[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "A Time to Stand"

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John

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Oct 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/4/97
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Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
>
> WARNING: "A Time to Stand"? Yes, but also a time to review --
> and thus, a time to spoil. For you, then, it might be time to skip this
> article unless you want spoilers.
>
> In brief: I didn't *love* it, but I definitely liked it a lot -- and it
> shows a nice trend.
>
> ======
> Written by: Ira Steven Behr & Hans Beimler
> Directed by: Allan Kroeker
> Brief summary: Three months into the Federation/Dominion war,
> Sisko takes a Jem'Hadar ship on a desperate mission.
> ======
>
> Wait a minute.
>
> Did I just see a season premiere which *didn't* essentially press the
> reset button on the previous cliffhanger? I did? Wow. What a
> pleasant notion. :-)

AH! That is true. But they DID press the fuc*ing Fast forward button
and excluded the anticipated FED/DOM main battle that vanquished the
Seventh Fleet.

Very, Very bad.

> In the final half or final third of its previous season, DS9 began to
> really weave many different threads together into a whole that, while
> not always consistent or seamless, was without a doubt interesting to
> watch and to speculate about. If "A Time to Stand" did nothing else,
> it showed that DS9 is also starting to take a somewhat longer view
> about how long major changes can be "allowed" to exist ... and that,
> by itself, is a strikingly good sign.


There have been a few multi-show episodes that attempted to do the same
thing, all with mixed results. I do agree that the, "A Time to Stand"
storyline does look promising, we shall see if it holds.


> That shift in timing was evident almost from the very beginning, with
> "A Time to Stand" picking up not immediately where "Call to Arms"
> left off, but three months later -- far enough into the war to have the
> situation plain. On a practical level, this makes it easy to justify
> between-season changes like hairstyles (both Kira's and Dukat's),
> but it also justifies the Federation's desperation, and also allows
> references to lots of destroyed ships without having to blow a
> season's worth of effects budget. :-)

How many billions of dollars have Paramount squeezed out of the Star
Trek franchise? It pains me that they could have not thrown a few more
gold pressed bars for A FEW more F/X shots. I think they spent it on
the "Call to Arms" show.

> Far more important than the beginning, however, was the fact that
> the episode ended *without* everything returning to normal. The
> station isn't back in the good guys' hands; rather, Weyoun may be
> cementing his hold politically by bringing Odo onto the ruling
> council, and it's been fairly clear that at the moment, there's not
> much that can be done to reclaim the station, from within or without.
> Sisko's actions this week may help turn the tide of the war over the
> long term, but in the short term it did him and DS9 no real good.
> That sort of incremental progress is far more natural to me than most
> of the major DS9 plot developments we've had in the past (such as
> the onset of the Klingon war, which was shoehorned in like crazy),
> and is quite refreshing.

There was no other way for the "war" to have progressed. The Feds, even
without taking such massive losses could never retake the station in one
episode. And if they did, I would have turned off the TV.

Now, with the Seventh fleet destroyed, I see it as HIGHLY unlikely that
the Feds will win, even when you factor in the loss of the K White
production facility. The minefield is far to tenuous a block against
the Dominion. The Feds should be sweating real hard by now.

If the DOM does not break a hole in the minefield by episode 2, then the
credibility of the DOM forces will come into question (being stopped by
mines, surely they have encounted such devices before!) as to the
writers im afraid.

> As with any new approach, though, there were a few gaps in logic
> that left me scratching my head. In this case, the feel of "it's been
> three months" was broken a few times, which was jarring. For
> instance, Starfleet has had the Jem'Hadar ship of Sisko's for about a
> year now, but no one's ever tested the headsets to see if there are side
> effects, and no one's trained to fly it properly.

That seems unlikely. Without a doubt a test pilot was assigned to
confirm flight control and perform a fast shakedown (under extreme
security)

But just like real test pilots must yield thier craft to "regular"
pilots, so too was this ship. After all, Starfleet wasn't giving the
ship to an unexperienced crew. Dax is a good pilot and a science
officer and probably was given a "crash - course" in piloting the craft.

About the visor and it side effects. It seems to me that the device was
tested, it had to have been, on a human. How else could they test the
craft in flight? It was probably deemed "safe" in relative terms. And
as such, Starfleet did not think that its side effects were worth
mentioning (given the fact that the Feds are at war with a powerful
enemy)

Add to that, even if the visor had side effects that would damage a
human nervous system after a time, I submit that Starfleet (or any other
government under such stress) would still have not given Sisko (or
anyone else) a warning about it.

It squares perfectly with how governments opperate. Even the peacefull
United Federation of Planets.

Think: The Gulf War.

>Even given that it would have taken Starfleet time to get it operational, that >feels like a reach. It's not completely implausible, but I think it needed to be >justified.

Not really, it is implied. It wasn't nessisary to go into such detail.

> Similarly, Quark's attempt to get the Jem'Hadar to loosen
> up is something that should have been tried rather early into the
> occupation, not three months in. (Admittedly, his speech was
> somewhat halfhearted, so perhaps it was the umpteenth attempt.) In
> any case, while the attempt to show time passing was generally
> successful and helpful, there were a few glitches here and there.

I agree.

> On a character level, things haven't changed that much, with one
> exception: Bashir's genetic enhancement is now mentioned a great
> deal, and is very much in the forefront of his character. I'm not
> entirely sure I like that; as I said back when his background was first
> revealed, making him a superbeing was unnecessary to the plot at the
> time, and felt likely to spark a lot of distrust among the rest of the
> crew. So far, we've had a few bon mots about it from Garak (which
> were, of course, delightful), but there doesn't seem to be any sense
> that people resent it. Perhaps in a perfect Federation society, they
> wouldn't ... but DS9's strength for years has been its distinct *lack*
> of perfection. Granted, this sort of followup is definitely better than
> none (and is in some ways more than I expected), but it felt a little off
> in spots to me. (I'm not sure the staff really knows what they want
> to do with Bashir; certainly, he's been tossed around as a companion
> for everyone from Garak to O'Brien to Jake, and who Bashir
> *himself* is has only come up once or twice a season at best.)

Or perhaps, Sisko and company (including Kira) dont really care. The
doctor has proven his compassion and steadfastness numerous times. He
has proven that he has no hidden agenda other than his medical
research. Like a best friend or a blood relative, when they hurt you
(to a high degree) they should be forgiven at least once. After all,
how does Bashir's genetic enhancements hurt the crew? His parents are
paying the price, as too is Bashir in his own way.

Sisko and company most likely feel that they can look beyond the doctors
"secret" and accept him even more as one of thier own.

Now, if Bashir had been found out in the first season, the crew would
not have been so kind.

> As I said, not much else changed on a character level -- and in
> addition, the plot held few real surprises. In a lot of respects,
> though, that's a good thing. The characters and their interactions
> have generally been working well on DS9 for quite some time, so
> major shifts aren't particularly necessary or even expected -- and the
> plot was unsurprising because a lot of the events in it were very
> sensible ones given the situation. One would certainly expect
> Weyoun to be even more obsequious than usual when dealing with
> Odo, just as one would expect him to deny Jake's articles the light of
> day. Similarly, one would expect Kira to use Odo's godhood against
> Dukat and Weyoun, and Dukat trying to impress Kira is equally
> natural. On that level, then, having the plot hold few surprises
> works.

The Weyon - Dukat interplay is perfect. I loved it.

Weyon is one funny bastard.

> Unfortunately, that sometimes robs the show of any edge-of-your-
> seat quality it might possess, and that was more or less the case here.
> "A Time to Stand" was a good, solid piece of work, but it didn't
> have me absolutely avid to find out what happens next the way the
> truly top-of-the-heap shows do. It accomplished a great deal,
> showing a good sense of what life is like on the station now and
> tossing in a bit of the war to boot, but didn't leave me agonizing for
> more.


More space combat. Even Scorpion II had more.


> One scene did stand out, though. I was on the edge of my seat for
> the Kira/Dukat confrontation in his office, mostly because my skin
> had crawled there on its own. That scene was about as stellar as they
> come: Kira's plight and Dukat's power became both very, very real
> and very, very worrying. Dukat's statements, while certainly in line
> with the character we once saw as sympathetic, were also quite
> chilling in many respects, and Kira's fire even in the face of serious
> danger ("you could start by doing something about your breath") had
> me simultaneously cheering her and fearing for her safety. On every
> level -- writing, directing, and acting -- that scene was a standout.
> Bravo.

I liked Kira's "haggard" and "lost" look. It portrayed powerful
emotions without her saying a word.

> Another scene that felt right, if not as chilling as the Kira/Dukat
> scene, was Jake's attempt to interview Weyoun. Weyoun's casual
> dismissal of Jake with "you're biased against the Dominion" was
> very interesting; it's certainly something you'd expect a media-savvy
> Weyoun to do, but even more importantly it suggests that Jake may
> well eventually end up writing Dominion propaganda despite his
> objections to the contrary. Weyoun is quite aware that controlling
> information is key to any dictatorship's success, and stonewalling
> Jake with a smile on his face is, long-term, one of the nastier things
> we saw him do all episode. There are an awful lot of ways Jake can
> go here, and I'll be intrigued to see which way things end up.


Like I said before, Weyon is one funny bastard. Its a good thing! :)


> As for the main plot, Sisko's mission to destroy the Dominion
> supply of "white" ... that's the one part where a lot of rules seemed
> to bend in order to fit the story, so it impressed me less. Some of
> them I've mentioned above -- the question of why there wasn't an
> experienced crew already on the ship, the question about the
> headsets, and so on -- but other things felt forced as well, such as
> Sisko's call to his father. The scene itself was fine, and having
> Sisko be forced to tell his father about Jake certainly makes sense,
> but the scene nonetheless felt like it was in there solely to give Sisko
> a scene with his father.

Nope, your wrong about Sisko's father scene.

Think about it. Sisko has been putting off telling his old man about
his grandson for obvious reasons - what could Sisko say? What excuse
can he conjure up?

Also consider the powerful emotional element involved. Father and son.
How often are adult sons made into children before thier elder fathers?
I dare say the percentage is rather high.

But Sisko HAD to tell him. He was being reassigned off the powerfull
Defiant, and to and unknown mission. With unforseen danger.

If Sisko had not contacted his father (who is perfectly cast BTW) at the
time hid did (waiting for his new assignement) then Sisko would risk
being killed on that mission and never telling him the things that
needed to be said.

> In addition, the "whoops, the security net's
> up" followed by "whoops, the bomb blew early" both felt like
> artificially created crises to prevent the situation from resolving itself
> cleanly.

Ah, but if the transfer and Sisko's disengagement had gone "cleanly"
there would have been cries allover this NG about yet another simplistic
storyline.

That scene was somewhat predictable, if not nessisary to complicate the
story.

> Neither one was explained -- and with the asteroid
> destroyed, neither one is likely to be next week either. As a result,
> the last act or so felt anticlimactic in a lot of ways. (The final bit of
> dialogue, though, with Bashir bleakly spelling out how much time it
> would take them to get to a starbase without warp drive, was a
> killer.)

Bashir must have some Vulcan in his family, somewhere!

> Some shorter thoughts:
>
> -- Who has the Defiant now? Given Starfleet's desperate situation,
> they can't possibly be holding it in mothballs for Sisko's return.
> Who has it?

I say that it is being refit and upgraded with better armor, shields and
perhaps a new weapon system. Tri - Cobalt Devices??? (YES!!!)
Starfleet's phasing cloak???

Heaven knows the Defiant will need a refit for the future retake of the
station.

> -- If Jake were really smart, he'd try to smuggle his stories out via
> Quark -- or better yet, talk to Odo and have Odo order Weyoun to
> release them. Jake's young enough that it'd certainly be
> understandable if he didn't, but I think either of those might be a
> savvy thing to try.

Alas, Jake is still a tad naive in many ways. Perhaps the war will
blossom certain characteristics in him. If war does not, then nothing
will.

> -- Similarly, were I Kira I'd bring Odo along for my next meeting
> with Dukat, disguised as a padd or something. Odo certainly knows
> what Dukat's been up to, but having him intrude on Dukat's "private
> moment" might drive a little spike into Dukat's sense of superiority.
> Dukat certainly couldn't do anything about it; it'd drive Weyoun
> through the roof.

> -- The one Worf/Martok scene was cute. Martok's insistence that
> Worf tell Dax what's been on his mind led to lots of speculation over
> the next few minutes: I think my favorite response to "You must tell
> her *now*" was "I'm not a complete man any more." :-)

Yes, that was funny and nice. It also hallmarked that Martok and Warf
enjoying a brotherhood that both need very badly. Its good to see. I'm
gald to see Warf getting everything he wants (a wife and a
father/brother) he's earned it!

> -- As contrived as the Sisko/Sisko scene was in some ways, the elder
> Sisko's question about why space wasn't big enough to let everyone
> leave each other alone was very pointed -- and very good.

Not contrived in the least.

> That about covers it. "A Time to Stand" wasn't flawless by any
> means -- but after three months of waiting, having a followup that
> doesn't drop the ball or feel like backpedaling (a la "Apocalypse
> Rising" in many respects) is a substantial achievement in and of
> itself. I'm definitely curious to see where things go next, particularly
> on the station.


> Wrapping up, then:
>
> Writing: Some questionable twists to make the story "work", but
> generally true to the characters and to the situations.
> Directing: The Quark-makes-a-speech scene went on too long, and
> in other spots the pacing felt a mite off ... but generally fine.
> Acting: No real worries here; the cast dropped back into character
> just fine.
>
> OVERALL: 8.5, I think; too many contrivances to be truly top-
> notch, but quite nice nonetheless.

I would give it 10, but the lack of the Seventh Fleet engaging ANYTHING
takes away 3 points - and i'm being kind tonight. I'm just glad I
finally got to see it!!! :)


Bliss is new DS-9 / B5 episode. Can anything compare !!!!


> NEXT WEEK:
>
> Sisko and company are marooned on a planet, with lots of
> Jem'Hadar for company. Suddenly I have this extraordinary feeling
> of deja vu...

Indeed, even the rockscape looks the same.

Die Well Friend, (Old Klingon Saying)

John


> Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)

> Copyright 1997, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
>

Timothy W. Lynch

unread,
Oct 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/5/97
to

WARNING: "A Time to Stand"? Yes, but also a time to review --
and thus, a time to spoil. For you, then, it might be time to skip this
article unless you want spoilers.

In brief: I didn't *love* it, but I definitely liked it a lot -- and it
shows a nice trend.

======
Written by: Ira Steven Behr & Hans Beimler
Directed by: Allan Kroeker
Brief summary: Three months into the Federation/Dominion war,
Sisko takes a Jem'Hadar ship on a desperate mission.
======

Wait a minute.

Did I just see a season premiere which *didn't* essentially press the
reset button on the previous cliffhanger? I did? Wow. What a
pleasant notion. :-)

In the final half or final third of its previous season, DS9 began to

really weave many different threads together into a whole that, while
not always consistent or seamless, was without a doubt interesting to
watch and to speculate about. If "A Time to Stand" did nothing else,
it showed that DS9 is also starting to take a somewhat longer view
about how long major changes can be "allowed" to exist ... and that,
by itself, is a strikingly good sign.

That shift in timing was evident almost from the very beginning, with

"A Time to Stand" picking up not immediately where "Call to Arms"
left off, but three months later -- far enough into the war to have the
situation plain. On a practical level, this makes it easy to justify
between-season changes like hairstyles (both Kira's and Dukat's),
but it also justifies the Federation's desperation, and also allows
references to lots of destroyed ships without having to blow a
season's worth of effects budget. :-)

Far more important than the beginning, however, was the fact that

the episode ended *without* everything returning to normal. The
station isn't back in the good guys' hands; rather, Weyoun may be
cementing his hold politically by bringing Odo onto the ruling
council, and it's been fairly clear that at the moment, there's not
much that can be done to reclaim the station, from within or without.
Sisko's actions this week may help turn the tide of the war over the
long term, but in the short term it did him and DS9 no real good.
That sort of incremental progress is far more natural to me than most
of the major DS9 plot developments we've had in the past (such as
the onset of the Klingon war, which was shoehorned in like crazy),
and is quite refreshing.

As with any new approach, though, there were a few gaps in logic

that left me scratching my head. In this case, the feel of "it's been
three months" was broken a few times, which was jarring. For
instance, Starfleet has had the Jem'Hadar ship of Sisko's for about a
year now, but no one's ever tested the headsets to see if there are side

effects, and no one's trained to fly it properly. Even given that it

would have taken Starfleet time to get it operational, that feels like a
reach. It's not completely implausible, but I think it needed to be

justified. Similarly, Quark's attempt to get the Jem'Hadar to loosen

up is something that should have been tried rather early into the
occupation, not three months in. (Admittedly, his speech was
somewhat halfhearted, so perhaps it was the umpteenth attempt.) In
any case, while the attempt to show time passing was generally
successful and helpful, there were a few glitches here and there.

On a character level, things haven't changed that much, with one

exception: Bashir's genetic enhancement is now mentioned a great
deal, and is very much in the forefront of his character. I'm not
entirely sure I like that; as I said back when his background was first
revealed, making him a superbeing was unnecessary to the plot at the
time, and felt likely to spark a lot of distrust among the rest of the
crew. So far, we've had a few bon mots about it from Garak (which
were, of course, delightful), but there doesn't seem to be any sense
that people resent it. Perhaps in a perfect Federation society, they
wouldn't ... but DS9's strength for years has been its distinct *lack*
of perfection. Granted, this sort of followup is definitely better than
none (and is in some ways more than I expected), but it felt a little off
in spots to me. (I'm not sure the staff really knows what they want
to do with Bashir; certainly, he's been tossed around as a companion
for everyone from Garak to O'Brien to Jake, and who Bashir
*himself* is has only come up once or twice a season at best.)

As I said, not much else changed on a character level -- and in

addition, the plot held few real surprises. In a lot of respects,
though, that's a good thing. The characters and their interactions
have generally been working well on DS9 for quite some time, so
major shifts aren't particularly necessary or even expected -- and the
plot was unsurprising because a lot of the events in it were very
sensible ones given the situation. One would certainly expect
Weyoun to be even more obsequious than usual when dealing with
Odo, just as one would expect him to deny Jake's articles the light of
day. Similarly, one would expect Kira to use Odo's godhood against
Dukat and Weyoun, and Dukat trying to impress Kira is equally
natural. On that level, then, having the plot hold few surprises
works.

Unfortunately, that sometimes robs the show of any edge-of-your-


seat quality it might possess, and that was more or less the case here.
"A Time to Stand" was a good, solid piece of work, but it didn't
have me absolutely avid to find out what happens next the way the
truly top-of-the-heap shows do. It accomplished a great deal,
showing a good sense of what life is like on the station now and
tossing in a bit of the war to boot, but didn't leave me agonizing for
more.

One scene did stand out, though. I was on the edge of my seat for

the Kira/Dukat confrontation in his office, mostly because my skin
had crawled there on its own. That scene was about as stellar as they
come: Kira's plight and Dukat's power became both very, very real
and very, very worrying. Dukat's statements, while certainly in line
with the character we once saw as sympathetic, were also quite
chilling in many respects, and Kira's fire even in the face of serious
danger ("you could start by doing something about your breath") had
me simultaneously cheering her and fearing for her safety. On every
level -- writing, directing, and acting -- that scene was a standout.
Bravo.

Another scene that felt right, if not as chilling as the Kira/Dukat

scene, was Jake's attempt to interview Weyoun. Weyoun's casual
dismissal of Jake with "you're biased against the Dominion" was
very interesting; it's certainly something you'd expect a media-savvy
Weyoun to do, but even more importantly it suggests that Jake may
well eventually end up writing Dominion propaganda despite his
objections to the contrary. Weyoun is quite aware that controlling
information is key to any dictatorship's success, and stonewalling
Jake with a smile on his face is, long-term, one of the nastier things
we saw him do all episode. There are an awful lot of ways Jake can
go here, and I'll be intrigued to see which way things end up.

As for the main plot, Sisko's mission to destroy the Dominion

supply of "white" ... that's the one part where a lot of rules seemed
to bend in order to fit the story, so it impressed me less. Some of
them I've mentioned above -- the question of why there wasn't an
experienced crew already on the ship, the question about the
headsets, and so on -- but other things felt forced as well, such as
Sisko's call to his father. The scene itself was fine, and having
Sisko be forced to tell his father about Jake certainly makes sense,
but the scene nonetheless felt like it was in there solely to give Sisko

a scene with his father. In addition, the "whoops, the security net's

up" followed by "whoops, the bomb blew early" both felt like
artificially created crises to prevent the situation from resolving itself

cleanly. Neither one was explained -- and with the asteroid

destroyed, neither one is likely to be next week either. As a result,
the last act or so felt anticlimactic in a lot of ways. (The final bit of
dialogue, though, with Bashir bleakly spelling out how much time it
would take them to get to a starbase without warp drive, was a
killer.)

Some shorter thoughts:

-- Who has the Defiant now? Given Starfleet's desperate situation,
they can't possibly be holding it in mothballs for Sisko's return.
Who has it?

-- If Jake were really smart, he'd try to smuggle his stories out via

Quark -- or better yet, talk to Odo and have Odo order Weyoun to
release them. Jake's young enough that it'd certainly be
understandable if he didn't, but I think either of those might be a
savvy thing to try.

-- Similarly, were I Kira I'd bring Odo along for my next meeting

with Dukat, disguised as a padd or something. Odo certainly knows
what Dukat's been up to, but having him intrude on Dukat's "private
moment" might drive a little spike into Dukat's sense of superiority.
Dukat certainly couldn't do anything about it; it'd drive Weyoun
through the roof.

-- The one Worf/Martok scene was cute. Martok's insistence that
Worf tell Dax what's been on his mind led to lots of speculation over
the next few minutes: I think my favorite response to "You must tell
her *now*" was "I'm not a complete man any more." :-)

-- As contrived as the Sisko/Sisko scene was in some ways, the elder

Sisko's question about why space wasn't big enough to let everyone
leave each other alone was very pointed -- and very good.

That about covers it. "A Time to Stand" wasn't flawless by any

means -- but after three months of waiting, having a followup that
doesn't drop the ball or feel like backpedaling (a la "Apocalypse
Rising" in many respects) is a substantial achievement in and of
itself. I'm definitely curious to see where things go next, particularly
on the station.

Wrapping up, then:

Writing: Some questionable twists to make the story "work", but
generally true to the characters and to the situations.
Directing: The Quark-makes-a-speech scene went on too long, and
in other spots the pacing felt a mite off ... but generally fine.
Acting: No real worries here; the cast dropped back into character
just fine.

OVERALL: 8.5, I think; too many contrivances to be truly top-
notch, but quite nice nonetheless.

NEXT WEEK:



Sisko and company are marooned on a planet, with lots of
Jem'Hadar for company. Suddenly I have this extraordinary feeling
of deja vu...

Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"What do you think is going to happen here, Dukat? That you're
going to wear me down with your charming personality? That I'm
gonna be swept off my feet by that insincere smile? Are you really
so deluded that you actually believe that we're going to have some
sort of intimate relationship?"
"Oh ... we already do."
-- Kira and Dukat
--


Copyright 1997, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...

This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.

Helen Rapozo

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Oct 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/5/97
to

On 5 Oct 1997, Timothy W. Lynch wrote:

> Some shorter thoughts:
>
> -- Who has the Defiant now? Given Starfleet's desperate situation,
> they can't possibly be holding it in mothballs for Sisko's return.
> Who has it?
>

Maybe during this time Worf is going to command the Defiant when
the Borg come a calling (Star Trek: First Contact).


Honolulu Community College Ph#: (808) 845-9202
874 Dillingham Blvd FAX#: (808) 845-9173
Honolulu, HI 96817 cs_r...@hccadb.hcc.hawaii.edu

My designation is -1 of 10, prepare to be....ahh shoots I forgot my lines.

Tony Chin

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Oct 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/5/97
to

On 5 Oct 1997, Timothy W. Lynch wrote:

> WARNING: "A Time to Stand"? Yes, but also a time to review --
> and thus, a time to spoil. For you, then, it might be time to skip this
> article unless you want spoilers.
>
> In brief: I didn't *love* it, but I definitely liked it a lot -- and it
> shows a nice trend.
>
> ======
> Written by: Ira Steven Behr & Hans Beimler
> Directed by: Allan Kroeker
> Brief summary: Three months into the Federation/Dominion war,
> Sisko takes a Jem'Hadar ship on a desperate mission.
> ======

> Another scene that felt right, if not as chilling as the Kira/Dukat

> scene, was Jake's attempt to interview Weyoun. Weyoun's casual
> dismissal of Jake with "you're biased against the Dominion" was
> very interesting; it's certainly something you'd expect a media-savvy
> Weyoun to do, but even more importantly it suggests that Jake may
> well eventually end up writing Dominion propaganda despite his
> objections to the contrary. Weyoun is quite aware that controlling
> information is key to any dictatorship's success, and stonewalling
> Jake with a smile on his face is, long-term, one of the nastier things
> we saw him do all episode. There are an awful lot of ways Jake can
> go here, and I'll be intrigued to see which way things end up.

I don't know. This scene felt wrong to me (although the dialogue was
good) because it seems odd that they would let Jake be free to walk around
the station. Since it's war against the Federation and Jake is a
federation citizen plus the son of one of the top commanders in the war, I
figure they would use him as leverage and make him a Prisoner of War. But
I guess your point of Dominion propaganda might be the reason to let him
roam and write.


T.C.


Bart Gerardi

unread,
Oct 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/5/97
to

On Sat, 04 Oct 1997 04:43:41 -0400, John <john1...@hotmail.com>
graced us with:

>If the DOM does not break a hole in the minefield by episode 2, then the
>credibility of the DOM forces will come into question (being stopped by
>mines, surely they have encounted such devices before!) as to the
>writers im afraid.
>

The DOM could probably break the minefield from the Alpha
Quadrant side without much difficulty. They could also probably
break it in open space, too. But, from their side, they can't
get at it without going through the wormhole, and blowing up.
And, I think Dukat is dragging his feet. If he can win the war
he might not disable the minefield, ever.


>About the visor and it side effects. It seems to me that the device was
>tested, it had to have been, on a human. How else could they test the
>craft in flight? It was probably deemed "safe" in relative terms. And
>as such, Starfleet did not think that its side effects were worth
>mentioning (given the fact that the Feds are at war with a powerful
>enemy)
>

Well, first, they're is no saying that they tested it on a human.
Perhaps the test pilot was some other race, and they never
thought that it could affect humans badly. Perhaps the human
test pilot simply didn't wear the headset long enough to see the
affects. Perhaps the side affects only come from travelling at
high speeds, which they didn't do. ...


-----------------------------------------------------
Bart Gerardi, Information Technologist at Large, well
maybe not that large... ger...@mail.dec.com
-----------------------------------------------------
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Grand Nagus

unread,
Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

"Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:


>Timothy W. Lynch wrote:

>As is usual I disagree with most of your review but this part in particular
>caught my eye.

>>One scene did stand out, though. I was on the edge of my seat for
>>the Kira/Dukat confrontation in his office, mostly because my skin
>>had crawled there on its own. That scene was about as stellar as they
>>come: Kira's plight and Dukat's power became both very, very real
>>and very, very worrying.

>I think it further changed Dulat's character. At one point we believed, if
>nothing else, he was an intelligent dictator. Cruelty for him was like a
>finely tuned instrument that was to be used carefully and never in excess.
>OR at least that was the impression I got during before this scene.

Then obviously it is wrong.

>He ended up looking like a complete twit

That sounds familiar somehow.

>whose overconfidence would destroy him. Overconfidence had always
>been a part of Dukat's personality but never, ever had it been the
>soul of it as it was in this scene(and through out this episode)

That's just wonderful. I suppose you're writing for the show.

> Dukat's statements, while certainly in line
>>with the character we once saw as sympathetic, were also quite
>>chilling in many respects, and Kira's fire even in the face of serious
>>danger ("you could start by doing something about your breath") had >me
>simultaneously cheering her and fearing for her safety. On every
>>level -- writing, directing, and acting -- that scene was a standout.
>>Bravo.

>Personally I laughed at how standard that was actually saying out loud, "She
>is going to say something about his breath."

That's to be expected from you. You laugh at everything that does not
fit with your retarded views.

>Nothing exciting, chilling or anything else remotely resembling
>something emotionally profound there.

The most emotionally profound thing for you is the first time you used
your hand.

>The acting was wonderful.

I suppose you're bound to have one thing right occassionally.

>I will say that Visitor's face was far more expressive than the
>dialogue and greatly improved upon an otherwise dull and uninteresting
>scene that had but a single good line,"Major, We already do!"

Two things right! That's amazing for your! But I suppose that's
because that number fits your description.

<snipped stupid .sig>

P.S. Just a friendly reminder: I did not change any of your words in
any manner for this post. I realize my mistake in changing what you
say in my previous posts. I don't have to change anything you say
since you retarded things anyway. So from now on I'll just let your
statements go unchanged.

P.P.S I would have preferred to have read Tim Lynch's review than your
retarded comments of his review. It's not a perfect world.

Yongho Son Minale

unread,
Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to


John <john1...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<343601...@hotmail.com>...


> > Did I just see a season premiere which *didn't* essentially press the
> > reset button on the previous cliffhanger? I did? Wow. What a
> > pleasant notion. :-)
>
> AH! That is true. But they DID press the fuc*ing Fast forward button
> and excluded the anticipated FED/DOM main battle that vanquished the
> Seventh Fleet.
>

Why is this a bad thing. Story certainly doen't need it. I mean all a
battle would do would be satisfied those imature individuals who feed of
cool FX and sensless violence. I hope you are not one of those people and
saw the power and depth of this story.


> Very, Very bad.
>
> > In the final half or final third of its previous season, DS9 began to
> > really weave many different threads together into a whole that, while
> > not always consistent or seamless, was without a doubt interesting to
> > watch and to speculate about. If "A Time to Stand" did nothing else,
> > it showed that DS9 is also starting to take a somewhat longer view
> > about how long major changes can be "allowed" to exist ... and that,
> > by itself, is a strikingly good sign.
>
>
> There have been a few multi-show episodes that attempted to do the same
> thing, all with mixed results. I do agree that the, "A Time to Stand"
> storyline does look promising, we shall see if it holds.
>

DS9 for the most part have done 2 parters. They tried to do multiple story
arc about the Klingon-Cardassian war but the idea was nixed at the last
minute. No Star Trek series has ever done a multiple story arc before.


>
> How many billions of dollars have Paramount squeezed out of the Star
> Trek franchise? It pains me that they could have not thrown a few more
> gold pressed bars for A FEW more F/X shots. I think they spent it on
> the "Call to Arms" show.

Maybe there saving the money so when they "need a firework display" they
will have one.


>
> There was no other way for the "war" to have progressed. The Feds, even
> without taking such massive losses could never retake the station in one
> episode. And if they did, I would have turned off the TV.

I guess you don't watch Voyager :-)



> Now, with the Seventh fleet destroyed, I see it as HIGHLY unlikely that
> the Feds will win, even when you factor in the loss of the K White
> production facility. The minefield is far to tenuous a block against
> the Dominion. The Feds should be sweating real hard by now.

We have no idea how large the combine Dominion-Cardassian or
Federation-Klingon Fleet is or where they are deployed. The Feds lost over
a hundred ships but how many were low cost or obsolete Klingon warships;
how large are there reservese (where the hell is the Enterprise-E) and how
many ships did the Feds destroyed. If Feds bleeds the Dominion white
(sorry for the pun) especially with the fact that their ship yards and
Ketracel white storage center was destroy and with no hope of
reinforcements in the near term, the Feds could win. What am I saying, the
Feds will win. This is Star Trek (American Television sigh).


> If the DOM does not break a hole in the minefield by episode 2, then the
> credibility of the DOM forces will come into question (being stopped by
> mines, surely they have encounted such devices before!) as to the
> writers im afraid.

They had 3 months to defeat these devices and they haven't gone anywhere.
You also must remeber currently in Gul Dukat's best interest to keep the
minefield up. The Dominion and the Feds will kill each other leaving the
Cardassians to pick up the pieces.

>
> That seems unlikely. Without a doubt a test pilot was assigned to
> confirm flight control and perform a fast shakedown (under extreme
> security)
>
> But just like real test pilots must yield thier craft to "regular"
> pilots, so too was this ship. After all, Starfleet wasn't giving the
> ship to an unexperienced crew. Dax is a good pilot and a science
> officer and probably was given a "crash - course" in piloting the craft.
>
> About the visor and it side effects. It seems to me that the device was
> tested, it had to have been, on a human. How else could they test the
> craft in flight? It was probably deemed "safe" in relative terms. And
> as such, Starfleet did not think that its side effects were worth
> mentioning (given the fact that the Feds are at war with a powerful
> enemy)
>
> Add to that, even if the visor had side effects that would damage a
> human nervous system after a time, I submit that Starfleet (or any other
> government under such stress) would still have not given Sisko (or
> anyone else) a warning about it.
>
> It squares perfectly with how governments opperate. Even the peacefull
> United Federation of Planets.
>
> Think: The Gulf War.

I have to disagree with this. We don't know how long the Dominion Fighter
was operational or how long it had been tested. To me it seem this was a
last minute, one shot gamble made by the Starfleet command to shorten the
war not a well though out plan. The lack of preparedness shows how
desperate the Feds really are (or their unwillingness to fight a long drawn
out conflict). The Feds have always taken the moral high ground even when
there throats are cut.

Think: Cloaking Device

John

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Bart Gerardi wrote:
>
> On Sat, 04 Oct 1997 04:43:41 -0400, John <john1...@hotmail.com>
> graced us with:

Well said, and properly phrased.

> >If the DOM does not break a hole in the minefield by episode 2, then the
> >credibility of the DOM forces will come into question (being stopped by
> >mines, surely they have encounted such devices before!) as to the
> >writers im afraid.

> The DOM could probably break the minefield from the Alpha
> Quadrant side without much difficulty. They could also probably
> break it in open space, too.

Then why dont they??

> But, from their side, they can't
> get at it without going through the wormhole, and blowing up.
> And, I think Dukat is dragging his feet. If he can win the war
> he might not disable the minefield, ever.

To keep the rest of the DOM fleet at bey while the DOM alpha quadrant
fleet fights with the FED fleet until they both are run down. AND then
Dukat comes in with his fleet and takes them both.

That is the most plausible explaination to be sure.

However this does not explain why DOM ships under Weyon's control cannot
clear a path on thier own. Weyon is too smart for that. And they will
come to blows (Dukat and Weyon) over that subject. It will be
interesting.



> >About the visor and it side effects. It seems to me that the device was
> >tested, it had to have been, on a human. How else could they test the
> >craft in flight? It was probably deemed "safe" in relative terms. And
> >as such, Starfleet did not think that its side effects were worth
> >mentioning (given the fact that the Feds are at war with a powerful
> >enemy)
> >
>

> Well, first, they're is no saying that they tested it on a human.

Are not Human's in the majority in Starfleet? I'm sure they would not
have picked an Andorian.

> Perhaps the test pilot was some other race, and they never
> thought that it could affect humans badly. Perhaps the human
> test pilot simply didn't wear the headset long enough to see the
> affects.

Sisko developed side effects fast enough. Surely the test pilot noted
something to that effect (as required in a test flight, to note any
physiological effects)

> Perhaps the side affects only come from travelling at
> high speeds, which they didn't do. ...

How do you know? A test flight would have to include a high speed run
to test out the systems under stress.


> -----------------------------------------------------
> Bart Gerardi, Information Technologist at Large, well
> maybe not that large... ger...@mail.dec.com
> -----------------------------------------------------
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


John

gchavis

unread,
Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Two points:

1. "Warp Speed"

I'm going to open up the Warp 10 debate. At the end of "A Time To Stand," Bashir stated
that it would take 17 years ("...give or take an hour or two,") at impluse power for
Sisko and the boys to reach the nearest Federation outpost in their commandeered
Jem'Hadar ship. Well, I will assume that the "nearest Federation outpost" is the
starbase their journey to blow up the "White" production facility started at. I will
also assume (since the story didn't tell me) that that trip into Dominion space took a
few (unspecified) days.

Now, if 17 years at Warp 7 (Sisko's stated speed heading into Dominion space) is reduced
to just a few days ("...give or take an hour or two,"), why are we lead to believe that
Voyager's crew will all be octogenarians (except Tuvok, Neelix and Dr. "Schmaltz") by
the time they complete their now 60 year journey back to the Alpha Quadrant? The way I
figure it, if 17 years at Warp 7 is but a few days, then 60 years at similar speed
should be but a few weeks!

2. "Jake Sisko and the Constitution"

When I was in the Marine Corps, stationed abroad, I cringed every time I heard a Marine
or any U.S. military person, accused of some infraction of local law, attempt to evoke
the protections granted by our Constitution. It was a ridiculous thing to hear.
Likewise was Jake's comment to Weyoun when he protested the Dominion's censorship of his
communiques to the Federation, evoking his First Amendment "right" to freedom of the
press; what makes Jake (or, the writers) imply that the Dominion, vis-a-vis the Vorta,
would respect an ancient Earth document? And are we to understand that the U.S.
Constitution applies, 500 years later, to all that makes up the Federation?

G. Chavis
--
_
//\
// \\
// ACHIEVEMENT...1911
\\ //
\\ // gch...@ix.netcom.com
\\/
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."

Stephen Gallagher

unread,
Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to gchavis

> 2. "Jake Sisko and the Constitution"
>
> When I was in the Marine Corps, stationed abroad, I cringed every time I heard a Marine
> or any U.S. military person, accused of some infraction of local law, attempt to evoke
> the protections granted by our Constitution. It was a ridiculous thing to hear.
> Likewise was Jake's comment to Weyoun when he protested the Dominion's censorship of his
> communiques to the Federation, evoking his First Amendment "right" to freedom of the
> press; what makes Jake (or, the writers) imply that the Dominion, vis-a-vis the Vorta,
> would respect an ancient Earth document? And are we to understand that the U.S.
> Constitution applies, 500 years later, to all that makes up the Federation?

Jake was not invoking any rights from the United States Constitution.
It has never even been mentioned whether or not the US even exists
in the 24th century (other than as a geographic area). It's
most likely that we was referring to a freedom guaranteed by the
Constitution of the United Federation of
Planets. This document was mentioned in the TNG episode "The Drumhead".
It has already been mentioned that the UFP Constitution contains a guarantee
protecting a person against self incrimination, so there is most likely
also a guarantee of freedom of the press.

As to why Jake would assume that the Dominion would honour
such a right is a question to ask the writers.
In fact, even before the Dominion attacked the station was
under Bajoran law and technically the UFP constitution would
not apply there either. Of course, since the Federation was
ready to admit Bajor, Bajoran law probably has a law
guaranteeing freedom of the press already.

S. Gallagher

Roberto Castillo

unread,
Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

After a long, hard day of battling the soulless minions of orthodoxy, I came
home just in time to see gchavis <gch...@popd.ix.netcom.com> writing:

>2. "Jake Sisko and the Constitution"
>
>When I was in the Marine Corps, stationed abroad, I cringed every time I heard a Marine
>or any U.S. military person, accused of some infraction of local law, attempt to evoke
>the protections granted by our Constitution. It was a ridiculous thing to hear.
>Likewise was Jake's comment to Weyoun when he protested the Dominion's censorship of his
>communiques to the Federation, evoking his First Amendment "right" to freedom of the
>press; what makes Jake (or, the writers) imply that the Dominion, vis-a-vis the Vorta,
>would respect an ancient Earth document? And are we to understand that the U.S.
>Constitution applies, 500 years later, to all that makes up the Federation?

Jake was invoking the principle of freedom of the press. It wasn't invented
by the U.S. Constitution and was never copyrighted by the Founding Fathers.
So any "nation" can have, or claim to have, freedom of the press without
having ever heard of the U.S. Constitution.

Jake has lived his entire life under Federation rule, which Picard implies
does have a constitution (not our Constitution, of course) in "The Perfect
Mate." He's young and naive, so he simply assumed that any "civilized" state
would enshrine certain basic freedoms just as the Federation does. So in
this sense Jake's portrayal was actually quite realistic.

--

"I am First Omet'iklan, and I am dead. As of this moment, we are all
dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly, for
we are Jem'Hadar. Remember, victory is life."
-- Omet'iklan

"I am Chief Miles Edward O'Brien. I'm very much alive, and I intend
to *stay* that way."
-- O'Brien


"I'm worried about Bart. Today, he's sucking people's blood,
tommorrow he might be smoking."
-Marge Simpson

Roberto Castillo
University of Illinois at Chicago
E-Mail: rca...@uic.edu
http://www2.uic.edu/~rcasti1/rcasti1.html

Rocky Steinhaus

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

On Mon, 06 Oct 1997 06:41:15 -0400, Stephen Gallagher <gall...@istar.ca> wrote:

>> 2. "Jake Sisko and the Constitution"
>>
>> When I was in the Marine Corps, stationed abroad, I cringed every time I heard a Marine
>> or any U.S. military person, accused of some infraction of local law, attempt to evoke
>> the protections granted by our Constitution. It was a ridiculous thing to hear.
>> Likewise was Jake's comment to Weyoun when he protested the Dominion's censorship of his
>> communiques to the Federation, evoking his First Amendment "right" to freedom of the
>> press; what makes Jake (or, the writers) imply that the Dominion, vis-a-vis the Vorta,
>> would respect an ancient Earth document? And are we to understand that the U.S.
>> Constitution applies, 500 years later, to all that makes up the Federation?
>

>Jake was not invoking any rights from the United States Constitution.
>It has never even been mentioned whether or not the US even exists
>in the 24th century (other than as a geographic area). It's
>most likely that we was referring to a freedom guaranteed by the
>Constitution of the United Federation of
>Planets. This document was mentioned in the TNG episode "The Drumhead".
>It has already been mentioned that the UFP Constitution contains a guarantee
>protecting a person against self incrimination, so there is most likely

>also a guarantee of freedom of the press.

>
>As to why Jake would assume that the Dominion would honour
>such a right is a question to ask the writers.
>In fact, even before the Dominion attacked the station was
>under Bajoran law and technically the UFP constitution would
>not apply there either. Of course, since the Federation was
>ready to admit Bajor, Bajoran law probably has a law
>guaranteeing freedom of the press already.
>
>S. Gallagher

Yep, and I'd imagine Bajor had it's own respect for rights before
the Cardassians, and probably would've revived it in almost any case.
(Could Kai Winn have sold facism without "the Federation threat"?).

I believe the Dominion treats DS9 as a Bajoran station. (Non-aggression, they
aren't going to take the station from them). Bajor *welcomed* them to DS9.
Weyoun wants to impress Bajor and show the other Non-agression pact
signers there's nothing to worry about. And Jake is the Son of the Emmisary.

I imagine, from the dialog, that Wayoun made vauge promises to Jake.
He probably promised to honor Bajor's freedom of press.
Then jerked him around till he'd be ripe to feel stung.
That sting was to get him to cooperate.
To paraphrase Wayoun: You make any story you want, but it takes
my authority to send any message. Security regs take precedence.
And I'm buzy).
Jake will have do it, just to let his family know he's alive.
But he'll wrangle for everything he can get.
(And I suspect Jake was just feigning ignorance).
--
fake address in headers.
To email, interpolate:

rocky (at) rcip (dot) com

Dennis Iannicca

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

In rec.arts.startrek.current gchavis <gch...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: 1. "Warp Speed"

: I'm going to open up the Warp 10 debate. At the end of "A Time To Stand," Bashir stated
: that it would take 17 years ("...give or take an hour or two,") at impluse power for
: Sisko and the boys to reach the nearest Federation outpost in their commandeered
: Jem'Hadar ship. Well, I will assume that the "nearest Federation outpost" is the
: starbase their journey to blow up the "White" production facility started at. I will
: also assume (since the story didn't tell me) that that trip into Dominion space took a
: few (unspecified) days.

: Now, if 17 years at Warp 7 (Sisko's stated speed heading into Dominion space) is reduced
: to just a few days ("...give or take an hour or two,"), why are we lead to believe that
: Voyager's crew will all be octogenarians (except Tuvok, Neelix and Dr. "Schmaltz") by
: the time they complete their now 60 year journey back to the Alpha Quadrant? The way I
: figure it, if 17 years at Warp 7 is but a few days, then 60 years at similar speed
: should be but a few weeks!

It would take them 17 years at *impulse* to get back to the
nearest starbase, a few days at warp 7. It would take Voyager 70 years at
cruising *warp* speed to get to Earth. If Voyager was cruising at less
than light speed it'd take them over 70,000 years to get home.

: 2. "Jake Sisko and the Constitution"

: When I was in the Marine Corps, stationed abroad, I cringed every time I heard a Marine
: or any U.S. military person, accused of some infraction of local law, attempt to evoke
: the protections granted by our Constitution. It was a ridiculous thing to hear.
: Likewise was Jake's comment to Weyoun when he protested the Dominion's censorship of his
: communiques to the Federation, evoking his First Amendment "right" to freedom of the
: press; what makes Jake (or, the writers) imply that the Dominion, vis-a-vis the Vorta,
: would respect an ancient Earth document? And are we to understand that the U.S.
: Constitution applies, 500 years later, to all that makes up the Federation?

Somehow I just know Jake is going to play some big part in all of
this.. maybe he'll illegally transmit a recording of a secret meeting
between Dukat and Weyoun detailing the conquering of the rest of the alpha
quadrant, etc. The Romulans and other alpha quadrant powers will pick up
on this and jump to the Federation's aid. I just don't think the Feds can
outgun the Dominion on their own.

--
--------------------------------------------
drs...@dominion.cba.csuohio.edu
Blinky lights are the essence of technology!
Caffeine underflow (brain dumped)

Carmen Frost

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

In article <58BDD6EEB9CD2B14.B96F846C...@library-proxy.airnews.net> email...@sucks.com (Rocky Steinhaus) writes:
>I imagine, from the dialog, that Wayoun made vauge promises to Jake.
>He probably promised to honor Bajor's freedom of press.
>Then jerked him around till he'd be ripe to feel stung.
>That sting was to get him to cooperate.
>To paraphrase Wayoun: You make any story you want, but it takes
>my authority to send any message. Security regs take precedence.
>And I'm buzy).
>Jake will have do it, just to let his family know he's alive.
>But he'll wrangle for everything he can get.

Look for Jake to "smuggle" information out that is embedded in articles that
are acceptable to Weyoun. Messages that only his Dad or other associates
would understand.

Carmen

dro...@mocten.moc

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

In article <3438B5...@popd.ix.netcom.com>,
gchavis <gch...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Two points:

>
>1. "Warp Speed"
>
>I'm going to open up the Warp 10 debate. At the end of "A Time To Stand," Bashir stated
>that it would take 17 years ("...give or take an hour or two,") at impluse power for
>Sisko and the boys to reach the nearest Federation outpost in their commandeered
>Jem'Hadar ship. Well, I will assume that the "nearest Federation outpost" is the
>starbase their journey to blow up the "White" production facility started at. I will
>also assume (since the story didn't tell me) that that trip into Dominion space took a
>few (unspecified) days.
>
>Now, if 17 years at Warp 7 (Sisko's stated speed heading into Dominion space) is reduced
>to just a few days ("...give or take an hour or two,"), why are we lead to believe that
>Voyager's crew will all be octogenarians (except Tuvok, Neelix and Dr. "Schmaltz") by
>the time they complete their now 60 year journey back to the Alpha Quadrant? The way I
>figure it, if 17 years at Warp 7 is but a few days, then 60 years at similar speed
>should be but a few weeks!

Assume the ship would be travelling at .5c, and disregard time dilation effects on
board the ship (meaning Bashir quoted the time difference that would be measured
when they got back and querried a federation time beacon). This means the distance
being travelled is 17*.5 = 8.5 light-years. According to the TNG tech manual, warp
7 is 656c, so the trip would take 8.5 years/656 = 4.73 days going at warp 7.

As for VOY, you're comparing apples and oranges: Voy will take 60 years to get back
to the Alpha Quadrant *at* warp speed, not at impulse. At warp 9 (1516c, from the
tech manual again), 60 years measures out to be 60*1516 = 90960ly. At impulse (well
at .5c), this trip would take 180,000 years (relative to an external observer).

(I know they say that Voy has 60,000 ly to travel. My numbers are off because warp
9 is not Voy's cruising speed, it's like 9.75)

>2. "Jake Sisko and the Constitution"
>
>When I was in the Marine Corps, stationed abroad, I cringed every time I heard a Marine
>or any U.S. military person, accused of some infraction of local law, attempt to evoke
>the protections granted by our Constitution. It was a ridiculous thing to hear.
>Likewise was Jake's comment to Weyoun when he protested the Dominion's censorship of his
>communiques to the Federation, evoking his First Amendment "right" to freedom of the
>press; what makes Jake (or, the writers) imply that the Dominion, vis-a-vis the Vorta,
>would respect an ancient Earth document? And are we to understand that the U.S.
>Constitution applies, 500 years later, to all that makes up the Federation?

Both of your questions assume some connection where one is not. The federation has
a constitution (established in a TNG episode). Since the Federation seems to be a
warm-and-fuzzy (tm) operation, we can assume there's a freedom of the press clause
somewhere in this constitution. Jake has lived under this constitution all his life,
so he's grown used to it. As for Jake trying to use his federation rights in a non-
federation area, Weyoun corrected him.

--
Glenn Lamb - dro...@mocten.moc, Email address reversed to munge
spam email scanners. Reverse before mailing.
Finger that address for my PGP Key.
PGPprint = E3 0F DE CC 94 72 D1 1A 2D 2E A9 08 6B A0 CD 82

Ian McIntire

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
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Rocky Steinhaus wrote:
> I believe the Dominion treats DS9 as a Bajoran station. (Non-aggression, they
> aren't going to take the station from them). Bajor *welcomed* them to DS9.
> Weyoun wants to impress Bajor and show the other Non-agression pact
> signers there's nothing to worry about.

That's one of the things I've been wondering about. Under Dominion law,
who exactly is the legal possessor of the station? Now, in light of the
non-agression treaty they've signed with Bajor, one would think that
they'd allow the Bajoran government to retain ownership. Kira's
continued presence on the station supports this idea.

However, I can't help remembering Weyoun's line (ISTR it was in the
scene with Jake) "This *is* a Cardassian station." It could be argued
that Cardassia still retains ownership of the thing, and I don't see how
Bajor could really effectively protest if the Dominion simply decided
that.
--
Ian McIntire i...@cwru.edu

Keith M. Kurzman

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
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George M. Chavis (gch...@pica.army.mil) wrote:
> And, more to the point, why would Jake ASSUME that a occupying military
> force (Jem'Hadar/Cardassian) would respect ANY rights guaranteed by the group they
> just vanquished (Federation)?

Um... because he's naive? Right after Jake says "What about free speech?"
doesn't Weyoun say, "Are you really *that* naive?" (Or something like
that.) The answer: yes. What's wrong with that.

--Morris


Justin F. Hartung

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

> > AH! That is true. But they DID press the fuc*ing Fast forward button
> > and excluded the anticipated FED/DOM main battle that vanquished the
> > Seventh Fleet.
> >
> Why is this a bad thing. Story certainly doen't need it. I mean all a
> battle would do would be satisfied those imature individuals who feed of
> cool FX and sensless violence. I hope you are not one of those people and
> saw the power and depth of this story.
>
I agree the shows should hinge around good stories
and character writing rather than space battles,
but, just for pacing's sake, I would've really
enjoyed an opening right in the middle of a battle,
with a call for Fed. retreat. Also, they needed to
get Sisko and Co. on the Jem Hadar ship right off
the bat, so that the rushed (as Lynch pointed out)
ending would've been a little more climactic.
But the character writing and general promise of
the arc were excellent. I love how Bashir is
utilizing his skill openly, but does seem rather
depressed about it.

Justin

M. Keane

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

In article <34387B...@hotmail.com>, John <john1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps the side affects only come from travelling at
>> high speeds, which they didn't do. ...
>
>How do you know? A test flight would have to include a high speed run
>to test out the systems under stress.

Maybe they didn't have time to test the thing out. Aftr all, they are
geting their butts kicked. The ship had probably been stripped and
different bits sent to research labs. And then when the war started, they
hurried to get it back together. It may be that Sisko et al *were* the
test pilots. If you're that desperate, it's easy to cut corners...
--
Micheal (Chris) Keane - Associate Professor of Gravitational Morality
University of Edicara
Join the Church of Last Thursday and worship Queen Maeve! E-mail me to join.
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia/thursday.htm

Jon Peck

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
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> > And, more to the point, why would Jake ASSUME that a occupying military
> > force (Jem'Hadar/Cardassian) would respect ANY rights guaranteed by the group they
> > just vanquished (Federation)?
>
> 'Cause the Dominion/Cardassian forces still have to play by *Bajoran*
> rules. They have signed a non-agression pact, haven't they?
> Theoretically, Prime Minister Shakaar could order the Dominion off the
> station, and they'd have to comply.

I think you (several of you) are missing the point entirely. You're thinking like
adults who have experienced a bit of the world. Jake isn't, and hasn't. I know, he's
an adult chronologically, and he's experienced part of the *galaxy* -- but he is neither
a mature man nor a worldly one. Given the cocoon-like environment in which he has spent
the past several years (perhaps the most important developmental years of his life), how
can we expect him to recognize that life can be *very* different when viewed from
others' perspectives? He's essentially a teenager, and most teenagers naturally assume
that everyone sees things the way they do -- that how things are in *their* lives is how
things are in *everyone's* lives. Having lived his entire cloistered life under
the Federation's laws and ways of thinking, it's only natural and inevitable that he
wouldn't even thing for a moment that everyone else doesn't see things his way. His
upbringing may enable him to recognize that different cultures do things different ways
(after all, he doesn't quite share Nog's approach to dating!), but that doesn't
translate into a recognition that different authorities might uphold "rights" a bit
differently, if they even recognize those rights at all.

So I ask you, which is more likely: that young Mr. Sisco analyzed the situation and
concluded that because the station is technically Bajoran, and that since technically
(or theoretically) the Dominion will respect Bajoran rule, that therefore Weyoun would
grant Jake all rights and privileges afforded him by Bajoran law -- or that it simply
didn't occur to Jake that the rules had changed?

ANich74630

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
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In article <3438C0...@istar.ca>, Stephen Gallagher <gall...@istar.ca>
writes:

>Jake was not invoking any rights from the United States Constitution.
>It has never even been mentioned whether or not the US even exists
>in the 24th century (other than as a geographic area). It's
>most likely that we was referring to a freedom guaranteed by the
>Constitution of the United Federation of
>Planets. This document was mentioned in the TNG episode "The Drumhead".
>It has already been mentioned that the UFP Constitution contains a guarantee
>protecting a person against self incrimination, so there is most likely
>also a guarantee of freedom of the press.
>
>As to why Jake would assume that the Dominion would honour
>such a right is a question to ask the writers.
>In fact, even before the Dominion attacked the station was
>under Bajoran law and technically the UFP constitution would
>not apply there either. Of course, since the Federation was
>ready to admit Bajor, Bajoran law probably has a law
>guaranteeing freedom of the press already.
>
>S. Gallagher

Even so, we can assume that Dukat is the military governer of the station.
Weyoon is the liaison of the Founders. We can also assume that martial law
is in effect, even though it has not been mentioned. They can choose to
honor, or ignore any law that they please. Weyoon is trying to manipulate
Jake into reporting what the Dominion wants. Sounds like us, doesn't it?
Live long and prosper

Dad

Jason Atkinson

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
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On Mon, 06 Oct 1997 14:39:02 GMT, email...@sucks.com (Rocky
Steinhaus) wrote:


>
>Yep, and I'd imagine Bajor had it's own respect for rights before
>the Cardassians, and probably would've revived it in almost any case.
>(Could Kai Winn have sold facism without "the Federation threat"?).
>

Sigh. Learn your terms people. It would be theocracy, not fascism.

A. LANGSDORF

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to Nelson Lu


On 6 Oct 1997, Nelson Lu wrote:

> In article <343928...@pica.army.mil>,
> George M. Chavis <gch...@pica.army.mil> wrote:
> >Mr. Castillo and Mr. Gallagher, (I think you're a "Mister"): :-)
> >such "freedoms"--speech, religion and press? Where was it stated that the
> >Dominion was a Republic, governed by a Democracy (it's citizens having the right
> >to vote and governmental power vested by the people)? The Founders are colonial
> >dictators and rule by oppression/slavery (Jem'Hadar) and duress (Vorta).
>
> Just to pick a nit -- the Dominion, as far as we know, is a republic -- it
> is not a monarchy nor any kind of a rule by a selected few. There were at
> least hundreds if not thousands of Founders. I actually think there is a lot
> of parallel between the Dominion and the Roman Republic -- the Roman Republic
> ruled a lot of places through clients, and Dukat/Cardassia fit that model quite
> well.

Uhm, Nelson, I don't think the rule of one species (or group) over
hundreds of others can be considered a democracy. An aristocracy or an
oligarchy, yes.

And the Roman Republic/Empire wasn't a democracy in the modern
sense. An oligarchy with your gens (if you were patrician) or your patron
(if you were a plebeian) determine where you stood and what your politics
were. And if you were a recently conquered people, you were usually driven
beneath a yoke and enslaved, which is what the Dominion does, only with
more style.

> >
> > And, more to the point, why would Jake ASSUME that a occupying military
> >force (Jem'Hadar/Cardassian) would respect ANY rights guaranteed by the group they
> >just vanquished (Federation)?
>

> Jake may be looking from the point of view that DS9/Terok Nor is still supposed
> to be legally a Bajoran station, and Bajor probably does guarantee these
> rights.
>

This is probably Jake's point of view, plus the fact that he's holding
onto Federation ideals and ethics, which say "freedom of the press".

Poor boy is in over his head, but I doubt he's in real danger, as Weyoun
doesn't need to threaten him to control him just yet.

Later,
AnneL


John

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
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Yongho Son Minale wrote:
>
> John <john1...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
> <343601...@hotmail.com>...
> > > Did I just see a season premiere which *didn't* essentially press the
> > > reset button on the previous cliffhanger? I did? Wow. What a
> > > pleasant notion. :-)
> >
> > AH! That is true. But they DID press the fuc*ing Fast forward button
> > and excluded the anticipated FED/DOM main battle that vanquished the
> > Seventh Fleet.
> >
> Why is this a bad thing. Story certainly doen't need it. I mean all a
> battle would do would be satisfied those imature individuals who feed of
> cool FX and sensless violence. I hope you are not one of those people and
> saw the power and depth of this story.

You say that not including the battle was not a bad thing? Would not
the battle have been a vital part of the story? Of coruse. Your
argument that sfx are for imature individuals holds no water. To see
something, to view a thing is a powerful way to communicate ideas and
actions. Humans, are a visual speices.

And is not war (the FED/DOM battle) violent by its very nature?

And to say that it is sensless implies that no principal and idea or way
of living is worth fighting for (ie. the Untited Federation of Planets
defending against the Dominion)

We needed to see the carnage and blood to understand how dirty and
horrid war really is.

And it is something to be avoided.

But I'm sure you like to think that wars are nice and clean. The Gulf
war's "video game" must have squared with your soft rose-colored view on
the world.

> > Very, Very bad.
> >
> > > In the final half or final third of its previous season, DS9 began to
> > > really weave many different threads together into a whole that, while
> > > not always consistent or seamless, was without a doubt interesting to
> > > watch and to speculate about. If "A Time to Stand" did nothing else,
> > > it showed that DS9 is also starting to take a somewhat longer view
> > > about how long major changes can be "allowed" to exist ... and that,
> > > by itself, is a strikingly good sign.
> >
> >
> > There have been a few multi-show episodes that attempted to do the same
> > thing, all with mixed results. I do agree that the, "A Time to Stand"
> > storyline does look promising, we shall see if it holds.
> >
>
> DS9 for the most part have done 2 parters. They tried to do multiple story
> arc about the Klingon-Cardassian war but the idea was nixed at the last
> minute. No Star Trek series has ever done a multiple story arc before.

What about, "The Circle" ???? 3, four episodes??

> >
> > How many billions of dollars have Paramount squeezed out of the Star
> > Trek franchise? It pains me that they could have not thrown a few more
> > gold pressed bars for A FEW more F/X shots. I think they spent it on
> > the "Call to Arms" show.
>
> Maybe there saving the money so when they "need a firework display" they
> will have one.

We will never see it. They have to service the stock holders.



> >
> > There was no other way for the "war" to have progressed. The Feds, even
> > without taking such massive losses could never retake the station in one
> > episode. And if they did, I would have turned off the TV.
>
> I guess you don't watch Voyager :-)


I do, and I am constantly amazed how some episodes touch the absolute
bottom where no one has gone before.


> > Now, with the Seventh fleet destroyed, I see it as HIGHLY unlikely that
> > the Feds will win, even when you factor in the loss of the K White
> > production facility. The minefield is far to tenuous a block against
> > the Dominion. The Feds should be sweating real hard by now.

> We have no idea how large the combine Dominion-Cardassian or
> Federation-Klingon Fleet is or where they are deployed. The Feds lost over
> a hundred ships but how many were low cost or obsolete Klingon warships;
> how large are there reservese (where the hell is the Enterprise-E) and how
> many ships did the Feds destroyed. If Feds bleeds the Dominion white
> (sorry for the pun) especially with the fact that their ship yards and
> Ketracel white storage center was destroy and with no hope of
> reinforcements in the near term, the Feds could win. What am I saying, the
> Feds will win. This is Star Trek (American Television sigh).

Yep, the Feds will win. (got a problem with American TV??? Why do all
the foreign countries watch it so much? Lets see another country put
out better movies or TV) (Ok, Ok, The Avengers in UK was the best spy
show ever. I will grant that) But the problem is that Starfleet took
massive losses at the hands of the DOM. How can Starfleet turn the tide
of war? A time to Stand has further cemented Starfleet's considerable
inferioriry to DOM technology. At this pace, the Feds will loose. I
submit that the war should have been close to a stalemate and then
degenerate to a war of attrision (sp?) Draged out and costly on both
sides.

Its a high contradiction to have DS9 fair so well with FED tech and then
have the Seventh Fleet wiped out in short order. There is no logic
there.

> > If the DOM does not break a hole in the minefield by episode 2, then the
> > credibility of the DOM forces will come into question (being stopped by
> > mines, surely they have encounted such devices before!) as to the
> > writers im afraid.

> They had 3 months to defeat these devices and they haven't gone anywhere.
> You also must remeber currently in Gul Dukat's best interest to keep the
> minefield up. The Dominion and the Feds will kill each other leaving the
> Cardassians to pick up the pieces.


Yes it is in Dukat's interest to keep it up, but why are the DOM ships
so inept at taking them out?

Weyon will catch on fast, if he has not already.

> Think: Cloaking Device

Last minute?? Sisko got the craft around a year ago and brought it
Starfleet fast.

Most of the time was probably spent of reverse engineering, and then
actual flight tests.

A year is not too long a time for that though.

Think: Pink.


John

George M. Chavis

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Mr. Castillo and Mr. Gallagher, (I think you're a "Mister"): :-)

I think you both missed my point. Okay, I will admit that the episode
did not mention the United States Constitution, but that was not what I was
getting at. My point was that the Dominion are NOT the Federation or Bajor,
therefore, why are you assuming that other races (outside the Federation) have


such "freedoms"--speech, religion and press? Where was it stated that the
Dominion was a Republic, governed by a Democracy (it's citizens having the right
to vote and governmental power vested by the people)? The Founders are colonial
dictators and rule by oppression/slavery (Jem'Hadar) and duress (Vorta).

And, more to the point, why would Jake ASSUME that a occupying military

force (Jem'Hadar/Cardassian) would respect ANY rights guaranteed by the group they
just vanquished (Federation)?

G. Chavis

Lasher

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in article
<616tmu$d...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...


> WARNING: "A Time to Stand"? Yes, but also a time to review --
> and thus, a time to spoil. For you, then, it might be time to skip this

> article unless you want spoilers.
>
> In brief: I didn't *love* it, but I definitely liked it a lot -- and it

> shows a nice trend.
>
> ======
> Written by: Ira Steven Behr & Hans Beimler
> Directed by: Allan Kroeker
> Brief summary: Three months into the Federation/Dominion war,
> Sisko takes a Jem'Hadar ship on a desperate mission.
> ======
>
> Wait a minute.
>
> Did I just see a season premiere which *didn't* essentially press the
> reset button on the previous cliffhanger? I did? Wow. What a
> pleasant notion. :-)
>
> In the final half or final third of its previous season, DS9 began to
> really weave many different threads together into a whole that, while
> not always consistent or seamless, was without a doubt interesting to
> watch and to speculate about. If "A Time to Stand" did nothing else,
> it showed that DS9 is also starting to take a somewhat longer view
> about how long major changes can be "allowed" to exist ... and that,
> by itself, is a strikingly good sign.

Well, lets not go rubbing our palms together in anticipation just yet.
Let's recap all the balls the writers are juggling:

1. Sisko and Co. and next week's sequel to "The Ship" (at least that's
what it looks like).
2. Kira's tightrope act with Dukat and Weyoun. It's already taken a
visible toll on her, but will it drive her to do something rash?
3. Odo's trickier tightrope act with Dukat and Weyoun. There's a very
good chance his relationship with Kira will sour before all this is over.
4. Jake's journalistic dilemma, and his personal safety.
5. Worf and Martok, wherever they are.
6. Quark's handling of the Dominion occupation (c'mon--he's almost
certainly going to have to choose sides at some point).
7. Rom: Starfleet Secret Service (I bet the Founders are sweating right
now).
8. Dukat becoming even more deluded and corrupted by power.
9. Oh yeah, almost forgot. The Klin/Federation/Cardassian/Dominion war.
:)
...And to a lesser degree...

10. Ziyal. How is she viewed by Bajor? Will Dukat take steps to bring
her back to him?
11. What about the Defiant? Is Worf commanding it now, or what?
12. What about Leeta? Come to think of it, who cares? :)

Rumor has it that the Dominion occupation will take last only six
episodes. Once Sisko gets DS9 back, just about all those balls will
disappear. This is enough juicy material to last an entire season, which
means something is almost certainly going to get thrown to the wayside.

"A Time To Stand" did a good job with continuity, and the inclusion of
Grandpa Sisko was an unexpected joy. But however good it is, I fear there
will be at least three plot points that will go unexamined by the time the
station changes hands again. My personal favorites are 2,3,4 and 6--I'm
betting that we won't see much develop in those areas at all. But I
*really* hope I'm wrong.

> but it also justifies the Federation's desperation, and also allows
> references to lots of destroyed ships without having to blow a
> season's worth of effects budget. :-)

I think the effects we got were okay. The opening scene with the whipped
Fed/Klin forces licking their wounds was an interesting counterpoint to
the closing scene of "A Call To Arms".

>
> As with any new approach, though, there were a few gaps in logic
> that left me scratching my head. In this case, the feel of "it's been
> three months" was broken a few times, which was jarring. For
> instance, Starfleet has had the Jem'Hadar ship of Sisko's for about a
> year now, but no one's ever tested the headsets to see if there are side

> effects, and no one's trained to fly it properly. Even given that it
> would have taken Starfleet time to get it operational, that feels like a

> reach. It's not completely implausible, but I think it needed to be
> justified.

Two words kept coming back to me while Sisko got acquainted with the
Jem'Hadar ship in two weeks: "Independence" and "Day". At least he
didn't use a Macintosh to fly it. :)

>Similarly, Quark's attempt to get the Jem'Hadar to loosen
> up is something that should have been tried rather early into the
> occupation, not three months in.

Actually, I'm surprised you didn't mention Quark's conversation with Kira
and Odo. "As occupations go, this isn't too bad." The same thing was
running through my mind, and it was something that needed to be said.
Maybe I'm biased, but I always enjoy it when Quark is being used for
something *other* than comic relief.

>
> On a character level, things haven't changed that much, with one
> exception: Bashir's genetic enhancement is now mentioned a great
> deal, and is very much in the forefront of his character. I'm not
> entirely sure I like that; as I said back when his background was first
> revealed, making him a superbeing was unnecessary to the plot at the
> time, and felt likely to spark a lot of distrust among the rest of the
> crew. So far, we've had a few bon mots about it from Garak (which
> were, of course, delightful), but there doesn't seem to be any sense
> that people resent it.

Actually, I don't mind that. I think it makes less sense for Bashir to
turn into a Vulcan/android overnight. His behavior changed dramatically
since "A Call To Arms", which was about five episodes too late. Garak was
the only thing that made Bashir's slide-ruling tolerable.

I agree with you. I don't think the writers know exactly what to do with
him. I actually think he would have benefited more as a character if he
were the one to have a relationship with Dax. Dax would probably benefit
as well. When was the last time we had a Trill episode?

>
> One scene did stand out, though. I was on the edge of my seat for
> the Kira/Dukat confrontation in his office, mostly because my skin
> had crawled there on its own.

I always thought Dukat was sinister, but this was the first time he
actually gave me the creeps. I think there's more going on than a power
trip; he's acting like he's losing his grip. Or maybe his longer hair
just makes him look crazy. :)

>In addition, the "whoops, the security net's
> up" followed by "whoops, the bomb blew early" both felt like
> artificially created crises to prevent the situation from resolving
itself
> cleanly.

I loved it! Nothing went according to plan. If this were a TNG episode,
they would have been halfway to the wormhole by the time the bomb exploded
and the Dominion would have surrendered. Plus, since the consequences of
these trip-ups sets up next weeks episode I think they deserve some extra
credit.

>
> Some shorter thoughts:
>
> -- Who has the Defiant now? Given Starfleet's desperate situation,
> they can't possibly be holding it in mothballs for Sisko's return.
> Who has it?

Please let it be Jellico...please let it be Jellico...please, please,
please...

>
> -- If Jake were really smart, he'd try to smuggle his stories out via
> Quark -- or better yet, talk to Odo and have Odo order Weyoun to
> release them. Jake's young enough that it'd certainly be
> understandable if he didn't, but I think either of those might be a
> savvy thing to try.

I prefer the Quark angle by far because it promises the most tension. If
Quark got caught, both his and Jake's heads would be in nooses, Odo would
bend over backwards to save them, Weyoun and Dukat's working relationship
would reach the breaking point, and all their lives would be in danger
from pissed-off Cardassians. It would be a tiny event that could cause
the atmosphere on DS9 to explode, if handled properly. I doubt it's going
to happen that way, but it would be nice. How many times has a tiny,
inoffensive chain of events resulted in catastrophe?

>
> -- Similarly, were I Kira I'd bring Odo along for my next meeting
> with Dukat, disguised as a padd or something. Odo certainly knows
> what Dukat's been up to, but having him intrude on Dukat's "private
> moment" might drive a little spike into Dukat's sense of superiority.
> Dukat certainly couldn't do anything about it; it'd drive Weyoun
> through the roof.

I like that idea a lot! I'd be surprised if Kira and Odo don't pull
something like that.

> "What do you think is going to happen here, Dukat? That you're
> going to wear me down with your charming personality? That I'm
> gonna be swept off my feet by that insincere smile? Are you really
> so deluded that you actually believe that we're going to have some
> sort of intimate relationship?"
> "Oh ... we already do."
> -- Kira and Dukat

The most chilling lines of the entire episode. Brrr.

--

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/=================================================\
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anything. 14% of all people know that!"
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\=================================================/
Lasher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> las...@netwave.net

Rocky Steinhaus

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

On Mon, 06 Oct 1997 19:44:14 GMT, Jatk...@NOSPAMix.netcom.com (Jason Atkinson)
wrote:

Good point.
The government she *wanted* would've been a theocracy.

But it's easy to assume that Kai Winn would've made it a fascism,
as well as an exclusive theocracy.

The theocracy would've been her vehicle...
She probably would've designed the new government to eliminate all
"feedback".
If that's "abnormal" for Bajor, then that would make her more of a fascist.

We don't know if Pre-Cardassian Bajor was exclusivly theocratic. AFIK.
The post-Cardassian government seemed to be a balance
of civil government, theocracy, military, and other powers.
(AFIK).

I personally want to believe that "normal" Bajoran government
would have been a balance of powers, not an exclusive theocracy.

And if a theocracy, one with a hierarchy that could officially
exert influence on the leader.


Changing back to the subject I was on originally... :)
I should hastily add that they used to have the caste system, so
that is one difference from Federation philosophy.
(A strike against my point of view).

Stephen Gallagher

unread,
Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to George M. Chavis

(SNIP)

> And, more to the point, why would Jake ASSUME that a occupying military
> force (Jem'Hadar/Cardassian) would respect ANY rights guaranteed by the group they
> just vanquished (Federation)?
>

Most likely due to his youth and inexperience, and probably as a bit of
a dig toward Weyoun and the Dominion (ie. That they are trying to represent
themselves as a friend, yet they censor the press.)

Stephen Gallagher

Stephen Gallagher

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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(snip)

>
> Yep, and I'd imagine Bajor had it's own respect for rights before
> the Cardassians, and probably would've revived it in almost any case.
> (Could Kai Winn have sold facism without "the Federation threat"?).
>
> I believe the Dominion treats DS9 as a Bajoran station. (Non-aggression, they
> aren't going to take the station from them).

Actually, Weyoun told Jake that it was a Cardassian station.
The Dominion does not view the Cardassians as "occupying"
the station, but rather that they have reclaimed what
was theirs.

Although, from what I remember from the series premiere, the
Cardies abandoned the station, it was not taken from them
by the Bajorans. Therefore the station is Bajoran property now.
Dukat (who was the prefect of Bajor during
the occupation), opposed the Cardassian government's
decision to leave Bajor and, that is why he has reclaimed
the station.

S. Gallagher

Stephen Gallagher

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to i...@cwru.edu

Ian McIntire wrote:

>
> Rocky Steinhaus wrote:
> > I believe the Dominion treats DS9 as a Bajoran station. (Non-aggression, they
> > aren't going to take the station from them). Bajor *welcomed* them to DS9.
> > Weyoun wants to impress Bajor and show the other Non-agression pact
> > signers there's nothing to worry about.
>
> That's one of the things I've been wondering about. Under Dominion law,
> who exactly is the legal possessor of the station?

Under Dominion law the station belongs to whomever the Founders
say it belongs to.

The Cardassians abandoned the station at the beginning of
the series, so as far as I would believe, the station
now belongs to the Bajorans. Dukat opposed Cardassia's
pull-out from Bajor and so in his mind, DS9, or should I
say Terok Nor, is still a Cardassian station.

The Bajorans and the Dominion have signed a non-aggression
treaty and I guess the Bajorans could say that the occupation
of the station by the Dominion could be viewed as an act
of aggression. Another act of aggression could also be the fact
that the station is located in Bajoran space and so, even if
the station is Cardassian (which I don't believe it is),
Bajor could tell them to get their butts out of Bajoran
space or they've committed an act of aggression. It's just
that the Bajorans have no real force to back up their statements.
Plus, they were told to stay out of the fighting by the
Emissary.

S. Gallagher

Steve

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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In article
<Pine.PMDF.3.91.97100...@HCCADB.HCC.HAWAII.EDU>,
cs_r...@HCCADB.HCC.HAWAII.EDU says...

>
>On 5 Oct 1997, Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
>
>> Some shorter thoughts:
>>
>> -- Who has the Defiant now? Given Starfleet's desperate situation,
>> they can't possibly be holding it in mothballs for Sisko's return.
>> Who has it?
>>
>Maybe during this time Worf is going to command the Defiant when
>the Borg come a calling (Star Trek: First Contact).

The Borg invasion occured already. Sisko once stated "Starfleet is spread
pretty thin due to the Borg attack" mid-season or so. Granted, this didn't
do justice to the movie, but at least we got something said.

remove-to-e-mail Mr Wolf

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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>gchavis <gch...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Now, if 17 years at Warp 7 (Sisko's stated speed heading into Dominion space) is reduced
>>to just a few days ("...give or take an hour or two,"), why are we lead to believe that
>>Voyager's crew will all be octogenarians (except Tuvok, Neelix and Dr. "Schmaltz") by
>>the time they complete their now 60 year journey back to the Alpha Quadrant? The way I
>>figure it, if 17 years at Warp 7 is but a few days, then 60 years at similar speed
>>should be but a few weeks!

ae...@u.washington.edu (M. Keane) wrote:
>This isn't a valid comparison.


Your absolutly right M. Keane.... the two figures cited by gchavis
have nothing to do with each other.

Voyager would not reach home for 65+ years with Warp 9 abilities if
they didn't make all the stops they make in every show.

Sisco and crew will take 17+ years because they only have an impulse
drive that does not allow FTL (warp) travel since the warp drive died
in the explosion they set off.

That comparison was tantamount to comparing someone walking across a
city like Las Vegas to someone flying at Mach II across the US and
saying that both travel at the same speed.

Without warp drive, those light years are no longer just some measure
of distance, they're also the number of years it will take them travel
that distance if they were able to travel at the speed of light.

And one more correction since you want to nit-pick....

An octogenarian is someone between 80 and 90. Since the original
time of them gettting home was 80 years and now they're 3 years closer
and Kes pushed them 10 years closer, that would mean the travel home
at this point would take at least 67 years if they didn't make any
more stops (very unlikely). Since Janeway, Chacotay, Paris, and most
of the crew are older than 23 they could not be octogenarians, even 7
of 9 will be older than 90 after 67 years.

Rocky Steinhaus

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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On Tue, 07 Oct 1997 06:41:25 -0400, Stephen Gallagher <gall...@istar.ca> wrote:

>(snip)
>>
>> Yep, and I'd imagine Bajor had it's own respect for rights before
>> the Cardassians, and probably would've revived it in almost any case.
>> (Could Kai Winn have sold facism without "the Federation threat"?).
>>

>> I believe the Dominion treats DS9 as a Bajoran station. (Non-aggression, they
>> aren't going to take the station from them).
>

>Actually, Weyoun told Jake that it was a Cardassian station.
>The Dominion does not view the Cardassians as "occupying"
>the station, but rather that they have reclaimed what
>was theirs.

Yep, but that's the spin he gave Jake, when he was trying to
bring Jake into line.

>Although, from what I remember from the series premiere, the
>Cardies abandoned the station, it was not taken from them
>by the Bajorans. Therefore the station is Bajoran property now.
>Dukat (who was the prefect of Bajor during
>the occupation), opposed the Cardassian government's
>decision to leave Bajor and, that is why he has reclaimed
>the station.
>
>S. Gallagher

Your memory serves you well.
Dukat wants it to be a Cardassian station, and Bajor a Cardassian planet.

But Wayoun promised Kira that the security, (and perhaps the management)
of the station would be a joint effort between the Dominion+Cardassians
and Bajor. The same situation as when the Federation shared the
administration of the situation with Bajor.

I'd suppose that Wayoun's spin to Kira is that the Dominion
is there to prevent the Federation from useing it.

Rocky Steinhaus

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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On Mon, 06 Oct 1997 14:14:43 -0400, Ian McIntire <i...@cwru.edu> wrote:

>Rocky Steinhaus wrote:
>> I believe the Dominion treats DS9 as a Bajoran station. (Non-aggression, they

>> aren't going to take the station from them). Bajor *welcomed* them to DS9.
>> Weyoun wants to impress Bajor and show the other Non-agression pact
>> signers there's nothing to worry about.
>
>That's one of the things I've been wondering about. Under Dominion law,
>who exactly is the legal possessor of the station?

IMHO, I don't think there is such a thing as Dominion law.
The Changelings decide things in the link.
They give orders, the Vorta decide how to implement them.
I don't think the founders give the solids the security of laws.

> Now, in light of the
>non-agression treaty they've signed with Bajor, one would think that
>they'd allow the Bajoran government to retain ownership. Kira's
>continued presence on the station supports this idea.

Or else the Romulans,Tholians and Mirodorn would get edgy.

>However, I can't help remembering Weyoun's line (ISTR it was in the
>scene with Jake) "This *is* a Cardassian station."

That's true... Weyoun did say that in the scene with Jake.
(But he was trying to convince Jake to knuckle under).

>It could be argued
>that Cardassia still retains ownership of the thing, and I don't see how
>Bajor could really effectively protest if the Dominion simply decided
>that.
>--
>Ian McIntire i...@cwru.edu

Those are some confounding points, alright.
Here's what I can get out of it:

Weyoun originally promised Kira that the security
on DS9... er... Terok Nor... er... ahem, the station
would be a shared effort of Bajor and Cardassia.

And it's likely that he gave her the spin of The Dominion
useing the station, and keeping it from the "misuse" of the
Federation.

Notice, though, the dynamic seems to have changed in 3 months.
It seems as if Wayoun is losing a lot of arguements to Dukat.

Dukat tells Wayoun: "The order *stands*".
While Wayoun is trying to calm and delay Kira, Dukat and Damar are
talking conspiraitorily behind his back.
Dukat takes his time to nod at Damar to follow Wayoun's
order to leave.

Wayoun is going beyond his weasely unctuosity*** and seems
to *persuade* Dukat (and Kira) on several points. The rest of the
time he's trying to assert authority over Dukat.
The only time he has his usual air of smug authority is when he's
talking to Jake.

Here's how I look at it...
3 months of fighting.
Weyoun : "We are, now. But in order to win the war with the
The Federation, we will need reinforcements and new supplies
of ketracel white. _Soon_."

If the white runs out, then the Jem'Haddar will, at best, go on a
suicide run against the Federation, leaving the fight to Cardassia.

Dukat knows this, and is at least pleased by the minefield problem.

But Kira knows that if Bajor squawks, or goes silent, the Romulans,
Tholians, and Miradorns might abrogate their treaty.
And at this time that would end the war abruptly.

Wayoun's solution is to bring in Odo. He smooths Kira, and asks
her to speak to Odo. Odo demands his security force and Wayoun
is eager to agree. (Dukat would assume it's the Vorta's alleged
reverence of the changelings). He further asks Odo to be the
third party on the station ruling council.

Odo's troops *hate* Cardassians.

Now Wayoun has a way to ensure that Dukat will stop to
think before acting obsessivly. He also has a good chance to stop
any starving Jem'Haddar form attacking. (Of course, being the senior
Vorta, heprobably has a few extra cannisters of white for his troops...).

Another other point about property:
Weyoun points out there are no Dominion troops on
Bajor (the planet proper).


*** No, I don't talk like that in real life. :)

Brendan Guy

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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Faruq Nelson wrote:

> Dukat is supposed to be the leader of the entire Cardasian Union, yet he
> is spending his time running the station. Does anyone else find that
> odd?

Dukat is busy directing a war, he is doubtlessly leaving the day to
day operations of Cardassia to the civilian bureaucracy. DS9 is closer
to the front lines and by directing the war from there, he makes it more
likely the Federation will attack here instead of at Cardassia. By
making his headquarters here he keeps both the Fed-Klingon forces and
the Dominion away from Cardassia, and he can personally keep an eye on
that minefield (making sure the Dominion doesn't get rid of it) There
are also undoubtedly personal reasons for being at DS9, it was where he
was driven away from and he feels like a triumphant conqueror having
returned to it in a way he would never feel being back at Cardassia or
even being at the head of a victorious Dominion fleet.

Brendan W. Guy

Shawn Hill

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:

: -- If Jake were really smart, he'd try to smuggle his stories out via

: Quark -- or better yet, talk to Odo and have Odo order Weyoun to
: release them. Jake's young enough that it'd certainly be
: understandable if he didn't, but I think either of those might be a
: savvy thing to try.

Or start sending out messages in a code Weyoun is unfamiliar with, but
that Sisko or someone in the Federation (SuperBashir?) could understand?
Is he a good enough writer to do a lot of "read between the lines" stuff?

: -- Similarly, were I Kira I'd bring Odo along for my next meeting

: with Dukat, disguised as a padd or something. Odo certainly knows
: what Dukat's been up to, but having him intrude on Dukat's "private
: moment" might drive a little spike into Dukat's sense of superiority.
: Dukat certainly couldn't do anything about it; it'd drive Weyoun
: through the roof.

That'd be a great idea (Odo uses his powers far too little, IMHO). And
thanks for not stigmatizing Weyoun too much in your review this time....I
think Jeffrey Coombs portrayal was amazing. I especially loved his
lightning quick/neurotic changes of expression, his imperial dismassal of
Dukat's lackey, and his "I wouldn't know" comment in response to Dukat's
leering appraisal of Kira.

I hated the Dukat might rape Kira scene; not that it was inappropo, just
that it was creepy.

: -- The one Worf/Martok scene was cute. Martok's insistence that
: Worf tell Dax what's been on his mind led to lots of speculation over
: the next few minutes: I think my favorite response to "You must tell
: her *now*" was "I'm not a complete man any more." :-)

To paraphrase Carmen of South Park, Martok "kicks ASS!!!"

: -- As contrived as the Sisko/Sisko scene was in some ways, the elder
: Sisko's question about why space wasn't big enough to let everyone
: leave each other alone was very pointed -- and very good.

I don't find all the contrivances that you do (or am not bothered about
them as much). Pere Sisko is a difficult old coot, and Sisko was busy
enough to justify avoiding him until Dax gave him a push.

: OVERALL: 8.5, I think; too many contrivances to be truly top-
: notch, but quite nice nonetheless.

It's the first (well, one of the few) episodes I've ever given a perfect
10. Thought it was so nice I watched it twice.

Shawn
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

"You're the one who grows distant
when I beckon you near"
----bjork

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
sh...@husc.harvard.edu Shawn Hill


Eric J. Anderson

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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Dennis Iannicca wrote:

Did Jake say "First Amendment"? (Just asking.)


> : would respect an ancient Earth document? And are we to understand that the U.S.
> : Constitution applies, 500 years later, to all that makes up the Federation?

Well...since the Constitution of the United States of America is one of the most brilliantly
conceived documents in this or any time in history, I can suspend disbelief long enough to
assume The Federation adopted many of its provisions for its own (hypothetical) constitution.

Eric

Roberto Castillo

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

After a long, hard day of battling the soulless minions of orthodoxy, I came
home just in time to see "George M. Chavis" <gch...@pica.army.mil> writing:

>Mr. Castillo and Mr. Gallagher, (I think you're a "Mister"): :-)
>
> I think you both missed my point. Okay, I will admit that the episode
>did not mention the United States Constitution, but that was not what I was
>getting at. My point was that the Dominion are NOT the Federation or Bajor,
>therefore, why are you assuming that other races (outside the Federation) have
>such "freedoms"--speech, religion and press?

I'm not. Jake is because he's young and naive. He's lived most of his life
in a society that is frequently described as a paradise and has always had
his father around to protect him. I agree with you that it's silly and naive
of Jake to invoke Federation rights and guarantees to a Dominion
representative but you yourself wrote in your original post that this sort
of naivete is not uncommon among Americans overseas. Apparently, it's not
uncommon among Fed citizens either.

> Where was it stated that the
>Dominion was a Republic, governed by a Democracy (it's citizens having the right
>to vote and governmental power vested by the people)? The Founders are colonial
>dictators and rule by oppression/slavery (Jem'Hadar) and duress (Vorta).
>

> And, more to the point, why would Jake ASSUME that a occupying military
>force (Jem'Hadar/Cardassian) would respect ANY rights guaranteed by the group they
>just vanquished (Federation)?

Maybe he's still in denial? Maybe he didn't realize that the Dominion which
rules through force, deceit, and fear would interfere with a journalist?
This kind of tunnel vision isn't uncommon today and there is no reason to
believe that it will be any scarcer in the future.

--

"I am First Omet'iklan, and I am dead. As of this moment, we are all
dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly, for
we are Jem'Hadar. Remember, victory is life."
-- Omet'iklan

"I am Chief Miles Edward O'Brien. I'm very much alive, and I intend
to *stay* that way."
-- O'Brien


"I'm worried about Bart. Today, he's sucking people's blood,
tommorrow he might be smoking."
-Marge Simpson

Roberto Castillo
University of Illinois at Chicago
E-Mail: rca...@uic.edu
http://www2.uic.edu/~rcasti1/rcasti1.html

Faruq Nelson

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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ANich74630 wrote:

> Even so, we can assume that Dukat is the military governer of the station.

Dukat is supposed to be the leader of the entire Cardasian Union, yet he


is spending his time running the station. Does anyone else find that
odd?

_____

Faruq abd ul-Rafi (R. A. Nelson)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Department of Philosophy
fa...@uiuc.edu, http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/faruq

Simon H. Lee

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
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In article <3439ED...@uiuc.edu>, Faruq Nelson <fa...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>ANich74630 wrote:
>
>> Even so, we can assume that Dukat is the military governer of the
station.
>
>Dukat is supposed to be the leader of the entire Cardasian Union, yet he
>is spending his time running the station. Does anyone else find that
>odd?

Well, we haven't really seen his minute-by-minute workday. He
might spend time arguing with Weyoun and taunting Kira and sitting in
Sisko's office, but the latter two are old habits and the former fits in
with the situation--he's probably giving out mundane orders to his various
underlings in the Cardassian government the rest of the time.

--
__________<*>___A L L D O N E ! B Y E B Y E !___(-o-)_____________
| __ |
| (__ * _ _ _ _ Joke: Seven lemmings walked into a bar... |
| __)|| | |(_)| \ Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. |
|_________________________________________________________________________|

Pete...@hotmail.com

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97
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In article <01bcd2b2$d7a41e40$4084...@lasher.netwave.net>,

"Lasher" <las...@netwave.net> wrote:
>
> > "What do you think is going to happen here, Dukat? That you're
> > going to wear me down with your charming personality? That I'm
> > gonna be swept off my feet by that insincere smile? Are you really
> > so deluded that you actually believe that we're going to have some
> > sort of intimate relationship?"
> > "Oh ... we already do."
> > -- Kira and Dukat
>
> The most chilling lines of the entire episode. Brrr.
>

No doubt, but it seemed to me that Dukat was not displaying his usual
chilling charisma, which is usually manifests itself when he is toying
with someone. Also, the makeup seemed wrong in subtle ways I can't quite
put my finger on, except that his hair was longer. Was this portrayal of
Dukat intentional, to show the corruption of power and the strain of
being a Dominion puppet, or were Marc Alaimo, the makeup artist, and the
director just having a bad day?

Peter

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

George M. Chavis

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Oct 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/9/97
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No, that was my snafu; but it was implied! He only said to Wayeon,
"What about freedom of the press?" I assumed the First Amendment,
because why else would a Human mention "freedom of the press" if such
a freedom was not born from our Bill of Rights?!?

G. Chavis

ger...@mail.dec.com

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Oct 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/9/97
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In article <34387B...@hotmail.com>,
john1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Bart Gerardi wrote:
> > The DOM could probably break the minefield from the Alpha
> > Quadrant side without much difficulty. They could also probably
> > break it in open space, too.
>
> Then why dont they??

Well, maybe they're afraid that their supply of ships is getting low
and they can't risk losing that many in an attempt. Maybe Dukat has
Weyoun snowed about his ability to disable them. Maybe they don't
know the extent of the minefield, and don't know how hard it would be
to
disable. Maybe, as the wormhole is nearly out of range from the
station
(I think?) they would need a lot of ships for the operation, and then
even more for protection. Maybe, maybe...


> However this does not explain why DOM ships under Weyon's control
cannot
> clear a path on thier own. Weyon is too smart for that. And they
will
> come to blows (Dukat and Weyon) over that subject. It will be
> interesting.
>

I agree, they probably will. Maybe Weyoun doesn't want to be openly
distrustful of Dukat just yet. (going ahead and working on the mines
while
Dukat says he has it under control...)

> > Well, first, they're is no saying that they tested it on a human.
>
> Are not Human's in the majority in Starfleet? I'm sure they would
not
> have picked an Andorian.

I think Humans are like less than 1/4 of Starfleet, no? Earth is
only one planet, and there are hundreds of planets in Starfleet.


> Sisko developed side effects fast enough. Surely the test pilot
noted
> something to that effect (as required in a test flight, to note any
> physiological effects)
>

Did he? How long a trip was it to the border? Hours? Days? Do we
even know?
I would think it would be in the order of days, I would hate to think
they were
doing some top secret experiments that close to the border.

> > Perhaps the side affects only come from travelling at
> > high speeds, which they didn't do. ...
>
> How do you know? A test flight would have to include a high speed
run
> to test out the systems under stress.
>

Well, maybe they didn't go Warp 7, or much past Warp 1. Perhaps that
would
alert the DOM to the presence of the ship.

MOJO

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Oct 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/11/97
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On Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:02:50 -0600, Pete...@hotmail.com wrote:

>In article <01bcd2b2$d7a41e40$4084...@lasher.netwave.net>,
> "Lasher" <las...@netwave.net> wrote:
>>

>> > "What do you think is going to happen here, Dukat? That you're
>> > going to wear me down with your charming personality? That I'm
>> > gonna be swept off my feet by that insincere smile? Are you really
>> > so deluded that you actually believe that we're going to have some
>> > sort of intimate relationship?"
>> > "Oh ... we already do."
>> > -- Kira and Dukat
>>
>> The most chilling lines of the entire episode. Brrr.
>>
>

>No doubt, but it seemed to me that Dukat was not displaying his usual
>chilling charisma, which is usually manifests itself when he is toying
>with someone. Also, the makeup seemed wrong in subtle ways I can't quite
>put my finger on, except that his hair was longer. Was this portrayal of
>Dukat intentional, to show the corruption of power and the strain of
>being a Dominion puppet, or were Marc Alaimo, the makeup artist, and the
>director just having a bad day?
>
>Peter
>

>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

----------------------------------------------
. . . I was waiting for someone else to notice how much Dukat's makeup
has changed (for the worse). Here in Oz, the last video tape
available was 'Ties of Blood and Water'. I noticed that his makeup
looked dreadful. He looked sort of old and scraggy.

My first thought was that they'd got a new makeup artist (who
definately needs a LOT more practice). But, after reading some of the
recent posts about how horribly out of character Dukat's been acting,
I'm begining to wonder if it isn't the writers' and producers' way of
making him a little less popular (especially keeping in mind that
Dukat is very popular with female Trekkers ;-) ), to engender more
sympathy for the Feds and their allies.

Regards,

MOJO
<Begin gratuitous self promotion mode>
Don't forget to check out my glorious web page:
'The Klingon Cultural Attache'
http://www.southwest.com.au/~christian/INDEX.html
<End gratuitous self-promotion mode>

The Sword

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Oct 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/12/97
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Jason Atkinson <Jatk...@NOSPAMix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<34393e9e...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...


> On 6 Oct 1997 17:24:43 GMT, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) wrote:
>
>
> >Just to pick a nit -- the Dominion, as far as we know, is a republic --
it
> >is not a monarchy nor any kind of a rule by a selected few. There were
at
> >least hundreds if not thousands of Founders. I actually think there is
a lot
> >of parallel between the Dominion and the Roman Republic -- the Roman
Republic
> >ruled a lot of places through clients, and Dukat/Cardassia fit that
model quite
> >well.
> >>
>

> The Founders themselves are probably a variation on the collective
> idea, though with much more individualism then races like the Borg.
> Everyone else is ruled through fear, so I would not compare the
> Dominion as a whole to a republic.
>

The Dominion is a Republic in the classical definition. A republic is
*rule* by a small group over a larger whole. In our modern world that's
come to mean rule by politics and popular opinion rather than fiat, but
still rule by a minority over the majority. Our own President--I'm
assuming you're an American--is elected not by the people, but by an
electoral college which doesn't necessarily have to agree with the "will of
the people", or the election returns. In fact, America's Founders--I find
the term more than a little ironic in the context of our discussion
:)--purposefully designed the system that way so that if the "people's"
will didn't correspond to what the Founders thought it ought to be, they
could nullify the people's choice.
And do it legally!! [That has never happened, and perhaps it never will,
but it's sobering to know just how precarious our freedom really is. And
how little it would take for us to loose it all.]
In a Democracy, all *citizens* vote regardless of status. That describes
the US of the 20th century, but it doesn't describe the US of the 18th.
And it certainly doesn't describe the Dominion.

The Sword
--
A man who reads may change himself.
A man who writes will change the world.


wat...@cableinet.net

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Oct 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/12/97
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 05:47:03 GMT, inksl...@FOGsunshine.net (Maureen
Goldman) wrote:


>If Dukat's makeup has changed, then perhaps something generally is
>happening with the appearance of Cardassians. When I saw Garak on
>that planet's surface with Nog, I thought he looked like
>Frankenstein's monster..
>
You just have never saw him in full daylight before...<g>

W.


dro...@mocten.moc

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Oct 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/12/97
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In article <01bcd6df$e3bb8660$ef0f2399@1default>,

You are correct on everything concerning the Dominion... but, just for the
record, the USofA is officially a Democratic Republic, where the few who
lead (the Republic part) are chosen by the many (the Democratic part).

Now, people.. please back to the topic.

--
Glenn Lamb - dro...@mocten.moc, Email address reversed to munge
spam email scanners. Reverse before mailing.
Finger that address for my PGP Key.
PGPprint = E3 0F DE CC 94 72 D1 1A 2D 2E A9 08 6B A0 CD 82

Helen Rapozo

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Oct 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/12/97
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Maureen Goldman wrote:

> > On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 05:47:03 GMT, inksl...@FOGsunshine.net (Maureen
> > Goldman) wrote:
> >
> > >If Dukat's makeup has changed, then perhaps something generally is
> > >happening with the appearance of Cardassians. When I saw Garak on
> > >that planet's surface with Nog, I thought he looked like
> > >Frankenstein's monster..
>

> > >wat...@cableinet.net wrote:
>
> > You just have never saw him in full daylight before...<g>
>

> That also occurred to me. We seldom see any of them outdoors.
>
Dukat been outdoors. Remember the time he and Kira was trying
to check on the ship that had his daughter held captive by the
Brill (I think that was them).

>
> Sometimes I wonder whether Jake has ever experienced weather - I can
> envision someone raised on a ship or station panicking at his\her
> first experience of rain.
>
Jake had worse. A caveren came down around him and he was shot at
by Klingons.


Honolulu Community College Ph#: (808) 845-9202
874 Dillingham Blvd FAX#: (808) 845-9173
Honolulu, HI 96817 cs_r...@hccadb.hcc.hawaii.edu

My designation is -1 of 10, prepare to be....ahh shoots I forgot my lines.

Timothy W. Lynch

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Oct 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/12/97
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fi...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Eric C West) writes:
>In article <616tmu$d...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, Timothy W. Lynch wrote:

[on Kira/Dukat]

>I almost wasn't going to mention this when I found out that Cronan felt the
>same way, but I was incredibly annoyed by this scene. One thing that
>worried me about "By Inferno's Light" last season (other than the fact
>that the Dominion's inexplicable decision to keep Bashir alive was really
>the only thing that kept them from conquering the Alpha Quadrant in one
>blow) was the possibility that Dukat's character would regress, making him
>a one-dimensional villain. This scene seems to confirm that regression.

I agree with the concern, but not with your assessment of the scene.
Dukat's always been one who can justify almost anything with the right
flowery phrases, and his conversation with Kira wasn't that different
from other conversations he's had about the future of Cardassia. As
for his ... attentions ... towards Kira, they've been there for ages,
and the fact that he now has the power to back them up *should* seem
very villainous. It felt quite Dukat-like to me, and quite chilling.

>(2) Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember anyone mentioning any effects
>of Sisko's "sabotage" of DS9 as he left the station. Were they really able
>to get everything up and running in a short period of time?

Three months is a while -- and it *is* a Cardassian station, so if
anyone knows how to repair it it'd be the Cardassians. I would've
liked a mention of the repairs, too, but it's a minor issue in the
grand scheme of things, I think.

Tim Lynch

Timothy W. Lynch

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Oct 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/12/97
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sh...@fas.harvard.edu (Shawn Hill) writes:

>thanks for not stigmatizing Weyoun too much in your review this time....I

I don't think I really "stigmatize" anyone. When someone's a positive
contribution to the show, I say so; when it seems they're bringing the
episode down, I say so. What's stigmatizing about that?

In the case of "A Time to Stand", Weyoun's shifty nature was very
effective in showing the situation.

Tim Lynch


Shawn Hill

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Oct 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/14/97
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Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
: sh...@fas.harvard.edu (Shawn Hill) writes:

: >thanks for not stigmatizing Weyoun too much in your review this time....I

: I don't think I really "stigmatize" anyone. When someone's a positive
: contribution to the show, I say so; when it seems they're bringing the
: episode down, I say so. What's stigmatizing about that?

A difference of opinion, obviously, see below.

: In the case of "A Time to Stand", Weyoun's shifty nature was very


: effective in showing the situation.

But I've found Weyoun wonderfully effective in his EVERY appearance,
whereas I remember some severe criticism of his very presence by you in
the past. It seems to me that he's grown on you....ie, it's not he or
Combs performance that has changed, but your appreciation for same.

C. AZIZ

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Oct 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/15/97
to

>My first thought was that they'd got a new makeup artist (who
>definately needs a LOT more practice). But, after reading some of the
>recent posts about how horribly out of character Dukat's been acting,
>I'm begining to wonder if it isn't the writers' and producers' way of
>making him a little less popular (especially keeping in mind that
>Dukat is very popular with female Trekkers ;-) ), to engender more
>sympathy for the Feds and their allies.
>
>Regards,
>
>MOJO
><Begin gratuitous self promotion mode>
>Don't forget to check out my glorious web page:
>'The Klingon Cultural Attache'
>http://www.southwest.com.au/~christian/INDEX.html
><End gratuitous self-promotion mode>

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Perhaps the change in Dukat's make up is a subtle hint from the
writers that he isn't the real Dukat. Shapeshifters have been
known to infiltrate DS9 before and not be detected.
_________
Entropy2

John Archambeault

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Oct 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/17/97
to

>the people", or the election returns. In fact, America's Founders--I find
>the term more than a little ironic in the context of our discussion
>:)--purposefully designed the system that way so that if the "people's"
>will didn't correspond to what the Founders thought it ought to be, they
>could nullify the people's choice.
> And do it legally!! [That has never happened, and perhaps it never
>will, but it's sobering to know just how precarious our freedom really is.
>And how little it would take for us to loose it all.]

FYI: It was done once. I forget which President. Here's the story. George
Washington gets ALL the electoral college votes. 20+ years later (something
like that) another President-to-be wins enough ofthe people's vote to win all
the votes required for the electoral college to vote, but one of the electoral
delegates (right term?) decided that GW should be the only person to get ALL the
electoral votes, so he threw his either away, or for the other candidate,
knowing full well what the outcome would be.

Just showing I paid attention in American Hist. :)

--
John Archambeault

.

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Nov 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/20/97
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In article <343601...@hotmail.com>, John <john1...@hotmail.com>
writes

Recently I finally got the first part of the opening six-part story "A
Time to stand".

I don`t have much to add to the past discussions about this episode
except the three points I will mention later. I mainly want to tell Mr.
Wolfe and - shame on me, now I forgot the name of the other author who
reads and participated here! - how much I am looking forward to the
other parts. I am also hoping that there will be more mini arcs within
DS9, especially if there will be indeed a seventh season.


>
>> On a character level, things haven't changed that much, with one
>> exception: Bashir's genetic enhancement is now mentioned a great
>> deal, and is very much in the forefront of his character. I'm not
>> entirely sure I like that; as I said back when his background was first
>> revealed, making him a superbeing was unnecessary to the plot at the
>> time, and felt likely to spark a lot of distrust among the rest of the
>> crew. So far, we've had a few bon mots about it from Garak (which
>> were, of course, delightful), but there doesn't seem to be any sense
>> that people resent it. Perhaps in a perfect Federation society, they
>> wouldn't ... but DS9's strength for years has been its distinct *lack*
>> of perfection. Granted, this sort of followup is definitely better than
>> none (and is in some ways more than I expected), but it felt a little off
>> in spots to me. (I'm not sure the staff really knows what they want
>> to do with Bashir; certainly, he's been tossed around as a companion
>> for everyone from Garak to O'Brien to Jake, and who Bashir
>> *himself* is has only come up once or twice a season at best.)
>
>Or perhaps, Sisko and company (including Kira) dont really care. The
>doctor has proven his compassion and steadfastness numerous times. He
>has proven that he has no hidden agenda other than his medical
>research. Like a best friend or a blood relative, when they hurt you
>(to a high degree) they should be forgiven at least once. After all,
>how does Bashir's genetic enhancements hurt the crew? His parents are
>paying the price, as too is Bashir in his own way.
>
>Sisko and company most likely feel that they can look beyond the doctors
>"secret" and accept him even more as one of thier own.
>
>Now, if Bashir had been found out in the first season, the crew would
>not have been so kind.
>

I think that "Dr. Bashir, I presume" is one of the best episodes I have
ever seen in Star Trek. Also, it made Dr. Bashir much more interesting.

Now that I have seen "A Time to Stand" I am surprised that so many
people complained about him being "too Vulcan" or that "he knows too
much".

All officers on the Defiant were exhausted, frustrated and scared,
something I can understand very well. I think Julian even suffered more
just because of his enhancements. Even with his abilities he couldn`t do
anything to stop this war and with his abilities it was more obvious to
him than to anybody else on board how bad their chances really were.

And in spite of this, he certainly hadn`t lost his sense of humor. I
find this remarkable.

Being able to do math in your head instead of having to rely on
computers doesn`t make him an all knowing being. For example you need
much more than being good at math for being the Captain of a starship.

I am glad that Julians abilities are now used throughout the series!

>
>I liked Kira's "haggard" and "lost" look. It portrayed powerful
>emotions without her saying a word.
>

Yes, I noticed that as well. I think all the people who had been
complaining that Kira is getting watered down (something I never did)
should be pleased.

Was it me or was it due to the bad quality of my copy - when I first saw
Nana Visitor I was startled. She looked skinny to me as if she had lost
quite a lot of weight in the meantime. I preferred the more healthy
looking Kira of the past season.

>
>Also consider the powerful emotional element involved. Father and son.
>How often are adult sons made into children before thier elder fathers?
>I dare say the percentage is rather high.
>
>But Sisko HAD to tell him. He was being reassigned off the powerfull
>Defiant, and to and unknown mission. With unforseen danger.
>
>If Sisko had not contacted his father (who is perfectly cast BTW) at the
>time hid did (waiting for his new assignement) then Sisko would risk
>being killed on that mission and never telling him the things that
>needed to be said.
>

Right. I also think that the scene with Sisko`s father was very good and
appropriate.

BUT why are the authors so obsessed with father figures? I also see this
in Babylon 5 where Sheridan talks to his father and is worried about him
but his mother is hardly mentioned. Sisko has a mother (at least I never
learned that she is dead) and he has a sister. Why weren`t they at least
mentioned?

Baerbel Haddrell

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