bleeding question of race! Lookit:

[big snip]

>IMHO, Berman and Co. have slowly been caving to the special interests and
>influences of the money-driven machine that allows the "new Trek-Tech"
>bunch to continue the franchise.

... and they're not continuing Roddenberry's dream of an "ensemble"
future, then?

>My point about Tuvok being a "Vulcan of color" is that it smacks of a
>patronizing mentality, in order to win the hearts of more viewers, more
>advertising dollars, etc. It's that sickening corporate EEO mentality.
>Don't hire the guy who fits the role, hire the black guy and satisfy
>diversity requirements.

Maybe you should wait and see what you think of Tim Russ' performance
before you decide *why* he was hired, and whether he "fits the role".

Isn't it even *more* patronising to assume he was hired *only* because of
his colour?

>Whether there are Afro-Vulcans or black-Vulcans or whatever isn't the
>point at all. The point is, Berman and company have slowly been selling
>out the Roddie-vision in favor of one that is more PC and therefore sells
>better to the masses.

I've just watched the 25th Anniversary Special, in which Roddenberry,
Nichelle Nichols, Whoopie Goldberg and hell, even Martin Luther King
mention how proud they were of *Uhura* and how important it was that she was
aboard the Enterprise.

If you're going to call Trek "PC", you'd better remember that it's always
been "PC". Hey, they even threw in a Russian when the Russians complained
they were being left out!

[snip]

>Star Trek, in Roddie's day was Never about being PC; it was about honesty,
>peace, the welfare of all sentient beings, and accepting diversity as a
>natural form of existence.

I watched "A Matter of Time" t'other day. Do you remember the scene where
Rasmussen starts patronising Geordi: "Homer was black, you know." It was
like fingers down a blackboard, and it's our first real inclination that
Rasmussen is from the *past*, not the future.

If you can't deal with a black Vulcan, don't *you* have problems with
"accepting diversity as a natural form of existence"?

>Here's the big question - is it a fair trade-off to exchange the great
>big-bucks production capability for the real message in the Star Trek
>vision. I ask that question because that is what is really going on here.

Perhaps you'd better blip back in time and ask 'em not to put that black
Vulcan in STV then! :-)

--
Kate Orman
"You are endlessly agitating, unceasingly mischievous. Will you never
stop?" - Light, in Marc Platt's "Ghost Light", 1989

just another theatre geek

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Jan 10, 1995, 4:19:47 PM1/10/95
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In article <3et341$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,

MrFossil <mrfo...@aol.com> wrote:
>My point about Tuvok being a "Vulcan of color" is that it smacks of a
>patronizing mentality, in order to win the hearts of more viewers, more
>advertising dollars, etc. It's that sickening corporate EEO mentality.

What's patronizing is your automatic assumption that Tim Russ was
NOT the best choice for the role.

Bigotry hiding under the guise of "anti-PC" ism is still bigotry.

>Star Trek, in Roddie's day was Never about being PC;

Bullshit.

--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre

The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."

PERRY R EIDELBUS

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Jan 10, 1995, 4:55:18 PM1/10/95
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In article <3et341$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mrfo...@aol.com (MrFossil) writes:

> In the episode "Day of the Dove" (I think that's right :}) Kirk and
> Commander Kang, the Klingon were about to battle over the "security and
> sovereignity" of the Archons. The Archons proved to be more than they
> appeared, foretelling of a time when the two "races" who are "more alike
> than different", would make peace and become friends.

They were actually the Organians, the Light Bulbs of the Galaxy; read
John Ford's "How Much for Just the Planet?" for a hilarious
description of the Federation's and Klingons' views towards the
treaty. The Archons were in the "Return of the Archons," which was a
pretty crummy episode. "Day of the Dove," I think, is where an energy
being forces the Enterprise crew and the Klingons (I don't remember
offhand how they got on board) to fight, feeding on their anger and
hatred.


Perry-beast
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Winter must be cold for those with no warm memories."
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sher...@mowonder.com

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Jan 11, 1995, 12:53:56 AM1/11/95
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IE>In article <3et341$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mrfo...@aol.com (MrFossil)
IE>writes:

IE>> In the episode "Day of the Dove" (I think that's right :}) Kirk and
IE>> Commander Kang, the Klingon were about to battle over the "security and
IE>> sovereignity" of the Archons. The Archons proved to be more than they
IE>> appeared, foretelling of a time when the two "races" who are "more alike
IE>> than different", would make peace and become friends.

IE>They were actually the Organians, the Light Bulbs of the Galaxy; read
IE>John Ford's "How Much for Just the Planet?" for a hilarious
IE>description of the Federation's and Klingons' views towards the
IE>treaty. The Archons were in the "Return of the Archons," which was a
IE>pretty crummy episode. "Day of the Dove," I think, is where an energy
IE>being forces the Enterprise crew and the Klingons (I don't remember
IE>offhand how they got on board) to fight, feeding on their anger and
IE>hatred.


IE>Perry-beast
IE>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
IE>"Winter must be cold for those with no warm memories."
IE>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

===================================================

And for the record, the episode the first poster was probably attempting
to refer to was the TOS first season ep: "Errand of Mercy" (and the main
Klingon was called "Kor" -- played by John Colicos :)

(Hey, I endevour to be complete)

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(aka: Phillip Sral) (a fan dubbing group)

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sher...@mowonder.com

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Jan 11, 1995, 12:53:57 AM1/11/95
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IK>>Here's the big question - is it a fair trade-off to exchange the great
IK>>big-bucks production capability for the real message in the Star Trek
IK>>vision. I ask that question because that is what is really going on here.

You mean to say you don't nelieve Gene Roddenberry tried to market
merchandise; and milk TOS for all the money it was worth at the time?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA -- that's a good one!

Hell, both Shatner and Nimoy have said NUMEROUS times that during the
last Season of TOS, Gene added MEANINGLESS dialog, and required the
character involved to prominently display an item on screen, so that the
fans would go out and BUY the merchandise (which Gene was marketing in
retail stores at the time). The most famous example of this was Spock's
IDIC symbol that he wore in "Is There In Truth No Beauty"... Nimoy
REFUSED to do the scene where he was to display the pin because he KNEW
it had NOTHING to do with the story, and was just included so Gene could
sell the the things after the episode aired (the original dialog the
Spock character was supposed to read was VERY trite). To keep the
piece, Gene allowed Nimoy to re-write the dialog to his liking, as long
as he made sure to SHOW the pin, and the rest is history.

I like Star Trek, and believe Gene R. should be commended for raising SF
TV of the 60's to new heights; but I can't stand all these Newbie fans
who want to put the guy up on a pedistal; or believe that he did Star
Trek just because he had a "Vision"

Bottom line: He was (along with EVERYONE else) in it primarily for the
Money, and to make a living. He sure as hell wasn't the
altruistic Saint you and alot of other fans like to make
him out to be.

Come on guy, join us in the REAL world.

Michael McCormick

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Jan 10, 1995, 5:01:45 PM1/10/95
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So you're annoyed because you see the casting of a black as a vulcan as a PC
move.

Well...this is my suggestion:

If you don't like it when you perceive others being treated as "race"
(or anything else) instead of individual, ignore it.

Treat everyone you know and know about as individuals (their deeds as the
defining characteristic -- not their "incidental characteristics of birth"),
and let others who wish to communicate with YOU do likewise.

Tuvok IS only what Tuvok HAS DONE. Tuvok symbolizes as a character only what
Tuvok the character has done (and why he did it). Tim Russ the actor is only
what Tim Russ has done (and why he did it).

Racism (or any ism, good or bad) ends, I believe, when race (or whatever
applicable characteristic) ceases to be the (or a) defining
characteristic.

PC dies with this attitude, and mutual, earned respect flourishes.

So just ignore it --

And let's have fun! :)

Michael McCormick

Janis Maria C. C. Cortese

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Jan 11, 1995, 11:23:20 PM1/11/95
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In article <3f1doa$8...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> gol...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Golden Geophysical) writes:
>I find it interesting that, while so many people seem to be upset by the idea
>of a black Vulcan, I haven't seen even ONE post by someone surprised that
>Sorian (spelling? - anyway the villian from Generations) was WHITE. After
>all, he was an El-Aurian (spelling again? - need a Star Trek module for my
>spell checker!) and the only El-Aurian that we had seen up to that point
>was Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg) who is, in case you hadn't noticed, just a
>tad on the dark side. Why then, didn't we see hundreds of posts
>agonizing about the talented black actors who were passed over in favor
>of Roddy McDowell even though he obviously was wrong for the part (by
>virtue of being white)?

First off, it's Malcolm McDowell. Second, ZING! GORGEOUS post!

:-),
Janis the net.proud.hussy

Janis Cortese || President and Founder: SEFEB, and The ||
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Dean Hollister

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Jan 12, 1995, 7:29:48 AM1/12/95
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In article <corteseD...@netcom.com>,
Janis Maria C. C. Cortese (cor...@netcom.com) writes:

>Oh, come on Alara, stop making sense. We ALL KNOW that there's no way a
>black actor could be hired because he's qualified. There MUST have been
>some poor victimized white guy who was bumped for the part. Dem damn
>minorities never get nuthin they deserve.
>
>The little green men from Venus told me so from my shower head this
>morning.
>
>Regards,
>Janis the net.proud.hussy, unrepentent liberal loudmouth

...Who would just love to sleep with Dr. Bashir! :-)


Cheers,

Dean.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dean Hollister, | Internet: de...@mushka.DIALix.oz.au |
| Perth, Western Australia. | CompuServe: 74767,2553 |
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just another theatre geek

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Jan 12, 1995, 1:20:06 AM1/12/95
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In article <1995Jan11....@princeton.edu>,
Christopher Bradford Stone <cbs...@tucson.princeton.edu> wrote:
>In article <3eutlj$g...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>,

>just another theatre geek <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>>Star Trek, in Roddie's day was Never about being PC;
>> Bullshit.
>It's nice to see that acting school has transformed you into such an
>eloquent speaker, Roger.

Please. I'm a producer.

And "bullshit" is a producer's word.

Janis Maria C. C. Cortese

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Jan 12, 1995, 12:44:08 AM1/12/95
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In article <1995Jan11....@Princeton.EDU> cbs...@tucson.princeton.edu (Christopher Bradford Stone) writes:
>In article <3eutlj$g...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>,
>just another theatre geek <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>>>Star Trek, in Roddie's day was Never about being PC;
>>
>> Bullshit.
>
>It's nice to see that acting school has transformed you into such an
>eloquent speaker, Roger.

I prefer to think of it as concise.

Regards,

Joseph Brown

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Jan 12, 1995, 9:48:16 AM1/12/95
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In article <D2Aq2...@attchle.chile.ncr.com> mfa...@attchle.chile.ncr.com (Miguel Farah) writes:
>Kate Orman (kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au) wrote:
>: Perhaps you'd better blip back in time and ask 'em not to put that black

>: Vulcan in STV then! :-)
>
>You're forgetting that canon also has mistakes.... Spock himself is one.

All this talk about Black Vulcans being some violation of Roddenberry's
vision are pretty funny to me. I think we've never seen Black Vulcans
in the past for the same reason we don't see Blacks in most early sci-fi
films. The WHITE producers (even the progressive ones like Roddenberry)
never thought of it, partly because the times they operated in and a
limitation of vision that resulted.

Consider for example one of the more progressive moves of TOS.
Today, that controversial kiss by Uhura-Kirk looks not only tame but
kind of silly! Consider, Kirk (super schlong of the universe), is being
FORCED to kiss one of the most gorgeous women on his ship. Ooooh, no,
stop us, quick! What a TERRIBLE fate! Someone HELP us!

But for THAT time (1960s) it was a bold move. A Black Vulcan might have
been a bit too far, though. Now......it shouldn't be a big deal. That
it is...well, is troubling and depressing.

Joseph

Kenton L. Campbell

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Jan 12, 1995, 9:49:57 AM1/12/95
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In article <3f1doa$8...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>, gol...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Golden Geophysical) writes:
> I find it interesting that, while so many people seem to be upset by the idea
> of a black Vulcan, I haven't seen even ONE post by someone surprised that
> Sorian (spelling? - anyway the villian from Generations) was WHITE. After
> all, he was an El-Aurian (spelling again? - need a Star Trek module for my
> spell checker!) and the only El-Aurian that we had seen up to that point
> was Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg) who is, in case you hadn't noticed, just a
> tad on the dark side. Why then, didn't we see hundreds of posts
> agonizing about the talented black actors who were passed over in favor
> of Roddy McDowell even though he obviously was wrong for the part (by
> virtue of being white)?

Bravo! Having a white actor play an El-Aurian to me seemed rather silly.
Whoopi's lack of eyebrows gives her a distinctive humanoid alien look
(especially when you add the mortar-board/chef's-hat/flowing-robe motif),
and to virtually abandon that look in the El-Aurians in GENERATIONS
annoyed me to no end.

--
--
-- Kenton L. Campbell ---------------------- 01klca...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu --
-- Ball State University, Muncie IN ----------- 01klca...@BSUVAX1.BITNET --

KKKatie

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Jan 11, 1995, 8:54:46 PM1/11/95
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In article <3et341$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mrfo...@aol.com "MrFossil" writes:

> My point about Tuvok isn't a question of race, etc,

Of course it is, as I shall demonstrate

>though many of you will make of it what you will.

> Roddie had a notion, a sort of vision of a fantastic world/universe beyond
> what we can imagine given today's trials and conflicts and accomplishments
> as a society.

True
<snip>

> The minor characters were always much closer to
> what Roddie wanted - ethnic diversity in the celestial sense, hence the
> Vulcans, etc.

Seems to me a black Vulcan epitomises ethnic diversity in the celestial
sense

<snip>



> IMHO, Berman and Co. have slowly been caving to the special interests and
> influences of the money-driven machine that allows the "new Trek-Tech"
> bunch to continue the franchise.
>
> My point about Tuvok being a "Vulcan of color" is that it smacks of a
> patronizing mentality,

Any black people out there patronised by the Black Vulcan idea? Has the
poster ever met any?

> in order to win the hearts of more viewers, more
> advertising dollars, etc. It's that sickening corporate EEO mentality.
> Don't hire the guy who fits the role, hire the black guy and satisfy
> diversity requirements.

How the hell do you know that this actor doesn't fit the role - oops no
sorry of course he couldn't he's black.

What your comment is actually saying is "They didn't hire a guy who
fits the role (only evidence you have - he's black) therefore the only guys
who would fit the role are white."

Doesn't really matter why he was chosen the same parrot cry of "PC" would
have gone up.

No matter how you people turn and twist the sub-text to what you're saying
remains the same.

"This actor is black"
"The only reason why this actor has been chosen is because he is black"
his relative skill, suitability for the role are never discussed
"This is PC" - whatever that means
"This is bad"
"Were there no white actors who could have been given the role?"
and the sub-sub-text
"I don't want to see black characters"

> Whether there are Afro-Vulcans or black-Vulcans or whatever isn't the
> point at all.

Of course it is

> The point is, Berman and company have slowly been selling
> out the Roddie-vision in favor of one that is more PC and therefore sells
> better to the masses.

Point 1
The Roddie vision always had PC aspect to it - it was one of the things that
made it stand out from the mass of sixties dross - the fact that the TOS
crew were mixed-race was one of the startling and positive things about the
show.

Point2
I grant GR vision and imagination and but anyone who thinks that he wasn't
concerned about the commercial side of ST is either very stupid or very naive.
GR was in television to make programmes and to make money - almost
certainly in that order but both motives were there and no one should
pretend that they were not.

> The Star Trek universe is now like a beetle who has been knocked over onto
> it's back. It will squirm a while as it's soft underbelly is exposed.

If you think PC is the soft underbelly of ST you have obviously never
thought about the recent crap writing, the over-production, the triple
helping of ST in DS9, films and Voyager. Greed will do for ST long
before PC does.

> Star Trek, in Roddie's day was Never about being PC;

It was at least partly about believing in a future when people would
have grown out of the need to see each other as different just because of the
colour of their skin . GR was as capable of being PC as the next man - I've
seen interviews with him in which he positively stated that a multi-race
cast was a priority that he fought for.

Take an episode like "And the children shall lead" look at the way the
families all came from different ethnic groups - this wasn't done by accident
it was a deliberate policy.

> it was about honesty,
> peace, the welfare of all sentient beings, and accepting diversity as a
> natural form of existence.

So why protest a black vulcan - "diversity as a natural form of existence."

> Here's the big question - is it a fair trade-off to exchange the great
> big-bucks production capability for the real message in the Star Trek
> vision. I ask that question because that is what is really going on here.

This is a complete non-sequitur - at least one of the messages of ST is and
always was, "Diversity is a positive and life-enhancing thing". You can say
this cheap or you can say it expensive but ST has always said it and the
minute it stops is the time when I for one stop watching.

<Snip>

Sorry for the length of the post but it's been a long time since I've
seen a less cogently argued piece, I couldn't let it go by without a few
shots across its bows.


Kate
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine and not my employer's
Just a minute I'm self-employed, who the hell do these opinions
belong to ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jacobson

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Jan 12, 1995, 4:49:57 PM1/12/95
to
just another theatre geek (gwan...@u.washington.edu) cleared their throat and cried:
: Please. I'm a producer.

: And "bullshit" is a producer's word.

Well, you seem to be producing nothing but hateful bullshit in this group.

CJ

Ted Ambrose

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Jan 12, 1995, 6:01:18 PM1/12/95
to
Racism (or any ism, good or bad) ends, I believe, when race (or whatever
applicable characteristic) ceases to be the (or a) defining
characteristic.
PC dies with this attitude, and mutual, earned respect flourishes.
So just ignore it --
And let's have fun! :)
Michael McCormick

I agree wholeheartedly, Michelle! Gene's whole vision was of peaceful
co-existence of all races and species. If you call yourself a "Star Trek"
fan, then you should know this!! I'm not what one would call PC, but I didn't
see anything wrong with any of the casting in Voyager. In fact I am looking
forward to a female captain and seeing the first black Vulcan. Remember the
Vulcan IDIC concept? Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations? Think about
it and just enjoy Voyager!!

Ted!

Thom Simonson

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Jan 12, 1995, 12:31:16 AM1/12/95
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In article <3f1doa$8...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>,

gol...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Golden Geophysical) wrote:
> I find it interesting that, while so many people seem to be upset by the idea
> of a black Vulcan, I haven't seen even ONE post by someone surprised that
> Sorian (spelling? - anyway the villian from Generations) was WHITE. After
> all, he was an El-Aurian (spelling again? - need a Star Trek module for my
> spell checker!) and the only El-Aurian that we had seen up to that point
> was Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg) who is, in case you hadn't noticed, just a
> tad on the dark side. Why then, didn't we see hundreds of posts
> agonizing about the talented black actors who were passed over in favor
> of Roddy McDowell even though he obviously was wrong for the part (by
> virtue of being white)?
>
Probably because it was Malcom McDowell that played Sorian.
And I personally would consider it odd to see Vulcans of ANY other
color than "white". There have been a few aliens on TNG that have
had very strage skin color covering almost all the colors of the
rainbow. If there was a greenish blue Vulcan I would be a little put
off by it, even thought this might make some sense because they have
green blood.

Thom Simonson | "I'm a student of human nature, because I'm
| too stupid to be a student of anything else"
dar...@dorsai.org | -- Howard Stern
--
Thom Simonson | "I'm a student of human nature, because I'm too
E-Mail: | stupid to be a student of anything else."
dar...@dorsai.org | - Howard Stern

Todd Horowitz

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Jan 12, 1995, 7:02:15 PM1/12/95
to
In article <3f4865$s...@mystech.mystech.com>,

Well, well, well. What burrowed up your butt this morning?

Personally, I always thought that Roger was one of the few voices of
reason on this benighted net, but since you made such a bold statement,
I'm sure you have DOCUMENTED evidence to the contrary? Unless, of course,
"hateful bullshit" = "opinions that Jacobson doesn't agree with"?

-todd

Matt Thompson

unread,
Jan 12, 1995, 7:21:25 PM1/12/95
to
In article <3et341$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mrfo...@aol.com (MrFossil)
wrote:

>
> In the episode "Day of the Dove" (I think that's right :}) Kirk and
> Commander Kang, the Klingon were about to battle over the "security and
> sovereignity" of the Archons. The Archons proved to be more than they
> appeared, foretelling of a time when the two "races" who are "more alike
> than different", would make peace and become friends.

Bzzt...wrong episode title, wrong Klingon. The episode you are
describing is"Errand of Mercy". The Klingon Commander was "Kor" played by
John Colicos. And they weren't the "Archons" they were the "Organians".
"Day of the Dove" was a different story, although it did, as you say,
feature a Klingon named Kang, played by Michael Ansara. (This was the
episode in which a non-corporeal alien life form which lived off negative
human emotions, arranged for the Klingons and Federation crew to fight
with swords...)

BTW: What do you think of the fact that Klingons in TOS looked more
human...no skullcrests...

Matt "Know your Klingons" Thompson

--


This message reflects only the views of the poster and does not reflect the views of my employer, or it's shareholders, and this disclaimer is retroactive to all previous posted messages


Virginia Boehm

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Jan 12, 1995, 7:30:46 PM1/12/95
to
In <mist.102...@ins.infonet.net> mi...@ins.infonet.net (Michael
McCormick) writes:

I just don't see what the flap is about. Humans, and Klingons, come in
different skin colors. Why not Vulcans? What's the big deal?
Gini

Matt Thompson

unread,
Jan 12, 1995, 7:34:17 PM1/12/95
to
In article <3et341$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mrfo...@aol.com (MrFossil)
wrote:

>

> Whether there are Afro-Vulcans or black-Vulcans or whatever isn't the
> point at all. The point is, Berman and company have slowly been selling
> out the Roddie-vision in favor of one that is more PC and therefore sells
> better to the masses.

Is that why the Phasers now look like big Norleco shavers, not firearms? I
think the STNG Phasers are lame lame lame. "Kirk had a cool phaser, not
some pansy Braun Mix-Master" (from "100 reasons why Kirk is better than
Picard")

Matt Thompson

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Jan 12, 1995, 9:53:19 PM1/12/95
to
In article <corteseD...@netcom.com>, cor...@netcom.com (Janis Maria
C. C. Cortese) wrote:

> So in other words, you just don't want to see black people on Trek,

I don't think that he has said anything of that kind. Last time I
checked, Geordi LaForge, a major STNG character, was black. Uhura is
black. Guinan is black. Cmdr. Benjamin Sisko is black. We have seen
numerous StarFleet Admirals, both in ST and STNG and the movies who were
black. Saying someone is racist just because they think a black Vulcan is
a silly idea that conflicts with series consistency doesn't hold water. I
think it's a silly idea yet I have no objection to other black characters
of either ST, STNG, DS9, etc. Geordi is one of my favorite characters of
both ST and STNG combined. If Vulcans had been black from the beginning of
ST I'd think a white Vulcan would be a stupid idea. Get the point? Yet in
all the portrayals of Vulcan society, in both the series and movies, we
have never seen black Vulcans before, so I think it takes away from the
continuity of the series. (Unless of course, they explain it by saying he
is the son of a black Human and a Vulcan. That would at least make sense
from a series consistency point of view.)

Bill Capehart

unread,
Jan 12, 1995, 9:44:39 PM1/12/95
to
Matt Thompson <matt_t...@radius.com> wrote:
>Is that why the Phasers now look like big Norleco shavers, not firearms? I
>think the STNG Phasers are lame lame lame. "Kirk had a cool phaser, not
>some pansy Braun Mix-Master" (from "100 reasons why Kirk is better than
>Picard")

And the ones from the first season looked like Dustbusters, obviously
a Freudian reference to those who do not wish to anger thier mothers
my making a mess. I always prefered the Romulan and Klingon disrupters
as well as Babylon 5's (I don't wanna hear it) PPGs, none of which
seem to have stun settings (or at least lower settings that don't
leave you in ICU for a month). I was never fond quickly resolving
a nasty situation by stunning the offender(s) and then brushing off the
use of force (remember what Q said in the premiere -- Stunning some
creature DOES kill them). I'm not blaming casual TV violence on the
stun setting, it's the Trek equivalent of the sonic screwdriver --
an easy out when the writers could have done something more clever.
Remember, neck pinch was Nimoy's idea to get Spock out of hitting
the baddie of the week with a phaser butt.

As for the phasers, If you're gonna shoot someone, you should mean it.
Stun settings are for people who can't commit. Hmmm... I think I'll
be changing my scifi.sig ;-)

(And this from a guy who thinks that gun control is hitting the target.)
==========================================================================
Bill Capehart (w...@essc.psu.edu) "Stun settings are for cowards
Penn State Meteorology who don't take death seriously."
University Park, PA 16802
==================== /* John Galt, Call Your Office */ ===================

just another theatre geek

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 2:56:44 AM1/13/95
to
In article <matt_thompson-1...@mthompson.radius.com>,

Matt Thompson <matt_t...@radius.com> wrote:
>black. Saying someone is racist just because they think a black Vulcan is
>a silly idea that conflicts with series consistency doesn't hold water.

It certainly holds water. BECAUSE WE HAVE >>ALREADY<< SEEN
"BLACK" VULCANS IN THE SERIES.

>ST I'd think a white Vulcan would be a stupid idea. Get the point? Yet in
>all the portrayals of Vulcan society, in both the series and movies, we
>have never seen black Vulcans before,

Wrong.

> so I think it takes away from the
>continuity of the series.

It can't, because it's ALREADY in continuity.

Miguel Farah

unread,
Jan 12, 1995, 9:11:03 AM1/12/95
to
Kate Orman (kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au) wrote:
: Perhaps you'd better blip back in time and ask 'em not to put that black

: Vulcan in STV then! :-)

You're forgetting that canon also has mistakes.... Spock himself is one.

Miguel Farah

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 10:04:46 AM1/13/95
to
Golden Geophysical (gol...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM) wrote:
: I find it interesting that, while so many people seem to be upset by the idea
: of a black Vulcan, I haven't seen even ONE post by someone surprised that

Well, that is *another* mistake. I still think that the men in charge
of Star Trek in these days don't care about doing things right.

Jeremy Lysaght

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 12:16:00 AM1/13/95
to
It seems to me that this argument is one that is typically American. ie
every person has to be labelled. An actor cant just be an actor they have
to be a black actor or an asian actor. Its this attitude you guys have to
everything that doesnt allow things just to be. They have to be explained
away, analysed until all the fun is taken out of life and the point is
missed.

The real point is Vulcan, like any other planet has areas of of heat and
cold. Those Vulcans from the hot areas will have developed darker skin to
compensate for the hot sun. Its as simple as that. Now stop reading racial
rights or social upheaval into it. If the guy plays the part badly then bag
him, if he plays it well praise him, but at least lets wait and see eh!

How about just enjoying the new series before we pull it to bits.

JEZZA

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lifes big question : Why are most starfleet ships and officers related
in some way to the USA earth?

jmi...@uwyo.edu

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 1:26:24 PM1/13/95
to
In article <3f52ag$e...@styx.uwa.edu.au>, je...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Jeremy Lysaght) writes:
>It seems to me that this argument is one that is typically American. ie
>every person has to be labelled. An actor cant just be an actor they have
>to be a black actor or an asian actor. Its this attitude you guys have to
>everything that doesnt allow things just to be. They have to be explained
>away, analysed until all the fun is taken out of life and the point is
>missed.
>
>JEZZA
>
>

This is the first post in this thread that I've bothered to read, since
the subject line indicated to me it was a stupid discussion. I now have
only one question. Why do you, Jeeza, insist on labeling people with
phrases like "typically American?" Why can't people just be people?
Why do they have to be "typically......" whatever? I've been American
my whole life, and although I noticed the vulcan was black, it's
impossible not to, I never questioned why.

Later,
Jeff M.
jmi...@uwyo.edu

Mark Garrett

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 6:07:07 PM1/13/95
to
In article <3f52ag$e...@styx.uwa.edu.au>, je...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Jeremy
Lysaght) wrote:

> It seems to me that this argument is one that is typically American. ie
> every person has to be labelled. An actor cant just be an actor they have
> to be a black actor or an asian actor. Its this attitude you guys have to
> everything that doesnt allow things just to be. They have to be explained
> away, analysed until all the fun is taken out of life and the point is
> missed.


Aack.. last time I heard rasicm isn't just confined to North America.
Please, this is a discussion of the casting of an African-american actor
to the role of a Vulcan. Not a diatribe against the American way of
life. My opinion, I'd like to see if the topic was briught up on the
series. Maybe by some small kid who had never seen a dark Vulcan.

--Mark

--
"Yeah though I post in the groups of the servers of the Net, I will fear no flames."-Me

Mark Garrett
TEXAS

James L. Coffey

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 6:25:40 PM1/13/95
to
Miguel Farah (mfa...@chile.ncr.com) wrote:

: : Consider for example one of the more progressive moves of TOS.


: : Today, that controversial kiss by Uhura-Kirk looks not only tame but
: : kind of silly! Consider, Kirk (super schlong of the universe), is being
: : FORCED to kiss one of the most gorgeous women on his ship. Ooooh, no,
: : stop us, quick! What a TERRIBLE fate! Someone HELP us!

He never kissed her on TV. It's a an urban legend. A nice one, but
false none the less.

Miguel Farah

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 6:02:10 PM1/13/95
to
Joseph Brown (br...@psych.Stanford.EDU) wrote:

: In article <D2Aq2...@attchle.chile.ncr.com> mfa...@attchle.chile.ncr.com (Miguel Farah) writes:
: >Kate Orman (kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au) wrote:
: >: Perhaps you'd better blip back in time and ask 'em not to put that black
: >: Vulcan in STV then! :-)
: >
: >You're forgetting that canon also has mistakes.... Spock himself is one.

: All this talk about Black Vulcans being some violation of Roddenberry's
: vision are pretty funny to me. I think we've never seen Black Vulcans
: in the past for the same reason we don't see Blacks in most early sci-fi
: films. The WHITE producers (even the progressive ones like Roddenberry)
: never thought of it, partly because the times they operated in and a
: limitation of vision that resulted.

I *still* think it's a mistake anyway, since vulcans are GREEN. BTW,
Gene's first idea was to make vulcans red, but they had to change it
because black people wouldn't like it (red looked black in B/W TVs).

: Consider for example one of the more progressive moves of TOS.


: Today, that controversial kiss by Uhura-Kirk looks not only tame but
: kind of silly! Consider, Kirk (super schlong of the universe), is being
: FORCED to kiss one of the most gorgeous women on his ship. Ooooh, no,
: stop us, quick! What a TERRIBLE fate! Someone HELP us!

I'd have more than kissed her :-)

: But for THAT time (1960s) it was a bold move. A Black Vulcan might have


: been a bit too far, though. Now......it shouldn't be a big deal. That
: it is...well, is troubling and depressing.

Yes it has. It's not a simple "going too far" problem, but more of a
canon violation: you see, many people think (including me) that there
aren't any black vulcans because that's what the species is like - not
because black persons may be inferior (which *I* think is untrue and a
stupid idea). It's like saying "blonde japanese": there aren't any
blonde japanese persons, because it's the way it is. Period. Then again,
a blonde caucasian complaining against this would look ridiculess,
wouldn't he/she? :-)

Jaundice FoxGlov

unread,
Jan 16, 1995, 11:35:37 PM1/16/95
to
In article <D2D9B...@chile.ncr.com>, mfa...@chile.ncr.com (Miguel Farah)
wrote:


> : But for THAT time (1960s) it was a bold move. A Black Vulcan might have
> : been a bit too far, though. Now......it shouldn't be a big deal. That
> : it is...well, is troubling and depressing.
>
> Yes it has. It's not a simple "going too far" problem, but more of a
> canon violation: you see, many people think (including me) that there
> aren't any black vulcans because that's what the species is like - not
> because black persons may be inferior (which *I* think is untrue and a
> stupid idea). It's like saying "blonde japanese": there aren't any
> blonde japanese persons, because it's the way it is. Period. Then again,
> a blonde caucasian complaining against this would look ridiculess,
> wouldn't he/she? :-)

Excuse me? CANON?! What the hell is this, anyway: British Literature?
Who is to say that all Vulcans have to be pale-skinned? That would be like
saying that since all previous sci-fi stars that played humans were white,
that all humans thereafter had to be played by white people.

I think you need to take another long hard look at why Roddenberry created
Star Trek in the first place. Wasn't it something about giving people a
sense that petty differences would mean little in the future, that normal
people would treat each other as such, that diversity was seen as a
precious commodity that needed to be cherished?

Maybe we all could learn from that.

--
Jaundice FoxGlov "Yeah. Well, it's been fun, friend,
fox...@ksu.ksu.edu but we've got to get back to
Planet Reality now."
-Yakko Warner to Baloney

just another theatre geek

unread,
Jan 17, 1995, 12:17:22 PM1/17/95
to
In article <D2D9B...@chile.ncr.com>,

Miguel Farah <mfa...@chile.ncr.com> wrote:
>Yes it has. It's not a simple "going too far" problem, but more of a
>canon violation: you see, many people think (including me) that there
>aren't any black vulcans because that's what the species is like

Wrong. We've seen black Vulcans before.

- not
>because black persons may be inferior (which *I* think is untrue and a
>stupid idea). It's like saying "blonde japanese": there aren't any
>blonde japanese persons, because it's the way it is. Period.

Wrong again.

Care for a third strike?

Kim Headlee

unread,
Jan 17, 1995, 12:41:48 PM1/17/95
to
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.950117...@rac3.wam.umd.edu>,
MoonLighter 110 <po...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:

[stuff snipped that I have no intention of getting into the middle of ;-) ]
>
> So they go with Uhura as both the Black and female "rep". (Was Nicole
> chosen because of her former relationship with Gene? A whole different thread)

Yes. She said so herself at Creation Con in Crystal City, VA, 11/26/94.

[remainder snipped]
--
Kim D. Headlee (hea...@bdcv9.nrl.navy.mil)

Kate Orman

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Jan 17, 1995, 11:57:32 PM1/17/95
to
In article <3fhc99$n...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> Tad_W...@MBNet.MB.CA (Wigmore) writes:

[snip]

>Have people forgotten that Gene Roddenberrys original thought was for all
>Vulcans to have red skin? Race had never been a Vulcan issue before, and
>had the actor been white there would not have been the resultant fuss. I
>can't help but feel that the writers for this series have purposefully
>made him black in an overdeveloped spirit of Political Correctness, rather
>than just in the interest of a good story.

Naturally, if the character had been white, there wouldn't have been a
"fuss". The only people making a "fuss" are those who have a problem with
non-white characters - because people are "naturally" white, y'know?

What do you mean by "political correctness", anyway? Diversity's always
been part of Trek.

>Someone indicated that there had already been a black Vulcan; would someone
>please reply as to when and where? Thank you.

STV.


--
Kate Orman
"You are endlessly agitating, unceasingly mischievous. Will you never
stop?" - Light, in Marc Platt's "Ghost Light", 1989

MoonLighter 110

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 2:17:53 AM1/18/95
to

> In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.950117...@rac3.wam.umd.edu>,
> MoonLighter 110 <po...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
> >> Jeremy Lysaght (je...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au) wrote:
> >
> >Good point - one must now question why the roles of Spock and all others
> >have been wired to Anglos when either Middle Easterner or Asiatics
> >(Mongolian actors unite!) would have been more appropriate.
>
> The role of Spock was not assigned to an "Anglo". Nimoy is Jewish,
> which is to say of Middle Eastern extraction (undoubtably mixed with some
> Eastern European genes). Nowhere near Anglo-Saxon!

It would be difficult to argue that Nimoy does not present an appearance
that could be considered of the "White" variety on the species.
Therefore, while he may not be of "Anglo-Saxon" ancestry, my larger point
stands.



> >So they go with Uhura as both the Black and female "rep". (Was Nicole
> >chosen because of her former relationship with Gene? A whole different thread)

> >. Of course, even that was not allowed to happen - notice how Ensigns
> >were left in charge of the ship OVER *LIEUTENANT* Uhura???
>
> Were they? I thought the ship was always left to Lieutenants,
> although they had to bring in a male-Lieutenant-of-the-week rather than
> (heaven forbid) hand the ship over to a WOMAN!

I based that on an interview with Nicole I saw somewhere, not a particular
episode. I can only hope that she was accurate.

> >Star Trek, on the Federation side, was always supposed to be a society
> >where men and women are measured by character and competency.
>
> Which is why both sexes had to wear extremely short skirts :)

I said SUPPOSED....although I think the show could have truly explored
new dimensions if everybody wore skirts. Not that the sponsors would
have lined up behind Star Trans Trek.

[Here's where I droned on about Whites being a minority on earth.]

> >So for those who perhaps have a slight "problem" with a Black Vulcan

[And here's where I wondered why Whites - humans in general, even - seem
so abundant throughout the Federation. Was there a Pigment War after
Eugenics?]

> Well, I don't know about aliens, but certainly the hyperabundance of
> white people in Starfleet should be reassuring to all those Angry White
> Boys (tm) who are so upset about "PC" Voyager.

I wonder - if the crew were mostly Indians (of India) and Chinese and the
ship named USS Yin-Shiva or something - would the viewing public stay as
glued to the sets...

Dave
who would, of course, throw in a few White males to make people comfortable.

Alara Rogers

unread,
Jan 17, 1995, 8:32:55 PM1/17/95
to
Wigmore <Tad_W...@MBNet.MB.CA> writes:

>can't help but feel that the writers for this series have purposefully
>made him black in an overdeveloped spirit of Political Correctness, rather
>than just in the interest of a good story.

According to the interview in TV Guide, they were originally casting for
a white guy in his 60's, but no one fit the part, so they asked Tim Russ.

And considering that he is the best Vulcan we've seen since Saavik, and
*she* was half Romulan, I'm glad they did.


>Someone indicated that there had already been a black Vulcan; would someone
>please reply as to when and where? Thank you.

In ST: V. I believe the midwife presiding at Spock's birth was black.

Also there was a black Romulan in The Pegasus, I think.

Phred Werenich

unread,
Jan 17, 1995, 11:04:00 PM1/17/95
to
I was wondering about the whole biological side of black vulcans.
Humans darken their skin in order to prevent cell damage from the sun's
rays. I'm not certain whether it is infa-red or ultra-violet rays we
are trying to block when we tan. Whatever it is, our bodies know that
that particular ray is harmful to us and that dark skin reduces the
risk. When that ray is not as plentiful, we lighten our skin to allow
absorbtion of sunlight for vitamin D production.

Vulcans have copper based blood. We have iron based blood. It is
possible that Vulcans are blocking entirely different rays out than we
are. In fact, it is possible that the pigment that looks "black" to us
looks "white" to vulcans. Vulcan's sun is very different from Sol.

It may be that dark vulcans do not come from the same geographic that
dark humans come from. For that matter, dark skin may be the "natural"
color of a vulcan who spends a few generations out of Vulcan's sun.

Just a thought.

Melanie Byas

unread,
Jan 17, 1995, 9:22:00 PM1/17/95
to
AR>>DS9 episodes??) Anyways, given that Vulcan are supposedly non-
>>racist in any way (IDIC and all that), why haven't we seen a black
>>Vulcan before this? Now, real life answer is that humans aren't
>>Vulcan, and therefore we tend to have prejudices dispite working really
>>hard at them. But has anyone come up with a Star Trek answer?

I haven't read in any of the official network/studio character
descriptions that Tuvok is a "black Vulcan". They only say that he's a
Vulcan!

>
>The answer could be that they are a lot rarer than black humans... or
>another possibility is that the capital city area of Vulcan (Shi'Kahr)
>is a far more cosmopolitan place than most of Vulcan-- for all their belief
>in IDIC, Vulcans tend to be traditionalist, hidebound and isolationist.
>Remember that Spock was the first Vulcan to serve on a mixed-crew
>ship (mixed-crew hell, he was practically the only alien) in Starfleet,
>even though Earth and Vulcan had known of each other at least a hundred year
>It may be that nearly all the Vulcans we see in the series come from the
>Shi'Kahr area, whereas black Vulcans come from a different region of the
>planet that, like most regions that aren't Shi'Kahr, doesn't produce a lot
>of forward-lthinking, let's-go-to-the-stars type Vulcans. Tuvok may
>be unusually progressive for a Vulcan from these areas, or his family
>might have emigrated to the Shi'Kahr area a long time ago.

And this has to be the most idiotic thing I've read in at least the
last 5 years! The differences of mixed crews in Star Trek is about
species, not race. And that "unusually progressive" statement is
right out of the Crusades, the Inquisition and the 19th century!
Life's too short to be wasted on such trivializations.
---
ş 1st 1.11 #1566 ş "Ensign Pillsbury? He's BREAD, Jim!"

MoonLighter 110

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 12:42:39 PM1/18/95
to

> AR>>DS9 episodes??) Anyways, given that Vulcan are supposedly non-
> >>racist in any way (IDIC and all that), why haven't we seen a black
> >>Vulcan before this? Now, real life answer is that humans aren't
> >>Vulcan, and therefore we tend to have prejudices dispite working really
> >>hard at them. But has anyone come up with a Star Trek answer?
>
> I haven't read in any of the official network/studio character
> descriptions that Tuvok is a "black Vulcan". They only say that he's a
> Vulcan!

Which would seemingly "prove" their existance - after all, those guys set
the rules.

> >The answer could be that they are a lot rarer than black humans... or
> >another possibility is that the capital city area of Vulcan (Shi'Kahr)
> >is a far more cosmopolitan place than most of Vulcan-- for all their belief
> >in IDIC, Vulcans tend to be traditionalist, hidebound and isolationist.
> >Remember that Spock was the first Vulcan to serve on a mixed-crew
> >ship (mixed-crew hell, he was practically the only alien) in Starfleet,
> >even though Earth and Vulcan had known of each other at least a hundred year
> >It may be that nearly all the Vulcans we see in the series come from the
> >Shi'Kahr area, whereas black Vulcans come from a different region of the
> >planet that, like most regions that aren't Shi'Kahr, doesn't produce a lot
> >of forward-lthinking, let's-go-to-the-stars type Vulcans. Tuvok may
> >be unusually progressive for a Vulcan from these areas, or his family
> >might have emigrated to the Shi'Kahr area a long time ago.

Yes, I think you will find is that the non-Shi'Kahr Vulcans are not
capable of going-to-the-stars. They just are not "suited" for it.
They are really good people, some of my best friends are
non-Shi'Kahr Vulcans. They are just so shiftless and lazy sometimes, and
usually have the emotional swings and maturity of children.

I guess this whole theory would best fit why they picked a Black actor,
right?

Dave
who would like to point out that those non-Shi'Kahr's can sing and dance!

Miguel Farah

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 9:32:45 AM1/18/95
to
Bernhard Rosenkraenzer (BE...@flash.gun.de) wrote:

>In message D2Aq2...@attchle.chile.ncr.com, mfa...@attchle.chile.ncr.com wrote:
>> You're forgetting that canon also has mistakes.... Spock himself is one.

>Why do you think so?
>I never found a mistake in Spock. Actually, he's my favorite TOS crew
>member.

He's also my favorite. However, his hybrid existance (half-human, half
vulcan) is impossible (or highly highly highly highly highly highly highly
improbable), as vulcans and humans are different species. Any biologist
will tell you this.
--
Miguel Farah - mfa...@ing.puc.cl

Corey Alton Reid

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 5:16:32 PM1/18/95
to
Alara Rogers (aj...@delphi.com) wrote:
: Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> writes:
:
: > I don't think we have much canonical information about the climate
: >of Vulcan. The three visits to Vulcan have all shown desert scenes, but
: >all three featured ritual locations, which may be located in the desert for
: >reasons unrelated to an absence of other climes (how's that for tortured
: >syntax?).
:
: And all three were right around Spock's home town, the capital city
: Shi'Kahr.
:
: Also, there are black Romulans. I don't think the races diverged long
: enough ago to have acquired an entirely new pigment stock...

You're right. In the seventh season episode "The Pegasus," the Romulan
commander was dark-skinned. I feel that most "alien" races have
differing pigments (although to date, only Earth, Vulcan, Romulus, and
Bajor have exhibited differing pigmented peoples.) (BTW--I would love to
see a dark-skinned Trill...)

Another point brought up in earlier postings is the fact that Spock was a
mistake. This IS correct...sorta...

The basic idea is that Terrans and Vulcans are incompatible species
(humans being of iron-based blood and Vulcans of copper-based blood).
The very existence of Spock would suggest genetic help

On a related point, whether or not Romulans and Terrans are compatible
is a different story. Possibly, the historic rift between Vulcans and
Romulans could have led to the ability that Romulans and Terrans are more
compatible (hence Simon Tarses ("The Drumhead") and Sela ("Redemption"
and "Unification").

However, the Vulcanoid species could be like the Terranoid species
(varying in pigment) to the extent that before the Romulans left Vulcan,
the possibility was there...

--
Corey Alton Reid
e-mail: pea...@wam.umd.edu

[Reasons to visit Bali:
"If we are lucky we will see duck boys bringing their ducks home, men
massaging their cocks on the road, cow boys taking grass. Yes it is a
wonderful experience. Don't miss it during your visit to the island o
the gods, Bail." --Tunas Indonesia Tours & Travel brochure]

from "776 Even Stupider Things Ever Said" by Ross and Kathryn Petras

The Galaxy Ranger

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 3:47:32 PM1/18/95
to
In article <1995Jan12.0...@bsuvc.bsu.edu> 01klca...@bsuvc.bsu.edu (Kenton L. Campbell) writes:

>In article <3f1doa$8...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>, gol...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Golden Geophysical) writes:
>> I find it interesting that, while so many people seem to be upset by the idea
>> of a black Vulcan, I haven't seen even ONE post by someone surprised that

>> Sorian (spelling? - anyway the villian from Generations) was WHITE. After
>> all, he was an El-Aurian (spelling again? - need a Star Trek module for my
>> spell checker!) and the only El-Aurian that we had seen up to that point
>> was Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg) who is, in case you hadn't noticed, just a
>> tad on the dark side. Why then, didn't we see hundreds of posts
>> agonizing about the talented black actors who were passed over in favor
>> of Roddy McDowell even though he obviously was wrong for the part (by
>> virtue of being white)?

>Bravo! Having a white actor play an El-Aurian to me seemed rather silly.
>Whoopi's lack of eyebrows gives her a distinctive humanoid alien look
>(especially when you add the mortar-board/chef's-hat/flowing-robe motif),
>and to virtually abandon that look in the El-Aurians in GENERATIONS
>annoyed me to no end.

I fail to see the point. How many of these El-Aurians have we seen in
our life. You can't base your hypothesis on the fact that because you
have seen one you have seen them all. It would be like if the Klingons
were watching there favorite SF show and there was a Terran as a main
character who was white and all of a sudden a new Terran was broguht on
who was black and they'd say that was stupid. But that's not to say
that having a black Vulcan is correct either. Now that we are on the
subject of Klingons, what would people say if there was suddenly a
White Caucasian Klingon (pure bread, not half breed) running around.
There'd be riots in the streets every where. I'm not saying that anyone
has a right or not to play the part of any alien but the species does
kind of have to be consistant.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Newman | "I don't _trust_ Lando"
email: buzz...@meceng.coe.neu.edu | "Well, I don't trust him, either.
www: http://splinter.coe.neu.edu/~buzzwang/ | But he is my friend"

George Nassiopoulos P-353 495-7181

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 2:03:17 PM1/18/95
to
James L. Coffey (jco...@crl.com) wrote:

: And of course it's all fiction - why do you think the shuttlecrafts cast
: a shadow on the Big E when they pass by it, even though they are both in
: the vacuum of space.

Gosh, you mean there are NO shadows in a vacuum? I'll remember that
next time i view a lunar eclipse!

George Nassiopoulos
nas...@cfa.harvard.edu

Alara Rogers

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 9:46:20 PM1/18/95
to
Melanie Byas <melani...@ase.com> writes:

>And this has to be the most idiotic thing I've read in at least the
>last 5 years! The differences of mixed crews in Star Trek is about
>species, not race. And that "unusually progressive" statement is

I meant species, not race. I assumed Starfleet crews have been racially
mixed as far as humans go since Starfleet began. Spock is one of the first
non-humans to serve aboard a Starfleet ship.

Let's face it, folks, many Vulcans are hidebound and traditionalist. A
possible explanation for why we see fewer black Vulcans *could* be that
only a very small part of the Vulcan population has any interest in going
to space. This small part of the population would be the Vulcans located
near Vulcan's embassy with the Federation. Spock comes from this area. It
is not *totally* unreasonable to assume that most of the Vulcans we see
also come from this area. *This* could be why there is a predominance of
white Vulcans in Starfleet; *not* (let me repeat, NOT NOT NOT) because
black Vulcans are stupid, or are discriminated against, or are backwater
jerks, or whatever, but because ONLY A TINY PORTION OF VULCAN'S POPU-
LATION, black *or* white, JOINS STARFLEET! It is *possible* that this
is influenced by geography (much as the fact that Star Trek is made in
America, where only 13% of the population are black and probably a smaller
proportionate percentage are actors, means we do not see 80% blacks and
Asians in Starfleet, even though blacks and Asians make up at *least*
80% of the world's population), and geography influences race.

I apologize for the "unusually progressive" statement. It has a negative
connotation that I meant black Vulcans are backward, which I did *not*
mean, and it further implies that not wanting to go into space is a bad
trait, which it is not necessarily. Probably most Vulcans consider the
starfaring ones weird.

Finally, this is a theory. It's not written in stone, it's not canon. All
I tried to do was explain why we don't see more black Vulcans, even though
they should be a higher proportion than 2 out of maybe 20. Another possibility
is of course the idea that black Vulcans are just rarer than black humans.

Alara Rogers

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 9:36:55 PM1/18/95
to
MoonLighter 110 <po...@wam.umd.edu> writes:

>Yes, I think you will find is that the non-Shi'Kahr Vulcans are not
>capable of going-to-the-stars. They just are not "suited" for it.
>They are really good people, some of my best friends are
>non-Shi'Kahr Vulcans. They are just so shiftless and lazy sometimes, and
>usually have the emotional swings and maturity of children.

That's not what I meant at all, and I find it interesting that someone is
throwing this thinly veiled "you are a racist" rhetoric at *me*, when I
have argued from the beginning that anyone who thinks Vulcans can't be
black is stupid. Actually, I was thinking of the non-Shi'Kahr Vulcans
(and keep in mind, Shi'Kahr is a city; therefore, the non-Shi'Kahr area
covers most of the planet, and would have many, many Vulcans racially
identical to those in the Shi'Kahr area) as being just like the Vulcans in
the 23rd century: traditionalist, somewhat isolationist, saying things like
"Are our ceremonies for outworlders?" like T'Pau did in TOS. They are
*certainly* not less intelligent, hardworking, or logical than other Vulcans;
in fact, it is Vulcans of the Shi'Kahr area, with their exposure to alien
behavior, that are considered "weird" and "unVulcan" by most of the planet.
However, these are the Vulcans most interested in participating in the
Federation, and so these are the Vulcans we most often see!

I was trying to come up with an explanation why half the Vulcans we see
*aren't* black. They live in an area of the planet that tends to be more
traditionalist and doesn't go to space that often seems like an explanation
to me. To assume, as you do, that I was automatically saying that they
are inferior because they don't go to space and therefore that's why a
black guy was chosen is first of all to miss the point: I was trying to
explain why we *don't* see black Vulcans more often. Second, it is presump-
tuous in the extreme, because in no way did the text of what I wrote imply
it. How do you know I'm not black? Hell, how do you know I'm not an
activist for equal rights?

To recap:

Black Vulcans are just like white Vulcans, asian Vulcans, etc. They're all
Vulcans. End of story.

If someone suggests that the reason we do not see more black Vulcans is that
most of them live in an area where few Vulcans choose to go offworld, that
does not imply that that person believes blacks, black Vulcans, or any other
kind of people to be inferior in any way.

Traditionalist, hidebound Vulcans would be more logical than Vulcans constant-
ly exposed to human behavior. Far from being "shiftless" and "emotional",
they would behave the way most Vulcans did in the 23rd century.

You obviously cannot read.

MoonLighter 110

unread,
Jan 19, 1995, 1:01:46 AM1/19/95
to

On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Alara Rogers wrote:

> MoonLighter 110 <po...@wam.umd.edu> writes:
>
> >Yes, I think you will find is that the non-Shi'Kahr Vulcans are not
> >capable of going-to-the-stars. They just are not "suited" for it.
> >They are really good people, some of my best friends are
> >non-Shi'Kahr Vulcans. They are just so shiftless and lazy sometimes, and
> >usually have the emotional swings and maturity of children.
>
> That's not what I meant at all, and I find it interesting that someone is
> throwing this thinly veiled "you are a racist" rhetoric at *me*, when I
> have argued from the beginning that anyone who thinks Vulcans can't be
> black is stupid. Actually, I was thinking of the non-Shi'Kahr Vulcans
> (and keep in mind, Shi'Kahr is a city; therefore, the non-Shi'Kahr area
> covers most of the planet, and would have many, many Vulcans racially
> identical to those in the Shi'Kahr area) as being just like the Vulcans in
> the 23rd century: traditionalist, somewhat isolationist, saying things like
> "Are our ceremonies for outworlders?" like T'Pau did in TOS. They are
> *certainly* not less intelligent, hardworking, or logical than other Vulcans;
> in fact, it is Vulcans of the Shi'Kahr area, with their exposure to alien
> behavior, that are considered "weird" and "unVulcan" by most of the planet.
> However, these are the Vulcans most interested in participating in the
> Federation, and so these are the Vulcans we most often see!

I do wish you had re-included your original post, but I will make do.
I my problem with what you said is that you were certainly unclear in
meaning. I simply - and somewhat sarcastically I hoped (more :+)'s
needed?) - extened a "reasonable" conclusion derived from your remarks.

It was just too easy when you are attempting to justify the existance of
a Black Vulcan by saying that some Vulcans are not spacefaring. It could
be argued that spacefaring could be a "sign" of intelligence or
ambition. In the Star Trek Universe, in MOST cases, the benchmark for
a species progress is space travel. Not MANY (trying to stay fuzzy) have
given up travel yet progressed further (except for those many Godfolk in
TOS and TNG).

> I was trying to come up with an explanation why half the Vulcans we see
> *aren't* black. They live in an area of the planet that tends to be more
> traditionalist and doesn't go to space that often seems like an explanation
> to me.

That is a "blind" explanation only in that there is no particular basis
to suggest that such a condition exists. That there is perhaps a
perponderance of Black Vulcans who do not wish to engage in such strange
ways just opens up more questions - not "racist" questions, but ones
where you just keep having to slap "theoretical Band-Aids" to hold things
together. I was just hoping for a simpler one.

> I was trying to
> explain why we *don't* see black Vulcans more often. Second, it is presump-
> tuous in the extreme, because in no way did the text of what I wrote imply
> it.

I disagree. I believe the text could imply many things. I pounced on
the most extreme interpretation just to show that it COULD be read as such.

> How do you know I'm not black? Hell, how do you know I'm not an
> activist for equal rights?

What difference would that make? I could not care less what your color,
sex, God(/s/esses) you love or whatever other demos you fall under when
you write. To "consider" such things would be prejudicial in itself. I
just am reading what you write.

> To recap:
>
> Black Vulcans are just like white Vulcans, asian Vulcans, etc. They're all
> Vulcans. End of story.

Actually, by your theory, we could expect a "higher" appreciation of
logic in this one. <ducks> I guess we will have to watch the show and wait.

> You obviously cannot read.

Gee...that stings.
Perhaps I cannot read very well. A favor?
State your ideas more clearly and I will never be able to show you other
interpretations.

Dave
who now returns you to your regularly scheduled Usenet.

Christopher Bradford Stone

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 1:25:27 PM1/18/95
to
In article <3fh000$8...@mystech.mystech.com>,
Jacobson <ja...@mystech.mystech.com> wrote:
>
>Because 'racist' is another one of those words in the english language which
>in today's society carries with it the same weight as 'child molester' or
>'sexual harassment'.....once any of these terms are used, the guilt is
>automatically assumed.

Actually, I disagree. The word "racist" has been thrown around so much
these days that the word has lost all its currency. (The same thing is,
unfortunately, happening to the word "fascist," as in "Newt Gingrich is a
fascist." Whatever Mr. Gingrich is, a Nazi he ain't.) When someone who,
say, opposes affirmative action is branded a "racist," the main effect is
to diminsh the potency of the word "racist." And this makes it all the
easier for *real* racists out there to get away with racism.
--
////// // // ////// // ////// Christopher B. Stone
// ////// ///// // ///
// // // // // // /// "Consensus is the negation
////// // // // // // ////// of leadership." -Margaret Thatcher

Christopher Bradford Stone

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 1:33:35 PM1/18/95
to
In article <3fi73s$5...@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au>,
Kate Orman <kor...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au> wrote:

>Naturally, if [Tuvok] had been white, there wouldn't have been a


>"fuss". The only people making a "fuss" are those who have a problem with
>non-white characters - because people are "naturally" white, y'know?

It's easy to knock down strawmen, Kate. Please cite exactly who has
argued that people are "naturally white."

And note that I say "people," as in _Homo sapiens_ -- NOT Vulcans.
Clearly most humans are not white; but who knows about other species?
(In any case, genetic distinctions between the races are so minor that
the whle concept of "race" is silly from a genetic standpoint.)

Most of the anti-Tuvok arguments boil down to this. Yes, we can expect
genetic diversity in other races. But why should that diversity take the
same form as in human beings? What would be wrong with having, say, a
green Vulcan?

>What do you mean by "political correctness", anyway? Diversity's always
>been part of Trek.

Wrong. Infinite diversity IN INFINITE COMBINATION has always been part
of Trek.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Political correctness may parade
under the facade of diversity, but in fact it has very little to do with
diversity. Rather, its ultimate goal is renewed segregation. That is
why we find proposals for "Afrocentric" history lessons in high schools,
for example. Under political correctness, one's value is not determined
by the content of one's character, but by group affiliation.

Yesterday I read a very good column by John Leo, who pointed out that in
MLK's time, people who opposed racism chanted, "Black and White
together," and that today, no one chants that slogan anymore. That is
precisely why race relations are so bad today. Again, we see innumerable
calls for infinite "diversity," but none for infinite combination.

(And please no reponses along the lines of "IDIC didn't exist
until the 3rd TOS season; I'm talking about the spirit of IDIC, not the
term itself.)

>>Someone indicated that there had already been a black Vulcan; would someone
>>please reply as to when and where? Thank you.
>
>STV.

It's so wonderful to see how the Tuvok issue has finally got people
rallying around Star Trek V -- a vastly _underrated_ movie, IMHO.
Before, the rallying cry was, "Star Trek V's not canon!" No more. Now
it's "Black Vulcans are _extremely_ canon! Look at Star Trek V!"

In any case, I am more than willing to accept the existence of Black
Vulcans. (Not African-American Vulcans, but Black Vulcans, since Africa
and America are parts of Earth.) Given Tuvok, there's not much else we
can do.

However, I believe that Black Vulcans must be rarer than Black humans --
in Star Trek III, and again in Star Trek VI, we see the highest eschelons
of the Vulcan government, and yet there were no Black Vulcans on Mt.
Seleya.

The equivalent on Earth would be beaming down to the UN and not seeing a
single Black face.

This leads us to one of two conclusions. One possibility is that Black
Vulcans suffer from discrimination, and are thereby shut out of the
highest levels of Vulcan society. But I reject that possibility. Racism
is neither logical nor compatible with IDIC. If Earth has eliminated
racism by the 23rd century, surely Vulcan has as well.

That leaves us with the second possibility: that Black Vulcans are much
rarer than Black humans. Therefore we wouldn't necessarily expect to see
a Black Vulcan on Mt. Seleya.

Alara Rogers

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Jan 18, 1995, 9:25:34 PM1/18/95
to
Miguel Farah <mfa...@chile.ncr.com> writes:

>He's also my favorite. However, his hybrid existance (half-human, half
>vulcan) is impossible (or highly highly highly highly highly highly highly
>improbable), as vulcans and humans are different species. Any biologist
>will tell you this.

That is not a mistake. That's stupid Treknology. You're quite right that if
we really met aliens, there is almost no chance we could breed with them.
But that is a conscious decision made on Trek's part to create a universe
where we *can* breed with aliens. It's not a mistake, it's a deliberate
flouting of logic for dramatic effect.

Dwight Williams

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 8:36:02 PM1/18/95
to
In a previous posting, MoonLighter 110 (po...@wam.umd.edu) writes:
>> In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.950117...@rac3.wam.umd.edu>,
>> MoonLighter 110 <po...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>> >> Jeremy Lysaght (je...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au) wrote:
(various digressions re: Nimoy, Nichols, race and gender ignored for the
time being)

> [And here's where I wondered why Whites - humans in general, even - seem
> so abundant throughout the Federation. Was there a Pigment War after
> Eugenics?]

Well, the Chronology _does_ make reference to a WW 3 and a Post-Atomic
Horror. One wonders...and usually has nightmares about the implications.

(more deleted)

> I wonder - if the crew were mostly Indians (of India) and Chinese and the
> ship named USS Yin-Shiva or something - would the viewing public stay as
> glued to the sets...

Depends which country you produced and aired the show in, I'd bet. What
would be the equivalent to "Enterprise" in terms of grabbing audience
loyalty in India, China or Nihon for example? Or the Middle East nations?
Any suggestions?

--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca)
1706 Caminiti Cres., Orleans, ON, Canada K4A 1M1

Golden Geophysical

unread,
Jan 18, 1995, 11:19:24 PM1/18/95
to
According to all the interviews with the writers and produces of Voyager,
Tuvok was originally imagined as a 160 year old Vulcan and was to be
played by a white actor in his 60's. When, after some time had passed
without finding a suitable actor, they started looking at younger actors.
Finally they junked the specs and went with the actor who ended up
playing him (sorry, only seen one episode so far, can't remember the
name) who had been the runner-up to be Georgi in TNG and had played a
couple of other roles in TNG simply on the grounds that be was a good
actor who was familiar to them.

However, I'm sure all those folks that can't sleep at night because the
concept of a non-caucasian alien is too threatening to them will believe
that all these interviews are lies, part of the evil conspiracy directed
by the Overlords of the planet PC, designed to make us forget the well
known fact that the universe is entirely populated by white male Republicans.

Honestly - we laugh at the scholars in the middle ages who debated about
how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. If they could have
known that in the future hundreds of nominally rational people would use
the latest in computer technology and a world-wide communications network
to argue seemingly endlessly over the skin color of a fictional member of
a fictional species living in the 24th century they would kill themselves
laughing.

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
| Golden Geophysical Corporation | Grady Richardson - Processing Support |
| 10727 Kinghurst | (713) 879-2276 Supervisor |
| Houston, Texas 77099 | |
| (800) 231-9809 | "It is not necessary to understand things |
| (713) 981-8181 (ext 276) | in order to argue about them." |
| (713) 498-0265 (fax) | |
| gol...@starbase.NeoSoft.com | Pierre de Beaumarchais |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+

Bernhard Rosenkraenzer

unread,
Jan 17, 1995, 4:12:00 PM1/17/95
to

You're wrong. The episode was "Plato's stepchildren (sp?)", and the
Platonians forced Kirk to do it.

StarFleet Admiral Bero,
current Captain of the starship U.S.S. Tawern, NCC-54456
_
.-----________________--_ ________.--'-`--._____
\____==================_) \_'===================`
_,--___.-|__|-.______|=====/ `---'
`---------._ USS - Tawern|
`-._ - - - ,'
\_____,-'

e-mail: BE...@Flash.gun.de

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

Mike J. M.

unread,
Jan 19, 1995, 4:16:16 PM1/19/95
to
BE...@flash.gun.de (Bernhard Rosenkraenzer) wrote:
>In message <3f725k$h...@crl.crl.com>, jco...@crl.com wrote:
>
>> Miguel Farah (mfa...@chile.ncr.com) wrote:
>> He never kissed her on TV. It's a an urban legend. A nice one, but
>> false none the less.
>
>You're wrong. The episode was "Plato's stepchildren (sp?)", and the
>Platonians forced Kirk to do it.

Miguel is correct. No kiss.

It's not quite an urban legend, because there is more than a grain of truth to it. In
"Plato's Stepchildren," we do see what looks like Kirk kissing Uhura. But he's not.
It's a stage kiss (shades of Gleason and Meadows). Their lips never touched.

The scene was also shot with a real kiss, but that footage was nixed by the network
censors.


- Mike J. M. <*>
- "Any suggestion that there is any equipment in our cars
- designed to spy on a driver is pure hogwash." - GM spokesman

Miguel Farah

unread,
Jan 19, 1995, 12:36:57 PM1/19/95
to
Shows what you know! (boe...@river.it.gvsu.edu) wrote:
>Jeremy Lysaght (je...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au) wrote:

>: The real point is Vulcan, like any other planet has areas of of heat and
>: cold. Those Vulcans from the hot areas will have developed darker skin to
>: compensate for the hot sun. Its as simple as that. Now stop reading racial
>: rights or social upheaval into it. If the guy plays the part badly then bag
>: him, if he plays it well praise him, but at least lets wait and see eh!

There is a problem: vulcans are GREEN because of their copper-based
blood. Besides that, vulcans do not have melanine, which is what makes
a person black (or filled with freckles, for that matter - I know about
this: I got quite a lot :-) ). Thus, and considering that vulcans DO NOT
have melanine (and another things: vulcans do not sweat!).

>Actually, Vulcan is supposed to be almost entirely desert, isn't? Very
>little climate change and all that.

Yeah!

Miguel Farah

unread,
Jan 19, 1995, 12:38:51 PM1/19/95
to
Todd Horowitz (to...@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> Many Vulcans we've encountered were from Spock's family, so they
>would be likely to look like him. That accounts for part of it. It's also
>possible that, unlike humans, Vulcans are mostly paler-skinned, so random
>sampling will give you more pale ones than dark ones.

Let's see: T'Pau wasn't a Spock relative. Neither T'Prinn, Stonn, Saavik
(both of them :-) ) and Val'eris were. So...

Odum1

unread,
Jan 19, 1995, 3:40:00 PM1/19/95
to
This string is, ahh, disturbing?? Almost as if its a debate about whether
we should have to "accept" a non-white alien.
So now we know there are black vulcans. Great. Cool.
Maybe there are some pink ones, too. Never been there myself, after
all...........:+)

James L. Coffey

unread,
Jan 19, 1995, 5:52:14 PM1/19/95
to
Mike J. M. (moo...@cnj.digex.net) wrote:

: BE...@flash.gun.de (Bernhard Rosenkraenzer) wrote:
: >In message <3f725k$h...@crl.crl.com>, jco...@crl.com wrote:
: >
: >> Miguel Farah (mfa...@chile.ncr.com) wrote:
: >> He never kissed her on TV. It's a an urban legend. A nice one, but
: >> false none the less.
: >
: >You're wrong. The episode was "Plato's stepchildren (sp?)", and the
: >Platonians forced Kirk to do it.

: Miguel is correct. No kiss.

Miguel didn't write that, I did. Someone's messed up the attributations
in their post.

Todd Horowitz

unread,
Jan 19, 1995, 11:36:53 PM1/19/95